I Took a Hike
Gear up for a hike like no other and discover the landscape of business, life, and the complex trails that intertwine them.
Embark on a journey with host Darren Mass and a new inspirational guest each week as they navigate steep terrain while engaging in thought-provoking conversations that unveil the intricate dance between entrepreneurship and the human spirit.
It's an exploration of wisdom, stories, and nature-filled inspiration. Lace up for an adventure where trails and tales intertwine, only on the I Took a Hike Podcast.
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I Took a Hike
John Furth - Highly Functioning Methodology
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Are you ready to embark on an introspective journey with us? Strap in for an intense conversation with successful business advisor and CEO coach, John Furth. We traverse a multitude of issues, from the imposter syndrome and self-reflection to overcoming anxiety during the pandemic. In this unique session of hiking and coaching, John even reveals a deeply personal secret that will leave you astounded.
As we dig deeper into the episode, we dive into the murky waters of business, addiction, and recovery. We pull back the curtain on the potential for explosive moments in certain scenarios, and how people grapple with such stress. John Furth gives us an honest account of his substance abuse problem and his strategy for creating a safe environment for effective communication. His shocking experience with a friend’s meth addiction and the stigma associated with it adds another dimension to our discussion.
We cap off the episode by reflecting on personal experiences and perspectives on addiction, exploring how crystal meth influences different users. The conversation takes a thoughtful turn as we discuss the challenges of coming out in the 70s, the impact of 'bunkers' on women's perception, and the power of female influence. Finally, we delve into the path to managing addiction and living a fulfilling life. This episode is an enlightening exploration of addiction, its management, and the journey towards a healthier, happier life. Don't miss out on this insightful venture.
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Hiking and Coaching With John Firth
Speaker 1All right. So, john Firth, are you okay with being recorded on a podcast? Yes, I am. Well, there goes that liability. This is I Took a Hike. I'm your host, darren Mass, founder of Business Therapy Group and Parktime Wilderness Philosopher. Here we step out of the boardrooms and home offices and into the great outdoors, where the hustle of entrepreneurship meets the rustle of nature. In this captivating episode venture through Liberty State Park with John Firth, a skilled business advisor and CEO coach, our discussions delve into inspiring coaching moments and motivational insights, paired with a revelation that will astound and stun you. Brace yourself for a shocking twist as John unveils a secret that he has grappled with for many years, a revelation that left me as stunned as you'll be. Stroll alongside this deeply intense conversation when I Took a Hike with John Firth. This episode grapples with some difficult subject matter. You will certainly want to listen to the end. We are hiking Liberty State Park, which, arguably, I don't know if it's a hike, but we are walking, we are moving, so we're staying true with the show. And you did get into an accident. So hiking a real hike, true hike, a moderately defined trail, would be a little too rough.
Speaker 2So yeah, we didn't want to have to stop the interview in the middle.
Speaker 1Yes, I always make accommodations and pick the personality of the guest. So who is John Firth? Oh God, why do we care about?
Speaker 2you. Why do I care about myself?
Speaker 1I think, oh, don't we all ask that question, right? That's the everyday imposter syndrome.
Speaker 2Yeah, well, it depends on what saboteur you have, if you're pleased, or you really do have to strictly ask yourself what do I want? Why do I do everything for everybody else and not for myself? Slightly different than what we were talking about.
Speaker 1Well, are you a pleaser?
Speaker 2No, okay there you go, so you don't have to worry about that box. Well, it's interesting you bring that up because I'm depending on the. You know I've taken the test a couple of times, but it always comes out the same. The top three are controller, hyper-rational and hyper-achiever.
Speaker 1Well, let me interject for a second. When you talk about saboteur, you are talking about a specific style of coaching and a specific program, so a lot of the listeners will not know what these terms are.
Speaker 2So if you want to go quickly into that, because you will throw these around- I was developed by a man named Shazad Sharmine and he um psychiatrist, I think has a PhD in psychiatry, and then did an MBA at Stanford and, I think, went on to found and run a software company. And when he was finished with that then my understanding is he decided to take what he had learned and turned it, turned it into an actual methodology, and he did that together with Stanford Graduate School or School of Business, and that became the imposit of intelligence and he wrote a best-selling book which I always suggest people listen to not necessarily read that's how I read it and then a whole course. Now the course is funded by the US government specifically for coaches. Anybody can take it, but it's $1,000, but it was designed to really make it embedded in modern coaching practice as a methodology that, if not exactly cutting edge, really pulls a lot of strands together at least it did for me and it does for me and my groups, and the basis being that, again, nothing radically new in that sense. But the more positive you can stay through thick and thin, the more access you have to your prefrontal cortex, which is where logic and creativity problem-solving is, as opposed to negative thoughts which cut a pathway down to your big delaw. Obviously, because in primitive times, when so much change was physical, it was always. With it came a fear and a negative thought like I'm about to get killed If I don't run away from this tiger. And so it's a primitive response that is triggered by a negative thought like I'm going to be killed.
Speaker 1So I have taken this course thank you very much, right and I found it really beneficial Now for me what everyone takes something unique and personal and lately personal out of whatever course or method you're trying, because we can't set ourselves an objective. Buddy For me, it was a requirement to focus and meditate at specific points throughout the day. And it. I'm going to use the term gamified it, right, but it's not a game. But for me it was a game. It was a competitive matrix for me to follow. Okay, it was an app and some really good teaching. So you know, I did find value in it. When you take time to meditate on it or even think intently about some habit that you have or don't want to have, you bring attention to it. When you bring attention and awareness to something, you can start the corrective procedure, if that's what you choose to do.
Speaker 2If you evaluate it properly.
Speaker 1That's correct. So the reason why I wanted to hike with you is I've considered you a coach to myself, which is a compliment, right? Well, it's true. When I had met you, I was, you know, it was COVID stages. I was hitting my own depression as well, my own anxiety and my own self-doubt, and I had met you at the right time. And I remember our first meeting I felt energized, invigorated.
Speaker 2As did I.
Speaker 1Yeah and well, so what I did? I was actually with my wife in the car and I said you know what? I think I have this weird scenario where it's a coach helping a coach, vice versa, and our relationship kind of has worked out that way. So I've found inspiration in meeting and talking with you. So I wanted to take you on a hike and make an episode out of this, because I find you to be interesting, fascinating and successful as a coach and you've inspired me. So I thought, hey, let's start walking one foot in front of the next and see what it's like and then finally meet, yes, finally, yeah. Now we'll say I have met others, and I'm sure a lot of people will relate to what I'm about to say. I have met people over the vid again, right, right, met them for the first time in person and I was just like a bad blind date, disappointed, yeah, let down turned off in a way by people that I have met in person. That is not the case now, so qualify that. But I'm sure we've all had that where you meet someone and it's like, oh, you're a lot shorter than I am. Nobody can say that about me. Taller is okay, yeah, but yeah, that's kind of interesting.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1Relationships dissipate when you meet.
Speaker 2Yeah or can be yeah, let's see. Have I met somebody where I was more impressed with them than on Zoom?
Speaker 1No, what about me Wait a minute. Okay, self promotion here.
Speaker 2You're thinner than I thought you were going to be Well, because originally I wasn't.
Speaker 1While I was, you know, entrapped in the house like everyone else, I had the gym right. I was working out a lot. Now I've thinned out since I've been hiking, which has overruled the daily gym routine for obvious reasons, or you get endurance instead of strength. Exactly, this is more cardio if we take a heavy, hard hitting hike and just endurance for walking.
Speaker 2Well, my father was a great hiker. He was born in Vienna, he in Austrians, or you know. They got the mountains and I just loved to hike and his diet was not particularly good Viennese diet isn't. He'd love sweet things.
Speaker 1Yeah, sausages.
Speaker 2Sausages is less so in his case, but bread and cheese nothing where he'd write home and say, oh, I found this great new diet. He was never fat, not a Danish life, and it's because he walked so much.
Speaker 1I'm the same, but that's genetics. So hate me or don't, it doesn't matter, right? We all have something that we have to our benefit.
