Living Catholic with Father Don Wolf
Father Don Wolf, a priest of the Archdiocese of Oklahoma City, offers a Catholic perspective on the issues confronting each person today.
Living Catholic with Father Don Wolf
"Smoke Signals: Awaiting Peter's Successor" | May 4, 2025
In this episode, Father Don Wolf reflects on the nature of papal conclaves and how cardinals discern who will lead the Church forward, acknowledging both the human limitations and divine guidance in this process. He also shares his own humbling experience of incorrectly predicting that Cardinal Ratzinger would not become pope after John Paul II's death.
• The cardinals who elect the pope are ordinary men with human strengths and weaknesses through whom the Holy Spirit works
• Consumer society has disconnected various aspects of life, making it difficult for many to see how faith connects to daily choices
• The Church needs a leader who can both proclaim the gospel and manage effectively, beyond simplistic "liberal vs conservative" framings
• Different leadership styles (decisive command vs. consensus building) serve different needs, like Colonel Chamberlain at Gettysburg versus General Eisenhower leading the Allied forces
• The true significance of a papal election often becomes clear only centuries later, as few could have predicted how John Paul II's Polish background would impact the Cold War
• Our role is to pray for the guidance of the Holy Spirit and prepare ourselves to follow where the new pope leads
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Father Don Wolf is a priest of the Archdiocese of Oklahoma City. Living Catholic also broadcasts on Oklahoma Catholic Radio several times per week, with new episodes airing every Sunday.
This is Living Catholic with Father Don Wolfe. This show deals with living the Catholic faith in our time, discovering God's presence in our lives and finding hope in His Word. And now your host, father Don Wolfe.
Speaker 2:Welcome Oklahoma to Living Catholic. I'm Father Don Wolfe, pastor of the Parish of Sacred Heart in Oklahoma City and the rector of the Shrine of Blessed Stanley Rother, and with all that's been in the news lately, we all know that the papal conclave will begin soon, upon the death and the funeral of Pope Francis. None of us know how long it'll last or what the final decision will be, other than there will be a new pope elected. In the infrastructure of my thoughts, there's a necessary time lag between when these reflections are written and recorded, and so, by the time that you hear this, all concerns about who and what may all be settled. But as I go through this, the future is inscrutable to me, to all of us, as it always is, and I have to say I have no insight about who the cardinals may choose to be the new pope. Not being part of the intimacy of the cardinal, I have no idea what they think of each other or what issues or concerns most occupy their minds as they gather to elect a new pope. There's no shortage of opinions, of course, just as in any election, and most pundits are at least as well informed as I, or at least suffer from the same limitations as I, which is to say that no one should come to me with an expectation that I have some good inside information about who the next pope will be. But most opinion makers are as equally clueless as I, although they're paid a lot more than I am to make guesses and to talk about them in public.
Speaker 2:When Pope John Paul II died, there was a great scramble among the members of the media to make some sort of guess concerning who the new pope might be. With my friends here in Oklahoma, I was as interested in reading the tea leaves as anyone else, so there was a lot of conversation about who would be a good candidate All the while. Through those conversations I knew I didn't know, and this was highlighted when the conclave was assembled and the cardinals were meeting. Each hour brought an additional report about who might be ahead or who was being left behind in the voting in the Sistine Chapel. No one was allowed in, of course, and all the news concerning what was happening was pure speculation, so everything I had to say about it to anyone was equally as speculative.
