Values Rich Environments with Dr Séamus Conboy

Welcome to another Season of Teachers Themselves! Season 3 opens with a wonderfully open conversation between our host Ultan Mac Mathúna and Dr. Séamus Conboy, the Director of Schools at Education and Training Boards Ireland (ETBI). 

Séamus takes us through his journey to becoming a passionate educator and advocate for multidenominational schools in Ireland, from his upbringing in Knock, County Mayo, where he honed his interpersonal skills, to his progression into leadership and innovation. 

Séamus shares the pivotal moments that led him to a prominent leadership role in education. He considers the critical balance between passion and practicality, and how mentorship played a vital role in his career development. The discussion highlights the importance of trust and vulnerability among colleagues, as well as the unexpected opportunities that arose from temporary leadership roles, which ignited Séamus's passion for school leadership and policy influence.
 
Explore the challenges and successes of transforming Irish education through the establishment of Community National Schools. Séamus discusses the shift from religious-based education to a more inclusive, multi-denominational ethos, and the strategic process involved in shaping a unified educational policy. He also introduces the "Goodness Me, Goodness You" program, emphasising values like care and inclusion, and reflects on the cultural richness these schools bring by celebrating diverse religious and cultural identities. 

This episode offers a comprehensive look at the evolving landscape of Irish education and the efforts to create inclusive environments for students and communities alike.

Don’t forget to like and subscribe, leave us a review and share it with colleagues and friends! Your feedback informs the show.

You can follow us across our social media channels –

Instagram

Twitter

LinkedIn

Facebook

If you have any thoughts on our episodes, or suggestions for future topics, email Zita at zrobinson@dwec.ie
Or take a minute to give us your feedback: Listener Feedback

Oh – and don’t forget to book that CPD – dwec.ie

Teachers Themselves is a DWEC original, produced and created by Dublin West Education Centre produced by Zita Robinson.

Transcript

Speaker 1 0:18

Fáilte stach and welcome to the Teachers Themselves podcast. I'm your host, Alton MacMahona. This podcast is brought to you by Dublin West Education Support Centre. We're located on the grounds of TUD Talla, serving and supporting the school communities of West Dublin and beyond. Welcome to season three of Teachers Themselves. Episodes this season feature some great conversations with the passionate educators who contribute to your lives as educators and school leaders. These are people who have dedicated their careers to improving the educational outcomes of children and to enriching the education system.

Speaker 2 0:53

We make our values very explicit. We ask of our schools, in our patron's framework, to make sure that the walls, the school environment, tells you what the values of the school are, that every child is cared for, that they're loved like, that you know so those values. You're going to end up in a values-rich environment.

Speaker 1 1:09

Welcome to this week's episode of Teachers Themselves podcast. I'm joined today by Dr Seamus Comboy. Seamus, a native of Knock County, Mayo, is Director of Schools in Education and Training Boards Ireland, ETBI, and I'm delighted Seamus came to meet with us today because Seamus has a huge profile in Irish education and a man who is well known to many people up and down the length of the country for a steady hand at the helm and a sage source of advice for principals and teachers all throughout the ETB section and beyond of Irish education. You're very, very welcome, Seamus.

Speaker 2 1:55

Thank you very much, Alton.

Speaker 1 1:57

Seamus, I ask all of our guests on our podcast where are you from and how has your home place shaped you? So you're from Knock County, mayo. Could you tell us a little bit about how Knock shaped Dr Seamus Tomboy?

Speaker 2 2:11

I'd be delighted to. Yeah, I'm a very, very proud Knock man, mayo man, and Knock, you know, is somewhere I go back to an awful lot. My parents are still there, a brother is still there, was there for the first 21 years of my life and really, really formative place to grow up. Obviously, people sometimes don't believe someone lives in Knock, you know. They think it's like Disneyland, it's somewhere that people go to but nobody actually lives in. We do live there and I guess Knock in lots of ways, my family.

Speaker 2 2:38

You know those shops, those religious shops in the main street of Knock, so that my mother has one of those and her seven brothers and sisters all had one each. So they all are in the same line of business selling very similar stuff. That's where we all grew up, working from a very young age in the shops in Knock, you know. So that was obviously quite a formative experience. Now, the irony of that and my current role in promoting multi-denomination education we might get to later on.

Speaker 2 3:00

But Knock is a great place, I, you know. When I think about it there was a couple of pubs that we frequented but it was, you know. You had a lot of intergenerational friendships there in knock, small rural place. You know my parents were quite sociable, our family, so there was lots of cousins, aunts and uncles. We all hung out a lot, socialized together, so there was a really good intergenerational vibe about it and that remains. So it's it's. You know, my great-grandfather was on the witness of the apparition, so look at lots of interesting little things there, you know, and in family folklore.

Speaker 1 3:29

So I love it's a place I return to with great fondness still it sounds like a wonderful place to grow up and to be surrounded by so many members of an extended family gives you, I suppose, gives you a route to, and confidence to spread the wings a bit wider then exactly, exactly.

Speaker 2 3:45

I guess part of my role now is trying to sell a vision for multi-denominational education and you know there was a lot of uh sales involved in the shop as well. So you know, I think it actually, you know it's amazing, you know it gives you, I guess, confidence to deal with a lot of different people. I mean a lot of different people come to knock and always have and uh find great joy in knock I mean even myself around the grounds of knock. It's a very peaceful place. They keep it immaculately. It exposed us from a very young age to a lot of very different people, people with different needs, people who come to knock for different reasons and you're dealing with them from eight, nine years away. You know we were always in the shop talking to different people. So it was a great training, I guess, for going into teaching funny phrase you're set, you're setting a vision.

