Beyond the Diagnosis: Annette Nash & Finding Strength in Neurodiversity

What happens when the teacher faces the same learning challenges as their students? Annette Nash takes us on a profound journey through her experiences as an autistic English teacher with dyslexia at St. Declan's College in Dublin.

Annette's own early education story reflects the systemic barriers many neurodivergent students may still encounter today. The power of diagnosis resonates throughout our conversation. Annette articulates how naming her differences didn't change who she was but provided crucial self-understanding: "That awareness of difference is carried with you, no matter what you know about yourself." Now in the classroom, Annette creates the environment she never had. By openly acknowledging her dyslexia with students, she transforms potential vulnerabilities into teaching strengths. When she makes spelling errors or needs to double-check grammar rules, she models resilience rather than shame - creating what she calls "a great freedom" for all students, not just those with learning differences. 
Her insights about creating neurodivergent-friendly school environments offer practical wisdom for educational settings everywhere.

Connect with Annette on Instagram @the_autistic_english_teacher and discover more episodes of Teachers Themselves by subscribing or visiting the Dublin West Education Centre website or social media channels. 

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Transcript

Introduction to Annette Nash

Speaker 1 0:07

Fáilte stach. And welcome to Teachers Themselves podcast. I'm your host, alton MacMahonagh. And welcome to Teachers Themselves podcast. I'm your host, ultham MacMahon. This podcast is brought to you by Dublin West Education Support Centre. We're located on the grounds of TUD Tala, serving and supporting the school communities of West Dublin and beyond. Welcome to Season 4 of Teachers Themselves. This season we're bringing you conversations with educators who are doing very interesting things in the Irish education system. We've really enjoyed chatting with them about their varied contributions to classroom and schools around Ireland and we hope you'll find them as inspiring as we did.

Speaker 2 0:57

In general people with autism or ADHD or any of those difficulties where there's a total neurodivergence from the norm. You realise quite when you're quite young that you're very different and that awareness of difference is carried with you, no matter what you know about yourself anyway.

Speaker 1 1:13

So you're all very welcome to the fourth series of Teachers Themselves, and in today's episode we'll be speaking with Annette Nash, and Annette is teaching in St Declan's College in Cabra. It's a post-primary school here in Dublin. Annette, you're very welcome to Teachers Themselves.

Speaker 2 1:40

Thank you for having me, old Tan, it's great to be here.

Speaker 1 1:42

So I'm going to start off like I normally do and ask people where are you from? Annette, can you tell us a little bit about where you grew up and where you went to school yourself?

Speaker 2 1:51

Sure, I'm from Dublin and I grew up in Dublin and I went to secondary school in Dublin 7.

Speaker 1 1:57

Did you enjoy school?

Speaker 2 1:58

I enjoyed aspects of school, so I had a lot of sensory issues growing up, so the sensory environment was very challenging, um, so for that reason I didn't enjoy school and children were very cruel to me often, so I also didn't enjoy that part of school either. What I did enjoy was learning, um, and I had a nice experience in primary school, um, where I went to Catherine Macaulay school, uh, for a year and finished their two-year program in one year and then went back to mainstream school, and that experience inspired me to want to be a teacher.

Speaker 1 2:30

What was a specific teacher that you admired, or just the experience of the school itself in Catherine Macaulay School?

Early School Experiences with Dyslexia

Speaker 2 2:38

It was the fact that it wasn't a teacher. Specifically, it was the fact that they gave me the skills that I did not have. They showed me the skills I didn't have as a student with dyslexia, to engage with the curriculum and learn in the way I was so desperately trying to but was unable to at that time. And those skills got me through secondary school and into university. And if I hadn't been given that opportunity and if those teachers hadn't have reached towards me to help me engage with my learning, I don't think I would have succeeded in school. So it's thanks to them and I just wanted to, I guess, pay it forward and become a teacher to help students, especially students with additional learning needs of any kind, to engage in their education.

Speaker 1 3:18

So that time you spent in Catherine Macaulay School. If you could just explain that for listeners who might be familiar with Catherine Macaulay School. There's a school here in Dublin of much renown. Do you want to tell us a little bit about it?