Speaker 2:At that time I was at the Princeton School of Theology just beginning lunch when the news came that white smoke was billowing out of the chimney and wafting over St Peter's Square, a new pope had been elected. This was the occasion of a meeting I was attending as part of the pastoral theologian project that the school was hosting that I was a part of. All of my associates in the project were Protestants, so they all came to me to ask me who the new pope would be, and I gave the one answer I was sure of In response to every inquiry, including the one as lunch began. I told them I was sure the new pope would not be Cardinal Ratzinger. He'd been a polarizing figure in the John Paul II administration and it would be unlikely for the cardinals to choose someone who had been such a high-profile disciplinarian. His nickname was the Panzer Cardinal, for a reason, after all. Of course, we all know what happened. No sooner were the words out of my mouth with all of the conviction I could muster, and we all know that when the whole world turns to you as an expert, there's nothing so pleasing as giving your opinion to those who are lapping up every word. The words were just out of my mouth when the news came that it was Joseph Ratzinger who'd been elected as the new pope. So so much for my expertise and my notion of myself, and I don't remember any of my colleagues asking me any more questions concerning Catholic protocol and hierarchy after that. You know how it goes no humility without humiliation. It was a lesson in modesty. I don't know anything about what the cardinals are thinking as they enter the conclave and size each other up and ask themselves who the new pope should be.
Speaker 2:Cardinal Dolan was quoted as saying that the Holy Spirit has already selected the new pope. It's the job of the cardinals to listen to who the selection will be. I kind of like that attitude. It does echo the humility of the participants. Their job isn't to come in and run for the job or politic about their favorite candidate. Their number one concern must be to pray and open themselves to the work of the Spirit in their midst. They are, after all, the ones making the decision. His comment is a solid reminder of what's at stake as well as what has to remain the first priority.
Speaker 2:However, on the other hand, there is the notion that somehow the selection process is more angelic than human, and that certainly is not the case. However, the spirit is at work in this gathering. It is at work among men who have the same penchant for weaknesses and prejudices, and vanities and shortcomings, and talents and interests as any other group of men. The specifics of those attributes might be different for this group of churchmen compared to, say, a gathering of an equal number of members of the Knights of Columbus who are gathering to decide on their budget for the coming year. But that group of cardinals who make this decision, that we imagine they are somehow separate from the foibles and challenges of mankind is just false. The Spirit has to work with the material at hand.
Speaker 2:In this case, the Spirit has to animate the cardinals who are there and are tasked with electing the Pope, and I can guarantee you they are not all of one mind. That is to say, they all understand that this work has fallen to them and they are the electors, which is not a secret or a mystery to them. It's one of the responsibilities they say yes to when they are awarded the rank of cardinal. But they don't all see the world the same way or evaluate the future in the same manner. There'll be no small differences of opinion among them as they begin to talk with one another about what the church needs in its new leader. Not only that, there's no guarantee that they evaluate each other's strengths and weaknesses in the same way. But one cleric regards as clarity and strength, another might regard as rigidity and closed-mindedness. One cardinal might be celebrated for his innovative successes while at the same time be scolded for not being attentive to traditional ways. What remains a mystery to me is not that the cardinals are of different mind and have different opinions. The true mystery is what they make of each other and what they know of the life and ministry of one another. When they gather, what does each think of the other? I have no real idea. So what will happen as they come to the conclave?
Speaker 2:The first preoccupation, of course, is their concern about the direction of the church. From the rise of militant Islam in the East to the hollowed-out consumer societies of the West, the church faces enormous challenges. I imagine the cardinals from the first world countries are most concerned about the lack of practice and general disinterest among their own people, whether they have a solution in mind for the problems they see every day. They want to see a pope who understands the conundrum of Western life. That's my concern. It's a concern that touches my life in every part of my ministry. Of course, I live as a citizen of the West and the history of the rise of consumer society is my own history.
Speaker 2:The challenge strikes me between the eyes every time I try to speak to anyone about any aspect of the life of faith in the encounter with Christ. And it's not just that people have money and therefore don't care about God. In fact, consumer society isn't just about money. It's about the disconnection of the tendrils of human society in favor of other values, especially money, but not exclusively. I run into this whenever I talk to young people about sex, for example. They have almost no idea of sexual behavior as a connecting experience that binds the various aspects of humanity together. It's not uncommon, for example, for a young person to talk to me about growing spiritually and becoming more interested in the life of the faith and growing in prayer, while at the same time expressing profound surprise that living with his or her partner for years without any measure of commitment or blessing might be a spiritual problem For them. Those things aren't connected, they just don't add up. So that's what the first world cardinals will be concerned about.
