168: Elizabeth Messina: Mastering the Craft of Intimate Portraiture

Prepare to be inspired as we journey through the captivating world of award-winning artist and passionate photographer, Elizabeth Messina. A master of intimate portraiture, Elizabeth has honed her craft to create powerful, intimate images, where the essence of her subjects shines through. Starting with photographing friends and family, Elizabeth has grown as an artist, overcoming struggles and celebrating triumphs along the way. 

We bring you a deep-dive into the art of boudoir photography, where Elizabeth reveals the secrets behind her soul-stirring portraits. She shares how she creates an authentic, comfortable atmosphere that allows for a real connection between her and her subjects; a connection that undoubtedly translates into the final images. Finding the perfect spot for her portraits, harnessing the power of natural light, and the significance of having her own studio, Elizabeth uncovers all of this and more. 

As we wrap up, we venture into the technicalities of Elizabeth's craft. She discusses her favorite tools, her love for her iPhone as an initial bridge for her clients toward the final images, and her philosophy of authenticity and intentionality in her work. Elizabeth's creative process and personal history are laid  for us, providing invaluable insights for aspiring photographers. So, adjust your aperture, get your composition right, and join us on this insightful journey into Elizabeth Messina's world of photography.

If you're interested in signing up for her course you can do so here: https://theartedept.com/

Her 7 secrets to photographing women can be found here: https://theartedept.com/7-secrets-freebie

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

Hello, and thank you so much for joining me today for this very special episode with none other than Elizabeth Messina. This interview was first aired exclusively inside of our membership community, the Wedding Photography Society. If you want to do a free five-day trial of that, be sure to visit TryTheSocietycom, but Elizabeth gave us the permission to also air this interview here on our podcast. Every month we do interviews just like this inside of the community, and this one is a very special one that I am so excited and honored to have been able to do with her. Elizabeth is someone that I've admired for a very long time. She is gosh. Her client list is absolutely incredible and her portfolio is. You guys have to check her out at ElizabethMessinacom or on her Instagram. Her work is just truly inspiring. She's been a part of the industry for a very, very, very long time and in this interview she's sharing with us how she creates these intimate portraits of women, why it's so important and how we can take these tips and strategies and implement it into our own portfolio and client experience. So, without any further ado, let's dive into the episode. Hello everyone, thank you so much for joining me today. I have a very, very special guest for this interview that I am so thrilled to interview. I'm sure many of you already know her, but I am going to give her a brief introduction so that, for those of you who do not know, you'll also have an idea of who this guest is. So I have to hear with me today Elizabeth Messina.

Speaker 1: 1:42

She is an award-winning artist and passionate photographer. Her images are powerful and intimate a sublime balance between light, composition and emotion. Saught after by discerning clientele, elizabeth's images have graced the covers and pages of countless magazines and books. Elizabeth was named one of the best wedding photographers in the world by Vogue magazine and Harper's Bazaar, and her work often takes her to the far corners of the world. Although she's often in creative pursuit, camera in hand, she's most happy in the presence of those she loves. And when Elizabeth isn't taking photographs, you'll find her at home in Southern California with her husband, her three children, her two dogs and a strong cup of coffee. So welcome Elizabeth.

Speaker 2: 2:28

Thank you so much. It's really wonderful to be here.

Speaker 1: 2:32

Thank you so much for being here. You are someone that I have personally admired for a very long time. I think your work is absolutely gorgeous. Anyone who has seen it, they know it. It's unique to you, and that is why I am so thrilled to have you here speaking with all of us about how you create those images. You have created such a body of gorgeous and impactful work of women, and that's what we're going to be talking about today.

Speaker 2: 2:59

Wonderful. Well, thank you. I'm here to tell you anything you want to know.

Speaker 1: 3:03

Okay, great, all right. Well, I would love to start off with you sharing how you found this lovely niche of photographing women and why you love it so much.

