5 Common Marketing Mistakes Affecting Trades People and Home Service Businesses | ft. Vanessa McQuade | Ep.410

Improve your marketing strategies and achieve success with our exclusive tips, custom-made for trade businesses. Don't fall into the trap of making common marketing mistakes. This episode dives into effective lead generation strategies and crucial marketing tips to enhance your business's visibility and success. Discover how to steer clear of pitfalls and adopt proven marketing techniques that drive results. Don't forget to subscribe for more business marketing tips and strategies!

#TradeBusinessMarketing #MarketingMistakes #HomeServiceMarketing #LeadGenerationStrategies #BusinessMarketingTips

Watch the video version of this podcast at https://youtu.be/9UcLr7pSDwI

Discussion Points:

00:00 Episode highlight
04:16 Clients seek lead generation for consistent quality leads.
09:05 Budget optimisation and lead flow consistency. Period.
11:04 Advanced tracking tools offer specific lead insights.
15:41 Leading with purpose attracts like-minded clients.
17:48 Differentiating and defining unique client experiences in business.
21:32 Understanding client needs is crucial for successful marketing.
24:27 Marketers integrate sales due to lead issues.
27:30 Evaluate website content to target intended audience.
30:42 Tool tracks leads and their sales performance.
36:35 Focus on leading indicators for faster feedback. Integrate CRM for clear ROI transparency.
38:58 Importance of industry benchmark for marketing success
42:43 Encouragement to invest in a scalable marketing strategy.
43:44 Resistance to change, but necessary for growth.

Resources:

Visit Intrigue Media’s website at https://intrigueme.ca/
Get social with Intrigue Media at @imintriguemedia
Stay in touch with Vanessa at vanessa@intrigueme.ca
Download your own Marketing Partner Checklist at https://go.intrigueme.ca/l/700853/2024-04-12/9stvyf
Read our blog on this podcast here: https://www.thesiteshed.com/410-effective-marketing-strategies-for-tradespeople/

Have a conversation with us! Go to tradie.wiki/pod and book a call.

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Transcript

0:42

Vanessa, welcome to the Site Shed podcast. Thanks for having me. All the way from Intrigue Media in Canada. Yes. Ontario, Canada. Guelph, Ontario, Canada. Very specifically. Most people don't know it, but you do. I do. We had a bit of fun fun fact for you, listeners out there. Guelph is the well, and I actually, I should probably qualify. My mate can be a little bit full of shit, so this may or may not be true. But, apparently, Guelph has the 2nd largest pop, Australian rules football competition outside of Australia. So I don't know. Matt, if you're wrong on that, I'm gonna hunt you down. Someone someone call bullshit on it, please, so I can so I can get up in We all have one of those friends that tells us facts that we spread, and then we're they're not real facts, so I relate. Oh, classic. So anyway, thank you for joining me. You're from, Intrigue Media. Don't you give us a bit of rundown as to what you guys do? Yeah. For sure. More simply put, we, specialize in high quality lead generation, for anybody in, like, the home improvement construction space, and, yeah, really on the lead gen side. So some people will call us for, like, branding and things like that, but our main focus and we can help with all of those things. We have a team of about 30 people, but we found our niche in the home improvement construction space really on the lead gen side. So if anyone just comes to us for, like, brand visibility or any of the fluffy things, it's not really our jam, but the lead lead generation is. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. So one of the reasons I really wanna have was looking forward to chatting to you, as I mentioned offline, is we do very similar thing in the Australian, and New Zealand market. And, And, yeah, if you could put our heads together and come up with some see see what see what concepts in there resonating well, because essentially, we're we're in that lead gens. But, I mean, we we too will do we'll build websites and things for them. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's key to the lead gen side. But Correct. Exactly. Yeah. In in that ecosystem of search, it's it's important. But, yeah. So this should be a fun a fun conversation for sure. I know we've talked where we're the topical statement is the 5 common marketing mistakes that affect tradespeople and home service businesses. And I think, I definitely have something to contribute to on this one, which I hope we'll be aligned with. We'll see. Yeah. I'm excited. Yeah. So have you guys always been targeting the trades? Probably we've been around for about 17 years, and I'd say for really honing in on that niche in the last 6 to 7 and then, like, like, you know, tripling down a little bit more in the last few years specifically just because we ended up just having more and more clients in that space, and that was where we could really win for them. So probably similar I'm not sure if this happened for you too, but a lot of marketing agencies, when you start, you're, like, kinda marketing to everybody. But the whole thing, if you're marketing to everyone, you're marketing to no one. It's what we would tell people about, but we weren't really practicing what we've reached at the very beginning. So we would take on clients, like, all over the place, but then what we found is by, like, specializing in it, we could learn the common problems, all the baseline, benchmarks and stuff so that we could really just start improving these campaigns and and and getting way better results instead of trying to, like, Rubik's cube and fix all the other problems of the many businesses that do exist. So, yeah. And, also, people in the space are fun to work with, so that helps. Yeah. We're we're actually a bit of an anomaly because we've only ever we when we set up, we've only ever done trade, but I used to be a tradesman. I don't I was gonna ask. Yeah. Formally a plumber. Oh, yeah? So That's amazing. Yeah. So this, yeah, it's kind of what I know, but I agree. It's fun. It's fun working with the with with with trade tradies as we call them here. Instead of, like no offense. We can work in the insurance space. We're actually kind of good at it, but it's just not as fun. They the this isn't the niche, so they won't hear me say that. Sure. So, yeah, I'm I'm really keen to see, I know we've got 5 5 topical points here to to run through, and if we end up on tangents, that's fine. Yeah. Because I suppose maybe I'll start with some of the, the observations that we say when we bring new clients on board and some of the some of the key things that, they probably aren't doing and