Top 100 Clubhouse - Golf Podcast
Clubhouse Special - The Cutting Room Floor - Zac Blair & David Margolis
Enjoy!
Top 100 Clubhouse is brought to you by Eden Mill, St Andrews.
Enjoy!
Top 100 Clubhouse is brought to you by Eden Mill, St Andrews.
James Henderson
0:00:00
The Top 100 Clubhouse podcast is brought to you by Eden Mill. Bring the tradition of distilling whiskey and gin back to St Andrews, the home of golf. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Top 100 Clubhouse, the ultimate podcast for golf course enthusiasts worldwide. I'm your host, James Henderson, and we're about to embark on a journey through lush fairways and breathtaking landscapes, as well as delving deep into the minds of fascinating individuals from every corner of the golfing universe.
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0:00:45
Get ready to explore the world's top golf courses through the eyes of those who know
James Henderson
0:00:49
them best. where we release some previously unheard podcast content. In this special we're jumping back to a couple of really interesting podcast guests. Firstly we return to our conversation with pro golfer Zach Blair. We continue to discuss Zach's project to build the tree farm, the importance of being able to walk the course and the surprising backstory of the tree farm bell. The second conversation is with a bit of a legendary man called David Margolis, very experienced golf traveler. He's also part of the Lockhart Travel Club and very much involved at the tree farm. So we discuss his strong views on what makes a great clubhouse shower and where you get the best clubhouse food. We hope you enjoy.
Zac Blair
0:01:33
And that was honestly one of the big things with the tree farm too, was the first couple of times I left the property, I was like, I'm not saying you could do nothing and the golf course would be great, but I think you could literally do nothing and just take the trees out and the course would be fun. Because the properties, because the land is cool. You know, and it was just like, that to me is what stood out with the golden age architects. They got to a piece of property and they didn't have a D8 dozer to knock down a hill. It was just like if the green was here and the next T's here and they have to go over that hill, they did. That's what made unique, cool golf courses. And now you can knock down that hill so there's just so many golf courses that end up being so similar to one another because you have the freedom and the ability to basically, you know, level out anything and make it just, you know, exactly what you want it to be, where those guys were like, oh this is what we have, like what do we do from here? Sure, yeah, and the big, I don't know, the big skill, we talked about a little bit earlier with someone like Tom, is, and he says it himself, and Kai and those guys say it, and obviously Will said it to you, is his skill is the routing. And you know, when he looks at a Topo map, it's kind of like Neo in the Matrix. He's like, no, but it is. And that's the thing he's great at. And he can just see it. And he said, I mean, I've asked him questions a bunch of times, and he goes, no, that's my thing. That's the thing I'm best at. That separates me from everybody else, is I can look at a topo map and I can nail a rafting. That's what Clyde Johnson was like. The way he does it is just insane. Even from someone of that quality, to be able to look at him and go,
James Henderson
0:03:27
the difference is unbelievable.
Zac Blair
0:03:29
Yeah, which I find really interesting. But then as well, you've just said, Zach, like it's all about the land. And to be able to sort of say yes or no to a project, like once they get to that level, they've got enough money in the bank that they can choose, and it's about legacy then, right? And it's like, no, no, no, I'm only gonna work on something that is very on brand for us if it's got top 100 potential. So is this a top 100 piece of land? If the answer to that is yes, I'm interested. If it's no, not for me. And that was kind of a cool moment when he kind of agreed to be in, you know, to being involved was, well, he must think that it's okay. You know what I mean? Like, cause there's a, there's another big backstory about, you know, him and Brian Schneider looking at that piece of property a handful of years ago. And, and, you know, when we, when we closed on the property, someone had reached out and said, hey, is this that property? And is this the property across the road from Holly Pond? And I was not that familiar with anything out there. And I was kind of like, yeah, I think so. And it was like, oh, wow, we looked at doing a course with Tom Doak and Brian Schneider out there five, six years ago. And it was like, OK, so the property must be okay, it must be good enough to at least warrant a look. But yeah, Tom's ability to see the map and piece holes together is really insane and that's kind of what Kai and Will and some other people like really kept pushing was like, hey, you have to get the routing right. You know, there's no like screwing the routing up and thinking that it can be the best it can be. And it was, I had like, I had a really hard time when I was trying to do it to get 18 really good holes together. I could find what, you know, there were certainly similarities in certain areas of mine and his routings. You know, there were some holes that kind of overlaid in the same place, there were a handful of greens that were in the same place coming from different directions or whatever, but his ability to get 1 through 18 being like, wow, those are great holes. And that's what I think separates the tree farm is like every hole to me is very unique, very good, awesome, fun. We're almost to the point of if you ask somebody like what their favorite hole is out there and there's 10 people in the room, you could legitimately get 10 different answers. Which is awesome. Which not a lot of places have that like strength of you know it's usually gonna be like seven of the people say it's 13 or you know like whatever. So his ability to get it 1 through 18 was pretty crazy you know I would always get stuck somewhere and have to find like you know some like whatever connector hole. Like a little filler hole. Yeah, yeah. You know, and their filler hole was 17 and it ended up being, you know, like one of the coolest par threes on the course. And then with, and Rich, you chime in on this part because Rich and I talk about this a lot, about top 100 golf courses. So a couple of years ago, like one of the magazines was really kind of scraping the barrel for content during COVID or something and called me and asked me to do a world eclectic 18 but the rules were, you know, the first hole had to be a first hole and so on and so forth. And I started to do this process, it's actually really good fun, like in a geeky way. And what it showed me was like the truly great golf courses, even like, I'll say it straight away, like Royal County Down, I could have most of the front nine. I could take pretty much any hole in the front nine in Royal County Down. And then as I kept doing the process, it was almost like it was validating what the truly like absolute creme de la creme golf courses are but still those golf course had a bunch of holes that I wouldn't use and so riches riches point to me as look like You might have six great golf holes like pebble beach is a great example of that and I'll say there's a handful of holes at pebble that most people probably shrug their shoulders up, but maybe wouldn't say. I don't know, I'm kind of waffling a little bit, going off on a tangent, but it's just to be like a world top 100, truly great golf course, it's rare to have 18 really, really good holes that keep your interest the whole time.
