David Gough: Leading with Love and Respect

In conversation with Ultan this week, David Gough, one of Ireland's most respected GAA referees and school Principal of Scoil Mhuire Gan Smál in Inchicore, brings us into the fascinating intersection of his professional worlds.

From the historical landscape of Slane, County Meath that shaped his early years, to the values that guide his leadership today, David shares how his upbringing created foundations of respect and equality that underpin both his officiating and educational work. His story reveals powerful parallels between managing high stakes sporting events and nurturing a vibrant school community.

"Leadership is an action, not a position," David explains, detailing how he creates cultures of respect in both arenas. His approach to leadership, with a focus on interconnection rather than hierarchy, creates school corridors "full of life, sound, singing, and laughing" hallmarks of the uniquely positive atmosphere that visitors from other countries often find so striking about Irish education.

David's candid discussion about balancing professional demands, his passion for sport, and the continuous learning curve of principalship offers wisdom for anyone juggling multiple responsibilities. 

Listen now to this conversation that reveals how respect, fairness and love, create environments where both children and communities flourish.

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Teachers Themselves is a DWEC original, produced and created by Dublin West Education Centre produced by Zita Robinson.

Transcript

Introduction to Teachers Themselves

Speaker 1 0:07

Fáilte stach. And welcome to Teachers Themselves podcast. I'm your host, alton MacMahonagh. And welcome to Teachers Themselves podcast. I'm your host, ultham MacMahon. This podcast is brought to you by Dublin West Education Support Centre. We're located on the grounds of TUD Tala, serving and supporting the school communities of West Dublin and beyond. Welcome to Season 4 of Teachers Themselves. This season we're bringing you conversations with educators who are doing very interesting things in the Irish education system. We've really enjoyed chatting with them about their varied contributions to classroom and schools around Ireland and we hope you'll find them as inspiring as we did.

Speaker 2 0:57

We belong, alton, to a very proud profession that has been around for as long as society has been around, and I'm very proud to be a teacher and a principal and I really feel that the teachers who embed those attributes in me made a huge difference in my character formation and who I am now as a person today.

Speaker 1 1:18

So you're very welcome to this week's episode of Teachers Themselves. I am delighted to be joined this week by David Gough. Of teachers themselves. I am delighted to be joined this week by David Gough. Many of you will know David from his role as a referee for GA football. But David is also a principal in Skullwear to Gone Small on the Tyrconnell Road, Ninja Corps here in Dublin and has great experience both in teaching, principalship and leadership. And indeed David leads our principal community of practice or support group in Ninja Corps for us through Dublin West. So, David, delighted to have you with us here on a very, very sunny day in Dublin.

Speaker 2 2:03

Thanks, Alton. Thanks for the invitation. I'm delighted to be asked and join the long list of names of teachers and principals that have been on the podcast Education.

Speaker 1 2:11

Illuminaries? Yeah, All of them. Very good, David. I always start with asking people about where they're from and how that formed them both as people and as professionals or as teachers. So you're from Slane County, Meath, is that right?

Speaker 2 2:29

Yeah, I always like to tell people I'm from the historical heart of Ireland and I really believe that to be true. I come from the most beautiful part of the country. I know everyone says that, but when you grow up with Newgrange on your doorstep, at the Hill of Slane, which was affiliated with St Patrick's Slane Castle, the Boyne Valley, the Battle of the Boyne 1690. I mean, it is just the most amazing place to have been brought up as a child and to have gone to school in. We were immersed in that history from a very young age and the village is one of the most beautiful villages in the country, one Ireland's friendliest place in 2019. It is just. I don't live there now and I can't wait for the time that I can move back home to the family. It is beautiful and I love going back to Slane at the weekends. I love going home to referee in Meath and getting to spend time around the village and around the club, because it is one of the most magnificent places in the country.

