Adam Posner - Traversing Career Pitfalls & Embracing New Beginnings

Embark on a captivating journey with me, Darren Mass, accompanied by the brilliant Adam Posner, founder of NHP Talent Group and podcasting maven. Together, we unravel the complex tapestry of entrepreneurship and the podcast universe, providing an intimate look into the resilience born from career setbacks. Adam's candid retellings from his exit from VaynerMedia fuels our discussion on the transformative nature of adversity, revealing the unexpected doors that swing wide open when one chapter closes.

As we traverse the peaks and valleys of our professional lives, we reflect on the crucial crossroads where career shifts and toxic work environments intersect. I share the story of my "V-day," the unexpected turn in my career trajectory that reshaped my future, underscoring the power of knowing your value and the opportunities that arise when you harness your innate abilities. Adam and I delve into the intricate dynamics of workplace culture, the significance of strong onboarding experiences, and how nurturing one's skills can illuminate the path to success in unexpected industries like recruiting.

The episode culminates with sage advice for navigating the tumultuous seas of business endeavors and personal growth. Through tales of entrepreneurial passion and the strategic savvy that comes with it, we stress the importance of adapting, the art of the handwritten note, and the value of a personal board of advisors. Listeners will walk away with a renewed sense of purpose and an arsenal of strategies for sailing the shifting waters of their careers, fueled by the perseverance and authenticity that define a successful podcast and its host.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Alright, so Adam Posner, that's my name Are you okay with being recorded on a podcast?

Speaker 2: 0:05

So you're asking me for consent? Yeah.

Speaker 1: 0:09

I am. Well, there goes that liability. This is I Took a Hike. I'm your host, darren Mass, founder of Business Therapy Group and Parktime Wilderness Philosopher. Here we step out of the boardrooms and home offices and into the great outdoors where the hustle of entrepreneurship meets the rustle of nature. In this episode, we reflect along an energetic trail with Adam Posner, a successful podcaster and the founder of NHP Talent Group. Our topics include learning from the greats. Culture is uniquely personal, popping back up when you fall down and plan your work and work your plan. Listen on as we discover what was the fuel and the fire that created a desire to start a venture on his own. When I took a hike with Adam Posner.

Speaker 2: 1:03

You know what, as a podcaster man who's done a number of shows for a number of years, I really enjoy when the tables are turned.

Speaker 1: 1:10

That is a good intro to who you are. You are a podcaster. You are also an entrepreneur. I think, by being a podcaster, that puts you in the entrepreneurial category.

Speaker 2: 1:18

Yes and no. Be creative, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:20

Well, it's a business, there's cost, there's revenue, eventually, hopefully, and you are also a business owner. You own a recruiting business in Web 3. And Web 2. And Web 2, the second web, we'll just call it, the OG web?

Speaker 2: 1:34

What happened to Web 1? You mean the AOL Prodigy when you made your money?

Speaker 1: 1:39

No, no, I'm not that old. I wish I made money during that. I am 43. I'm 44.

Speaker 2: 1:46

So look at that, you actually have one year to a flop point.

Speaker 1: 1:51

So you're the elder statesman, so maybe I'll learn a few things from you, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:55

I'm not a believer in age being like a indicator of who you can learn from and can't. If you get that bias out of the way, everything opens up.

Speaker 1: 2:03

Well, so you, I think more so than ever, you were absolutely right. There are kids today that can own us, school us on social media.

Speaker 2: 2:11

I spent the first 15 years of my career social media and, like you, think I'd learn a thing or two. No, I'm the fucking plumber with the broken toilet. The problem is trying to get all the shit done by yourself Figuring out where to outsource, how do you scale, how to keep focused on the business, how do you grow. It's hard, but I would never look back at going corporate. I say that now. The economy's not doing great and my business as a recruiter is contingent on the economy. If there's no jobs, no entiring, very simple, they don't need me at all. So I need to find ways to diversify income.

Speaker 1: 2:50

So where do you start? How is an experienced individual like you going to future proof the challenges that we are about to face, especially with the economy, because it's not getting better?

Speaker 2: 3:03

On this day, the 26th of 27th, 27th of October? That's a real question, my friend. If I didn't have the podcast, I'd be worried Nothing nothing, so the podcast is your screen. It's my brand, it's your brand. So while there's not recruiting opportunities right now, what am I doing? It's helping down on sponsorship, trying to leverage those opportunities. Where could it happen? Min talks with an airline for a potential partnership to do recruitment marketing podcast for them to attract talent. So basically it would be a round table with employees saying why they love working there, like an authentic, not like bullshit can responses and you don't even think about it. You're like, wow, companies are looking for authentic ways to connect. Podcasts are a way to do that. So it's not an avatorial, it's not a canned video that you're doing. And that's when the light bulb went off. I'm saying I'm good at what I do, I'm a great interviewer. Let's market my other skills.

Speaker 1: 4:01

That's right. So I think there's a good lesson in there for anyone that is trying to discover themselves is learn what you're great at and really go down that road, embellish upon it and don't be afraid to admit your talents. So you're good at what you do. I would agree with that. I've listened to your podcast, I've watched it. I do believe you're good. Your personality is sharp, you're spot on, you ask good questions and, most of all, you are fearless with your conversation.

Speaker 2: 4:27

I think this goes back to my I'm sure you did your research my journey real quick for your listeners. Born and raised in New Yorker, first 15 years in my career working in advertising and marketing in New York Agencies, brands, account management strategy Last stop before pivoting into recruiting, working for Gary V at VaynerMedia. Thought it was a holy grail. Grass was good. On the other side it wasn't. I got Mean Girled Ooh, mean Girled. I did not know how to handle it. I got canned seven months in Me and Gary are boys and he's like listen, I love you. Other people do Not. The right place Wasn't for me and I was like fuck, 35 years old. I just moved to the place that I'm bragging about to everyone and my mother. This is before Gary V is Gary V fully, and I thought it was my forever job and now I'm like shit. Now what?

