The men who killed for John Gotti

https://www.amazon.com/Gottis-Boys-Mafia-Killed-Gotti-ebook/dp/B07K6197NL? 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Anthony, which member of John Gotti's crew surprised you the most during your research in terms of their personality or their level of violence?

SPEAKER_00 0:07

Well, in terms of the level of violence, I would say that uh uh Sammy Gravano uh uh sort of impressed me the most. Uh he seemed to be very uh matter-of-fact about what he did or what he claimed to do in terms of violence. Uh the others were involved, but not as much as uh Sammy Gravano. He's the guy who sort of impressed me uh the most uh with his uh uh ability and uh, you know, uh a desire to uh commit violence.

SPEAKER_01 0:43

You know what's funny, when he first wrote that book, I mean, decades ago, Underboss, I was a kid. I think I was in the police academy, I picked up a copy and I read it. And then you start, all these other guys have gotten out of jail and they're on podcasts, and they kind of tell a different story as far as if he wanted something that you had, he'd be the subversive one and go to Gotti and say, you know, he's saying this about you, this blah, blah, blah, blah, but he's got to go. And it looked like a lot of the murders that were carried out either by Sammy the Bull or at his behest was because someone had something he wanted.

SPEAKER_00 1:16

Well, that was the that was the complaint about him. Gotti even complained about it that uh uh you know, he wanted if he wanted something, he would sort of put the bug in his ear, but Gotti's ear, and you know, uh a hit would be approved. But some of the hits, now he disputes that, but some of the hits that uh you know he was involved in, that we know he was involved in, uh had more to them than just that. Uh it seemed like uh certainly the uh Robert Di Bernardo uh murder, uh the certainly the Castellano murder, uh, and then you had the uh uh uh you know uh some others that really uh he was told to to carry out. And uh it wasn't because he had any particular pecuniary interests, so to speak. Uh and you know, i i it's a it's a sort of a mixed bag. I've heard both sides, and uh I know that he disputes that. I think you know, John his view is that John was jealous of him and fearful that he was getting too powerful through his business interests, which he had a lot of. Uh there's no question about it. There was also um uh uh you know, uh Louis De Bono, uh there was that indication that maybe that was because of uh uh pecuniary interest or competitive interest, but uh uh th there was a trial on that. And it I it didn't it I don't think the proof was really there that Sammy did that for that kind of interest.

SPEAKER_01 2:52

Aaron Ross Powell Anthony, while researching your book, Gotti's Boys, The Mafia Crew The Kill for John Gotti, and it's available on Amazon, and I encourage my listeners to pick up a copy, it's a good read. How did the new FBI files or previously unreleased documents change your understanding of how Gotti's crew operated in the 80s?

SPEAKER_00 3:09

Aaron Powell Well, this I got uh in doing the book, I got a gift, so to speak. It was a uh a dump of uh really not disclosed information from the government, including FBI stuff. And it really sort of spelled out how this crew was operating, how they got ensnared in the investigation, and how the FBI got deeper into the investigation. Uh it started off, uh I think the book starts off with the uh uh Sal Rogiro death in an airplane crash, and uh that got the mob agitated because there was a lot of dope in that situation, and they were worried about that the the money and the dope were going to be compromised and subseded by the FBI. So they went to Sal's house in New Jersey, you know, hand took care of it. Uh the FBI, meanwhile, was picking up on wiretaps all this chatter about what was going on. And that got the investigation deeper into the drug angle, which was much more serious, certainly for Angelo and some of the others, Angelo Rugiero. So, I mean, it was good to get those FBI materials, prosecution documents, which really spelled out w what the thinking was about how they were going to make a case. So that was really important. And that was like the thread through which you know the story was built around. So that proved very useful. And yes, there are a lot of FBI files on Gotti, particularly, that are available now. If you go to the FBI vault, they have a lot on Gotti. And that helped uh the story as well.

SPEAKER_01 4:46

Yeah, it's it's it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that Gotti's crew was heavily involved in junk, and your book does open up with the um the plane crash of Angelo Ruggiero's brother Sal, who was a notorious trafficker. Was Sal the point man in all this as far as supplying guys like Mark Ryder, Eddie Leno, uh Johnny Knig? Was he the point guy getting them all junk, or they had all their different contexts? Because according to your book, Sal was like a multi-multi-millionaire.

SPEAKER_00 5:14

Yeah, Sal was very wealthy because of what he was doing. I think that he would he was the point man up to a up to up to a point, no pun intended. He uh the others, Mark Ryder, uh John Carnigli, uh Jean Gotti, I think they had their own sources because after after uh Sal dies, he's out of the picture. In the case from about, I think 1982, Carnig and uh and Jean Gotti and the others, you know, get involved, stay involved. And that's what you know came to their uh that led to their undoing. So uh I think Sal was important in the family's operation, but he he wasn't the only one. He wasn't the only one.