Speaker 2 3:29

Sure, yeah, it's a school for students with dyslexia specifically, or at least that's what it was when I started. Now I think they take a broader range of needs, but when I went in the 90s it was just for students with dyslexia and normally it was severe dyslexia. My dyslexia was moderate and they only took me in because of testing and they took me in the scholarship. So it was unusual for them to have taken someone like of my level or ability in dyslexia into the school. But it was purely because I was trying to learn and wasn't successful and at the school they teach you phonics and stuff that in primary school they just don't have the time to break down to a certain level and because they're all kind of specialists in dyslexia, they're purely focused on addressing the need.

Speaker 1 4:13

So that unlocked a set of tools or skills for you then that you were able to bring with you throughout the rest of your education, and I suppose it allowed you then to get sufficient marks in your leaving cert to go on into college. Tell me a little bit about that, your time in post-primary school and on into college.

College Journey and Finding Resilience

Speaker 2 4:34

Post-primary school was a really unhappy time period in my life for me. In the school I went to, classes were streamed based on on diagnosis I wouldn't say abilities, because I definitely wasn't. I was automatically put in the bottom set because I had a diagnosis of dyslexia and presumed to be incapable of learning, and I faced those barriers throughout school. So my parents fought to get me into like a middle tier class and I remained in there, despite having much stronger abilities than the other students, and especially in particular areas. But they just pigeonholed me in that class because they felt, based on my diagnosis, that that was appropriate. Yet, ironically, I received no support based on that diagnosis throughout my entire schooling, and so I would have graduated in 2007. So it's not it's not a recent, but it's not that long ago either, for the lack of support I received there was no learning support. There was none of that. Basically, if you weren't in the bottom class, you didn't get any. But it's not that long ago either, for the lack of support I received there was no learning support. There was none of that. Basically, if you weren't in the bottom class, you didn't get any kind of learning support. It was just get on with things. And the teachers who taught me didn't signpost anything. So if you were answering, giving too much information, they never said if you condensed this area into these little sections, then you would answer the question better and you would get better marks. So for that reason it wasn't a great experience. And then, socially, it also wasn't a great experience, because when you're a little bit different and I definitely was you stand out and I have always stood out, for better or for worse. Um so, and that was obviously like anything with teenagers, it was exasperated in that situation. But college was much better.

Speaker 2 6:02

And in college um I start it was a bit difficult for me to get into college, actually because my school had a hiccup where they assumed because I was dyslexic, I wasn't going to college and didn't update my Irish exemption and no one in my family had been to college. So we didn't know I needed the Irish exemption re-updated and my dyslexia diagnosis, you know, reconfirmed before I was 18. So that was a barrier that delayed me entering college for one year. But when I did enter college I did theology and English because I really wanted to be a religion and English teacher. But then during that time I changed my mind and then I started in an English and history degree in Carlow. Because they were the only ones who did that course at that time, because it was a joint BA honours. So I did that.

Speaker 2 6:42

I really enjoyed that experience. A joint BA honours so I did that. I really enjoyed that experience. Once again, the school environment, socially in college was not for me and I experienced a lot of unkindness from people. But once again I know I'm a bit different but I also had one really good friend who helped me through college, I suppose. But academically college wasn't a challenge and because it was stuff I was interested in, it was very, very easy to me.

Speaker 1 7:06

I didn't even have to stay. Let me ask you there one second, annette you face challenges both from, I suppose, the system and socially, and you've managed to surpass all those challenges and you speak very articulately about that. And you speak very articulately about that how did you get the resilience for all that? Because I'm thinking now particularly as a teenager and even in college. You know you're particularly vulnerable in those years. And to have that kind of resilience, where does that come from?

Speaker 2 7:37

Honestly, I thank my autism for that. I think it's because I wanted a particular thing for myself and even though adults in positions of power at that time had told me that that was maybe reaching too high, I refused to accept that as an acceptable answer. If I gave all that I had to it. I thought, if I don't succeed, at least I tried to get there in the first place. But because I refused to take that, it just came from me wanting to reach for something and refusing to give up and I just continued to do that. But it just came from me wanting to reach for something, um, and refusing to give up, and I just continued to do that. But I did nearly give up. But then, uh two I guess people of authority and power saved me from giving up was when I was doing the PME.