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0:08:19
Yeah, yeah, totally.
David Margolis
0:08:21
But the other thing we talked about, real briefly, you talked about the course, about it being unique and we talked about it a lot, that you play tree farm and you come off it and you say, what does this course remind you? It reminds you of no other course. It's just such a huge perk. We talked about it, and Dope would love that, that the course reminds you of no other golf course in the world, which is fantastic.
Zac Blair
0:08:41
And that's a compliment in Tom's book. Like we've chatted about that before when I went to play St. Patrick's. Well, I didn't really get to play it. I played it in the dirt. So Frank Casey and I, again, it was COVID. And the course was there, all the greens were there, but we played dirt golf. And I could see from walking around, I was like, wow, this place is cool. And Tom asked me to send him some notes afterwards. I spotted a kind of a little trick in his routing of how he like got, and that's the clever bit again to me. Like he used that on, I'm gonna get these holes wrong now, 14 is this dog leg down, left, right, as you come down to the water great hole and then 15 is like an uphill par 3. It's very rare to have an uphill par 3 nowadays right yeah and a truly good one and this 15th hole it's not particularly long it's just like a wedge in hand but it kind of it puckers you up a little bit like you you feel like you know you have to get a good shot you're dead yeah but that gets you up this awkward bit of uh the property gets you up the hill, it breaks up the big climb to the 16th T, which is this like big, long par five that drops a huge elevation. And again, that's the skill that a guy can go, hey, that's an awesome hole, how do I get to the T on that hole, but make it work and not just seem like a filler or a transition hole. Yeah, and he did a really good job at the tree farm. My routings that I had put together would have been brutal to walk out there. They were like very much taking on the contours and the big elevation changes like head on and I think they would have been really cool holes to look at and they would have been a pain in the ass to walk and his, he really does a good job traversing the property. And minus the walk from really 4T to 4Green, which is the riff on Pine Valley 5, it's just like a very pleasant walk basically the whole day. So it's crazy that he can do such a good job of finding a way to make the routing and the walk and the holes and everything lay out so good you know when you know so many people couldn't. What's cool as well that I like about the tree farmer is the little pockets of holes so there's like almost like little loops you know it seems to be lots of that you said triangles I think during the part of the pod you know you've got like one two three and then obviously you come over, you do four, but then the sort of five, six, seven, it's kind of that sort of little triangle, and then you come to the next part of the property, and you feel you're kind of going around the rim of that big crater, which is like eight, nine, coming down, and then we talked about then, almost like around the racetrack, when you're doing like 13 down to 14, and things like that. And it just takes you on this journey, like this great walk throughout the property. You visit lots of different parts of the property. And I think that will make Tree Farm really stand out from the crowd. Yeah, I think right now we've been playing the preview play starting on hole 10, and I think we're gonna start on hole 11, when we kind of kick back off. But it's such a better course when you start from one, you play the one, two, three, kind of around the driving range, and you get to four, and that's your real first glimpse of kind of the back bowls of 10 and 11, which is just this 200 yard wide grass, just ridiculous part of the property. But then you leave it for five, six, seven, eight, nine, you hit your tee shot on nine and you're kind of looking down on it again. So that was a really cool piece of the whole process of doing the routing, talking to Tom about I thought Mackenzie does a really good job kind of converge and get get back together. And he did a really good job with that on, you know, that four, five, six, or like four, five, eight, T-box kind of green complex situation. Same thing on that, you know, ten, eleven, twelve is kind of the same thing. And that was really important to me from building the club and making this a club, a golf course where you're going to know people. Seeing people out on the golf course was huge to me. And there's so much kind of entertainment value of when you're out on the golf course, whether it's when you're on 1T and you're seeing people drive 18, or when you get on to 4T and you're seeing people putt on 10, or if you get on 4 green and you're seeing all the people around those areas, that was, there's nothing better than kind of like seeing your friends screw up or do something cool on the course. So it kind of plays well into all of that, which is good.
James Henderson
0:13:58
And that's a really interesting take. I've never thought about golf that way, because you go somewhere like Muirfield or North Berwick where you're going opposite directions from both nines and you're always passing your mates on a different hole. So there's always a bit of chat and interchange between each hole whether you're on 5 and 11 at Muirfield or 14 green in the second fairway and then at North Berwick just all
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the way.
James Henderson
0:14:25
It's a really cool thought.