Speaker 2: 3:16

I mean, I think the truth is it's just how I started, right Like I. My first camera was given to me when I was quite young and I think, like many people, I just photographed who was around me, and at the time it was my girlfriends right, I was 12. And I didn't know anything. I was really terrible, but I was instantly drawn to wanting to take beautiful pictures of them, and I think that that sort of essence of wanting to capture women I care about and create real emotional connections with them has just translated throughout my career, and what happens now is that I'm actually, I think, more interested in the connection. Even if I'm meeting someone for the first time, I find that the images that are most successful and most satisfying to me come through connection and interaction with someone in a really real way.

Speaker 1: 4:12

Wow. So you just started out photographing friends, like people that you knew and I didn't know, I was a kid.

Speaker 2: 4:20

You know what I mean. I just thought it was fun.

Speaker 1: 4:22

Yeah, I think that's really relatable. A lot of people start like that and then over time, you just developed this ability, this amazing ability to connect with your subject.

Speaker 2: 4:32

Well, it was a little more of a curvy journey than that. I was not from a family that was like artistically minded, so there was no real like support or connection to follow art as as an actual job, you know what I mean. And so I went to college and I was going to be a lawyer and I was not super happy, yeah little, I was a little lost. And it was really through my third year in in university that I took an elective class and I like, when it was a photography class, it just changed my whole life, wow. And from there I ended up applying to art school and I went to a photography school and then I really nurtured this thing that I was drawn to, that I didn't understand. And so I'm like a real, I'm a trained, educated, you know, artist.

Speaker 2: 5:28

And then there was many, many years where I, you know, waitress to buy film, like I did graduate from school and have a career. I really my path was quite have lots of bumps in it. I'm grateful for them all now, but at the time I, you know, I didn't know what I was doing and I think that's why photographing women has been so important throughout that, because even if I wasn't working like having a proper a job or a wedding. I was always interested in making photographs, so that meant I was photographing my sister, my girlfriends, my I like women that were came into my life, and so that was just an easy way to have that artistic expression, even before I had a business.

Speaker 1: 6:14

That is really interesting and I'm really glad that you acknowledged that time, because you know wherever the listener is, they may look at your body of work and see what it is now, because it's been many, many years of you learning that, that skill, and so I think that it's really important to know that, wherever you are, you can begin that journey now and work your way into creating beautiful images. And so, when it comes to photographing women, I've heard you say that it's very important, and I would love for you to talk a little bit about why you feel that, whether the listener is someone who focuses on Boudoir or commercial portraiture, families, weddings why is it important to know how to photograph women specifically?

Speaker 2: 7:04

Well, I mean, this is very personal to me, so I will say that my beliefs may not resonate with everyone. Okay, for me, my process has been part of. It is about, I think, my own journey as a woman and finding my own place and feeling at times like I didn't fit or didn't know where I fit, and that I feel like that. That's something that I have noticed through the years with women that come in front of me, that there's a real vulnerability to being photographed, and there have been many times where people have come into my studio or whatever after hiring me and we've connected and it feels good. But a lot of times people will say to me oh, I don't look like the women in your photographs, right, like I'm not comfortable being photographed. I don't. And and what I realized is that we all are a lot of us have that thing where we're not fully able to see our beauty, our uniqueness.

Speaker 2: 8:04

I think that bigger than just the the power of being good at it for your job and your portfolio and your success, like really making meaningful photographs of women, I think, can maybe help us as a community community of women and artists to feel better and to celebrate the diverse, incredible community of women that we are and that's not to, you know, exclude men at all.

Speaker 2: 8:32

I love men. I have a lot of men in my life. I just haven't noticed that men process their emotions and their self worth in the same way that we do, and so I feel like the most satisfying feeling of photographing a woman who maybe isn't sure how she is going to pose for me or whatever, but getting to a space where it gets relaxed and natural and beautiful, and then sharing prints with her and having her go like, oh, I didn't know, I would look like that I feel like that's bigger than just the job, like to really have a positive impact on people's lives. And then to tie it back around to business, I think in a lot of ways, at least in the business that we're in you know weddings, maternity, family the heart of that is women, and so the more that we can connect with and capture the heart of a family, I think that that really translates into sustainability as a business.