Speaker 2Yeah, genetics plays a huge role. Me, my father and my youngest brother have never had huge weight problems and we can eat any garbage we want to and we've stayed, you know, more or less thin not in shape, at least thin my brother and my mother. But my brother in particular, ex football player, weighs 350 pounds, has had three hard, had three heart attacks by the age of 52. He's an ex football player and never modified his diet and never did a roberick exercise, always went right for the weights.
Speaker 1Was he a professional football player?
Speaker 2No, he was college.
Speaker 1College football, All right. So what position Offense or defense we could start there?
Speaker 2Knowing his personality, I'd have to say offense, how do you not? This is your brother, I know, but it's football, did you not like him? Oh, okay, we're going right into it. Yeah, he's a. Oh, I shouldn't say that. Well, you can always take this out.
Speaker 1Well, we won't know.
Speaker 2He's an arch Republican. Okay, I just pissed off half my clientele. However, my father was a really quite brilliant lawyer and actually worked at the DOJ, and so I always pulled the. I can't believe. You're part of our family, don't you have a little self respect? The father was, you know, quite a well known lawyer, very successful, very ethical. How can you possibly come up with these stories about why the investigations are anything but but the truth? Okay, so?
Speaker 1so here's the thing, right. I find it funny how one person's belief can completely ostracize them. Now, from what we know of me, on the show, I sit in the middle and I literally do. I will listen to both sides. I like to make intelligent decisions and I pick and choose which I like.
Speaker 2Right, because you know what that makes sense Okay, in business context, politics or the biggest no flies on, you absolutely need to not go there.
Speaker 1You don't go to politics, you don't go to religion. I avoid it. In social situations, sometimes I indulge, but again I do sit somewhere in the middle.
Speaker 2As you should.
Speaker 1Yeah, because I think both sides are both sides are completely crazy, and you just made a crazy statement, so I'm going to pick on you for a second. Okay, sure, you dislike a large segment of your brother because he votes one way. Now, now I'm going to go out and say that this is one what makes America great, right and I'm not making a. Trump statement.
Speaker 2I'm just saying what makes America?
Speaker 1great is that you can have.
Speaker 2By the way, I don't dislike Trump. I dislike his behaviors and the way he goes about doing things.
Speaker 1Okay, so that's an important setup there. You don't have to like a person or you don't have to like what they say, right, but you can value them as a human or not, whatever, yeah.
Speaker 2But what he was, president, I mean he wants to say it's something, yeah that takes something about being a president.
Speaker 1Everybody that that knocks on him constantly. They don't realize you go be a president. Right, right, it's a shitty job and it's a hard job to get it's actually statistically I'm going to some statistics the most deadly job in America because 10% of its workforce small numbers here 10% of its workforce has been assassinated.
Speaker 2Although we haven't had a good assassination.
Speaker 1Well, we're not going there on this show. Okay, what you are about to listen to is not the typical. I took a hike episode. We aim to inspire, motivate and encourage personal and business growth with stories told by the achievers on this show. John Firth has certainly seen many successes as a coach, motivator and mentor. His admission in this episode takes us on a deeply personal journey that many can relate to.
Speaker 2I have a question for you what is the most astounding thing you have heard?
Speaker 1No, I go by my most shocking moments when Alan Murville asked me if he can talk about something personal and I said be as personal as you want, and he tells a story of being molested, not once, but twice. That was the most shocking thing I have ever heard in a moment of time.
Speaker 2Is he a?
Discussion on Business, Addiction, and Recovery
Speaker 1client? No, he is a friend, a colleague, and I sit on the board of one of his companies. In terms of a client. As far as a client goes, are you? screening a photo. I had a client open up about his arrest once when he was a teenager. Obviously we will not say who it is, but he had assaulted someone with a baseball bat. Not that person at all. A very astounding businessman Created lots of successful business ventures. This was a moment in time, in a moment in rage, in a potentially explosive scenario. The other one was I had a client say Google me, which I did. I did not find anything. He said now Google this nickname along with my last name. I did, and oh boy, talking about someone who made Sammy the bull Gravano look like an angel.
Speaker 2It wasn't him, of course.
Speaker 1No, that was his cousin. Then he explained to me now my client is an upstanding business person, fantastic business. He was actually a vendor of mine and I really enjoyed it. I thought he was fantastic at running this great business. That's where the therapy began. He had confided in me and hired my services to make sure that he never turned into the antithesis because he had moments of extreme rage, extreme stress and his head would go to a bad place. He's constantly fighting a battle where there's one direction pulling him to make bad decisions and there's another running this great business that's taking off and doing so well because of his efforts. Let's talk about this accident. Walk us through this. I've knocked wood, hoped to never be in a serious accident and have a couple of stupid fender benders of my own, some my fault, some not. That's part of learning.
Speaker 2Here comes the shocker. You ready for it? Yep, here comes the confession. I'm probably going to ask you to edit it out. I have a substance abuse problem Currently. Yep, still have it. I'm in recovery. Not doing that well with it, given to the cravings typically.
Speaker 1So I had a substance. We're talking either Coke, ecstasy, mali, mdma, definitely not meth, because you would have no teeth. No, I'd sniff. Oh really, Despite my steady outward demeanor, my own thoughts are racing to catch up with what I've just heard.
Speaker 2Well, you have your teeth Well, because I also know how to manage it and I also have a certain sense of. I have enough ambition, social instincts and whatever to work very hard at managing it.
Speaker 1My coaching approach has consistently been one of support and influence, never judgment. What might seem like complete acceptance is my strategy for creating a secure and open environment for effective communication. So I'm gonna throw some coaching skills out there. I don't fault you, blame you or think anything differently of you.
Speaker 2By the way, I knew we were gonna get here, so I thought, okay, we might as well do it I didn't.
Speaker 1So you asked me before what is the most shocking thing someone has done?
Speaker 2to me that was the worst shock test.
Speaker 1I've seen. Yeah, that one. I wasn't expecting you, of all people, to tell me this. So, okay, so you currently have a meth addiction, right, but yet you have a life.
Speaker 2Right, so here's a couple facts about it, or things I've learned. I've learned a lot is, in particular, with Christmas and GHB, because it's usually off and go hand in hand. Yeah, and it's all about the dopamine at the end of the day You're chasing a drug. Yeah, well you're chasing the effect of the drug, which is dopamine. All of these, drugs.
Speaker 1All they do is release your own brain's potential to give you more hitch of a drug.
Speaker 2And it's one of my groups I was part of six years ago when I was writing my book. When I said, well, I pretty much wrote it high. And he said, and you're proud of that, and I'm like, I wrote the fucking book.
Speaker 1Yeah, it's pretty good it started to. Yeah, I mean, there's an accomplishment there, because when I hear someone who's on meth and everyone here is someone who's on meth you immediately think of that guy on cops or PD nation, right, the one that's living on the street.
Speaker 2Oh yeah, let's see now you go to that stereotype. Yeah, this is a belief among people.
Speaker 1But I want to use a functioning. I don't know if it would be a high functioning, no, no, I'm a functioning.
Speaker 2I'm managing it, I'm a manager of it. So is this a daily thing? It depends. After the accident, of course, I had one no desire and was afraid of doing it. So there was. You know, it was only the last two weeks that it sort of came back. Because of the accident? No Well, partially because I have several triggers. One of them, it's the obvious one boredom. The other one is when I don't have any energy and I know I can't stop. This is my achiever. When I've got four client phone calls I have to get ready for and I just don't have the energy, out comes the pipe, you know, and five puffs later, boom, energy. I've gone into meetings. I went into a meeting with IBM where I had to convince them to pay their dues for the association. Not a lot of money, $45,000. But still they wanted me there to argue with senior man, you know, like 15 people in the room. So I aced that meeting Because you talked about ADD, with crystal meth gone Really, oh my god, the focus.
Speaker 1Oh, you're selling it to me.
Speaker 2no, no no, but that's the problem with this, and this is where there is no good or evil and there shouldn't be any judgments about it, because, look, this is a bad example, but Hitler was basically high on crystal meth for the last five years. No, there's a book.
Speaker 1Is this definitive.