Zac Blair
0:14:28
I always think about this as well. I've talked about this before, and another part I think, when I like having glimpses over the holes, so it builds up to, it almost plays into the architecture of the course and the psychology of the golfer. So like Dornach, the good example there is, you step onto the third tee, and Neil Hampton, I interviewed Neil Hampton, the GM up at Donut Quads and he said you walk into the first tee and people see the whole course and he goes the one thing I see is the six. He goes because I'm terrified, like everyone's terrified of the six. Like and I'm already waiting for it and it actually affects probably your performance on the holes before because the anticipation and the famous example of that for me is the road hole. Like when I get to like 15 I'm already thinking about the road hole. So that will definitely, because I'm so like mentally weak but Yeah, because I hit the ball so low. It's like okay. How hard am I gonna hit the green shed today? No, but it's things like that and like you see that hole so again using the old person example It's that most famous gathering spot of golf course architecture is when you're around at that far end like seven eight Nine ten eleven it does feel like a bit of a racetrack and you're there and everyone else is around you and there's craziness going on everywhere But for me, I see 11 and it starts to make me think about okay I'll get through seven eight nine and ten you kind of thinking okay Hopefully I could make birdies on those holes and then you know ten is like to me is the real Where the old course really just ramps up big time and that's when you've got a hold on to whatever sort of score you might have. Yeah, yeah, totally. I think those little glimpses of what's coming next, you know, just going back to the tree farm, like 10 is this kind of, the green's hidden, it's kind of one of the only like putting surfaces that you don't see besides 17 out there. So when you're playing it from one to 18, you kind of get over the hill, you get on the 4T box, and 10 green is right there. And so you get to see where the pin is, you get to see kind of what's coming. And then the same thing on 5, when you're on 5T, you walk right past the short 7th green, you get to see kind of all the trouble around it, you get to see where the pin is, how small the green is, everything. So then two holes later when you get there and you don't see some of those bunkers up by the green, it's not like this, whoa, like where did those come from? You know, it's very much like, you know, your member or your caddy, you know, should be pointing those things out. Like, hey, take a look at where the pin is on 10, you know, check out that bunker right of seven, like you don't want to be in there. And then when you get over to that hole, you're already kind of like thinking about it for those 20 or 30 minutes of like, okay, wow, that pin is way right on seven. Like if I miss there, I'm dead. And it's this psychological kind of game.
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0:17:29
And that's cool. I mean, in North Berwick we do that. If you're playing in a medal in North Berwick, when you're stood on the, you're looking at where the pin is on 17. When you're teeing off on two, you're looking where the pin is on 17. You know, you're not going to have a clue.
David Margolis
0:17:41
I'll throw something in just so it's on the record, whether it makes the podcast or not. When we were traveling the UK, people haven't been to the UK, don't realize all the great courses have a bell. And I don't want to bother Zach with all little details, but I had one request for Tree Farm that we need a bell. And he found us a little special.
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0:17:59
Yeah. Maybe you could talk about the bell.
David Margolis
0:18:01
the Levine Bell?
Zac Blair
0:18:03
Yeah, one of our members, his dad was a captain on a Navy battleship. Wow. And so they decommissioned this ship that he was a captain of, and he you know I was asking about bells online just kind of like looking at stuff you know like hey you know where could we find a cool bell blah blah blah and and he was like I have a really cool one do you guys want it and you know he shared the whole backstory with me and I was like are you sure and he was like it's literally just sitting in my closet So yeah, we got the we got the manly bell on the 12th hole at the tree farm. It's a It's been a process getting people to understand you got to go you got to go ring it because I would say it's pretty You know it's not very American I would say there's not a ton of courses that immediately come to mind where you're you know going over and Ringing a bell you know to tell you that you're out of the way but uh it's definitely something that we expect to catch on. I gotta tell you when we walked from 14th to 15th to the Verdun Hall at North Berwick
David Margolis
0:19:22
it was a professional ringing of the bell that everyone even on the beach heard it.
Zac Blair
0:19:27
Yeah definitely like to ring a bell uh anytime I see it. This one is this you know the the manly bells loud. That's a great backstory the guy that christened in the bell. Yeah, it's like the size, you know, it's bigger than like... Like a lampshade bell?
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0:19:44
Yeah.
Zac Blair
0:19:45
I mean, it's from a battleship.
James Henderson
0:19:48
Thanks again for Zach for such a great conversation. Now let's turn to our second guest, David Margolis.
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0:19:54
Anyway, I do want to take this to Gulf Coast Architecture. Yeah, yeah, sorry.
Zac Blair
0:19:59
And the reason I'm delighted, you know, I knew David was coming to the World Cup, of course. We're good friends. We've traveled, we've played lots of golf in the States, and we took a fabulous trip to Japan last November. David's exceptionally well-traveled, well-read. We had Zach Blair on one of our previous pods. David's one of the co-founders of the Tree Farm with him, so there's lots of insight that David has to give us. But let's talk rankings, because we're a rankings site, discuss. I know you've got lots to talk
David Margolis
0:20:28
about when it comes to golf course rankings I I subscribe to the belief that courses should be in buckets and that it's really hard to differentiate between 29 and 30 or you know I just figure there's probably a top 50 in the world. And then another 200 courses that could probably go anywhere from 51 to 250. Or another 100, 150 courses that could go from 51 to 100. So I'm a big bucket guy in terms of how I consider courses. Like speaking of the Japan trip, I think unequivocally, Hirono is a top 50 course in the world. Without question. And I'm not sure I can make the argument for anywhere else. Are there some wonderful courses? Are there some courses that you could argue belong in the top 100 in the world? Absolutely, but I just can't make that.