don't understand Mhmm. When they come to us. But the big the big the big reason they typically they come into our ecosystem is because they have a high dependency on referrals and word-of-mouth, things like that. Yep. And in the interest of scale, you can't scale that. And so the when they come to us looking for lead generation, the the normally, anyway, not a not a 100% of the time, but in most cases, the focus is we need we wanna generate more consistent, you know, quality loads. Yep. But off the back of that, and this is actually something that we're gonna be we're gonna be doing some podcast on with a, financial, coach of mine soon with business is not fully understanding and comprehending, when they come out of that world of warm and fuzzy, warm traffic and referrals, and, they don't understand that now that you're in the marketing space and you've got to actually have an allocation for marketing budget and give you that. And it's kind of and it's kinda foreign because I've never had to do it. No. That is the biggest leap I find. Yeah. That's right. And and and now and we we sort of have to take the clients on this journey where they understand, okay, well, you can get to this this goal, but you need to spend this money to get to that goal, you know, and it sort of becomes full circle, but it's very foreign Yeah. When they when they come out of that world, and it's kind of a little bit daunting. And truthfully, some of them were like, oh, this seems like a bit of a stitch up. You know? They think it's we try to rip them off or something, but it I know, but it's because they haven't had to do it before, but it is really that thing to to your point to scale it and to take it to that next level. And then also the idea that they have to pay, and these leads are gonna be a little bit colder than their warm referral ones. They also have to factor in, like, what the conversion rate's gonna be is also an interesting one. What it curiosity, what what is the percentage that you guys recommend for, like, a marketing budget? Do you have have a range? It it sort of depends on the size of the business and the vertical they're in. For sure. You know, for some of our, like, builders that do huge, you know, projects. For sure. You know, they they can land 2 jobs and that's they're done for the year. Mhmm. The one job sometimes. You know? Mhmm. And so they don't often need as as high percentage, but, like, we typically recommend within so we only work with project based trade businesses at the moment. So bathroom, kitchen renovations, solar electrical is a really big one for us. Roofing companies, and we sort of say 5 to 7% Yeah. Is a is a good percentage to hit growth. Yeah. Whereas if they wanna kinda stay put where they're at, you know, then that's more like a 3 3 to 5% sorta conversation. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. We're very much in line. I just was curious. I was like, in in Australia, is it is it different? But we're about the same. Yeah. Like, 2 to 2 to 5 is usually a good range, or if they really wanna grow, then, like, can be upwards of 10 if it if they need to do. Of 10. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. I mean, we got some clients to do, you know, is it, like, literally but I in in fairness, they've sort of been with us long enough. They understand the process and they've seen it roll out, and then they're like, okay. Well, now we can kinda double down on this and Yeah. We can we can because they they get it, you know, but, like, it's hard for someone that's new when they come on board, and they're like, oh, we just it's just it's very foreign to them. Mhmm. For sure. Or or people that, to your point, have all been based on referral and, like, don't really have a website and they need a lot of foundation laying, then sometimes it's on that, like, upward side of just, like, laying the foundation I find in that 1st year because you're like, you don't have really anything in place for us to work with. And and, funnily enough, our program is called foundations for that reason. Oh, really? Yep. That's amazing. I love that. Well, I think we're very aligned already, so this is good. Yeah. Sounds like it. That's it. Excuse me. Yeah. So that that's I mean, what is it it's kind of the same sort of conversations you feel you're having over there in the space of, yeah, people wanting to have a model that's a little bit more scalable? Yeah. For sure. Yeah. I find that, like, the biggest pain points when we come to like, people are coming to us is that they've had, like, word-of-mouth. They're feeling a bit of a slowdown, like, obviously. Has have you guys experienced the same boom that you like, over, you know, the 2020 to 2023 era? And has it is it slowing a little bit right now? It's hard to say, to be honest. Like, I think it might be I I hear from clients that it's slowing down a little bit Mhmm. But I I don't know. It's hard to say because they're just they're all they all seem to be doing pretty well on the lead gen side of things. So I think the the conversation fastly evolves from lead generation into sales strategy. Yes. Which is also amazing and a conversation we have all the time too. Yeah. Just, like, optimizing your budget. Because to your point, like, the main one is when people are doing most word-of-mouth, and then they have to get used to the marketing budget. And they're like, I wanna scale it and take it to the next level. Or there's people that are working with marketing companies that maybe aren't, like, delivering in terms of, like, return on investment or, like, tracking or they don't know what they're getting and they're just trying things all over the place is another big pain point of people coming to us to get some, like, actual strategy and a consistency of lead flow like you were talking about. And I think I I think that return is is an important, like, conversation because, I mean, we were guilty for this for years as well. Like, we would we would run SEO for clients and all the reports are showing green and because it was working, but they weren't on the front page and they weren't getting the leads. Yeah. But look at all the reports are green, you know. So people come to you and they say, oh, you know, we we want SEO, not actually knowing what they really want is leads. Yes. And all the vanity metrics that exist that are so easy to get, like, trapped into, and people are like, well, I want more likes and I want and I'm like, well, that can be good and that can be helpful in some sense, but, like, do you want leads? Because that will be what's most important for you. Can you can you take likes down to the bank and cash them in? Yeah. It's a very good question. I think I'm gonna use that exact statement. Yeah. So I think there's I I mean, I I put