Speaker 2It's a Kennedy. They believe Kennedy was on. I suppose it starts out as a vitamin shot to give him energy and feel vital. And when that stops working so well because your body gets immune to it. The document, hitler's document. It's well documented. Read the book Blitzkrieg Started lacing it with crystal meth Because crystal meth was a legal drug in Germany until 1920.
Speaker 1So just about every drug was legal at one point. Coke, Coca-Cola. Everyone thinks that it was the main ingredient. No, it wasn't. Cocaine was a small ingredient, very small additive, and Coke and say Coke, which is how it got its name Ecstasy was prescribed by psychologists for couples and couple therapy. PTSD and it works for that, someone who, myself, has done it multiple times in my 20s. Another coaching technique that I employ is to maintain the conversation through alignment. Yeah, you're very happy Sharing a personal story of challenge where something similar can enhance the openness of the dialogue. Yeah, right, and you love everybody, whoever is with you.
Speaker 2You're in love with them Now. Coke, I did a little bit in my 20s and marijuana doesn't do a thing for me, Alcohol doesn't. I've got to stop drinking and since I drink Goni socially, I stopped drinking. I haven't really had. I've had maybe two cocktails a month.
Speaker 1Alcohol is the worst substance you can put in your body, because it's truly a poison. Ethanol is a poison that kills all cells everywhere. I read this study comparing it to opioids. Heroin is bad for you, very bad. Highly addictive like meth, but it doesn't destroy all of your organs and cells like alcohol does. Alcohol is the worst substance, followed by nicotine Right, and then now I would say cocaine, Cocaine can give you a heart attack. Cocaine is the worst drug you could possibly ever put in your body. As you age, Because it constricts blood vessels in your heart, you will potentially succumb to a heart attack or arrhythmias. And now one small grain of fentanyl which looks identical to a grain of cocaine will kill. You Will kill you if you've not done it.
Speaker 2And that's why so many people are dying. I have my time on all strips at home.
Speaker 1That doesn't work. Everyone I know, so I meet a lot of people with addictions. That's part of what you do as a coach.
Speaker 2You meet people.
Speaker 1Yeah, and I've tuned down a number of my clients' addicts too, Of course, and I'm not surprised by the amount of functioning adults and parents that do a lot of drugs, including cocaine, and I've met a lot of them and I'm shocked every time, to the point where now I'm not shocked anymore. So you're telling me this doesn't shock me in that sense.
Speaker 2It's because the first thing I wanted to be when I was a kid was an actor. Ok, game men have learned to hide.
Speaker 1To act, not anymore, but growing up in the 60s, 70s, 80s.
Speaker 2Yeah, we were hiding. So here's something I learned in the many attempts at recovery from a psychiatrist who was actually the person I would have probably made the best try it with. He ended up at like 145th Street I just couldn't get it together, figure out the logistics of going all the way there from Brooklyn and then he reappeared at what's called crystal light. I think it was crystal free At Roosevelt Hospital on 58th and 10th running.
Speaker 1Crystal light is a drink, so it's a powdery drink that all of us can't percentile about it plays.
Speaker 2It's either crystal free or something like that, anyways, and I was like, oh my god, this is the guy that I could probably could get me to where I need to go. They wouldn't take my insurance. And the thing is there's a chemical. This is obviously chemistry. They have now done tests. We're using the Trek zone I think it's called that's what Curtis used to get off his drinking, because then he said alcohol takes a lot of drugs.
Speaker 1Replace one chemical with another.
Speaker 2Well, yeah, and then he didn't need it anymore. It's like in baking.
Speaker 1If you want to make something fat for you, add sugar. You have to replace something when you take something.
Speaker 2Yeah, although he's not, I mean, he doesn't need the Naltrexon he needed it for two months and he got off Well you teach your brain sidebar.
Speaker 1When I was taking ADHD medicines as a child, I felt that balloon medicine had the effect, but I was able to sit and concentrate in school and I learned what that was like until I told my parents I don't want to take this drug anymore.
Speaker 2I now know what it's like to be normal, yeah, so the study that's guys cited is psychiatrist. There was a study done of all substances you can get addicted to alcohol, crystal meth, whatever, 20 substances, whatever and they tested on two axiocies. One is how much do you think people can tell you're high versus how much people can actually see that you're?
Speaker 1high Functioning alcoholics. You don't know they're. I had an employee who came up to me.
Speaker 2He seemed totally normal but he was drunk until he passed out at his desk and I think we're talking about the general part, thousands of respondents, the substance that people almost immediately can tell you've consumed. But you kind of think they're two substances. Do you know what they are what? Alcohol and marijuana, Marijuana. I can say 100% that I never felt high from marijuana Ever Then. I never.
Speaker 1You haven't smoked enough, my friend.
Speaker 2I don't really like it. It doesn't really do it?
Speaker 1No well, it's a depressed, but it literally doesn't. It's the antithesis of what you're chasing. Yeah. You're not looking for a relaxing feeling, you're looking for an arousal, a spike.
Speaker 2It depends. Everybody's chemistry is different. This becomes very friendly and very huggy, and that drives me to the same place.
Speaker 1I just want to go take a nap, I want to watch a movie, be able to take a nap.
Speaker 2Ecstasy did that for me. Ecstasy did that for me Really. It made me really into a role.
Speaker 1But everybody's chemistry is different. Ecstasy made me want to dance in a club, which I did. I took it once my mom, by the way, is going to hate me after this. Why? Because she's going to listen to this and be like oh Darren, I wish you told it. No, it doesn't matter, I'll leave it up to you. Every thing that you have done in your life has led you to the person you are now, and if you like the person you are now, then you did right. If you don't, then let's start making changes for the future Right, and that's the problem. So let's go back and talk about that. I want to just touch on one point.
Speaker 2One thing with the study. The last thing about the study the one substance where you're convinced everybody can tell and people really can't tell for the most part is meth. Really, I've run into friends, my dealers.
Speaker 1So how many people are high on meth that I talk to every day and I don't even know?
Speaker 2Probably not very many, because you're not in the gay scene. The gay scene is much, much more prevalent.
Speaker 1All right. So let me just talk about this point real quick, because you had mentioned you have fentanyl test strips, and I want to make this abundantly clear. Now, nothing of what John and I are saying should be misconstrued from medical advice. We are not medical professionals, but we can have a conversation. But those fentanyl test strips work if you catch fentanyl. But if you're going into your little baggy of coke with fentanyl test strip thinking that you're going to find the one grain of fentanyl that's going to kill you, you're hunting for a single grain of ordinary looking sand on a beach. Yeah right, don't think that that's going to save you. You're either willing to take a risk or you're not. But that strip is not doing a thing for you. Don't even waste your money.
Speaker 2Yeah, well, it's unopened, because I've been doing this long enough to know what good crystal and bad crystal looks like.
Personal Experiences and Perspectives on Addiction
Speaker 1No, you don't. This is where tough love comes into play. Following alignment, a technique I use is to gradually shift the focus towards the seriousness of the consequences of one's actions. After building trust throughout the conversation, you can transition to assertive measures that are not only heard, but also heated. Because so did every single person who had a baggie of Coke saying this looks like Coke because fentanyl looks like.
Speaker 2Because most crystals get delivered in crystals, literally a crystal that you've made, no, okay, because I'm not an expert on that.
Speaker 1I've never personally tried crystal meth. Oh, let me tell you. But this is an interesting topic, because I would never have guessed that right. You said a party drug. I mean I even doubt it.
Speaker 2That's totally normal. First of all, I was a burning man 15 years ago.
Speaker 1Now I know yeah, of course.
Speaker 2The friend of mine from Sony took me there. So I've never been, you've got to go and I've got this group of friends and they were the wildest, craziest group of people. I was like, wow, wow, this is really cool. Last day, sunday is really quick right now.
Speaker 1The lawnmower guys following us. Can we move to another? Yeah, we need to get going anyhow.
Speaker 2And the last day when everybody's packing up and going. They were boring shit, just sort of like accountant types, and I thought, okay, what's the difference? Oh, they were high the whole time.
Speaker 1Hey listener, thanks for hiking along with us. Discover more episodes at hightokahikecom, or to recommend an adventurous guest, apply to be a sponsor, discover books along the trail, or to simply drop us a line.