SPEAKER_01 5:59

What I found fascinating about that plane crash, which, like you said, triggered a whole series of events, but one of which Sal uh Rogerio is killed with his wife, the pilot. Everybody dies on this private plane because he was an international, he was a fugitive and he was just bouncing around the country, you know, living his life. But he left behind several kids that were orphaned. And from your book, Angelo basically took possession of his brother's kids, basically took them from his wife's family and said, I'm raising him, that's it.

SPEAKER_00 6:29

Yeah, that's true. I mean, there were two kids. And um, of course, when the parents uh died in the plane crash, and there really were no remains found. There may have been a hand or something uh for the for the wife and Sal. Uh and the pilot, I don't think they found anything. Uh, if if they did find anything. Uh so Angelo took care of the kids and took them under his wing, because that's really what they needed. I mean, that they had no they had nobody else. They had the the wife's family, but I don't think that worked out uh in terms of their custody. So Angelo took custody, and he, you know, he did the right thing by his by his brother.

SPEAKER_01 7:14

So while we're on on the subject of Angelo Quackquack Ruggerio, who's a fascinating character because of his loose lips, how much of his wiretap conversation do you feel held uh hurt the family in the long run?

SPEAKER_00 7:27

I think a lot of his conversation hurt the family, and I think it hurt other families too, uh, particularly the Bonanno family. Uh I think that uh they had the taps up, and for in the duration, I'm not exactly certain, but it was for a period of time. And they had surveillance on the house, and they see people coming in and matching up conversations with uh arrivals and departures. It hurt the family quite a bit. And it ultimately uh led to the problem with uh Paul Castellano. Because Paul Castellano got wind of the fact that the tapes exist, which show Angelo and the family ensnared in drug drug trafficking and other things. And that was a problem for Castellano, because he saw that as um something that could really screw him. He could be held responsible for his crew's activity or the family's activity. And as as a top of the family, he could be held liable in a racketeering case. He he was held liable, well, he was indicted for racketeering, but not for drugs. Uh, because the old myth, the mafia, was that you're not supposed to deal in drugs. But we know historically everybody was dealing in drugs. You go back to the 30s, 40s, 50s, particularly the 50s, early 60s, and drugs were all over the mafia. Some of the big leaders, Vito Genovese, uh John Armento, they say Tommy Lucchese, although that's never really been proved, you had drugs permeating the world of the mafia, despite this so-called edict. So it was a problem.

SPEAKER_01 9:10

And you know, Anthony, um, Charlie Caniglia, I was a detective in the NYPD's autocrime division, and although I worked in the Bronx, I was well aware of him. You'd go into an office and his photo was usually on a flowchart somewhere. Right. He's portrayed as particularly ruthless. What made him stand out even amongst Gotti's other violent enforcers?

SPEAKER_00 9:31

Well, I think Charlie Cornelia, who wasn't as savvy as his brother John and wasn't as smooth and as polished and as personable, had personality problems. He was a drug abuser, he was drunk, uh, he um, you know, had problems with women, uh, and he had a lot of anger for Charlie. And he, I think he I mean, that's bad psychology in itself, right? But I think he also I think he felt he had to prove something. Because his brother is John, and John is high statue in the family, and he's not, and he has to prove himself. So that's what I think it's a question of all the psychology, the anger, the uh feeling slighted, the need to be accepted, I think compelled him to do what he almost he sounds like a serial killer. Well, you could you could argue, I mean, if the s definition of a serial killer is somebody who does three homicides um uh right, we have the Gilgo case, right, where we had eight, right? Um you know, he could almost match that because I think in in in his history, he was responsible uh for at least two or three murders that I recall. Uh and uh you know, he was found responsible. He may not have been convicted of them, but uh there was really heavy proof about that. So yeah, you could say that. I mean, if you want to say it was almost a serial killer, you you wouldn't be far wrong.

SPEAKER_01 11:07

Well, I think there were stories when when they raided that uh junkyard that he was his base of operations in Brooklyn that they found a couple of victims' driver's license and pieces of jewelry.