Speaker 1 4:25

I suppose people are not setting a vision for generations, but anyway. So you decided to go into teaching. Can you explain to me why you went into teaching what you know? Was there a significant adult who you said, right, that's teaching for me. Or what you know? What set you on that journey to Pat's?

Speaker 2 4:45

Yeah, I mean it's funny because my own family mostly, and even my siblings, work in the Like. That's teaching for me, or you know what set you on that journey to Pats. Yeah, I mean it's funny because my own family mostly, and even my siblings, work in the private sector. You know my parents, as I said, my mother still has a religious shop and my father is a wholesaler and they kind of encouraged me anyway to go into the public sector. You know, they said, you know I could see them working Saturdays, sundays, all hours of the day.

Speaker 2 5:02

But also Knock, I mean Knock National School, like when we were going to it. It's phenomenal, it's a phenomenal school. We had phenomenal teachers. You know real love for the Irish language. We were in all sorts of competitions around drama music, so we had an incredible team of teachers in Knock National School.

Speaker 2 5:18

By the time I got to St Pat's there was 11 people from Knock in St Pat's, seven people from Knock in St Pat's. You know there was more people from Knock than Dublin in St Pat's when I got there. So I think that speaks an awful lot to our experiences of primary school. And then we were welcomed back with open arms when we were doing teaching practice and you know it's funny to have gone back. Most of the teachers that taught us were still there when we went back on teaching practice. There was groups of us going into Knock National School on TP and you know to see it from both sides, being in their classrooms. Obviously they inspired us to go on and become teachers. There were such pillars in the community. I guess there were such strong people that most of them live locally. They were hugely invested in the parish and in the community so they were just completely inspirational.

Speaker 1 5:57

So you said I want to do that.

Speaker 2 5:59

I want a bit of that. I want to do that Exactly.

Speaker 1 6:05

It's funny. I was chatting with Jacacinta kit as part of of this series of podcasts and she had said that years ago the notion of the call to teacher training and the merit of a school was based on the amount of ex-pupils who got the call to teacher training. Using that as a standard, knock national school was knocking it out of the park.

Speaker 1 6:23

That's for sure, that is for sure, yeah so you went up the paths, you qualified as a teacher, you did the usual, you did a couple of years in in Dublin and then you spread your wings a bit further yeah.

Speaker 2 6:34

So I spent two years in St Fiechers senior national school there in Beaumont. I've done my final teaching practice there, fell in love with the school as well, and so it was great to have that opportunity and went back that September as a permanent teacher and spent two very happy years there and then decided you know, another couple from NOC had moved to Kuwait years before that and they were always encouraging me to you know, spread your wings, give it a go, you'll learn an awful lot. So then I went to Kuwait and taught in a new English school, primary school, which was a very British system, and that was a huge shock to me. I mean, at 23 years of age, heading out there by myself, I was the youngest teacher there in my school, by a long shot, and I guess you know when I think about that time. You know, apart from the travel and meeting diversity really for the first time, I remember from Knock went to St Louis Community School, went to St Pat's. These are not centres for diversity, and Beaumont at that time wasn't either. So then, to come across a totally different culture in the British school, both in terms of our pupils and our parents, but also even teaching in the British system was such a culture shock. I mean there were six of us.

Speaker 2 7:37

I had year three, my first year, and there were six of us on the team and I learned an awful lot that I ended up bringing back around collaborative planning. But I mean, I was so shocked I mean there was great stuff around collaborative planning which was super, but I would have thought it was hyper planning at the time. I remember we were doing Goldilocks for a week, you know, and that was the kind of theme and we drew out which was really good. We drew our maths out of it, our literacy, our numeracy. But I remember sitting around six adults asking, you know what would be our lower order questions in relation to this book and what would be our higher order questions. And I went, oh my god, it was just our bread and butter in Ireland. You know that we could come. I guess we were trained so well that you know the idea of planning to that depth at that time was totally foreign to me. But I like to think that I brought the best of that kind of back into the rows afterwards. So that was an incredible experience.

Speaker 2 8:21

And then I was lucky after that to come back when I did move back in 2009, I again was looking for a job and an opportunity to come up in a community national school and I'd never I'd never heard of a community national school before. It was also a junior, because they're all new. You know, it was still growing a community national school there in Dublin 15 and it only taught. I was only up as far as senior infants at that time and I'd never even applied for a job in a junior school before because I just never saw myself teaching. I'm six foot four and a half, so I guess I never had myself an image of me teaching junior infants. But anyway, I went for it and totally challenged myself and got it and that's led to a very interesting journey.

Speaker 1 8:58

Excellent, so you went in there as principal, did you?

Speaker 2 9:02

No, I went back teaching Teaching first in 2009,. I was a mainstream classroom teacher junior infants and then I spent a few years there in 2012. I was there as a classroom teacher and again, alton, like the amazing experience there. It was a new school, there was only 10 of us in the school and very quickly, huge opportunities at the time presented. I mean I had no ambitions for school leadership.