Speaker 2 8:15

I found out I had autism in the PME, um, in my first year of the PME and I was like oh goodness. First of all I thought it was challenging enough. I'm not it's I know it's not unique to me to be a dyslexic English teacher or anything like it, but I thought it was challenging enough to have dyslexia and be trying to teach English. But then you add to that having autism and wanting to work in a social communication based job, I was like, oh dear, was this the worst mistake of my life? Should I leave the program?

Speaker 2 8:37

But very thankfully, um, declan and Judith, who were the directors of education at UCD, prevented me from leaving the course and insisted that I stay on and that I had what it took to be a teacher. So I guess, after a lifetime of people telling me I didn't belong in these spaces I was trying to enter, I finally met people when I was ready to give up who encouraged me to stay in that space and encouraged me to be welcome and fought my corner, and that obviously has changed my outlook. And I've met people since many adults in authority you know, principals and teachers and who they're so accepting of me and who I am and they're so supportive that it's a completely different experience than when I've grown up. So all I can say is social awareness that has developed across Ireland in the last few years has made a massive difference to people's lives and I'm very lucky to have met the people I have met so far.

Speaker 1 9:26

You spoke of. Was it Declan and Judith? Yes, so you. I suppose you were fortunate to you're unfortunate to have met Declan and Judith earlier, but fortunate to have met them eventually. And I suppose that lift up after what was a late diagnosis and we'll get to that now, because for our listeners, annette has a handle on Instagram, the Autistic English Teacher, and you're just getting that up and going at the moment, annette, I know, and there's some good stuff on it, but do you think your experience could happen today, so that the difficulties you faced in post-primary and on into college Could that happen today? Or, as you say there, have we normalised the challenges or the dealing with the challenges that people face to an extent where it's not as isolating for students anymore, it's not as challenging on an individual basis, because you feel more supported, or am I wrong there?

Late Diagnosis and Self-Acceptance

Speaker 2 10:25

I think that's a really case by case basis. I think there's been huge leaps and bounds where a lot of students who would have been left behind or felt that isolation will now be noticed for the right reasons and given the support they require. But unfortunately, in general, I don't think it would be fair to say that maybe if you were really good at masking or if you don't present in the way the diagnostic criteria is built, which is obviously around white males in particular, you get this. They think of something else, and that misdiagnosis or dismissiveness towards those symptoms can result in people still being just as damaged as they were before, despite all of the acceptance that we try and develop in our schools now. So I think it's a case by case basis. It's based on how a person presents.

Speaker 2 11:18

Like, for example, I believe if I was in primary and secondary school now, I would have been diagnosed with autism because I happened to meet that quite male presentation when in my assessment I only didn't tick two boxes of the diagnostic criteria out of everything they can assess you with. So I think I would have been caught, but I don't think other people would have. I've met so many people, especially those with autism and ADHD, because they kind of mask each other in a very interesting and challenging way. So I don't think we're quite there to meet those needs yet, but I think we will be in the future because so many people care and so many people are trying and they're working so hard to reach out and discover those students and support them now.

Speaker 1 11:58

Yeah, and I know in education centres just speaking from my own bailiwick here that you know we put on a lot of courses and you know um communities of practice and that around teachers who are helping children with autism and there's a huge demand for it. Um, and I know actually in the recent there was a recent irish times article where there was a reported threefold increase in the last 10 years in autism. So you know there definitely is a bunch of work to be done yet. But my question, my next question to you, is this, and it's something I always thought the diagnosis doesn't change anything about who you are. You're still Annette, the same Annette before and after diagnosis, be it for autism or dyslexia or dyspraxia or whatever it is. But what did you feel? You've spoken positively, really, about the diagnosis there. What was the positive experience of the diagnosis?

Speaker 2 12:51

I guess see the problem that people, especially with the skepticism some people have around labels recently and I do understand what place it's coming from and those questions are not something we should disregard either. They should be asked. But in general people with autism or ADHD or any of those difficulties where there's a total neurodivergence from the norm you realize quite when you're quite young that you're very different and that awareness of difference is carried with you, no matter what you know about yourself anyway. But the problem is, if you don't have a reason or an answer for why that difference exists in the first place, it can enable a very negative self-talk that you yourself can build up in your own head and that negative self-talk can become self-defeating and greatly impact someone's life or self-esteem or all of these things it's one of your posts on your instagram account.