Speaker 2You asked me what it's like to be on crystal meth, so let me give you a little story about what it's like. So everybody's chemistry is different. My chemistry, because I have ADD and because I come from a very uptight world. I know how to. It loosens my uptightness but it doesn't wash away Uptight world Okay. Yeah, just conservative household.
Speaker 1So your family was not okay with you coming out.
Speaker 2No, they were afraid of me having joint drugs. That was the conversation. I never about being gay, it was always like if you ever hear your joint drugs you're gonna.
Speaker 1What year did you come out to your family?
Speaker 2Freshman year in college.
Speaker 1What year was that?
Speaker 21977.
Speaker 1All right. So we are in a time where being gay is not okay, except in the social circles, the small circles. But as a general feeling and consensus in America, that was not okay. It was not really no.
Speaker 2So it says the media.
Speaker 1So it says, okay, fair enough. So it says the media, now you come out, mother, father, brother, right? What was their reaction?
Speaker 2My mother's reaction is I knew it, it's all your father's fault, because your father was a terrible father and that was her yet another spear she could throw at my father. Because when I was five, or six.
Speaker 1They were married or not.
Speaker 2Oh yeah, they married the whole time because women who grew up in the 40s went to college and then were said, no, you're only gonna be a housewife Got hamstrung.
Speaker 1Oh, that was Smart women. The bunker days.
Speaker 2Yeah, and those were smart women who have no opportunities and if they get divorced, there's always the possibility that the husband will not pay child support alimony, which happened her second.
Speaker 1Yes, well, there was a threat of where are you going to go as a divorcee?
Speaker 2with children and socially and socially what are you gonna do socially?
Speaker 1Yeah, socially, divorce was not as accepted as it is today. It wasn't the norm, in fact. Now I believe divorce is the norm. It's at least 50%, might be.
Speaker 2I think it was worse actually in the 80s.
Speaker 1I don't know Really, but anyways, I didn't know anyone was divorced, but that was the depiction of the bunkers, right, archie.
Speaker 2Yeah, but we were slightly, so the irony is the bunkers were done in the 80s. Actually no, it was the 70s, it was the 70s, it was like the 75s or the 70s, but it continued on into the 80s no, it must have, but it was very much the 70s mentality.
Speaker 1But it was all about that bang-zoom mentality of men control the family and the women, or play their role which is not the case today.
Speaker 2Yeah, not at all. So my mother's first reaction is it's all your father's fault. You notice the word fault? Yeah, fault, flame. So my father was like he would let a little Every now and then something out. I mean I knew he wasn't gay. If anything he was hyper, I mean that was. The problem was that he had girlfriends all over the place constantly, and that's what my mother was angry about.
Speaker 1But never truly confronted him because of the times she always confronted him. No, but in the sense where today that happens, you're getting divorced. But back then it's like the fear of being a single person, and my father, didn't want to be divorced because he was a corporate lawyer, a very high-flying lawyer.
Speaker 2He didn't want to have that stigma.
Speaker 1That stigma of being the worst. Or, quite frankly, as a lawyer he knew what it would, what would go through with that.
Speaker 2Yeah, and it gets facing. Even now it's as we said women have a lot more power over their husbands than I think people have the credit for.
Speaker 1Listen. As the father of three daughters, I will say damn right, as it should be.
Speaker 2Why they have one extra chromosome after all.
Speaker 1They have an extra chromosome. And there is the most powerful drug in the world and I don't need to say it, but the most powerful drug in the world that's been buckling men heterosexual men for eternity.
Speaker 2Morning Enos. Yes, it is a power I've never understood, but okay, you guys do with it.
Speaker 1But I can understand you don't understand. Alright, so let's go back to that. You tell your family they're gay, so they ultimately accepted you by probably not talking about it too much.
Speaker 2No, no, no. Actually my mother wanted to talk about it. Oh, my gosh, you want to talk about it. You know Radcliffe educated woman biologist. Oh, she wanted to talk about it. Really, it was my father who didn't want to talk. Well, she was doing the hyper-rational, she was rationalizing. Well, you know, there is a place for gay people because we're overpopulated. And let's face it, since you guys can't reproduce, we won't reproduce. It's God's way of Okay, talking, okay.
Speaker 1Listen, for that being your experience, I would say that's not bad at all, because it could have been far, far worse.
Speaker 2Oh yeah, and I, Especially in the 70s. I've heard stories even, especially in the Latino community which is a whole other story.
Speaker 1Oh, with the pride of a Latino father.
Speaker 2Well, and the fact that most Latinos do have gay sex, but don't cause that. Okay, it's guys getting together and having fun, which in the 80s.
Speaker 1Kind of like the Greek bathhouses back in Socrates' days.
Speaker 2It's spectrum, it's spectrum.
Speaker 1Well, what we do now, know now from you know sociology and anthropology is this is not a new concept Men have been doing what men do since the beginning of man.
Speaker 2Well, it's a spectrum.
Speaker 1The other thing I've heard Now if you can't tell, I personally don't care, Never did have, never will. That's why I knew we were going to talk about this. It doesn't bother me. I don't understand why it bothers people. What you do is up to you and I don't care whom I Well, and now we scroll forward when it's come out.
Speaker 2I've told my brothers and they're not to tell my mother. One of them's a blabbermouth and he's almost threatened once or twice. And last August I showed up in my younger brother's house in North Hampton, mass, high off my kite. They just lit into me. I mean just never, and this is too.
Speaker 1No one wants to see their baby boy.
Speaker 2Well, no, that's my younger brother.
Speaker 1No, I know, but no mother and fine, no brother wants to see their family member hooked on any substance period. And again, we don't stigmatize Zannex and Zoloft and all of these other drugs the same way because it's written by prescription by a doctor. But the reality is is they are equally as bad and as addicting.
Speaker 2And there you go. You know your preconceived notions of what a methhead is. I do know one thing, though If you've had addiction problems earlier in your life, then I had a call yesterday, high off my body, because I had two hours of nothing to do and I didn't feel like getting started on the next marketing campaign. And I had a call with a guy. He's 27. He was a substance abuser up until like 22. And now he has a business a business helping the sons and daughters of very wealthy people get over addiction, bad behaviors, all this sort of thing it takes one to know, one I knew the minute, two minutes into it I knew he could tell and the conversation went really weird.
Speaker 1So is this someone that you have told that you have this? No, no, no, no, no. Well, you have now, because they're most likely listening to this episode, but here's the thing. Well, depending on what we put into the episode, well, this is good stuff, this is staying in because we're going to full circle this at the end, because we're going to help you if you want help. Well, this is where I'm at. But admitting something is always the first and most critical step, and I'll take you back to the 70s, when you came out to your family. That was a huge weight off your shoulders.
Speaker 2It was because I had the support. Back in college, ben Schatz was the ringleader in my year. At Harvard he ended up being Clinton's head of his gay task force whatever it was called. So he was a big, very liberal, family super liberal. He screened at me a couple of years ago about not supporting Bernie Sanders. I was like you must be out of your mind. So he off the spectrum liberal. So for him it's about being true to yourself. Coming out. He got many guys and girls to come out to their parents.
Speaker 1Well, that helps. A movement is when people own it. Again, admitting it, you're basically agreeing with me. Admitting it, though, you had a weight on your shoulders and even if you think you didn't, you had to do something. You dreaded that conversation at first, because that's normal. You cannot tell me that you went in like hey you can't wait to tell them.
Speaker 2Except for the group thing. When I would come back to the group thing is I had a very strong support group of gay men, sure, and I knew that if all held both clues, I could get in the car, get on the plane, get on the phone with somebody. I had the support basis of support for getting over addiction. But I knew that worst case scenario. I had a support group.
Speaker 1But yes, you had a support group and, by the way I said it, was bisexual, not gay.
Speaker 2Ok, either, holding out a little bit of hope.
Speaker 1OK, you do you, but what I'm saying, though, is it still would have crushed you. There was still fear. There was fear, uncertainty, doubt, intrepidation, turning that handle or the knob or whatever to walk into your house. There was still backed by support, groups or not, this is your family. There was a weight on your shoulders that came off, so you got. You emptied that weight, that purse, so to say.