Speaker 2 9:23

I was very happy being a teacher, but then all of a sudden you have a huge voice in a new school because you can ask well, what's the policy on? And the principal said there is no policy. We're brand new. If you want a policy, go off and draft it and come to us and so on. So it was an incredibly exciting time to be in a brand new school, in a new model I mean the CNS model was only established a year before that. So I quickly became a B-post holder in the school and I guess that opportunity wouldn't have been afforded to me for a long, long time in a more established school. So it was incredible at a very young age in an Irish school to have that kind of say around policy and creativity around policy and that really began to whet my appetite then for school leadership. You know it was a great opportunity there my appetite then for school leadership.

Speaker 1 10:05

You know it was a great opportunity there. And what would you say to somebody who'd say to you now, well god, you're only a few years out of school or out of pats? What would you know about writing policies? Or what are you bringing to the table? What were you bringing to the table for policy writing for not only a new school but, as you say, a new model of school? What was there to ensure a safety net under the best will in the world, energies of a young, vibrant teacher like that?

Navigating Leadership in Education Journey

Speaker 2 10:29

no, it's a great question and I guess it's striking that balance. The likes of me at that time, young, enthusiastic but inexperienced. You know, I had obviously a couple of years in st fiora and learned an awful lot in quake, but ultimately that was still very limited to a couple of years. Luckily there are other people on the staff that will be able to kind of, you know, curb your enthusiasm or kind of shape that enthusiasm. It's a challenge I met again later on as a principal because I've taken on very enthusiastic young teachers. But you have to have that balance, otherwise it's all ideologies and idealism that goes into policy. That's not very implementable in practice. So I guess I brought energy and passion. That's not very implementable in practice. So I guess I brought energy and passion, but somebody else is there to kind of go again in a very kind and compassionate way, guide me along the road to reality.

Speaker 1 11:12

Maybe because it was so new and pace was so fast. You know that collegiality that naturally grew from such energy allowed for, I suppose, critical friends on staff.

Speaker 2 11:24

It's really funny you say that. I was just thinking about this the other day when I started teaching, and even in Kuwait, if the principal walked into my classroom I'd nearly clam up. At that time I was like I'm afraid of getting caught teaching badly or something. And we quickly in Sklodronia CNS, where I started, and we I don't know because it was so small and everything was so new we really quickly developed a culture of trust and so, like we used to be in and out of each other's classrooms going why are you good at teaching? I was really good at teaching Irish, so people come into my room to see that and then I'd go. Well, I'm really bad, I'm really weak at art science, I could do much better in. So we go in and out of each other's classrooms. So we were really honest and vulnerable around each other. So that you're right, it did allow for a lot of creativity, that kind of culture that was established in the school fairly quickly yes, somebody may have to say to you don't do that, you'll make a house of it.

Speaker 1 12:13

It's actually a great help, somebody tiptoeing around and then you go away and you do it and they're kind of saying maybe I should have said it to him or whatever. You know, it's great to be a part of a team where there's a bit of honesty. You know it saves you a lot of work and it saves you a lot of mistakes and it actually helps you grow a hell of a lot faster absolutely.

Speaker 2 12:32

You can only do that with colleagues that you trust and that you know have your back. They really want the best for you. So it is great, though, when you achieve that.

Speaker 1 12:40

It is um, it's very powerful you went on then into leadership in school. You saw an opportunity. Or was it foisted upon you, or a mixture of both?

Speaker 2 12:50

Yeah, probably a mixture of both. And actually before I set up school leave at the time now City West and Sager Community National School a very odd opportunity came up because another community national school opened in Balbrighan Kilcorma Community National School. So the principal was appointed and two NQTs, and in the first year of that school opening the principal went on maternity leave but the two NQTs didn't want to step up naturally into the leadership role and then because it was within that ETB system, they could advertise out internally amongst their other schools. So again that came into the school. We were told about it. That didn't stir anything in me at all to apply for it Until somebody on my team said John James, you'd be really good at that, and actually it was.

Speaker 2 13:29

Somebody on my team said John Shames, you'd be really good at that, and actually it was somebody who I kind of was surprised to hear it from and kind of really happy to hear it from. And it's just incredible the power of other people's words. Honestly I think that was a kind of sliding doors moment. She just made a comment in a team meeting, said Shames, I think you'd be really good at that, and I didn't see myself in that way and that just started a kind of domino effect of thoughts going. I wonder will I download the application, farmer?

Speaker 2 13:50

And that was just this incredible opportunity to go to a totally different school, to act. You know, just for a short while I think. I was there for six months only to try it out, to get a taste for it, see if it's for me or for not, or not. Again, it was in a startup school, a young staff, and I loved it. I absolutely loved. And so by the time I got back in May back to my own school, I knew that my horizons had expanded beyond the classroom now and kind of more into school leadership.

Speaker 1 14:17

There was a rare opportunity to stick your toe in the water. Very, very few people get that opportunity.

Speaker 2 14:23

Absolutely and you know, and to come back enthused to do it. You know I think it's so good to get. I know other people who have. For example, I know people who've gone out in the comments and people have stepped up and then if the person leaves permanently they may not apply for the permanent position. So it's great to get that taste for the role of principal and it was just an exciting role to be in.

Speaker 1 14:43

And it was over in Balbriggan.