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0:21:41
So while we're on with Japan, let's stay in Japan because it's a topic we haven't really covered on the podcast before. And you've mentioned Hirono there, which was both of our favorites. I think anyone that's been to Japan that's played all of them would be hard-pressed to not say certainly architecturally Hirono is a notch above. But when we played at Kawano, it's a resort course, right there on the coast. I mean, for me, the routing of that golf course is spectacular. Very interesting par fives, that some of them were sub 500 yards, but playing uphill and played every inch of a par five. So what do you think needs to be done to a course like that to elevate in the rankings? In most world rankings, I'm guessing it's between 40 and 60 in the world, but you and I would say, I don't know, maybe needs a little something.
David Margolis
0:22:28
Green expansions for sure. You can see areas on some of these old courses where the greens have shrunk and the greens used to, there used to be green tree removal.
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0:22:40
Big time.
David Margolis
0:22:43
There's some great, great holes at Hirono. The seventh hole is, I mean at the Fuji course at Kona, there's the seventh hole is one of the most unique short par 4s I've ever played. It's wonderful but to talk about the top 50 courses in the world, the bar is pretty high.
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0:23:07
And on that as well, because I don't think you or I are necessarily conditioning snobs, but I do think there is a level there. So I love swindling forest and you know, we're flipping now very quickly to England. I was telling our colleague Jim McCann who sat here in the corner taking notes and checking up on us. But I'd spoke to about him with swindling forest, which I believe you're going to play next week, which I love, you know, Colts incredible routine of the golf course there is wonderful, the different textures of the heather and the fairways and the trees that frame the holes but don't crowd them out, but then for whatever reason they like to leave the greens a little long and the fairways a little long.
David Margolis
0:23:52
I don't know how much of a members course it is and how much they care about it. I was there in May, I've been there a handful of times. First time I was there was 2016. And as I mentioned, I've made a few return visits. It's just, it's not to the level of some of those other Surrey courses, but I tend to just look at the bones of a place and try not to draw too much of a conclusion based on the conditioning, because that's something that can be easily fixed. Now if the course plays, if the owner or the manager wants the course to be lush and green and it's designed to play firm and fast, yes, of course, but some other things, I don't let that.
James Henderson
0:24:44
How about, sorry, Colts designed that course in a day when courses were like that. So maybe Swindley are staying true to their origin rather than switching up to the more modern theory.
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0:24:55
And I think that's fair. And I want to underline, I think Swindley's spectacular. In no way poorly conditioned, but the greens there have got such undulations. I still think there's a balance. So if they're overly fast, then it gets out of control because there's so much movement in the greens. But at the same time, you want the ball and the putts or the pitches to take the breaks. And I just find some places that I don't know, I'm waffling, but I suppose I think conditioning does play a key part when we're talking about the top 100 courses in the world.
David Margolis
0:25:27
But James, you're exactly right as well, though. So again, I mean, what were these courses rolling back then?
James Henderson
0:25:34
I, uh, six, seven, eight.
David Margolis
0:25:36
I'm a life member of Ask Greenish and those greens roll three and you know it's maybe four it's unbelievable it's just awesome so I don't think that that really I try to not let that dictate it that much I do prefer faster greens more than purists that say green speeds don't matter. So I don't know.
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0:26:06
I just think there's a limit to that. It's very it's kind of woke to say green speeds don't matter, but I do think there's a lower limit.
David Margolis
0:26:14
I completely agree.
James Henderson
0:26:17
I spoke to an architect recently who I wouldn't name, but it's called I nicknamed TK2 because there's TK1 out there, he's probably, might be listening, and then TK2 is his nickname because he's the exact same. Tree Killer 2. It's all about dropping down trees. But he said about golf speeds, golf course speeds, particularly for people like McKenzie and Colt, is when they're building these cool, interesting green complexes that are now having to be almost flattened to be able to stick with the modern day thought.
Zac Blair
0:26:48
to cater for the golfer who demands faster greens. Yeah, we won't get into the cause of that because I do have some controversial thoughts, but we'll leave them elsewhere.
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0:26:58
I'm a big tree removal guy.
David Margolis
0:27:01
I want to give a shout out to our green chairman at Old Town, Dunlop White, whose nickname is El Castor, because the guy's a big tree remover. So every time you show up to Old Town, there's a tree down, not really. He did a massive amount of tree removal and led the restoration at Old Town, which was really cool and is one of the best restorations in the country over the past 20 years, without a doubt. So that's it, you just led me somewhere else.
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0:27:41
Top five restorations in the US.
David Margolis
0:27:45
Cow Club. Correct.
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0:27:47
Old Town.
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0:27:48
Inverness? No? Shore Acres.
David Margolis
0:27:51
I'm not a restoration, greeneration, hanseration guy. I'm a... they do brilliant work. LACC is definitely on that list, though, without a doubt. Yeah, super. But I'm a... if you have a museum piece, keep it a museum piece. And some of these places are museum pieces.
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0:28:26
So, um, he kind of put me on the spot, but I think what's important, cause I know your, your colleagues attorney, I think what's important is that you stay true to the essence of the course and it must be difficult for people to come in. There are members of clubs that are really well read and want to restore these courses to their former glory. Perhaps selling that to members of the club that are used to the course being the way it's been in their lifetime. So they maybe don't know as much about the original play and integrity of the golf course.
