Episode 17 - Matt Ward - Journalist at 100 Major Championships & 12 Ryder Cup's

This week we welcome golf journalist Matt Ward to the Clubhouse.

 Matt is the top reviewer on top100golfcourses.com, he's played over 2000 golf courses, and written 831 reviews! 

As a journalist, Matt has attended 100 Majors and 12 Ryder Cup's, and has interviewed countless high profile golfers.

In this wide-ranging interview, Matt discusses his prestigious career, the games all time great players, and sheds light on what makes a top golf course.

The Top100 Clubhouse Podcast is brought to you by Eden Mill; bringing the art of distilling back to St Andrews. 

Transcript

James Henderson
 0:00:00
 The Top 100 Clubhouse podcast is brought to you by Eden Mill. Bring the tradition of distilling whiskey and gin back to St Andrews, the home of golf. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Top 100 Clubhouse, the ultimate podcast for golf course enthusiasts worldwide. I'm your host, James Henderson, and we're about to embark on a journey through lush fairways and breathtaking landscapes, as well as delving deep into the minds of fascinating individuals from every corner of the golfing universe. Get ready to explore the world's top golf courses through the eyes of those who know

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 0:00:47
 them best.

James Henderson
 0:00:49
 So this week on the pod I interviewed Matt Ward. Matt Ward is a fascinating chap. He's the number one reviewer on the Top of the 100 website. Has played over 2,000 golf courses, so he knows what he's talking about. He's also been at 100 majors and 12 Ryder Cups as a journalist, which is astonishing. And I don't know if there's a golfer who has been important in the last 70 years that he hasn't interviewed. It's quite incredible. So I hope you enjoy. Okay, so very much welcome, Matt Ward.

5
 0:01:24
 How are you?

Matt Ward
 0:01:25
 Pleasure to be with you.

James Henderson
 0:01:26
 It's an absolute joy to have you on here. I was just checking your account on the Top 100 website and you've rated 829 golf courses. That just shows you how much you've been around golf for the last, I don't know, how long you've been a journalist in golf.

Matt Ward
 0:01:45
 I probably go back, well I look at it being a journalist is when they started to pay you. I probably was writing about golf in a couple of different outlets early on, but I would say roughly since, I guess, 1980, when Nicholas won the US Open at Balls Row, was probably the first major championship and first golf coverage that I started to do, and then I've done it since then.

James Henderson
 0:02:15
 So you've done over 100 major championships that you've covered. That's right.

Matt Ward
 0:02:20
 That's a wild number.

James Henderson
 0:02:21
 How do you feel about your writing style from that first one to, well, your last one you did probably, was it Royal Liverpool?

Matt Ward
 0:02:30
 Yeah, well, and I'm not counting the Ryder Cup, which I consider sort of like the fifth major in a biannual fashion, but yeah, Royal Liverpool was the last one. And it's just great to, if somebody has a passion for any sport, you certainly want to be in the midst of seeing the very best do what they do. And I don't think there's anything better than to watch major championship play because you're seeing history happen. That's exactly what it is. I mean, to see Nicklaus win his fourth U.S. Open at Baldus Raw, and then obviously to see the length and breadth of the career of Tiger Woods, among all the other players since then, is just, it's a tremendous opportunity and I'm really privileged, in other words, to be on the front lines to see this, you know, with my own eyes. It's really something I've always enjoyed doing and it's always special. It never gets old. As far as writing style, I hope that I've learned a good bit from the different people that I've had the opportunity to intersect with. I mean, Dave Anderson from the New York Times, God bless his soul, was a Pulitzer Prize winning columnist. I had the opportunity to learn a great deal from such a great man. lesser extent, but also someone I intersected with, he was very kind to me in his time, was Dan Jenkins. I mean, both of these men are, in my opinion, among the very finest, not only for what they did in terms of writing and what they did, but as just consummate gentlemen. They're just top-tier people. So I've been lucky to have met people like that and others along the ride, but that's what makes golf a great game. You know, golf is all about relationships.

James Henderson
 0:04:29
 Yeah, very much is absolutely spot on. Out of interest, from your point of view, what made Dave Anderson so good at his job to be one of the few people to earn, was it Pulitzer Prize for sports commentary?

15
 0:04:46
 Pulitzer Prize for commentary.

Matt Ward
 0:04:47
 Is it three people that are sports commentators. There aren't that many. I don't know. I just don't know off the top of my head who they would be. But Dave had a very self-effacing style. I mean, you would bump into him and talk to him. And when somebody said you were the golf writer or you're the columnist for the New York Times, it's sort of like being with the London Times or any one of the major media outlets. I mean, this was before social media took off and now you have a lot of independent players that are all over the place. Just a very self-effacing guy and, you know, willing to, you know, give you opportunity to meet and talk with a lot of different people. I mean, he introduced me to a lot of people that I probably may have been an opportunity to meet, but he fast-tracked the process. And, you know, forever I'll be indebted to him. He was just a truly wonderful, wonderful guy, and very much not involved with ego. He didn't have to put his name out in front. Just a really wonderful guy. Dan Jenkins, the same thing. I mean, you know, tremendous writer in a lot of different ways, but just really smart, understood golf, and really understood what it's about to play at the highest of levels. And it really was a learning situation for me. And I certainly will be forever indebted to both of them, as well as many others who probably

14
 0:06:27
 I'm not going to be able to get into at length,

Matt Ward
 0:06:27
 but there are others along the way that have been really tremendous in terms of what their background has been and what opportunities it's provided me.

James Henderson
 0:06:36
 Well, that's the thing, golf is a network, isn't it? It's camaraderie, and particularly in America where the majority of these golf courses that you've rated, you can only get on if you know someone who's willing to take you. When you, sorry, going on from that point, I need to go back to your majors and Ryder

13
 0:07:02
 Cups.

12
 0:07:03
 Sure.

James Henderson
 0:07:04
 Major-wise, you've seen a hundred of them.

Matt Ward
 0:07:08
 Well, it's over a hundred. Over a hundred. It's over a hundred now.

James Henderson
 0:07:14
 Which ones stand out to you that were just truly great to watch or truly great to comment on?