Speaker 1 13:40

You know how you learn to feel about yourself. I you know. I thought that was very profound and was very insightful, really that you know how people treat you.

Speaker 2 13:51

You learned you you can interpret what they're thinking and you learn to think that way or feel that way about yourself, which must be awful, um yes, exactly, especially where, like a society, I guess, if you've autism or adhd, it's often rejecting you and people aren't coming at that from a place of um, looking for people to persecute or anything like it it's. It's a protective mechanism we all have where we prejudge people based on certain behaviors or ideas or instincts. We have to protect ourselves. It comes from an, an instinct. We have to protect ourselves.

Speaker 2 14:21

So it's not coming from a bad place in humans, but unfortunately it does lead us to reject anything that's a bit too different or a bit too unusual, that we don't know how to navigate um.

Speaker 2 14:29

So that experience, when you're getting it constantly and when you have, maybe, friends or family who will never fully understand that about you because you don't have a diagnostic label that could help explain some things, it can lead to people mistreating you without meaning to, let's say, and that just adds to that negativity you're already carrying around about yourself, about why can't you do that thing that everyone else can do?

Speaker 2 14:51

But when you get the diagnosis, preferably when you're younger, you get the skills with it Great but when you're older, what you get instead is that self-acceptance and that ability to forgive yourself for every, every time in your life where you felt based on as something negative and you start to frame it as something like okay, that was out of my control. Based on my needs, I wasn't able to engage in that area or that situation in the way I wanted, but now I have this information, I can build strategies to support myself in life and I can have less of those issues going forward. So that understanding of yourself allows for forgiveness and it allows you to develop strategies that help you engage with the world that without that knowledge, you couldn't find, unless it's by fluke or accident.

Speaker 1 15:45

It's fantastic, I suppose, attitude to take, and I think you're being very humble earlier on when you say you know it wasn't your resilience. I think there was a huge amount of resilience there and credit to you, annette, to resilience. I think there was a huge amount of resilience there and credit to you, annette. But then when the diagnosis came, you know it allowed you maybe to hang certain things on that and to say, okay, right, I'm not, you know this, that or the other, and here are solutions to help me make my way through the day or navigate my way through certain relationships or challenges or whatever it is. And that's a very, very positive experience, I'm sure, and one I suppose everybody who's neurodivergent is going through, and actually, in fairness, those who are typically non-neurodivergent. I've got that wrong now.

Speaker 2 16:26

Have all experienced it. Yeah, those with disabilities or health problems.

Teaching with Dyslexia and Autism

Speaker 1 16:30

You all go through these things and you learn to kind of forgive yourself for all the stupid things you did when you were young and times it felt foolish. Can I kind of veer towards now, annette the teacher? And you spoke there, annette, of sensory issues you had when you were younger. So obviously, as a classroom teacher and I'm thinking, ok, you're a post-primary and that's lively enough, but even in a primary I know there are neurodivergent teachers in primary schools as well how do you deal with the sensory overload and I'm thinking of particularly an infant's class at Christmas time or a particularly challenging situation. So how does, how does a neurodivergent teacher deal with that?

Speaker 2 17:08

I think the important thing to remember about teaching is it's your own kind of space to be creative and engage with that curriculum.

Speaker 2 17:14

So you have a lot of autonomy in that and a lot of autonomy in that and a lot of control in the environment you choose to create for the students and yourself. Um, so an awareness of that and an awareness of what works for you and what doesn't like. I, for example, can't stand when I get give noisy activities and the whole class start talking. I have very strict time limits on that because it's still too much information for me personally, because so what I what I do to cope with that is timing the activities with a timer so the boys know because it's a boy school I work in, uh, how much time they have to do it. But I also limit that space and I uh would vary the activities just in a different way. So it's I guess it's very controlled, a very structured environment where there's not a lot of chatter outside of students participating one-on-one with the teacher and a little bit with each other, but in those really small intervals.

Speaker 1 18:02

So you've kind of learned, I suppose, those teaching skills that we all have to develop as we go through. You know how to control a class and how to maintain an acceptable level of activity or noise, or whatever it is. Then you also have a diagnosis of dyslexia. Yes, what are the particular challenges for an English teacher with dyslexia?