Speaker 2:Secondly, they'll be trying to reinforce the church's responsibility to lead the world, not just to respond to what's happening. The gospel is God's initiative to the world after all, not simply a band-aid for its wounds or an alternative to the world's crises. Without a vision, the people perish. The church's vision for a humanity renewed by the promise of forgiveness and redemption is larger than an agenda prompted by solving problems or plugging leaks. The reputation of the Vatican Curia is that they think in terms of centuries rather than in terms of the next election, like so many other organizations. That reputation, I think, might be vastly overblown, since the Curia is, after all, just made up of people, as in any other group. But the challenge of remaining focused on the central message of the Church salvation and redemption is central. The next pope will have to proclaim, not just manage. He'll have to preach, not just pacify.
Speaker 2:And thirdly, there aren't two sides to the concerns of the church or the politics of leadership. The press invites us to think in terms of liberal and conservative or the trope of left and right. Those are all convenient shorthand terms for having us think in stark ways, but they're not very helpful. Not that there aren't liberal and conservative positions among the cardinals or that there aren't left-leaning and right-leaning points of view. It's just that this political shorthand isn't very good at describing the concerns of the men who are gathered for this election. To quote Sam Donaldson from an interview more than 30 years ago, he said most people want journalists to describe both sides of a story, but every journalist in the world knows there aren't two sides to a story, there are 27 sides to a story. When it comes to the challenges of Christian persecution in the world, or the falling away of belief in God, or the debasement of the human person, or the blasé acceptance of murder of the unborn and the demonic hatred of spiritual sexuality, or the trillions of dollars bled out of our budgets for arms, among those, among a hundred other issues facing every human society today, the trope of liberal conservative seems about as useful as purple and green to describe which category a cardinal might be in.
Speaker 2:I've often thought that the dynamics involved in making such a selection wouldn't be all that different than if the priests of Oklahoma got together to select a leader for the church among us here. I've used this comparison before when it comes to the finance council. When we finish a council meeting and we're trying to tidy up our decisions, I remind everyone that what we've gone through to decide on how to spend, say, $10,000 isn't really much different than a committee in Congress deliberating about how to spend $10 billion. The conversation is the same, only the figures are different. So it would be as if we were comparing a diocesan meeting to a papal conclave. If, therefore, we were to come to the pastoral center and try to decide on who should lead us, all manner of personalities in history would be involved. We'd all know each other, at least by reputation and by some admittedly facile interactions, and we would sincerely try to compare what we thought we needed in the church with what the men we know could bring to it. And we'd know two other things. One is that there's no perfect candidate. We'd be electing a person, not an angel. And secondly, when we got together, we'd know that there'd be only a couple of real candidates. Not everyone would be qualified or ready to become a leader of the whole church here. In truth, as we gathered, we'd all know there'd be about four real candidates, and the discussion would center around those candidates and their strengths and weaknesses, not the possibility inherent in each person in the group.
Speaker 2:The cardinals will be doing the same, as they all gather. All of them will be trying to discern what kind of leadership will be the most important. As important as the actual vision for the future will also be the style of leader the new pope will be. All of us have known those people who have a good head for problem-solving and communicating but who are brusque and alienating. In times of crisis, when a ship is sinking or during an attack, or when a company is facing bankruptcy, that kind of person is an invaluable leader. There's no substitute for being able to give commands and hold people's feet to the fire. Plus, in times of disequilibrium, giving commands with certainty and with unbending clarity is important, even if the commands are not necessarily optimal. This type of leader might be the very best in battle when everyone is depending on the leader to rally the troops and survive an attack. So when Colonel Joshua Chamberlain at Gettysburg saved the Union line because he was brave, incisive, clear and quick.