Speaker 1 3:29

David that is great to hear. I suppose we are very fortunate in Dublin and you're right. So many people say I'm from the nicest part of Ireland and I think when they say I'm from the nicest part of Ireland, they mean I'm from the nicest part of the world. We're that proud, which is a brilliant thing, and it's a great thing to be rooted in that and I suppose we all want that for the pupils that we teach, that they will say you know, I grew up in the best part of Ireland. You know I went to the best school in Ireland and to be really, really, really proud, because it does give you a great platform as a person to believe that and to experience that. So your family was bent into Slane. You went to school there. Where would you go to post-primary if you're from Slane?

Speaker 2 4:13

Yeah, I moved from St Patrick's School in Slane obviously has the name for very specific reasons and we had the option of going to Drogheda or to Navan. Slane is kind of equidistant between both, but we actually live on the Navan Road out of Slane. So I went to St Pat's Classical School in Navan where Brian Kennedy was my principal and afterwards the great legend that is Colm O'Rourke in Mead football only retired as principal there quite recently and it was a very large all-boys school just on the outskirts of Navan a huge GA history and I studied there for six years, five years up to my leaving cert. And then I actually repeated my leaving cert the year after we won the Hogan Cup, the year I was in leaving cert. So there was way more emphasis put on football than there was on studies, alton. But yeah, so I went back. I had the pleasure of spending a sixth year in there, you know it was as boys' schools are.

Speaker 2 5:09

they are difficult when you're at that age, but I had made wonderful friends that are still friends to this day, and you know it's a beautiful school. There's a new building there now and it has grown from strength to strength over the years.

Speaker 1 5:23

And were there particular teachers, both primary and post-primary, who would have had an influence on you For good or for bad? I think I'm more or less the same kind of a situation myself Went to local primary school and then on to an all-boys secondary. Were there teachers to you who said, yeah, that's the kind of role model for me, or that person taught me a lesson for life?

Balancing Professional and Personal Life

Speaker 2 5:43

No, Absolutely, and I could list out so many of them without going into detail. John Ryle, who started us playing football in the primary school, was from Kerry and his wife Bernie was there as well, with Hugh O'Donnell looking after the team from Donegal. Pauline Mulvaney from Mayo, who gave me my love of reading and of studying. Christine Deveney from Roscommon, who would have given me my growl for Gaeilge, and when I went to secondary school, the principal that's there now, a man called Harry McGarry, was my Gaeilge teacher for my Leaving Cert and he was a wonderful teacher and really gave me a great, I suppose, foundation in the grammar of the language and my understanding of it. I also studied Latin under Pauline Murphy and that also helped with my understanding with languages.

Speaker 2 6:26

But I suppose the greatest of them all was Clare Plunkett, who taught me English and religion and I suppose she instilled in me my sense of fairness, equality, sort of unshakable, sort of attributes that I now have, be it in my personal life, in my professional life or in my refereeing life, that sense of fairness and equality and everyone being treated equal and everyone being entitled to be, to be treated equal. And she was a wonderful teacher from Oldcastle in County Mead and recently retired as well. So I grew up in an era where, like, we belong often to a very proud profession that has been around for as long as society has been around, and I'm very proud to be a teacher and a principal and I really feel that the teachers who embed those attributes in me made a huge difference in my character formation and who I am now as a person today.

Speaker 1 7:22

I suppose you're right there in that you know that proud tradition of teaching in Ireland and maybe it goes back to what we're saying about pupils should be proud of. You know the school they go to and the parish they're from and the the advantage of that and that I suppose it's. There's a great advantage to the system in teachers believing they're in the best education system in the world. They work for the best country in the world and we're doing our bit for Ireland and we're part of a proud tradition that has helped to make Ireland the fantastic country that it is, for all its flaws. We're all very proud of it, I'd hope. But you've sectioned your three parts of your life there, david. You said you're professional, you're personal and you're refereeing life. How do you manage to balance those? Because you're a very, very busy man and yet you know, anytime I bump into you here in the center or whatever you're, you're coolest personified and you don't seem to be ruffled at all you want to ask my partner how I balance it.

Speaker 2 8:20

I wouldn't say he thinks I balance it as well as as you do. Uh, it is, life is busy. My personal life I keep personal and I believe that's the way it should be. I came off all social media. I still keep twitter for for watching ga things and tennis and matters, um, but I stay away from it and I keep my personal life personal, which is which is good for us and good for my relationship.