Speaker 2And it turned out to not be so bad. Now, had I been addicted, then that would have been much worse, Because that was the thing in my house and remember it was the 70s.
Speaker 1That was bad. Then all stereotypes come into play.
Speaker 2Well, and this, the fears go ratchet upwards. Remember this was pre AIDS, so it was. My mother's biggest fear is that I would be a social outcast. Ok. My response was yeah, but this country club set in short hills that you belong to is not the social. I'm happy to be the outcast, yeah, yeah. So it didn't really. There was nothing they could have said that would have made me reconsider.
Speaker 1And they didn't say we know, no matter what therapies your Bible camp sends you to Right, you're not converting someone, yeah, unless you're brainwashing them, which is exactly.
Speaker 2Well, this is what I said to a client yesterday who's got four partners. Nobody's willing to step up and be the CEO and all hell is breaking loose because of that. And I said and everybody said his name is Daniel, no, not that Daniel, daniel. He said you have all the makings. Yes, you feel uncertain about it and you haven't really done the leadership thing, but we're here to help you. And I said but, daniel, you have to want it. Yes, if you don't want to be CEO, let's not push this too far. You got to want it.
Speaker 1Well, it's like that with everything. So back to your addiction. Unless you want to stop and not be addicted and usually it takes rock bottom for somebody to say I'm done, that's what I thought the accident would be.
Speaker 2I always said when I have a direct correlation no, you can't plan rock bottom.
Speaker 1Rock Rock bottom is not a planned circumstance?
Speaker 2Well, obviously it hasn't, because now I'm back.
Speaker 1Yes, so let's define rock bottom. Rock bottom is an accident, is I?
Speaker 2almost overdosed.
Speaker 1Well, that's what I had. No, I mean, I could have died, but you planned and said if I get into an accident, that's my rock bottom. That's not rock bottom, that's a future that you're kicking the can to. You're giving yourself an out. Rock bottom is I literally am waking up in the hospital. I'm almost dead.
Speaker 2I've done that.
Speaker 1I did that once I haven't hit rock bottom yet, and I don't Rock bottom is that's your last move and then you're dead.
Speaker 2The problem with my type of personality and I've thought about this for years is I will not allow myself to go totally rock bottom.
Speaker 1Says everybody. So I'm not that I don't believe you or believe in you. The power of drugs is far greater than the willpower of man.
Speaker 2And denial is a huge part of it.
Speaker 1And, as my father would say, that's a river in Egypt.
Speaker 2That's not just a river in Egypt. So come back to what it feels like.
Speaker 1So I know my dad just laughed at that one in this weird awkward scenario here. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2And he's definitely going to laugh at that. What kind of people are you interviewing?
Speaker 1He's going to say my son's a jackass, straight this way.
Speaker 2Okay, so you know better yeah.
Manage Addiction, Live a Fulfilling Life
Speaker 1So, so so unless you truly want to stop. You are not stopping right and you have to now plan to stop, so I'm not here to tell you to stop. I don't care what anybody does, as long as they are functioning members of society. Where I draw the line, I lose all respect for people that do not function and provide to society.
Speaker 2That's been one of the problems with recovery and rehab and all this stuff is I walk into these rooms with a bunch of gay men and I go I would never talk to you guys otherwise, and then it's like then it doesn't work. And I had one group as part of about eight or nine years ago that, first of all, there's a difference between groups and organizations that want you to abstain, or the mission is to get you to abstain, and there are a lot of organizations that say they're happy to learn how to manage it. Yeah, don't believe them. They don't.
Speaker 1So I'm going to go out on a limb here and say there are certain people that if you are addicted to something and you know how to manage it where you are productive in society, then stay addicted. Because let's look at this- holistically. You're going to die of something and no, I am not condoning a substance abuse, but what I'm also not condoning. What I'm also not condoning is a life that is very lengthy and miserable because you didn't experience it, and hence professionals over 50. Yeah.
Speaker 2For addiction, but it's for people who literally think the rest of their life is going to be crap.
Speaker 1If you are in a situation where you don't want to live your life, then find the thing that's going to help you live your life. And make sure you're functioning, yeah, and you're productive and you manage it and you're not harming others.
Speaker 2Yeah, now the problem with so getting back to the experience of it. Body chemistry plays a huge role in how you, you know, as we said in, a direction now there are three or four different kinds of Tina uses, if I can go from that way. There's those who never had a lot of prospects in life, maybe from broken homes, just stupid. I've met a lot of just stupid people yeah.
Speaker 1Where they're not thinking about addiction management. They just need an escape from.
Speaker 2Pudet, and they just yeah exactly.
Speaker 1That's, that's the cliche, the stereotypical method.
Speaker 2And the unfortunate thing again, everything has good and bad. You know, in fact, that whole thing is not. Some of these guys are really very sweet and you really do want to reach out and help them. They're just wallowing in self pity. That's the first kind. Then there's the second kind. There are guys who can't manage it. Literally they're an hour into it and it's Dr Jekyll, mr Hyde, Okay. And they, like, are going to get the gun out and shoot you. Or they said I never want to see you get out of my apartment, stop saying. And then there's the, there's that, then there's the paranoid, schizophrenic. Get through these nine hundred experience where they immediately think you're stealing things. Yeah. Then there's me. There are people like me who and this is any, not just Christmas who are functioning addicts because their fundamental, their upbringing was fundamentally right. Their parents, you know from what it was it was a stable life got to go to good college. I understand the difference between behaving and not behaving. I don't always respect the difference, but at least I understand it. I also understand that I don't want to have a shitty life and so I don't want to go there.
Speaker 1So do you consider yourself an addict? Just to you do yeah. I can say myself. So you are an addict. You're addicted to the drug. Some people are addicted to love. Right Whatever, right To chewing gum.
Speaker 2Exactly Everyone's got some sort of addiction. I had three heart attacks because he had an addiction and he still eats right.
Speaker 1So okay, so you, you have an addiction. Now would you? I think you would agree that you're functioning, yeah.
Speaker 2But you make. There was a moment this morning when I went. Okay, I was a bit of a fresh air walking. Well, are you high now? I was last night. Takes three days for it to work itself out. So I'm, I'm talking to you where, like in a medium, yeah, probably, but I would say, you know, I switch on my professional. As one of my members of my group says, I've got my public persona and my behind the scenes persona.
Speaker 1This is your suit. This is the pursuit of this show. This podcast is about the suit. I like to be 50 50 in the suit. Right, you show up.
Speaker 2I'm interviewing you right now. This is my interview Exactly, and I know how to put the suit on Right, even if I'm high, and there are times when things go better when I'm high because I'm focused on with it.
Speaker 1Yes, so you've learned to master that.
Speaker 2Not only that, but I've also learned to harness some of the actually not bad stuff.
Speaker 1Okay, but the bad stuff, though, you have to suppress, and the bad stuff has to come out, and that comes out in making poor decisions like driving or saying something in a group meeting where you go.
Speaker 2Oops, I shouldn't have said that.
Speaker 1Yeah, why did I say that? Well, we all have foot and mouth syndrome every once in a while. Some of us on substance, isn't, some not?
Speaker 2And it depends also on your brand. My brand tends to be level headed, smart, not that I necessarily want that as my brand, but as my default was. So when I say something outlandish, the whole room sort of shuts up and looks at me. Now they're good times when I say something, oh my God, that's right, he's right. But there are moments where I go, okay, there's no mess got better than me.
Speaker 1So you're constantly fighting what you call it a demon. I wouldn't say fighting.
Speaker 2No, no, okay, I said I am in my journey. I would agree with what you said, which is, if you're not miserable down and out, not living the life you want, there are times when I say this is actually pretty cool, okay so because it's very liberating, it's very and it makes you feel great.
Speaker 1So I'm following you. So my biggest fear is living a very aged life, 90 years old, never having accomplished anything, never went anywhere. That's a hyper sugar. Never trying a drug Right. Never experiencing a party Right. Sitting on my sofa watching Wheel of Fortune on syndication Right. That's my biggest fear, that's my biggest fear and I think there is no more miserable life than that and that is something I'm afraid of. So when someone tells me that they do drugs, I think nothing other than the fact are you in an endangerment to me and others and those around you? Because I listened to Howard Stern a little while ago and he brought up a good point. He eats very healthy, right. He works out constantly, right. To listen to his parents moaning, complain about how much pain they're in when his father was alive and the fact his father was deaf and blind.