this down to, I suppose, a level of ignorance, which is not which is not necessarily anyone's fault, but it's just the fact that they're not used to it. You know? No. So understanding these dynamics is is really important when you're moving from a a certain model that's been working to get them to where they are, they're moving into a different model, which is absolutely not gonna be even remotely similar. And part of that is very much the the conversations that they're gonna have with these people and the cadence that needs to happen in order order to even have that conversation from a cold lead. You know? Like it's And just the and even the things that are available now to be able to track things much more specifically. Because we did used to have to talk a little bit more in, like, aggregate data of, like, quantity of leads and, like, where they were coming from. But now it's like you can see exactly where a lead came from, what campaign it was, what it turned into. Like, there is much more availability to us now to, like, use those tools, but some to your point, people aren't in the space. Like, just like I would know nothing about plumbing or landscaping, but I can get leads for it. It's just the reverse of that. And then to your point on the sales side of things, I do find that that's, like, a common question I'm having with more and more people because what we were I'm not sure if you experienced this, but you're, like, hitting the lead cool. We're, like, this is great. And then we get together and they're, like, it's not not converting, and then we start drilling into it. Then we turned on things like call recording and stuff to try to find out what the quality of leads were over the last few years, like, that we've had this tool available. And what we've discovered in, like, the subset of that was just people, like, weren't answering the phones or they had other people on their sales team answering, and they thought it was being done a certain way, but people just answer phone like, hello? And it's like, hi. Is this so and so company? And then basically being, like, almost turned away and stuff. So I was like, oh my gosh. There's this whole thing of, like, you fill a marketing funnel, but if you're spending money on leads and it's not getting captured by a tight sales process, then it's just a waste. Yep. And I think as well coming into that warm traffic oh, it's coming from warm traffic or coming into cold traffic where they don't they don't understand. And we get this all the time where clients will get leads come in, they'll call them, but I'll get an answer, that blade. Yeah. And I'm like, you got like, since we have, like, a really specific cadence that we, like, take these leads through now with clients. And we're like, it has to follow this process because it can take, you know, up to 9 plus, you know, we, we, we even, even, even for us, like, what one of my sales guys, Stacy, a couple days ago, he goes, that was it could took me 15 contacts to get this guy onto a meeting. And and that's common. Like, I think the common number correct me if I'm wrong if it's your side, but, like, I feel like before it used to say, like, 7 points of contact, and now I feel like it's getting closer to the 15 side of things. And I don't think people realize that, so they're just, like, the follow-up side of things. I'm like, you're paying for this lead, and then it just right. Gets turned away. One of my clients told me that one of his salespeople that he sends most of his work. It's a landscaper, and it's, one of his, like, main girls, like, designers, and she has a 10% closing rate. I was like, I have to generate you so many leads in order for you to get any business from that. So we were, like, talking about different sales strategies. So do you actually take people all the way through to the end for for yourself? All that super cool. We're trying to work on on doing that or, like, or Yeah. A call cent like, call center has a bad, like people don't like the sound of that. So I'm like, I don't really like calling it that, but it is something like could we be, like, a friendly voice that answers the phone and do some, like, follow-up for them or at least, like, the training side? Because it is so key. Yeah. It's been it's been a huge shift actually. Like, we just because cause I mean, I mean, I'm looking fairness to, I suppose a lot of the listeners and viewers out there, when you come into this dynamic, it's, it's actually a lot of it's quite time consuming in order to manage the lives the way they have to be managed. And, you know, when they're up on roofs and they're swinging hammers and they're climbing ladders and they're doing all this kind of stuff, you know, it's like, it's not it's not convenient. But I always say to clients, this like, the success for this will come at your inconvenience. Mhmm. Yeah. Like that's, that's why we're talking here. Otherwise just keep doing what you're doing. Yeah. That actually is a good way to look at it. Yeah. Yeah. So like the, and and, but it's the reality, you know, and and and the other thing is, I suppose it's, that's not their often their sweet spot. Some of them, by the way, are really good at it. Some are great. Some of them are better at just doing their But everyone's guilty of it, like a blind spot. Right? Like, you're good at what you're good at, and then some times you just don't realize until you have, like, a 3rd party or somebody else come in. It's just helpful having, like, a second set of eyes sometimes. Yep. Yeah. So it's been super valuable being able to just place someone that can do all the lead management for them and essentially book meetings. So that's been really, really That's really cool. Okay. Good to know. It's a model that we've envisioned that actually can work. Yeah. Yeah. No. It definitely works. So I know you put here in the notes, we're talking about a few things. The first one, engaging the wrong party to customers' brain. I'd love to dive into that because I think that ties heavily into the advertising, mindset and advertising space. Something we put a lot of emphasis on with, like, client ads and our own ads and all sorts of stuff is just making sure that, you know, we're we're really resonating with that message. Yeah. It's all it's kind of tied in, like, the Simon Sinek start with why idea of, you know, if you can lead with your purpose and why you do the things that you do and you'll attract the people that believe what you believe, and then you can get out of the game of just, like, fighting on price. So it's around trying to dig into, like, what makes you. And it this kinda ties into, like, one of the other ones that we talk about too is, like, talking about the customer and what's important to them, but also, like, really