SPEAKER_00 11:17

Right. The the trophy, the trophy b element. Yeah, I mean that's stupid, but they do it. Um you know nobody says these guys are smart, but he had the Gotti uh Frankie Gotti's the driver who killed Frankie Gotti. He was supposedly somebody who dispatched him. And supposedly, according to the records we saw in court, dissolved his body in acid. Uh which is uh it's it's it's really used a lot, more than we know. You had that, and you had a couple of homicides uh in uh Howard Beach, and you had a a prominent car driver who healed. Uh and that was a testimony in the court records on that. So that's what, three, four? I mean some of them may have been situational, uh, but still, you know, it's a body. And it was pretty uh it was pretty wild. I don't know. Some of the other guys in the family had no uh didn't have that kind of record.

SPEAKER_01 12:22

And his brother John, like you said, John Canaglia was very h held in high statue of Gotti. He went down in that case with Gene in that junk trial. Did you c and he was also supposedly one of the suspected shooters in the Paul Castellano uh Tommy Bellotti murder. Right. Did you come across any stories of John?

SPEAKER_00 12:40

Well, I mean I came across stories whether I'm doing you know the research. Uh we know what his alleged role was in the Castellano hit, uh in the Ballotti uh murders. Uh we, you know, I we know from what I saw in some of the records I read that he did not howled John Gotti's son, John Jr., in high esteem. And if he had the he said, supposedly, allegedly, that if he had the chance, he would have killed him, but but for his father. Uh he had real bad blood. Uh he he was just a smooth guy. I I met people who met him in life, just normally, right? And he was a very suave guy, very smooth little ladies, and um, you know, he was a cut above his his brother, but two cuts above his brother.

SPEAKER_01 13:30

So getting back to Mark Ryder, who was an Italian, but made a lot of money in the junk business, probably just as much as Sal. He was a guy that was around Gotti quite a bit.

SPEAKER_00 13:40

He was, and uh he he knew Gotti. He socialized with Gotti. He was the major connection between the Italians and the black dealers in Harlem. And he recounted some in his trial, there were some really wild stories. Uh he was supposedly uh you know ordered a couple of hits uh in that connection, and uh he was a wild guy. Um his son, I think, was killed as well, one of his sons. Um and it's not something he wanted to talk about. He's dead, uh, Mark Ryder. He passed away fairly recently, I think within the last uh six months or a year. Uh but he was a strange character. He he he worked the world of the Italians and the blacks, and although he wasn't mafia uh because of his lineage, he was able to work in that world pretty easily. So he was another character who was significant in in the Gaudi connection.

unknown 14:44

Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_01 14:44

Yeah, I think one of the reasons he didn't because he died, you're right, an old man. He did over 30 years in jail. And one of the reasons he didn't get compassionate release is just what you said. During his trial, a couple of witnesses were murdered. Yes, that's right. And he was suspected, or I don't know, I know he was definitely suspected. I don't know if he was convicted in those of those murders. So the federal government said, no, you're not getting out.

SPEAKER_00 15:07

They were worried about him. The feds were because of his reputation for violence. Um yeah, every time he put in for a compassionate release, um, he was ill. I think he had cancer, as I recall. They said, no, no, no. You know, the agents are worried that he's going to come after them. Trevor Burrus, Jr. Yeah, probably at that stage in his life, he wasn't gonna come after anybody. And I don't think he had the the cloud anymore to come after everybody, because a lot of his connections were gone, or they're or they're you know, dead themselves. Um so uh I you know I don't believe he was that much of a threat later in life, but the feds carried the day, so he died in jail.

SPEAKER_01 15:45

Aaron Ross Powell, Jr. Another guy, um I I used I remember seeing this guy in the newspaper all the time when I was a kid, around the time Gotti first started coming into prominence, Anthony Tony Roach Rampino, who's who's described in your book as a colorful character. Did you uncover any lesser-known stories about him that didn't make it into the book?

SPEAKER_00 16:01

No, I think I put what I what I found in the book, I think I put in the book. Uh he was approached by the feds to uh to uh uh cooperate, uh particularly on a couple of homicides, and he just wouldn't follow up. He wouldn't he wouldn't do it. Uh they tried, they took a pass at him, he wouldn't do it. He was a scary-looking guy, you know, he was cadaverous, very thin, skeleton like face, and uh but he was a drug abuser himself. So he basically killed himself, uh basically from his abuse.

SPEAKER_01 16:33

And Anthony, how do you feel the hit on Paul Castellano and 85 come together from the perspective of the crew members that carried it out? Like how were they selected?