Speaker 2But when the medical technology was in the slightly more of an extreme.
Speaker 1It doesn't matter, though, those final days of not experimenting and experiencing life are going to be miserable anyway. Well, that's why. So why are you?
Speaker 2That's why I started this group, professionals over 50. Part of it is truly understanding yourself, so you can say this is what I want. And if it's sitting on a couch watching TV and I think there are quite a number of people perfectly happy doing that then so be it, but then commit yourself to it. Yep, with the idea being that most of us are going to live to be at least 90, that means we got 30 40.
Speaker 1And the other way is unfortunate. There's too many people. We need to not live that long.
Speaker 2Well, that's another episode yeah. And that's the aging, yeah, just problem yeah.
Speaker 1Which is, by the way, the take up resources.
Speaker 2I think I might say this aging Agents is the one discrimination that every single human being at one point or another with it, and they would not have been discriminated Of course Old people discriminate against old people, right, young people, too. Young people you. Oh, he's too young for this role, yeah.
Speaker 1And that's, that's the excuse. It's as we stated very early in this we want to write people off immediately. You want to know immediately so you don't waste time. So, up to young, I don't want to deal with you. I almost did that to my wife. Yeah, when I first met Christy sitting on a bench in a park it was a dog park actually I had the courage to strike up a conversation with her, great conversation, and then she told me she was 21. Well, I was 28. Okay, I immediately in my brain.
Speaker 2Put her off, yeah.
Speaker 1Yeah, I was like, oh great, I'm with with this beautiful girl, she'll be listening. So I love you and it was the best decision that you conquered your fears. No one believes me, but except me. The first moment I spoke to her, I immediately said in my head I'm marrying her, that's yeah. And then a few moments later she was like she's 21 and that's was like oh great, there's that.
Speaker 2Yeah, I am open the door. And then I opened the door and saw Kodas. I had heard her voice over the phone.
Speaker 1You just know.
Speaker 2And I opened the door and that was it. That was it.
Speaker 1I'm with with that, with Christy, it's just Barry White the whole way. So where were?
Speaker 2we.
Speaker 1So let's talk about Living with addiction Next, do you?
Speaker 2want to be sober, not as much as I probably. Let's put it this way Do you have a need, not enough, to become?
Speaker 1see. Do you have a need to be sober? The one that's actually. I think that's how we should pivot all these addiction conversations. Do you have a need followed with a desire?
Functioning Addiction and Coaching Opportunities
Speaker 2I think I'd like to do it differently. Which is what do I see my life being Okay Forward and what I really am passionate about? But we're in startup phase so it's not easy. It's professionals over 50. Because I just lived through, and multiple levels With the addiction and everything else, of how hard it is To figure out when you've got money in the bank, when you've had a career and you know you've got 30 years ahead of you Most likely, and you don't want to become a couch potato.
Speaker 1People with addictions or without, because I think you have a fantastic opportunity right now.
Speaker 2I.
Speaker 1Again, you have surprised me. You have surprised the listeners. You are highly functioning With what? If you asked people what are their you know Most extreme drugs, number one would be heroin or fentanyl Now because it's in the news. Number two would be People Meth Angel does any of those Right. So you are highly functioning Right in that sense.
Speaker 2So we have to remember Crystal meth was legal for about 40 years, at least in Germany.
Speaker 1Regardless of legal or illegality. You know a lot of drugs. Look at mushrooms. Those are becoming legalized. But they were legal or pot. Pot as well. Not legal because pharmacy companies can't make a product out of it.
Speaker 2That they could sell, and when you were taking your ADD medicine, that was a form of speed. Which is what I felt, and I did not like it right and, by the way, when I fell off the wagon about a week ago, the first two days I was just okay. This is why you can't keep doing this.
Speaker 1Just you. You immediately hated yourself Um. You went there. I hate, how I felt.
Speaker 2Yeah, I hate it that I had fallen back. Yeah, I wouldn't say hated myself, I was disappointed myself.
Speaker 1I I you know I'm a full open book here. I was Experimenting with cocaine back in my 20s Sorry, mom, whatever and I just remember coming home from a Bar or club, wherever we were. It was early morning, maybe like 11 am, and I told my friend I'm like the high is okay and fun, but this low, I'm never doing this again. Yeah, right, and so so I get that feeling. I could relate to the feeling that you have, where you're just in disbelief that you brought yourself this low.
Speaker 2So we're very similar in terms of the hyper achiever and so forth. When you accept the fact that you've had self-esteem issues and actually gotten at one with it, which means also, you know, the fine line I have to tread is Rationalizing something that should not be rationalized versus accepting it because I'm a human being and this is one of those fine lines I've accepted. Fact and not in denial is that, you know, I have reasons to have a little so steam. My mother used to always say it. Yeah. I was younger, so that just reinforces it and that's what drives me towards achievement. But you can call it an addiction to as long as I'm Achieve getting to where I want to go, even if I don't get there, which is to have a great practice. Have people who are learning my methodology, which is what I'm doing with professionals over 50.
Speaker 1That's the name of the title this episode. Oh, it's what meth the dology.
Speaker 2Oh, some of the names. I won't go into the cedar side, but how about Queen?
Speaker 1This is my show.
Speaker 2I make the title so if I had, if I had to right now tell you what my dream is for what I'm building is I'm gonna build an alternative to the NBA. What, yeah, for entrepreneurs? That isn't based on theory, is based on People getting together, sharing stories, learning from one another, being held accountable and Dealing with whatever demons are gonna get in their way. That's not an NBA program. Okay and me programs are not structured like that. Nba gives you technical tools and no life skills. Maybe Harvard does a little bit, and then professionals over 50 is Is me being a good entrepreneur. The number of times people said, my god, what a great idea. Why isn't somebody doing this? Well, I am. That's me saying I got it, I got a concept, I got an idea and it'd be great if I it becomes something big.
Speaker 1And that's it okay.
Speaker 2So I think because and I don't want to just rub my relationship with Curtis, which is probably the one thing that would drive you both Do you mess together Interesting that's part of the issue is he was? He was addicted. Yeah, he just a marijuana and I'll go at an alcohol.
Speaker 1But no, but one he got, and does he judge you?
Speaker 2Not in that way does he judge me. No, he judges me up. You know, you're bringing yourself down, You're bringing yeah, why are you doing this?
Speaker 1Yeah, why are you doing, but not enough to want you to stop.
Speaker 2Oh yeah, are you kidding? Oh, he does want you stuff. Oh god, yeah, but he also You'll appreciate this when faced with the force of John, firth is gonna do it. Whether you like it or not, you'll lose every time.
Speaker 1Yeah, all right, so you don't want to quit I?
Speaker 2I've accepted the fact you've accepted.
Speaker 1This is who you are not going to be possible. And I'm I'm personally as a non-judging person in this environment. I'm okay with that. As long as you are not harming others, you harm yourself. That's a you think, yeah, yeah, you know what? Who might to tell you what you should do with?
Speaker 2it this way I was convinced I had that accident, that that was the whole point and would teach me clearly. But it didn't.
Speaker 1But this is who you are and You've accepted who you are. And again, rather than being that 90-something, you're old, without experiencing or experimenting with life.
Speaker 2You, you chose this route and that's okay, I chose it, but I just you chose, you chose you made it, you make every choice.
Speaker 1Nobody held a gun to your head and said smoke this pipe right. And if they did, then you could easily say I'm never doing that again.
Speaker 2Here I am not listening to my own advice, Exactly Well that's.
Speaker 1We spoke about this earlier. You need someone else to tell you the advice you already know, right?
Speaker 2Exactly Okay, just not the way that one coach did it exactly, so you don't by the way he. He said if you ever fear, if you really go back on that substance and I'm coaching you, that's it. Yeah, and what I broke up with. I said I have been high every day for the last two months and you Did it, told your word. That's one of the problems I'm having here.