Speaker 1: 5:16

This episode is sponsored by Business Therapy Group. Are you feeling lost along the winding trails of your business journey, searching for guidance to spark your entrepreneurial ambitions? Look no further. At Business Therapy Group, we're here to help you navigate the challenges and guide you to business and professional success. Book your session with me at businesstherapygroupcom to break free from the entanglement of employees, processes and growth. Take action now and book your first session Now. What you got?

Speaker 2: 5:48

angry. Now what the hell am I going to do? Angry? It was the lowest point. It was the lowest fucking point. You're not the first person I'm telling this story to, but it resonates in the context of what you're asking, because on the way out, gary says we sat for an hour. You need to stop focusing on your weaknesses and double down on your strengths. And it sounds like you would be finding in the middle of a fucking fortune cookie. Right? Gary just says man who cannot focus on weaknesses should focus on strengths. Well, thanks, gary. If you get the fuck out, you're fired. No, he meant it. And we sat there and we talked about what I'm good at, which is this, and listening, real listening, like active listening and understanding the market. And he's like well, if you could do anything but this, like what do you think you could do? Like I'm like well, I'm not going to be an astronaut. And he did like oh, what do you mean? I'm going to shut up. You did his Gary thing.

Speaker 1: 6:34

Yeah, like you're not going to be an astronaut. Well, you won't, because you said you won't.

Speaker 2: 6:37

Right and he was like what can you really do? I was like, well, I have a friend who does healthcare recruiting and another friend who does finance recruiting. Before I could finish my sentence he goes you'll be a great fucking recruiter. He's like, oh my God, he's like you could make more money. You're uncapped, you're limited. And I took that and I went to the bar next door. I'm not even telling you you drank your sentence.

Speaker 1: 6:59

Well, it was so cliche.

Speaker 2: 7:00

It was first and funniest thing about that story. It was April 1st, so it's April Fool's Day. Wait, you got canned on April 1st. So I called my V-day. It's my V-day. April 1st is my V-day. I'm coming up on my ninth one, this year Wait, wait there had to be a moment where you were like, ha ha ha, funny, no, no, no, listen, anybody who's getting fired. If you don't know you're getting fired, you lack complete self-awareness. Yes, obviously there's the outliers of shitty companies, shitty situations. You know if you're not doing your job, but you know if you're having conversations about your performance. Right, like, come on, Like, have a little self-awareness.

Speaker 1: 7:30

I want to pause you on that for a second. This is absolutely true. Yeah Right, salespeople is black and white, so I have rarely, if ever, seen a salesperson cry about being fired.

Speaker 2: 7:41

They knew it was coming to the room. I didn't mind my number, sorry guys.

Speaker 1: 7:43

You know like I get it, but if you're blindsiding someone else on the service side or an employee and they're crying in shock, then you did a horrible job as a manager. To get them to realize their performance needed a little bit of support from you. Nobody should be surprised that they're getting let go.

Speaker 2: 8:02

Now looking back on it, eight years later, even a day later, I was never surprised. I was not set up for success. The company was immature in their life cycle right Three years and they didn't have the support that they needed to hire on board. Anybody in account management knows in the agency world, usually when you get hired you're placed onto an account. Adam, we are hiring you for the Pepsi account. They hired me so fast that they didn't have an account, so the first three weeks I'm floating between accounts they don't know where to put me. Like you know, they're shuffling me around. No one's onboarding me properly. So, I was never set up for success. So long story short, I find myself on an account with a lady that's two years junior to me, who's very eager and aspirational on her journey, and I came in and I was immediately viewed as a threat because I'm trying to assimilate into the organization, wedge my foot in in conversations, get in with the client, figure shit out right. They took that as a threat and then they mean girl to shit out of me to the point where I couldn't take it anymore and I probably said some things I shouldn't have.

Speaker 1: 8:59

Okay, so pause for a second on that. So there is another good point Onboarding a new employee is so critical to building culture and starting that employee off on the right foot, as well as the rest of the organization. Any change can lead to fear in a company. You will see your existing employees boost up when, when fresh blood, new meat, enters right. They're going to want to impress, but you want to harness all of that positive energy by doing a proper onboarding.

Speaker 2: 9:26

Can't wait to talk about this?

Speaker 1: 9:27

Or else what happens is the exact situation you became the little pup in an organization and people really want it to gun for you.

Speaker 2: 9:35

Yeah, and you know what's so interesting too in this light bulb just went off on my head. Onboarding you could have the best hiring process in the world, but if you fuck up onboarding, that is the worst taste. That's like going on a date and the first date sucks. It's just not. It doesn't align.

Speaker 1: 9:50

You can't build that initial chemistry. No, it's absolutely terrible. Like you and me, we're on a first date here.

Speaker 2: 9:54

Yeah, we're building good rapport. You're working me out.

Speaker 1: 9:57

I'm hopeful we can meet for Starbucks later. So let's go back to Mean Girls, because I think we've all seen that movie. So you were Gretchen's.

Speaker 2: 10:09

Not particularly because I'm not a confrontational person. I think I was defensive and when I'm back into a corner I'm going to defend myself.

Speaker 1: 10:16

Clearly type A person. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 10:19

But then it turned into basically high school bullshit and no one in the company took care of it and at that point it was over. Okay, Right. And then the hallway people were like look at me, you know, it was like shitty.

Speaker 1: 10:30

It was like I was like fuck this so adults can act like children all the time. Now I'm called adults, Would you say.

Speaker 2: 10:37

These are mid to late twenties professionals that I have 15 years senior on, and you were the old guard Well, 10 years senior at that point, right, and I was the old man in the room. Like we just moved out to the burbs. I was commuting every day and here's the crazy thing about Vayner. In the early days it was Lord of the Flies, aaron Lord of the Flies, and the only people that had seats guaranteed were the creatives and the project managers, and then the C suite right, the other offices, everyone else. If you were not in by a certain time, you'd have to sit on the fucking floor. So imagine, shitty March day, mixed precipitation, I'm wet, I'm cold, I'm tired. Just sat on the long out railroad I walk over to Vayner because at that time there's no train where there's no train going across midtown like that, and I'm like where'd I put my jacket?