Speaker 2 8:42

The professional life as you know, the life of a principal. You know you're on call all the time. It's not. I don't mean or would like people to think that I'm on call 24, 7, 365 days a year, but the phone can ring at any stage and it can be a problem with someone you know accessing the hall at night time, or a leak, or an alarm, or or you know an issue with with um accessing anything, um, and you're dealing with staff members and and 700 parents with 350 kids here, um, so it is difficult. And and then you add the GAA into that and the seminars and the training and the matches.

Speaker 2 9:14

I could be out every night of the week, ulton refereeing if I wanted to. If I chose to you get the text message to do? You know, anything from a club game to a challenge match, to an inter-county challenge match, to trying to fit in the gym. So I don't fail a fitness test because that's the worst thing that can happen. And to add to that, I'm also the president of the local tennis club in Ashbrook in Ratgar. So yeah, my life is busy but I do find a balance in it. I would hate to be that person. It just wouldn't suit me. I'm not saying that it's slight on anyone else, but to walk in the door at home at four or five in the evening and not be going back out again. I like to be kept busy. I like to meet people, um, and I like to be able to help when I meet people, be that officiating a match or chairing a committee meeting.

Speaker 1 10:01

You know, it's just something that falls naturally for me well for playing to you for play, and tennis as well. Tennis is a passion of yours. I actually have heard you say that before it must have been a radio interview somewhere that you love the tennis.

Speaker 2 10:12

I love tennis. I grew up on the tennis courts in Stack Allen Tennis Club. They're about three miles outside Slane, where the house is about a 200 metre walk from the house. I was coached by a professional coach from the age of, I'd say, 10 until I was 18. I play a very high level here in Dublin. I'm playing the City of Dublin Championships next week in Charleville. I'm travelling to Manchester in July for a tournament. I've international tournaments here in May and I play all the leagues that go on around the city as well and I have to mention the coordinators of those are very good to me because at the last minute I could be pulled into an inter-county game. Despite their fixtures, they managed to fit me in and I really appreciate that Because I love it.

Speaker 2 10:52

Refereeing is something I do. Tennis is something I really love.

Speaker 1 10:56

Fair play to you, david. That's excellent. Great to have that an escape valve and to double up something you're good at and you can feel you know I'm accomplishing here I'm doing really well, because you're probably surrounded by elite sportsmen on the pitch when you're refereeing football matches and then to be at that playing level as well as a refereeing level in another sport is probably a great release valve for you well.

Journey to Teaching and Principalship

Speaker 2 11:20

I suppose when I stopped playing football it was the last time that we could be competitive, because you're not competitive on the pitch. As a referee, you're trying to keep balanced and fair playing conditions for the two teams, but I still I don't mind saying it I'm a very competitive person and ambitious. I wouldn't be in my job or where I am within the GA without being ambitious. But I don't mean ambitious in a bad way, it's just, it's part of who I am and tennis, for me, gives me that competition and allows me to fulfil those competitive needs on a regular basis and I absolutely love it. I would be lost without it because when you stop playing Gaelic and you miss out on the team sport aspect, playing doubles on a tennis court or singles allows me to be competitive still.

Speaker 1 12:06

Excellent. So that competitive spirit you have brought you to where you are in your teaching career. Can you give us an idea of why you started teaching, where you trained, where you started teaching and how you found yourself then as principal of a relatively big school now in Inchacore?

Speaker 2 12:22

I always wanted to be a teacher and that's why I repeated my leaving cert. I didn't want to do anything else but teaching and I went the back route. In Alton I studied a degree in Irish and in history which are my other two major loves in St Pat's College from 2002 to 2005. And after that, immediately I went back in and did the postgrad in education 2006 and 2007. And I was lucky enough, through the Games Promotion Officer who, who you remember and most primary school teachers will remember uh, tomás miguel of azur, tom fitzpatrick, who was in st pat's college at the time he started me referee a brilliant, brilliant man.