Speaker 1Yeah, so what I? I think so you don't want to come off of it. This is how you've identified and that is okay. I think you could have a really good opportunity With coaching and consulting people who are also highly functioning in addiction in making sure that they don't go over the edge.
Speaker 2It came out. So what's interesting is, in the last six we had the largest company, who's part of my Vistage Group was in Long Island. I won't mention who it is, but he was the son of the founder and had all the you know issues that son of a founder has. Mm-hmm, he really didn't like being a CEO. Yep felt he had to do it. Now he's found a replacement so he can move on. And he came out and said he broke his foot, bad, bad break, about four months ago. It was bed everything we do our coaching sessions for a while over Zoom. But he liked me to come out and see him and I said, look, you're important enough. And I said, well, I'm happy to come out and we're on Fire Island, so that was an easy thing to go see. And he was in the Saveville Ronconkamal area. And so then we came face to face and then the truth, just like now the truth came out.
Speaker 1He was high as a kite on weed and I guess I love it when people say, on weed, On the weed, on the wacky weed, no, it's OK. So he was like I know a lot of functioning really functioning.
Speaker 2So that was the first time I had a client who had offered to tell me without reservation what the problem was.
Speaker 1But that's not.
Speaker 2In other words, there's a lot more addiction out there than either one of us.
Speaker 1You shocked me when you said you were on meth. If you told me you were high and you smoked pot earlier, I would think nothing of it. I know so many functioning potheds, but it's the stigma of that picture of what a meth person does, right, Then no sleep for days of what that person would look like. Now you completely have blown my mind because you took that stereotype away.
Speaker 2Broke it, which is again kind of. Again, I'm not condoning this because this is not something I want. This is why you and I are similar. We sort of like doing that. We sort of like sort of standing people's beliefs about things long time. As far as being a coach, you have to do that.
Speaker 1Well, it's also part of the show. It's supposed to push back.
Speaker 2As I said, for the last couple of weeks I've just assumed this was going to happen, so I'm prepared for the conversation.
Speaker 1I do with everything in life, so I'm very appreciative of you sharing, because this is great.
Speaker 2No, I like you. There are very few people in this world who I would do that with.
Speaker 1Well, this is great, though, because you're going to help a lot of listeners. There are some listeners out there that are in the same boat as you, and whether or not it's with the same substance or something else, Well, my hourly tier.
Speaker 2Yeah, there you go, you can contact me. No, we'll absolutely.
Speaker 1I think that there is a need for that right as far as I know, because I don't have substance addictions personally right, my addiction is the success I put into something I'm working on. Right now my addiction is hiking and playing the guitar.
Speaker 2And I play these horribly.
Speaker 1But I hike masterfully. You're like my personal trainer, but I still love it. So I would say that there is something here, because from what I know of addiction counseling, they want you off of the dependency. And I don't think you should be off of a dependency If you don't want to. I think you should manage the dependency.
Speaker 2I think there is something's happening, because I've been sort of trying recovery for about 10 years, trying Well, because I haven't succeeded in failing, failing recovery, failing, not trying All right, by the way, we have to keep moving. Ok To want to get something to eat.
Speaker 1You've been failing at recovery, but I mean dare I say, stop trying and stop failing and just imagine yeah, why endure failure?
Speaker 2So change my belief system about it.
Speaker 1But just make sure you are functioning and do not I will say this unequivocally do not drive again. Well hi.
Speaker 2No I. Because you are then jeopardizing someone else's life and I'm actually very afraid of driving period and if you drink and drive.
Speaker 1Do not ever do that again.
Speaker 2I'm not talking to you, I'm talking to the audience. Oh no, no, do not.
Speaker 1I do not respect anybody that is functioning on a substance that will endanger other people.
Speaker 2The biggest because I woke up just as the crash was about to happen. So I saw it all happen and my first thought was shit, I can't see anybody in the other car. Did I kill him? Yeah, and I said, had I killed someone?
Speaker 1You'd be in jail. You would 100%. You would be, well, not at this very moment. You'd be out on bail.
Speaker 2Well, there would be a lawsuit. There may still be a lawsuit.
Speaker 1If you are in a vehicular manslaughter scenario and you are deemed under a substance you are.
Speaker 2The minute it happened I hid everything in a way that I knew the police would never find Blood test the guy. I was at the hospital.
Speaker 1No, what I'm saying is, if you are to, if you horrifically murder somebody, it's a manslaughter right, you didn't set up to do it they are absolutely doing a drug blood draw on you and in that they will uncover that you were on something and there is a guarantee you are being brought up on charges.
Speaker 2Yeah, no, I disagree.
Speaker 1You don't need those charges right when you could prevent the worst case scenario from happening. So guess what? Hop in a freaking Uber.
Speaker 2Yeah, no, exactly, thank God, it limits us.
Speaker 1We have Uber people who do not drink and drive.
Speaker 2We've got a loner now and we're not getting another car.
Speaker 1Yeah, I have no respect for people that drink and drive. I will limit myself to two at most and wait at least the full two hours before I get in a car?
Speaker 2No, absolutely, and it was my worst nightmare, which is why I thought I had bought them out, but clearly I hadn't.
Speaker 1Can you tell?
Speaker 2I have known people that have been that are no longer with us because of drunk drivers Right.
Speaker 1I have a strong feeling on that.
Speaker 2This is why my brother and his wife reacted the way they did. She lost a brother, gave brother to Crystal Meth.
Speaker 1And recently my kids go to a camp. There was a drunk individual on Long Island that crashed into a car and killed two fellow campers that were nine and 15 years old. Yeah, that should never happen. And obviously the drunk driver walked away and will hopefully serve the rest of his life in jail.
Speaker 2Yeah, that was the only thing I thought of for the first minute or two is I don't see it in the car. That's not a good sign. It was just because it was tinted in the dust, but you don't look like someone I would stereotype, so all right.
Speaker 1So you've taught us a lot of lessons here and again I'm not judging, so just the only thing I judge on is the driving aspect. So don't do that. This is your last drive, and that's it.
Speaker 2No, it's not a judgment. You're saying it as a friend.
Speaker 1Well, as a friend, as a concerned citizen, because I don't ever want to hear these scenarios happen to people and they're completely avoidable as a car, as I reach out. Yeah, Now let me ask you this, because I ask you in every episode do you believe you're successful? Because I start off all these episodes finding successful people to talk about their success journey, to inspire others. I want to hear from you Do you believe that you are successful?
Speaker 2What does the?
Speaker 1others say Well, of course, some say yes, some say no, and then I wave my magic wand and my gavel and I deem you.
Speaker 2OK. So two years ago, I would say not on any level, but thanks to the positive intelligence and all the other work I would say I could be more successful, I could be more happy. But you know what this is me and at the end of the day, I've had a pretty damn good life compared to the rest of humanity.
Speaker 1You enjoy it.
Speaker 2I enjoy it, but there's rarely. It's only in those moments during COVID when I had them drugs over near the car and I had one day where I literally shut myself in the den for pretty much all day because everything was just too black and I just knew if I talked to anybody. If Curtis sees me, I just that was mad at me. I was just like this is bad, bad withdrawal. You're going really into fucked up places in your head Just like don't go anywhere. But for the most part, like right now, I'm very happy, and not just because we had a good conversation, but I feel decent now.
Speaker 1Oh it's therapeutic, it's therapeutic. We're walking, we're talking and you've thrown a weight off your shoulders. Again, it's a weight that will come.
Speaker 2You can put any extent you want to Right now it's like I'm getting my car right now we're going to lunch and afterwards I go oh my god, I can't believe we're just doing it. That's OK, that'll be the first one, but of course, my biggest fear is is that going to change how you and I interact.
Speaker 1I think you are successful in pioneering certain aspects of life and humanity. You are successful as a gay man in the 70s and being strong and I would say an inspiration to those who you've told your story to coming out.
Speaker 2You could also say I'm an entitled white man. I could but.
Speaker 1I would never say that, but you said it.
Speaker 2So I'll go with it. There's definitely that so you have entitlement.
Speaker 1I would say that you've been a very successful coach.