Speaker 1: 9:29

That makes absolute sense and I think, especially from the personal side, is really beautiful. To think about the impact that you're having on these women and like meeting them where they are. I know you photographed women who are pregnant, women who have suffered with cancer, and so to be able to create that experience for them and then preserve them where they are, I think is really quite beautiful from a personal perspective and then, of course, yes, from a business perspective. That makes absolute sense, I think, normally for weddings, I think women are at the root of those events and, yeah, so that makes that makes perfect sense to me. When we were speaking, you said something that I thought was really powerful. You were talking about the word Boudoir and how you. It has like a special meaning to you. So if you were to define boudoir, what does that mean? Someone's never heard that before.

Speaker 2: 10:33

I sort of it's funny about me because I, I, I like to like Give my own definition to words. Sometimes this isn't the only Over the years driven my mother a little crazy because she used to be an English teacher. So I'm like creative with my words and she's like no, no, that's not how that works. I was like right with lowercase letters, you know when it's not accurate. Anyhow, because I'm like uppercase is so loud and aggressive and I'm depends on my. You're an artist, even through your writing I'm. It's hard being me like it's I'm always in my head.

Speaker 2: 11:04

But I feel like the word boudoir is. I think for a lot of people it connotates very sexually. You know powerful imagery and of course I think that's fine and that that is part of it. But for me it's really it's a little more simple and a little more deep.

Speaker 2: 11:23

I think boudoir is truly the art of capturing women in an intimate and respectful and Vulnerable way. And when I say vulnerable I don't mean passive, I mean like a certain stillness or Even anonymity. Like some people, when I photograph them we don't even really see their face, like I love to obscure a face with hair or crop or it's like the essence of somebody and when they feel Comfortable enough in front of you to be Connected and still, and you capture them. I think it's. It's just a special place, so I guess what it is. For me it's a range like, yes, there can be some sensuality, and sometimes the body's present or not, and other times it's really a look in someone's eyes or a feeling that you get when you look at the photograph. It's like an essence and, yeah, I like kind of reclaiming words like that at will.

Speaker 1: 12:22

You are a true artist in in all the ways and and even I remember which I'll circle back to this but I was Very excited to have the opportunity to see you photograph in person and in your home, even the way you presented Food for us. Everything you know, the silverware that you use, the glassware it's like nothing in your presence is not thoughtful and that's really special.

Speaker 2: 12:49

Well, you know, I'm actually sitting right now right where we photographed the, the model, because the light in my office was a little too dark. So this is actually my main shooting space right here. That's so pretty. Yeah, I made a space that is an extension of my home and I feel like my philosophy around Work is to treat the people that come into your space like you would friends or family, because, of course, there's a business to you know being hired to make a photograph, or teaching, or whatever the different aspects of business are, and that's that's fine.

Speaker 2: 13:25

But I'm more interested in how people feel after they've spent time with me, and I feel like that is as important as some of the other more practical aspects of being a photographer. And so, for instance, like what I did for the class that you're referring to, I do that sort of thing for clients too. When you come over, you're a guest and I don't know, did you rush here from the airport? Have you had a bad morning? Are you nervous, right? And I mean those, those questions go whether you're a student or a client, right, like coming over here to be photographed, I don't know what where you are in your personal space in mind.

Speaker 2: 14:04

So, like I try to not have cameras visible, I try to make sure it's clean, like I have my family on board, make it better than and I feel like offering food and tea and just making it feel like you're welcome here and if you need something, and that there's no rush like. The more that we can connect as people, the more positive anything that unfolds after that is, in my opinion, and I think Some of those little things about like creating atmosphere in a space for someone to feel welcome. It's such a simple thing to do that, honestly, I've done for a long time and I don't know if all photographers do that, if they're just like okay, I've got my shot list and you know other things that are important, not to diminish the things we do, to be organized and on top of it, but making a little space for realness and humanness and connection, I think can Incredibly impact your photographs in a beneficial way and honestly the way people are receiving you right.

Speaker 2: 15:06

Let's say, you know you do your best and they still aren't super happy with the photographs. I think if you've made a more real effort to Make someone feel welcome and be kind, they may be less Aggressive or hostile to you if they're not super happy. No, that's always hard if someone doesn't love what you made for them. But I think creating sort of a bond, is it just really positive? Any way you, any way you look at it, mm-hmm.