Speaker 2 18:21

Spelling being a big one, I will check spelling of words because there's like reversal of letters I commonly do, or there's words that no matter, I know I'm spelling them wrong. I will write them down and I will say it's normally the E and the a in this word I reverse have. I done it this time? Because I can't tell initially but the boys can tell me because I've told them how and I've shown them how it's supposed to look. Um, normally on a computer I use assist, I use technology a lot. So, um, I guess it's just being open with the boys that I have dyslexia and I'm going to make these mistakes. And for reading, reading that can affect me the odd time, depending on how tired I am. But I have different strategies, like, once again, the technology, because I rely on it. I like the black background with the white text and I also make sure that I let the students that I teach know that I have dyslexia and that it's not just affecting someone in reading and writing.

Speaker 2 19:11

So my biggest challenge would be the odd spelling error I make or having to double check a grammar rule sometimes, but occasionally it's actually. I guess transmuting what's in my brain to my mouth can go horribly, horribly wrong, and that is also part of dyslexia. So sometimes I'll say something and it comes out a bit wrong, or I'll use the wrong word, and then I'll pause, double take and we redo it and the boys are OK pointing that out if I missed one. So, really, really it's, it's been fine and it gives the students who do have a diagnosis of dyslexia or something like that, uh kind of more confidence or uh more kind of. They take a lot of comfort in the fact that a teacher's being so open about it, because if they make a mistake it doesn't feel like the world is imploding anymore, because they see me make the mistakes and own it every single day. Well, not maybe, maybe not every day, but like you know enough that it's frequent.

Speaker 1 19:56

It sounds like number one, it sounds like a good laugh. Number two I think your openness and honesty actually unlocks a great freedom for all the kids, not just the lads who are dyslexic themselves or have dyslexia themselves, but all the other kids as well, and I say it creates a great environment in the school. You know we're always telling people. You know we learn through mistakes, make mistakes, keep going. There's no harm in making a mistake. So when the teacher's up at the top of the class saying, yeah, my mistake, there you go. Well, it's bought it back and on we go, it's no big thing, that's fantastic.

Speaker 1 20:30

We used to have a phrase in our school you know, fear of failure cramps creativity. You know it. School. You know, fear of failure cramps creativity. You know it's that fear of getting things wrong will stop people reaching outside of their comfort zone, whereas when the teacher is naming it like that and they can see the teacher just getting on with it, you know it's.

Speaker 1 20:47

It's a great, um, great example actually, and I shouldn't be talking, you should be talking, but I just had this with this podcast series called teachers themselves, because it's after a quote by a guy called John Wooden. I don't know if you know him at all, but he was an American college basketball coach most successful ever. But he was also a teacher and a lecturer in college and he said no written word, no spoken plea can teach their youth what they should be, not all the books on all the shelves's what the teachers are themselves. So if the teacher is walking the walk, you know no better example for the kids. So that's, that's uh, it's brave, but it's, it's freeing as well, I should imagine. Annette, I've got to ask you about the teaching and the school environment. So the school environment what works well in a school environment for a teacher with autism?

Speaker 2 21:38

um, yes, uh, that's a really good question and unfortunately I can only speak for myself because autism, as we know, is so varied.

Speaker 2 21:44

It's like people, as we know um, so, uh, basically, um, for me, uh, it would be the same classroom. So having to go from classroom to classroom is very disorientating and it increases my stress levels. I'm sure it does for every teacher, but for me I guess the difference is my ability to cope with that would decline depending on the day, more so. So being in the same classroom helps, notification of changes helps. So I guess my school seems to be very, very thankful. I'm very thankful for it. They seem to plan events or unintentionally maybe, even plan the disruptive events not around my classes. So it seems to be most of the disruptions don't really happen when I seem to be teaching or if there's going to be a fire drill, it's letting me know that there's going to be a fire drill, and my school are amazing for stuff like that. I guess, other than that, it's just basically people being a bit more understanding, like not being for them not to be afraid of if I make a social faux pas. Being a bit more understanding, like not being for them not to be afraid of if I make a social faux pas, not being afraid to address it with me, because I'm not going to be upset about it, I'm just going to correct whatever the behavior is and not make that mistake again, and that's great, and the staff in the school who know about it, which is probably everybody at this point, are very open to that. And then they're very like.

