Episode 109: English Rankings

In this episode of Top 100 Clubhouse, the guys explore whether England now offers better value golf than Scotland, and there’s also a closer look at how lesser-known, more affordable courses are climbing the rankings; raising questions about what truly defines a “top” course.

🔗 Links & Resources
🌐 Website: Top 100 Golf Courses
https://www.top100golfcourses.com/
🧢 Official Merch:
https://shop.top100golfcourses.com/
✈️ Lockhart Travel Club:
https://www.lockharttravelclub.com/me...


Chapters

00:00 Introduction
01:48 Upcoming England Rankings and Their Importance
04:03 Value of Golf in England vs. Scotland
06:54 Best Value Golf Courses in England
09:35 Challenges in Ranking English Golf Courses
20:52 Golf IQ on Display at The Masters
22:53 The Augusta Effect on Golf Course Architecture
30:00 What Makes English Golf Courses Different?
34:46 Increasing Awareness of Golf Course Architecture
44:27 Augusta Going Firm and Fast
49:55 New Entries in the Top 100 England Golf Course Rankings
59:59 Honourable Mentions & Clyde Johnson
1:05:03 Technical Mentions on Rankings & Fake Panellists

Transcript

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we've made changes I know you're gonna like them

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I think it's about options

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it's about strategic options

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releasing the running game

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it's not the running game necessarily

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as a premium above the aerial game

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of course is under 50 years

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the net fall is quite dramatic in this list

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it's a lesson that every golfer on the planet

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should take which is look at your golf course

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understand where the spaces

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understand how to avoid the hazards

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play angles and your enjoyment will go up

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and your score will go down

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it's incumbent on every golfer to understand golf

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architecture at least for their own selfish enjoyment

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but more importantly for the good of the game

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rankings are a reflection of the consensus of the panel

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and I think perhaps in the past

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because something was new and unique

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big old brush really green

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really white really blue

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all of those colour palettes in the last 20 years

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probably a lot of people were very much

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impressed with those types of things

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because it was something that maybe wasn't normal

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or common in England

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they had a bit of an inflated view

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I mean the game is an amateur game

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I mean the professional side of it

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you know

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there are idols and heroes and fun to watch them play

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but I mean if it weren't for amateur golf

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there would be no golf

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you have to remember when you play a golf course

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and you're out there for four hours or whatever

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you're only hitting the

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you're only hitting a ball for what 15 minutes of that

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so there's a lot of time to look around

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hello and welcome to another episode of the Top 100

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Clubhouse podcast

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I'm your host James Henderson

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I'm with uh the ever present Jasper Myers

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editor of Top 100 and first time uh

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pod contributor and Simon Barrington

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how you doing Simon hi James

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thank you for having me on the uh Top 100 podcast

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oh it's more than more than welcome

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it's great to have you on the on the team

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so Simon

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for the people that don't know is a mathematician

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he's a financier by trade

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and he has a love of James Brad

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is that fair enough Simon

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I think that's I think that's a fair reflection

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yes

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my both both both profession and architectural passion

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well we've

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been trying to do something

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around James Braid with you

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but the one thing I would say is

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if anyone who hasn't listened to it

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there's a 3

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part of the cookie Jar did with Simon on James Braid

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that I think is absolutely superb

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one of the best

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podcast I've listened to over the last few years

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so if you want to check out Simon's

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amazing knowledge about trade

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please uh check that out this week

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we are actually are we a week ahead Jasper

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of the ranking release for England

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yes so we're recording this Friday the 10th

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so it's masters uh week it's Friday of the Masters

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we start to have some

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ranking releases for the nine England regions

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go out uh

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next week

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and then the full English ranking will go out uh

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on socials and live on the website on the 26th

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so we've effectively got two weeks of English content

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uh across socials and on the website

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and then the grand reveal is April 26th

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so if you're listening to the podcast

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and you haven't signed up for the newsletter um

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head over to the website

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put in your email address

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and you'll get a early bird

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email with the updated rankings uh

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for England so you'll be the

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you'll have something to talk about Saturday

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the 25th at the club and then officially it comes out

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uh on the Sunday the 26th

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so everybody

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can digest it and talk around the club with it

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yeah this is a little taster

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and hopefully we'll get some of the uh

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the gossip going around the England rankings

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I can already imagine the situation

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you're sitting there it's like

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oh I know where Sussex it is at

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uh whatever and they're like

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no no

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I checked it last night it's it blah blah blah

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it's like well

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check tomorrow yeah

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that's it yeah

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there'll be a little bit of that

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um so yeah

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we we know that lots of people use the rankings

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especially for travel uh

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England is by far uh one of the best used bits

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of the website if you will gets more traffic mostly uh

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more than anyone else and London itself is uh

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one of the biggest cities where

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where people use the site so um yeah

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we'll try and get uh

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try and give any of any one of our loyal listeners

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readers a little bit of a a leg up Jasper

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I know we have a huge

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contingent of people on the website that are English

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or Brits and do you reckon the use of the websites

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not just because of that but

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because of the fact that England

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is still very accessible in price

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and in quality yeah

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I think that's a fair estimation

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I mean at the really really high end of English golf

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it still doesn't get to the heady heights of um

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Ireland and Scotland so I mean

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just looking very

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Burkdale has four 9 5 this year and that is

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I mean you've got Sunnydale

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which is 4:50 around and then you've got Burkdale 4

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9 5

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uh Saint George's is 400 peak along with Lytham

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so I think you see a little bit in Liverpool

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so you see a little bit of the

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the recent open venues who are riding that wave of

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perhaps American tourists who are coming over

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especially the fact that you've got uh

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Lytham probably hosting the open soon

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in the next couple of years

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uh I think that's kind of one of the

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golf's worst kept secrets at this point

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um Berkdale this year and then Hoylake recently so I

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they're cashing in which is is fine for the club

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we understand why that happens

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and then Sunnydale just has that premium

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with probably the best 36 in the world

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uh and then the West London uh premium

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so that being said

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once you get past those kind of top four or five clubs

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the cost plummets in England

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it's probably for world class golf

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England is still and even courses around London

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are still the best value golf

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to be had in Britain and Ireland

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which is amazing when you stop and think about it

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I'm not surprised though because the

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the tourism side of England hasn't quite reached the

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the B sides would be the harsh way of saying it

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but there's some great B sides out there

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and whereas in Scotland it has

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and you can see that in the price points of

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the likes of Dunbar being over 200 quid

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and even though it's worth every penny

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it's the fact that before it was 100

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so Dunbar had 4,500 uh

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uh visitors one year and

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and someone recommended to them

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it's like the whole club got together

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like everyone's getting 9,000 rounds from visitors

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we need more rounds cause we wanna do all these uh

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renovations and blah blah blah and they're like

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we need to lower the price lower the price the Scottish

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classic Scottish sentiment

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let's lower the price more people will come there

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was an American who came in and said

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why don't you double the price

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just double it to 200 see what happens

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I promise you just try it for a year

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so they tried it for a year

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next year they had 9,000 visitors

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I don't think there's that perception like

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especially stateside

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is like quality is inherently linked to price

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and I think that's one thing that we see in England

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is that there's you know

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value is what you get and price is what you pay

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um

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but there is still very good value golf to be had um

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even at the the upper echelons

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I mean 10 English golf courses go into the world uh

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40 English golf courses go into GBI

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and even within there

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you can play those courses for some of them around 100

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£100 during peak season

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so less when you get into shoulder season

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and then even less when you get into winter

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and the good thing about most of those courses

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virtually all of them is they're all free draining

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they're either really good heathlands or links courses

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so even if you look at that you think

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well hundred and fifty five for the Addington

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that's a bit pricey

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for July or August golf for hundred fifty five quid

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um you can play one of the best heathlands in London

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I mean it's on a unique site being mostly gravel

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but it drains really

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really well and the turf quality's improved

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immensely over the last few years with an investment

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so it's one of those ones where yeah

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the smart money is probably on courses like that

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because in a few years time

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I think you'll see Addington

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probably double its green fee

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I don't know what Ryan's got planned but um

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where it's going in the

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the company it'll keep that wouldn't

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wouldn't necessarily be out of

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you know the the realms of reasonableness where uh

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where in that ranking would you say is the best value

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I mean you get down it is it's an interesting one

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I'm sure we'll get into this but um

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especially with some of the stats that uh

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Simon's got prepared but I mean you

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you can play a lot of golf under 100 pounds

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there's probably 10 courses um

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that are they're in and around there look

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you have to travel perhaps to some areas of

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of the country that you wouldn't necessarily go to um

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or a little bit more difficult to get to so um

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Perranporth is one that sits uh

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stands out that's down in Cornwall

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Seaton Carew um so in the North East um

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Kingston is is one that's an absolute bargain uh

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39 quid peak season

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I mean and Kingston's a wonderful golf course

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but then you've even got like Purbeck sea scale

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uh Cavendish

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Cleeve Hill Yelverton

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Appleby dunstable

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I mean it

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and a lot of those you can like less than fifty pounds

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so there's still amazing value to be had

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and then there's some on the contenders

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list that we haven't even touched yet yeah

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I'd add a couple um

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Jasper which would be

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you know right at the

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right in the around the

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the top 50 you've got Bodysher at 1:20 um

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you know you've got Gosick 100

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I mean Gosick's wonderful

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it's so good um

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you know and you know

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for anybody visit visiting East Low

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East Lowton you can tack it on in a heartbeat

260
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just by driving down the A1

261
00:10:09,066 --> 00:10:11,966
it's 45 minutes from me still in and they've just

262
00:10:11,966 --> 00:10:13,366
I know that uh

263
00:10:13,566 --> 00:10:15,466
I think it was Tom Mackenzie that did it

264
00:10:15,533 --> 00:10:17,100
but they've just got rid of their worst hole

265
00:10:17,100 --> 00:10:18,133
and actually dropped uh

266
00:10:18,133 --> 00:10:20,000
dropped in quite a cool little par 3

267
00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:22,100
in terms of quality level across the board

268
00:10:22,100 --> 00:10:24,733
it's now unbelievable the knock on effects of

269
00:10:24,733 --> 00:10:26,466
of them doing that um

270
00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:28,366
solves a few safety issues

271
00:10:28,366 --> 00:10:30,100
and congestion issues around the clubhouse

272
00:10:30,100 --> 00:10:32,566
as well so you'll see um

273
00:10:32,933 --> 00:10:35,800
changes and improvements in routing for other holes

274
00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:37,400
that stem off that

275
00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:38,500
which is you know

276
00:10:38,500 --> 00:10:42,000
that despite the fact it's in an enormous June scape

277
00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:44,100
along a wonderful June ridge

278
00:10:44,366 --> 00:10:45,933
you know it's actually quite constrained

279
00:10:45,933 --> 00:10:47,300
in terms of its property

280
00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:49,700
and it's a very clever way of doing it

281
00:10:49,700 --> 00:10:53,000
I tell you what in terms of unbuilt golf courses

282
00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:55,300
the area around Goswick is next level

283
00:10:55,300 --> 00:10:56,200
I love that game

284
00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:57,500
when you're driving down the road and just

285
00:10:57,500 --> 00:10:59,733
get lost into lost the sauce oh

286
00:10:59,733 --> 00:11:01,766
that ground looks good that looks that looks amazing

287
00:11:01,766 --> 00:11:04,966
so in terms of big picture just to start off with

288
00:11:04,966 --> 00:11:06,866
I know that you're both involved in Scotland

289
00:11:06,866 --> 00:11:08,966
rankings as well and um

290
00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:11,800
the is England harder to rank than Scotland

291
00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:15,433
I think it's got incredible depth um

292
00:11:16,100 --> 00:11:17,800
obviously it you know in terms of a you know

293
00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:20,866
there's a quantum of golf courses in terms of numbers

294
00:11:20,866 --> 00:11:23,366
that is is is is much higher um

295
00:11:23,500 --> 00:11:25,300
but you know if you go back you know

296
00:11:25,300 --> 00:11:28,000
people will know I'm I'm fairly historical in my view

297
00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:31,266
although I love modern golf too and modern design too

298
00:11:31,266 --> 00:11:33,600
um I you know

299
00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:35,366
you look into sort of Michael Morrison's book

300
00:11:35,366 --> 00:11:36,866
or you look in Stephen Proctor's book

301
00:11:36,866 --> 00:11:37,766
The Long Golden Afternoon

302
00:11:37,766 --> 00:11:40,266
and you can see the explosion of the game um

303
00:11:40,766 --> 00:11:43,166
you know really post uh

304
00:11:43,166 --> 00:11:45,666
Westward Ho and and onwards you know

305
00:11:45,666 --> 00:11:48,500
it's our biggest panel we have you know panelists

306
00:11:48,533 --> 00:11:48,933
you know

307
00:11:48,933 --> 00:11:51,366
that are built up from the bottom up from regional

308
00:11:51,666 --> 00:11:53,700
as well as from the top down from global

309
00:11:53,700 --> 00:11:56,166
and I know you've discussed that on the pod previously

310
00:11:56,166 --> 00:11:57,166
in terms of

311
00:11:57,166 --> 00:12:00,866
getting input from people who have a global perception

312
00:12:01,466 --> 00:12:03,100
and people have a local perception

313
00:12:03,100 --> 00:12:06,066
and I think the meeting of bottom up and top down is

314
00:12:06,100 --> 00:12:07,466
fairly unique for one of the

315
00:12:07,466 --> 00:12:09,133
the ranking structures

316
00:12:09,133 --> 00:12:12,133
so that's to its benefit as well but yeah

317
00:12:12,133 --> 00:12:14,733
as Jasper said that the quality of golf

318
00:12:14,733 --> 00:12:18,600
the quality of landforms the variety of landforms

319
00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:20,500
the variety of of architects

320
00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:21,900
um you know

321
00:12:21,900 --> 00:12:23,566
really England um

322
00:12:23,700 --> 00:12:27,533
stands head and shoulders above many areas in in

323
00:12:27,533 --> 00:12:27,733
in in

324
00:12:27,733 --> 00:12:28,500
in on the globe

325
00:12:28,500 --> 00:12:31,466
it's been less marketed it's been

326
00:12:31,466 --> 00:12:32,733
you know you got the the

327
00:12:32,733 --> 00:12:33,933
the England's golf coast

328
00:12:33,933 --> 00:12:35,566
and that's a nice little sort of

329
00:12:35,566 --> 00:12:36,333
you know for

330
00:12:36,333 --> 00:12:37,533
for travelers there's some

331
00:12:37,533 --> 00:12:39,866
some some branding and some um

332
00:12:40,100 --> 00:12:42,033
local tourist money um

333
00:12:42,166 --> 00:12:43,566
tourism board money going in there

334
00:12:43,566 --> 00:12:45,933
but really on a national level

335
00:12:45,933 --> 00:12:47,366
that's been very disorganized

336
00:12:47,366 --> 00:12:49,833
it's been very much for the clubs to market themselves

337
00:12:49,866 --> 00:12:50,900
um uh

338
00:12:50,900 --> 00:12:54,066
or get together with two or three of their local peers

339
00:12:54,100 --> 00:12:55,600
um and neighbours

340
00:12:55,866 --> 00:12:57,266
um and uh

341
00:12:57,266 --> 00:12:58,366
so to that extent you know

342
00:12:58,366 --> 00:13:00,400
there is astonishing value um

343
00:13:00,866 --> 00:13:02,966
in England prices have gone up

344
00:13:02,966 --> 00:13:03,800
I mean you know

345
00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:06,600
demand drives prices post covid and everything else

346
00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:08,633
and obviously we've had massive

347
00:13:08,866 --> 00:13:11,566
top down inflation that we discussed at the beginning

348
00:13:12,266 --> 00:13:13,166
so you know

349
00:13:13,166 --> 00:13:14,400
there is there is

350
00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:15,800
there has been some some

351
00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:18,566
some expectation levels on price

352
00:13:18,566 --> 00:13:20,900
and expectations on what needs to be delivered

353
00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:21,800
and I think you know

354
00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:24,800
clubs have to be careful not to spend and therefore

355
00:13:25,066 --> 00:13:28,200
create long term maintenance and overhead cost

356
00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:30,400
but nevertheless um

357
00:13:30,466 --> 00:13:31,466
there's some wonderful

358
00:13:31,466 --> 00:13:33,966
wonderful examples of some good work

359
00:13:33,966 --> 00:13:35,766
you mentioned a statistics

360
00:13:35,766 --> 00:13:37,133
I might be good at good good

361
00:13:37,133 --> 00:13:38,133
good opportunity to raise it

362
00:13:38,133 --> 00:13:40,533
cause obviously we're teasing the uh

363
00:13:40,533 --> 00:13:42,333
the new rankings which I'm proud to be

364
00:13:42,333 --> 00:13:45,366
be be lead on which is really just a um

365
00:13:45,566 --> 00:13:49,000
you know sort of over a overseeing role and and

366
00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:51,500
and nothing nothing too taxing um

367
00:13:52,100 --> 00:13:53,600
um because we got great

368
00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:56,800
great rankers and and panelists um

369
00:13:56,900 --> 00:14:01,866
but if we look at a break of £150 on green fees

370
00:14:02,866 --> 00:14:06,566
um the courses that are above £150

371
00:14:07,133 --> 00:14:10,666
actually come down the list on an average by

372
00:14:10,700 --> 00:14:13,600
about two and a half two and a quarter um

373
00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:17,566
but interestingly the courses under 150 pounds

374
00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:21,100
climb the list by about six and three quarters

375
00:14:21,700 --> 00:14:24,000
ranking places I think that's fascinating

376
00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:26,366
so what that I think is is driven by

377
00:14:26,366 --> 00:14:29,333
and I guess I'd let you guys think about why yeah

378
00:14:29,333 --> 00:14:30,866
actually I'll throw the question back at you

379
00:14:30,866 --> 00:14:32,933
why do you think that why do you think that's occurring

380
00:14:32,933 --> 00:14:35,166
but I think I do think it is something that's notable

381
00:14:35,166 --> 00:14:36,900
so I've I've thought about this as well

382
00:14:36,900 --> 00:14:38,366
I I didn't have the stats

383
00:14:38,366 --> 00:14:39,566
but I guess when you

384
00:14:39,566 --> 00:14:41,166
when you look at the rankings and you

385
00:14:41,166 --> 00:14:43,300
you kind of piece through it um

386
00:14:44,066 --> 00:14:46,366
and I and having spent a lot of time uh

387
00:14:46,366 --> 00:14:49,100
with the the England panel um

388
00:14:49,666 --> 00:14:51,966
maybe we'll get on to to why I've had a

389
00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:55,500
maybe a disproportionate amount of time spent here

390
00:14:55,500 --> 00:14:57,566
not necessarily in making the final rankings

391
00:14:57,566 --> 00:14:58,733
so you kind of get that feeling

392
00:14:58,733 --> 00:14:59,800
as you look at the courses

393
00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:01,266
and naturally they

394
00:15:01,266 --> 00:15:03,633
they almost settle into different tiers

395
00:15:04,066 --> 00:15:05,733
so you get like the

396
00:15:05,733 --> 00:15:07,866
the World Hundred tier and then

397
00:15:07,933 --> 00:15:08,966
there's a little bit of overlap

398
00:15:08,966 --> 00:15:10,300
of maybe two or three courses

399
00:15:10,300 --> 00:15:11,466
at each tier where you think well

400
00:15:11,466 --> 00:15:13,700
those could jump up or you could swap those out

401
00:15:13,766 --> 00:15:16,533
but within relatively 10 15

402
00:15:16,533 --> 00:15:19,533
20 courses you kind of start to see them

403
00:15:19,533 --> 00:15:21,366
them step down um

404
00:15:21,366 --> 00:15:23,900
but that's definitely to a less extent uh

405
00:15:23,900 --> 00:15:24,933
when it comes to

406
00:15:24,933 --> 00:15:29,133
to England and I think part of the reason why we

407
00:15:29,133 --> 00:15:31,366
we've seen this a

408
00:15:31,366 --> 00:15:35,100
a lot of the big private clubs that are perhaps newer

409
00:15:35,100 --> 00:15:36,100
quote unquote

410
00:15:36,300 --> 00:15:38,333
cause there hasn't been a lot of really recent

411
00:15:38,333 --> 00:15:39,200
new builds I mean

412
00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:39,666
the rankings

413
00:15:39,666 --> 00:15:41,933
are a reflection of the consensus of the panel

414
00:15:41,933 --> 00:15:43,533
and I think perhaps in the past

415
00:15:43,533 --> 00:15:46,766
because something was new and unique uh

416
00:15:46,900 --> 00:15:50,066
or it was a bit of a novelty in England

417
00:15:50,366 --> 00:15:52,700
and I'll use a couple of examples like uh

418
00:15:52,700 --> 00:15:55,300
JCB or the Whisley uh

419
00:15:55,300 --> 00:15:57,900
or even Bearwood Lakes like when those came out