Speaker 1: 11:30

What do I do?

Speaker 2: 11:31

And it's like what's the game? The kids play Musical chairs and they pull a chair away and there's no chairs left.

Speaker 1: 11:35

That's what it was. So that would be the toxic culture. So you come in and you have to sit on the floor and I'm like I just commuted.

Speaker 2: 11:40

I'm 30. I'm an adult male with a child, and now I'm coming to an office and I have to sit on a floor to work. Did you speak up? No, no, no, everyone did this Right. It wasn't like me, the only one, it was like 40 people. All right, so these are your inner thoughts. Yeah, I mean, yeah, these are my inner monologues. So there's a grass isn't always greener. On the other side, vayner is the hot shop in town. You think like, oh my God, my forever job. I love Gary, I idolized him and I got and I had great exposure. Listen, those seven months, our man, like I did bizdev with Gary, I was on calls with him, I got to see him pitch. I sat in a room with Steven Ross, related properties, hudson Yards, the owner of the fucking Miami dolphins Like where else do you get that kind of exposure? Yep, where else do you get to do that? This is a great trail, by the way. This is a phenomenal trail. It's beautiful, absolutely a beautiful trail. So long story short, vayner. Vayner wasn't it. And I gotta tell you something, and I've talked about this before, but I enjoy talking about it so I left Vayner April 1st 2015. I didn't start my first day in recruiting until July, mid-july 2015.

Speaker 1: 12:49

And that was an insane process. So a little bit of a gap.

Speaker 2: 12:52

First I had to come to Jesus moment Like all right, am I going to stop right here after 15 years of investing time, effort into a career and pivot. Okay, that's the first one. I got to get my head around that. And then, holy shit, I'm going to have to start a new industry, learn it and start at the bottom of the totem pole. Fucking rookie day. One shit, right, like to wrap my head around that was. I call that my self-awareness epiphany.

Speaker 1: 13:16

We went through some sort of internal existential as well, I guess crisis.

Speaker 2: 13:23

It was the hardest moment of my professional life.

Speaker 1: 13:27

Depression, anxiety, OCD, all the cliches.

Speaker 2: 13:29

Well, let's talk about that.

Speaker 1: 13:31

I talk about it openly. I talk about having ADHD and all the fun that comes with it.

Speaker 2: 13:35

I definitely have a bit of that not diagnosed. Oh, you definitely have it.

Speaker 1: 13:38

Definitely have that, I can tell just by the way that we're having this conversation. It's your high energy and we switch. I do the same thing Now if you're with someone else that has it, it is a complete understanding. But sometimes this could be what my old employees used to say was my squirrel moment. I'd be having a conversation with you and just like the squirrel from up or the dog from up chasing a squirrel, you're like whoop, there we go.

Speaker 2: 14:05

And you expected everyone to follow the story, right, but it's also hard for two podcasters to have a conversation. But I'm not even trying to pat myself on the back here. I'm trying to make a very conscious effort of not trying to reach over and grab the wheel while you're driving.

Speaker 1: 14:21

And don't worry, because I am an active listener and this is my job as the host is to listen to your success journey, and I'll interject every once in a while.

Speaker 2: 14:32

What do we got here?

Speaker 1: 14:33

Black walnuts.

Speaker 2: 14:35

What do we do with?

Speaker 1: 14:35

these. Where are those acorns?

Speaker 2: 14:36

Should we roast them? No, it's a black walnut.

Speaker 1: 14:38

That's a piece of pear shit. No, it's like If there's a bear in this wood then I'd be shocked.

Speaker 2: 14:45

So you're a worldly man, a renaissance man, a man who knows a thing or two about a few things. So are you familiar with the gentleman by the name of Navin Jean?

Speaker 1: 14:53

I've heard that name, yes.

Speaker 2: 14:54

Viome. He's gone through his fair share of controversy, but anyway, long story long, I had him on my show a couple of weeks ago. He takes a ton of moonshots, certified billionaire, and he's talking about global warming. And he said how audacious are we as humans? You know, 90% of global warming actually comes from volcanoes, from carbon dioxide, from the trees and everything and just general decay, and we're responsible for only 10% of it. How audacious do we think we are? So we're trying to change this 10%. What if we start to think about changing the 90%? And he said listen, I'm not saying we stick vents in all the fucking volcanoes and reroute the carbon monoxide and capture the trees, but how do we think? The Earth's space, the space over the Earth, around the Earth? Right, we have. How many satellites do you think we have up there? Maybe close to a million. We have a billion satellites up there coming to the Earth. Correct me if I'm wrong. We have the ability right now to pretty much map the entire world at all times, almost real time. We do Right, right, so why can't we see hot spots in the rainforest and use drone technology to somehow put out these fires that aren't going to spread to wildfires and contribute to global warming, versus fighting on fossil fuels, when you know, in greenwashing, when people don't even realize that it takes more fossil fuels to create the batteries and the elements in the electric cars than it does for gasoline, and where do you think they're getting the power from? Anyway, the point that I was trying to make that resonated with that story said the long way is how we start to think about problems versus solutions. And like that conversation as a podcaster really got me it was a week ago how do I think differently? What's going on in my career right now with the market and putting more effort into my core asset, which is my podcast recruitment? I could turn over every stone, but if no one's hiring, there's no demand. That's right.

Speaker 1: 16:38

You did a simple supply demand curve right. So that's where, as a business owner or an entrepreneur, you need to be very in tune with the car back on track.

Speaker 2: 16:46

Here we go. Right very in tune with pivots. But is entrepreneur mindset something you're born with 100%?

Speaker 1: 16:54

you are.

Speaker 2: 16:54

I've always been an entrepreneur. Yes, so have I. I did this program in high school called Deca. You might have heard I was selling ski goggles in high school. For this Deca program I won the state finals. I went out to the country. I came in second in the country, so I always had it, that's entrepreneurial. Maybe it took till I was 35, instead of working for the man, to go out on my own.