Matt Ward
 0:07:20
 Well, I would say that it would probably mirror what many people probably would say are some of the greatest championships. I mean the 86 Masters to see Jack win in the ending of his career. Certainly, you can't downplay the successful victories by Tiger when he completed the Grand Slam at the Old Course at St. Andrews the first time. Tremendous. I mean, clearly his win at the US Open by 15 shots at Pebble Beach in 2000 is just, you know, that's just mind-boggling. That's just, there's no other way to describe that. And then, you know, on the other side of the coin, you know, when we talk about people and stuff, sometimes it's the unknown players that have emerged. You know, I mean, for example, this past year at the PGA Championship, Michael Block as an example, a guy that makes hole-in-one, he's played with Rory McIlroy and it was a tremendous show. I mean, here's a guy who's a journeyman player, you know, you get those opportunities. Sometimes you also see endings of tournaments that you wish they could have turned out differently. You know, the 0-9 Open Championship at Turnberry with Tom Watson. It still befuddles me, and I'm sure it probably does for Tom, how his 8-iron could not stick on the 18th green with his approach. Those are probably some that really come to mind that are unique. It's history-setting. That's what you're seeing. The majors are the link to the past. They're the link to Bob Jones, Francis Ouimet, old Tom Morris, I mean, you know, Walter Hagen, Ben Hogan. I mean, they are the ultimate barometer in terms of how you assess greatness. And, you know, the players themselves, they understand that, you know, better than anybody. Anybody who says that, you know, the majors aren't as important as, say, another tournament, well, I mean, you know, then they're kidding themselves because they're not really understanding what's at stake here. I mean, the greatest players have risen to the greatest occasion. That's why they're great. And that's why they're revered by people for all the accomplishments that they've done. It's just a tremendous opportunity to be on site and to see it firsthand. I still get chills being at these events and to just have the opportunity to even chat and interview a lot of the players throughout the years. It's been a great opportunity and one that I'm just always excited about as each year begins with the Masters.

James Henderson
 0:10:16
 In terms of people you have interviewed, actually no, we'll go on to that after. I want to say one thing. In terms of majors, people get forgotten about if they aren't major winners. The only real other way to get noticed is to have a great Ryder Cup career. And you've what, covered 12 now? All of them, yeah. I know you have a huge love for the Ryder Cup.

11
 0:10:43
 Why do you?

James Henderson
 0:10:44
 What's the driving force for that?

Matt Ward
 0:10:47
 I think it's the authenticity. It's not a self-created TV event. You know, the President's Cup was created by the PGA Tour as an opportunity to get in on the team spirit, the team activity. Also, the link. I mean, you know, when it was initially Great Britain and Ireland and then eventually was expanded to Europe in the early 80s period, it's the driving ingredient to the countries that have really embodied golf from the very beginnings. So I mean, to have a professional event, there is no payment to the players. That's another thing that's unique in professional golf. They do provide money on the American side to the players that play for the U.S. in terms of a favorite charity and stuff. But there's no direct payment to players. But it has a tie to the history of the game. And it's authentic in terms of match play, because obviously most of the key events, all of the majors are stroke play events. I mean, the PGA Championship was match play for many, many years before it went to the 72-hole format. But you know, it's unique in that regard. I mean, the only downside, I think, to the Ryder Cup is that the venues are somewhat questionable. It would be nice to see the venues be some of the old-style courses, which they did go to. But since the ramp-up of the financials that are involved here, it's oftentimes the person who's got the deepest pockets will have the host site for the Ryder Cup. But being that as the only lone, I wouldn't want to say negative, but the kind of only one downer, the passion that people feel about it. I mean, there's nothing like a Ryder Cup match. I've told this to people many times. You go to your first one, wherever it is, you will never, ever forget where you were. I mean, it is impossible to not know that, hey, this is really the the air, and I hate to use that hyperbole, but the air seems charged with what goes on. And when you're in a tight match, which unfortunately has not happened in recent Ryder Cup matches, the matches have been one-sided in terms of who would win, but when the matches are tight, oh, the pressure is, it's beyond words. And you've seen it on the reaction of the players themselves, whether they've won or they've lost. And it's an incredible situation. Rome was fantastic. So was Paris. So was Hazeltine. So will Bethpage when it comes in two years. And I'm happy to see it because it's going to be on my home turf. I played the black probably more times than any other golf course among them among the key ones that are rated that I've done and it's a special place so a lot of good memories and I'm looking forward to seeing it when it

James Henderson
 0:13:50
 gets there. It's exciting. Well it's just my next question was which golf courses do you think are the best for open well stroke play golf and match play golf and which ones have you watched the match play competitions on and thought this is really the one that I want to watch golf on. Well it depends

Matt Ward
 0:14:15
 upon how the players themselves play. I mean there was nothing more exciting than to see the Patrick Reid McIlroy match at Hazeltine. I have never seen golf over the first nine holes. That when you thought you saw it all, you were going to see one more thing on top of another thing, then on top of another thing. I have never seen play. And again, you know, their play leveled off on the back nine at Hazeltine. It, you know, I mean, if that play was that way for 18 holes, you'd probably have a heart attack because it was just incredible golf. It wasn't even so much that Hazeltine was unique for the, you know, for the golf course itself. It was for the magic that these two were able to provide for themselves. So, you know, it always depends upon, you know, the given match that you see, you know, and how these players are reacting to one another. That one comes to mind right away in the most present of times. I mean, there probably been other matches after you really think about, but that was that was incredible golf and I actually think it was the key to the Americans to stormrolling the Europeans that day when McElroy was beaten by Reed. That was really the opener. I know Reed's a bit of a controversial figure, but I do miss him

James Henderson
 0:15:36
 in a Ryder Cup setting, even though I support the opposition.

6
 0:15:39
 I think he's...

Matt Ward
 0:15:40
 Well, no, I think... and the flip side of the coin was, you know, you see players starting to emerge in their careers. I mean, when, you know, when Scotty Sheffler was paired against John Rahm at Whistling Straits, most people thought, well, this is not going to happen because Rahm will just steamroll him. Well, Scotty Sheffler had other plans. He birdied four of the first five holes and he took down the Spaniard and now Scottie Schaeffler is a perennial top three, top four world player. So the Ryder Cup was his opportunity to really break out and show people what he was about. And Oberg's just done that to Scottie Schaeffler as well. Turnabout is fair play. I mean, you know, but the Ryder Cup is about a unique event. And fortunately, it only happens once every two years. So we have a buildup to what goes on. You know, it's not overly done. Less is more for the Ryder Cup. It's great in the way it's handled. I just hope that, you know, that it will continue to draw the best players and obviously the ongoing situation between Live, the PGA Tour and the European side and how that all gets played out. You really want to see the best players play. And I think if that can be done, that will be great. I think it's great that Beth Page is upcoming. And then of course, then the matches go to Adair Manor, which will be an interesting place. But like I said before, I think it would be great if the Ryder Cup could go to some of the old-time traditional venues. The USGA has done that now with the US Open. And of course, the Open Championship is always on the Lynx course. So you're never going to see the Open on an inland layout. I mean, that's just not going to happen. And the PGA Championship, they've done similarly. They try to keep it now at the most noted venues, because when a player wins an event of that magnitude, you want to be able to say, I won on this golf course where so and so and so and so have won. And when that happens, it just elevates the standing of that player in terms of the achievement that they've won.

James Henderson
 0:18:00
 Well, two things I wanted to bring up there. Firstly, I heard that after Dair Manor in Europe it will be going on to a links course. I can't say which one, but I've heard it's a links course. I don't know if it's been released publicly or not.