420
00:15:57,933 --> 00:16:00,900
it was kind of the first time that you seen big

421
00:16:00,900 --> 00:16:03,900
bold brush you know really green

422
00:16:03,900 --> 00:16:05,933
really white really blue you know

423
00:16:05,933 --> 00:16:07,100
all of those color palettes

424
00:16:07,100 --> 00:16:09,066
like popping the gustification

425
00:16:09,066 --> 00:16:13,133
if you will of golf and I think in the last 20 years

426
00:16:13,133 --> 00:16:14,733
probably a lot of people were very much impressed

427
00:16:14,733 --> 00:16:16,700
with those types of things um

428
00:16:16,700 --> 00:16:19,600
because it was something that maybe wasn't normal or

429
00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:22,466
or common in England and maybe because of that they

430
00:16:22,466 --> 00:16:25,000
they had a bit of an inflated um

431
00:16:25,333 --> 00:16:27,833
view and I think as we've moved forward

432
00:16:27,933 --> 00:16:28,833
you know as

433
00:16:29,066 --> 00:16:30,933
as people have become better traveled

434
00:16:30,933 --> 00:16:32,200
and they've seen more things

435
00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:33,466
and they've played in the States

436
00:16:33,466 --> 00:16:34,666
and they've played abroad

437
00:16:35,066 --> 00:16:36,566
um they

438
00:16:36,566 --> 00:16:39,566
they get to see things like Parkland at a really

439
00:16:39,566 --> 00:16:41,800
really high level and then when you come back home

440
00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:42,266
you're like well

441
00:16:42,266 --> 00:16:45,633
that's good but now I can see how good Parkland can be

442
00:16:46,133 --> 00:16:48,233
and so maybe that suggested things

443
00:16:48,466 --> 00:16:49,566
and as well

444
00:16:50,466 --> 00:16:52,233
I think coming back to it we've

445
00:16:52,733 --> 00:16:54,366
you know you always have this question how

446
00:16:54,366 --> 00:16:57,466
how do you possibly rank a links course

447
00:16:57,466 --> 00:16:58,500
against a heathland course

448
00:16:58,500 --> 00:16:59,533
against a Parkland course

449
00:16:59,533 --> 00:17:01,066
against a chalk downland course

450
00:17:01,066 --> 00:17:02,500
against a cliff top course

451
00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:05,700
and you just have to go back to the ranking criteria

452
00:17:05,700 --> 00:17:06,666
and you say well

453
00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:08,200
what are the things that we rank

454
00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:10,366
well it's not that we prefer links

455
00:17:10,366 --> 00:17:11,766
or heathland over Parkland

456
00:17:11,766 --> 00:17:14,200
or cliff top it's the fact that what we say is

457
00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:15,666
the running game is really important

458
00:17:15,666 --> 00:17:16,300
and inherently

459
00:17:16,300 --> 00:17:18,766
you get that on courses that have finer grasses

460
00:17:18,766 --> 00:17:19,866
that are less sticky

461
00:17:20,466 --> 00:17:22,866
that have sandy uh

462
00:17:23,100 --> 00:17:25,000
soils that are free draining

463
00:17:25,466 --> 00:17:28,900
um where turf conditions allow the ball to run

464
00:17:29,133 --> 00:17:32,066
and those contours um

465
00:17:32,066 --> 00:17:35,033
where the once the ball hits the ground

466
00:17:35,133 --> 00:17:36,333
that it's on the ground

467
00:17:36,333 --> 00:17:39,400
rolling as much as it was in the air um

468
00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:41,466
as opposed to just hitting and sticking

469
00:17:42,166 --> 00:17:43,800
and so when you go back to that

470
00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:45,400
now you have a set of criteria

471
00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:47,400
that you can use to evaluate golf courses

472
00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:51,333
that you you can say OK

473
00:17:51,333 --> 00:17:53,100
is this course better than that course

474
00:17:53,166 --> 00:17:54,466
and if you use those criteria

475
00:17:54,466 --> 00:17:55,600
you can say yes

476
00:17:55,700 --> 00:17:59,166
so I think telling the panel again and again and again

477
00:17:59,166 --> 00:18:00,666
OK good

478
00:18:00,666 --> 00:18:03,100
but what we need to do is not look at the flash

479
00:18:03,100 --> 00:18:04,533
and whether they have a big drop

480
00:18:04,533 --> 00:18:06,666
and they've got really nice locker rooms

481
00:18:06,733 --> 00:18:08,166
let's get back to playing conditions

482
00:18:08,166 --> 00:18:11,100
and just judge things on calibre of golf

483
00:18:11,566 --> 00:18:13,766
I think that's why uh

484
00:18:13,900 --> 00:18:15,300
maybe two reasons that

485
00:18:15,300 --> 00:18:17,700
that I've seen some courses slip that were

486
00:18:17,700 --> 00:18:20,900
perhaps were a lot higher uh

487
00:18:20,900 --> 00:18:24,900
but have fallen simply due to maybe those most things

488
00:18:24,900 --> 00:18:25,266
I think

489
00:18:25,266 --> 00:18:28,300
there's definitely a premium of the shock of the new

490
00:18:28,300 --> 00:18:29,666
and um

491
00:18:30,066 --> 00:18:31,366
that happens and you know

492
00:18:31,366 --> 00:18:33,366
I've been involved in panels before back in

493
00:18:33,366 --> 00:18:36,700
you know back in the 90s and remember courses

494
00:18:36,700 --> 00:18:39,800
you know like East Sussex National coming in and um

495
00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:43,300
you know the forest of Arden and places that really

496
00:18:43,300 --> 00:18:44,100
you know have

497
00:18:44,100 --> 00:18:44,600
have have

498
00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:46,500
have moved away from the zeitgeist

499
00:18:46,500 --> 00:18:47,700
um in and

500
00:18:47,700 --> 00:18:48,733
and popularity

501
00:18:48,733 --> 00:18:51,500
and there is some architectural quality there and and

502
00:18:51,500 --> 00:18:52,866
and and don't get me wrong

503
00:18:52,866 --> 00:18:55,300
I'm certainly not anti anti modern courses

504
00:18:55,300 --> 00:18:57,366
there's some wonderful modern courses I've played

505
00:18:57,666 --> 00:18:59,466
in the last couple of years um

506
00:18:59,700 --> 00:19:00,900
globally but um

507
00:19:01,300 --> 00:19:03,533
I think yeah there is the shock of the new

508
00:19:03,533 --> 00:19:05,766
I think you you mentioned the running game

509
00:19:05,766 --> 00:19:09,233
Jasper is quite topical and we'll go on to it but um

510
00:19:09,933 --> 00:19:11,233
I think it's about options

511
00:19:11,266 --> 00:19:13,000
it's about strategic options

512
00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:14,666
and the running and releasing the running game

513
00:19:14,666 --> 00:19:18,000
so it's not the running game necessarily as a as a

514
00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:20,700
a premium above the aerial game

515
00:19:20,700 --> 00:19:22,533
it's the fact that you have those choices

516
00:19:22,533 --> 00:19:25,266
that you can follow the um

517
00:19:25,266 --> 00:19:26,500
status driven you know

518
00:19:26,500 --> 00:19:27,333
just you know

519
00:19:27,333 --> 00:19:28,566
bomb and gouge and go straight

520
00:19:28,566 --> 00:19:30,366
and that's the way you're gonna lower your score

521
00:19:30,566 --> 00:19:33,200
but most golfers aren't capable of playing that game

522
00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:34,833
which is I'm gonna move on to a

523
00:19:34,833 --> 00:19:37,800
unbelievable example that happened yesterday um

524
00:19:37,866 --> 00:19:41,033
which people may realize what I'm moving towards but um

525
00:19:41,166 --> 00:19:42,566
yeah I think uh

526
00:19:42,566 --> 00:19:44,900
there are having those options

527
00:19:44,900 --> 00:19:46,900
having the opportunity to play the ground game

528
00:19:46,933 --> 00:19:49,133
statistically just to wrap this up in terms of

529
00:19:49,133 --> 00:19:51,166
you know modern courses

530
00:19:51,166 --> 00:19:53,100
for courses that have been built in England

531
00:19:53,100 --> 00:19:55,833
in the last 50 years of which there are not many

532
00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:57,200
um

533
00:19:57,666 --> 00:20:01,300
there are not many um a Warren just sneaks in

534
00:20:04,100 --> 00:20:05,966
the Marcus is in and Woben

535
00:20:05,966 --> 00:20:08,566
Duchess and Dukes are 50 this year well

536
00:20:08,566 --> 00:20:10,000
the Dukes is 50 this year

537
00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:12,466
and Duchess is slightly afterwards um

538
00:20:12,733 --> 00:20:13,966
and for full disclosure

539
00:20:13,966 --> 00:20:15,766
I'm a member and therefore did not

540
00:20:15,900 --> 00:20:18,600
and therefore did not rank my my opinion

541
00:20:18,966 --> 00:20:22,066
so that's very important that people realize that

542
00:20:22,066 --> 00:20:24,900
we are very unbiased in that respect um

543
00:20:25,066 --> 00:20:27,066
but for courses under 50 years

544
00:20:27,533 --> 00:20:30,766
the net fall is quite dramatic in this list

545
00:20:31,266 --> 00:20:33,233
it doesn't mean that they're not good

546
00:20:33,300 --> 00:20:35,400
it doesn't mean that they're not good test of golf

547
00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:37,500
the test of a certain type of golf

548
00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:40,966
and that seems to have moved away

549
00:20:40,966 --> 00:20:43,733
and it's about the architectural

550
00:20:43,733 --> 00:20:46,100
or golf architecture literacy of our panel

551
00:20:46,100 --> 00:20:49,266
which is climbing and also our global um

552
00:20:49,266 --> 00:20:51,366
perspective is climbing so let me

553
00:20:51,366 --> 00:20:53,100
let me go back to the example that I'm

554
00:20:53,100 --> 00:20:54,466
itching to tell you about

555
00:20:55,866 --> 00:20:57,100
spent most of the morning

556
00:20:57,100 --> 00:21:01,033
talking most of the morning on the master's um website

557
00:21:01,866 --> 00:21:03,866
which is the most wonderful website

558
00:21:03,866 --> 00:21:06,966
you can watch every shot every shot from every player

559
00:21:07,500 --> 00:21:08,600
so yesterday

560
00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:12,700
we had a prime example of what we're talking about

561
00:21:12,700 --> 00:21:15,633
it with the 3 ball of Oldrich pocklita

562
00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:17,900
uh Rasmus Nergard Peterson

563
00:21:17,900 --> 00:21:19,533
who are two of the biggest bombers in

564
00:21:19,533 --> 00:21:23,700
in the game and 60 year old Jose Maria LA Thoma

565
00:21:24,266 --> 00:21:26,800
and I recommend people go back

566
00:21:26,900 --> 00:21:28,766
and go onto the master's website

567
00:21:28,766 --> 00:21:31,300
and watch every single shot of

568
00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:32,533
of Jose Maria

569
00:21:32,533 --> 00:21:37,200
navigating his way around a 7,600 yard golf course

570
00:21:37,533 --> 00:21:40,100
his longest drive I think was something around 2

571
00:21:40,100 --> 00:21:43,866
4 9 and he created he didn't he

572
00:21:43,866 --> 00:21:46,666
you know he didn't play every shot perfectly

573
00:21:46,733 --> 00:21:47,200
in fact

574
00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:50,100
I think he was at bottom on both accuracy and distance

575
00:21:50,100 --> 00:21:51,000
on stats

576
00:21:51,733 --> 00:21:53,666
but he navigated the space

577
00:21:53,666 --> 00:21:56,100
and he tacked his way around that golf course

578
00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:58,266
and utilized the ground game

579
00:21:58,266 --> 00:22:00,100
and his incredible short game

580
00:22:00,100 --> 00:22:04,333
which we know to create a score and he was

581
00:22:04,333 --> 00:22:06,233
he was 2 under on the 15th tee

582
00:22:06,966 --> 00:22:11,266
and 15 was the only mental error or he really made

583
00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:12,966
was he hit it into the water with his

584
00:22:12,966 --> 00:22:16,166
with his with his pitch having laid up um

585
00:22:16,300 --> 00:22:19,300
but he gave these guys an absolute lesson

586
00:22:19,300 --> 00:22:22,100
and it's a lesson that every golfer on the planet

587
00:22:22,100 --> 00:22:24,900
should take which is look at your golf course

588
00:22:24,900 --> 00:22:26,700
understand where the space is

589
00:22:26,700 --> 00:22:28,566
understand how to avoid the hazards

590
00:22:28,566 --> 00:22:32,166
play angles and your enjoyment will go up

591
00:22:32,166 --> 00:22:34,300
and your score will go down

592
00:22:34,500 --> 00:22:35,500
um now we don't

593
00:22:35,500 --> 00:22:37,766
we're not all blessed with the short game of Jose Maria

594
00:22:37,766 --> 00:22:39,366
Alathar but it wasn't

595
00:22:39,466 --> 00:22:41,100
it wasn't just about short game

596
00:22:41,100 --> 00:22:42,800
and that's the important lesson here

597
00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:45,566
is to understand how people play strategically

598
00:22:46,100 --> 00:22:48,366
raise that raise your own golfing IQ

599
00:22:48,733 --> 00:22:53,200
and Bobby Jones famously said it is incumbent on every

600
00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:55,266
and I'm paraphrasing I won't get the exact wording

601
00:22:55,266 --> 00:22:57,233
it's incumbent on every golfer

602
00:22:57,500 --> 00:22:59,700
to understand golf architecture

603
00:22:59,766 --> 00:23:01,866
at least for their own selfish enjoyment

604
00:23:01,866 --> 00:23:04,500
but more importantly for the good of the game

605
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:07,200
and that's what happened to Augusta

606
00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:08,733
because it was firm yesterday

607
00:23:08,733 --> 00:23:10,666
because you had this this

608
00:23:10,666 --> 00:23:12,100
this massive contradiction now

609
00:23:12,100 --> 00:23:15,166
now Ollie's not gonna win the Masters this year

610
00:23:15,766 --> 00:23:17,300
but he's won the argument

611
00:23:17,566 --> 00:23:18,766
and yeah I think that's

612
00:23:18,766 --> 00:23:20,566
that's the key um

613
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:21,933
he's a fantastic gentleman

614
00:23:21,933 --> 00:23:23,600
he's one of the nicest people

615
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:26,133
I'm privileged to have met in my former life

616
00:23:26,133 --> 00:23:28,166
at the PGA um

617
00:23:28,466 --> 00:23:30,900
just an absolute wonderful human being

618
00:23:30,966 --> 00:23:34,833
but the way he constructed that round was cerebral

619
00:23:34,966 --> 00:23:35,933
it was everything

620
00:23:35,933 --> 00:23:38,100
we should be celebrating as the options

621
00:23:38,266 --> 00:23:41,000
but just classic members golf

622
00:23:41,300 --> 00:23:41,966
we all know

623
00:23:41,966 --> 00:23:45,200
there's a guy in our club who hits 175 yards

624
00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:48,066
who frustrates you in match play every time

625
00:23:48,066 --> 00:23:51,066
and you prejudicially call him a nerdler

626
00:23:51,066 --> 00:23:53,266
because he just nerdles around the course

627
00:23:53,266 --> 00:23:54,066
and he doesn't bomb

628
00:23:54,066 --> 00:23:57,666
and gouge and impress with eight irons to par fives

629
00:23:58,266 --> 00:24:00,500
but he frustrates the hell out of the young guns

630
00:24:00,500 --> 00:24:04,800
every time and if I was Audrick Poglizer and Rasmus

631
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:05,766
Nergard Petersen

632
00:24:05,766 --> 00:24:08,366
who were beaten by 10 shots and three shots

633
00:24:08,366 --> 00:24:11,566
respectively I would ask for three hours with Ollie

634
00:24:11,566 --> 00:24:12,866
in the clubhouse afterwards

635
00:24:12,866 --> 00:24:15,066
to say how do I do that

636
00:24:15,266 --> 00:24:17,700
yeah then they would become world class

637
00:24:17,700 --> 00:24:22,200
world beaters having that brain with their talent

638
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:24,100
it's a really good transition actually

639
00:24:24,100 --> 00:24:26,400
because for quite a few years

640
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:27,100
Jasper and I

641
00:24:27,100 --> 00:24:30,966
and a number of people within our sphere have

642
00:24:30,966 --> 00:24:33,366
we've been talking about the fact

643
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:35,866
the Augusta effect has had a negative um

644
00:24:35,866 --> 00:24:38,900
impact on the quality of golf course architecture

645
00:24:39,066 --> 00:24:41,066
because it was all about just pristine

646
00:24:41,166 --> 00:24:43,266
and everyone's thinking it's not Augusta's fault

647
00:24:43,266 --> 00:24:44,766
it's everyone's just thinking about

648
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:46,833
really pristine golf courses

649
00:24:47,300 --> 00:24:50,166
now it still is pristine

650
00:24:50,566 --> 00:24:53,000
but the thing that we've been spouting about

651
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:54,200
being the best thing for golf

652
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:55,066
which is firm

653
00:24:55,066 --> 00:24:59,733
fast surfaces has now taken effect Augusta

654
00:24:59,733 --> 00:25:02,266
and I feel sorry for these guys who have built these

655
00:25:02,266 --> 00:25:02,933
golf courses

656
00:25:02,933 --> 00:25:05,366
spent huge amounts of money on greenkeeping for last

657
00:25:05,366 --> 00:25:06,500
god knows last

658
00:25:06,500 --> 00:25:08,066
in the last 50 years

659
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:11,500
trying to make these spinny kind of soft golf courses

660
00:25:11,966 --> 00:25:13,666
and Augusta's just gone well

661
00:25:13,666 --> 00:25:14,666
if you're trying to copy us

662
00:25:14,666 --> 00:25:15,900
we're doing it that way

663
00:25:15,900 --> 00:25:18,133
which is the way that our rankings is rating it

664
00:25:18,133 --> 00:25:19,066
which is quite cool

665
00:25:19,066 --> 00:25:22,233
it must be quite inspiring for people like us who are

666
00:25:22,466 --> 00:25:23,966
yeah we're nobody to Augusta

667
00:25:23,966 --> 00:25:26,166
but the thing is they're

668
00:25:27,133 --> 00:25:28,400
they're moving the right direction

669
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:29,933
for what we think makes better golf

670
00:25:29,933 --> 00:25:30,933
yes I think that's true

671
00:25:30,933 --> 00:25:31,733
but I mean

672
00:25:32,466 --> 00:25:33,500
this does tie in actually

673
00:25:33,500 --> 00:25:35,400
to what we were saying about the modern courses

674
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:37,466
maybe slipping down a little

675
00:25:37,700 --> 00:25:42,566
is Augusta has the money it has the capability and and

676
00:25:42,566 --> 00:25:42,766
and

677
00:25:42,766 --> 00:25:44,866
and Chairman Ridley said this in his press conference

678
00:25:44,866 --> 00:25:47,000
you know they will do whatever they need to do

679
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,866
to deal with the distance of the ball and

680
00:25:49,866 --> 00:25:51,600
and he was very pro robot rollback

681
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,433
and that was key clear in his

682
00:25:54,466 --> 00:25:55,766
in his press conference

683
00:25:56,233 --> 00:25:58,000
but they do understand their place in the game

684
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:00,733
and that comes from the spirit of Bobby Jones

685
00:26:00,733 --> 00:26:04,233
and it comes from the spirit of Clifford Roberts and um

686
00:26:04,533 --> 00:26:05,000
and and

687
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:05,933
you know he has some

688
00:26:05,933 --> 00:26:07,700
some edges to his his personality

689
00:26:07,700 --> 00:26:09,100
which we all know in in the history

690
00:26:09,100 --> 00:26:10,400
and that's fine

691
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:13,800
but he was an incredibly detailed individual

692
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,300
and was very precious about what

693
00:26:16,300 --> 00:26:18,700
you know representing Bobby Jones legacy

694
00:26:19,066 --> 00:26:21,300
um and I think um

695
00:26:21,500 --> 00:26:24,033
that that's instructive

696
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:26,466
but it's very hard as Jasper said