Speaker 1: 17:14

No, so I will correct you on this. You needed working for the man to get the best education you will have ever gotten. You got in front of one of arguably the most influential figures in our time, currently in the marketing world. I can call him right now.

Speaker 2: 17:27

Well, not, but yeah Right, hey, get him on the show, let's go. Hey, gary, you want to face time in? That would be a great addition to the show. He's been on three times on my show.

Speaker 1: 17:35

But you got a great education. I did the same thing. I had my first little entrepreneurial spark when I was nine, created a little micro business. Failed, tried again, failed, tried again in college, failed, Then finally tried again after I had multiple years of working for a large corporate establishment, gaining valuable knowledge on what it's like Inside baseball man, yes, like you have to learn from the pros.

Speaker 2: 18:01

So think about this for a second. Going back to what we were talking about onboarding If I didn't get onboarded at American Express, sirius XM, three different ad agencies I wouldn't know, as a recruiter, what's good or bad. Amex, world class, world class that you offer. Success, of course, being in media fail. There's an in between.

Speaker 1: 18:21

But I think it's not off brand for the style that Gary has portrayed to match that on par with his onboarding and culture process internally. In fact it took a while. I would say that that's probably pretty spot on being true to who his brand represents. If you're the last person in the office, you don't get a seat. Well, guess what? You're the last person in the office. So people have asked him this on interviews. Was that a?

Speaker 2: 18:48

psychological experiment. He was like no, we were just growing so fast, we don't have a space and they're waiting to go into Hudson York. Ok, honest, but I could also see that by design.

Speaker 1: 18:59

And that's where we can lead into. You have a culture by default or by design.

Speaker 2: 19:02

Interesting. Right In his case it was a culture by default Right. Versus Netflix.

Speaker 1: 19:07

By design or Zappos. Unfortunately, Tony Shea is no longer with us. That was a culture by design and it was all about employee first. So culture is an interesting word.

Speaker 2: 19:19

I don't define culture as ping pong tables, coal brew on tap, especially the fact that the majority of us are remote hybrid Yep. Culture is how you feel. You feel valued, you have a clear career path in front of you, feedback, you feel like you're contributing. That's culture to me. Do people treat you fair? I don't think I could have looked at any better this is hard for us. Yeah, you're on an incline.

Speaker 1: 19:46

You are climbing about 50, 60 feet of elevation in about 150 feet of span. So let's pivot. Talk to me about your success journey so far. What do you feel as an entrepreneur?

Speaker 2: 19:58

At this moment. Right now, I am consumed with fear because my financial gas tank is running out empty. I think a lot of people feel that's a big deal.

Speaker 1: 20:05

I think a lot of people feel that same way.

Speaker 2: 20:07

And I need to be able to park that to focus on I, on the prize which is being top of mind seeds planted when the storm passes. They're calling me first and that's what I've been doing the last four months, five months, luckily for me. In the last few days I figured it out in a responsible way, in a low risk way, and we'll leave it at that. So I took a deep breath this morning when I decided it was today. I made the move to take care of finances and get me to where I need to go. That is going to take this weight off my chest. Worse, in this hike that will enable me to spend the next what do we call it? Eight weeks of the year, focused, laser, focused plan, holding people accountable who have told me things that they want to do in a professional manner. So I entered 2024 like a mother fucking ninja. Some of them will see me coming hopefully not, because that's not what ninjas do.

Speaker 1: 21:20

Ninjas are known for their silence.

Speaker 2: 21:21

Right, their stealth Right. So some people will see me coming and actually you know what? I don't think that's a bad thing because that means I've planted seeds the right way and I've resonated enough to them where, when they're ready to hire, I'm going to be the first person that they call. So like recruiting. Sometimes you're a farmer, you're planting seeds, you're watering them, you're waiting for them to grow. Sometimes you're a fisherman You're throwing the net out there, trying to see what's out there, and you're hauling it in. You're throwing a big troller net and sometimes you fall down and you get back up. You just proved the play right there and you have to be. You fall down. Are you embarrassed, by the way? No, no, you fall down. Good, why are you not embarrassed? Because it's not a big deal, exactly. I'm going to take a little bit of a whole sound. Thank you I did bend my wrist a little bit, but I'll be OK.

Speaker 1: 22:08

Well, you did sign a liability waiver, but that's a great point. I teach my kids this. I teach every one of my clients this.

Speaker 2: 22:14

No, I just let them leave on a decline. It's not like I'm walking on a flat surface like a dick.

Speaker 1: 22:18

So now you take it from a pro or someone who has more.

Speaker 2: 22:22

You sidestep it. You sidestep down when it's rough terrain. That's exactly right.

Speaker 1: 22:26

Instead of going forward. So I want to rewind us for a second, but there's one last piece there.

Speaker 2: 22:30

Sometimes you've got to be a sharpshooter and laser focused on the target you want. So many facets. So back to the story at hand.

Speaker 1: 22:39

I want to rewind us, because you mentioned that money is finite, and I will wholeheartedly disagree with you on that. Money is infinite. It's a resource that you can make more of. If you are in tune, wise enough and have the efforts invested in the right direction, you can get a job, absolutely you. You're an intelligent human being. You are very successful. You've had a lot of successful ventures. That's why you're on the show. You are a business achiever. You are inspirational. You could absolutely say hey, LinkedIn world, I am ready to work for you. You will find money. You will make more of it. You can always create more money. Now, yes, there are lots of people that don't have that skill set, that opportunity and different conversation we're having, but if you are in tune, just like you could always find more water, at least on the East Coast you can find more money If you dig far enough.