Speaker 1: 15:35

I agree with that. I think you and I definitely was able to experience that, seeing you work and and I love that it translates into the work. You know, I think one of the questions that I've always had About your work is how does she do it? And there's so many complexities to that, but that is a part of it, that space that you're creating and the environment that you're creating. So you touched on this a little bit. But when you spoke about women and maybe some of the insecurities and issues that we've had as a Society, as a culture, as a gender I know I've personally experienced that when photographing women how, how do you navigate that with grace?

Speaker 2: 16:21

I feel like I think you, I think really there's not one answer.

Speaker 1: 16:27

Okay.

Speaker 2: 16:28

Because I think, like okay, for instance, I have an artistic vision, I'm the person I am, and a core of that, a core of me, is gonna be present in every shoot and every photograph. I'm part of it, right. But also I try not to be too dominant in terms of what I want or what's happening, because the person you're photographing is also a really important part of it. It's a collaboration, right. A photograph, at its heart, is a really pure collaboration, and so what that means to me is somebody may spend more time with me and get less photographs, because we are talking more, because that's what's needed to feel connected and calm, right. And other people are gonna maybe joke around, maybe someone wants a glass of wine, maybe someone really has a hard time making eye contact with the camera, like what I mean. There's a plethora of different things that can happen, and I feel like whatever someone is presenting to me is okay, and so I'm not trying to talk them in to something that I'm hoping for, that I've done before or that worked with somebody else. I'm trying to be at my core, really aware and attentive to what's happening with the person in front of me, or people if there's more than one, and so that dictates my push and pull and interaction. And so I feel like again, I wanna answer the question.

Speaker 2: 17:53

But there's not a simple answer. It's really being observant and patient and responding as you go through right, like if you're observing and somebody thinks you're not shooting and they do something really lovely, like just their natural gesture, which is often the most beautiful, I just go oh, my goodness, don't move, like I'll notice and hold it. I'm always thinking, even if my camera's not in my hand, or, goodness, if somebody is not comfortable showing their body, they're here for a maternity shoot, let's say a boudoir shoot, but they feel really self-conscious about their body, then great, like, let's cover you up and gently. You know, like I'm not, there's not a push. I mean I may suggest things if I think it's gonna work well, or if they said something on the phone that they're saying differently. Now I'll mention oh, you did say that, would you like to try, you know, but it's yeah, it's just like being really present and being thoughtful about who you're dealing with, cause, again, being photographed is, I think, a bit vulnerable for anyone.

Speaker 2: 18:58

And then, when you deal with other things, like being pregnant, not feeling comfortable in your body being slightly undressed, it can be very vulnerable, and I want that to be a good thing, not a bad thing.

Speaker 1: 19:10

I think that that is such a great answer because it is a skill and something that really requires. Everything that you've described, which is that's the art of it, is your ability to pull them out and let them be who they are. You mentioned your natural light studio, which I'm a little jealous of right now, cause it's nighttime where I am, daytime where you are. I love natural light, but I'm not privy to it at the moment. But and you know and having been there in person, your natural light studio is absolutely gorgeous and I'm curious about it, because there are a lot of portrait photographers that use a mix of natural light and artificial light, but it seems as though you photograph solely in natural light. I'd love for you to speak to that and just talk about the creation of the space.

Speaker 2: 20:03

Well, there's so much in that. So for first of all, you know I did go to school. I did learn how to use lights. I do use a flash at night at a wedding, like I can use other lights if I need to, and I've certainly not expert in artificial lighting. But there've been a few editorial and cover shoots where the team requested it and I would just hire people that could help light in a way that I wanted. But if I have a choice, I want to shoot natural light. I just think that, oh, sorry, just kicked my table. If I had the opportunity to choose, I prefer to shoot natural light. And I want to make something really clear I'm jealous of my studio.

Speaker 2: 20:39

Okay, this is an incredible beautiful space that I did not have for predominantly most of my career. So for many, many years this space was a very kind of funky garage with a seven foot ceiling. It was very small and low and we just kind of had our headquarters here, like I had computers and my assistants would come and it was kind of like. It was just a funky like edit space and hangout space and for so long most of my work was created kind of looks the same was shot by some random window and with some random wall. You don't need a ton of space. I think you need a window, maybe like a sheer cotton curtain and something a little uncluttered.