697
00:26:26,466 --> 00:26:30,266
for a modern course to have the capability

698
00:26:30,266 --> 00:26:32,200
producing the agronomic conditions

699
00:26:32,300 --> 00:26:34,166
that can be firm and fast

700
00:26:34,266 --> 00:26:37,400
on a clay site um

701
00:26:37,466 --> 00:26:40,300
actually I was watching this isn't gonna digress again

702
00:26:40,300 --> 00:26:41,400
but um

703
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:43,433
which is my wont um

704
00:26:44,366 --> 00:26:48,533
but I was actually watching a geology uh feed

705
00:26:48,533 --> 00:26:50,066
I think it was on Instagram

706
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:53,266
that was talking about the specific clay

707
00:26:53,266 --> 00:26:56,500
that Augusta sits on and it's known as the Fall Line

708
00:26:56,500 --> 00:26:57,066
which is interesting

709
00:26:57,066 --> 00:26:59,533
because there's a OCM course being built at the moment

710
00:26:59,533 --> 00:27:01,166
called the Fall Line

711
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,500
and it's a Geo geological feature in that area

712
00:27:05,166 --> 00:27:07,233
and actually although it's clay

713
00:27:07,266 --> 00:27:09,866
it's relatively free draining clay

714
00:27:09,866 --> 00:27:11,866
it's not really really sticky

715
00:27:11,966 --> 00:27:14,000
which is interesting because it

716
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:14,533
you know

717
00:27:14,533 --> 00:27:18,533
and these are the detailed nerdy nuances that people um

718
00:27:18,533 --> 00:27:20,233
dig into um

719
00:27:20,266 --> 00:27:23,400
so us Augusta did have certain issues and uh

720
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:25,333
with drainage especially around the 12th green

721
00:27:25,333 --> 00:27:29,200
which is a legendary for being extremely boggy

722
00:27:29,733 --> 00:27:31,066
um in fact

723
00:27:31,066 --> 00:27:32,666
they really struggled to get construction

724
00:27:32,666 --> 00:27:34,566
machinery on it back in 1930

725
00:27:34,766 --> 00:27:38,666
but the spirit of Saint Andrews comes through

726
00:27:38,666 --> 00:27:40,700
the spirit of Mackenzie comes through

727
00:27:40,700 --> 00:27:43,633
and the spirit of Jones comes through in terms of how

728
00:27:43,666 --> 00:27:45,766
they wanted that course to play

729
00:27:45,766 --> 00:27:48,666
and the club are returning to that spirit

730
00:27:48,666 --> 00:27:50,566
having moved away from it for

731
00:27:50,566 --> 00:27:52,466
for several years um

732
00:27:52,866 --> 00:27:54,533
and that's a blessing

733
00:27:54,533 --> 00:27:58,400
because for our courses in England

734
00:27:58,400 --> 00:27:59,833
GBI and Ireland

735
00:28:00,466 --> 00:28:02,733
that's actually a more beneficial

736
00:28:02,733 --> 00:28:04,200
environmentally way

737
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,466
and resource allocation way of running a golf course

738
00:28:07,566 --> 00:28:10,933
and providing playing conditions that are fun um

739
00:28:10,933 --> 00:28:14,533
and providing those options that that smart golfers

740
00:28:14,533 --> 00:28:17,400
intelligent golfers can use even just on that point

741
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:19,166
I mean I was watching the Masters last night

742
00:28:19,166 --> 00:28:22,666
when I came in after playing at denim

743
00:28:22,666 --> 00:28:25,566
which is I mean legendary lunch

744
00:28:25,566 --> 00:28:28,300
but the course is they've

745
00:28:28,466 --> 00:28:29,700
or we can get on to that cause we

746
00:28:29,700 --> 00:28:33,500
it just sneaks in into the England hundred but um

747
00:28:33,866 --> 00:28:34,600
there's flowers

748
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:36,966
a couple drone flowers of the golf course at Augusta

749
00:28:36,966 --> 00:28:38,800
and even on the a couple of the

750
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:40,000
the edges of the green sites

751
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:41,900
there was a little bit of brown showing

752
00:28:42,066 --> 00:28:43,666
and I just thought like that was

753
00:28:43,666 --> 00:28:44,166
that's something

754
00:28:44,166 --> 00:28:46,966
you just would not have seen a couple of years ago uh

755
00:28:46,966 --> 00:28:49,000
and if it was there they probably would have taken

756
00:28:49,066 --> 00:28:51,266
like some sort of measure to make sure that it

757
00:28:51,266 --> 00:28:53,766
it wouldn't have looked like that um

758
00:28:53,933 --> 00:28:55,300
so imagine all these years

759
00:28:55,300 --> 00:28:56,066
where you have members

760
00:28:56,066 --> 00:28:58,266
walk into the secretary's office or

761
00:28:58,266 --> 00:29:00,866
or stop a green keeper and say look

762
00:29:00,866 --> 00:29:01,266
um

763
00:29:01,266 --> 00:29:04,800
why can't we be more like that and referring to Augusta

764
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:06,700
um it's those little things

765
00:29:06,700 --> 00:29:08,000
that might just take the pressure off

766
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:10,533
which I think is good and when you look at our rankings

767
00:29:10,533 --> 00:29:12,166
I think we're celebrating courses

768
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:14,066
that are not necessarily long

769
00:29:14,066 --> 00:29:15,500
championship courses

770
00:29:15,766 --> 00:29:20,433
there's as much to be said now for fun interesting

771
00:29:20,933 --> 00:29:22,366
um unique

772
00:29:22,700 --> 00:29:26,600
dare we say quirky I think in Scotland um

773
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:26,933
you know

774
00:29:26,933 --> 00:29:29,066
you've had the Cruden Bays and the North Berricks

775
00:29:29,066 --> 00:29:30,033
that have

776
00:29:30,733 --> 00:29:32,933
for a lot of people that's become mainstream

777
00:29:32,933 --> 00:29:34,766
in England it still hasn't

778
00:29:35,366 --> 00:29:36,933
um necessarily caught on

779
00:29:36,933 --> 00:29:38,766
and I think that's one thing where we've

780
00:29:38,900 --> 00:29:40,900
we've been able to because the tapestry of

781
00:29:40,900 --> 00:29:41,700
of English golf

782
00:29:41,700 --> 00:29:45,466
especially with Commonland Golf or Hilltop Golf are

783
00:29:45,500 --> 00:29:46,366
you know going to

784
00:29:46,366 --> 00:29:49,100
to what a lot of braid did on sites that were

785
00:29:49,333 --> 00:29:50,600
dare we say unconventional

786
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:51,166
compared to

787
00:29:51,166 --> 00:29:53,933
maybe what the rest of the Golden Age architects were

788
00:29:53,933 --> 00:29:55,300
were dealt with you know

789
00:29:55,300 --> 00:29:58,733
Simpson and Simpson and Colt kind of stayed around

790
00:29:58,733 --> 00:30:00,666
you know nice relatively

791
00:30:01,166 --> 00:30:03,100
no flat I guess you could say in compare

792
00:30:03,100 --> 00:30:05,200
comparatively speaking to some of the uh

793
00:30:05,333 --> 00:30:08,233
the really big courses that the braid had to work with

794
00:30:08,500 --> 00:30:10,066
um and braids

795
00:30:10,066 --> 00:30:10,466
genius

796
00:30:10,466 --> 00:30:12,466
got them around and created some really cool routings

797
00:30:12,466 --> 00:30:13,266
but

798
00:30:13,766 --> 00:30:15,166
the fact that you can play good golf

799
00:30:15,166 --> 00:30:16,400
on all those different sites

800
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:16,566
and

801
00:30:16,566 --> 00:30:19,100
just because they are a little bit more taxing to walk

802
00:30:19,100 --> 00:30:19,900
um

803
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:22,566
yeah it doesn't necessarily mean that they're

804
00:30:22,566 --> 00:30:24,166
they're they're any less of a golf course

805
00:30:24,166 --> 00:30:25,566
so I'm just kind of looking through the list

806
00:30:25,566 --> 00:30:28,133
I mean I think the last one that came in

807
00:30:28,133 --> 00:30:30,366
I don't know if it was the last list or the one before

808
00:30:30,366 --> 00:30:31,900
was Cleveland

809
00:30:31,900 --> 00:30:34,166
and that's kind of become one of those like uh

810
00:30:34,533 --> 00:30:36,266
kind of cool cult following

811
00:30:36,266 --> 00:30:39,866
hipster hangout type things in the golf world yep um

812
00:30:40,566 --> 00:30:42,866
but I think that's kind of been the gateway

813
00:30:42,866 --> 00:30:44,600
for a lot of people to say

814
00:30:44,933 --> 00:30:49,133
oh actually this is really kind of cool thing in golf

815
00:30:49,133 --> 00:30:51,700
and if I like Cleveland then you know

816
00:30:51,700 --> 00:30:53,866
although mention Hampton Old doesn't make our

817
00:30:53,866 --> 00:30:57,633
our list or Painswick doesn't make our list um

818
00:30:58,866 --> 00:31:01,833
that there's a lot of golf kind of in those corridors

819
00:31:02,266 --> 00:31:03,800
that is well worth looking for

820
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:07,300
and I wouldn't be surprised in the future if uh

821
00:31:07,300 --> 00:31:08,833
we see more of those courses

822
00:31:08,866 --> 00:31:09,666
the other one to mention

823
00:31:09,666 --> 00:31:11,800
it's kind of cut from that cloth is Yelverton

824
00:31:12,066 --> 00:31:14,566
which uh entered the list and kind of moves up

825
00:31:14,566 --> 00:31:17,766
but Yelverton's a brilliant golf course um

826
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:19,800
and it is definitely ragged around the edges

827
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:22,166
but just like Royal North Devon

828
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:24,966
you have a few of these perceived outliers

829
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:27,733
but I think they're becoming more mainstream and that's

830
00:31:27,733 --> 00:31:30,866
that's been reflected in the in the ranking yeah

831
00:31:30,866 --> 00:31:33,066
I think one of the when you've mentioned it before

832
00:31:33,066 --> 00:31:35,766
one of the largest climbers is Kingston um

833
00:31:35,866 --> 00:31:36,700
which is you know

834
00:31:36,700 --> 00:31:39,166
the highest course in England and um

835
00:31:39,566 --> 00:31:40,266
you know it's

836
00:31:40,266 --> 00:31:40,466
it's it's

837
00:31:40,466 --> 00:31:41,366
it's CK

838
00:31:41,366 --> 00:31:44,066
Hutchinson who was brace prosthet at Gleneagles

839
00:31:44,066 --> 00:31:45,533
and it's bunkulous

840
00:31:45,533 --> 00:31:47,800
and it's quirky and it's got amazing views

841
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:49,266
but you know again

842
00:31:49,266 --> 00:31:50,966
it's all about turf um

843
00:31:50,966 --> 00:31:53,166
it's about turf and ground conditions and and

844
00:31:53,166 --> 00:31:54,733
and that's great and then

845
00:31:54,733 --> 00:31:55,300
you know you

846
00:31:55,300 --> 00:31:56,266
you you have a

847
00:31:56,566 --> 00:31:58,100
you know there's other movers

848
00:31:58,100 --> 00:31:59,100
you know as we've mentioned

849
00:31:59,100 --> 00:32:00,066
you know Gosick

850
00:32:00,066 --> 00:32:01,200
we've mentioned you know

851
00:32:01,700 --> 00:32:02,900
um Gorona

852
00:32:02,900 --> 00:32:05,100
Devon's moved up nicely Perranporth

853
00:32:05,100 --> 00:32:06,400
you know Seacroft

854
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:06,800
you know the

855
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:08,766
these these sorts of courses

856
00:32:08,766 --> 00:32:10,600
they have quirk they have interest

857
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:12,566
they have fun um

858
00:32:12,700 --> 00:32:15,333
and the beauty of of

859
00:32:15,333 --> 00:32:16,300
of rankings

860
00:32:16,300 --> 00:32:19,066
which are generally focused on for travellers

861
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:20,466
is

862
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:24,566
people aren't doing an enormous amount of repeat play

863
00:32:24,766 --> 00:32:26,033
on these courses

864
00:32:26,500 --> 00:32:29,766
and so the shock of the new in terms of quirk

865
00:32:29,766 --> 00:32:30,733
not the shock of the new

866
00:32:30,733 --> 00:32:32,133
as we were previously talking about

867
00:32:32,133 --> 00:32:33,066
but the you know

868
00:32:33,066 --> 00:32:35,766
the excitement and the variety of quirk

869
00:32:36,133 --> 00:32:38,400
it's something that makes your trips fun

870
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:40,833
it makes your discussions in the

871
00:32:40,866 --> 00:32:41,533
in the in the

872
00:32:41,533 --> 00:32:43,900
in the Airbnb afterwards um

873
00:32:44,066 --> 00:32:45,200
you know uh

874
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:47,133
a dynamic and interesting

875
00:32:47,133 --> 00:32:48,966
and someone will hate it and someone will love it

876
00:32:48,966 --> 00:32:51,133
and it just yeah

877
00:32:51,133 --> 00:32:52,266
it's a blast um

878
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:53,566
so yeah I mean

879
00:32:53,566 --> 00:32:55,300
if whenever you go away on tours

880
00:32:55,300 --> 00:32:57,866
play match play or some construction of match play and

881
00:32:57,866 --> 00:32:59,533
and play quirky courses and have fun

882
00:32:59,533 --> 00:33:01,800
this podcast is brought to you by Echo Shoes

883
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,300
particularly their new biome C5 David

884
00:33:04,300 --> 00:33:06,500
I know you have a wee bit of a fondness for an Echo

885
00:33:06,500 --> 00:33:07,166
yeah no

886
00:33:07,166 --> 00:33:07,566
no doubt

887
00:33:07,566 --> 00:33:09,866
I am literally a walking advertisement for Echo

888
00:33:09,866 --> 00:33:11,000
and I can honestly say

889
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:12,866
I played the world top hundred in my echoes

890
00:33:12,866 --> 00:33:14,200
I spent years running around

891
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:14,533
you know

892
00:33:14,533 --> 00:33:16,566
diving around tennis court and stuff like that for

893
00:33:16,566 --> 00:33:17,833
for a really long time

894
00:33:17,900 --> 00:33:20,000
and that takes a toll because it was hard courts

895
00:33:20,100 --> 00:33:21,533
and so hard courts there's a lot of

896
00:33:21,533 --> 00:33:24,733
you know things going on with your feet and and as I

897
00:33:24,733 --> 00:33:26,766
when I started to get a little bit older

898
00:33:26,766 --> 00:33:29,500
not even old you know like in in my 30s

899
00:33:29,500 --> 00:33:32,133
I had you know my feet were bothering me

900
00:33:32,133 --> 00:33:34,400
when I had to do long walks and stuff like that

901
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:37,066
I mean four and a/2 miles is the standard golf ride

902
00:33:37,166 --> 00:33:38,366
so four and a/2 miles right

903
00:33:38,366 --> 00:33:40,900
so four and a/2 miles of walking when your feet hurt

904
00:33:40,900 --> 00:33:42,366
it's the worst thing ever

905
00:33:42,366 --> 00:33:42,766
and like

906
00:33:42,766 --> 00:33:46,133
I had so many rounds where I would get done and

907
00:33:46,133 --> 00:33:48,966
you know when I first started playing golf and I just

908
00:33:48,966 --> 00:33:49,766
I couldn't take it like

909
00:33:49,766 --> 00:33:50,666
I had to get the shoes off

910
00:33:50,666 --> 00:33:53,100
and my feet were just throbbing and

911
00:33:53,100 --> 00:33:56,733
you know I I ran into Echo probably in you know 2007

912
00:33:56,733 --> 00:33:58,066
2008 2009

913
00:33:58,066 --> 00:33:58,933
whatever the year was

914
00:33:58,933 --> 00:34:01,200
it was before I started my journey really for the for

915
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:03,000
for playing the world top hundred yeah

916
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:05,700
as if you're doing the world's uh top 100

917
00:34:05,700 --> 00:34:06,666
you need to be

918
00:34:06,666 --> 00:34:08,466
able to trust where your clubs are going

919
00:34:08,500 --> 00:34:11,900
and never get sore feet exactly yeah

920
00:34:11,900 --> 00:34:13,333
the rest you can sort out along the way

921
00:34:13,333 --> 00:34:17,266
so just a couple of uh things about the Echo BMC5

922
00:34:17,266 --> 00:34:19,100
every detail's crafted for the perfect feel

923
00:34:19,100 --> 00:34:21,766
and I know David and his many adventures in golf

924
00:34:21,766 --> 00:34:23,466
have enjoyed echoes over the years

925
00:34:23,466 --> 00:34:23,766
but these have

926
00:34:23,766 --> 00:34:25,566
been designed to play and built for comfort

927
00:34:25,733 --> 00:34:26,333
so uh

928
00:34:26,333 --> 00:34:27,133
thank you very much Echo

929
00:34:27,133 --> 00:34:28,200
appreciate it a lot

930
00:34:28,366 --> 00:34:30,333
this episode is brought to you by the Lockhart

931
00:34:30,333 --> 00:34:33,833
Travel Club we believe golf is more than a game

932
00:34:33,933 --> 00:34:35,900
it's a journey a journey

933
00:34:35,900 --> 00:34:39,000
we've made across 34 of the world's top 100 courses

934
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:42,000
last year and now it's your turn

935
00:34:42,566 --> 00:34:43,566
we create

936
00:34:43,566 --> 00:34:46,366
bespoke travel experiences for passionate golfers

937
00:34:46,366 --> 00:34:48,166
who expect nothing but the best

938
00:34:48,166 --> 00:34:49,400
membership is limited

939
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:52,600
so join us at Locker Travel club.com

940
00:34:53,700 --> 00:34:54,933
there's something really interesting

941
00:34:54,933 --> 00:34:56,933
uh about England though

942
00:34:56,933 --> 00:34:59,266
for me as someone who travels

943
00:35:00,166 --> 00:35:00,666
well I

944
00:35:00,666 --> 00:35:02,966
I travel all over played a lot of different places

945
00:35:02,966 --> 00:35:03,166
but

946
00:35:03,166 --> 00:35:06,133
and I have grown up in Scotland and seen the Scotland

947
00:35:06,133 --> 00:35:08,066
um change right

948
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:09,533
the change in pricing

949
00:35:09,533 --> 00:35:12,366
change everything from a foreign investment

950
00:35:12,366 --> 00:35:15,200
foreign uh engagement in Scotland

951
00:35:15,500 --> 00:35:19,133
England is much more a microcosm of its own beast

952
00:35:19,133 --> 00:35:21,800
this is it the travelling golfer within England

953
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:22,900
tends to be English

954
00:35:22,966 --> 00:35:25,166
and it's got a large enough population

955
00:35:25,166 --> 00:35:26,266
and wealthy enough population

956
00:35:26,266 --> 00:35:28,133
to be able to engage with a lot of these clubs

957
00:35:28,133 --> 00:35:31,533
and be able to sustain a huge network of golf courses

958
00:35:31,533 --> 00:35:35,866
that are able to maintain quality golf course

959
00:35:35,866 --> 00:35:37,700
architecture quality golf courses

960
00:35:38,566 --> 00:35:40,466
does that mean that

961
00:35:40,766 --> 00:35:44,033
our change to a more international opinion

962
00:35:45,366 --> 00:35:46,366
Ha will have rocked

963
00:35:46,366 --> 00:35:48,333
will rock the boat a wee bit within England

964
00:35:48,333 --> 00:35:50,266
because there is this network of

965
00:35:50,766 --> 00:35:52,666
people that have their own opinion of

966
00:35:52,666 --> 00:35:54,400
this is what England should be

967
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:56,133
I think it it could do

968
00:35:56,133 --> 00:35:57,366
I think sometimes

969
00:35:57,366 --> 00:36:00,266
people are quite regional in the way that they travel

970
00:36:00,266 --> 00:36:01,866
as well um

971
00:36:02,166 --> 00:36:03,233
and

972
00:36:04,166 --> 00:36:06,300
I think the beauty of the site is

973
00:36:06,300 --> 00:36:09,400
encouraging people to go to more disparate places

974
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:11,733
and travel around your locality

975
00:36:11,733 --> 00:36:12,200
or you and

976
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:16,700
and different countries so I think what you find is

977
00:36:16,700 --> 00:36:18,066
and we spoke about it a little bit

978
00:36:18,066 --> 00:36:20,766
and not in some sort of ivory tower academic

979
00:36:20,766 --> 00:36:22,766
I'm surrounded by books apologies

980
00:36:22,766 --> 00:36:25,000
that's the way things are

981
00:36:25,966 --> 00:36:28,800
I'm just I'm just very passionate about architecture