Matt Ward
 0:18:17
 Well, I think that would, you know, again, this is something that, I mean, look, money is always, money is central to sport. Whether one likes it or not, money is a part of it. So you would hope that the organizers realize that they need to move these things very smartly in terms of how they go about it. I mean, look, I mean, Bethpage was the first municipally owned golf course to have the US open. I mean, and that didn't happen until 2002. So it was good to show people that the National Championship of American Golf can be played at a facility that any person can play if they wait their turn and plunk their money down to play. So I would hope that the organizers understand that the Ryder Cup should always have some tie to some of the old-time venues and not just get cooked up into whoever has the deepest pockets can afford to host the event.

James Henderson
 0:19:19
 Going on from that, or continuing on the same vein, we talked about how maybe the changes in golf course, but really golf courses don't really matter if they're going to be setting setting them up so much so to suit the team they picked. Is that something that you think they need to sort out?

Matt Ward
 0:19:43
 Well, I've written on this already. I think with the Ryder Cup, I think the way that the matches have gone recently, you can't continue. Look, I mean, there's no way to dictate an outcome in sport. You can do certain things, but if a team is superior to another team, then they could win by an overwhelming margin. But I do think that there are certain things that can be done. I have no issue with the home team setting up the golf course as they see fit. I mean, at the end of the day, the golf ball does not know who's hitting it or how old you are. I mean, you still have to play shots. You still have to win. I think the captains of each side probably get too much credit when they win and probably take too much heat when they lose, whoever it happens to be. It's just a question of performance. The pairings matter. I think you have to look at that. I also think that the Ryder Cup should possibly look at a format change where you, there's only 28 total points now. I don't see any reason why they can't increase that to say 44 points and have the singles start the Ryder Cup and then you have the team matches go in as they do now and then you end up with the singles matches. Only because the team matches for the most part, I wouldn't want to say they're kind of like the second tier banana in terms of the Ryder Cup because the single matches are what people really want to see. They want to see certain players possibly play against other players. I know Europe for many years wanted to keep the point totals down, the overall total amount of points that are contested, because they knew that they didn't have the depth of players to compete with the American side, probably have a top four or five players, and then hopefully they could keep other players out of the competition until the single matches. Well, that now has since changed because the quality of the golf is pretty even across the board. But I think they could do certain things that would really be beneficial. I mean, the other thing I think that would be great for the Ryder Cup, instead of having the players chosen by secret ballot, you have the players looking at each other, the captains that is, looking at each other like at a chess match, and you announce publicly who your player is going to be. You just put a name out there and say, hey, in this slot I'm putting Rory McIlroy. And then the other captain has to counter. Who is he going to put there? Or does he put somebody, does he put a player someplace else? I think that would really draw more attention and create more of a buzz prior to the next day's matches. I don't think that that would violate any spirit of the game, so to speak, but I think it would really be exciting for fans to build in. But again, I would be cautionary, even though I'm advocating certain things. Clearly, you don't want to change to make it look like you're changing to change. But let's keep in mind when Nicholas made that argument back in the early 80s and he said, you know, this is not, this is not working. Okay. We are winning these matches. The blowout at Walton Heath in 81, that was the tipping point. That was it. I mean, that was the greatest, probably the greatest American team that has ever been assembled and they wanted a wipeout, it was time. It was time to make the switch. So I don't think it's impossible for the Ryder Cup organizers to think about what other ways can we do this to keep the event where it needs to be. And, you know, we'll see how that plays out. I'm happy to hear what you just said. I mean, if a Lynx layout is being contemplated for a future Ryder Cup on the European side, I think that would be fantastic.

James Henderson
 0:23:42
 Yeah, it would be good fun. It would be very good fun. Going back to the same question that we kind of raised, was the best golf courses, how about for stroke play? Where's the best venues that you've watched a major at?

Matt Ward
 0:23:58
 Well, I have a particularly hunkering for Oakmont. Two of them, Oakmont and then on the open side, Mirafield. I think if you look at the roster of champions, minus one or two exceptions, they are bulletproof. They have certainly identified the greatest players who have ever played. I mean, if you ask Phil Mickelson right now, the greatest championship he ever won, he'll tell you the 66 he shot in the final round at Mirafield in the 2013 Open Championship. Because he himself would admit that if there was ever a major championship, he never saw himself winning. It would have been the Open. And to win the way he did, and to beat the field that he overcame, tremendous. And then Oakmont has proven itself many times over the years. I mean, Nicholas's first wing was at Oakmont professionally. Johnny Miller, 63. The indomitable fighting spirit of Larry Nelson overcoming Seve and Tom Watson. Clearly, Ernie L's emergence on the world scene comes with winning the US Open at Oakmont.

James Henderson
 0:25:20
 He won at Muirfield as well.

Matt Ward
 0:25:21
 There's two. He won at Muirfield as well. He stole my thunder. And then, Angel Cabrera, when he overcame Jim Furyk and Tiger Woods at Oakmont. And then, of course, DJ's win back in 2018. I mean, and I'm glad to see that the USGA has Oakmont on its rotation. Shinnecock to me would be probably one in one A. If I had to pick two on the American side, they would be one in one A. I have a great feeling, obviously, for the old course for all the obvious reasons that people state. So, I mean, I would say you would never go wrong in having them at the top of the heap.

James Henderson
 0:26:06
 They are consummate championship courses, especially Oakmont and Mirafield. Going back to, obviously you've interviewed a number of these famous golfers and around Brown majors as well. What's your greatest experience within an interview and who is your favorite interviewees?

Matt Ward
 0:26:32
 Well, that's a tough call. I would say that one of them has to be Lee Trevino. I remember asking Lee this question and it was at the end of the interview. I said, Lee, can you finish this sentence? I said, Lee Trevino is what? And he said, Matt, I'm honest. If you don't want to hear it bad, don't ask me. And I just, I thought that was a great reply. Another gentleman who I have the greatest respect for, he's a non-American player. I don't know why he does not get more attention. Some people think he's a little egocentric. I don't believe that because I believe he has every right to tout his accomplishments. Is Gary Player? I mean, to me, nine major championships. When somebody gets 10 major championships, they can tell Gary to pipe down. They don't have that many people above nine. There's only four that I can think of that have got more than nine major championships. Okay. Not, you know, when you, when you think about what this man accomplished, and then I had the opportunity to talk about it and, you know, learn more about him. He's incredible. He really is. I mean, Lee Trevino, his background and where he came from to rise to the level that he has. And I'll tell you, James, when we look at the four major championships, to me, the two open stand apart. I mean, if you really want to see somebody's golf ability, you start adding up and say, how many of those two did you win? And when you look at the list of the people who have done that, it's off the charts. I mean, Bob Jones won seven, Nicholas won seven, Tiger won six, Walter Hagen won six, Tom Watson won six. Now, not all of them won equal amounts, but you know, when you win the opens, nothing in disrespect to the masters of the PGA championship, they are the foundation of the game. And that is where golf started from. And that's how we measured greatness going way back to when somebody said, let's have a competition and see who's the best player.

James Henderson
 0:28:55
 Yeah, and everyone's welcome.

8
 0:28:57
 And everybody is open.