David Margolis
0:29:02
People have connections to trees, right? And then all these supers that came in wanted to make their mark. I know just enough to be dangerous about this stuff. There's a lot of people that know a lot more than me, but you go to Congressional, massive tree removal on the front nine. Amazing. But how much did Green really restore that to Devereux Emmett? So I don't know. I would say Cal Club, Old Town, LACC, the North Course there. I played there the first time a little over a decade ago and that got the wheels spinning on everything for me regarding golf course architecture. Growing up, I thought Forest Creek was the greatest thing ever. So anyways, not that it's not good, but I
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0:29:59
digress.
Zac Blair
0:30:00
I think we mentioned at the start of the pod, one of the co-founders of the Tree Farm with Zach Blair, we had Zach on and we went deep into the architecture, but these travels have given you a level of knowledge, not only for the on-course input that you give to the club, but really the off-course elements as well. So you've been highly involved in the clubhouse, the furnishings, we joke a lot about the showers. So give us a little insight into your involvement there and Zach and the
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0:30:28
rest of the team at the tree farm with the off-course elements.
David Margolis
0:30:31
Zach is very humble in terms of sourcing a lot of information, listening to people, but I had zero to do with the design of the golf course. I'm a novice golf architecture fan. I know very little to nothing about golf course design and understanding how water moves. I've learned a little bit through the project. A friend once said, I went up to meet a superintendent, David you don't know bleep about bleep regarding grasses and sent me something where Doak, you know, was speaking in front of a group of supers and he said he knew just enough to be dangerous about grasses. So I really know nothing about that but I was very involved in and am in terms of the experience we are trying to create there and the showers, wet areas, bedding, furniture, I can't tell you how many chairs Zach and I have set in different places, measured chairs, measured widths of lockers, the area between lockers, the areas for shoes. I used to keep a tape measure in my shoe bag. Excuse me?
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0:31:47
That's fact.
James Henderson
0:31:48
Out of interest, could you name some places that are the optimal of all those things? Where do you get your inspiration from?
David Margolis
0:31:59
There's a place, Zach really likes the locker sizing at Trinity Forest and the layout there. Some of the old school stuff with the really deep bottoms like at Cypress are wonderful. They were really nice. I lost the paper where I'd written the dimensions down one time and they were really nice. They went back and measured for me. Casey was great. All the pros everywhere have been wonderful. There's a place in New Jersey where they took me everywhere around the back, downstairs. Charlie said, you know, anything we can help you with. He had one of his guys show us around. trash areas, which really makes sense. You've got all this trash, you need to keep it somewhere, so they keep it underneath, refrigerated, so it doesn't smell. The things you wouldn't think of, James. But James, let's talk about places in the UK that maybe David will have taken inspiration for.
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0:32:58
What are some of your favorite clubhouses in the UK? I love the locker room at Western Gales. It's a fantastic locker room. David, have you visited?
James Henderson
0:33:08
at Western Gales. It's a fantastic locker room. David, have you visited? Absolutely. Lovely place, for sure.
David Margolis
0:33:16
The lockers are superb. And you know every member has a locker.
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0:33:20
Really?
James Henderson
0:33:21
Yeah, each member has a number and a locker and it's one, two, three hundred or whatever. Because there's, yeah, that's all it is. I really like the number on the locker,
David Margolis
0:33:30
not the name. I think that's really cool.
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0:33:37
I remember hearing a story once off a late friend who is a long time member of the RNA and I think he was one of the first Americans on one of the committees and he told the story so forgive me for anyone listening if they don't think this is true. He said that he was in his first committee meeting and he said, oh you know what would be great, we have the names on the lockers and if someone dies then you should take the name of the locker off and put it on the inside so you almost have the history of the locker but they knew it was going to be quite a long conversation and spin-off so that the chairman of the meeting looked at his watch so that they were pressed for time and slammed his fist on the table said nope when you're dead you're dead.
David Margolis
0:34:13
Well that's funny you say that because in New Zealand they cross your name off and then they just put the next name down and that's an amazing clubhouse to go see there's a half a dozen names on some of these lockers
4
0:34:27
Crossed out. Yeah, so so that's that in Surrey. I've not actually played in New Zealand But I mean let's get back to golf courses But what's your favorite courses down there because you're so well traveled around Surrey he fun golf as well
David Margolis
0:34:40
What's your favorite courses down there right now? I'm really into seeing a lot of these besides so Went and saw New Zealand this year, Huntercomb. What did you think of Huntercomb? Lovely. I really enjoyed it. The thing about Huntercomb is everybody talks about that third green, I think. There are some wild greens there, but there's also some very subdued greens. And it really is quite good. Woking I love, and great clubhouse as well. A lot of really cool stuff in Surrey. I think England is probably the most underrated golf place and also has the most depth. There's great highlights in Ireland and Scotland, but there's just so much depth in England. time I came over I went on a 17 round 11 day solo trip and traversed the country. The longest I actually was in Wales for round 2. I went from sandwiched, spent the night in Bath and played Porthcall the next day. But I played all kinds of stuff on that trip. Al Woodley, Formby Hillside, it wasn't just hitting a bunch of the A-listers, that was wild.