982
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:30,733
not certainly not just James Brad

983
00:36:30,733 --> 00:36:33,633
but all golf architecture and

984
00:36:35,366 --> 00:36:36,800
it goes back to that Jones quote

985
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:37,566
which is you know

986
00:36:37,566 --> 00:36:39,533
people should be interested in golf course architecture

987
00:36:39,533 --> 00:36:41,500
just cause it makes their golf more fun

988
00:36:41,500 --> 00:36:42,200
and also

989
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:44,566
potentially improves their golf and their scores

990
00:36:44,566 --> 00:36:47,066
if that's something that people care about

991
00:36:47,066 --> 00:36:48,133
which quite rightly they do

992
00:36:48,133 --> 00:36:48,900
they want to be measured

993
00:36:48,900 --> 00:36:52,033
and people have an intrinsic desire to be measured

994
00:36:53,066 --> 00:36:57,900
and so getting people those people who travel more

995
00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:01,166
whether by studying it from books or

996
00:37:01,166 --> 00:37:01,766
or or

997
00:37:01,766 --> 00:37:05,366
or trying to raise their their golfing IQ that way

998
00:37:05,433 --> 00:37:09,133
but merely just by osmosis of seeing more disparate

999
00:37:09,133 --> 00:37:11,033
and variety of golf

1000
00:37:11,266 --> 00:37:14,500
get a better appreciation of what golf can be

1001
00:37:14,566 --> 00:37:17,866
and so that's what the site is about discovery

1002
00:37:18,300 --> 00:37:20,500
it's about discovering stuff that can

1003
00:37:20,500 --> 00:37:22,133
help you enjoy the game more

1004
00:37:22,133 --> 00:37:23,166
cause it's you know

1005
00:37:23,166 --> 00:37:25,100
this is a pastime you know I

1006
00:37:25,100 --> 00:37:27,366
you know I'm I'm happy to lead the panel

1007
00:37:27,366 --> 00:37:29,333
but I have a day job and you know

1008
00:37:29,333 --> 00:37:31,300
it's a passion that I do um

1009
00:37:32,300 --> 00:37:33,233
around the edges

1010
00:37:33,466 --> 00:37:37,700
because golf's a very important part to my life and um

1011
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:39,600
hopefully it is for those listening to the pod

1012
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:42,766
and others that join the game um

1013
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:44,300
but the beauty of

1014
00:37:44,300 --> 00:37:46,833
the type of golf that we're talking about

1015
00:37:47,066 --> 00:37:50,300
it's fun for people from beginner right the way through

1016
00:37:50,500 --> 00:37:52,100
um you know

1017
00:37:52,100 --> 00:37:54,666
once you get to the elite game

1018
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:56,966
the elite game is a very different game

1019
00:37:56,966 --> 00:37:58,566
and that's exactly what Freddy

1020
00:37:58,900 --> 00:38:01,533
Ridley was talking about in his press conference

1021
00:38:01,533 --> 00:38:03,966
and that's a different political issue

1022
00:38:03,966 --> 00:38:06,300
but I think what we're about

1023
00:38:06,300 --> 00:38:08,366
and what I hope our panelists are about

1024
00:38:08,366 --> 00:38:10,600
and what the system is about

1025
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:12,700
is inspiring people to

1026
00:38:12,866 --> 00:38:15,700
have a better appreciation of golf courses

1027
00:38:15,733 --> 00:38:17,600
and how much that can um

1028
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:20,866
impact positively on on their life and their

1029
00:38:20,866 --> 00:38:22,900
their well being so um

1030
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:23,933
that's yeah

1031
00:38:23,933 --> 00:38:26,633
that sounds a bit like a sermon but um

1032
00:38:27,066 --> 00:38:27,300
it's it's

1033
00:38:27,300 --> 00:38:28,733
it's a it's a genuine

1034
00:38:28,733 --> 00:38:30,000
it's a genuine uh

1035
00:38:30,500 --> 00:38:32,700
um wish of mine is to

1036
00:38:32,700 --> 00:38:34,933
to help raise the education of

1037
00:38:34,933 --> 00:38:38,633
of people to appreciate what this wonderful game can be

1038
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:39,800
I think uh

1039
00:38:39,966 --> 00:38:40,700
back in the day

1040
00:38:40,700 --> 00:38:42,966
I remember going to the website about 10 years ago

1041
00:38:42,966 --> 00:38:46,400
and I organized for 16 lads to go and play

1042
00:38:46,533 --> 00:38:48,000
together on a tour

1043
00:38:48,133 --> 00:38:49,933
and I just remember going to the website

1044
00:38:49,933 --> 00:38:51,100
looking up and I think it

1045
00:38:51,100 --> 00:38:53,100
was the best places to go with a group of boys

1046
00:38:53,100 --> 00:38:54,866
or whatever I don't know what the title was

1047
00:38:54,866 --> 00:38:59,033
but essentially said that to me at the time and uh

1048
00:38:59,466 --> 00:39:01,766
I think the out the recommended list

1049
00:39:01,766 --> 00:39:03,866
it was like Belfry Celtic

1050
00:39:03,866 --> 00:39:04,600
Manor you know

1051
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:05,900
10 years ago it was like

1052
00:39:05,900 --> 00:39:07,000
all these golf courses

1053
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:09,500
and things that we don't even talk about anymore

1054
00:39:09,766 --> 00:39:14,666
and I think I I know that we played the Brabazon

1055
00:39:14,666 --> 00:39:16,800
and most of my guys hated it

1056
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:18,966
but they love the golf course love the experience

1057
00:39:18,966 --> 00:39:20,466
love the whatever

1058
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:24,366
um but it destroyed them cause they

1059
00:39:24,366 --> 00:39:27,233
it wasn't a deep list of good quality golfers

1060
00:39:28,100 --> 00:39:30,466
but if we did go to one of these

1061
00:39:30,466 --> 00:39:32,366
to the ones that we are recommending

1062
00:39:32,366 --> 00:39:33,700
stay in the local inn

1063
00:39:33,900 --> 00:39:36,200
we probably had a much better time

1064
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:37,866
spent a lot less in the bar

1065
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:39,966
ha ha ha ha ha do you know it's

1066
00:39:39,966 --> 00:39:41,500
it's one of those things it's like

1067
00:39:41,500 --> 00:39:42,666
if you're doing these tours

1068
00:39:42,666 --> 00:39:45,400
and you're putting them to practical effect

1069
00:39:45,466 --> 00:39:47,400
if you've got a group of guys at different

1070
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:49,300
varying ranges of level

1071
00:39:49,500 --> 00:39:51,700
going to these places makes a big difference yeah

1072
00:39:51,700 --> 00:39:52,133
I think the

1073
00:39:52,133 --> 00:39:54,133
the golfing demographic is an interesting one

1074
00:39:54,133 --> 00:39:55,733
especially when you're putting a group together

1075
00:39:55,733 --> 00:39:56,300
you've you know

1076
00:39:56,300 --> 00:39:58,733
you've got to be aware of how much these things cost

1077
00:39:58,733 --> 00:40:00,033
too um

1078
00:40:00,066 --> 00:40:02,566
but some of those sites that you talk about they

1079
00:40:02,566 --> 00:40:04,033
they have a very definite

1080
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:06,800
a hugely positive effect on the game as well

1081
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:07,933
which is you know

1082
00:40:07,933 --> 00:40:09,800
there is an accessibility uh

1083
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:12,266
benefit as well um

1084
00:40:12,933 --> 00:40:13,733
and and

1085
00:40:13,733 --> 00:40:15,866
and they they certainly have a place um

1086
00:40:16,100 --> 00:40:16,700
both you know

1087
00:40:16,700 --> 00:40:19,333
in tournament golf and and in participation golf

1088
00:40:19,333 --> 00:40:20,133
so it's not you know

1089
00:40:20,133 --> 00:40:20,966
I think it's

1090
00:40:21,500 --> 00:40:21,733
I I I

1091
00:40:21,733 --> 00:40:24,566
I you can see in the rankings

1092
00:40:24,566 --> 00:40:26,633
how that perception has changed

1093
00:40:27,300 --> 00:40:30,500
but that's not to say that they're just completely

1094
00:40:30,500 --> 00:40:32,966
you know no go areas quite

1095
00:40:32,966 --> 00:40:34,100
quite from it in fact

1096
00:40:34,100 --> 00:40:35,033
I was um

1097
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:37,766
I was looking back at the 19 uh

1098
00:40:37,766 --> 00:40:40,300
89 Ryder Cup video a while ago

1099
00:40:40,366 --> 00:40:42,100
um and um

1100
00:40:42,300 --> 00:40:43,966
and that's quite fun because

1101
00:40:43,966 --> 00:40:46,700
you know clearly the Belfry has a couple

1102
00:40:46,700 --> 00:40:48,766
at least two holes which are really

1103
00:40:48,766 --> 00:40:51,866
really impressive from a golf architecture perspective

1104
00:40:52,266 --> 00:40:55,833
you know 10 and 18 are dramatic holes um

1105
00:40:55,900 --> 00:40:57,200
one could say that they're quirky

1106
00:40:57,200 --> 00:40:59,733
but they're on a big stadium style

1107
00:40:59,733 --> 00:41:00,900
I mean a 10 10

1108
00:41:00,900 --> 00:41:02,166
10 is you know

1109
00:41:02,166 --> 00:41:04,100
very brave design um

1110
00:41:04,666 --> 00:41:06,700
and 10 is the one that stuck with all of us

1111
00:41:06,900 --> 00:41:08,166
yes and and

1112
00:41:08,166 --> 00:41:08,366
and and

1113
00:41:08,366 --> 00:41:09,500
and it should it's a

1114
00:41:09,500 --> 00:41:10,933
it's a it's a really impressive

1115
00:41:10,933 --> 00:41:11,866
impressive we actually

1116
00:41:11,966 --> 00:41:13,200
it's a piece of architecture

1117
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:15,900
we filmed one of the boys Dougal

1118
00:41:15,933 --> 00:41:19,133
who the will hate the fact that I'm mentioning this

1119
00:41:19,133 --> 00:41:19,933
but uh

1120
00:41:20,466 --> 00:41:21,800
doogle uh

1121
00:41:21,900 --> 00:41:25,300
had a beautiful drive just left pin high

1122
00:41:25,300 --> 00:41:26,800
just left on the Fairway

1123
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:30,166
and proceeds to chunk it into the middle of the water

1124
00:41:30,466 --> 00:41:31,533
and uh

1125
00:41:31,533 --> 00:41:34,500
that video ended up going viral about 10 years ago

1126
00:41:34,766 --> 00:41:36,266
so wow hahaha

1127
00:41:36,766 --> 00:41:40,566
so it was a cause it his body just slumped

1128
00:41:40,566 --> 00:41:42,266
it was the most obvious like

1129
00:41:42,266 --> 00:41:44,300
oh no a moment

1130
00:41:44,300 --> 00:41:45,566
but sorry it's a

1131
00:41:45,700 --> 00:41:47,733
but that just shows you what the great golf course

1132
00:41:47,733 --> 00:41:51,400
architecture can do it really lasts in the memory yes

1133
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:51,966
yeah so

1134
00:41:51,966 --> 00:41:52,466
you know and then

1135
00:41:52,466 --> 00:41:53,133
and then it's you know

1136
00:41:53,133 --> 00:41:54,500
if you had 18 like that be

1137
00:41:54,500 --> 00:41:57,866
be one of the world's best golf courses and you know um

1138
00:41:58,033 --> 00:41:59,066
you can talk about

1139
00:41:59,066 --> 00:42:02,166
what is the least good hole on somewhere like Augusta

1140
00:42:02,166 --> 00:42:04,266
and have have great discussions about it

1141
00:42:04,266 --> 00:42:05,900
but you know there are at least um

1142
00:42:05,966 --> 00:42:08,600
17 wonderful holes at Augusta um

1143
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:09,300
of of

1144
00:42:09,300 --> 00:42:10,700
of of the highest of qualities

1145
00:42:10,700 --> 00:42:12,566
and I'll let you join the dots as to which one

1146
00:42:12,566 --> 00:42:13,966
I don't like um

1147
00:42:13,966 --> 00:42:16,133
but uh um yeah

1148
00:42:16,133 --> 00:42:17,400
and that's a personal opinion

1149
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:19,566
and I think that's what the whole thing about rankings

1150
00:42:19,566 --> 00:42:20,200
we spoke about this

1151
00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:21,500
and this is what we're to talk about

1152
00:42:21,500 --> 00:42:23,700
which is the England list that's coming out soon

1153
00:42:23,733 --> 00:42:26,566
is these are a measure of consensus

1154
00:42:26,566 --> 00:42:27,566
and they're a you know

1155
00:42:27,566 --> 00:42:30,866
measure measure of of the consensus of a very um

1156
00:42:31,066 --> 00:42:32,400
educated group as I say

1157
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:34,466
it comes from different areas

1158
00:42:34,466 --> 00:42:35,766
it comes from local built up

1159
00:42:35,766 --> 00:42:38,166
and you just did a great job last year

1160
00:42:38,166 --> 00:42:39,966
putting on a number of days around England

1161
00:42:39,966 --> 00:42:42,633
and identifying people who had um

1162
00:42:42,700 --> 00:42:45,800
a genuine passion and interest and you know

1163
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:48,666
I certainly wouldn't be interested in um you know

1164
00:42:48,666 --> 00:42:52,000
nominally leading a panel where people had a a you know

1165
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:55,100
in a particular one view and one view only

1166
00:42:55,300 --> 00:42:57,666
we want people with that variant perception

1167
00:42:57,666 --> 00:42:59,733
we want people with different views

1168
00:42:59,733 --> 00:43:02,200
and passions and interests in it

1169
00:43:02,366 --> 00:43:05,166
and you stick it in and statistically it comes out

1170
00:43:05,166 --> 00:43:07,366
and this is what the rankings do

1171
00:43:07,366 --> 00:43:10,366
and they are they are a barometer of where golf

1172
00:43:10,366 --> 00:43:13,366
and golf architecture and appreciation of courses are

1173
00:43:13,366 --> 00:43:16,566
the other thing I think is important for the rankings

1174
00:43:16,566 --> 00:43:16,933
um

1175
00:43:16,933 --> 00:43:22,100
is to try and understand where mistakes are made and

1176
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:25,966
you know I think you will see in the future rankings

1177
00:43:25,966 --> 00:43:27,800
that there's you know

1178
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:30,700
some of the spending that's been done by some clubs

1179
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:33,266
has maybe been done a little clumsily

1180
00:43:33,300 --> 00:43:35,733
and I think you'll see a difference

1181
00:43:35,733 --> 00:43:38,766
in the rankings over the next few years

1182
00:43:39,133 --> 00:43:43,233
and it will take years there are things fade um

1183
00:43:43,866 --> 00:43:45,300
where maybe mistakes have been made

1184
00:43:45,300 --> 00:43:48,000
because the people haven't been true to the original

1185
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:50,400
spirit of the original design

1186
00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:52,666
the land the the topography

1187
00:43:52,666 --> 00:43:56,133
the aesthetic and they've gone for the shiny new

1188
00:43:56,133 --> 00:43:58,866
wiggly white bunker or whatever it might be

1189
00:43:59,333 --> 00:44:01,333
and those are fashions and fashions and you know

1190
00:44:01,333 --> 00:44:02,600
back in the 60s and 70s

1191
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:04,466
it was plant trees everywhere and

1192
00:44:04,466 --> 00:44:06,200
and try and be um

1193
00:44:06,333 --> 00:44:09,000
you know try and be a uh

1194
00:44:09,366 --> 00:44:10,666
a separated golf course

1195
00:44:10,666 --> 00:44:12,600
and now people are opening up golf courses

1196
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:16,966
so things do change but if you focus on the key

1197
00:44:17,166 --> 00:44:18,533
aspects of architecture

1198
00:44:18,533 --> 00:44:21,133
that you mentioned in our ranking guidance Jasper

1199
00:44:21,133 --> 00:44:24,233
which is you're having the ground gang having options

1200
00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:28,233
um having space and in to provide those

1201
00:44:28,266 --> 00:44:31,900
the level of agronomy for that at an acceptable level

1202
00:44:32,066 --> 00:44:34,566
you need space light and air and um

1203
00:44:34,666 --> 00:44:36,900
that's why tree clearance is happening

1204
00:44:36,900 --> 00:44:40,833
and everything else but the obvious um

1205
00:44:41,333 --> 00:44:44,766
spending on usually hazards um

1206
00:44:44,766 --> 00:44:46,466
I think some of it is quite misguided

1207
00:44:46,466 --> 00:44:47,600
but that's a personal view

1208
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:49,900
and I think that will potentially

1209
00:44:50,333 --> 00:44:51,800
change over the next few years

1210
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:54,100
white sand with concrete underneath it right

1211
00:44:54,266 --> 00:44:55,766
ha ha ha ha ha concrete

1212
00:44:55,766 --> 00:44:57,900
rubber you know whatever you want to put under it oh

1213
00:44:58,066 --> 00:45:01,366
and yeah I know a few courses are not around me

1214
00:45:01,366 --> 00:45:05,266
but I will I'll leave them unnamed that have had

1215
00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:08,100
because of weird winds and different things

1216
00:45:08,100 --> 00:45:10,733
they've had preferred lies and bunkers

1217
00:45:10,733 --> 00:45:12,800
because of this concrete underlaying

1218
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:15,966
and anyway and now they're costing a fortune

1219
00:45:15,966 --> 00:45:18,000
because they haven't put new sand in the whole time

1220
00:45:18,266 --> 00:45:20,166
and they thought it was gonna be a saving

1221
00:45:20,700 --> 00:45:23,200
well it's it's interesting cause you know um

1222
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:24,766
you know we moved in

1223
00:45:24,766 --> 00:45:25,966
we've had a lot of

1224
00:45:26,700 --> 00:45:27,933
there's a place for everything

1225
00:45:27,933 --> 00:45:32,266
and a lot of this technology is really useful

1226
00:45:32,266 --> 00:45:34,766
in certain it needs to solve a problem

1227
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:37,200
but people aren't using it to solve a problem

1228
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:39,800
they're using it to spend to keep up with the Joneses

1229
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:41,700
so a lot of it was about

1230
00:45:41,700 --> 00:45:42,500
you know

1231
00:45:42,500 --> 00:45:44,900
stopping contamination and and everything else and

1232
00:45:44,900 --> 00:45:47,133
and people are using it in the wrong places

1233
00:45:47,133 --> 00:45:48,700
and I've seen you know

1234
00:45:48,700 --> 00:45:49,666
wiggle wiggly

1235
00:45:49,666 --> 00:45:53,766
exposed sand scrappy type bunkers up on chalk downland

1236
00:45:53,766 --> 00:45:56,333
where it's windy and you know

1237
00:45:56,333 --> 00:45:57,566
it's gonna get blown around

1238
00:45:57,566 --> 00:46:00,033
and it's gonna cause a maintenance hazard um

1239
00:46:00,100 --> 00:46:00,333
you know

1240
00:46:00,333 --> 00:46:02,333
there's a reason rivetting came in and you know

1241
00:46:02,333 --> 00:46:05,700
when Colt rebunkered um raw Liverpool

1242
00:46:05,866 --> 00:46:07,900
he spent a lot of time working out where the winds

1243
00:46:07,900 --> 00:46:08,900
were going so he could work

1244
00:46:08,900 --> 00:46:10,800
which way the bunkers should be oriented

1245
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:11,966
so that the wind wouldn't blow

1246
00:46:11,966 --> 00:46:13,100
the sand out of the bunkers

1247
00:46:13,100 --> 00:46:14,200
and revetted you know

1248
00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:15,666
making them smaller and revetted

1249
00:46:15,666 --> 00:46:19,966
and more contained was a a a solution to a problem and

1250
00:46:19,966 --> 00:46:22,766
um I think people misidentify the problem

1251
00:46:22,766 --> 00:46:25,000
and they go for the shiny and new and

1252
00:46:25,066 --> 00:46:27,033
you know the obvious spend um

1253
00:46:27,366 --> 00:46:28,966
you know which is uh

1254
00:46:29,333 --> 00:46:31,066
it's a human condition but you know

1255
00:46:31,066 --> 00:46:32,100
that's that it's for the it's

1256
00:46:32,100 --> 00:46:34,066
it's for the experts to to guide them better

1257
00:46:34,066 --> 00:46:35,333
I think um

1258
00:46:35,333 --> 00:46:37,133
I was at Cape Wickham last year

1259
00:46:37,133 --> 00:46:38,000
and

1260
00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:41,533
I've never seen a collection of smaller bunkers