Speaker 2 13:02

He was secretary of common among school and taught in joseph's terranure and he got me my job, or got me an interview, in St Pius X Boys National School and I met the most wonderful principal out there, roag Dermot Lynch from Cork, and he set me on my way for 10 years teaching in the all boys school in Pius X and I loved it and I do miss it. I do miss my friends there and I do miss the community that I served there for 10 years. I had a wonderful experience teaching in the school. I taught everything from SET junior senior infants right up the way to six. I never stayed in the same class. I used to say to Dermot when the list will come around in May, just put me where you need me. And that was the agreement we had and I loved it.

Speaker 2 13:46

But the opportunity came up in 2017, 2018 to apply for Tom Fitzpatrick's job in Colostrum Fodrick. Tom was retiring and I applied for the role through the GAA. It was a triumvirate, if you want to call it that of organisations came together GAA, centrally in Croke Park, leinster Council and DCU to fund the role and I went in there initially what I thought was going to be for four years, but COVID happened in the middle of it and when we went back my role in St Pius's in 2022 and in April 2022 I left to come here to Scolwyrragan Small. I returned to Pius's it must have been September 21 and April 22, got the job here in Scolwyrragan Small and I'm here three years this month actually.

Speaker 2 14:47

In the meantime in between that, alton I had gone to do my toriacht or my postgraduate course in education leadership out in Maynooth in about 2015, 2016. And that really put me in the mindset of you know, principalship is something that I would really like and I had a great role model in Dermot Lynch in Pius's and I think I'm one of seven or eight that came in under him in Pius's that have left now and gone on to be big principals.

Speaker 1 15:13

It's funny, you know that. The other saying that we teach how we were taught. If we're lucky enough, we lead how we were led, and if you have a great principal under which you worked, you find yourself, you know, doing things the way they would have, or absolutely the same values you know vision for a school.

Speaker 1 15:32

I was very fortunate, same as yourself now experienced some great leaders and actually the primary school I attended myself where the great Fintan Walsh taught oh fantastic, fintan taught me in fifth and sixth class and St Mary's Ruffernam Correct, and if people know Tom Fitz they'll know Fintan Walsh and I was very fortunate in that school and I suppose the values I learned as a pupil I would have carried on, but you used the phrase there when you were saying when you were a teacher yourself. You said to the principal when it came to class allocation, put me where you need me. It's every principal's dream.

Speaker 1 16:07

Yes, yeah To say, oh, I don't mind, I'll go wherever. And you go. Oh, thanks be to God for that. It's a great Philip, and you know yourself now as a principal when teachers say that it's a fire relief, it is. But so, anyway, you ended up in a core. You had done the you'd done.

Speaker 2 16:34

Oh, that's a difficult one.

Speaker 2 16:36

I'm not sure that I ever assumed that I was capable of being a principal and when I went to that course I absolutely lapped up every part of it, all the different leadership domains, and I found particular interest in the law, the legal side of it and leading people in particular.

Speaker 2 16:56

And what I didn't realize at the time, that I realize now my refereeing journey was starting at the same time and what I didn't realise at the time, that I realise now my refereeing journey was starting at the same time and there is a crossover between both in that in the middle of the field I'm the leader of eight people and I wouldn't have realised that at the time, but they operate under my guidance and my expectations and with my umpire team and other officials we created a certain type of culture around how we wanted to officiate games and how we would be perceived as a team of officials going going to matches, and I suppose that transferred then into the principalship and I didn't realize it probably just happened organically.

Speaker 2 17:34

I wouldn't have realized this was happening and I find it extremely an extremely challenging and I would say it's not a position, it's an action. Leadership is an action. It's not a position, and it's all about you know, leading by example, I would say, and bringing to life your values and your attributes and letting people see that in real life and empowering others then around you to do the same. It's a hugely challenging but very rewarding position, and one that I don't regret for one minute that I took on.

Speaker 1 18:08

Yeah, it's outside the comfort zone. We get challenged and we get the rewards. Then, funny, you say it's an action and it's leading by example. It's why this podcast is called Teachers Themselves. We have a motto in here from John Wooden, the basketball, the American basketball coach no written word, no spoken plea can teach our youth what they should be, nor all the books on all the shelves. It's what the teachers are themselves. There you go, and that whole notion of leading by example you know yourself.