James Henderson
0:36:10
That coast, the Manchester-Liverpool coast of the Wirral down to Birkdale, I would say it's probably the strongest coast in the whole of the UK, if not GB and I.
Zac Blair
0:36:21
There's an argument to be made for sure, I mean we're lucky enough to have lots of incredible coastlines, Ayrshire, East Lothian, here where we are now in Fife, there's lots of, you used the term B-size, David, lots of great golf courses around here, you know, you watched Lyrical back before, Quail Balcombe, I think it's a great off-the-plane course for any inbound visitors to Scotland, it'll kind of slap you out of the chops that you're in Scotland on day one, and you know, you'll play these bonkers par threes over Gorse and all the rest of it, and you'll have a wild time. But yeah, there's lots of great coastlines in the UK.
4
0:36:53
That's a great conversation.
David Margolis
0:36:54
The best coastline in the UK. An excellent conversation and as you recall when you used to flip the single on the tape to the B side, sometimes it was a really good song. So that's where that term came from.
James Henderson
0:37:08
How about your favorite golf courses that live in the shadow?
David Margolis
0:37:13
Also, Braincaster, Royal West Norfolk, without question, unbelievable. Arguably, one of the coolest club setting, clubhouse settings in the world.
4
0:37:27
Just brilliant.
David Margolis
0:37:28
Hans Sanson guy? Sure, but Royal West Norfolk. Deal is under the radar somewhat. It's starting to pop back up, but they've done some amazing work there.
4
0:37:42
I'm going to get into dangerous territory here. I'm going to do it anyway. So I love Deal, Royal St. Paul, Sunday name, and Royal St. George's Sandwich, I think is a phenomenal golf course, phenomenal club. And I think Deal, equally of Deal. Is there a little kind of like local rivalry that I sense when I turn up at deal there's a little bit of oh we're every bit as good as Royal St. George's a golf course we could have an open here today and obviously Bledge did an incredible job when he was down there improved the condition of the golf course and the green complex is incredible but what what your thoughts on that area?
David Margolis
0:38:20
recently I think it has the teeth to for sure host an open they don't have the infrastructure but I'm not going to get into the comparisons that both wonderful places and lovely clubs so that that's my that's my feeling about that deal, the deal jacket is very polarizing as well, the club colors, but back in the day, there was no club logos, you just had club colors. So the, yeah, England, just wonderful. You can, there's just so much good stuff. On the back of that, what's your just top five golf courses in UK and GB and I at Simon Holt top five where it could be three or eight or actually five courses you can have a Simon Holt top five it's okay are we is it Great Britain and Ireland or Great Britain and Ireland County down without a doubt. Muirfield. The work that it turned Barry is just unbelievable. I love the old course. The more I play it, I went in the first time with very low expectations. The more I play it, the more I think it's just fantastic. Is it my favorite or what I think of the best your favorite. I mean Brancaster
James Henderson
0:40:04
So much fun. It's such a cool place. It's it's wonderful
David Margolis
0:40:08
and just because I have so much fun every time I'm there and because of the people and Because they make the club as well. I'm gonna I'm gonna put deal deal in that top five as well I knew you were that was teasing out of you because I think the place is wonderful I just wanted to see what you
Zac Blair
0:40:26
thought of the the sort of thing between the two clubs sir and how about world
David Margolis
0:40:31
and I think I'm probably leaving some stuff out but no that that's when I mean barrack North barrack would probably there's probably six so I'm gonna put that in there as well as about to squeeze it without a doubt about Dominic no Dominic that it's not you can't you can't just keep keep rambling right you got to stop somewhere It's probably in a it's in a tie for six
9
0:40:58
Okay
James Henderson
0:41:00
There's okay, so we're how about your top five worldwide did any of those feature
David Margolis
0:41:05
You could make the argument all of them feature I mean, I really, I've, ranking golf courses is so subjective, right?
James Henderson
0:41:24
That's why I'm asking for your favorite.
David Margolis
0:41:27
What are my favorite golf courses in the world?
James Henderson
0:41:31
It could be for personal reasons, like Ely's one of mine, because I've been there so many times and enjoyed myself so many times there.
Zac Blair
0:41:38
I'm going to twist the question slightly if you don't mind, because you're so well-travelled. And don't put the confidential guide as gourmet choice. Almost like the golf courses an architecture fan has to go and see before they die, that you'll take something from everywhere. They're not necessarily the best courses in any location, but the places you've been around the world that you've thought, wow, I learned something today
4
0:42:00
about golf course architecture?
David Margolis
0:42:04
Some place that most people can get to, that you've got to go is probably the Netherlands and play Japan. Incredible routine of the golf course. It's a disjustice to say it's the poor man's Morfontein. There's some similarities but Awesome more Fontaine amazing It's a cold, right?
James Henderson
0:42:32
Japan Japan is yeah Simpson more fun, too
David Margolis
0:42:35
Lot of Colts in the Netherlands a lot of it's a reoccurring theme that Colts has always Got his name next to great writings isn't it? I think he's my favorite architect
Zac Blair
0:42:44
I don't think I've said that like publicly.
David Margolis
0:42:51
You know, if I have a third kid and he's a boy, we may go Colt.
6
0:42:57
After the car?
David Margolis
0:43:00
No, after the architect. That was a shout out to Zach. He named his first child after an architect. No, Cyprus, I'm very high on Marion. I like the fact that you use every club in your bag. Length is not really a factor, right? I just think it's a wonderful golf course, wonderful mix of holes. Muirfield, one of the best routings, right, anywhere. More cult involvement there as well, I might add.