Speaker 2: 21:26

That's it Like there was a spot in my son's room for years that I used to shoot people in. My poor son, like I was like hide all his toys, you know, like make the bed and like just had the best light, and so I would seek that out. So I didn't let him put art on the wall behind the bed so I could like always have a place to shoot. So I've always made, do you know? The other thing that I've done and I suggest is, if you don't have the space, you can like get a backdrop and put it anywhere near a window and hide whatever's behind it. And if you can't afford a backdrop, you can go to like a fabric store and get some fabric and like tack to the wall. Like.

Speaker 2: 22:03

I've done a lot of things over the years just to make what I needed right. And also this space came out of tragedy, like we had a fire here. It's an old home that was built in the 1920s and there was a fire in the wall right over here and it destroyed everything. And so because it got destroyed and because I'm who I am, I was very well insured, because I'm always like want to make sure everything's safe. So I used all the money from the insurance to rebuild a space that I felt if I made something special that I could be proud of, that I could have people like you come.

Speaker 2: 22:41

And so it was my dream to make a space that I could welcome people to and that I wasn't ashamed of, like a funky garage that really no one ever saw, you know, and so this is. I don't know, maybe seven years ago this all happened I'm not great with time, but somewhere around there, and so it's only been at this part of my career that I even have this beautiful space to access. For many, many years I was just piecing it together, and so I don't think you need anything in particular to make work and I think you can.

Speaker 2: 23:11

You know the kitchen of your house, like corner of your kid's room, wherever you can make a portrait. In fact, the cover of my book, the Luminous Portrait, was my assistant at the time, lovely girl. We had gotten a shipment of little veils from Twigs and Honey, someone I've been shooting with, and I was like, oh my God, these are so cool, we should try them on. You gotta try them on. And so she put it on. I was like, oh, it looks so pretty, can I take your picture?

Speaker 2: 23:37

And I took her into my bedroom and like pushed all the stuff aside so you can see the truth right, and just had her get close to the window. She was maybe like three feet from the window and I took some. She had a T-shirt on. I'm like, can you pull it off, cause it's like distracting from the veil. Hold it down just a little bit and like that end up being the cover of my book, cause it was just such a special portrait to me and there was nothing fancy in that moment. It was just a sweet little moment and I think for all of us we can capture those type of moments at really any time in our house, with our kids, with our friends. I mean, you can practice and make art even if you don't have the clients you want yet.

Speaker 1: 24:16

I think that's really great to acknowledge and touch on, because we're not always privy to these spaces, and you do photograph weddings and especially at weddings, we don't always have ideal environments, and so I think that that makes a lot of sense. When you talk about and I've heard you speak about this the space in between moments, you say that a lot. What does that mean and how are you capturing those? If you can put it into words, I can try.

Speaker 2: 24:53

I mean, it's more of a feeling than anything. But sometimes, like you know, when you're, let's say, you have a couple or I don't know anything, let's just start with a couple because that's a good we all do a lot of that and they're really sweet and they're in love, but they're a little awkward, they don't know what to do and they want you to suggest posing to them, and so I always feel like posing and I have a lot of ideas and ways that I start. Posing is a starting point, right, it's a way to get someone close enough. In a certain way that gives you a chance to find something real between them. But you kind of got to get them started. So, for instance, one thing I'll do is with couples like, let's say, at a wedding, I have them for a little while and they're like, oh great, we want to be photographed. What do we do? And I'm like, okay, okay, I'll have them do practice their first dance alone, in a field where the light is beautiful and it gives them something to do that is real. But also it gives me a chance to start to see them acting with each other in a way that's more natural. Something happens she'll laugh, touches face, he'll kiss, like something.