Speaker 2 14:44

So if you messed it up, sure nobody would ever know when you come back to your office Nobody knew, and I'm sure I messed it up big time, you know, but nobody knew, as you say, and it was for a short space of time, so I couldn't do that much damage, and so it was great to come back, you know, unscathed.

Speaker 1 14:59

I'm sure you came back. I'm sure you came back with plenty in the really got you thinking around leadership and the job opportunity came up then and you went for it.

Speaker 2 15:16

Yeah, again, this happened fairly quickly because the CNSs were growing quite rapidly at that time and so then that the school was opening in City West. So the department obviously reckoned and that was beside and educate together. So there's two schools, two brand new schools, two brand new multi-d schools opening in the same building on the same day. So went for that, got that, and then that's when I think my whole experience from not kicked in again because that was like a summer on the Apprentice. So when I asked the ETP at the time, is there a list of students that have applied for the school? No, so the department tend to open up brand new schools a year or two before they're needed. That's what they aim to do anyway before they're fully needed to get the school up and running. That doesn't always work out, obviously.

Speaker 2 15:51

So I had to try and get 20 pupils that summer to get a second teacher. I was really eager to get a second teacher. To start up a school by yourself, to be teaching all by yourself just was not something I wanted. But at that point parents had already committed to other schools in the area. So I spent that summer very glamorously standing in City West Shopping Centre with leaflets and trying to get parents. You know canvassing for parents, trying to fill one classroom with 20 pupils. So that was an incredibly exciting summer, you know tough yeah, who wants to stand there?

Speaker 1 16:20

maybe your sales, your sales. Uh, experience from knock came in there. I think it did. I think it did. I had the backbone to be able to stand out and say, look, come to our school. Not easy.

Speaker 2 16:28

Not easy because I mean the school was a concept, I mean the backbone to be able to stand out and say, look, I've come to our school. Not easy. Not easy because I mean the school was a concept. I mean the building was a total building site. It was just random, it was Jim Mansfield at the time. It was part of that whole City West Hotel campus so it looked like a castle. It was going to be the classrooms that we ended up being. Classrooms were going to be showrooms for a kind of golfing shop centre At one point. Then it was going to become a college for Saudi teenagers, so the whole thing had to be reconfigured into classrooms.

Speaker 2 16:56

So I couldn't hold any meetings over the summer in the school because all the works were happening. You know, there was no uniform. I remember, like very undemocratically, picking a school uniform. It's also that I mean the back of the car was a mannequin for the summer and I, every time I had a public meeting, I'd throw this mannequin up with this gorgeous uniform that we, a few of us, chose, just so the parents could visualize something, try and concretize what this school would be, because all there was it wasn't even a second teacher, there was me and the idea of a building up the road that looks crazy. So it took um, yeah, it took a lot, a lot of persuasion did you have a lot of explaining to do?

Speaker 1 17:29

then you said that you were close by to an Educate Together. Did you have a lot of explaining to do? What's the difference? Because most people would just see well, they're not Catholic, so they're the other. So when there's already Educate Together, they say well, what's the point of a community national school? Did you spend all your time explaining that one?

Establishing Community National Schools in Ireland

Speaker 2 17:50

That was a really particularly at that time because we were so new we didn't know what Community National School was, so I couldn't really compare. So Educate Together was so well established at that point. People had a lot of assumptions around what an Educate Together was and clarity, I guess, on what an Educate Together was Community National Schools, was still very embryonic. You know, we're still working through a lot of stuff, so that was a real challenge for us. You know, at the time all we could really say was well, you know, at that time I was saying what? They don't have a school uniform and the principal will be called by her first name and we do have a school uniform and I'll be Mr Convoy and like that was the depth of and we're all multi-denominational.

Speaker 2 18:24

Now there's far more nuanced differences, a lot of similarities obviously. But there's a lot of similarities between us and a Catholic school. I mean, schools are schools Often, at the end of the day. I think sometimes we have these binary visions of multi-D and Catholic and that's just untrue. I mean we can talk about that again, but I remember even our inspector was coming in and she goes. I get a sense when I walk into the Educate Together what that is because you're struck by the no uniform and the first names and so on. But I still can't figure out what this is because it looks like and feels like, you know, a traditional school. So you know, and it took us eventually when we developed our own identity and very clear and multi-denominational equality and so on. I remember I was delighted one day, margot Dunning, when she came in she said I get it now, I can see what you are now, you know, but it took that took time, you know.

Speaker 1 19:09

Yeah for sure, even for yourselves. To work it out in your own head, I'm sure you know you had to kind of get to grips with it yourselves. You were probably building a model as you went along nearly in the early years.

Speaker 2 19:31

I mean again. So I was only was I 30 at this point. So setting up a school was incredible. But also to be involved at a national level in a far bigger question of what is a community national school. I mean the state set it up, you know, as kind of Ireland's first state primary schools. I mean, obviously the state funds all primary schools but these are the first ones to be funded and ran by the state.

Speaker 2 19:47

The NCCA was involved in developing our Goodness Me, goodness you programme, so our patrons programme. They did an incredibly consultative process because the stakes were high. This was not just another patron amongst many, this was the state itself establishing a school type. So what type of school is fit for the Irish Republic? So these were big, big questions to be involved in and that was just incredible. I mean, even though I was young, there was an awful lot of more senior geniuses around the table to watch them in action at national level, see how policies negotiated, really really wise and incredibly intelligent people around the table and we learned an awful lot from them. And you know, and they listened to us a lot. We had, I guess, gathered experience on the ground of what's needed in a primary classroom. But one thing that was missing, I guess, from around the table was primary experience. So we brought an awful lot of that to the table.