Speaker 2: 23:33

And it's an interesting point too, because I would say that if you have the skills and ability right now I work for myself that means I could pretty much take those skills and work for an organization. You're going to eat a big slice of humble pie. You're going to give a percent to the house. That's all temporary, sure. And I agree with you Money. When I interview all these billionaires and successful people, the common thread when I ask them about money because I love to Like I asked Navin Jean about money and he says Gary Vee about money, and he says money is the fuel to my options. Money is the fuel to my options. Money enables me to do things, not talking about buying a house and cars and hookers and blow which you could get a lot of billions of dollars. But we're not talking about that. What we're talking about is options to build, to grow, so for me money checks off don'ts, they don't have to worry about. Right, you're taking my family's, taking care of All these my people are taking care of. I don't have to worry about what's next and but for me that's a real scare and it drives fear, uncertainty and doubt. Yeah, my fud factor. It's a fud factor I'm very familiar. Oh, look at this incline.

Speaker 1: 24:44

That on that tree is what's known as a burl, the URL, the ball sack. Yeah, pretty much it is a knotted growth. Speaking of ball, sack.

Speaker 2: 24:52

I'd like to thank our sponsor. Manscaped real serious Check out. Check out their ultra pro 5. That's out right now. Manscape comm. Use promo code poscast for 20% off and free shipping.

Speaker 1: 25:03

Wow, that was shameless. I.

Speaker 2: 25:08

Mean. I see a boss, a shaved ball sack on a tree. It seems like a logical plug. Well, we have my little Howard Stern influence which we could get to.

Speaker 1: 25:14

Howard is arguably not arguably is definitively the best interviewer of all times. Sorry, larry King, you're no longer around.

Speaker 2: 25:21

Larry never prepped. Howard does a shitload of prep.

Speaker 1: 25:23

Yes, and Howard has earned the right to cut anybody off because what he has to say is more interesting.

Speaker 2: 25:29

There's no better interviewer and that's how I kind of guide my Casting style. So back to ball sacks on trees, darren, back to you.

Speaker 1: 25:41

So we can move fast. That because I after that, how could I top that? Although if you do find Burlwood and it's falling down, it is very worthwhile. You can generate a lot of return on that.

Speaker 2: 25:52

It's a rare wood.

Speaker 1: 25:53

Extremely, you don't want to chop it down, but it is down to ready tens of thousands of dollars. Hmm, so they're Burlwood hunters out there. There was a show called Burlwood.

Speaker 2: 26:03

Hunter. We killed in the ratings.

Speaker 1: 26:05

It actually did I think it was on for several seasons.

Speaker 2: 26:08

So you know it's funny. You go back to success and my wife keeps reminding this. She's like you have done shit. I'm an all of you. I'm an all of what you've built. She's like I can't do what you did. You built a brand, you built a podcast. You've done 300. You haven't missed it in a week. I'm not trying to flex her in your show, but like she reminds me my successes because I'm pretty humble, I don't like to like. You built the business arm gathering, oozing humility, generated, generated like, if you put it together, decent amount of money in the last few years by yourself.

Speaker 1: 26:38

Yes, right.

Speaker 2: 26:39

You've tenacity is my other tattoo right here.

Speaker 1: 26:42

But you're your wife, whereas we have to call each other significant others these days or partner partner. I think it's the that's her being impressed by you, motivating you, boosted you, and then no greater feeling in the world than when you find the right partner to do such.

Speaker 2: 26:56

And I'm equally impressed with her. And when I got fired here's what happened that day, because it's pretty critical I left Vayner was around, we'll call it early mid-morning 11 ish and I called her. She didn't believe me. She thought I was joking. Well, april Fool's right, exactly and. She's like come up to my office and she worked like three or four blocks away on Madison, like really close. It was really crazy. Actually we commute together and everything and I was like wait a minute, make a stop first. She's like wire. And obviously in New York City there's a bar open at 11, 58, 10, 58 in the morning. Yep and I went in black horse. Um, it might have been one of those. Yeah, like the shamrock on the front Irish New York cliche bar and there was a cliche, three old men at the bar drinking. Which is bartender on, you know, like weird news channel, and I did what I did. It was a rainy, cold April day and I sat at the bar before noon and I had myself a Scotcher too, and it was great. And then I went up to her office, we shut the door and I cried like a baby and she said get it all out, get it all out, because you're gonna pick yourself back up after this and we're gonna figure this shit out together. And that's when I knew like I was good and those three months was my journey into recruiting. I told sorry a million times. Due diligence, met with a bunch of different recruiting agencies, found the one that Wanted me for what I bring to the table and who. I am not a smile and dial sales shop, but one, knowing that I'm bringing a roll of decks of context and industry knowledge. I'm going into recruiting for marketing as a someone who worked in industry for 15 years like that's an insane Competitive advantage. But what I didn't know? I didn't know how to be a recruiter. It's kind of like real estate right. Like everyone thinks, just because you bought a house, you sold the house Maybe there's some renovations that you could be a real estate agent what? else I'm gonna sell but what I didn't know, I really did not know the art and science of it. There's a nuance. There's a nuance in relationships, there's a nuance to outreach. So anyway, long story short, that first day fucking recruiting, and there's a piece of the story I talked about too. I was supposed to start the Monday after July 4th. On my daughter's birthday, june 18th her third birthday my parents are in town. My mom accidentally spilled a scalding hot pot of water on my daughter in her chair and she Sit in third degree burns all over her. Oh, we're seeing my life, yeah, yeah, absolutely worst in my life. And I met mom like I have my daughter who's Like the chicken skin, coming off like it wants me like it wants you. I PTSD from that moment I saw it she was three at the time, third birthday. On on her third birthday and my mom who's just mortified, it took her obviously my daughter's 11, it took her eight, took her many years to still have to forgive herself. No, they used them pigskin Hyperdermal transfusion. Yeah, wow, and it worked great. So I tell my daughter she's, she's not kosher for Passover. So you're really it's a really interesting point, so so so I was supposed to start and I remember calling Tom, my, my boss, who Hired me and believed in me, and I was like Tom, I can't start tomorrow. My daughter's, we're in the the fire unit at Nassau County Hospital here and that was the lowest point and like, just remember that date. Like you talk about depression, like in the parking lot Going home after three days in the hospital just to get a change of clothes and shower and take a shift break in In a middle of the night for in the morning Rainy parking line, just in, what the fuck like what definition of hell. And that was the moment I'm like it's a real moment. I'm like what, what, what did I? What did I do? Is this like a moment of like all the bad shit that I've ever done in my life? Like I was like, well, I really haven't done that. I didn't get any killed anybody. So we so we know yet Go back to the murder love tray and we'll flip a coin, we'll play that game, but so and that was a moment I was like sum it up, your daughter is fine. She's perfectly fine. Perfect, she's the most amazing. Perfect. She doesn't remember it, dude.