Speaker 2: 26:01

And it's those moments in between what I'm trying to get, a little moment of realness, where I feel it like it, just like, and I'll try to stop it or catch it the other time. That happens. A lot is when I'm shooting, shooting, shooting, it's going whatever, and then I kind of like pause, like I'm done, or I'm taking a break and I'll put my camera down. I'll be like, oh my God, amazing, and my subject will relax. And then all of a sudden they do something. That is just I feel it. I'm like, oh, don't move, I'll pick my camera back up. It's the in between what you think you're supposed to get and the realness of what's unfolding, and sometimes it's just a subtle thing. It's like the shape of a neck that you notice when you look from a different angle, and sometimes it's a feeling of relaxation that you feel from your client. It's not always the same thing, but it is. It's like in between, the space between what you're trying to get and what's happening, and then something magic can happen.

Speaker 1: 27:02

That's really beautiful and I love that there's a little bit of prompting there and then sometimes a little bit of sitting back. I feel like you even just in talking about these things. It's almost like you have this push and pull if that makes sense when you're shooting 100%.

Speaker 2: 27:18

There's a rhythm to it, I think. For me, I think it's almost like a heartbeat. There's an energy around to shoot people that are there. Let's say it's a woman and she's pregnant, it's her first and she's in the space. There's a vibe between us, but it's also like have you ever been shooting? And the silence gets strong and you don't know how to feel it.

Speaker 2: 27:44

I think that that is something that for me, what I do I always have music on Music is a really important part of my life and how I work, because I think having actual rhythm in the room helps the rhythm and the flow of a shoot and helps when, like sometimes, I'm doing math in my head and composing and trying to figure things out. I can't speak like a normal person because I'm all in my photographer brain, but I think if it's quiet and you do that for too long, people can sometimes feel like something's not right. When there's rhythm, it just helps. I mean, I'll start dancing sometimes, my model, it's like. I feel like it really brings people together and it's just arming in a really positive way.

Speaker 1: 28:28

Yeah, that was actually one thing that really stood out to me, elizabeth, whenever I watched you photograph, was how I mean, as an artist, I think you're very specific about a lot of things. We already talked about that. Your letters when you write, you want lowercase letters, and one of the things I took away from that was, a how intentional you are about everything, and then also B just the music in the room. You were very specific, like if you weren't feeling it, you would say, nope, I'm not feeling that we need to change the vibe, and it was. It's like a part of your process and I thought that was really cool, really interesting. It's kind of instinctual.

Speaker 2: 29:03

It's weird. It's like I mean, whenever I'm on my own working, I always have music on too, and like sometimes I have it changed because some of my songs on my playlist can be a little X rated and I'll get nerf. I'll be like oh wait, we can't play that in a group, skip that one. Or if there's children around, I'll have a different energy or music I'll be playing, but yeah.

Speaker 1: 29:23

Yeah, aside from music, is there anything else that you can think of from shooting that you use to create that trusting and safe environment or just a vibe in the room?

Speaker 2: 29:36

I mean, we've been talking about it, I think, a little bit throughout this conversation, but it's a lot of things. It's like from when someone comes over and there's insets and a candle lit and food that's disarming, Someone can kind of breathe a little bit Like oh she expected me.

Speaker 2: 29:52

This is so nice. And then it goes to the pacing of how we get from that moment into like try and dress is on, or getting to the art part of it. Again, it's about not rushing but not being afraid to suggest something. And I think the truth is like so much of this stuff I'm speaking about with like confidence and clarity is because I figured this out over. I mean, I've been shooting. Let me just think about this. I shot my first wedding when I was 28 and I'm 55. Wow, that's amazing. And before that I was doing portraits and stuff. So I figured these things some of it like I've always kind of had an inclination towards but being more meaningful, about it being more thoughtful handwritten notes, printing work. When you're done, I greet my clients, help them come in the house with their belongings, I'll walk them to their car. Like this is a human experience, it's not just a job, right?

Speaker 1: 30:56

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 30:57

And I think when you're requiring somebody to be open with you which you really need, I think during a photo shoot, you need to meet them in that space and be open yourself and be warm yourself, and so sometimes for me I don't know again it's just always different. The way my time is shared and the way my process goes is yeah, I'm a businesswoman and I have certain parameters, but I'm a human first and I'm connecting as human before anything else. I think that's really important to me. Honestly for me, I'm a businesswoman To be happy in this business for a long time. If it's only a business, then I think it's hard to stay emotionally connected and feel satisfied. Like I love making photographs, I feel really lucky to be able to do it, and when someone is trusting enough to allow me to photograph them, that's no small thing to me, like I'm doing. That's. My dream is to be able to do this.