Matt Ward
 0:28:58
 If you can play, you have every opportunity. It's a little more convoluted today than it maybe was previously. I still get a charge out of the fact that when Hogan went over for his one-time visit, he had to play in the 36-0 qualifier to get into the Open Championship. I mean, that would be unheard of today, okay? But nonetheless, it's a democracy in terms of if you have the ability, you have the opportunity to tee it up and play. And I think that's great.

James Henderson
 0:29:30
 I think, going back to Gary Player, I think it was Muhammad Ali was once asked about his arrogance and he said, it's not arrogance if you can back it up.

Matt Ward
 0:29:38
 That's right. It's not bragging if you can do it. That's exactly right. But to be fair, I think that probably a lot of this, and I'm looking at it from the lens as an American, is we have a tendency to sometimes overplay the hand of the people who come out of the states and undervalue the talents of the people who are outside the States. And, you know, I have a huge respect, obviously, for what Arnold and Jack accomplished during the heights of their career. But let's not forget, the Big Three is the Big Three. And Gary Player, his record in winning a major championship over three decades and being winner. You know, he has every right to be proud of his efforts. They speak for themselves. And I just think that, you know, part of it too was coming from South Africa and Gary had to deal with, you know, the fact that apartheid was still ongoing during much of his career, much of his active playing career. Probably may have cast him in a different way, although he's not responsible. And he took clear actions to be supportive of players. I mean, he brought Lee Elder over to South Africa during, you know, during apartheid. But I just think that sometimes there's a tendency to overplay the talents of sometimes the players in the States and not really give full equal value to those who are playing from outside the American border. There's a great story about Gary Player's first ever open.

8
 0:31:16
 Do you know about this one?

James Henderson
 0:31:17
 The one at Mirfield?

Matt Ward
 0:31:18
 Are you talking about the one he won at Mirfield in 59? No, no, it's the first one he attended. I think it was a Lytham. He slept in the sand dunes. He didn't have the money or ability to rent anywhere,

James Henderson
 0:31:30
 so he just slept in the sand dunes with his golf clubs.

Matt Ward
 0:31:38
 I mean, if anybody's ever stood next to the man, and you look at his physique, I mean, he looks phenomenal at his age, now he's in his 80s now, I mean, he looks great. But when you think that this guy is going to be competing against, you know, when Jack was in his prime, younger, I mean, people don't remember this. I mean, I certainly only, I can only remember it vaguely because I was very, very young at the time. But you're taking on a guy who's hitting tee shots like Nicholas back then. Jack is extremely long. And, you know, Gary Player's tenacity, you know, as much as people talk about how many balls that Vijay Singh has probably hit in his career, Gary Player, I remember him saying, whatever Vijay's hit, you could double or triple it for me. Because, I mean, he had to to have outworked people. When you're on a 5'6", 5'7 frame and you weigh no more than 140 pounds soaking wet with the golf shoes on, okay, I don't know how you can beat people and do what he did. And I mean, he is truly one of the icons of the game and he deserves, in my opinion, all the credit that, you know, he deserves. And as I said before at the outset about Lee Trevino, Lee is completely, in my opinion, almost forgotten by many people about how great a player he was during the specter of his time frame. He was tremendous. I mean, ultimately, I've heard this said by many great teachers that have watched and played, and certainly players, among shotmakers Among shot makers in the all-time category, Lee Trevino is in the top two or three. There is no question about he could hit any shot at any time and have that ability to pull it off. And, you know, even to this day, it amazes me what his record was for the time frame that he was at the top of his game.

James Henderson
 0:33:35
 Another Muirfield winner. And the, who's the other two? I know it sounds ridiculous, but in terms of shot makers, do...

Matt Ward
 0:33:46
 Oh, you got to put Seve, right?

10
 0:33:48
 Probably up there.

Matt Ward
 0:33:49
 I don't think, I mean, I saw many of the shots. I unfortunately, it came too soon for me. I never saw the shot at Palm Beach Gardens that everybody talks about that Seve hit the three wood out of the bunker, fading it over the lip and getting it to within striking distance on the hall, which is probably acclaimed as probably one of the greatest shots that has ever been played all time. I don't think it's on even on TV. I don't think there's any video loop of that swing or that shot. But Seve would have to be, you know, up there. And of course, I, you know, people talk about, you know, Tiger Woods in a lot of ways, his creativity around the shots around the green, people talk about the length of Tiger, he had T shots and his putting, the ability to work the ball, to play different shots. Yeah, I would certainly put him up there. I did not see in the prime of their careers people like Hogan and Snead. But you know, I did see Trevino play and marveled at what he was able to do. But I would say, yes, Seve and probably Tiger have got to be mentioned close by. I mean, they were tremendous at what they were able to do. Just go reversing a wee bit, talking about the size of Gary Player versus Jack Nicklaus.

James Henderson
 0:35:09
 You told me a story about Jack Nicklaus and his money clip.

9
 0:35:14
 Are you able to tell that story?

Matt Ward
 0:35:16
 I had the opportunity one time, I forget where it was, I don't know if it was, Jack used to have a conference called State of the Bear where he would give his overall assessment of how golf was and he would do it in Florida, but I think I said, I think I, when the USGA announced that they were going to name the medal that is given to the US Open champion, the Jack Nicklaus medal, I think he was at golf house with Barbara Nicklaus. And I remember him pulling out his money clip. And I think somehow he was paying for something or just took it out. And I saw the insignia on it that looked like the PGA championship. And I asked him about it during when an interview was taking place. I said, Jack, I noticed your money clip. It said PGA championship on it. Or it said PGA something, could you elaborate on that?" And he said, well, yeah. He goes, I won the Long Drive contest prior to the 1963 PGA, and they used to have Long Drive exhibitions prior to the start of the PGA championship. And Jack hit the tee shot in the competition for the Long Drive that year, 343 yards. And this is with a persimmon-headed club and a balada golf ball. And you know, Jack was quite proud of that and he kept the money clip. And that record stayed in place for another 13 years. And he kept the money clip. And it was, you know, something that meant something to him that he had. And I just found that fascinating, just as a situation and having a discussion with him and he was really good enough to explain all the details and what it meant to him.

James Henderson
 0:36:57
 Absolutely amazing. I just can't fathom the distance of 3-4-3 with a Blatterball and a Persimmonwood. Absolutely amazing.

Matt Ward
 0:37:06
 One can only think about what he would do and that's why the Jones quote about Nicholas at the Masters is always so appropriate. I mean he plays a game with which I'm unfamiliar with. I mean that is to think that a 13-time major winner and the caliber of man and golfer that Bob Jones was to say that of Nicholas to me that's the ultimate compliment that could be

James Henderson
 0:37:29
 paid. Yeah, oh imagine imagine having a young guy and Tiger Woods turning around around to you and been like, this guy plays a different game.

8
 0:37:40
 Crazy.

Matt Ward
 0:37:41
 Well, Jack and Arnold both said when they saw Tiger play together, whatever we have won at the Masters, you could combine that total, we think that's what he's going to

6
 0:37:49
 win.