Speaker 2:But that kind of leadership style, when trying to motivate an organization where subordinate leaders are being rallied toward a common goal, that kind of brusque and decisive leadership might be disastrous. If you're trying to organize everyone around a common vision and a common agenda, even if everyone is committed to the same goals, it's important to consult and invite and define and move slowly. In addition, decisions have to be open-ended, even if disciplinary, since there's never simply an option for leaving someone behind because of a disagreement or growing tension. Consensus building is as important as decisiveness, a wide vision as important as a clear focus, and patience as important as promptitude. General Eisenhower couldn't walk into his headquarters and begin barking at all of his commanders at once and then expect them to give him good advice and careful evaluation. He had to win their obedience, not simply command it. But Joshua Chamberlain was trying to save the Union line between 2 pm and 6 pm from the attack of one division. The Union position there at Gettysburg would have come undone there and then, and the Battle of Gettysburg would have looked pretty different on July 3, 1863. And it may have changed the outcome of the war, or maybe not. But Joshua Chamberlain's command style worked that day and he rode out the rest of the Civil War as a competent officer and eventually a general. General Eisenhower kept the Allied coalition in Europe together for three years and brought the combined assets and resources of almost 30 countries together to win the war against the Nazis. Colonel Chamberlain exercised his leadership for an afternoon. Eisenhower's leadership was exercised over a thousand afternoons and brought the entire allied cause to victory.
Speaker 2:There is a place for different styles of leadership and different ways of seeing and understanding the world. So many of the commentators about the next pope seem to have in mind a notion of the first style of leadership rather than the world. So many of the commentators about the next pope seem to have in mind a notion of the first style of leadership rather than the second. They're very concerned that Pope Francis wasn't decisive enough or clear enough or active enough. At the same time, they criticize him for the times when he was decisive and straightforward and they didn't like his clear, incisive, deliberate actions, which is pretty much how it always goes. The only thing we want is just what we don't have, which is another way to say what we want is everything.
Speaker 2:Again, I have no idea what the cardinals are thinking, other than no one gets to have everything, even in the realm of the leadership of the church. Another factor is that, as they're sizing each other up and wondering who will be able to lead during the coming years, they only know each other up to a certain extent. With modern communications and modern travel, it's possible that they know more of the world than most people. After all cardinals do get around and they're usually very connected to the network of leadership and personalities in the church, but they don't know each other exhaustively. Interestingly, most of the third world cardinals know the first world better than the first world cardinals know the third world. That isn't particular to the cardinalate. Think of somebody that you know from Ghana or Nigeria or Thailand here in the US. They know a lot more about us than we know about them, no matter if they're the CEO of a company or just a roofing carpenter.
Speaker 2:Among the cardinals it's the same way, which means they'll be trying to look below the surface of personality and get to the heart of the man. But they'll also be responding to what gifts or charisms that one person can bring to the needs and challenges of the church in our day. And since everyone is a mixture of strengths and weaknesses, they'll be balancing what they know of those strengths and weaknesses as they imagine the candidates to the papal office, and they'll be listening to the promptings of the Holy Spirit. That can sound maddeningly vague, since the Holy Spirit can be at work among the failures of imagination and decision-making as well as among their successes, but each of the prelates will be attuning his soul to the outpouring of the Spirit among them. As the vote is taken, they'll have to ask themselves not just what they see of the church and what attributes and characteristics are present among the ones they elect, but what God's will is for the whole church.
Speaker 2:Beyond the personal and the structural, there's the animation of the Spirit that has accompanied the Church since the days of Pentecost. It shouldn't be discounted. When Carol Votiva was elected to become John Paul II, no one in the conclave was thinking that a Slavic pope from Eastern Europe would be in the perfect position to broker an end to the Cold War without battle or revolution. And yet in 1989, when the Berlin Wall came down, and in 1991, when the Soviet Union came apart, there was a Slavic pope in the office of Peter, someone who had been raised under Nazi occupation and then grew to maturity amid the Soviet control of his portion of the continent. Only the spirit could have gained such a foothold amid the powers of this world. No one from the KGB or the CIA had anticipated or foretold such a moment. And yet when it came, the Church stood at the forefront of the energy to facilitate the downfall and to pick up the pieces when the wheels came off of the evil empire.