1261
00:46:41,533 --> 00:46:42,000
in the world

1262
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:43,900
cause it's one of the windiest golf courses

1263
00:46:43,900 --> 00:46:45,200
you ever play in the world

1264
00:46:45,466 --> 00:46:49,066
each bunker is like a 10 pence piece they collect

1265
00:46:49,066 --> 00:46:51,266
they collect a lot yes

1266
00:46:51,266 --> 00:46:54,133
but they're tiny and they're potted

1267
00:46:54,133 --> 00:46:56,466
so it just means that you go in them

1268
00:46:56,500 --> 00:46:58,566
good luck but they just can't

1269
00:46:58,566 --> 00:46:59,300
there's so much wind

1270
00:46:59,300 --> 00:47:01,466
that they can't even retain a bunker

1271
00:47:01,466 --> 00:47:03,200
facing the wrong way you know

1272
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:05,300
or the right way as Cole would put it

1273
00:47:05,300 --> 00:47:06,266
but there's some

1274
00:47:06,866 --> 00:47:07,400
yeah no

1275
00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:08,366
it's really interesting

1276
00:47:08,366 --> 00:47:13,733
because it leads from a number of golf courses

1277
00:47:13,733 --> 00:47:15,766
rushing to that Augusta effect

1278
00:47:15,766 --> 00:47:17,400
that we've been talking about

1279
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:18,300
chasing

1280
00:47:18,966 --> 00:47:24,300
the thing that Augusta has been for the last 50 years

1281
00:47:24,900 --> 00:47:28,533
to Augusta this week just turning around and going no

1282
00:47:28,533 --> 00:47:29,900
we're going firm and fast

1283
00:47:30,066 --> 00:47:30,533
which is yeah

1284
00:47:30,533 --> 00:47:31,300
I mean I actually

1285
00:47:31,300 --> 00:47:32,200
actually saw a

1286
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:34,100
I actually heard on commentary and I thought oh

1287
00:47:34,100 --> 00:47:37,066
it'll be interesting to see how the club feel about it

1288
00:47:37,066 --> 00:47:37,966
I had a you know

1289
00:47:37,966 --> 00:47:41,800
one of the commentating teams described the uh

1290
00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:44,366
greens before play yesterday

1291
00:47:44,366 --> 00:47:46,700
yesterday as slightly yellowing

1292
00:47:47,666 --> 00:47:50,066
which previously would have caused them

1293
00:47:50,066 --> 00:47:52,566
for the badge to be withdrawn um

1294
00:47:52,666 --> 00:47:55,533
but it seems to be almost a badge of honour this year

1295
00:47:55,533 --> 00:47:56,366
as we've discussed

1296
00:47:56,366 --> 00:47:58,533
in terms of the discussion of firm and fast

1297
00:47:58,533 --> 00:48:00,166
and we're recording this on day 1

1298
00:48:00,166 --> 00:48:01,366
it's gonna be a dry weekend

1299
00:48:01,366 --> 00:48:04,066
it's supposed to be a windy weekend um

1300
00:48:04,333 --> 00:48:06,533
I having been absorbed by it

1301
00:48:06,533 --> 00:48:07,733
not just by a Lafayette

1302
00:48:07,733 --> 00:48:10,033
but absorbed generally yesterday

1303
00:48:10,733 --> 00:48:11,400
um evening

1304
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:12,500
once said you know

1305
00:48:12,700 --> 00:48:13,866
looking in the evening I'm

1306
00:48:13,866 --> 00:48:16,766
I'm hopeful this will be one of the best ever masters

1307
00:48:16,766 --> 00:48:18,000
because we're seeing

1308
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:21,766
people having to scramble for power in

1309
00:48:21,766 --> 00:48:25,366
from so many areas and it's a war of attrition

1310
00:48:25,366 --> 00:48:28,700
but nevertheless the talent of these golfers is showing

1311
00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:29,600
um and

1312
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:32,200
and that's what Augusta and good

1313
00:48:32,300 --> 00:48:34,966
good architecture can do so um

1314
00:48:35,166 --> 00:48:35,800
yeah I'm hopeful

1315
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:36,266
I'm hopeful

1316
00:48:36,266 --> 00:48:38,733
it does become a little bit of an example for people

1317
00:48:38,733 --> 00:48:40,666
so as you say Jasper

1318
00:48:40,666 --> 00:48:41,733
no one doesn't walk

1319
00:48:41,733 --> 00:48:43,500
no one walks into the secretary's office and said

1320
00:48:43,500 --> 00:48:46,566
oh yeah that Green's Browning off a little bit um

1321
00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:49,266
you know without understanding really what

1322
00:48:49,366 --> 00:48:52,700
you know that may be from an agronomical perspective um

1323
00:48:52,766 --> 00:48:53,400
and you know

1324
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:56,333
so hopefully it can be a positive poster child

1325
00:48:56,333 --> 00:48:59,066
as opposed to what it has been in the past

1326
00:48:59,066 --> 00:49:01,500
which was something unattainable for being

1327
00:49:01,500 --> 00:49:04,466
people forget Augustus only open 5 months of the year

1328
00:49:04,933 --> 00:49:06,566
um and they

1329
00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:09,466
the amount of spending they can have and

1330
00:49:09,500 --> 00:49:11,933
and the Players Services building was put up in a year

1331
00:49:11,933 --> 00:49:13,366
I mean and it's just

1332
00:49:13,366 --> 00:49:15,200
it's bonkers um

1333
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:17,200
you know and all

1334
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:19,366
all credits and they can do it and everything else

1335
00:49:19,366 --> 00:49:22,400
but it's completely unobtainable for the average

1336
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:23,333
average club yeah

1337
00:49:23,333 --> 00:49:26,500
there's a there's an interesting story at um uh

1338
00:49:26,866 --> 00:49:30,366
at Augusta where there's the uh

1339
00:49:30,366 --> 00:49:32,433
the meeting with the chairman um

1340
00:49:32,566 --> 00:49:33,800
with the the Agusta members

1341
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:35,200
I'll show up obviously for the

1342
00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:38,066
the big week and there's a uh

1343
00:49:38,333 --> 00:49:40,133
like an AGM of sorts

1344
00:49:40,133 --> 00:49:42,466
where all the members that are on site or on campus

1345
00:49:42,466 --> 00:49:43,733
as they say uh

1346
00:49:43,733 --> 00:49:45,500
get to meet with the the chairman

1347
00:49:45,500 --> 00:49:47,000
and the chairman's first point is

1348
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:48,433
update on the golf courses

1349
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:49,700
and uh

1350
00:49:49,766 --> 00:49:52,366
it's about a sentence long goes the story um

1351
00:49:52,466 --> 00:49:54,533
and the chairman simply says we've made changes

1352
00:49:54,533 --> 00:49:57,266
I know you're gonna like them and that's it

1353
00:49:57,600 --> 00:50:00,666
we'll move on so yeah it's an interesting one

1354
00:50:00,666 --> 00:50:01,733
but they are definitely the

1355
00:50:01,733 --> 00:50:05,966
the tip of the spear and I think more than anything um

1356
00:50:06,066 --> 00:50:08,866
Augusta kind of sets the tone for everything that comes

1357
00:50:08,866 --> 00:50:11,000
comes behind it so yeah

1358
00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:12,933
I think we're all here for it um

1359
00:50:12,933 --> 00:50:14,300
if it's a little bit firmer

1360
00:50:14,300 --> 00:50:16,333
a little bit faster um

1361
00:50:16,333 --> 00:50:18,766
it'll be good I I listen to a podcast

1362
00:50:18,766 --> 00:50:20,466
I think it was Garrett Morrison and

1363
00:50:20,466 --> 00:50:22,466
and Brian Schneider discussing

1364
00:50:22,700 --> 00:50:26,366
it's the tail end of it discussing turf conditions

1365
00:50:26,700 --> 00:50:29,000
and they're saying it's actually quite clever because

1366
00:50:29,266 --> 00:50:31,200
I mean this is how dialed in Augusta is

1367
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:32,500
is that mowing heights

1368
00:50:32,500 --> 00:50:33,966
at certain points on that property

1369
00:50:33,966 --> 00:50:35,200
are higher than others

1370
00:50:35,366 --> 00:50:37,733
because they actually want the ball to

1371
00:50:37,733 --> 00:50:40,200
stop on a side slope down slope

1372
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:43,466
up slope um where if everything was just

1373
00:50:43,466 --> 00:50:43,900
you know

1374
00:50:43,900 --> 00:50:46,800
millimetres and they could do that if they wanted to um

1375
00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:48,566
but they'll actually try and get

1376
00:50:48,566 --> 00:50:50,700
instead of everything kind of falling to the bottom of

1377
00:50:50,700 --> 00:50:52,100
and everybody's got a level lie

1378
00:50:52,100 --> 00:50:54,066
they want it to to hold uh

1379
00:50:54,066 --> 00:50:57,566
and that's I mean that's what makes a 13 so good um

1380
00:50:57,666 --> 00:50:59,133
you know you get that ball above your feet

1381
00:50:59,133 --> 00:51:01,000
and it's kind of a little bit back

1382
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:02,200
you know behind you

1383
00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:03,600
and downhill and sidehill and

1384
00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:04,533
now you're trying to hit like this

1385
00:51:04,533 --> 00:51:05,633
cut into a

1386
00:51:06,233 --> 00:51:08,900
it's it's that level of detail

1387
00:51:09,100 --> 00:51:10,466
uh and to your point Simon

1388
00:51:10,466 --> 00:51:11,466
um you know

1389
00:51:11,466 --> 00:51:13,066
there's very few courses that have

1390
00:51:13,066 --> 00:51:13,300
you know

1391
00:51:13,300 --> 00:51:15,866
they set the mowers up and they let the boys go or the

1392
00:51:15,866 --> 00:51:17,266
or the robots at this point

1393
00:51:17,266 --> 00:51:18,200
but um

1394
00:51:18,766 --> 00:51:19,333
you know they yeah

1395
00:51:19,333 --> 00:51:20,300
they think yeah

1396
00:51:20,300 --> 00:51:21,300
I think you're right

1397
00:51:21,300 --> 00:51:23,533
I think that the thing about August is

1398
00:51:23,533 --> 00:51:24,966
everything's done with intent

1399
00:51:25,266 --> 00:51:27,800
and that intent is to release the topography

1400
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:29,300
and release the shot making

1401
00:51:29,300 --> 00:51:31,666
that's required and um

1402
00:51:31,866 --> 00:51:32,133
that's

1403
00:51:32,133 --> 00:51:34,100
another video that people should go back and look at

1404
00:51:34,100 --> 00:51:34,900
is the

1405
00:51:34,966 --> 00:51:37,900
the three minutes of deliberation that Nick Faldo had

1406
00:51:37,933 --> 00:51:40,533
on the 13th Fairway back in 96 yeah

1407
00:51:40,533 --> 00:51:42,666
was it 2 iron or 5 wood yeah

1408
00:51:42,666 --> 00:51:43,400
and and

1409
00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:43,933
and it just

1410
00:51:43,933 --> 00:51:46,166
you can see how he's struggling with the topography

1411
00:51:46,166 --> 00:51:46,966
and it's um

1412
00:51:47,266 --> 00:51:48,766
even on the 2 iron you know

1413
00:51:48,766 --> 00:51:50,700
literally just before he pulls the trigger

1414
00:51:50,700 --> 00:51:52,400
he's trying to get his feet in the right position

1415
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:53,200
and it's um

1416
00:51:53,500 --> 00:51:54,933
it's something quite quite

1417
00:51:54,933 --> 00:51:56,766
quite impressive so

1418
00:51:56,766 --> 00:51:57,333
but yeah I mean

1419
00:51:57,333 --> 00:52:00,100
in terms of how how are these things

1420
00:52:00,100 --> 00:52:00,533
you know our

1421
00:52:00,533 --> 00:52:03,200
our England list is is say coming out

1422
00:52:03,700 --> 00:52:04,533
um you know

1423
00:52:04,533 --> 00:52:06,900
I'm extremely honoured thank you

1424
00:52:06,900 --> 00:52:07,333
Jasper

1425
00:52:07,333 --> 00:52:10,366
and the whole organisation for asking me to be lead

1426
00:52:10,366 --> 00:52:10,933
I you know

1427
00:52:10,933 --> 00:52:12,100
I stepped in following others

1428
00:52:12,100 --> 00:52:13,900
and we've got a really good

1429
00:52:14,133 --> 00:52:16,733
really good group of panelists and I think people will

1430
00:52:16,733 --> 00:52:17,500
will will

1431
00:52:17,500 --> 00:52:19,900
enjoy the list and enjoy the debate about the list

1432
00:52:19,900 --> 00:52:22,666
which they're always debated um

1433
00:52:22,866 --> 00:52:23,700
and uh

1434
00:52:23,866 --> 00:52:25,966
you know it's to celebrate architecture and you know

1435
00:52:25,966 --> 00:52:27,133
we talked about Mackenzie at

1436
00:52:27,133 --> 00:52:27,800
at uh

1437
00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:30,800
at uh Augusta and you know we've mentioned Colt

1438
00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:33,566
we mentioned Simpson we mentioned others um

1439
00:52:33,700 --> 00:52:34,600
and uh

1440
00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:34,900
you know

1441
00:52:34,900 --> 00:52:37,766
you've identified that I've got a particular uh

1442
00:52:37,900 --> 00:52:39,400
research bias to to

1443
00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:41,933
to James Braid I want to assure listeners

1444
00:52:41,933 --> 00:52:44,333
and those involved in the rankings that uh

1445
00:52:44,333 --> 00:52:46,800
braid courses will not fly up the rankings

1446
00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:49,066
just because I'm the lead um

1447
00:52:49,133 --> 00:52:50,166
and in fact um

1448
00:52:50,366 --> 00:52:51,266
to to to

1449
00:52:51,266 --> 00:52:54,600
to to evidence that I've done some stats and uh um

1450
00:52:55,066 --> 00:52:58,000
my my race on Detroit in life is to raise the uh

1451
00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:00,900
the talent of James Brad's in people's minds um

1452
00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:02,733
but you were pleased to hear that there is a

1453
00:53:02,733 --> 00:53:04,666
extremely moderate um

1454
00:53:04,733 --> 00:53:06,100
average move of 1

1455
00:53:06,100 --> 00:53:08,933
1 ranking place for braid courses on the list

1456
00:53:08,933 --> 00:53:11,600
so it's not a not skewed out um

1457
00:53:11,600 --> 00:53:13,400
there's no personal biases in this list

1458
00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:16,000
it's a collection of rankers so um

1459
00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:17,766
and the rankings that come out of those

1460
00:53:17,766 --> 00:53:19,666
and maybe that's a good point um

1461
00:53:19,666 --> 00:53:22,700
just a couple of a couple of things just to note um

1462
00:53:22,700 --> 00:53:25,600
so obviously we've got some new entries um

1463
00:53:25,933 --> 00:53:27,800
so and maybe this is a time just to go into the

1464
00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:29,466
some of the nuts and bolts of the

1465
00:53:29,466 --> 00:53:32,266
the ranking itself so new entries um

1466
00:53:32,366 --> 00:53:34,766
we talked about some risers uh

1467
00:53:34,766 --> 00:53:36,266
the big ones but new entries

1468
00:53:37,300 --> 00:53:40,433
uh C scale so that was cool to see um

1469
00:53:40,600 --> 00:53:42,733
I think because of its geographic location

1470
00:53:42,733 --> 00:53:43,466
and sylith

1471
00:53:43,466 --> 00:53:46,866
getting a lot of press over the last few years uh

1472
00:53:46,866 --> 00:53:48,800
C scale's almost been forgotten about

1473
00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:50,400
because even if you get to sylith

1474
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:52,833
which is a trek in and of itself uh

1475
00:53:52,933 --> 00:53:54,133
even once you're there

1476
00:53:54,133 --> 00:53:56,100
C scale still difficult to get to

1477
00:53:56,100 --> 00:53:58,600
then we had form B ladies um

1478
00:53:58,600 --> 00:54:00,400
which I think everybody I

1479
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:04,566
I love the fact that the the English uh

1480
00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:06,466
hundred has a course like that

1481
00:54:06,466 --> 00:54:08,866
because everybody would look at uh

1482
00:54:09,166 --> 00:54:09,866
form B

1483
00:54:09,866 --> 00:54:12,733
which does see a rise and there'll be some interesting

1484
00:54:12,733 --> 00:54:15,433
um discussions around Merseyside

1485
00:54:15,466 --> 00:54:19,400
but the most people go to form b's

1486
00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:21,266
and then not spend time at Form b's ladies

1487
00:54:21,266 --> 00:54:21,600
and I I

1488
00:54:21,600 --> 00:54:23,166
I hope I

1489
00:54:23,166 --> 00:54:25,733
genuinely hope that if you're going to form B1

1490
00:54:25,733 --> 00:54:26,200
or the other

1491
00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:28,433
that you tackle on the other one and make it 36

1492
00:54:28,533 --> 00:54:30,966
because they they're similar in places

1493
00:54:30,966 --> 00:54:33,233
but they're completely different golf courses

1494
00:54:33,266 --> 00:54:34,766
over the same piece of land

1495
00:54:34,766 --> 00:54:35,933
and even from that perspective

1496
00:54:35,933 --> 00:54:36,600
it's a cool

1497
00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:39,466
it's a cool thing to see and something to contemplate

1498
00:54:40,066 --> 00:54:40,900
uh I was

1499
00:54:40,900 --> 00:54:42,666
I was sorry to jump in

1500
00:54:42,666 --> 00:54:45,300
like Jasper over went there in October

1501
00:54:45,300 --> 00:54:47,500
for the first time to play Formula E

1502
00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:51,400
and it's more links than Formby is

1503
00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:54,133
Formby is a combination of links and heathland and

1504
00:54:54,133 --> 00:54:56,200
and forested in places um

1505
00:54:56,200 --> 00:54:58,533
and it's great for that and I love Formby uh

1506
00:54:58,533 --> 00:55:00,266
the main course and um

1507
00:55:00,266 --> 00:55:01,466
there's a few interesting

1508
00:55:01,466 --> 00:55:02,266
you know I know

1509
00:55:02,266 --> 00:55:05,200
Joe and Sam are doing a couple of changes on the 7th

1510
00:55:05,200 --> 00:55:07,700
and that work looks to be really well considered

1511
00:55:07,866 --> 00:55:10,000
um but as a cohesive 18

1512
00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:13,400
Formby is ladies is a joy

1513
00:55:13,600 --> 00:55:15,866
um it may be 5,000 yards odd

1514
00:55:15,866 --> 00:55:19,266
but it is a it's a real test of golf

1515
00:55:19,500 --> 00:55:20,300
um

1516
00:55:20,666 --> 00:55:22,466
the best graduated

1517
00:55:22,766 --> 00:55:25,900
Heather management I've seen on a golf course ever

1518
00:55:26,966 --> 00:55:28,000
really intelligent

1519
00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:31,466
using Heather as rough and having Semi Heather

1520
00:55:31,933 --> 00:55:33,300
which is a really

1521
00:55:33,300 --> 00:55:36,066
really clever way of ensuring that people don't

1522
00:55:36,066 --> 00:55:37,233
you know lose balls

1523
00:55:37,500 --> 00:55:39,700
they get caught up in the first cut of Heather

1524
00:55:40,366 --> 00:55:41,966
so it's really well kept and

1525
00:55:41,966 --> 00:55:42,966
you know the

1526
00:55:43,733 --> 00:55:45,100
uh the superintendent and and and

1527
00:55:45,100 --> 00:55:47,500
and the team there should be lauded for it

1528
00:55:47,566 --> 00:55:48,866
um but yeah it's

1529
00:55:48,866 --> 00:55:49,800
it's it's a joy

1530
00:55:49,800 --> 00:55:52,100
an absolute joy and it is the last remaining

1531
00:55:52,100 --> 00:55:54,300
ladies only club in England

1532
00:55:54,600 --> 00:55:57,500
um and for that we should celebrate it too

1533
00:55:57,566 --> 00:56:00,200
um I know politically we may well may be

1534
00:56:00,200 --> 00:56:02,500
should be calling it Formby Women's but um

1535
00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:05,100
that's for them to decide but

1536
00:56:06,366 --> 00:56:07,100
you know I think it

1537
00:56:07,100 --> 00:56:08,233
I think there's a real

1538
00:56:08,533 --> 00:56:12,200
real place to celebrate the women's game and um