Speaker 3I would say that you are unsuccessful at managing a substance abuse.
Speaker 2I would say I have a journey I'd still have to go through. I'm willing to take the journey and I will agree with that. I would say take the journey, yes.
Speaker 1Had you not gotten into an accident and endangered others and yourself. I would say that maybe you're successful in that, but I think your story is inspirational because it certainly bucks a lot of stereotypes, but I think you could do a lot in helping people others that are functioning.
Speaker 2We're going to see what happens. Let's publish I mean let's do it and let's see what reaction we get.
Speaker 1I think it's going to be positive.
Speaker 2Actually at this point. Because we love candor, we love an open, honest story and we love an underdog who's fighting a war internally, trying to get someplace where they've got a demon, the journey. There's seven kinds of Hollywood films. One is the quest, one is the hero. All of seats back to the same thing. Somebody who gets all odds goes out and still achieves something.
Speaker 1So where's your journey at?
Speaker 2Right now, hopefully in Jersey City, you get to meet.
Speaker 1So his journey is a hamburger.
Speaker 2No, I did say it, but let's go, because we only have 25 million grabs.
Speaker 1So, john Furth.
Speaker 2So, oh yeah, this is the end of the podcast.
Speaker 1So where does the journey end?
Speaker 2The journey ends with me building a business that often includes employees, which I've been worried that will be acquired. That will be in the learning and development space. However we want to define it, whether it's substance abuse or whatever, that deals with pretty much all ages, starting at about the age 30. And then, once you have that, then figuring out what is it like when you're not living that lifestyle and if it involves addiction. I have this vision that 10, 15 years from now I will have either handed over or sold it or something. It will be a sizable organization, at most maybe 50 people, but for learning development groups that's not a bad size.
Speaker 1So I think you should call this company managing addiction the method. I think you'd be very successful out of that. I know you would. You are a good inspirational coach and mentor to many. You've got demons, but we all have to look at ourselves. Because we all have demons and guess what? By not medicating yourself. If you are depressed and you are a parent, you have demons too. So there's demons on all ends. It's the human condition. John Furth, I thank you for your extreme openness, your candor, your honesty and your powerful story. Thank you, you have certainly given me at least one of the top most shocking moments, as stated. So thank you so much for being part of, I took a hike.
Overcoming Addiction
Speaker 2Ok, all right. Awesome, that was great. Thank you. I'm Furth.
Speaker 1Hey, John, it's Darren. How are you?
Speaker 2I'm good. How are you doing, John?
Speaker 1Doing very well. So it's been a few months since our hike. Yeah two. Yeah, and I was thinking about you and I wanted to see if there was any new changes in your life or really how you've been since we last spoke.
Speaker 2Well, yeah, there's been a major change. Now I can't remember the details or some of the details of our last part of our conversation, but I've gone sober. It worked. Whoa, yes.
Speaker 1Yes, ok.
Speaker 2Yes, something I never thought I would say and say with pleasure and happiness.
Speaker 1Well, that's amazing. Obviously, when we had recorded the episode and you had told me about that, I was kind of at a state of shock, but I was doing my best to be supportive at the same time. Yep, you definitely You're a great. Yeah, you definitely did surprise me. Essentially, I was not expecting that, and when you had asked what was the most shocking thing, I guess to have said I would never in a million years have guessed that you would be the one that takes the cake, right.
Speaker 2And I think I attributed that to the media, or specifically to Breaking Bad, that portrayed Kina addicts and, by the way, we'll talk a little bit about what kind of addiction I have, which is something I've learned but a Tina addict, if I can say it like that, let's call it crystal meth can be highly functional. That's one of the things I've learned on my journey. But let's scroll back a second. So when I saw you, I was still in the wake of my accident, and so I was still basically freaked out, even if I was controlling myself, and I was very scared. I was very scared because I had started this program at a place called Parallax Great shout out to Parallax because they actually did what many others haven't been able to do, and there's one very specific reason why. So I had started, and at that point I was pretty convinced that it wasn't going to work without medication, and I was right. So finally, they got my medication. Oh, I got my medication from them I'm not sure why it took so long and the next day I had no cravings. It was something I never, ever, ever expected, really. Yeah, well, I was afraid that the cravings might go. My husband had taken that trachsome, which is the medication which is not FDA approved for this therapeutic use. It's approved for actually I don't know what it's approved for but it's not approved yet for treating addiction, although it's been highly effective. So my husband went cold turkey on alcohol when he started taking it and that's what happened to me it was. I can't tell you how amazing it was. And the FDA has not approved it as one of my new things that I'm sort of pissed off about.
Speaker 1So let's just sum this up how many weeks sober have you been?
Speaker 2Then now exactly four.
Speaker 1That is.
Speaker 2Eyes of tomorrow.
Speaker 1That is amazing. I have to be honest, I didn't know what to expect after our episode. I wasn't exactly there.
Speaker 2I didn't either, I didn't either, so I do yeah.
Speaker 1Do you think that the recording of the show or an episode and you essentially coming out with your addiction was either rock bottom or a catalyst for you to get sober?
Speaker 2I would say that it was a cry of despair. I trusted you a lot. Also, you know, when you're being recorded, you forget that a lot of people may hear this. I'm not. What's interesting is afterwards, of course I was. Hmm, maybe this wasn't such a great idea, but then when I became sober, I've actually started telling people in. The reactions have been mostly good and I would say, even more than being good. A lot of them are like, yeah, okay, let's talk about something more. Like, yeah, okay. So like everybody's got addiction. And you know I don't get specific, but I told a bunch of my founding members of this new group I've started professionals over 50, because I got into a fight with one of them and I just said look, you know, I just got over an addiction. My emotions are all over the place and that was just to settle it down. I immediately wanted why I did that, but I thought you know what? I'm not embarrassed by it anymore. It's, it's and I understand why people, when they go sober, talk about it a lot. Because it is. It is amazing. It is amazing that not only did the creating stopped, but I had absolutely no, no grief, no remorse in the sense of like, oh, that was so great, and when I love to do that again, it was literally one day to the other.
Speaker 1So I think the biggest challenge that we have in life is we lie to ourselves, and it's what type of life. We tell each other right In our heads and when you own an issue and you put it out there, it almost makes it real. And once it makes it real, it makes it acceptable for you to start moving beyond it. So, you know, I do think that you coming out on on this recording, on the show helped you see the light, so to speak, and it helped you get the change that you desperately wanted Right. You did hit rock bottom, you got in a car accident, you know, and I'm.
Speaker 2the next two weeks, or the next two weeks, were not very good. I went down at severe dark hole. It was really Labor Day was the beginning of the switch, when they promised me the medications. But yeah, it was not over that dark spirit.
Speaker 1It was pretty bad the next two weeks after we talked and you seem to have made it through, and obviously it's only been four weeks or a month.
Speaker 2Exactly.
Speaker 1So you have a long road to recovery, especially with such a powerful drug. But I will say that I am proud to hear these first steps.
Speaker 2Thank you, no, I'm, it's been been, it's been amazing. It's I, the joy I feel now and fact that I feel grounded I would say. The other thing is, is I another shout out? I have the most amazing therapist. Her name is Susan McGee. I go to group four times week, which is which is good, but Susan has been a godsend. She is not, not judgmental, she holds my hands, who things when I, when it looks like the cravings might come back, it's, it's I really have to say thank you to parallax First. I don't think I've cried when I said that, but I can't say enough good things and it's not like that person. But they gave me what I needed and they're continuing doing that.
Speaker 1That is great. So my personal view is you are who you are and you need to own it. You own your strengths you own your weaknesses and you own your recovery. So, john, my message to you is own your recovery, stay strong, stay sober and do it for everyone that cares about you and that is listening to this show. Thank you, thank you, john, thank you. Thank you, Darren. I will follow up within a few weeks. I want to hear the same message.
Speaker 2Okay, excellent. So have a great day, and I will talk to you soon.
Speaker 1Be very well, my friend. All right, you too. Next time on. I took a hike. We immerse ourselves in nature alongside Filipino American entrepreneur Pete Dario, the owner of Terrace Plant Shop. Till next time, I'm Darren Mass. Thanks for listening.