the the core part of our brain is the why of why we are motivated to do what we do. So we try to dig into that through, like, a pretty intense session at the beginning before we start working with our clients to be able to, like, message that way so that you're not just, you know, you're not just another plumber. You're not just another landscape company. Like, there's there's reasons that you do what you do and why you tick the way that you tick, and you should be proud of that and message that so that people will be attracted to that. And then you get clients that love you and believe what you want, like, believe what you believe and then wanna pay you more money. They like working with your team, and it just becomes this, like, bit of a momentum. Right? Yeah. Huge a huge part of, I think, this journey, it sounds like we're pretty aligned with that too. Like, we call that their unique mechanism, and we essentially, like, deconstruct what they do and then package it up so that it's make it to differentiate or like it's how you how you guys different to every other company in the vertical. And and part of that is, like, it's just telling that story, building that trust, building that rapport, showcasing that expertise, and just stuff, which again, truthfully is kind of uncomfortable. It is. Especially if you're asking to do content. Yeah. But you know what? Again, like, if you want a different result, you do something different, and this is this is why we're here. Yeah. I know. And a lot of people are like, oh, just just say we do what we do. But I'm like, if every if one person comes to your website and they come to your competitor's website and there's nothing else different, then the only thing they're gonna base their decision on is price. So, trying to dive into that. And it is uncomfortable because that part of our brain doesn't have vocabulary to it. It's all, like, fuzzy. So when you ask people those questions, we have a set of questions that we do, which is, like, super simple just to try to, like, simplify Simon Sinek's thing, which is, what do you do? How do you like, no wordsmithing. Just tell me what you do in the most simple form. How do you do it differently than your competitors from, like, how they experience it? A lot of times we'll get, like, quality or communication. It's just, like, very vague. So, like, trying to dig into, like, exactly what that is. Like, are you sending text when you show up? Are you sending, like, images of the jobs, or is there, like, a warranty that backs that quality? Like, what's the tangible things that you do differently that the client would experience? And then when we get to the last two questions, it always makes people uncomfortable, and they're like, I don't know. We just do it. That's how we are, which is why do you do it that way and why is it important to you? And people always struggle at that stage, which is fair. And that's the point is just to, like, fight through that uncomfortableness and and try to get to that answer. And it's usually something to do with, you know, you've experienced something that wasn't that and you wanted to do it differently. A lot of people have, like, broken off and started their own business because they were working somewhere that, like, didn't do the things they wanted to do it that way. So, usually, there's some pretty cool stories that we can dig into with people. Yeah. We have similar who, what, why, where, and how. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. That's super cool. Yeah. It's funny. It's, I think as well, like, this ties into, especially with the paid advertising space. When when clients coming out of that warm traffic model, they need to understand sales cycle and sales length and how valuable content and things like that can be in the ecosystem of that sales cycle with that lead coming back. Because we see it all the time. I mean, especially because we work with project business. Right? So Right. Their average average ticket item could be anywhere from, like, quite literally 2 weeks. So the sales cycle could be anywhere from 2 weeks up to 3 or 4 years. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And so that it's it's really important that they, you know, they capitalize on that opportunity to educate and nurture. Nurtured along the way too just because they don't convert right away. Like, that's the other thing we hear on the sales side. Like, people just won't they'll just be like, oh, they didn't they weren't qualified at this point, and they just, like, release them back into the wilderness. I'm like, you could have got their email and then sent them, like, nurturing drips for a while, and then they might wanna come back later because they had a bad experience with another competitor. But, again, to your point, it's just, like, drip campaigns and emails and those type of things that can support a marketing plan just sometimes aren't aren't known. So it's a super helpful tool. Yeah. It's it's, I always say this to clients. Like, if if a if a lead comes in as an opportunity, opportunity is created, that opportunity doesn't go ahead right there and then. It doesn't mean the lead's bad. No. It just means right there and that, an opportunity is not that not right for that person, but the lead may still be good. It just needs they need time to digest things. Maybe they've got a level of ignorance around anything from logistics through to pricing or whatever it Or the timing might not be right for them and they decided to put project off, but they wanna do it in the future. Like, there's so many different things. Exactly. And to your point, like, you said somebody you have to follow-up 15 times. Like, some people just need a couple nudges. Well, it's true. I mean, no one answered their phones today. No. Like, if you call my mobile, I'm not answering it. If you call it twice, I'm not answering it. If you call it a 3rd time, maybe it will. But probably because I'm worried it's like the kids have done something to school or something. Yeah. That's never that is one of the when we ask, like, the point of difference, so many times people are being like, I pick up my phone, and I'm like, that is actually a real point of difference now because a lot of people don't. It's hard to market that, but yeah. I know. It is true. Those permission to play marketing. Yeah. Trustworthy, reliable, or Oh, I know. I always say that. I'm like, you can't say you're trustworthy. Or, like, yeah. What happens if someone says trust me? You're like, oh. Yeah. I'm gonna steal your wallet. I'm like, why do you have to say it? That's so suspicious. Yeah. Yeah. So the, that, that messaging and really understanding, I think you mentioned it, like extracting, and we talked about it before as well, like figuring out