Speaker 1 20:37

So at 30 years of age, you're the principal of your own school and you're at the top table when it comes to forming a new structure or new ethos, even for this model of primary schools in Ireland, for you know a republic that's quite different to the one that was set up 100 years previous.

Speaker 2 20:57

Yeah, yeah, I think really helpful to me to compensate for, I guess, the lack of growing experience at this point. But I also started a master's in intercultural education Because I remember when we set up the City West, myself and another teacher from Skolgráinne came with me and she was the deputy principal and we're like well, what do we do differently this time? I mean, we learned so much over in Skolgráinne. Is there anything that we should do differently? And I guess for me Alton City West was very diverse. I mean, I live there now. I love City West, I'm between there and Mayo, between there and Mayo, and in our school we had around 50% Indigenous Irish families and 50% EAL learners and migrants and so on. So we had this gorgeous mix.

Speaker 2 21:36

And what I wanted to do differently in City West was obviously maintain that core value of excellence in education, that high academic standards were really important to me in that inclusive, equality-based environment.

Speaker 2 21:44

So I started that master's in intercultural education, so again being in that incredible position of doing a master's and learning all the theory at the weekends but a lot of teachers go back to school and it can be hard to kind of, you know, to get that theory into practice when, as the principal, with brand new teachers that I recruited myself and parents that were enthusiastic, you could do an awful lot with that knowledge and try it out and get people to bring them on board. You could do an awful lot with that knowledge and try it out and get people to bring them on board. So I applied it at school level, but also at national policy level, bringing all that learning that was brand new to me. I mean, looking at the whole world more critically through different theoretical lenses really blew my mind because I guess, as I said, grew up in Knock, kelsma, Patz. These are not places that require you to think as critically as you learn on a master's programme. So that was very, very helpful to me and helped.

Speaker 1 22:33

An excellent opportunity. Let me ask you just a curious one when do you get the names for the schools Colm and Gráinne and Níof and Aoife?

Speaker 2 22:42

I think at that time there was a team of the Children of Lair, so they weren't necessarily religious names. Now that has kind of changed over the years. They're beginning to be called because they're community national schools. They're beginning to be called after the communities they serve. So Caru Túil, community national serve. So Cary Toole, community National School. You know, my own school changed actually eventually from Scull Neve to City West and Sager Community National School and Scull Oscar. That changed to Lucan Community National School. So some of them like flagship schools, like Scull Brownie CNS and Scull Cullum CNS. They've maintained those names but a lot of the schools have moved in the direction of calling themselves after the communities they serve.

Speaker 1 23:17

So anyway, you got a higher calling then Seamus, because you moved into ETBI, into a very senior position really and a very responsible position. Can you tell me how that came about?

Transitioning Schools to Multi-Denominational Ethos

Speaker 2 23:29

Yeah, so for the first eight years of the Community Asset School, from 2008 to 2016, they were under the patronage of the minister that there had to be certain legislation passed for ETBs to officially take on patronage at primary level. So ETBs are the VCs and now ETBs they were always our patron in waiting. So we always had the support of the ETBs, like HR we'll talk about that in a minute but the minister was officially the patron. So when that transitioned in 2016, there were 16 ETBs across the country and they're all independent statutory authorities. So at that time in 2016, there were 11 community national schools across four of those ETBs. So when it came in to the ETB sector, they were like we need somebody to make sure that this doesn't all go in different directions in each ETB. We need somebody in ETBI to kind of support us and help us bring a coherence to all the schools, regardless of what ETV they're in. So that job came up and I saw it come up and again it wasn't something that I immediately jumped at. I loved the school that I was in again Dalton. For all those reasons. This kind of utopian situation all staff were brand you know, like recruited you know, and brand new, the SNAs, the ancillary staff, the secretary they were all incredible people. The relationship we'd built up with parents, you know, I think about it just when, the last thing they did in school as you know, paul Bear we tragically lost one of our mums and I was one of the Paul Bears at the funeral. It was that intimate.

Speaker 2 24:48

And so to leave that was a big decision to make, but ultimately I did make that decision. I missed the school, obviously, but I haven't regretted. And then that went into a whole other level of oh my goodness, what have I done? At school level, the further you get away from the classroom I mean by 11 o'clock break you know when you're teaching you've got maths done, literacy done, you're Irish and then you go into the principal's office and you're an admin principal and you're like that gets less. You're more nebulous. What did I actually get done? Done, you know, because you're reacting to stuff and you might be getting through your to-do list. And then you go into a national position and things work a lot more slowly than you're used to in the classroom. So it took a long time for me to kind of get used to how change happens.

Speaker 1 25:26

Well, actually funny shame. So that brings me straight on the next thing I'm putting on a piece of paper. What do you do all day?

Speaker 2 25:32

What do I do all day? Yeah, great question, great question. So I work at primary and post-primary levels in E2BI and there's three of us on the team as well as Elaine who's our admin support. So there's myself, there's Megan White who supports the primary side of the house and Niall Mopisha who supports the post-primary side of the house. So what do we do? So we're called in E2BI, within it we are called the Community National School and Patronage Directorate. So that's a fancy name for three of us, you know.