1539
00:56:12,600 --> 00:56:14,266
guys that look down on it

1540
00:56:14,666 --> 00:56:16,366
shame on you you're missing a great

1541
00:56:16,366 --> 00:56:17,966
great golf course yeah

1542
00:56:17,966 --> 00:56:20,566
and hopefully hopefully more people will seek it out

1543
00:56:20,666 --> 00:56:23,400
um and it's a shame that sometimes they need that uh

1544
00:56:23,400 --> 00:56:24,533
it needs to be on a list

1545
00:56:24,533 --> 00:56:26,733
for them to be considered to go um

1546
00:56:26,733 --> 00:56:29,166
but I think there'll be a lot of people that find

1547
00:56:29,200 --> 00:56:31,266
I think the reception um

1548
00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:36,300
that will be had is that for a lot of people

1549
00:56:36,300 --> 00:56:38,933
they say finally and then for a lot of other people

1550
00:56:38,933 --> 00:56:40,566
it'll be a gateway course

1551
00:56:40,566 --> 00:56:41,533
for them to start looking at

1552
00:56:41,533 --> 00:56:44,066
courses that are less than 6,000 yards as

1553
00:56:44,066 --> 00:56:45,933
as potential ones to go and enjoy

1554
00:56:45,933 --> 00:56:47,500
for an American listeners right now

1555
00:56:47,500 --> 00:56:49,933
I know Mike Kaiser was over in the UK last year

1556
00:56:49,933 --> 00:56:52,066
and what he was doing was going around

1557
00:56:52,066 --> 00:56:55,800
looking at all the under 6,000 courses

1558
00:56:55,800 --> 00:56:58,533
a 600 a 6,000 yard courses that you can find

1559
00:56:58,533 --> 00:57:00,700
because he thinks that is the future of golf

1560
00:57:00,700 --> 00:57:02,266
within America particularly

1561
00:57:02,266 --> 00:57:04,200
because the majority of Americans

1562
00:57:04,300 --> 00:57:06,033
are that older generation

1563
00:57:06,466 --> 00:57:08,300
and he wants to make great golf courses

1564
00:57:08,300 --> 00:57:09,833
under 6,000 yards

1565
00:57:10,133 --> 00:57:12,766
and if you got someone like Mike Kaiser doing that

1566
00:57:12,766 --> 00:57:15,466
then you really you need to pay attention

1567
00:57:15,466 --> 00:57:16,866
yeah I think yeah and and

1568
00:57:16,866 --> 00:57:18,933
and why he's also putting his money where his mouth is

1569
00:57:18,933 --> 00:57:20,200
you look at Sage Valley and

1570
00:57:20,200 --> 00:57:21,600
and on what Dukes done there

1571
00:57:21,600 --> 00:57:24,400
that's past 68 and maybe 6,200

1572
00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:25,400
but it's you know

1573
00:57:25,400 --> 00:57:27,600
you gotta move these things gradually um

1574
00:57:27,733 --> 00:57:29,700
and the other wonderful course that is not on our list

1575
00:57:29,700 --> 00:57:30,500
but um

1576
00:57:30,733 --> 00:57:31,833
you know um

1577
00:57:32,100 --> 00:57:32,900
you know it's it's

1578
00:57:32,966 --> 00:57:34,366
it's a great course in Sunningdale Heath

1579
00:57:34,366 --> 00:57:35,500
which is um

1580
00:57:35,500 --> 00:57:36,200
you know

1581
00:57:36,200 --> 00:57:39,500
5,000 odd yards and you know

1582
00:57:39,733 --> 00:57:41,633
part part 58 um

1583
00:57:41,800 --> 00:57:46,133
and is a joy sticking with Cumbria uh Appleby um

1584
00:57:46,133 --> 00:57:49,366
so this is one that's it's an interesting one I

1585
00:57:49,366 --> 00:57:51,066
I waxed lyrical about it so

1586
00:57:51,066 --> 00:57:52,600
I know there will be some naysayers out there

1587
00:57:52,600 --> 00:57:53,166
that's like oh

1588
00:57:53,166 --> 00:57:55,200
Jasper like shoehorn this one in

1589
00:57:55,366 --> 00:57:57,200
um that's not the case

1590
00:57:57,200 --> 00:58:00,100
it it came on my radar um

1591
00:58:00,100 --> 00:58:02,166
because we had quite a few people who had seen it

1592
00:58:02,166 --> 00:58:04,566
especially from our northern panel that loved it

1593
00:58:04,666 --> 00:58:06,100
um I had heard about it

1594
00:58:06,100 --> 00:58:07,333
I had not uh

1595
00:58:07,333 --> 00:58:08,200
I had not been to see it

1596
00:58:08,200 --> 00:58:09,900
we had a few people that said it's really

1597
00:58:09,900 --> 00:58:12,333
really good like it's probably third in Cumbria

1598
00:58:12,333 --> 00:58:14,566
which is where it's ended up landing

1599
00:58:14,933 --> 00:58:15,766
um

1600
00:58:16,533 --> 00:58:18,733
and it'll be interesting to see the reception of that

1601
00:58:18,733 --> 00:58:19,600
but I again

1602
00:58:19,600 --> 00:58:20,666
70 quid I think

1603
00:58:20,666 --> 00:58:21,666
or no let me see

1604
00:58:21,666 --> 00:58:23,000
35 quid sorry

1605
00:58:23,000 --> 00:58:26,866
doubled it a 35 quid you could play Applebee's for um

1606
00:58:26,866 --> 00:58:29,066
I know CDP is in their consulting now

1607
00:58:29,066 --> 00:58:30,533
hopefully they don't change it too much

1608
00:58:30,533 --> 00:58:32,400
I know there's a couple of things they're looking at

1609
00:58:32,400 --> 00:58:34,500
um we're not saying it's a perfect golf course

1610
00:58:34,500 --> 00:58:36,700
and that's why it's got the ranking it's got

1611
00:58:36,800 --> 00:58:39,766
but it's one of those golf courses I think that

1612
00:58:39,766 --> 00:58:43,000
you know a lot of people will drive past it uh

1613
00:58:43,066 --> 00:58:44,700
on their way from one course to another if you

1614
00:58:44,700 --> 00:58:47,766
especially if you're going up to the northwest um

1615
00:58:47,900 --> 00:58:52,100
but Appleby is definitely worth a play and we

1616
00:58:52,100 --> 00:58:54,500
we actually got quite a few people there

1617
00:58:54,500 --> 00:58:57,166
because I think early on it was highlighted

1618
00:58:57,166 --> 00:58:58,000
and we're like really

1619
00:58:58,000 --> 00:59:00,166
are we really gonna think about this

1620
00:59:00,266 --> 00:59:02,766
and then we ended up getting quite a few people there

1621
00:59:02,766 --> 00:59:04,600
and without fail they came back

1622
00:59:04,600 --> 00:59:07,466
and of anyone in the panel

1623
00:59:07,466 --> 00:59:09,000
who had played anything in Cumbria

1624
00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:13,600
it was Silith Seascale and Appleby

1625
00:59:13,933 --> 00:59:17,033
and after we asked them virtually universally

1626
00:59:17,700 --> 00:59:19,566
they they came back with those three

1627
00:59:19,566 --> 00:59:23,600
so it's nice to see a course like Appleby go in um

1628
00:59:23,600 --> 00:59:26,833
and then we had Denham and dunstanburgh uh

1629
00:59:27,166 --> 00:59:31,766
come in and denim I think is a an interesting one

1630
00:59:32,400 --> 00:59:33,300
again it's short

1631
00:59:33,300 --> 00:59:35,133
it's a it's got cult heritage

1632
00:59:35,133 --> 00:59:36,466
it's got braid heritage

1633
00:59:36,466 --> 00:59:39,766
it's got hotri and Taylor heritage

1634
00:59:39,766 --> 00:59:42,600
so hotri and Taylor did some really funky stuff there

1635
00:59:42,600 --> 00:59:45,100
on a couple of the green sites um

1636
00:59:45,166 --> 00:59:47,300
which has been actually restored uh

1637
00:59:47,466 --> 00:59:49,700
Clyde Johnson's been in there doing some work

1638
00:59:49,866 --> 00:59:53,166
and I think it's one of those courses that

1639
00:59:53,300 --> 00:59:56,233
for a lot of years it was a

1640
00:59:56,533 --> 00:59:59,100
a private club for for all intents and purposes

1641
00:59:59,100 --> 01:00:01,800
you could probably get on if you really wanted to um

1642
01:00:01,966 --> 01:00:04,466
it's not necessarily put itself in the spotlight

1643
01:00:04,600 --> 01:00:07,066
it's got one of the best clubhouses in the game uh

1644
01:00:07,166 --> 01:00:09,166
the lunch honestly the lunch

1645
01:00:09,166 --> 01:00:11,366
it's next level it's next level

1646
01:00:11,366 --> 01:00:11,866
it I mean

1647
01:00:11,866 --> 01:00:14,066
it's a special if you're going for a society day

1648
01:00:14,066 --> 01:00:15,366
or you wanna have a proper

1649
01:00:15,366 --> 01:00:17,033
English golf club experience

1650
01:00:17,466 --> 01:00:20,566
uh there's not meirfield or sandwich or Rye uh

1651
01:00:20,566 --> 01:00:22,100
denim is like a brilliant shout

1652
01:00:22,100 --> 01:00:24,200
eating in that clubhouse is not bizarre

1653
01:00:24,200 --> 01:00:26,566
when you have so many deadheads around you

1654
01:00:26,566 --> 01:00:27,966
hahaha that you're eating

1655
01:00:28,400 --> 01:00:30,266
it's just'cause it's it's like a hunting lodge

1656
01:00:30,266 --> 01:00:31,266
it's just like

1657
01:00:32,000 --> 01:00:33,933
it's just bloody stags heads everywhere

1658
01:00:33,933 --> 01:00:34,466
or like

1659
01:00:34,466 --> 01:00:37,900
random animals that were shot back in the colonies

1660
01:00:37,966 --> 01:00:38,533
ha ha ha well

1661
01:00:38,533 --> 01:00:40,066
I think that's what it was yeah

1662
01:00:40,333 --> 01:00:42,600
I think what you're both telling us is that

1663
01:00:42,700 --> 01:00:46,033
denim's falling out of the Top 100 Vegan Club list

1664
01:00:47,700 --> 01:00:53,233
it is a carnivore's paradise in regard to both um uh

1665
01:00:53,766 --> 01:00:56,500
shooting trophies and if you want meat sweats

1666
01:00:56,500 --> 01:00:58,666
then yeah you can get it at denim

1667
01:00:59,166 --> 01:01:00,266
um so yeah

1668
01:01:00,266 --> 01:01:00,666
no it's

1669
01:01:00,666 --> 01:01:02,566
I've played them a lot I was brought up

1670
01:01:02,566 --> 01:01:03,866
brought up around the BBO

1671
01:01:03,866 --> 01:01:06,266
and played a lot of BBO golf around Denham

1672
01:01:06,266 --> 01:01:07,533
it's always been you know

1673
01:01:07,533 --> 01:01:11,066
a great course but like many sort of inland

1674
01:01:11,333 --> 01:01:14,166
um cult breed heritage courses over the years

1675
01:01:14,166 --> 01:01:15,300
they lost their way a little bit

1676
01:01:15,300 --> 01:01:16,566
in terms of bunker shaping

1677
01:01:16,566 --> 01:01:19,066
and general maintenance and over treeing

1678
01:01:19,066 --> 01:01:21,966
and Clive's done a great job of bringing them back

1679
01:01:21,966 --> 01:01:22,666
you know the horticulture

1680
01:01:22,666 --> 01:01:26,266
and Taylor work is most probably guided by braid

1681
01:01:26,266 --> 01:01:27,466
because they were you know

1682
01:01:27,466 --> 01:01:28,600
they're his his his

1683
01:01:28,600 --> 01:01:29,400
his um

1684
01:01:29,533 --> 01:01:31,200
construction partners on a great deal of

1685
01:01:31,200 --> 01:01:32,000
great deal of jobs

1686
01:01:32,000 --> 01:01:34,566
and that sometimes gets confused in the telling but um

1687
01:01:35,266 --> 01:01:36,966
that's not unusual um

1688
01:01:37,566 --> 01:01:38,333
but it's a yeah

1689
01:01:38,333 --> 01:01:38,666
it's a it's a

1690
01:01:38,666 --> 01:01:39,733
it's a it's a

1691
01:01:39,733 --> 01:01:45,566
it's a really good solid Home Counties golf course of

1692
01:01:45,733 --> 01:01:46,700
um you know

1693
01:01:46,700 --> 01:01:47,900
it challenges you you know

1694
01:01:47,900 --> 01:01:49,300
it asks you questions and they

1695
01:01:49,300 --> 01:01:52,533
you know Clyde has exposed the ravine hole and

1696
01:01:52,533 --> 01:01:53,200
you know it's it's

1697
01:01:53,200 --> 01:01:54,000
it's it's a

1698
01:01:54,000 --> 01:01:55,900
it's a super course um

1699
01:01:56,066 --> 01:01:58,266
and quite heavily that's one way yeah

1700
01:01:58,600 --> 01:02:01,366
I it really only has one why area weakness

1701
01:02:01,366 --> 01:02:04,633
it's that back area once you go through the

1702
01:02:04,800 --> 01:02:06,766
now I always play this uh

1703
01:02:06,766 --> 01:02:09,066
the only time I ever played is in the denim ball

1704
01:02:09,066 --> 01:02:13,800
which is a big piss up kind of match for some thing and

1705
01:02:14,066 --> 01:02:16,966
um I don't know which one's one or which one's 10

1706
01:02:16,966 --> 01:02:17,766
hahaha

1707
01:02:18,933 --> 01:02:20,533
I'm pretty sure I'm talking about

1708
01:02:20,533 --> 01:02:21,800
the middle of the back nine

1709
01:02:21,800 --> 01:02:22,933
is where it's weaknesses

1710
01:02:22,933 --> 01:02:24,966
but the rest of it is just great golf

1711
01:02:25,366 --> 01:02:26,366
well you'll be proud

1712
01:02:26,366 --> 01:02:27,533
you'll be proud to uh

1713
01:02:27,533 --> 01:02:29,100
to know yesterday uh

1714
01:02:29,166 --> 01:02:30,400
we were we were on site

1715
01:02:30,400 --> 01:02:32,000
so the ravine hole uh

1716
01:02:32,166 --> 01:02:33,400
so 10 11

1717
01:02:33,400 --> 01:02:35,366
12 13 is the ravine hole

1718
01:02:35,800 --> 01:02:37,300
I mean that tee shot is phenomenal

1719
01:02:37,300 --> 01:02:39,566
it's it's some of the best work on the golf course and

1720
01:02:39,566 --> 01:02:40,766
and actually they

1721
01:02:40,766 --> 01:02:42,900
they've reinstated the tee that was there

1722
01:02:43,666 --> 01:02:46,133
and all they did was cut down trees um

1723
01:02:46,133 --> 01:02:47,100
so the amount like the

1724
01:02:47,100 --> 01:02:49,200
some of the best work on that golf course was literally

1725
01:02:49,200 --> 01:02:51,966
just revealing what had been lost um

1726
01:02:51,966 --> 01:02:54,333
and then the next hole has been bunkered very cleverly

1727
01:02:54,333 --> 01:02:56,000
so there's new tees currently being built

1728
01:02:56,000 --> 01:02:58,300
and then there's two bunkers that are finished um

1729
01:02:58,766 --> 01:03:00,166
they still have to get the uh

1730
01:03:00,166 --> 01:03:02,833
the mowing line sorted out on that um

1731
01:03:02,866 --> 01:03:05,066
but I think those back to back fives

1732
01:03:05,933 --> 01:03:07,466
for a lot of people we're considered

1733
01:03:07,466 --> 01:03:09,100
maybe the weak part of the golf course

1734
01:03:09,266 --> 01:03:12,533
and actually I think now when you play it next uh James

1735
01:03:12,533 --> 01:03:13,966
you'll be very pleasantly surprised

1736
01:03:13,966 --> 01:03:15,133
I think those courses

1737
01:03:15,133 --> 01:03:20,066
or those two holes now elevate almost the weakest part

1738
01:03:20,066 --> 01:03:22,000
perceived weakest part of the golf course

1739
01:03:22,100 --> 01:03:23,933
to two of the most memorable

1740
01:03:23,933 --> 01:03:25,933
and if not strategic parts of it

1741
01:03:25,933 --> 01:03:27,966
there were two par fives depending on the wind

1742
01:03:28,133 --> 01:03:31,200
that bigger players can decide to go for um

1743
01:03:31,366 --> 01:03:34,300
but in in a lot of cases the greens run away from you

1744
01:03:34,500 --> 01:03:34,933
uh at denim

1745
01:03:34,933 --> 01:03:36,400
which is a really nice uh

1746
01:03:36,400 --> 01:03:38,800
feature 10 especially um

1747
01:03:39,000 --> 01:03:40,166
but um

1748
01:03:41,266 --> 01:03:43,666
I think denim is one of those ones where it

1749
01:03:43,666 --> 01:03:44,900
I'm proud it's going in

1750
01:03:44,900 --> 01:03:48,166
because they've been doing good work

1751
01:03:48,166 --> 01:03:50,400
the right work it's been slow and steady

1752
01:03:50,800 --> 01:03:52,266
uh trees have been coming out

1753
01:03:52,266 --> 01:03:53,700
quarters have been widened

1754
01:03:53,700 --> 01:03:55,633
the bunkers aren't copy and paste

1755
01:03:56,000 --> 01:03:59,166
um if you go to denim and Hadley Wood for another

1756
01:03:59,166 --> 01:04:00,566
I mean sounds like we're having a

1757
01:04:00,566 --> 01:04:02,366
a bit of a a Clyde Johnson

1758
01:04:02,366 --> 01:04:04,200
you know but the

1759
01:04:04,200 --> 01:04:04,966
the point is

1760
01:04:04,966 --> 01:04:08,433
he's one of the few architects at the minute um

1761
01:04:08,566 --> 01:04:12,666
that is actually doing work that's different from what

1762
01:04:12,666 --> 01:04:14,566
you see everywhere else

1763
01:04:14,600 --> 01:04:16,400
and I think that needs to be applauded

1764
01:04:16,400 --> 01:04:18,166
and that needs to be reflected in

1765
01:04:18,166 --> 01:04:20,700
in ranking so the clubs that have done good work uh

1766
01:04:20,800 --> 01:04:21,700
Hadley Wood

1767
01:04:21,866 --> 01:04:26,366
has a modest rise after doing exceptional work um

1768
01:04:26,533 --> 01:04:27,500
the bunkers there

1769
01:04:27,500 --> 01:04:30,233
if you wanna see Mackenzie style bunkers

1770
01:04:30,966 --> 01:04:31,800
um that

1771
01:04:31,800 --> 01:04:34,200
if you look at Pasatiempo or Cypress Point

1772
01:04:34,200 --> 01:04:35,333
or some of the old photographs

1773
01:04:35,333 --> 01:04:36,000
and you're like

1774
01:04:36,000 --> 01:04:38,100
that would be really cool to play golf course like that

1775
01:04:38,666 --> 01:04:40,533
uh Hadley Wood is a really good golf course to go to

1776
01:04:40,533 --> 01:04:41,500
this summer I think

1777
01:04:41,500 --> 01:04:42,866
what's interesting about that is that

1778
01:04:42,866 --> 01:04:45,300
Clyde's always very well researched and

1779
01:04:45,366 --> 01:04:45,933
you know obviously

1780
01:04:45,933 --> 01:04:48,266
uses as much photographic imagery as he can find

1781
01:04:48,266 --> 01:04:48,800
and you know

1782
01:04:48,800 --> 01:04:50,533
that's your your passion

1783
01:04:50,533 --> 01:04:53,366
Jasper is to find the historic documentation and

1784
01:04:53,366 --> 01:04:55,900
and mine too and I think it's

1785
01:04:55,900 --> 01:04:56,800
it's it's

1786
01:04:56,800 --> 01:04:58,500
the fact that they're Mackenzie bunkers

1787
01:04:58,500 --> 01:05:00,200
that are appropriate for the site

1788
01:05:00,400 --> 01:05:03,466
and appropriate for the chronology of his work

1789
01:05:03,566 --> 01:05:06,033
um and that type of bunkering

1790
01:05:06,300 --> 01:05:07,300
you know weren't necessary

1791
01:05:07,300 --> 01:05:10,800
wasn't necessarily the case on all his projects um