Matt Ward
 0:37:50
 I mean, these are people that don't lend themselves to hyperbole. I will tell you right now, I mean, one thing about elite players, you've got to earn the respect to be paid the compliment. They're not throwing it away. I will share with you real quickly. Lee Trevino, I asked him one time, I said, Lee, as a great player, and he cut me off and he said, Matt, let me just cut you off there. The word great is way overused in sport and in golf. There are only a handful of great players. Jack Nicklaus is a great player. Arnold Palmer is a great player. And he even said himself, he goes, I'm very good, but to be fair, you know, I don't consider myself to be a great player. I think he's being a little modest when he said that, but it just shows me, and I think it would show anybody, that when you are at that level, you are paid the compliment when you've earned it. They don't give it away. And when it's done, it's done with that kind of respect because you've earned it in the toughest of situations under major championship scrutiny when you're coming down the stretch of an event. That's where it all happens. That's where you find out who can play.

James Henderson
 0:39:10
 Well, that's the amazing thing about Jack is Jack's record of seconds is ridiculous.

Matt Ward
 0:39:17
 Well you know what, he looks upon that in a couple of ways. In some ways, he's been teased about that, that he left on the table maybe winning five or six that he should have won. And you know, he'll be the first to admit that the Nicholas approach when playing was to play, you know, conservative golf. Keep the ball in play, don't make any big numbers. Let them beat you because over 72 holes Jack figured, hey, if I play reasonably well for 72, I'm going to be in on it. But you're absolutely right. I mean, ultimately, when you add it up, the first, the seconds, the top threes, the top fives, the top ten, there was a stretch. I did an article on this on the Open Championship between 63 and 81. I don't think Jack was out of the top five maybe more than two or three times, period. And when you think about the weather and the vagaries of what the weather can be for the Open, whether you're teeing off in the AM or the PM shift or whatever it is, the model of consistency time after time after time is mind-boggling. And I think in fairness, too much of sport only looks back at the last five minutes, and they don't recognize that the really great players that came up in the previous generation that took place, or generations, make no mistake about it, not everybody from years ago would have still played at a high level with today's competition. But there are other players who would have certainly been ready to go with today's equipment against anybody that was playing, whoever it is. And we can always have these barroom discussions about who's better, this one or that one. But the Nicklaus record speaks for itself. Anybody who looks at it, unless your eyes are closed, it's there to see, it's clear.

3
 0:41:16
 No question about it. Interestingly, you did say something that was quite interesting about this yesterday

James Henderson
 0:41:22
 when we had a chat, that the fields Nicholas had to play against were extremely tough over

Matt Ward
 0:41:31
 Well at the very top, I would qualify that at the very, very top of the list. I don't think the depth of the players that Jack played against is anything close to what Tiger played. But the thing that I would say is, is that the elite players that Jack competed against had the capability and capacity to certainly play with him and beat him on certain occasions. Arnold Palmer, Billy Casper, Lee Trevino, Gary Player, Tom Watson, Johnny Miller, Tom Weiskopf, Seve towards the end of Jack's career, Greg Norman. I mean, all those players that I just named, they are clearly Hall of Famers. There is no, there's not one name that I just mentioned. Well, I have to think about it. Oh, there's no thinking about it. They're there. On the flip side, to be fair to Tiger, he only has a handful of really what I would call bona fide Hall of Famers that he faced up against. I mean, Ernie Els, certainly, Phil Mickelson, Vijay Singh. Probably you can make the case for Padraic Arrington, okay, because he has three major championships. But the thing that separates Tiger, in my mind, and he has an argument for him is the manner of his victories. They were overwhelming victories. I mean, 15 shots in the U.S. Open. I mean, that is beyond mind-boggling. And then to win the Open Championship at St. Andrews and never be in a bunker in 2000. I think he won by eight, okay? So you can go into this argument back and forth, well, did Jack have the top players that he played against? But I think in fairness, you know, to Tiger's situation, I have never seen James players that when they walked up on the first tee and they were introduced to Tiger, because I saw I don't know how many majors he's played in. And they were literally shaking in their boots. They knew they were beaten as soon as they made the introduction. And Tiger knew that, okay? Because with the exception, there was only a handful of players, and they were both lesser-named players that pushed him. Rocco Mediate pushed him at the 08 US Open, and of course, Bob May did that in the 2000 PGA Championship at Valhalla. I mean, it was lesser-known players, I should say, that really pushed Tiger. I mean, you don't have in the record book of Mickelson Woods, mano a mano, one-on-one battle like he did with Watson and Nicholas at Turnberry. You don't have that because that never happened. They were in contention, but they were never really one-on-one with each other. Tiger had the ability to just simply cause players to just, they just simply could not match what he did, period. And Ernie Els and Phil Mickelson, if they didn't have Tiger Woods out there, probably would have won two to three, maybe four, who knows how many major championships. Tiger just simply obliterated the competition. I mean, just took them out completely to win seven of 11 majors in a stretch. That is unheard of in modern golf and I don't think that will I can't see how that could be topped unless you get a guy who's beyond Tiger and I'd have to see that to believe it because he was awesome

James Henderson
 0:45:02
 I've got a good argument for why that won't happen and it's the same reason you're talking about Nicholas versus Tiger in the fact that last place or last place after the cut or whatever, the quality of golfer in that position can easily be a multiple major winner now, whereas before you probably had a few group of them. That quality gap between last place and first place is reduced to such small margins in the modern game?

Matt Ward
 0:45:38
 Oh yeah, I mean, I will tell you in the history of my time in covering the majors and players that I've seen, the caliber of global golf today is on par. I mean, there are players, I've gone to a number of Korn Ferry events and I marvel at how many guys are on the Korn Ferry tour and, you know, frankly, and I will say this as a compliment to Phil Mickelson, even though people may have differences of opinion on him on a couple of things. But when Mickelson said that the whole purpose of Live was to have leverage over the PGA Tour, the PGA Tour had become too much of a closed shop and allowed too many players to kind of hang on when in reality a lot of the younger talent didn't really have a place to go because you could only raise up it so I mean people don't realize this Brooks Koepka started his career as a journeyman player going to Europe with no status at all before coming back and having achieved some six obviously some success and then rising up to take you know his place you know in terms of major championships I mean you know there's a lot of the global talent that's engulfed today is stunning. And it's important to make sure that this younger talent is given an opportunity to play at the highest level. There's just, you know, there's an opportunity that should not be missed. And sadly, you know, for many years, the way the structure of the system was, at least on the PGA Tour, when you have a top 125 listing, you can have somebody have one or two good finishes in a year and they stay in the top 125. But in reality, the bulk of their play is just not that good to merit the exemption that they're being given. So you're seeing a restructuring of that with the way the PGA Tour is going to go forward. But to get to your point, which I completely concur with, global golf today and the talent that is out there is just tremendous. Now, the key thing will be is whether or not this young talent can successfully win at the highest of levels. That's the unknown question. I mean, until Cameron Smith won the Open Championship at St. Andrews, most people said, yeah, he's a talented Australian golfer. But when he won, that changes the narrative completely, because now you're in a position of where you are a major champion. It validated all of the belief of his talent. And the same thing has been done in validation with Roy McIlroy and Brooks Koepka. I mean, they are truly among the most gifted players on the planet.