Speaker 2 22:53

I'm not saying they're correcting me, they absolutely are not at all. I wish they would, but I think I do things and they don't correct me because they're too polite, but they're. They're quite um understanding of me and they're not really um taking an issue with me. If I forget to smile when I see them, um, or if I don't make eye contact, um, they're, they're not. I'll still say hello, they're just um, they're appreciating that. It's not coming from a place of how I feel about them. It's coming from a place of what, how much I'm able to process in that moment and maybe people not coming at me with too many um questions quite suddenly, because that can be very difficult if I'm on a train of thought about one thing in my head and then other people come at me with other information, I I I can get quite frazzled. So my school has been amazing for understanding all of those aspects. But other than that, everything else is self-managed.

Creating Inclusive School Environments

Speaker 1 23:39

You spoke at the start there about when you went into college. First you were studying religion and English and then you switched to English and history. Do you think because, whatever it is, 85% of the schools in Ireland have a religious patronage do you think there's a special duty on schools that they make provision for everybody in the school from an ethical point of view or from a moral point of view, that that's a duty to do that and perhaps that school should step up more that, if they talk the talk of being institutions that are Christian institutions or whatever it is, that they have to walk that walk and love all the children equally. Is that a part of that? Do you think?

Speaker 2 24:21

I mean, I would hope so, because schools, as we know, are supposed to be a reflection of the society we hope to build. So, as we know, in society there is inequality for every kind of difference and the only way to address that is to normalize all types of differences and to celebrate all types of differences insofar as possible and accept the challenges and not make them like the challenges of whatever it is a poster child for that learning about whatever that difference is. So, yeah, I think if schools promote all kinds of diversity, regardless of what that looks like or what that's connected to in terms of religion, ethnicity, neurodivergence, any other kind of cultural anything, basically that that would create an amazing society. But I do believe myself, um, that schools are really trying to do that.

Speaker 1 25:09

we're just on a really long road to get there and I do think that we will get there, hopefully in our lifetime, um, for just the sake of everybody coming up behind us yeah, yeah, I, in fairness, I I do some work with, with schools from different countries, mostly in Europe, and we would always discuss the notion of the word love in schools and that, you know, if the message of Christ is love, well then love is at the center of everything we do. Now that doesn't translate very well into other languages. For a group of French teachers, amour is not the same thing as love, but they get the general idea. Of French teachers, amour is not the same thing as love, but they get the general idea. And I often think you know definitely my experience at school and I think your experience there in St Declan's and Catherine Macaulay in particular, was, you know, it was born of love and I think if we do that, we can't, you know, we won't go far wrong and I think that the example that's being shown in in Declan's is definitely one born of a very, very good place and is a great example.

Speaker 1 26:07

So, going back to that threefold increase in autism in the last 10 years, can I ask you why you think that is and what we should be doing about it? For there's going to be a lot more teachers now who are neurodivergent in whatever, if it's know another 10 years. So those two things. Why that increase of? What can we do to have more Annette Nash's teaching in our system?

Speaker 2 26:33

well, actually that's an interesting thing.

Speaker 2 26:35

I think there's a lot of undiagnosed, self-diagnosed and diagnosed but not telling anybody autistic teachers in both post-primary and primary already, because autistic people for some reason are drawn to it, and I think it's got to do with the autonomy, special interest in creativity that schools offer and being a teacher offers, so that that's and obviously then the less, the less social pressure from the adults because you're working with children, which is not quite the same social dynamic.

Speaker 2 26:58

So, um, but I think the reason there's been a huge increase is our understanding of autism is actually evolving, so we have more autistic people coming forward and contributing their voices and their experiences, and that's enabling psychologists to understand. We have so many scientists, psychologists, all kinds of professions that are now full of people who are openly on the spectrum and they're openly contributing their experience or building research themselves. We have different series being proposed by autistic researchers and then we've got different series being proposed by neurotypical researchers, and I think maybe the best thing for everybody is if we try and meet in the middle there to ensure that more humans and more different versions of that experience are understood, so that more people are recognised for whatever difference or, in this case, for autism itself, and I just I honestly think it's the awareness it's often the parent is realising they're on the spectrum when their child is diagnosed, or you could have a close family member. There's so many kind of contributing factors.