what your clients actually want, like what is the actual thing they're looking for? You know, we work with a lot of, solar businesses, solar electrical, which is probably not as big over there as it is here, but, you know, the, like, when when businesses come to us, they're often just trying to market the fact they do solar and solar panels for this price and blah, blah, all this kind of stuff. And like, if you don't have a pain point, like the, but the client is looking for some sort of energy reduction or that they're after something that can help them save money or reduce their costs or something like that. You know, you guys gotta get to get to the actual problem here, not the not the thing that does it. You know? Yeah. And that's the whole, like, not talking to your like, the specific customer and, like, just because a lot of people, what they do instead of talking about the customer's problems, they'll just talk about themselves, like, as the company. But, like, as much as I'm sure they're super nice and most of my clients are amazing, I'm like, people don't care about you. They care about the problems that they're experiencing and and how you're gonna help, like, solve their problems, not that, you know, you've been in business for 20 years. Like, maybe that'll help support it, but they wanna know that you understand, like, the issues that they're experiencing. And we've talked about, like, the a little bit of the sales process and, like, the formalities of it. But I think what like, our experience is the the way that you can really help a business scale is by deploying processes that can remove any one individual from having to do the thing. Yes. And especially in the early stages, in most cases, it's the business owner. Mhmm. Like, the first thing we try and do is get them out of the out of taking calls. Like and the only way you can really do that is with the system in place because you need to be able to train people up on that system. So they don't have to do it anymore. And I feel like that's kind of an undervalued, or maybe like, people don't really understand the power of that concept until they're in it, and they're like, Great. Now I don't have dues anymore. Yeah. And you but the they're like, well, I just know it. But if you don't if you have the processes and you actually document it, then you can train. And then to your point, that's how you can scale it. Right? And it seems like a simple concept, but it's scary because they it's their baby, and they have to, like, pass it off to someone else. And I find the owners are the ones that are mostly tied to that out of the gate at least. And I think in most cases as well, like, the that process that they've got needs to be refined to be adapted to the new system and the, the cold traffic model and that kind of stuff, because that, you know, they're so good at those conversations when they're coming from their friends. But like when it's, you know, when it's a whole, someone who's never heard of a leader lead. Yeah. You might have to ask a couple more questions. Yeah. Like it's a, it's a very different conversation, you know? And so I think that sales process is really is really important. Like, it's pretty much the first obstacle that, like, we'll see every business run into after the leads leads are coming in every time. And it's usually and I think maybe that's why more and more market companies are tying it into sales because we were the ones that feel the pain of, like, like, these leads aren't good. These leads aren't good. But you're, like, it could be a lead problem, and we will look into that. Like, the quality of lead, but also to your point, I'm, like, it could be other elements of this funnel. So tightening those both up is super helpful. And, like, it's also, again, a little bit of a blind spot too because sometimes people don't real like, they think it's working fine because they've been doing word-of-mouth and referral marketing. But then when they're getting more, like, cold leads, it's like, oh, I need, like, a more specific process. Like, didn't realize that these leads were falling through the cracks or, like, follow ups weren't happening. And, like, these designs or plans or whatever were getting sent off and, like, into the abyss and, like, no no follow-up again. Right? Mhmm. Yep. Yeah. But I mean, it it is the only way really that you can that you can scale. It's the like, like it or not, you just can't scale those referrals and more, more traffic to, to hit traject. Like 1 month you'll get 5 referrals and next month you'll get none. Yeah. Yeah. It's impossible to build up growth. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And then it's not and not having control over a lot of people to like, the inconsistency and also being like, I just don't know. Like, things are good now, but, like, will they be good tomorrow? So, like, adding extra verticals to to protect yourselves in those times is super helpful. Yeah. Sure. Or I think as well just, you know, one of the big issues that the businesses we face have is we just don't have the team to deliver on the work. Right. And I'm like, that's sure. But, but the problem is I can't, I can't get the team because there's no consistency in their growth pattern. Right? Yeah. It's like the chicken or the egg thing. Like, what do you do first? And I'm like, it's a good problem to have. You can also tailor your marketing back slightly. Like, I'm like, it's a it is a problem granted if you get too influx and you can't actually support it. But at the same time, if you're providing a service and you're niching and and attracting the people that believe what you believe, they're likely willing to wait a little bit longer to be able to work with you depending on what the project is. And then you get to be able to select the clients that you wanna work with, and you can be a little bit more picky too. So I'm like, it is a problem. Things can be tailored back slightly, but also you can then have the amount of leads that you need to help, like, scale your team and start, like, building and scaling on it. Right? Yeah. That's right. And that conversation of scale we find is is is not always more. Yeah. You know, we we have it's it's like a lot of our actually, I I I probably say probably 50% of our clients truthfully, like, their version of scale is we wanna be doing less projects, but more high value. Yes. So their version of scale is I wanna scale back on these, you know, smaller jobs and just scale into the bigger ones, which means we're doing less projects. Yeah. But then that comes to, like, getting more quality projects and also filling your funnel enough that you can be busy enough and then be more selective of the jobs that you're High high tickets, better better profit margins, you