4
0:43:45
Common theme.
Zac Blair
0:43:46
Yeah, exactly.
David Margolis
0:43:47
I honestly, I think that, well,
Zac Blair
0:43:49
one time we should have that big conversation and we'll maybe have James and I and Jim involved as well, but, you know, favorite architects and the people that we think have done an incredible job. Everyone talks about McKenzie.
James Henderson
0:44:00
I don't know if cult's super famous in architecture circles, but I don't know. I think the recurring theme is when someone compliments the writing, I
4
0:44:10
hear it's normally got some sort of cool recognition Colton in the modern day. I mean, that's apparently I asked him once. What's the thing that you feel sets you apart from your peers in this wonderfully rich age of golf course design that we're in now and he says oh you know I would say routing of the golf
Zac Blair
0:44:27
course because he can look at a topo map and just read it like Neo reads the
James Henderson
0:44:31
matrix. That's what Clyde Johnson said about him he said there's no one that can do a routing like Doakam. So David what would you say your
4
0:44:40
your favorite modern golf courses are? The golf course is built in the last 30
David Margolis
0:44:45
years. Speaking of routings really quick, Old Town, 1939, Maxwell, one of the, maybe the last great course of the golden age of golf course architecture. Maxwell had a thousand acres to work with and Bill Korr calls it a case study in how to route a golf course. So just unbelievable routing, green complexes, so I just had to throw a plug in there.
4
0:45:20
Sure, I mean, hometown club, it's understandable.
David Margolis
0:45:23
May or may not be.
Zac Blair
0:45:24
I know it's worthy of the praise, but what would you say the modern golf course is about in the last 20 to 30 years? What are your favorites and is there any sort of common themes there?
David Margolis
0:45:34
Dukes routing there is genius. So a lot of people like to say trails is the best course or other courses are the best course. Out at Bandin, which is unbelievable, stuff built in the last 30 years. Like Sandhills guy? Sandhills good, great, Doke 9, we'll give it a Doke 9.
James Henderson
0:46:10
Tauriti?
David Margolis
0:46:11
I have not been yet. So the big hole in my resume is Australia and New Zealand. I've been fortunate to play most everywhere else in the world and I have yet to visit there.
James Henderson
0:46:27
Well, out of interest then, obviously Australia and New Zealand have a big recognition in the world of golf. They are very well loved by the particularly rankings. So what areas of the world do you reckon there's a lack of knowledge in the rankings? Do you think there's an... England. Do you think there's... of course, it should be higher up in the rankings because of that.
David Margolis
0:46:49
Yeah, all over the UK, for sure.
4
0:46:52
And what I love about what you're saying there is it's right under most people's noses. So you don't have to, I've said before, I think there's Asia, there has to be at least a good handful of courses in Asia that we don't already know about that are probably worthy of a conversation. But the fact that somewhere like England is right under most of our noses, one plane flight away for anyone in the States and a drive away for anyone here in the UK where we are now, it just means that you can go and find the stuff and it's so accessible in England as well.
David Margolis
0:47:22
The food is actually very good over here. A lot of people... Did you hear the horror stories before? A lot of people don't like to knock the food in Scotland and England and those are just the picky eaters, right? The guys that love Five Guys, right? And they want their burger there plain. But there is Five Guys in England, so I've been to one before in Manchester.
James Henderson
0:47:48
Where do you think is the best food, clubhouse food? And is that where you're going to be trying to emulate the tree farm?
David Margolis
0:47:58
No, George's is a lunch club with a golf course, the members joke. The Dover sole there is out of this world. The food's excellent. The food at Sunningdale's excellent. They have a, what's the famous pie they have? The treacle tart at Rye is famous. If you call in advance, you can actually preorder a whole pie, which is a-
8
0:48:21
Whole pie?
David Margolis
0:48:22
Yeah, that's definitely a move. So the banoffee pie over here is unbelievable.
Zac Blair
0:48:29
I'm not letting this go past. I know what you're subtly trying to do there because I know the story. To finish, this is a nice way to finish, tell James about this.
David Margolis
0:48:38
Yeah, tell me about your pie. Everyone's heard of Dutch apple pie. When you go over, so when we were over in the Netherlands, I made a point of trying to find all the best apple pie places. And all the clubs over here, in the US we don't have fresh pies or cakes at our club sitting behind the bar. Yesterday I was at Panmure, the chef had just brought out a fresh carrot cake with homemade cream cheese icing, the whole thing was homemade, I got the first slice out of it. It was Amazing. So yeah, you eat the pies and they have savory pies, too So a big big on all those for sure so I'm going I keep going back to this modern question and I don't know I think Pete dies getting hated on a bit right now, even though not a lot of his stuff is in modern. I don't know. I was just at Cap Rock for a few days and I thought the way Gil routes that from the prairie to the canyon, back out and then back in was spectacular. I do want to hit on the showers because we haven't done that.
Zac Blair
0:49:55
Let's go to the showers to finish then. This is you on the monologue will ask no questions, you just free flow on showers. You are limited to three minutes.