Speaker 1 28:07

Yeah, james McLean, the footballer talked, talked about that. It wasn't until his daughter I think it was was being diagnosed. They were going through this, this, this, and he goes that's me, that's me, that's, and every one of them. So, yeah, you're right that that awareness is there, so that's an increase. So what does the system need to do to accommodate more neurodivergent teachers? Is it just attitude and making accommodations, like in Declan's, like you have outlined, or do we need to start with colleges, or do education centers need to start doing stuff? Are there steps we can take, or is it kind of suck it and see and we'll work out as we go along?

Speaker 2 28:48

can take, or is it kind of suck it and see and, and we'll work out as we go along? I think what we need to do to get a well-rounded perspective on that would be to get as many autistic voices and education working together to come up with I mean preferably a plan, uh, rather than because, like individuals, like me, we can make comments on these things, but there's only so much value we can add to that if we don't collaborate together on an overall idea. But I do think people I mean when I went to ucd in the pme and 2014 to 2016, the uh talk on what autism was um, the lecturer just kept talking about someone watching a washing machine, and that's what autistic people like to do. So we need to make sure that in universities, we have a proper understanding of autism. Uh, we need to give uh more, I guess, voice to the likes of as I am in those spaces and in order for it to become more accepting in primary and post primary schools, it's obviously just teachers themselves.

Speaker 2 29:36

If they come forward with their diagnosis, if they're comfortable to do so, of course, and feel safe to do so, that could help change the culture. So I think it's a slow shift, but it involves everybody. Neurotypicals are already willing to work with autistic people, that is very clear. So it just involves the autistic people being brave enough to step outside that space of secrecy and put themselves forward and then contribute their voice, and then we should hopefully be able to find a solution that works well for everyone. But I don't think there is a specific structure we can apply yet, unless we work together in Ireland to create one that works for our country and our education system.

Speaker 1 30:10

That's a great answer, thank you so we're just coming towards the end of things. Here I just to wrap up a couple of a couple of quick ones for you. What's your favorite thing about teaching in it?

Speaker 2 30:21

Well, I love learning. I just I have this like addiction it feels to it, where I just want to know everything about as much as possible forever, to understand human behavior, why we think the way we do, and other people's experiences, because I'm quite interested in learning about things that are different from my own experience. And in teaching you can see people with different experiences and different opinions and ideas and how they approach learning all of the time. So then that means that I never stop learning, like there's nothing I can get bored with or there's nothing that's going to stagnate.

Speaker 2 30:50

In education it's always dynamic, always changing, always challenging you. So I guess I love the diversity of it and I love working with people and seeing the young people grow up. It's quite a beautiful thing to see them figure out who they are and then go off with all of their potential into the big, wild, wide, wide world. I don't think you can get a job very easily where all of that is available to you. So it kind of prevents you from becoming too cynical because you can see that youthful optimism around you all of the time. So I guess the overall appeal is constant learning and also just the vibrancy that children bring into your life if you happen to spend time around them.

The Love of Learning and Teaching

Speaker 1 31:27

They bring that energy and positivity and, yeah, it helps keep you young. Actually, it's fantastic. It's fantastic. Thank you so much for joining us today, annette. Thank you, alton, it's been really a pleasure for me. Thank you for being patient with me as I stumbled across some things there, and you've been very generous with your time. I look forward to working with you again in Dublin West. You're putting on a double webinar for us and we look forward to doing more and more with you, annette, here in Dublin West Education Centre. Go raibh míle maith agat.

Speaker 1 32:04

Thank you tune in next week for another episode of Teachers Themselves. Don't forget to go back and find episodes from previous seasons all well worth a listen. Please subscribe, share with colleagues and friends, leave us a review or send us a message, and find episodes from previous seasons All well worth a listen. Please subscribe, share with colleagues and friends, leave us a review or send us a message. Your feedback informs the show. You can follow us across our social media channels. The links are in the show notes. If you have any thoughts on today's episode or suggestions for future topics, email Zita here at zrobinson at dwecie. That's zrobinson at dwecie. Oh, and, as always, don't forget to book your CPD with dwecie, wwwdwecie. Thanks again. Have a great week.

Speaker 2 33:06

Slán tamall, teachers Themselves, is a DWEC original produced and created by Dublin West Education Centre. Thank you.