Challenges and Joys of School Leadership

Speaker 1 18:37

Yeah, people listening to this podcast will know if the principal is walking the walk. Teachers will say, well, fair enough, and they might even agree with you, but say, well, at least she or he is doing their bit and they're working hard and they're setting the best example they can do and they will get behind you eventually. And yeah, it's true. So, anyway, anyway, sorry, as a principal, what is now your greatest challenge? Because we're in 2025. The world is changing, mind you that you'd say the world is always changing, isn't it? But we're in the current changes. That faces. What's your challenge as a principal now, david?

Speaker 2 19:15

I would say there's a list there, alton, I wouldn't like anyone to feel that I am very comfortable in my job. I'm challenged every single day when I come into the school, be it trying to get a building project off the ground and move through the stages. It could be leak on the roof, it could be dealing with parents. Everything is a challenge in here, and rightly so. That's the way you know you should be in your job. You should be challenging because if you're not being positions and you're faced with a multitude of different situations and you're always playing catch up, trying to find out what you don't know, be that circulars from 10 years ago, five years ago, three years ago, how to access grants and funding, how to deal with certain situations.

Speaker 2 20:13

So I find that sometimes it's easy for me, I can just be myself and carry through or follow what I'm doing. But other times I need to pick up the phone and I need to ring the likes of Dublin West Education Centre or other principals in my network or friends from around the country to ask the question, because I wouldn't like anyone to think that you know, we know everything as principals. We definitely don't. I wouldn't even say I know 50% of what I'm supposed to know as a principal. So every day I'm learning. So that is my biggest challenge. My biggest challenge is finding out the things that I don't know.

Speaker 1 20:48

But thanks for the big up for WS there, david, I hope that we can help our principals and I suppose as an education centre, you know we've six principals groups, we've two deputy principals groups, so you know, we're always looking at ways that we can help out with an aspiring leaders course and all these things help because that leadership role is pivotal to the success of a school pivotal. So there you are, you're working hard, you've got your challenges, you're working hard at dealing with them. So what brings you your greatest joy in school? The kids.

Speaker 2 21:20

It's all about the children. The greatest joy is the children. It's not me achieving something here, like getting an emergency works grant across the line, or standing up in front of assembly and pontificating to parents about what we're doing for attendance this month, or how we're driving an initiative for sustainability, or, you know, putting solar panels and whatever it is. It's none of that. It is all about the children and seeing the children come in on the yard.

Speaker 2 21:48

Every morning I'm out on the yard hail, rain, snow, sunshine. I'm there to greet them all, to greet the parents, to see them smile, to see how they are, to make sure they're happy. And if they're not I mean we're in a Jesh area here you know that we're there to support them and offer a bit of love and kindness there as well. And that is the greatest reward for me. It's seeing the kids happy. You know, and once I'm happy, the staff is happy, the kids are happy, that's a happy place to be, and the corridors here are full of life, they're full of children, they're full of sound, they're full of singing, they're full of laughing, and, and that makes me happy.

Speaker 1 22:25

So that's, that's the greatest reward well, you should mention that you know the corridors and the sound, that you know the brightness of school corridors, the colorful nature of them, the noise, just the, the, the energy in a school. I was in Finland there a while back and you know it's lauded as the best education system in the world for many of the year. Not a patch on Irish schools, and I would agree.

Speaker 2 22:50

We were involved with an Erasmus programme at the moment with St Pat's and Drumcondra, with Ethna Kennedy and the Right to Read programme and the teachers come over from the reading university in Stavanger in Norway and another one in Lisbon and when they come to the Irish schools we hosted them here, they just could not get over the atmosphere in the schools and they talk about. You know their education systems and how positive they are and you know they're getting great reading scores and you know their education systems and how positive they are and you know they're getting great reading scores and you know all the metrics seems to be working for them that result in high scores. But then they don't have the children with the personalities that we have, with the life and their ability to converse with adults so freely and happily. To hear the buzz in the corridors and the brightness and all the children's art and their work and the song singing. They're just, they're blown away by when they come into Irish schools at the camaraderie and the community.