1792
01:05:10,800 --> 01:05:12,333
and sometimes you know

1793
01:05:12,333 --> 01:05:14,500
they get imposed on other projects

1794
01:05:14,500 --> 01:05:16,500
and I often get asked this as a

1795
01:05:16,500 --> 01:05:17,566
as a braid specialist

1796
01:05:17,566 --> 01:05:19,300
when I'm asked to consult with people

1797
01:05:19,300 --> 01:05:19,533
you know

1798
01:05:19,533 --> 01:05:21,533
what's a braid bunker and what's a Mackenzie bunker

1799
01:05:21,533 --> 01:05:24,300
and what's a a cult bunker and everything else

1800
01:05:24,300 --> 01:05:26,700
and it's what's important to the club

1801
01:05:26,700 --> 01:05:31,266
is what that particular architect did on your site

1802
01:05:31,400 --> 01:05:32,000
for you

1803
01:05:32,000 --> 01:05:34,900
because there was a reason that they chose that style

1804
01:05:35,000 --> 01:05:35,800
and that yeah

1805
01:05:35,800 --> 01:05:36,133
that that

1806
01:05:36,133 --> 01:05:37,133
that there's

1807
01:05:37,133 --> 01:05:40,000
often a practical reason why they use those as well

1808
01:05:40,300 --> 01:05:41,366
so um

1809
01:05:41,366 --> 01:05:43,333
and that's where Clyde's doing some really good work

1810
01:05:43,333 --> 01:05:45,766
and you're right this is not the Clyde Johnson Show

1811
01:05:45,766 --> 01:05:46,666
but it's um

1812
01:05:47,166 --> 01:05:50,800
far from it but when somebody does such really good

1813
01:05:50,800 --> 01:05:52,333
well researched work

1814
01:05:52,333 --> 01:05:54,366
we need to raise the profile of it

1815
01:05:54,366 --> 01:05:56,133
because that's the only way

1816
01:05:56,133 --> 01:05:58,400
we'll raise the profile and the quality of work

1817
01:05:58,400 --> 01:06:00,566
from everybody else absolutely

1818
01:06:00,566 --> 01:06:01,533
so that's great and then

1819
01:06:01,533 --> 01:06:04,366
I think you said the last new entrant was Dunston Brew

1820
01:06:04,933 --> 01:06:06,766
which um you know uh

1821
01:06:07,066 --> 01:06:10,200
I love particularly um and uh

1822
01:06:10,500 --> 01:06:11,333
you know is a

1823
01:06:11,333 --> 01:06:13,166
is a braid course that was

1824
01:06:13,166 --> 01:06:15,933
his design was implemented over a number of years

1825
01:06:15,933 --> 01:06:17,266
which is really quite interesting

1826
01:06:17,266 --> 01:06:19,100
it is over several decades

1827
01:06:19,100 --> 01:06:20,900
where he constantly added holes

1828
01:06:20,900 --> 01:06:24,866
it went from 6 to 12 to 14 at one point and then

1829
01:06:24,866 --> 01:06:26,600
then 18 um

1830
01:06:26,766 --> 01:06:30,566
and again great value um North East of England

1831
01:06:30,600 --> 01:06:31,966
some wonderful golf up there

1832
01:06:31,966 --> 01:06:34,266
obviously with Goswick and you know

1833
01:06:34,266 --> 01:06:35,266
Bamburgh Castle as well

1834
01:06:35,266 --> 01:06:37,900
is a great sporting course as well

1835
01:06:38,133 --> 01:06:39,200
and Braids Lost

1836
01:06:39,200 --> 01:06:40,700
Holy Island on Lindisfarne

1837
01:06:40,700 --> 01:06:42,900
is well worth a walk out to go and see dunes

1838
01:06:42,900 --> 01:06:43,333
if you want

1839
01:06:43,333 --> 01:06:47,100
undiscovered golf courses at lost golf courses um

1840
01:06:47,200 --> 01:06:48,000
but Dunster

1841
01:06:48,000 --> 01:06:51,100
they've done a great job and it's such a great organic

1842
01:06:51,500 --> 01:06:56,300
um local project where they embrace non golfers

1843
01:06:56,300 --> 01:06:56,933
you know as I want

1844
01:06:56,933 --> 01:06:57,766
the clubhouse is

1845
01:06:57,766 --> 01:07:00,833
effectively a tee shop for walkers to the beach um

1846
01:07:01,066 --> 01:07:03,000
it's got a really um

1847
01:07:03,400 --> 01:07:07,700
great feel to it and they've done wonderful work there

1848
01:07:08,266 --> 01:07:09,533
and and yeah

1849
01:07:09,533 --> 01:07:12,066
it's it's it's it's it's as you say Jasper

1850
01:07:12,066 --> 01:07:13,033
it's it's a

1851
01:07:13,066 --> 01:07:16,266
it's a joy to bring those types of courses

1852
01:07:16,366 --> 01:07:20,200
like an Apple B like a C scale to people's attention

1853
01:07:20,400 --> 01:07:24,466
and yeah and they're there not for that reason

1854
01:07:24,466 --> 01:07:25,633
they're there by right

1855
01:07:25,666 --> 01:07:27,500
they're there because they've earned their right

1856
01:07:27,500 --> 01:07:30,066
and there and the appreciation of them is

1857
01:07:30,066 --> 01:07:32,066
is gone up so um

1858
01:07:32,533 --> 01:07:34,533
you know there'll be people people will drop out

1859
01:07:34,533 --> 01:07:35,566
people will um

1860
01:07:35,566 --> 01:07:36,166
you know will

1861
01:07:36,166 --> 01:07:38,800
will be back in the candidates list and uh

1862
01:07:38,800 --> 01:07:41,400
that doesn't mean that they're bad golf courses quite

1863
01:07:41,400 --> 01:07:43,933
quite the opposite it just means that people have

1864
01:07:43,933 --> 01:07:45,466
had an appreciation of something else

1865
01:07:45,466 --> 01:07:49,133
and they may reappreciate your club again in the future

1866
01:07:49,133 --> 01:07:50,866
and in due course so yeah

1867
01:07:50,866 --> 01:07:51,666
yeah exactly

1868
01:07:51,700 --> 01:07:53,266
here's here's one for you

1869
01:07:53,333 --> 01:07:54,766
so I just looked at Dunston Abbey

1870
01:07:55,166 --> 01:07:56,300
so this uh

1871
01:07:56,300 --> 01:07:59,766
this summer if you wanna pay for your green fee

1872
01:07:59,933 --> 01:08:02,733
uh this summer peak season £55 uh

1873
01:08:02,733 --> 01:08:04,600
if you play a weekday so Monday to Friday

1874
01:08:04,600 --> 01:08:08,300
£55 um for an extra tenner

1875
01:08:08,300 --> 01:08:09,433
for an extra tenner

1876
01:08:09,466 --> 01:08:12,466
you get a coffee and bacon roll on arrival

1877
01:08:12,600 --> 01:08:14,066
you get your 18 holes

1878
01:08:14,300 --> 01:08:16,366
and then you either get a freshly made pizza

1879
01:08:16,366 --> 01:08:20,733
or a burger and chips so for £65

1880
01:08:20,733 --> 01:08:23,466
you can play one of England's top 100 courses

1881
01:08:23,533 --> 01:08:26,200
have breakfast and have lunch um

1882
01:08:27,133 --> 01:08:30,333
all for all for uh £65 so I mean

1883
01:08:30,333 --> 01:08:30,800
and that

1884
01:08:30,800 --> 01:08:32,766
that's I think what we're trying to celebrate here

1885
01:08:32,766 --> 01:08:34,066
so just some technical points

1886
01:08:34,066 --> 01:08:37,800
perhaps with the panel is we've structurally

1887
01:08:37,800 --> 01:08:40,000
we've not only added a lot more input

1888
01:08:40,066 --> 01:08:40,866
uh

1889
01:08:40,966 --> 01:08:43,166
close to 80 people have had input on the

1890
01:08:43,166 --> 01:08:45,000
the English hundred uh

1891
01:08:45,000 --> 01:08:47,266
in addition to that we've moved away from golf unions

1892
01:08:47,300 --> 01:08:49,066
now the reason for that is that

1893
01:08:49,066 --> 01:08:51,033
when we look at the data across the website

1894
01:08:51,133 --> 01:08:56,433
which is about 750,000 people a month um

1895
01:08:56,933 --> 01:08:59,000
when we look at those individuals

1896
01:08:59,000 --> 01:09:01,100
what we see is that they're planning golf trips

1897
01:09:01,300 --> 01:09:02,900
and predominantly Americans

1898
01:09:02,933 --> 01:09:05,066
a lot of the traffic comes from America

1899
01:09:05,266 --> 01:09:07,766
so Americans would not be familiar with uh

1900
01:09:08,000 --> 01:09:10,766
most geographic locations in England uh

1901
01:09:10,766 --> 01:09:13,400
and even less familiar with the golf unions

1902
01:09:13,400 --> 01:09:15,600
and the intricacies of golf unions

1903
01:09:16,066 --> 01:09:19,000
uh so a good example is Middlesex

1904
01:09:19,300 --> 01:09:22,366
so Middlesex is a historic uh

1905
01:09:22,566 --> 01:09:25,433
county and therefore had a golf union

1906
01:09:25,466 --> 01:09:26,566
and it was quite a weird shape

1907
01:09:26,566 --> 01:09:29,000
it kinda started like in Oxfordshire

1908
01:09:29,000 --> 01:09:30,500
and kinda went down through Buckinghamshire

1909
01:09:30,500 --> 01:09:32,233
and then into a sliver of London

1910
01:09:32,466 --> 01:09:34,566
and some clubs that were in various counties

1911
01:09:34,566 --> 01:09:36,000
were kinda put into it to balance it

1912
01:09:36,000 --> 01:09:39,066
and look it we

1913
01:09:39,066 --> 01:09:40,666
we've gone away from that

1914
01:09:40,666 --> 01:09:44,000
and we've gone to strictly geographic locations

1915
01:09:44,500 --> 01:09:46,933
so in the

1916
01:09:46,933 --> 01:09:50,400
in the actual breakdown of it we have the uh Southeast

1917
01:09:50,400 --> 01:09:52,100
Southwest Greater London

1918
01:09:52,100 --> 01:09:54,700
East Anglia East Midlands West Midlands

1919
01:09:54,966 --> 01:09:57,800
Northeast Northwest and Yorkshire I think are the nine

1920
01:09:57,800 --> 01:09:59,066
I think I've got them all

1921
01:10:00,600 --> 01:10:02,466
and then within each of those regions

1922
01:10:02,466 --> 01:10:06,066
we've actually made more rankings

1923
01:10:06,066 --> 01:10:10,166
so for example in the northwest now we have Cheshire

1924
01:10:10,166 --> 01:10:10,666
Cumbria

1925
01:10:10,666 --> 01:10:14,700
Lancashire and Merseyside along with Greater Manchester

1926
01:10:14,900 --> 01:10:17,766
so it's allowed us to compare courses

1927
01:10:17,766 --> 01:10:20,200
that were previously not compared with one another

1928
01:10:20,400 --> 01:10:22,866
and that's also created its own challenges

1929
01:10:22,866 --> 01:10:24,000
because previously

1930
01:10:24,066 --> 01:10:27,133
we had panels that had very definite lines

1931
01:10:27,133 --> 01:10:28,700
I guess you could say and now

1932
01:10:28,700 --> 01:10:30,500
we are asking panels to compare courses

1933
01:10:30,500 --> 01:10:31,133
against each other

1934
01:10:31,133 --> 01:10:33,233
that previously no one had ever done

1935
01:10:33,500 --> 01:10:34,766
so there

1936
01:10:34,766 --> 01:10:36,733
there has been some movement within the counties

1937
01:10:36,733 --> 01:10:39,833
within the regions and within the top 100 uh

1938
01:10:39,900 --> 01:10:42,966
for a lot of those types of reasons

1939
01:10:43,466 --> 01:10:45,666
and I think what we'll probably do is

1940
01:10:45,666 --> 01:10:46,700
similar to what we've done

1941
01:10:46,700 --> 01:10:48,366
in Scotland

1942
01:10:48,366 --> 01:10:49,800
because it was

1943
01:10:49,800 --> 01:10:52,766
such a dramatic change across the rankings

1944
01:10:53,333 --> 01:10:55,666
uh we didn't think that it would necessarily be fair

1945
01:10:55,666 --> 01:11:01,166
on this release to necessarily show how people how how

1946
01:11:01,166 --> 01:11:02,466
how much some courses

1947
01:11:03,066 --> 01:11:05,700
rose and how much other courses fell

1948
01:11:05,900 --> 01:11:09,100
simply because the the constructs of the

1949
01:11:09,100 --> 01:11:09,966
the panel

1950
01:11:10,033 --> 01:11:12,233
and the structure of it itself had been changed

1951
01:11:12,533 --> 01:11:15,566
so you could argue that from a England point of view

1952
01:11:15,566 --> 01:11:17,500
you could look at that but still

1953
01:11:17,533 --> 01:11:19,933
there's some interesting things that happen on panels

1954
01:11:19,933 --> 01:11:23,800
when you align them across world region country

1955
01:11:24,366 --> 01:11:28,166
sub region county that if it moves up in one county

1956
01:11:28,166 --> 01:11:29,700
then it bumps up into a region

1957
01:11:29,700 --> 01:11:31,333
and there's almost like a trickle down

1958
01:11:31,333 --> 01:11:34,100
or a push up effect um

1959
01:11:34,133 --> 01:11:35,700
and so because of that we thought

1960
01:11:35,700 --> 01:11:36,700
we're just gonna put it out

1961
01:11:36,700 --> 01:11:39,800
we're gonna let it sit and we're gonna get people to to

1962
01:11:39,800 --> 01:11:42,300
to just take it as it is without clubs

1963
01:11:42,300 --> 01:11:44,533
being too worried about where they were previously

1964
01:11:44,533 --> 01:11:46,766
and where they are now um

1965
01:11:46,766 --> 01:11:47,933
so hopefully

1966
01:11:47,933 --> 01:11:50,666
hopefully that explains a little bit of the movement

1967
01:11:50,900 --> 01:11:53,500
and I think we said this before Simon and James

1968
01:11:53,500 --> 01:11:55,766
when we were all speaking about it before we popped on

1969
01:11:56,000 --> 01:11:59,266
is that if you've kind of moved up five or down five

1970
01:11:59,333 --> 01:12:02,400
that's not an indictment on on you

1971
01:12:02,400 --> 01:12:04,800
you're kind of maybe found your spot within your tier

1972
01:12:04,933 --> 01:12:06,933
if that makes sense there's some got

1973
01:12:06,933 --> 01:12:08,300
there's a lot of movement

1974
01:12:08,500 --> 01:12:11,900
a lot of changes because things have moved

1975
01:12:11,966 --> 01:12:14,766
in terms of the number of people contributing

1976
01:12:14,766 --> 01:12:17,066
in terms of the quality of the uh

1977
01:12:17,066 --> 01:12:20,700
minds that are contributing and it's quite exciting

1978
01:12:20,700 --> 01:12:22,566
I have to admit I'm finding it very exciting

1979
01:12:22,566 --> 01:12:24,200
because there's golf courses that I love

1980
01:12:24,200 --> 01:12:26,000
that are getting appreciated now

1981
01:12:26,566 --> 01:12:29,466
and not because of me pushing them up

1982
01:12:29,466 --> 01:12:32,066
but because actually when you get in

1983
01:12:32,866 --> 01:12:33,600
100

1984
01:12:33,600 --> 01:12:36,266
new people that really know what they're talking about

1985
01:12:36,266 --> 01:12:37,433
you tend to find

1986
01:12:37,933 --> 01:12:40,733
you do get a better understanding of where things lie

1987
01:12:40,733 --> 01:12:43,400
and where things sit it's really interesting

1988
01:12:43,900 --> 01:12:46,200
yeah and there is there is some challenge in in

1989
01:12:46,200 --> 01:12:47,800
in debate and

1990
01:12:47,900 --> 01:12:49,700
and there always will be and that's part of the

1991
01:12:49,700 --> 01:12:52,700
the strength of the list but when you grow the pool

1992
01:12:53,533 --> 01:12:57,200
and hopefully the quality of the panelists

1993
01:12:57,200 --> 01:12:59,500
and we've had some wonderful panelists that

1994
01:12:59,933 --> 01:13:01,100
have been here for a number of years

1995
01:13:01,100 --> 01:13:02,733
we've had some come some go

1996
01:13:02,733 --> 01:13:03,533
some join

1997
01:13:04,200 --> 01:13:04,666
you know

1998
01:13:04,666 --> 01:13:07,900
people's appreciations and people's own biases are

1999
01:13:07,900 --> 01:13:09,600
are different um

2000
01:13:09,866 --> 01:13:11,733
this certainly is not my list

2001
01:13:11,733 --> 01:13:12,533
this is you know

2002
01:13:12,533 --> 01:13:14,000
I'm I may be lead whatever

2003
01:13:14,000 --> 01:13:14,533
but you know

2004
01:13:14,533 --> 01:13:19,233
arithmetically I'm such a small part of the ranking um

2005
01:13:19,566 --> 01:13:23,266
you know my job is just to really help

2006
01:13:23,500 --> 01:13:25,766
panellists come to their own conclusions

2007
01:13:25,966 --> 01:13:27,566
and come to their own conclusions

2008
01:13:27,566 --> 01:13:29,033
in line with our guidance

2009
01:13:29,700 --> 01:13:30,800
and you know

2010
01:13:30,800 --> 01:13:33,866
I obviously have a personal interest in

2011
01:13:33,866 --> 01:13:35,566
in raising their knowledge

2012
01:13:35,566 --> 01:13:38,233
and their appreciation of good architecture

2013
01:13:38,266 --> 01:13:39,533
and hopefully that comes through

2014
01:13:39,533 --> 01:13:40,766
and I think it has come through

2015
01:13:40,766 --> 01:13:43,566
but not in any directed uh

2016
01:13:43,566 --> 01:13:45,600
or forced manner um

2017
01:13:45,733 --> 01:13:47,066
which is important you know

2018
01:13:47,066 --> 01:13:49,666
I haven't I haven't played all the hundred by

2019
01:13:49,666 --> 01:13:51,766
you know admission I don't think that's necessary

2020
01:13:51,766 --> 01:13:53,166
for me to have played all the hundred

2021
01:13:53,166 --> 01:13:54,533
I want to play all the hundred

2022
01:13:54,533 --> 01:13:56,266
and I'm looking forward to visiting the

2023
01:13:56,266 --> 01:13:58,600
the small number that I haven't played um

2024
01:13:58,966 --> 01:14:00,633
including Appleby um

2025
01:14:00,800 --> 01:14:02,166
and um

2026
01:14:02,500 --> 01:14:03,000
you know I

2027
01:14:03,000 --> 01:14:06,433
I just asked the clubs to be very um

2028
01:14:07,766 --> 01:14:10,400
open and understand that um

2029
01:14:10,566 --> 01:14:14,000
these things are never set in stone and um

2030
01:14:14,133 --> 01:14:19,766
the more ranking people we can get to see you uh

2031
01:14:19,766 --> 01:14:20,466
the better

2032
01:14:20,466 --> 01:14:23,833
the likelihood is that you will find your place um

2033
01:14:24,066 --> 01:14:26,333
and everybody is quietly you know

2034
01:14:26,333 --> 01:14:27,200
quite rightly

2035
01:14:27,200 --> 01:14:31,233
proud about their club and where they should be um

2036
01:14:33,400 --> 01:14:36,700
and that should always be the case

2037
01:14:36,700 --> 01:14:39,566
and we would want people to make constant improvement

2038
01:14:39,566 --> 01:14:41,066
and highlighting what they

2039
01:14:41,100 --> 01:14:42,066
what they do

2040
01:14:42,766 --> 01:14:44,533
but be custodians of your course

2041
01:14:44,533 --> 01:14:46,933
and be custodians to what's pure

2042
01:14:46,933 --> 01:14:49,600
and special and unique about your course

2043
01:14:50,366 --> 01:14:54,900
and what we're seeing in this list is those that have

2044
01:14:54,900 --> 01:14:56,300
and not necessarily

2045
01:14:56,300 --> 01:14:57,933
those that have gone for the shiny and new

2046
01:14:57,933 --> 01:14:59,666
but those that have actually understand

2047
01:14:59,666 --> 01:15:01,000
really what they're about

2048
01:15:01,000 --> 01:15:04,166
architecturally and playing conditions wise um