SPEAKER_00 16:42

Well, I think they were selected because of allegiance to Gaudi, number one, anger with Castellano, that's a number two, and probably a very strong reason. And I think you know, Castellano had worn out his welcome. Uh he was a distant disconnected boss, money c money hungry uh to to a great degree. And uh I think that Gotti, to his credit, in that world, was had the Hutzwood to put this together. And he got the right kind of people. And lucky for him, nobody really really was a fifth columnist and and snitched on him because that would have been a problem for him. But he pulled it together. And I think there was enough people who were angry with Castellano that they joined this uh conspiracy. And it and it went off. Look, today they wouldn't have pulled us off. They would have got caught right away. Video cameras with surveillance all over the place that would attract license plate readers would attract them wherever they went, right? It would have been a different story. But they got it just at the right time uh to to to make this coup uh work, and it did work.

SPEAKER_01 18:01

One of the shooters' gun uh one of the shooters' guns jammed during the Paul Castellano Ballotti murder.

SPEAKER_00 18:06

Yeah, that was Sal Scala, I believe. His gun, I think, jammed and he didn't I don't think he fired. Um and I think that uh uh you know sort of an embarrassment. But uh look, you know, he didn't shoot. Um and from Gravano's perspective, there were a couple of cops in the area. And Grovano has said that had the cops come closer to the steakhouse, Spark Steakhouse, and gotten away, he's saying they would have killed him. But the cops turned around, they went down, I think it was uh uh Third Avenue there. So nothing like that happened.

SPEAKER_01 18:46

Yeah, I see, I I from what I read, it was it was Vinnie Artuso and and I'll t um from Arthur Avenue as well.

SPEAKER_00 18:54

Right, yeah, you may be right on that. Um I'd have to go back into the material. But somebody's gun jammed, I thought it was Sal Scala. Um, but you may be right. Um we'll have to check.

SPEAKER_01 19:07

Well well, the funny thing is before I was a cop and I was an exterminator, and one of the guys is an old timer was showing me the route, you know, of where to go and do this and do that. Right. And we were on Arthur Avenue getting a sandwich. And we went and we there was these two older, well, they were older than me because I was 21 years old or 18 years, whatever I was as a kid. There's these two guys in their 40s sitting on the curb eating a sandwich and drinking the soda. And the guy was, do you know who that is? I says, No, it looks like two middle-aged guys that he goes, That's Vinny Artuso and his brother. They own Artuso's pastry. I said, Okay. And he goes, You you don't know who that is? I go, no. And he goes, He's a big time mafioso. I said, Those guys? You know, like if they were just kind of hanging out, sitting on the curb having a sandwich, but then later on.

SPEAKER_00 19:53

That's how life was. In fact, I'm thumbing through the book as we talk. Um, because now you got me going is to find I'm sorry. I didn't mean to do that to you. Well, I see him listed in my book as being involved in the hit somehow. It's okay. Um, let's see. I th let's see what we say here. Well, he's part of the cabal. Um Peter. Well, the Gorvano, according to Gorvano. Corniglia, Pino, Vinnie Artuso, Sal Scala, and Eddie Lena driven to the park. And they were part of this group of five. Uh Artusso's gun. It was later reported, Gand. You're right. Vinny Artuso.

SPEAKER_01 20:41

According to Gorvano and FBI, but Joe the German Watts wasn't a made guy, but he carried the cloud of a captain. What made him so valuable to Guardian and his crew?

SPEAKER_00 20:52

I think he um had a good business sense uh for that world. Uh he was also um uh I I think feared because I think he had a bad reputation. Now, I don't know what he may have done, not clear. I didn't get too far into that. But he was uh an important non-main member of Gotti's Gaudy's circle. And clout all over the place. I mean, he was uh respected and feared um because of who he was, his connection to Gotti and his uh in his in his business sense, really.

SPEAKER_01 21:35

What role did Gene Gotti play in the crew and and why do you think his drug operations created such tensions within the broader Dambino family?

SPEAKER_00 21:44

Well, Gene uh John's brother uh was you know, we have his certified conviction as a drug dealer. I think um uh he was trying to I think be a counterbalance to his brother John, who had some bad habits. Uh John was an inveterate gambler and just s pissing away all the money that was being earned, illicitly, you know, or otherwise, and and gambling. And we're losing scads of money all the time. Every place he went, Chinatown, uh Queens, it just was blown. So I think Gene tried to be a counterbalance to that, uh, but no success. I mean he didn't have any success. Gene's involvement in drugs was ultimately part of the situation that caused precipitated Castellano's murder. And ultimately, I think, uh in terms of the evidence that was generated, destabilized the family going forward. Gotti had a very brief sort of a period of time when he was boss, when you think about it. You know, he, okay, early 86 if you want to put it that way, to the time he gets convicted in 92, okay, he's still boss, but you're off the street and you're not really a a good boss because you're crippling. He's he's working through surrogates, uh, you know, through his uh family members, other people who visit him, uh, you know, his his son John, uh, I suppose to some extent. Um so i it he really didn't have a a good run, Gotha John God.