Speaker 2 25:56

But I guess what we do is, you know, ultimately ETBI is a representative body for the Ireland 16 ETVs and the schools and so on that they serve. So we do an awful lot of representation. Particularly in my role I do a lot of representing. So the department have a very much a consultative process around all national policy development and so they bring in the cpsma at primary level. You know there's the main stakeholders, the national parents, council, itpn, into then the primary management bodies, you know cpsma, and first between that, educate together ourselves and the muslim schools. So we are church of ireland, so we are brought around on a lot of national policies and try, and you know, influence those. So I guess to influence those. It's not just the world, according to Seamus Convoy. I need to gather data from our own sectors. So I try and do a consultative process with our principals, our teachers, depending on what we're representing them on. So, for example, the new primary curriculum framework, you know I obviously need to hear from teachers on the ground. I mean, it's so long since I was in a classroom. It's not my view, that's important on those, the five public specifications, it's the teachers, so I do a consultation with those. Then, at primary level again, obviously reconfiguration is a big part of the role there and I guess it's not only supporting ETVs in growing community national schools. Once they come over they need a lot of support. And so Megan White, my colleague Megan White, she works a lot with schools that have transitioned from Catholic in particular over to community national schools to kind of bring them through the change in ethos and curriculum and so on that comes along with that. So that's just to describe. These are the headlines. We can go into any one of them in detail. So there's a representation side. There's a growing community national school side. There is the, I guess, engagement, the media and all that as well to do with that that at post-primary.

Speaker 2 27:41

We have over 250 post-primary schools in our sector community colleges and when I came into ETPI initially you know we were doing a lot of work around community national schools and its ethos and so on. But then the question was well, what's the ethos of our 250 post-primary schools? They've been around since the 1930s and yet the VCs are managing these schools. Yet they didn't really see themselves as a patron. They didn't have an ethos like the Catholic Church or Educate Together. So the question starts being asked well, hold on. If we've got these primary schools now within the sector with this particular multi-denominational ethos, surely it makes sense for there to be a similar ethos at post-primary.

Speaker 2 28:18

But that was a lot more problematic, olson, but a lot more complicated because, unlike CNSs that were all new and that was even complex, coming up with an ethos that would unite us all, we had very well established and very successful schools that might have been Catholic in practice, non-denominational in practice and so on.

Speaker 2 28:33

So a big part of my role became trying to clarify what is the ethos of our 250 post-primary schools. So that involved a huge amount of research, consultation processes. It was a 10-year process. I joined around halfway through it and ultimately that led to the publication of what we call our Patrons Framework, and that sets out really clearly what the ethos of all of our schools, be they primary or post-primary, and how to enact that ethos. So that has been really interesting. I nearly compare it to the Catholic schools coming over officially from the Bishop over to the ETB. Some of our post-primary schools are going on a journey from being just de facto Catholic because of when they're established in society at the time, now they find themselves in more diverse settings, with parents asking more questions and so on. So then, moving along that journey towards multi-denomination as well is really interesting.

Speaker 1 29:23

Okay, how many schools have come over from Catholic or any other denomination to ETBs?

Speaker 2 29:29

To see it at a primary level. So we have 32 community national schools at the moment and 18 of those have transferred over from other patrons, mostly Catholic, into the ETB.

Speaker 1 29:39

That's a tricky process, I'd say, isn't it?

Speaker 2 29:41

It is. It is tricky and a lot of those schools have come over, luckily because of school leadership at local level. So the department has had numerous processes to try and advance this and the latest will be happening soon, hopefully, in the terms of a parental survey of all parents aged 0 to 12. So that'll be interesting to see when that comes out and the results of that. They've had other processes in the past but ultimately most of our schools haven't come through those processes. They've come from school communities themselves, smaller schools in particular that are in areas with other Catholic schools and there could be six or seven Catholic schools in the area and they're now looking going. How can we diversify ourselves or how can we offer something new to this community? So they've come looking to the Community National School and CTV. That's a lot more simple, I think. When schools choose themselves and that the principal and the board see the merit in transferring, they will bring their school community along, even though obviously there's tricky questions to be addressed there.

Speaker 2 30:36

What I find tricky about it is there's a narrative somehow, alton, that if a school gets a sense that they are being looked at in the context of reconfiguration, they feel like they've done something wrong or that they've been targeted nearly for something negative. And that fascinates me because I guess my experience at international schools is so incredibly positive. You know, I mean, not only do we have our values that we all subscribe to quality, inclusion, respect for diversity but for some reason I think people just change is really tough in schools and I guess, olton, as you know, principals, I mean there's so much coming at schools with, you know, different circulars and this year, canaltis and anti-bullying and child protection. So I guess to volunteer to do something extra that requires a lot of work is is difficult, but ultimately it's worth it. You know, I fully believe that for the parents and for for children and for teachers a lot more teachers are looking for multi-d options now as well it is ultimately worth it okay, so what's the game?

Speaker 2 31:35

For the school.

Speaker 1 31:36

Yeah, I have a school, a national school, a denominational school, and people are saying to me God, maybe we should switch what's in it for the school, what's in it for me, what's in it for the teachers, what's in it for the parents and, ultimately, what's in it for the children.