Speaker 1: 30:51

Good. Well, that's the beauty of time, is we tend to forget very traumatic things. Hmm, it's probably healthy to keep reminding her that that happened, otherwise it might become one of those you know Psychoanalysts. Like this happened and oh my god, I'm trying to see she's.

Speaker 2: 31:06

She's aware of it. Yeah, she's aware of it. She has no scars whatsoever, and that's amazing.

Speaker 1: 31:10

Let me ask you this first Is your mom Better and okay? Does she trust herself? Where is that still a harbor? Is she still harboring?

Speaker 2: 31:19

It took a couple of years and now I think she's okay. She's okay with my son, but she was. She was messed up for a while. She's going to yourself tonight and I remember my wife didn't blame her, but in the same time it was her fault.

Speaker 1: 31:31

So I also had. That wasn't on purpose, no, but that was but that was a hard.

Speaker 2: 31:35

That was yeah, I'm good that was a hard Bridge to cross between and my mom and my wife have an incredible relationship and my wife not holding any ill feelings towards my mom, like like someone hurt your daughter Obviously it's an act, obviously so and not to say that my wife had hard feelings, but like there was, there was a lot of work that had to be done human emotions are what they are.

Speaker 1: 32:02

The thoughts in your head and your wife's head Instantly went to blame. Anger, discussed, fear. All of the human emotions then probably went through the change management or the change. The emotional change curves Right. Don't dial depression, all of that. They're just normal human emotions. Of course you blame your mom. How could you not? It was her fault. But did she do it on purpose? No, and now you've healed right problem, though is she probably still harbors a little bit of that, because as an adult, we don't forget.

Speaker 2: 32:31

We're elephants. Yeah, but I've also, if we're lucky, we're all right. And I've also I've not wanted to, I've not desired or thought about bringing it back up to my mom and opening up old wounds, because I don't know if she's killed or not, so I don't know the right path for it or if it's even necessary. But I'm really close with my mom, we have lots of talks and I just that's a conversation.

Speaker 1: 32:52

It might be worth having the conversation just saying mom check in? Yeah, I would. I. I personally would. Now, I'm not a psychologist, but I know how people interact and you just putting your hand on your mother's shoulder and saying mom, you know, nobody harbors any negative feelings. Just in case we have forgiven you there, it wasn't your fault. I just want to make sure that we've had this conversation. We are clear. You should not feel any more remorse.

Speaker 2: 33:17

I mean this takes us into a very interesting thing which I've been thinking about our, you still both your parents, I do. Yeah, luckily my father is 80, my mother is 77, right, so not spring chickens, right, but they act like it, right. But that's amazing because they're in Florida. Look at these beavers have done. Look at the ingenuity and Strength of such magnificent animals that have created this massive structure.

Speaker 1: 33:36

We so this is a wooden teepee. Would you like to take a hike into a wooden teepee? I'm not gonna say no to that, yeah.

Speaker 2: 33:42

I mean.

Speaker 1: 33:42

I think this is a first, or are we looking at some Blair witch project style, right?

Speaker 2: 33:48

This is where we decide the fate of the murder love tree. Whoo, that's a look back on camera All right let's let's do this. Yeah, that'll be, that'll be a nature hike.

Speaker 1: 34:00

Hey, listener, thanks for hiking along with us. Discover more episodes at hightokahikecom, or to recommend an adventurous guest, apply to be a sponsor or to simply drop us a line. Alright, back on the trail of success. So let's give a moment of sharing, sharing what we've known, sharing some inspiration. What are some tips and tricks, some really inspiring moments that you can share for anyone that is budding or sitting at that really bad job, that desk they hate, with an idea, they want to start something, but they just don't have the question.

Speaker 2: 34:34

So it sounds so platitudinal, but I really do believe in a couple of things I believe in. Make should happen. That's my mantra. Make should happen, get shit done, let's fucking do it. You have an idea, do it, try it. What's the worst that could happen? It doesn't work out like you still have your job that you hate, you know what. But if you die tomorrow and you can try, that's on you, man, you're gonna have to go to the grave with that. But what I really believe from a tactical standpoint, every single day, my mantra and this came to me from Tom Hall, who gave me my first chance in recruiting every morning when I start my work day plan your work and work your plan. Plan your work and work your plan. Plan your work and work your plan. I'm going in focused and I'm old school man. I love writing on sticky pads because I love the feeling, when I'm done, of throwing it away, the actual act of throwing it in the garbage and being done. I'm gonna throw it off Versus being like having my notes section on my iPhone, being like 3000 things that I don't know where I left off. But also that notepad. Some days there's 10 things on there and I get all 10 things done, but some days there's 10 things on there and I only get three done and I just feel equally productive because those three things were the most important movers in my business. But I'm able to visualize those. But getting back to the core of it, there's no excuse in this day and age, for the most part, that you should stuck in a job.

Speaker 1: 35:51

There's so many options in this world. You're literally wasting your life away unless you don't like your job. You're using it to test your courage, your strength, pushing past fears, reaching out to mentors. Use it as on the job training, make it purposeful. By the way, just to give you a factoid, the art of handwriting a note sears that brain hand connection and it helps you remember.