Speaker 2:Pope Benedict said that only sometimes does the Spirit become involved in the day-to-day working of the church, but that's not the same as saying the Spirit isn't at work there. Every cardinal will be praying to discern the work of God amid the choices available to them. Who knows what lies in store for the church in the years to come? Finally, it's safe to say no one will know the real import of the election until centuries from now. This isn't to avoid responsibility for the choices made and the policies and initiatives that are to follow from it, but it is a reminder that our temptation is that of the right now, completely untampered by the reality of the world as it is. The fast-paced media and the breathless energies propelling every aspect of life never leaves anyone time to appreciate the long term. We think we have the last say in every aspect of our time and place. In truth, we're usually the last to be able to see what's really happening and what real currents are running through our lives. Often we only see what was actually going on among us when we have the chance to look back over the centuries and become aware of the hidden and the obscure.
Speaker 2:When I was with the National Federation of Priest Councils, for example. From 1997 to 2000, I used to give talks all over the country about the state of the priesthood. I described the difficulties the church was experiencing around the world and how those concerns affected our priesthood here in the US, and I always mentioned a particular concern of mine, one that I had become aware of through my reading of history, and that was a resurgent militant Islam. Whenever I mentioned it, nobody paid the slightest attention and I was never once asked about it or asked to explain why I thought it would be a concern for evangelization. Nor was I asked to provide any context for living the faith in our age. It was simply of no concern to anyone. A few years after I got off the circuit, 9-11 happened. Suddenly. Everyone was interested in the Muslim Brotherhood, the call to jihad and the growing presence of anti-Western Islamicists all over the world. Looking from 9-11 backwards, everyone could see all of the information and connect all the dots, but while we were living them, most people had no idea what was blindingly obvious about our world in 1998, when looking at it from the perspective of 2005, was hidden to those who were living it.
Speaker 2:When it comes to what we're aware of and what we need to provide for. The world is always this way. We're always striving to understand the truth of our lives and the intricacies of how we're getting along. The cardinals aren't provided with crystal balls and time machines. They have to do their best to grapple with their understanding of the world as they have it. What lies beneath may be a great surprise to them, although it's more likely to be more clear a hundred years from now, I suspect. For example, much of Pope Francis's pontificate was incomprehensible to those who didn't see what he saw when he looked at the future. He may be more understood a hundred years from now than he is today, or maybe not. There are no guarantees about these things. Maybe it'll be clearer 500 years from now than today.
Speaker 2:Our work is to pray and to listen. The whole church is led by the Pope. We should dispose ourselves to invoke the presence of the Spirit of God and then prepare ourselves to follow Back in just a moment. Back in just a moment. Welcome back to our final segment Faith in Verse.
Speaker 2:We have a poem today called so Much, so much we need is given so easily. We hardly notice how it comes our way. Leisure is granted to us most feasibly as the logical product of every day. But of course we don't feel it. So as we hurry from one thing to another, time rushes past in ceaseless river's flow. We slow down. Neither for sister nor brother Our grandparents knew how to be free in their twice-bothered and much-harried lives. They had time to approach on bended knee and appreciate hope when it arrived. We could hope as well, we together as the children of our place and time, if the sum of days and life's meanings were severed so that full happiness and great peace could rhyme. That's so much. We all depend upon the work of the Spirit among us in our lives. Let us attune ourselves in this moment to the work of the Spirit of God to animate our lives.
Speaker 1:Living Catholic is a production of the Archdiocese of Oklahoma City for Oklahoma Catholic Radio. To learn more, visit okcrorg.