James Henderson
 0:48:25
 Yeah, absolutely agree. I was just trying to think about, I don't know the full story, but there was a great story about Brooks Koepka's caddy in Europe being wanted in America, so we've talked a lot about the brilliance of championship golf. Maybe we should switch to talking about golf courses. Happy with that? Let's do it. talking about it, how, should we start off just by asking, you played 829 golf courses. I think I'd like to start by asking, well you've been rated. Those are the ones that I've reviewed, but globally I've played over 2000. Sorry, I meant ratings. Sorry about that. Yeah, no, that was my fault. So you've rated 829, you've played 2000 golf courses globally. How has golf course architecture changed for you since you started reviewing to now?

Matt Ward
 0:49:47
 Well, I think one of the things that you learn, if you're going to do any type of understanding of, and I'm not an architect, okay, I mean, I haven't designed a golf course. I mean, I'm just somebody who's interested in seeing it. I've been exposed to talking to architects of all types about what they do and how they do it. I think one of the good things that's happened is that in the most modern sense now, golf has realized that it needs to contribute to the environment. We can't use an excessive amount of fertilizers, pesticides. I think, you know, more than ever, Gulf is now realizing that it needs to be a willing partner and collaborator in making sure that it's environmentally connected to the things that have got to get done, and specifically about water usage. Because water, someone said this and I think it's very true, water is the oil of the 21st century. How water is going to be used, how much of it. I can tell you that this is a big time discussion in the United States, in the Southwest, when you get towards Arizona, the California desert, the Nevada desert. You know, there have been new rules and regulations put in. Superintendents face this every day. Architects certainly have to be conscious of this. So, I would say that over the course of the time that I've been doing this, certainly the presentation of a golf course, knowing how much should be done from putting on pesticides, fertilizers, etc., etc., water usage. Certainly a lot of those things have really changed from what they were when I first started playing golf and to now. I mean, it's really changed. So from the standpoint of architecture, I think people are starting to realize that you didn't, you know, especially in the States, I mean, some of these courses are so over watered in the States that the connection to the ground game is now really a big, big discussion item. I mean, clearly with Lynx golf, the ground game is central to playing the golf. And that's the majesty of playing Lynx golf. You have to know how to use the ground. I mean, what's the old Scottish expression? The game really starts when the ball touches the ground. And I think that's really true. I think in the States, sometimes what's happened is people have looked at Augusta National and said, well, we have to have our golf course like Augusta, and they don't realize the amount of steps that Augusta does to have the conditioning that it does. And it's really unnecessary to have, you know, that kind of manicuring to the level that it's done. So I think there's a lot of factors strategically in how golf is designed, but also in the presentation of how the golf courses are being produced.

James Henderson
 0:52:59
 Well, is there anything you think that's impacting golf architecture in the process or the development of golf courses that's a negative that's changed?

Matt Ward
 0:53:10
 Well, I mean, the real estate thing is the thing that's driven golf course development globally. Somebody wants to have their house. I think back to when Samuel Morse, when he created Pebble Beach, somebody actually said, this would be a good place for the houses, and he cut them off. He said, no, think about what golf would be at Pebble Beach if we didn't have that stretch of holes right on Carmel Bay and the Monterey Peninsula and what that would mean. You know, real estate basically made Florida golf happen. Real estate made Arizona golf happen because people could buy a home. You know, the architects go through this battle all the time with developers because, you know, the developer wants to sell lots that can make money for their development, while the architect wants to use that particular piece of land for maybe a couple of golf holes because they can showcase the talent that they have as an architect. And then you go in the back and forth of, okay, how do we, how do we resolve this? You know, sad to say, one of my favorite Nicholas courses, Cabo del Sol, the ocean course then, and Cabo San Lucas, they eliminated the last couple of holes just because the new ownership came in and said, well, we're going to build something here. All right. And they had to figure out how to do a rerouting or redesign of certain holes. Real estate has been both a positive and you could say probably a negative because without the real estate being used, well, there wouldn't be the golf. So you have to say how many situations out there were really good and how many were not so good. And I could probably go through a list of some that were probably good if I gave it some time to think and some that weren't. It's sad to say a lot of stuff that happens in American golf has been trying to create elements that use the golf but are not necessarily tied to the profit side of the development. So golf is more of an add-on than the actual creation of it.

James Henderson
 0:55:24
 But golf wasn't, didn't have the value that it does now.

Matt Ward
 0:55:33
 Well it does, but then I go back to those other issues which is golf is in a different place in 2023 because of water usage. I think this is a very big topic that's only going to get more so in the years to come. I mean, at the end of the day, when you add it up, golf is a game. To use that much water on a golf course when you have other higher priority needs, golf is going to have to be, I mean, golf is already sensitive to those needs. I mean, you talk to the superintendents of many facilities, they're very smart about how water usage is going to be. And the architects are being equally smart in trying to create golf courses that, you know, are not going to see a heavy amount of water usage. But you know, there's always been, James, and I can tell you this from having written on it, the environmentalists that are out there and the people in the golf lane have not always been, let's just say, cordial friends of each other. In some cases, there's been a lot of back and forth between the groups. And golf is going to have to figure out how to be environmentally more sensitive, even with all the good steps that have been done going forward, because water usage and how it's done is not going to go away. It's going to only accelerate in a lot of parts in the globe where golf is being played actively.

James Henderson
 0:57:00
 Yeah, I completely agree with that. It's a very obvious game that people seem to catch the bug when they either get to a age or because it's one of the few sports that you can actually do at all ages.

Matt Ward
 0:57:17
 Yeah, I mean, the greatness of golf is exactly that. I think one of the things that you're seeing in golf today, especially in the States, you're seeing alternate type golf. In other words, we have short courses now that have been put in play at a lot of the main golf courses. I mean, golf is a tough game and there's a certain amount of athleticism that's certainly involved. It takes time to play it, which is probably the number one thing that concerns where golf goes. So, you're seeing a lot of push to get people involved with the game. Simulators are big. I mean, somebody told me this story. I don't know who did, but somebody told me this, somebody that I know who goes to South Korea, that there are more simulators there in play in Seoul than there are Starbucks coffee shops. And that just blew me away when I heard that. I said, my God, there are more simulators. And because land is extremely expensive in South Korea, especially by Seoul, there has to be other avenues for people that want to play the game. So you are seeing that development in golf, which is shorter courses, more friendlier courses to play. I mean, the idea of creating an 8,000-yard golf course that is 77 rated or 78 rated from the back tees with a slope of 150, that is just mind-bogglingly stupid because nobody can play it, exception of maybe the extreme elite players. You're seeing architects now trying to create 12 whole golf courses, 15 whole golf courses. 18 is not a set number. It's the number that's traditional. You have to bring new players into the sport, and you have to do it in a way so that they're not overwhelmed by the difficulty that it takes to be a golfer because it's not an easy game by any chance. We all know it's just not. And so you're seeing these alternatives. I mean Topgolf happens to be one thing that comes to mind. There are other alternative companies that have started to emerge.