Speaker 2: 36:13

The other cool part about well, not cool part is like there's also people in jobs that they're great paying jobs. They may not love them and they're able to do their passions on the weekends at home and they love it too. The real problem are people that are stuck in debt or jobs. Now there are people by socioeconomic place in the world have to do what they have to do, but we're talking about people that have options. We're talking about people that could actually do something different. There's no excuse and with the democratization and plethora of free information out there on the interwebs, you could learn anything. You can learn any skill, like college. I still question you you can learn about Burlwood? I'm not, but you can. In theory you can, but that goes back to, like you know, the new thing I'm doing now to monetize my experience is not career coaching. I call it career therapy, darren, and the difference is that there's no like I'm not putting you into a course or a program, but what I am doing is analyzing what's working, what's not working, holding you accountable and coming up with an action plan and giving you the tactics and tools that you need to be successful in your job search or your career transition your career. Pivot. Based on my experience and the early clients who are loving it, love it.

Speaker 1: 37:31

Because that's what people need is career therapy.

Speaker 2: 37:33

And they vent to me and I hold them accountable, I text them. I'm like dude, did you do this yet? No, why not?

Speaker 1: 37:40

So you are nailing the underlying theme why I came up with business therapy? Because business owners fail to realize their own accountability. They make so excuses. Human beings are capable of rationale, which is what sets us apart from the animal kingdom. Right? Think about it If you have a sales individual and they have a quota and they miss that quota for a few consecutive months, wouldn't you write them up or put them on a performance improvement plan or try to coach, train, anything to inspire, encourage or fix Right. But the business owner, if they are the partner in charge of sales and they miss their number, sometimes they just make an excuse or ignore it. And that's where the help of a board, if you're a big company, a board of advisors if you're a small company or a personal board. A personal board can come into play to hold the business owner accountable for their own success. Same thing with what you're doing. It sounds like you're doing with people. I'm a big believer that you should have a personal board of advisors.

Speaker 2: 38:41

I'm smiling because I have my own board of advisors. I call it my Mount Rushmore. I have mentors and I engage them in a couple different ways. I have mentors that are close, tactical, where I could call on them anytime, and then there's mentors from afar. Gary Vee is a mentor from afar. I watch, I learn, I observe, I'm also able if I really need to make contact, but that's like the emergency ripcord. But there's other folks in my network Joe Mullings, Scott McGregor that are worldly experienced, successful, long-tenured recruiters that have been through down cycles and have built businesses, and they built media brands around their recruiting business. So I am a more cruder. I am a hybrid. I don't define myself as a recruiter. That's what I do. Can we pause for a second and keep recording because I want to talk about something. Do you remember the first phone call we had when you told me the premise of the show? Yes, I do. Okay, I think that was within a year, within a calendar year, maybe less.

Speaker 1: 39:45

I was less about eight months ago.

Speaker 2: 39:46

Right, so I started this in May. And how many episodes have you recorded? I've recorded 36, three seasons. So, first and foremost, kudos to you for following through on a plan and going through it. This is a great concept. I remember telling you at first. I'm like I like the concept. There's obviously parameters. You have to get all these shows in on the East Coast in a certain amount of time. But you did it and now that I'm actually doing it with you, I'm smiling for you, man, because it's fucking cool and that's like the same thing with, like, when I had this idea for the podcast, it just came to me. I'm like podcasts were kind of okay in 2018, 19,. They were growing and there was a bunch of recruiting podcasts out there and I listened to them and I'm like these are so fucking dry.

Speaker 1: 40:28

This is so clinical.

Speaker 2: 40:30

It's like boring. I don't want to listen to it. And I was talking to my friends. I'm like you know what? I'm just going to record a Zoom call because now we have the ability to download the audio and video and my other buddy's a sound guy and let's just throw it into a podcast. And I recorded the first one on a whim no prep, zero prep. And the first podcast was born February 2019. And I have not stopped and I urge you, I tell every podcast to this set attainable goals. My first goal was 50. That's a year's worth of shows. Most podcasts I don't know the stats called PodFade fail after seven episodes because people don't realize how much work it takes.

Speaker 1: 41:09

And then the majority of those that made it don't last beyond 20.

Speaker 2: 41:12

Right. Yeah, there's phases of fall off because people also think, unless you're Kim Kardashian or a famous celebrity who has cashier, you're not going to get a lot of downloads. It took me a year almost to break 200 downloads an episode.

Speaker 1: 41:27

So this is a concept of perseverance and, yes, this is extremely daunting. You have to have a true passion, just like you would believe in any of your startup ventures Love podcasts. If you don't have a passion for one the media or medium that you're marketing then don't do it. And if you don't have a passion to completely ignore many of the risk factors of a normal business, right, the product is the podcast. The podcast is a marketing tool. The product is really you, and that is different than a selling topsy-tales. You don't have a physical, tangible asset that you're selling or service, so you have to ignore some of those key data points and push past it. And, as you know, podcasting is expensive. It is an investment.

Speaker 2: 42:11

I've also figured out how to minimize it. But I mean, look at, you have a full crew here on top of it. Now, yes, you have worked hard and you have the ability to start out of the gate with great equipment. Kudos to you to be able to do that. But you don't have to have that to be a podcast. No, I recorded my first show on a shitty $50. Getty Mike on a Zoom. You know, a MacBook camera, right, but you don't. The equipment does not make the difference in a successful podcast, so to speak.

Speaker 1: 42:37

Hey listener, thanks for hiking along with us. Discover more episodes at hiketokahikecom, or to recommend an adventurous guest, apply to be a sponsor or to simply drop us a line.

Speaker 2: 42:49

So, getting back to LinkedIn a little bit, it's interesting. Like every other platform, it's an attention economy and people are monetizing these brand deals with influencers and it's people like Game Assistant people that do it right, and it's a shame with companies like Hootsuite and HubSpot that are aligning with people that are hacking in an unethical way, and the truth is they don't give a shit.

Speaker 1: 43:16

Why are you?

Speaker 2: 43:16

the referee Right, so exactly. So I came to Jesus moment about less than a year ago when I was kind of calling out all the bullshit on LinkedIn of all these cheaters and hackers, and part of it was because what does that mean?

Speaker 1: 43:28

by cheaters and hackers? Because I'm unaware.