SPEAKER_01 23:29

Um so uh that whole thing was precipitated by the investigation that whole downfall it was a long downfall which meant that you know Gotti's reign was not going to be very long and it wasn't it really wasn't did you come across anything while doing research for your book about Gotti's Confederate Frank Lacasio?

SPEAKER_00 23:50

Yeah I mean Frank Lacasio was uh you know head of the Bronx he was a known gambler in that circle he he was kind of a was put into the role and people didn't think that he really uh was worth that position. I think Gotti took certain people in because he could trust them and they weren't a threat to him.

SPEAKER_01 24:15

So I he was look he was known in that world as a gambler I don't know if they tied him into any murders uh but uh he got convicted Gaudy yeah I think I think he just wanted an someone from another borough just to keep an eye on the different crews maybe that's why he brought Frank in that's that's a plausible explanation I think that uh you certainly had Queens uh he had certain you know people in Brooklyn um Manhattan of course he had with uh certain associates uh and others he also uh um you know you had Long Island people Eddie Lean on um so he needed you know people I think it's not it's a not a bad assumption that he needed people to balance out the boroughs uh to make sure the crews are acting right so Anthony you did a lot of research for this book and and do you know exactly or have a s a suspicion of who was involved in the murder and disappearance of John Gotti's neighbor John Favre?

SPEAKER_00 25:21

Well based on the court testimony that we saw in one of the trials um it seems as though um he was abducted for volume uh question was what happened who did it we're not entirely certain on that but we do know from the court evidence that we saw and heard that Johnny Carniglia uh Charlie Carnegia uh was responsible for disposing of the body I suspect that is when the body of Favara was disposed meaning dissolved in acid um Charlie Carnegie so the story went brought the knucklebones to Angelo and the diner and dropped it in his soup bowl saying hey it's done you know we did we got rid of the body. So I think Angelo had it all in certainly from what we we heard Charlie Corniglia whatever else I don't know. You know it's a fair game.

SPEAKER_01 26:25

Do you do you think that John Gotti got permission from Big Paul Castellano to to have that murder done?

SPEAKER_00 26:30

I don't think so. It's uh only because I don't think that uh Castellano would have wanted to sully himself with approving something like that. And there seemed to be a more of a family thing meaning Gotti's family uh in personal angst so I don't know if and it wasn't a mom thing. It wasn't a mom situation. We didn't have Favara doing something against the family.

SPEAKER_01 26:57

I don't think he would have gone to Castellan I don't think well having said that Gotti was already in hot water for all the junk trials around him and Big Paul wants the tapes Evangelio Ruggiero talking about conspiracies and stuff and they're not handing over the tapes. So Gotti really had to be rolling the dice to have his crew do a high profile off the record hit which it was in every newspaper that the guy who accidentally killed his young son in in a car accident a couple of months or a year earlier vanishes off the face of the earth.

SPEAKER_00 27:29

Well yeah I mean wisdom was the Gotti asked for never know but I think there was enough pressure on Gotti uh from people close to him to do something. See I think he if his personal pride I think his anger owned anger at that point he had to do something so he was taken out of it yeah and he was in hot water because uh all roads lead to Rome.

SPEAKER_01 27:53

Anthony please tell us the name of your book and where our listeners can pick up a copy.

SPEAKER_00 27:56

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 27:56

The book is Gotti's Boys The Mafia Crew That Killed for John Gotti and it it's it's available in all the uh usual places Amazon.com and BonesandNoble.com uh you know booksellers bookstores uh better bookstores I suppose and uh you know you can get it it's uh it's available in hardcover uh kindle uh paperback there it is see how that's the hardcover and also um I think there's an audio copy too so people some people like to do the audio so it's there I thought it was a great read and my listeners if you love mob stories and what was going on in the Gambino Crime Family and with John Gotti and his crew it's a great read. Did he Stefano thank you for spending your time with us today.

SPEAKER_00 28:44

Very good and thank you for having me. It was uh it was uh it was fun to go back over this stuff.

SPEAKER_01 28:51

Thank you. As always I'd like to thank everyone for tuning in especially my listeners in Casa Grande, Arizona, Sparta, New Jersey, Mauquisco, New York, and Kamloops, British Columbia. If you worked in law enforcement or had an interesting criminal background please drop me a note on Twitter or Instagram at VicFerroy50. If you're watching on YouTube, please hit the like subscribe and hype buttons and if you enjoy the content check out my Amazon author page just type in my name Vic Ferrari like the car where you can preview all my NYPD books for free. Thanks again everyone and I'll see you next week.

unknown 29:20

Tony