James Henderson
 0:59:33
 There's a lot of nine-hole courses becoming cool like Sweetens Cove and I've always said 12 holes is perfect.

Matt Ward
 0:59:41
 But I mean, how can people today with people having such an active calendar, when you say to somebody, I mean, I was one of those guys that used to drive over to Bethpage and sit in that parking lot at 2, 3 in the morning and wait until sunrise to play with the other chums of mine, my pals, and you know, you're talking a 12-hour slice of your day is taken out. I mean, and that was before people had families and other obligations. People don't have that kind of availability of time. So...

James Henderson
 1:00:17
 Speaking about a place that will beat you up if you're not quite ready for it.

Matt Ward
 1:00:21
 Well, yeah, the black, I wrote this one time, the black is the equivalent of meeting Darth Vader in a lightsaber fight. You're going to die. I mean, you're just not going to make it, okay, because you just don't have the game. I mean, my father, for many years, told me, he said, I'm not going to bring you out to the black until you can play at a certain level. And then when you finally go out there and you see what you got to do. You know, it's mind-boggling. Not to carry on with this and to tout my success in golf, but one of my proudest moments playing the game was in qualifying for the National Public Links and finishing second at the black back in 1984. I'll never forget that because I know what it is. To give you an idea, James, not to bandy this too hard and sound like a self-promotion, but in the New York section, there was 150 players for five spots. And you had to break 85 to come back for the second 18. Only 38 players came back. And only 10 of those broke 80. And I shot 153 for two days, and this was on the black horse that was not prepped like it was for the US Open. So you could get a lie where the ball is sitting in anything out there. And I take great pride in that because, you know, I wish my father was alive to have seen it, but the black is a special place. You just can't, they don't put that warning sign on the first tee just for hyperbole. You got to have game to play out there. It's the real deal. It's like a double diamond hill in skiing. You don't do it right, you'll come down in a body bag. I mean, it's over. There's no way out. You have to hit the ball. And to see a guy like Tiger Woods win the first US Open there in 2002, that was just, to me, that was like the most amazing thing because the greatest player won on the most demanding of golf courses.

James Henderson
 1:02:33
 Out of interest, how important is it for the growth of the game that courses that are public hosting major championships?

Matt Ward
 1:02:46
 it this way. I don't think any public facility, Bethpage was a state park, it has 90 holes of golf. The Black is part of four other different golf courses. So you can play other courses that are there. You don't have to prep just a singular standalone like Chambers Bay did in Washington State. That's a standalone course owned by, I think it's Pierce County in that area. I think it has to be mindful of the fact that when you have tax dollars involved, you have to be sensitive to the fact that a U.S. Open or a PGA Championship, they only come to an area once every 12 years, 13 years at best. You have to say to yourself, our mission. Our mission is really not to build some huge edifice that's only going to be used once in 12, 13 years, but can we provide entertainment, like you said before, a 12-hole golf course? Something that can give people fun and entertainment. I think that's really where governmental facilities need to go because they're there to really whet the appetite for people who want to play and then be able to graduate up to the level of other golf courses that are out there. I think, you know, there's so many needs that a municipality or a county or a state has. Golf shouldn't really be a vehicle to attract, say, major championships or PGA Tour events. It really should be about how do we provide, you know, an entertainment element so that people can play golf for a lifetime? And they don't have to play golf on 8,000-yard golf courses. They really should be playing golf on 5,000-yard golf courses. Golf courses that provide a lot of fun so that they'll come back to play. And it'll be open. Golf course doesn't need to be long to be hard.

James Henderson
 1:04:46
 Muirfield's never measured over 7,000 and I'm open, I don't think.

Matt Ward
 1:04:52
 Well, that's true. And until recent years, until they really had to create it, the old course never did. I mean, you know, you don't really need to go this direction.

James Henderson
 1:05:04
 Well, Muirfield, there was only one person under par in film medicine at the last. So, it's not the direction you need to go in. going and I know for a fact there's people like Rhys Jones and other people who used to set up these championships. They know that people have

Matt Ward
 1:05:24
 the knowledge of how to make golf courses difficult, not long. Well, greatness is not measured by the difficult meter alone. I mean it's measured by, you know, the strategic qualities. I mean that was one of the interesting things that Jones and McKenzie created when they created Augusta National, which was it was supposed to be an Inland Lynx pattern after the old course. And you know, you have this ebb and flow of holes that you could be taking high risk to get high reward. It doesn't have to be playing shorter courses, not longer courses. The time that it takes to play, I mean, let's be real, James, I mean, it takes time to make a seven and eight on a hole, okay? I mean, you don't make sevens and eights on holes quickly. It takes time. Now, pity the poor person who's got to be next to somebody making seven and eight on

7
 1:06:23
 a hole.

Matt Ward
 1:06:24
 You know, nobody's having fun while that's going on. But you have to convince players.

James Henderson
 1:06:31
 I tell you what, Matt, I've seen a friend make a 12 the other day with a 4-putt.

4
 1:06:35
 It was hilarious.

6
 1:06:36
 Well, it is.

Matt Ward
 1:06:37
 If they do it one time only, if you have to do that every hole, eventually you would be finding somebody else to play with or they'd find somebody else to play with. The thing is, the courses, you know, we have this tendency sometimes to think, let's create what the tour players play. The average player cannot have a tour-level golf course that they have to face every day. They just can't handle it. They're just not good enough to take them on. I will tell you this, when the USGA created the campaign Play It Forward, they had many obstacles because many people said, well, I don't want to play. That's not real golf. You know, if I play at 6,000 yards, that's not real golf. And when you put them at 6,000 yards, they didn't really score that much better. OK, because if they were playing something that was designed correctly, you still got to get the ball into the hole. They didn't have the ability level, but at least by having less length, they didn't have to worry about always hitting fairway medals for second shots. They had no chance of getting home on a par-4 that was, say, greater than 400 yards. People watch television and they automatically think, hey, I just saw Rory McIlroy just bomb one. Well, excuse me, your name's not Rory. Or if it is, it's not McElroy at the end. You just don't have the game to play at that level. And what's critical for me is when I used to go to the black course, I would see people go out there and they just had this desire to get their butt kicked. And it was like, what are you doing out here? You have no business being out here because you just don't have the game to play. But we have to provide playgrounds for people to play so that they can understand what the fun is about. You can't do it with golf courses that are too long, too many bunkers, too many water hazards or penalty areas. It's just not consistent. That's the joy of length golf. You can play a ground game if you're not able to hit the ball aerially through the air, you can hit shots that can use the ground and the design allows for certain mounding to take place where the ball can roll into an advantageous position if it's correctly executed.

3
 1:09:06
 But if it's not…

James Henderson
 1:09:07
 But the interesting thing about that though is a lot of the majority of Lynx courses are 6-3, 6-5 off the whites. So in America you've got no run out, but yet they desire 7-2. What's going on there?