2049
01:15:04,366 --> 01:15:06,766
not agronomy wise in terms of

2050
01:15:06,766 --> 01:15:07,000
you know

2051
01:15:07,000 --> 01:15:08,866
we don't rate people on the speed of their greens

2052
01:15:08,866 --> 01:15:09,866
and all that sort of stuff

2053
01:15:09,866 --> 01:15:12,200
but in terms of being true to their topography

2054
01:15:12,200 --> 01:15:16,200
and their their geographic position and their style

2055
01:15:16,933 --> 01:15:19,800
they've benefited in the list and I think that will um

2056
01:15:19,800 --> 01:15:21,333
hopefully continue uh

2057
01:15:21,333 --> 01:15:23,366
over time and um

2058
01:15:23,566 --> 01:15:26,766
we would welcome brand new entrance with a

2059
01:15:26,766 --> 01:15:27,600
with a with

2060
01:15:27,600 --> 01:15:30,066
with with open arms um

2061
01:15:30,500 --> 01:15:32,633
uh in terms of from the candidate list

2062
01:15:32,666 --> 01:15:34,866
and we would also hope that um

2063
01:15:35,100 --> 01:15:38,466
you know those that are the highest quality

2064
01:15:38,500 --> 01:15:42,966
modern courses continue to be praised and uh

2065
01:15:43,266 --> 01:15:43,966
included in in

2066
01:15:43,966 --> 01:15:45,500
in the list which they will

2067
01:15:45,500 --> 01:15:48,433
but they'll find they'll find their level um

2068
01:15:48,466 --> 01:15:49,433
and um

2069
01:15:49,800 --> 01:15:51,700
you know the best are still there

2070
01:15:51,700 --> 01:15:52,766
they're still on the list

2071
01:15:52,766 --> 01:15:54,933
they've you know they may have moved within the list

2072
01:15:54,933 --> 01:15:58,800
but you know any course that's within the top 101

2073
01:15:58,800 --> 01:15:59,933
50 200

2074
01:15:59,933 --> 01:16:03,366
of any ranking in England is a darn good golf course

2075
01:16:03,366 --> 01:16:04,633
and is well worth playing

2076
01:16:04,966 --> 01:16:07,866
absolutely there was so just before we finish up

2077
01:16:07,866 --> 01:16:11,666
there's one thing I you gave us a start about pricing

2078
01:16:11,666 --> 01:16:15,100
comparatively to rises or uh drops

2079
01:16:15,333 --> 01:16:16,800
one thing I would like to say

2080
01:16:16,800 --> 01:16:20,366
a caveat to that is for people that don't know um

2081
01:16:20,366 --> 01:16:21,266
a lot of the golf

2082
01:16:21,266 --> 01:16:23,000
courses are very kind to our panelists

2083
01:16:23,000 --> 01:16:24,666
and offer a courtesy of the course

2084
01:16:24,666 --> 01:16:25,700
so they'd actually

2085
01:16:25,700 --> 01:16:28,500
wouldn't know which price point they're playing at

2086
01:16:28,500 --> 01:16:30,500
for a lot of them um

2087
01:16:30,666 --> 01:16:32,600
so this isn't

2088
01:16:32,700 --> 01:16:36,366
that's not conscientious of value being added into the

2089
01:16:36,933 --> 01:16:37,766
uh the rankings

2090
01:16:37,766 --> 01:16:40,000
I just wanted to caveat that uh statement

2091
01:16:40,000 --> 01:16:41,600
no that's a that's a fair point

2092
01:16:41,600 --> 01:16:42,466
but I think you know

2093
01:16:42,466 --> 01:16:44,933
inevitably people go and look on the website and and

2094
01:16:44,933 --> 01:16:47,066
you know before they go and um

2095
01:16:47,100 --> 01:16:50,066
we don't we don't demand or

2096
01:16:50,066 --> 01:16:52,200
or request a courtesy per se

2097
01:16:52,200 --> 01:16:54,200
but the clubs generally are very uh

2098
01:16:54,200 --> 01:16:57,000
very generous and we really appreciate that

2099
01:16:57,000 --> 01:16:58,266
and part of the reason for that is

2100
01:16:58,266 --> 01:16:59,833
we don't want to be perceived as

2101
01:17:00,266 --> 01:17:02,466
people can't buy rankings on top 100

2102
01:17:02,466 --> 01:17:03,366
they you know

2103
01:17:03,366 --> 01:17:05,100
that the editorial division

2104
01:17:05,100 --> 01:17:06,266
and when clubs are involved

2105
01:17:06,266 --> 01:17:08,566
and we like clubs to be involved on

2106
01:17:08,566 --> 01:17:09,933
the editorial side of the business

2107
01:17:09,933 --> 01:17:11,166
and that's that's all fine

2108
01:17:11,166 --> 01:17:12,566
but you know my

2109
01:17:12,566 --> 01:17:15,366
part of my job to be here is to be

2110
01:17:15,366 --> 01:17:18,566
you know an independent arbiter of uh

2111
01:17:18,600 --> 01:17:18,800
of of

2112
01:17:18,800 --> 01:17:21,666
of these things and to separate um

2113
01:17:22,133 --> 01:17:23,966
you know the clumsy expression is church and state

2114
01:17:23,966 --> 01:17:26,266
and I come from a financial market um

2115
01:17:26,333 --> 01:17:27,333
background where

2116
01:17:27,333 --> 01:17:29,733
it's really important that the analysts in banking

2117
01:17:29,733 --> 01:17:32,466
are separated from the analysts in equity research

2118
01:17:32,466 --> 01:17:34,600
because you don't want those biases

2119
01:17:34,600 --> 01:17:37,566
which caused problems back in the 1980s in various

2120
01:17:37,966 --> 01:17:39,266
and in dot com crashes

2121
01:17:39,266 --> 01:17:41,800
and various other insider trading type stuff

2122
01:17:41,800 --> 01:17:42,900
so um

2123
01:17:42,900 --> 01:17:44,666
it's very important that you separate those

2124
01:17:44,666 --> 01:17:47,733
and that there is the conflict of interest is removed

2125
01:17:47,733 --> 01:17:48,566
and um

2126
01:17:48,566 --> 01:17:49,900
and that's you know

2127
01:17:50,100 --> 01:17:52,400
why part of the reason why it's good that

2128
01:17:52,400 --> 01:17:54,500
you know as a volunteer in my spare time

2129
01:17:54,500 --> 01:17:56,966
I'm quite happy to be lead and

2130
01:17:57,000 --> 01:17:57,200
you know

2131
01:17:57,200 --> 01:17:59,700
I hope there's a bit of grey hair and gravitas that can

2132
01:17:59,700 --> 01:18:03,033
ensure that that that doesn't happen and um

2133
01:18:03,066 --> 01:18:05,366
that the the rankings are

2134
01:18:05,366 --> 01:18:09,066
are pure for it and hopefully can be accepted by the

2135
01:18:09,266 --> 01:18:11,700
users of the website more happily

2136
01:18:11,700 --> 01:18:14,300
Simon I know that Jasper and I have noticed it

2137
01:18:14,300 --> 01:18:17,866
but we've talked about a few times in private

2138
01:18:17,866 --> 01:18:19,833
where it's like oh no

2139
01:18:20,400 --> 01:18:21,733
we these clubs are

2140
01:18:21,733 --> 01:18:23,333
Jasper has to deal with these clubs

2141
01:18:23,333 --> 01:18:25,200
because they're on an editorial role

2142
01:18:25,200 --> 01:18:26,166
and it's like

2143
01:18:26,333 --> 01:18:28,466
they're doing stuff with editorial and it's like

2144
01:18:28,466 --> 01:18:30,300
oh no just watch them drop

2145
01:18:30,300 --> 01:18:32,933
ha ha ha ha how am I gonna explain this one

2146
01:18:32,933 --> 01:18:35,166
ha ha ha ha ha well and I think that I mean

2147
01:18:35,166 --> 01:18:36,600
that's a it's a very fair point

2148
01:18:36,600 --> 01:18:38,100
and maybe a public service announcement

2149
01:18:38,100 --> 01:18:39,200
or if we have any golf clubs

2150
01:18:39,200 --> 01:18:42,300
or managers or committee members that are listening um

2151
01:18:42,300 --> 01:18:46,466
as was mentioned we we make it very clear uh

2152
01:18:46,566 --> 01:18:49,400
whenever we deal whenever I deal with any clubs uh

2153
01:18:49,400 --> 01:18:53,966
that even though um we deal with the ranking side

2154
01:18:53,966 --> 01:18:57,400
maybe the the content side of things that

2155
01:18:58,466 --> 01:19:00,833
spend with Top 100 won't affect the rankings

2156
01:19:01,366 --> 01:19:03,100
in all of our marketing collateral

2157
01:19:03,266 --> 01:19:04,166
whether that's the

2158
01:19:04,166 --> 01:19:06,200
the rate sheets or emails that go out

2159
01:19:06,300 --> 01:19:08,766
there's always something in print that says that

2160
01:19:08,766 --> 01:19:10,166
this will not uh

2161
01:19:10,166 --> 01:19:12,700
influence so you can't buy uh

2162
01:19:12,700 --> 01:19:15,366
you can't inflate yours or suppress your neighbor's

2163
01:19:15,366 --> 01:19:17,166
haha golf courses um

2164
01:19:17,166 --> 01:19:19,866
so we make that very very clear across the board uh

2165
01:19:19,866 --> 01:19:20,900
the other thing too

2166
01:19:20,900 --> 01:19:22,766
we've we've had a couple of issues uh

2167
01:19:22,766 --> 01:19:24,533
that we've had to deal with recently stateside

2168
01:19:24,533 --> 01:19:25,333
even

2169
01:19:25,600 --> 01:19:30,100
where individuals have claimed to be top 100 panelists

2170
01:19:30,466 --> 01:19:32,400
um there's various ways and means that

2171
01:19:32,400 --> 01:19:34,766
various companies try to get around this uh

2172
01:19:34,766 --> 01:19:38,500
or try to prevent this from happening at top 100

2173
01:19:38,500 --> 01:19:40,200
what we've done um

2174
01:19:40,300 --> 01:19:43,166
we've thought about having um

2175
01:19:43,933 --> 01:19:47,100
ID cards but once an ID card is issued uh

2176
01:19:47,100 --> 01:19:48,333
it's really hard to get it back

2177
01:19:48,333 --> 01:19:50,000
especially if someone steps away from it

2178
01:19:50,000 --> 01:19:52,400
so those can continue to be used um

2179
01:19:52,400 --> 01:19:54,400
so what we always ask is that

2180
01:19:54,400 --> 01:19:58,233
if anyone ever reaches out to a club to request play

2181
01:19:58,600 --> 01:20:00,800
um that there's a few things that should happen

2182
01:20:00,800 --> 01:20:03,300
so one is they should identify who they are

2183
01:20:03,400 --> 01:20:05,733
they should c c in um

2184
01:20:05,733 --> 01:20:09,300
a defined inbox for top 100 golf courses

2185
01:20:09,400 --> 01:20:11,666
so there should always be someone on that email thread

2186
01:20:11,800 --> 01:20:13,300
that has a legitimate top 100

2187
01:20:13,300 --> 01:20:15,666
golf courses.com email address

2188
01:20:16,366 --> 01:20:17,800
and if there are any queries

2189
01:20:18,066 --> 01:20:19,866
they can feel free to get in touch

2190
01:20:20,266 --> 01:20:21,800
and before they open their doors

2191
01:20:21,800 --> 01:20:24,333
or let people through the gate uh

2192
01:20:24,333 --> 01:20:26,766
they can check with us and we invite clubs to do that

2193
01:20:26,766 --> 01:20:30,033
we we actually encourage them to um

2194
01:20:30,066 --> 01:20:31,700
and then the last thing to mention is

2195
01:20:31,700 --> 01:20:33,033
what you've mentioned Simon

2196
01:20:33,100 --> 01:20:35,466
is that in all of the correspondence with the clubs

2197
01:20:35,466 --> 01:20:37,300
our panelists always uh

2198
01:20:37,500 --> 01:20:41,100
make it known that we're more than happy to cover uh

2199
01:20:41,100 --> 01:20:43,266
any cost associated with any visit

2200
01:20:43,566 --> 01:20:46,700
uh so top 100 doesn't pay for their panel visits uh

2201
01:20:46,700 --> 01:20:48,433
or for their panelists uh

2202
01:20:49,066 --> 01:20:51,900
panelists don't pay to be top 100 panelists

2203
01:20:52,300 --> 01:20:52,766
uh again

2204
01:20:52,766 --> 01:20:54,400
there's other panels out there that do

2205
01:20:54,400 --> 01:20:55,766
one or both of those things

2206
01:20:55,766 --> 01:20:58,033
depending on who you are um

2207
01:20:58,900 --> 01:21:00,966
uh and we would never ever

2208
01:21:01,200 --> 01:21:02,900
uh expect

2209
01:21:02,900 --> 01:21:07,633
demand or even hint at getting any type of um

2210
01:21:08,300 --> 01:21:10,100
we'd say uh

2211
01:21:10,366 --> 01:21:12,900
hospitality in the form of uh

2212
01:21:12,900 --> 01:21:14,600
food or beverage in fact

2213
01:21:14,600 --> 01:21:15,533
in the

2214
01:21:15,533 --> 01:21:17,733
the correspondence that does go out to the panelist

2215
01:21:17,733 --> 01:21:20,900
we actually encourage them to have modest spends

2216
01:21:21,266 --> 01:21:25,000
uh if applicable in pro shop and or clubhouse um

2217
01:21:25,000 --> 01:21:27,066
just to show our gratitude and appreciation

2218
01:21:27,300 --> 01:21:31,000
so we we hope that uh

2219
01:21:31,300 --> 01:21:33,700
all of our panelists bar none uh

2220
01:21:33,700 --> 01:21:35,266
would uphold those standards

2221
01:21:35,533 --> 01:21:37,300
um and if they don't well

2222
01:21:37,300 --> 01:21:38,366
they won't be panelist for

2223
01:21:38,366 --> 01:21:39,966
for long as soon as we find out about it

2224
01:21:39,966 --> 01:21:41,633
that's not a threat it is a promise

2225
01:21:41,866 --> 01:21:44,533
um but we find out we find that that's a

2226
01:21:44,533 --> 01:21:46,300
the best way to keep everybody honest

2227
01:21:46,666 --> 01:21:49,033
uh hopefully it's reassurance for the industry

2228
01:21:49,100 --> 01:21:49,333
uh

2229
01:21:49,333 --> 01:21:52,733
for the committees for the management of clubs and uh

2230
01:21:52,733 --> 01:21:54,066
a shot across the bow

2231
01:21:54,066 --> 01:21:56,900
of any of those individuals that are still pretending

2232
01:21:57,166 --> 01:21:59,400
uh to be associated with Top 100 but aren't

2233
01:21:59,400 --> 01:22:02,000
um slowly we are reading them out uh

2234
01:22:02,000 --> 01:22:03,566
and we've done a good job of doing that

2235
01:22:03,566 --> 01:22:05,900
we still know that there are some bad actors out there

2236
01:22:06,100 --> 01:22:07,966
uh we will catch up with you

2237
01:22:07,966 --> 01:22:09,500
well Jasper um

2238
01:22:09,500 --> 01:22:11,666
I know that there's been a lot of talk at top 100

2239
01:22:11,666 --> 01:22:12,700
recently that uh

2240
01:22:12,866 --> 01:22:14,266
echoes what we're talking about

2241
01:22:14,266 --> 01:22:15,200
because we've been discussing

2242
01:22:15,200 --> 01:22:17,666
a lot of different things that are going on at top 100

2243
01:22:17,733 --> 01:22:21,266
I won't go into details but it also reflects

2244
01:22:21,800 --> 01:22:24,366
negatively on the people that are the face of Top 100

2245
01:22:24,366 --> 01:22:28,533
which is you myself and the others like Simon

2246
01:22:28,533 --> 01:22:30,100
and that's the last thing we want to do

2247
01:22:30,100 --> 01:22:32,633
and it reflects negatively on the panelist

2248
01:22:32,766 --> 01:22:36,266
so the last thing we want to do is have uh

2249
01:22:36,266 --> 01:22:38,666
anything but the utmost respect for the clubs

2250
01:22:38,666 --> 01:22:40,600
because at the end of the day

2251
01:22:40,600 --> 01:22:42,166
we can't do it without them

2252
01:22:42,600 --> 01:22:43,433
we uh

2253
01:22:43,533 --> 01:22:45,266
we work with the clubs to

2254
01:22:45,266 --> 01:22:50,900
and completely in respect of what they stand for

2255
01:22:50,900 --> 01:22:52,666
and what they are and what golf is

2256
01:22:52,666 --> 01:22:55,066
it's not bought it's not sold

2257
01:22:55,066 --> 01:22:56,066
it's not um

2258
01:22:56,600 --> 01:22:59,100
it's respected it's people who love the game

2259
01:22:59,100 --> 01:23:00,200
it's so this

2260
01:23:00,200 --> 01:23:01,666
this top 100 wouldn't exist

2261
01:23:01,666 --> 01:23:03,500
without the passionate people that

2262
01:23:04,466 --> 01:23:05,666
that well

2263
01:23:05,966 --> 01:23:09,066
offer their free time to be able to do what we do

2264
01:23:09,766 --> 01:23:13,733
and so that's the last thing we wanna do

2265
01:23:13,733 --> 01:23:15,800
is piss off anyone within that group

2266
01:23:16,100 --> 01:23:17,066
let's be honest

2267
01:23:17,900 --> 01:23:19,900
absolutely right OK

2268
01:23:20,200 --> 01:23:21,166
I think um

2269
01:23:21,166 --> 01:23:23,100
an hour and a half is probably good enough for England

2270
01:23:23,100 --> 01:23:24,666
as a Scotsman that's an hour and a half

2271
01:23:24,666 --> 01:23:25,766
longer than I would like to talk

2272
01:23:25,766 --> 01:23:28,033
you'll never get back ha ha ha

2273
01:23:28,400 --> 01:23:29,400
I feel uh

2274
01:23:29,733 --> 01:23:32,000
feel we bit dirty I might have to go have a shower

2275
01:23:32,133 --> 01:23:34,600
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

2276
01:23:35,200 --> 01:23:36,166
I understand more I

2277
01:23:36,166 --> 01:23:37,466
I understand it I

2278
01:23:37,466 --> 01:23:37,866
I you know

2279
01:23:37,866 --> 01:23:39,733
I did my undergrad in Scotland

2280
01:23:39,733 --> 01:23:41,066
so yeah I always use

2281
01:23:41,066 --> 01:23:43,700
I always say my educated half is Scottish um

2282
01:23:43,766 --> 01:23:45,533
so I understand where you're coming from James

2283
01:23:45,533 --> 01:23:47,000
but you know when you've got

2284
01:23:47,000 --> 01:23:48,800
when you've got the depth of quality in

2285
01:23:48,800 --> 01:23:50,000
in England it's uh

2286
01:23:50,000 --> 01:23:51,400
it's inevitably going to be a

2287
01:23:51,400 --> 01:23:52,833
a long discussion um

2288
01:23:52,866 --> 01:23:55,233
so thank you very much for everyone who's listening uh

2289
01:23:55,333 --> 01:23:56,400
thank you very much to Simon

2290
01:23:56,400 --> 01:23:57,266
thanks for joining us

2291
01:23:57,266 --> 01:23:59,466
and thank you for all your contributions on the panel

2292
01:23:59,466 --> 01:24:01,100
I know um

2293
01:24:01,266 --> 01:24:06,200
that everyone's enjoying having you as panel lead and

2294
01:24:06,200 --> 01:24:08,800
and being able to tap into that wealth of knowledge

2295
01:24:08,800 --> 01:24:11,866
and thank you again Jasper as well as always

2296
01:24:11,966 --> 01:24:13,400
and yeah good to be here

2297
01:24:13,733 --> 01:24:15,466
thank you very much for everyone who's listening

2298
01:24:15,866 --> 01:24:17,466
please remember to play Fast

2299
01:24:17,466 --> 01:24:18,300
Lunch Slow

2300
01:24:18,466 --> 01:24:20,100
top 100 Golf courses.com

2301
01:24:20,100 --> 01:24:22,466
has set the standard for golfers worldwide

2302
01:24:22,466 --> 01:24:24,700
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2303
01:24:24,866 --> 01:24:26,966
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01:24:26,966 --> 01:24:28,766
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2305
01:24:29,100 --> 01:24:31,633
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