know, like All of that. But that that that's a luxury that comes with, like, an abundance of options, you know, when you've got those conversations coming in. And and abundance of conversations, and there will be lower quality ones, but then you have the opportunity do I want this to be a filler project and fill it because it makes sense? Or, like, I can just say no to it as well. The other thing I find on that front too, and it's something, again, so simple, but sometimes it's just a bit of a blind spot is and it's kind of in line with, like, messaging and stuff, but is your website and stuff speaking to who your audience is? Like, I've had some clients come to me and be like, I I'm not I'm getting leads, but they're not the quality I'm looking for. And then we'd pull up their website and their marketing, and it's just, like, images that aren't in line with their a client and Yeah. Copy that's not in line. Like, a high end property maintenance company we were working with was getting all these leads, but they weren't quality at all. And I'm like, you have just, like, generic small homes all over your website. I'm like, you wanna be in a state properties. You have to scare off some of the smaller ones and, like, make it feel like when I have an estate that you can do my project for me and, like, are gonna be, like, the high quality that I'm looking for. So, that's something small. I'll just, like, take people's websites out, and it's like, oh, yeah. I guess that makes sense. I was like, would you wanna come to you? But, I find that helpful. In in relation to, like, goal setting and that whole transparency around reporting and things like that, what are some of the observations that you say? I I find when we go out and do presentations and talks, one of the questions we'll ask is, like, do you have a marketing goal? And peep most people don't raise their hand. Maybe a couple people do. And the people that do will be, like, I wanna get more leads as an example. And then when I ask the follow-up question of how many leads would you like to get? They're like, well, I don't really know. I just want more. So it's more of a subjective piece, and they don't actually have a clear goal. And if you don't have a clear goal, then you don't know what you're shooting for. So at the end of the 2 things. 1, at the end of the year, you don't know if it's successful or not. But worse, you don't know if you're off track or on track as the year is progressing. So, typically, it'll just sneak up on people, and they'll they won't hit what they wanted to. But they don't even know what that was. So they have no way of doing it. And then they don't have the tracking set up to be able to actually track to the goal are the two things that I find. And when those those two pieces are in place, so cost per lead goal or how many leads do you wanna be generating on a monthly or annual basis and then divide it out, cost per acquisition cost, anything that's very tangible that can be measured that your marketing team or your marketing partner can track on a month to month basis to be like, this is working, or this is completely off track. We need to change route or make an adjustment to it. That's what I find people are missing for that, and they feel as though it used to be how it always was where people would try marketing. What's that saying? It's like, I spend, like, 50% here and 50% there. The problem is I just don't know what 50% is actually working. But now it's not like that. There is so much tracking that exists, and I just don't know if people understand how valuable those tools can be. One of the tools that we use frequently, is called WhatConverts. Do you guys use that at all? My I don't, but, Tyler, my team does. Yeah. Yeah. So it's it's an awesome tool, and it allows us to be able to see exactly where the lead came from, what the lead was, the transcript of it if it was a phone call or the form that it's attached to, and then be able to track quoted well, one, is it quotable or not quotable? If it was quoted, what's the quote value and what's the sales value to it? So then we can open this up with our clients and show, you know, of the 10 leads that came through, you quoted x amount, and you actually got a return of, you know, 3 times, 4 times, 5 times return on investment of what you you spent. So or or not. Or the opposite way, and it tells us what we need to change to be able to help get them the return on investment. And I feel like there's so many people that are just trusting and being like, I I'm spending my money, but I don't know what I'm supposed to get back. And then you're just wasting it because you don't really know what to improve if things are off track. Yeah. I think that's also why there's so many, it's so important for, like, like listeners and viewers out there to understand, add like the budget and how that, how that affects, like in relation to your the not the volume of leads that you're gonna get and then understanding what how many you look needs leads you need Mhmm. In order to convert a project. Yep. And we've got good aggregate data for clients that come on board with, hey. This is what you typically will need to spend in order to get these many jobs. Yep. It's on the, like, wow. That's quite a lot. I'm like, well, not really. In the grand scheme of things, like, if you we run the math on this, but this is your this is what you're you should be closing in business, and this is what you're gonna be spending to get it, which is within around 5%. You know? Yeah. And then actually being able to run those numbers, but it's not this, like, estimate or wondering what's gonna happen. I'm like, there's real you can do calculations to figure out exactly how many leads you need based on, you know, a very conservative, like, conversion rate, what your average sale is, gross margin, and all of those things, and then being able to make a calculation of what the leads are that you're gonna need to generate to be able to hit that. And it seems like it can be a lot sometimes, but other times, it's like even conservatively, you if you close, you know, 5 to 10% of these, you're gonna be covered. So and plus. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So I I think there's there's a there's a big responsibility on our shoulders to help people understand these variables because it's inevitably, if I don't understand it, it just that they they end up getting disgruntled or upset and the the reality is they just didn't understand the dynamic of the situation. I know. And we get that's the other thing. We get so many calls about just people that have had been burned, unfortunately, in the past, and it's same as many of the industries that we work within. Because that's why we do podcasts and shows like this because it's great. If we get a client, awesome. But, ultimately, we're like, if we could just, like, elevate this to help everybody be able to ask the right questions so that they know if they're working with the right team that's gonna be able to have their back and then provide them the data. Because just like I said, I don't know plumbing and landscape and all those things, but I know the questions to ask for marketing. If other people have those, then they can understand if they're getting what they should be out of their marketing dollars. An interesting an interesting thing that we find clients that that our clients find useful is, I've done some videos in our training portal about the difference between ROI, ROAS Mhmm. Yep. And then, like, where that where where these all fit into, like, the operational expenses. Right. You know, within the business and helping them understand that and give them a bit of clarity because it's, again, it's kind of new where they come to us. I don't, don't really know what ROI. I mean, I find ROI as well can be a very, what can be a bit of a variable. It's actually a fun exercise. We work with clients on building what ROI looks like to them because they might wanna incorporate things like vehicle costs and Sure. What are the actual cost to generate this, you know, to to generate this sale, like, encompassing. Whereas ROAS is a bit more clear cut, which is easier to measure from an advertising point of view. Yeah. And and being able to measure both those things and then show it so that you can track the goal and so that everyone do accounting do accounting slightly different sometimes. But we try to do, like, return on investment on gross margin dollars Yeah. As much as possible just because some people get because if you just do it on revenue, you can it just doesn't. I mean, it doesn't work that way. Well, the the the thing the other thing that we find, like, which is interesting with that exercise is helping people make sure they're pricing and they're making money. Yeah. Because a lot a lot of them when they come to us said they're not. They're too cheap. They don't know it. Just telling people to raise their prices. How many times I've had that conversation? I'm like, raise your price. And you just run through the numbers and you go, you're you're not making money on this. Yeah. It's too cheap. Like, oh, we need to charge this to be competitive. I'm like, do you actually though? Like, I argue that you probably don't. Yeah. And also if you're leading with your why and and messaging to who you wanna work with, they'll probably pay you a little bit more to be able to work with a company like you, right, instead of it just being a price game because it's just not a fun place to be. So I think it's really important that people understand those numbers and understand those, like, those metrics. But then the and then all the things that fuel them, but there aren't lagging, you know, the, the leading metrics that fuel those numbers, you know, not the lagging metrics, like how much cash do we do this month? Like it's not really the point that people need to understand the, like, what are the actual lead metrics that add up to that? And so much of that is things that, you know, like like sales process and conversion rates and like those kind of things Yeah. Which is kind of after the leads been generated. You know? Yeah. That that is a good conversation too on the lead and and lagging, and it's important to measure them all. But to your point, if we can focus on the leading ones, then we can see faster if we're off track. Because if those are off track, then likely the rest is gonna feel the impact of it. But that's super cool that you have that process all the way through to sales. Like, we have it pretty tight but we're working with, like, integrating their CRMs and that's another thing. Like, do they have a CRM? Some don't at all. And then if they do have a CRM, how do we integrate that with tools like what converts so that we can start getting way more clear transparency on things like ROI? It's paramount. I mean, it's part of our program. We set every one of our clients up with, with our with that with the the hub, which is our CRM, and we, we won't work with them unless I've got it. Oh, very cool. Just because it's all tracked internally. We're headed in that direction as well just because we've seen it all, and we're like, you you just lose, transparency. And we'll get, like, some of their data, and we can get access to their CRM. But if we have full control over it, then to your point, you can just see it all the way all the way through. Just simplifies everything. Yeah. And and it's it's great for them. Well, that they'll eventually although, initially, it might be a bit of a learning curve for them to embrace it and adopt it. But Embrace the marketing sales and CRM side. Yeah. It's a lot all at once, but it is so tied together. Well, I mean, essentially, the like, it's a it's like a sales and marketing system, really like it's sort of encompassing it, but it is in fairness to them. It's, it's something that I have to learn. It's new, you know, and it's on top of what they're currently doing until the point where they can be removed from that to focus more on this. Yeah. So it's, you know, it's not always as Kinda tying it back to what you said about getting them out of the sales side of things probably so that they can focus on Or or whatever it is. I I, you know, you hear a lot of you hear a lot of this talk about, you know, business owners, trade business owners, get off the tools and all this kind of stuff. But the reality is for a lot of these guys, their time is better spent on the tools because they're not trained in doing the other stuff. You know? Yeah. Or yeah. Or recruiter hire for it's kind of hiring for the people that your weak spots or your blind spots. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So oh, interesting. Well, no. It's been this has been a great chat. Is there is there anything else you think we should cover off on? I don't I'm just thinking I think for the most part, we covered a lot of it. I guess, like, the benchmark side of things, and I think we kinda touched on that. So one of the big things that we see is, like, no industry benchmark, so you don't really know where you're comparing. So if there's one thing to have the goal and set it, then be able to see where you're trending towards it. But how do are you competing against others in the industry in the space? So making sure that you are working with a marketing company that does specialize in niche in what you guys do so that they understand what they should be hitting. You know, like, what are the proper keywords that are gonna get you the best return on investment? What's the, you know, conversion rate? One of the things we tell people to check is conversion rate on a website. Right? So, like, how many people are coming to your website and actually converting into a lead? Typically, we wanna see at least 2%. We strive over 3. And then most of our actual websites are closer to, like, 5 to 10% on that level. So if you can get that, if you can even get the 3%, it's much better than some websites we see that are 0.5. So you have to, again, the funnel side of things fill your funnel so much more if you're only converting. So kinda to your point at the very beginning, the website being so key to that, because if it's not built in a way that's gonna convert, then you could be spending money on marketing, and it's just not converting because people don't know what to do once they get there. But yeah. So I'd say that just like working with somebody who has those industry benchmarks and then also asking the questions of, like, do I own my assets? Do I own my website? Those type of things just so that, people know what they're getting into when they're they're working with marketing companies. Oh, man. There's so many clients that we work with that have been sucked into some proprietary software or web development platform that they can't get out of and their hands are tied. And every time they wanna change 3 words, it's $300 or like just ridiculous stuff. Seems like such a great idea because it's way less money upfront, and it's just like a monthly, but it's a monthly forever. And, yeah, we see it see it all the time. And even we'll go into audit people's accounts, and we won't even be able to get access to, like, Google Ads because they won't own that and all of those things. I'm like, you're paying I'm like, you're paying money for someone to manage your stuff, and they're telling you you don't own it. So I think it's just like asking the right questions so that you know how to avoid those situations because I see them all the time, unfortunately. Yeah. I think owning that owning your data is the biggest thing. Like, there's so many Yeah. That happens all of especially with Google Ads. There's so many, like, shonky agencies. It'll just I like that word. Not give them access to it. Yeah. It just try it drives me crazy. I know. I just because, essentially, when you take it over, you're gonna start from scratch. You lose everything. Yeah. And and we have, like, benchmark data to be able base it on, but it would be great to have all that historical data. And if you paid for it, so I'm like, oh, this kills me. But it's honestly I'd say I don't know how much you see it, but I feel like we maybe get access to Google Ads 20% of the time. Oh, really? Yeah. It's bad. Yeah. Most Yeah. Most companies won't release it, which I find crazy because I'm like, you're paying for it. You're paying into that. And a lot of times, you've paid for, like, setup and monthly fees. And, also, some people don't even know what their Google Ad spend is compared to, like, management. So they're just like, I'm spending this money, but I don't know where it's going and those type of things. So, yeah, we some people that maybe are in a spot where they wanna work with us yet or in in a spot where their company is big enough to work with us, we'll just give them, like, a checklist of things to ask just so that they whoever they are working with, they're they're in good shape at least. I reckon we should do a annual check-in podcast, Vanessa, and see what's I love that idea. Yeah. I know. I'm like, I I really enjoyed this, and I'm like, what's happening in Australia that I can pull this through? Basically, you just confirmed a bunch of stuff that we're already working on. So I'm like, this is great. Yeah. Yeah. We'll do an annual jacket. I love that. And so for you listeners of yours out there, if you've got any questions or you're not not certain about anything, then just, you know, reply in the comments where you see this come through on social or emails or whatever it might be, or the podcast itself, YouTube, whatever. But yeah, I think in closing for me, the, the key takeaway is that, I would encourage you guys to get your head heads around, when you do go down this path of wanting to invest in a, in a marketing that can help you predict and forecast like a, like a scalable model, you know, help you get to where you wanna go. You do need to have clarity around the number side of it. Like, what does it actually what do you need to invest in order hit that? Because that really is a mathematical equation. We can just break that down and say, spend this to get that. And it should play out also be willing and aware and truthfully try to get excited about the fact that you're gonna have to do something new and there's gonna be some different things put on your plate and you're not gonna like them, but you know what? Like, you'll like the outcome. So stop the whinging and get it done. Yeah. Exactly. So, they're like anything, right? Like people don't like change. And, you know, when you've got, especially when you've come from a model that is working quite well, and you're like, this is great. Everything's peachy here, except the fact that we can't scale. You know? And then you're like, okay. Let's add scaling, but, you know, to get that, there's gonna be some pain that comes with it. So suck it up. Just get it done. Suck it up. I like that. I'm gonna use that. And to push through it too because once you do, then it becomes much better. And it won't be immediate either. That's the other thing we tell people as well. You know, like, it's like a process and we're working on it and refining it initially. So some people think it's like, Oh, I'll turn on and everything will be perfect. It's like, well, you have to it's a feedback loop, right, as well. So, yeah, I think a little bit of patience and to your point, excitement of the the newness and scariness, and then you can get through that that dip to the other side, and it's it's pretty fun. Well, listen. It's been great talking to you, Vanessa. Hope I let you get on with your evening. It's getting light over there. Yeah. Well, thanks for having me, Matt. Kids will be beating the door down soon, I'm sure. Yeah. Yeah. They're with that, but yeah. Okay. Anyway, I'll have links to all of your, website and stuff in the show notes. So if anyone wants to get a hold of Vanessa from Intrigue Media, head across to the show notes in the site.com, and there'll be links to everything across there. But, your website is Intrigue Media dot Intrigue Me dotca. Yeah. Intrigue Me dotca. Yep. Intrigue me. Got it. See, play on words. It was from a long time ago. Awesome. Thanks so much for having me. Absolutely. Well, thanks for your time, and we'll chat again soon. Yeah. For sure. Thanks, Matt.