Matt Ward
 1:09:28
 Well, a part of it is, look, I mean, they're trying to sell a product. You know, James, I got to tell you this. I mean, there are people that, you know, there's a famous line from Clint Eastwood in one of his movies where he says, a man's got to know his limitations. And a lot of people just don't. I mean, they just, they don't realize that, you know, when you measure shots, one of the great things about analytics today, because now you can get your own little portable track man to go with you, is you can actually understand how far do you carry the ball consistently? How much do you hit each club consistently? And the numbers are there to be seen. And the average, I don't know what it was. I think the average male golfer's tee shot was like 220 in the air. I think women was about 160, 170. I could be off on those numbers by a little bit. But the golf courses in America, they were built basically in the 1980s and 1990s. Too many of them were designed with being overly difficult. I mean, Nicholas himself will admit that when he was designing courses initially, he was almost building them for himself and his ability level. Now he's come to realize that, you know, we need to have golf that's more fun. And I think that's one of the things that Mike Kaiser did when Band and Dunes was created. He understood that I want to give people an opportunity to have fun and to have designs that really mimic much of what they have always enjoyed when they've played True Links courses. And I think Mike Kaiser and what he's done has been brilliant for what has taken place.

James Henderson
 1:11:13
 Yeah, no, I agree with that completely. I'm going to move on to one little thing for you, and it's something I ask everyone. What's your five favourite golf courses? I've had people say 13, but what are the ones that are just memorable to you, the most memorable ones that you've rated or been to?

Matt Ward
 1:11:39
 Well, I would say that if the weather conditions allow, okay, and that's always a caveat with every place because you want to see places. I would say probably Eastern Long Island and I would probably have as one and one A because you can play them, they're right next to each other. I have done it, played both on the same day, is the National Golf Links of America and Shinnecock Hills. I mean, to me, what McDonald created at National Golf Links is tremendous. And then, of course, next door with Shinnecock William Flynn design, it's stellar. National was not manipulated, and I mean that in a positive way, to be a championship setting, but it provides all of the template holes from probably as good as the Redan is at North Barrack, okay? The Redan at National is supreme. I mean, it's really fantastic.

James Henderson
 1:12:53
 Well, I'm a member of North Berwick and I tell you what, when there's a stiff breeze into and you've got the Redan coming up, you're not a happy boy.

Matt Ward
 1:13:01
 Well, no, but, and again, I'm not denying anything, but North Berwick is a tremendous place.

James Henderson
 1:13:09
 Oh, no, no, I know you're playing into

4
 1:13:19
 it.

Matt Ward
 1:13:20
 I mean, you have to, I mean, but more accessible. You know, I would say that, you know, if someone were to say, I mean, I think it gets a lot of I'll give you another. So I always look at it in terms of can you give me two courses that are next to each other that I could play in a day? And I would look at it in terms of if I had to say experiences, I wouldn't rate them by a singularity. So if you said to me, Matt, give me one course, I could do that, but I would probably say, you know what, if I'm at a given place and I've got a June day when the sunlight is going to be shining for a good bit, and I've got two rounds that I could put together because they're right next to each other or close by, yeah, I would say national, and then I would say Shinnecock. I could easily say Pebble Beach and Cypress Point. Both of them are unique for what they provide. They're different golf courses. They're not the same. That would be something along the lines that I would do. I'd have to look at it in terms of give me two courses that I could probably do. I mean, if I had to say it across the pond, although they're right not next to each other, it takes a little bit of a car ride if somebody was fortunate to play, say, county down and play at Portrush. Okay, that's a little bit of a gap between them in terms of time. So it's not like you just literally walk across the street and play both of them. But I would have to look at it in terms of give me 36 holes with an ideal foursome with caddies, no power cart, you have to walk because walking is the spirit of the game. That would be something that I'd have to set up, something like that.

6
 1:15:01
 Okay.

James Henderson
 1:15:02
 And from there, how about golf courses that you think are under-respected?

Matt Ward
 1:15:07
 Oh, that list would be... That's just, yeah, I think what people have to understand is having a championship is not the only determinant about a great course having architecture of a high level, because those courses have to be manipulated to some degree. And I don't mean, again, I'll emphasize, I don't mean manipulation in a bad way, but they have to be. I mean, to take on a guy like Rory McIlroy or Brooks Koepka. I mean, you have to have at least two to three 500-yard par fours in the mix, at least, because these guys are just bombing the ball out there. For the average player, that's incomprehensible. I mean, if I had to name places, I mean, one that comes to mind, and people can look up the review that I did as well as others, I mean, Eastford Hull in Cape Cod in Massachusetts, fantastic golf course. It's not long, okay, but it's right on the Cape Cod Peninsula as one is playing. Spectacular design. Keith Foster did the updating of the golf course, did a spectacular job. I look at golf courses, I want to see, does 6400 happen. I mean, that's one of the joys of Marion in Philadelphia, because although the course has now been maxed out to 6,900, for many years it played at a maximum of 6,500. And there isn't a listing of courses where Marion is not easily in the top 10, top 15 in the world. And it wasn't based on length alone, although it's been lengthened to deal with some of the championships. So yeah, there's probably quite a few. I mean, in fairness, I would have to probably think about it in terms of, I mean, Cypress Point is one of my favorites to play. It's not long. It's probably 6,500, okay, at most. It is continually cited as one of the top five, rightly so, in the world, what it provides. Yeah, so I would say that, yeah, there's plenty of courses. Crystal Downs in Michigan is another one. It's a McKenzie design. It's another one that comes to mind. It's not long, but boy, it has everything that you can handle. So yeah, there's a lot of, and you touched upon before, you know, in the UK and Ireland. I mean, one of my favorites, I mean, again, people should go play it more than they play Counting Down. Go over and play Ardglass, for God's sakes. I mean, Ardglass is a wonderful little golf course that people don't really talk about, but it provides so many fun holes to play and is not as penal as the championship course is at Counting Down. And I don't mean to downplay Counting Down, but boy, you better be ready to play when you're on something that's at the world-class level, the Deaf places.

James Henderson
 1:18:07
 Well, Matt, thanks very much for coming on. It's been a joy and a pleasure.

Matt Ward
 1:18:13
 I hope I haven't bored you to death.

5
 1:18:15
 That's all I can hope for.

4
 1:18:16
 No, not at all.

James Henderson
 1:18:17
 I'd just like to say a special thank you to Matt. I think this might be a two-parter. I'd just like to say thank you to Veltor, Anderson and Liam for reaching out to me. Those guys work at Royal Dublin Golf Club. They were over in East Lothian and gave me a call. So I went and played with them. I had a great day. I think I'm going to have a return fixture. Veltor next time please don't beat me so badly. If you want to reach out, James at top100golfcourses.com or just on the Instagram official top 100 and please If you want to reach out, James at top100golfcourses.com or just on the Instagram official top 100 and please remember play fast lunch slow

 
 
 Transcribed with Cockatoo