Speaker 1 23:47

And you mentioned the word love there and you're dead right. Love is at the centre of what we're doing in schools and if it's not there, we're doing something wrong, and I think that's. You mentioned community and the children's voice and how they interact with adults and you know when school is an extension of the family, like that, what a place for a child to flourish, and regardless of where they are in their home and you mentioned you're in a Dish area there. You know if they can go to somewhere where they feel you know there is love here.

Creating a Culture of Respect

Speaker 1 24:20

I am loved and it doesn't mean you're going around but you're telling them they're brilliant and you're hugging them all day or you think they're brilliant all day, no more than your own kids in the family, you know. But they are loved and if, what an environment we've made for children and you know I know out there in each corner it's going to go small. They have that, they have have that in their school and it's such a platform for them as people. And you talk about the values that they have there. So, just to round that one off, what are the values that you took from your own schooling, your parish in Slane, and that you're now either directly, indirectly, intentionally or unintentionally investing in Scolwyrdeg on small David.

Speaker 2 25:02

I'd say the greatest one is respect, and I know that might not come as a surprise to many people, but it's a respect for everyone and inclusivity for everyone, irrespective of your race, your gender, your sexuality, your height. It doesn't matter your physical appearance, if you're able-bodied or not, that everyone will always be treated the same in here and the children are expected to treat everyone the same. And it extends out onto the yard and into the community of parents, where we have parents who are single moms, same-sex parents, children who have grandparents, guardians, everyone, everyone is always treated the same and there is a level of respect in here that is expected. It is shown to the children through the respect the teachers have for one another, for our other members of staff, and that everyone either if you're the caretaker, the SNA, one of the kitchen ladies, the teacher or the principal everyone is treated the same and we've no hierarchical structures in here.

Speaker 2 26:07

It doesn't work like that. I'm in the centre or concentric and everyone else is working around like a spider web and we're all in and out. We're all interconnected and everyone is treated with respect. In and out, we're all interconnected and everyone is treated with respect, and the children see that the children are treated with respect. There's no giving out shouting in here, like that might be sometimes what they're coming from at home. So this is a place of love and respect in here, and that's what we offer the children You've voiced that really well, David.

Speaker 1 26:35

And I tell you, not only would I like to go down and visit the school, I wouldn't mind attending the school as a teacher myself.

Speaker 2 26:43

Yeah, you're welcome anytime. Fair play to you, David. We're sort of a few subs alting every now and again. So pop in anytime, I'll find you a room.

Speaker 1 26:51

There you go. Come here Just to finish off now. We're wrapping up off now and we're wrapping up. I'd like to thank you, David, sincerely for coming on to the Teachers Themselves podcast. You're somebody who has a very high profile in Ireland. I'm very proud that you're a teacher and a principal and that you're in our Dublin West catchment area, because I think you're a great example to everybody about the values you spoke about there, and I hope to continue working with you here in Dublin West and supporting the schools in Inchicore.

Speaker 2 27:23

Thank you very much for having me on Alton, and I've really enjoyed it. Go raibh maith agat.

Closing and Contact Information

Speaker 1 27:29

Fair play to you, david. Go raibh míle maith agat féinig Tune in next week for another episode of Teachers Themselves. Don't forget to go back and find episodes from previous seasons All well worth a listen. Please subscribe, share with colleagues and friends, leave us a review or send us a message. Your feedback informs the show. You can follow us across our social media channels. The links are in the show notes. If you have any thoughts on today's episode or suggestions for future topics, email Zita here at zrobinson at dwecie. That's zrobinson at dwecie. That's zrobinson at dwecie. Oh, and, as always, don't forget to book your CPD with dwecie wwwdwecie. Thanks again. Have a great week.

Speaker 2 28:35

Slán tamall Teachers. Themselves is a DWEC original Produced and created by Dublin West Education Centre. Thank you.