Speaker 2 31:52

So I guess when we go out to schools we've done this many times now let's say well, you know those times, those 18 times you've gone out we say our core values. So what is our ethos based around? There are five core values, ultimately excellence in education, care, equality, community and respect. So the first thing we say is these values are already in your school like these are not we. We couldn't be as obnoxious to say they belong to the etv sector and you don't do care. And you don't do that. Of course they do. Of course they do. Every primary school teacher gets into the game. We have common values. However, when the school ethos is designed around one particular religious faith, there's obviously rituals within the school day, morning prayer and so on. If you're doing it right, if you're doing it, we'd hope that our schools would implement our ethos. Obviously, catholic patrons have a legitimate expectation that their schools will also implement their ethos frameworks and so on. So those rituals, the half an hour a day that's dedicated to grow in love, the communions, the confirmations so they are things that we don't have in the Community National School and I guess it's interesting in rural communities the gain for them. We've had a lot of multi-grade classrooms transfer over international school and I guess it's interesting in rural communities the gain for them. You know we've had a lot of multi-grade classrooms transfer over and I didn't think this kind of model would work in rural areas but it's interesting the teachers in those classrooms are going. We're already so busy with the multi-grade curriculum. You know you can imagine in a two-teacher school you've got junior infants, second class and third six, and every year they're preparing one or two or a group of children for sacraments. That takes up a lot of that child's time. Every year they're preparing one or two or a group of children for sacraments. That takes up a lot of that child's time every year of their lives, even if they're not doing the sacraments. So for that to be moved outside the school day the children still make their Holy Communion and confirmation it's done after school. So that gives space back on the curriculum time. And I guess teachers ultimately they feel bad about any part of the day where children have to opt out of something you know. And so I guess sometimes I think, speaking to my own friends, many of whom still still work in catholic schools that can lead to them not really going to teach the grow in love program as often as they ought to, possibly because they don't want to create those scenarios. So I think that is a huge advantage. People get very enthusiastic about the goodness me, goodness you program, and for parents as well. Olton, you know, schools as inclusive as they try to be, and the admissions act requires all schools to put out in their admissions policies what they do when students opt out. But that's really challenging and, with the best will in the world, without extra teachers and extra accommodation, what can we really do for those children? So so there's a huge advantage, but not just for the minority. There's a huge advantage for those children who want to opt out, but for the entire school community. The values that we espouse and live by are values that the Irish public really buy into. So I think there's huge advantages there For the principal and for the board, particularly in community national schools because they're under the patronage of an ETB.

Speaker 2 34:32

Unlike in every other school, the board of management isn't the employer, it's ETB. So you know if anything goes wrong and this happens, you know if there's complaints or if there's issues. The board of management in other schools is eight volunteers that have to kind of grapple with these very complex HR legal issues and so on. That never goes to the board of management in the community national school because it's a dedicated HR department in the ETB that can deal with that. Same with the finances. There's no treasurer on the board of management in the community national school because it's a finance department in the E2B that can deal with that Same with the finances. There's no treasurer on the board of management in the Community National School because it's the finance department in the E2B that provides the principal with financial reports and so on and buildings. There's a buildings officer in the E2B that goes out and IT supports are huge in the E2B sector. So there's a lot of advantages for the principal and for the board in particular.

Celebrating Values in Educational Environments

Speaker 2 35:18

Now I say that and yet you know there is a culture shift because you don't, then with devolving some responsibilities into the ETB, you don't have full control over everything all the time, and that can be a challenge for us to get used to as well, not having full control and responsibility. It can take a while to get used to that, but ultimately you can sleep better at night because you can't get in that much trouble, yeah, which is great. What will a school lose if they went to EGB from Catholic or Church of Ireland Patriotage? That's a great question. I mean there is a loss, you know. There's no point in pretending otherwise. I mean, even when my own school changed our name from Scullan Eve Community National School to City West and Sagard C&S, there was a loss there for parents like, well, scullan Eve was very good to us.

Speaker 2 35:55

Now it's only three years old, so there's a loyalty to the school and I guess the schools that are transferring over have done a huge service to that community. So, even though the teachers remain the same, the staff remain the same, the curriculum remains the same, apart from the, the patrons program. People see that sense of loss, you know, even around the things like sacraments. You know that could have been a big part of the music, the choir, the art, the ritual and some teachers will be delighted to see that go and others will be like, well, actually I really enjoyed doing the choir for that and so on. Now all these are options again outside the school day, but it's just that sense of but this school was so good to me, why would I go into this new entity?

Speaker 2 36:33

But the schools that have transferred over Alton like, ultimately, it's not replaced with nothing. I think that's why it was so important for us to be really clear on our ethos, on our Goodness Me, goodness you program. This is replaced really quickly with something really brilliant. I mean, the CNS ethos is something we do a lot of training around. Cpd on the Goodness Me, goodness you program is a really rich program with values and philosophy and religions and beliefs. I guess sometimes you can feel you're going into dropping this to go into nothing, but no, you're going into something very rich that people really subscribe to and get excited by.

Speaker 1 37:07

Okay, so the gospel message is one of love. I used to in a previous life, when I was principal, I used to explain to parents we're a very diverse it's a Catholic school, but we're a very diverse population yeah, all over the world and all different religions. And I used to say we're a Catholic school and people would come in and genuinely be afraid that you know we'd be proselytizing and what have you? I said, look, we're not banging anyone over the head with a Bible. The gospel message is one of love and that's what we want your child to experience here in school that they'd be loved.