Speaker 2: 43:30

It's very simple. There are people that use either inorganic growth methods to game the system.

Speaker 1: 43:37

Like buying fans or something Buying fans and likes For real. I didn't even know that was a thing for LinkedIn, which is an age old social media hack.

Speaker 2: 43:43

Right, but here's the deal LinkedIn knows who they are. It violates terms of services, but LinkedIn chooses to term a blind eye. And I truly think because LinkedIn only cares about ad sales and they want that engagement metric for a KPI for how much they can charge for their ads. Okay, so quick pivot. So there's my.

Speaker 1: 44:00

Is there anything wrong with LinkedIn being a company and wanting revenue? They're not in the altruism business.

Speaker 2: 44:04

No, it's owned by Microsoft. There it is. Yeah, I had no idea they got bought for like a billion dollars. You can fact check me on that.

Speaker 1: 44:13

So I had absolutely no idea that LinkedIn was acquired. Okay, well, look at that Read in them, they're all right. That's interesting, but so then that's probably the exact moment that everything changed. And you're right, they do push certain people more than others.

Speaker 2: 44:27

Right, they do because I wish they would push my content more. I wish they would push my content more, of course.

Speaker 1: 44:33

What I have been told. My editor actually told me this. He's an extremely creative individual, great mind, at such an early age. He brought it out to me. He wasn't trying to burst my bubble, but he said, darren, your message is positive.

Speaker 2: 44:46

Positivity doesn't sell People want fear and anger and greed. Gary Vee is the only one that says that he's not positive.

Speaker 1: 44:52

Gary Vee's message is straight to the face. You know your marketing sucks this method is better the real, the honest. But his original. Thing.

Speaker 2: 45:02

Well, his original shit was all hustle culture. You're not making it work and you know what? The first time I saw Gary Vee.

Speaker 1: 45:08

I was at a Vistage conference with like 500 professional CEOs in the room real CEOs.

Speaker 2: 45:14

Real CEOs, not LinkedIn CEOs. Yeah, no, real CEOs, not LinkedIn CEOs. Actual CEOs of enterprise level organizations.

Speaker 1: 45:21

And he basically dropped. I counted him because I kept tally, I was keeping the text 49 F-bombs. And then he asked for volunteers to ask questions. The first volunteer gets up he must have been a CEO in his 60s, said something, and Gary goes you know what? What do you do for marketing? He goes well, we have a newsletter. He goes. You know what? Your newsletter is? Bullshit. Yeah Right, he was insulting the crowd that worked for him. For him, he was the first person that these people ever heard. That was literally a mistress to them a dominatrix.

Speaker 2: 45:52

It's like, ooh, so they became a dominatrix, tell me more.

Speaker 1: 45:55

They became, choked me out, but I just Call me daddy, it was the first time and I actually gravitated to that because I thought it was brilliant, of course, he was the opposite of Tony Robbins. Yes, he was the antithesis.

Speaker 2: 46:07

He was the serum that we all needed. He was the magnet that the hustle bros had for validation, and it worked. And you know what? I am not against hustle. No, are you kidding me? In this day and age, if I don't hustle, I don't make money. If I don't make money, my kids don't get fed, especially in this day and age and you are done like that. If you can't go out and hunt for your fucking meal and your prey to feed and get the hell out of this business and go back to a nine to five day. Nothing against, but don't call yourself an entrepreneur.

Speaker 1: 46:35

That's exactly right. Now, let me tailor it to this, because we are coming close to the end here. Do you believe that you are a successful person?

Speaker 2: 46:42

Yes.

Speaker 1: 46:42

Why do you believe you're successful? What is your definition?

Speaker 2: 46:49

I've been thinking about this one a lot and I think my definition kind of varies a little bit, but it ultimately comes down to happiness. That's my kind of metric Like am I happy? Listen, claude Silver, who works for GaryVee, who is one of my idols. Claude says we've survived 100% of our bad days and that one hit me like a ton of bricks. So of course we have shitty days. Two days ago was a real shitty day for me when a big deal fell through. But guess what, I went home. I have a loving wife, loving kid, universal theme here, and I was like you know what? I'm good, I sit in my office, this studio that here's another fun one. I look back on episode one of the podcast early in my days of being a solopreneur in a we work type place on a zoom call. And then I fast forward to yesterday when I'm recording in my own studio that I built, with lighting and cameras and a roadcaster too and $1,000 worth of equipment. I'm like, yeah, it's not the value of the equipment, it's the fact that I kept doing it to the point where this is necessary for the quality of show consistency and, like the reps, you put in the reps and I've landed on stages in the last two years that I've only dreamed about and has ignited the fire in certain areas that has been dormant. So for me that's success. Money I made money, lost money, made stupid ass decisions and you ain't taking it with you and it's. How do you have a micro view at times when you need to and then be able to pan out and say you know what Life is good Health, happiness, family, friends. I have a great career. It's like you can listen. At the end of the day, you can't control the outcome of most things in life, but you can control the level of effort. That's right. And as long as I said this morning when I dropped off at work, I go for the most part, babe, I can tell you now in this downtime that I'm putting in the fucking work and I'm happy. So I want to see better results, of course, right, but like if I was like sitting in bed all day, like smoking babe all day in bed, like no, I'm not successful.

Speaker 1: 48:53

But you hustle, so Adam Posner Bring it home, buddy. Yeah, I think that you are definitely successful. I have thoroughly enjoyed this hike with you. This is a good one man you have inspired me. The back and forth was contagious and I really did enjoy the momentum and the cadence we had. I believe you are a good person inside and out. I believe you portray inspiration. I believe you learned a lot about hiking today. I think I did. I believe you definitely went to hustle. So thank you so much for your time and your inspiration and I'm enlightened. I'm enlightened too. Thanks, man. Oh yeah, next time on I Took a Hike. We follow an inspirational trail comprised of momentous conversations with Nat Berman, ceo of Uncoached Corp and a phenomenal motivational figure. Till next time, I'm Darren Mass. Thanks for listening.