David Margolis
0:50:08
Okay, so the most important thing with the tree farm in terms of the experience to me was the shower. There's a place up in New Jersey and a lot of the Philly courses that have these unbelievable showers that can put out 10 gallons a minute, massive coverage, incredible flow, you know, they're running huge pipes. So that was really something that we wanted to emulate. There's a place down and I have this on my notes which I was kind of caught off guard but back at the flat we're staying that you can order this head. a three-quarter inch hot and cold through line or at least line in. You need a massive drain, you need special valves, but you can put these in, but unbelievable. My favorite shower is Deepdale, the back left showers. I think the Fryer shower, which is obviously well known, a little strong for my liking, and that's where they got the idea from the Deepdale shower, but there's so many wonderful showers. There's a men's club in New York that has a great shower, huge shower guy. I'll even go places and turn on the shower just to just to check the shower out. And something that's really important as well is you've got to have the on-off switch when you walk right into the left or right. You can't have it under or behind the shower, because then you turn it on and you get hit by the cold water. I mean, what's that?
7
0:51:42
It's awful.
4
0:51:43
So, I do think there's one key element that we need to, while you're talking about showers and coverage and pressure, it is doors. No door guy or door guy?
David Margolis
0:51:57
You've got to go no doors with the shower, because over here, right, guys are showering and making a quick turn to put their jacket and tie on for lunch or they're rushing back where they're going. In the States, we shower at the very end. Guys might not want to get home. Guys might be staying overnight and want to get in there and just relax. With no door, guys are getting in and out, right? Unless you're the really old guy with the saggy ass who doesn't care you're jumping in and out So you put the door in and guys are staying in there for 10 or 15 minutes? No door guys are in and out so I think it's really important to go no door you don't need back-to-back, but you need no door and Yeah, I mean my favorite thing is getting in those where the water's above my ankles in 10 seconds puts the biggest smile on my face.
4
0:52:49
Oh, water is above the ankles because the pressure is so high.
David Margolis
0:52:52
Because there is so much flow.
James Henderson
0:52:54
But also sustainability, David.
David Margolis
0:52:56
You don't want pressure, you just want a mix. Too much pressure, you don't want to get hit by a wave or a fire hose. Sustainability, a lot of these places are grandfathered in.
4
0:53:06
Now I'm talking about if you don't have a curtain or a door, then people don't use as much water. Even if they are getting hammered by the water with the pressure flow, they're getting out of there pretty quickly.
David Margolis
0:53:17
Exactly. And some people won't do it without a door.
4
0:53:24
And do you have any tips on, we're getting really deep here, but when I have a shower at a club like Rawls & George's in your field, so I'm going to slip into the jacket and tie
Zac Blair
0:53:34
for lunch, which I love doing, the post-shower sweat crushes me.
David Margolis
0:53:40
I mean that's such an interesting point. Yeah, I've got no solution for that.
4
0:53:46
I'm still struggling after all this time. I think the worst thing to do is straight out of the shower, just a cold blast just before you get out, before you put on the jacket and tie. Otherwise, you might as well get back in the shower.
David Margolis
0:53:57
You've got to keep the shirt off for as long as possible. Agreed. Right. And the showers at Georgia's and Muirfield are wonderful. It's a great head. It's just a smaller head with less coverage and less flow than these Philly area showers. So top two showers that I really want to try, I wanted to cover that. The Country Club up in Cleveland is supposed to have a great shower. We've got a lot of video of that shower. It's an angular shower, not a shower from above. I've heard great things about the Saucon Valley shower.
Zac Blair
0:54:30
Saucon Valley is very utilitarian, but it's highly effective. It's like you're getting hosed down with a fire hose. This thing's unbelievable.
4
0:54:37
But no door there. No door. Curtains, the sort of curtains that would fall down. Some curtains are there, some aren't.
6
0:54:45
Super powerful shower.
David Margolis
0:54:46
Curtains, fine. But the no door, you've got to have no door. You don't need a little changing room inside. Let's keep it simple with a great shower head with great flow, good pressure, and the on-off switch not under the shower.
4
0:55:04
Yeah, I always say that's such a recommended habit, under the shower. Ross enjoys it like that. Just on the left-hand side as you come in, it's perfect.
David Margolis
0:55:10
Yeah, yeah.
4
0:55:12
I mean, it's health and safety if nothing else David
David Margolis
0:55:14
Absolutely. What's what's your shower at home like?
James Henderson
0:55:17
you got a great shower I live in a
David Margolis
0:55:19
Historic house and we looked at Putting one of these showers in my in-laws have a collection of different showers in all all the bedrooms And I really like staying in the steam shower room so I'm a big fan of the steam, but the next house will have the famous Philly area showerheads in there.
Zac Blair
0:55:48
James, I mean, that went all over the place like I knew it would, but that's what we expected,
4
0:55:54
right? Yeah, at least we talked about golf at some points in there, which is fantastic, but that was awesome.
David Margolis
0:56:00
Thanks, David. Yeah come and again come to England for the Banoffee pie, the treacle tart and of course the sticky toffee which... And Old Town for the elephants and routing. Yeah the golf as well but you could do a whole pod on top five sticky toffees as well. We could if we were. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.
James Henderson
0:56:24
We hope you enjoyed the cussion floor. We'll be back next week with even more great content. Don't forget to check out our website at www.top100golfcourses.com and get involved with the Top 100 community. Don't forget to check out our website at www.top100golfcourses.com and get involved with the Top 100 community. And remember, play fast, lunch slow.
Transcribed with Cockatoo