Speaker 1 37:35

And it's very easy to talk about that in the context of the gospel, because the word is there all the time. How do you ensure, then, that that message I'm sure it is, that that message is across in E2B schools, because it's easy for a Catholic school to do that, because the word is already there and the message is already there. It's a wonderful thing, particularly in primary, and they're leaving in their little four or five year olds to strangers. You know that the needs of the school is based on love and that child will be cared for. And you mentioned it as well yourself, dara Shams. Where do you hang that in your message to parents?

Speaker 2 38:11

It's a great question. Again. You can get the sense of it's non-religious, so you can get the sense of it's non-religious so it's kind of vacant of values and so on. So we have to make that very explicit. So when you come into our schools, you'll see those core values of, as you say, care being a big quality inclusion. You'll see that everywhere, instead of, I guess, just the religious iconography which you'll see also. You'll see religious iconography in our schools.

Speaker 2 38:34

We had the crib at Christmas but that was a space where that would alternate between different uh festivals and so on. But we make our values very explicit. We ask of our schools, in our patrons framework, to make sure that the walls, that the school environment tells you what the values of the school are, that every child is cared for, that they're loved like that you know. So those values, you're going to end into a values richrich environment and I guess in a Catholic school you might rely on certain symbols and images to reflect that. We have to be very mindful and cognizant of what we need to do to make sure that the children going to a community national school are in an equally rich values environment.

Speaker 1 39:11

The lovely phrase a values-rich environment. I'm just actually back from visiting schools in Finland. I'm just actually back from visiting schools in Finland and myself and some others who were there were struck by the lack of children's work on display on the walls and we were saying how it was really a loss for them, because it's a wonderful backdrop for children coming in every day and for parents visiting and for teachers working there Also putting them up and taking them down and making sure they're up to date. I know it's effort. It sends that important I suppose, subliminal message constantly to the children your work is important, your work is valued, therefore you're valued. I find these rich environments like that, seamus, very good.

Speaker 2 39:53

And I think what's interesting just to maybe just say a little bit more about that, you know, when I think of community national schools, as the Irish state primary school provision, you know, and the fact that we are very firmly settled on being multi-denominational and not non-denominational, so I think part of the kind of question you asked there sometimes in school communities going, oh, they're considering becoming multi-denominational, christmas will be gone, you know, and you won't be allowed to say that kind of stuff.

Speaker 2 40:21

And I think that it is important to distinguish that this is not the French, very secularist separation of church and state and so on, that it is ultimately. You know these are children. You know we want to celebrate, as you say, their schoolwork, their religious identities, their belief, identity, all aspects of their identity, and celebrate that in in an age-appropriate way. So, like what you're describing there sounds, you know, something vacant about it, kind of, you know, you know, because it's a bit messy but it's so worthwhile. So I think that is something that we're very proud of, that we are multi-denomination. Those, those aspects of the child do not get left the school gate. They are all included and and celebrated within the school day. That's really important to us, brilliant.

Speaker 1 41:00

Seamus, that's brilliant, so just before we finish up. So you're obviously a very busy man. You have lots going on when you leave the office or when you step away from the desk at the end of the day. How do you get rid of all that so you can live the rest of your life in somewhat normal fashion?

Speaker 2 41:17

Yeah, I think it's a challenge because there's so much, it's all new and trying to get reconfiguration and work at post-primary and it's all quite creative work. So your mind is busy, you know, there's no doubt about it, but I do a lot of walking, which is great exercise. And also you know I'm a big foodie, so cooking and eating out. And got married this summer myself, my husband, we have a great time at the weekends forgetting about it all, and he also doesn't work in education, so he owns a pub.

Speaker 1 41:46

So we do not talk ethos and goodness me, goodness you, and patronage and reconfiguration in my spare time, which is which is welcome it's a great help to remind somebody who's not in education because they really don't care about education or your school or whatever it is, so you just gotta park it. A very wise friend of mine actually just in the office yesterday and she said I got great peace of mind when I realized that nobody in my family cares about my school, what happens, and I just park it, which is great. Other people, you know, talk to somebody else. They pick a certain point in the road on their way home and that's it, bang, that's it yeah absolutely so important.

Speaker 1 42:27

That's key. That's key. Well look, seamus, it's been a real pleasure chatting with you. You've had a very interesting career thus far. God bless you.

Speaker 2 42:42

I wish you the very, very best and thank you.

Speaker 1 42:55

Tune in next week for another episode of Teachers Themselves. If you're enjoying this season, you can go back and find episodes from Season 1 or 2. All well worth a listen. Please don't forget to subscribe, share with colleagues and friends, leave us a review or send us a message. Your feedback informs the show. You can follow us across our social media channels Instagram, twitter, linkedin. Facebook Links are in the show notes. If you have any thoughts on today's episode or suggestions for future topics, you can email Zita here at zrobinson at dwecie. That's zrobinson at dwecie. Oh, and, as always, don't forget to book your CPD at dwecie. Oh, and, as always, don't forget to book your CPD at dwecie. Hop online at dwecie to book your CPD. Míle maith agaibh raiste. Have a great week. Slán tamall.

Speaker 2 43:51

Teachers Themselves is a DWEC original produced and created by Dublin West Education Centre.