Speaker 1: 31:54

Yeah, that's beautiful, that's really lovely. I was curious, as you were talking, if somebody is listening to this and they're thinking like, well, maybe they don't do those things or don't know how to do those things, maybe they've never been taught or experienced, is there any advice you could give someone on how to learn, if that's even a thing, how to be more?

Speaker 2: 32:17

Absolutely. Here's what I think. I think nobody has to do what I do, but maybe they should consider being intentional with what they do and in their own natural way. Right, like I love incense, I like that every day. That's part of my life. I like that before you guys come over. You know what I mean, because I kind of think, oh, if they smell that again, they'll remember being here. It's like part of the atmosphere. Right, you hate incense, don't like incense. You don't like candles, no big deal.

Speaker 2: 32:45

Like you could literally do anything pick a flower from your garden, put it on the table with, like I don't know, a coffee cake from Trader Joe's. Like it's just the intention behind how you're making someone feel. If you're meeting someone, let's say, in their home or at the park to do a shoot, right, it's different. I think when someone comes into your space, you can kind of be more meaningful and intentional around, welcoming them. Welcoming, excuse me them, as you would, I guess, but if I go to someone else's home, I'm not coming in with, like you know, a bunch of stuff that I would at my house. However, I put my bags by the door. I ask if I should take my shoes off. A lot of people care about that, you know what I mean.

Speaker 2: 33:27

And I come in without like I'm not like camera in hand. Okay, let's go. Where do you want to do this? You know I'm much more connected if there's a child there. Maybe I'd be like oh my God, where's your room? Why was it, you know? Or maybe I brought a small gift, maybe I'll bring a candle for the mom and, I don't know, a little doll for the. You know what I mean. Just something like being a kind person is not special. You know what I mean.

Speaker 2: 33:55

Like that's just something that I found I want to be really aware when I'm going into someone's home or they're coming into my home and then, if we're going to the park, for instance, to do a shoot, or the beach, I might have like scouted and I have obviously many, many times and nowhere spots are going to be nice, so I'm not dragging them everywhere on the beach, maybe no spot where it's not going to be a ton of people right, creating an opportunity for it to be less stressful.

Speaker 2: 34:21

Maybe, if I'm going to meet you at the park for a family shoot, maybe I bring some water and fruit just in case we end up there longer than we need, and it's in my bag. It's not a big deal, but I want to anticipate just someone else's experience. Now, I'm not bringing music to other people's houses, okay, I want to make that clear. I'm not doing that in public. There's levels and depending on the situation, but again it's more about the intentionality. Like I would say to people starting out have you thought about and are you aware of how your clients and people feel after being in your presence? And I think that that is a really important part of how they are going to experience the photos you give them after? Yeah, so I think that could be different for everybody and should be, yes, the idea of what is something special to you that you might do if your best girlfriend's coming over, and why wouldn't you do that if your client's coming over.

Speaker 1: 35:25

Right, respective. Yeah, it's almost like tapping into who you are, finding what's unique to you and pulling that out in the other person by honoring that.

Speaker 2: 35:37

You should just honor me in the situation right, and also, that is the exact same thing you should be doing in your photographs. Yes, I will happily share with you everything I do and why I do it and how I approach it, but then I think the best part of teaching is when I share that with someone. They take it in and then they put it through their system and translate their work through that, with those other sort of thoughtfulness and guidelines in place, but not to make work just like mine, right? That is the most authentic for you and your clients, whatever that might be.

Speaker 1: 36:11

Yes, and there really is such like a stillness and a calmness in your imagery. And it makes perfect sense when you talk about your intentionality and the environment that you enjoy, because that does come through in your images and it's natural to you, because that's who you are, that's what you enjoy, and I love that you're talking about this because it's you know, informing people to figure out what makes them feel good and they can bring that out in other people. And it may not, like you said, look just like your work, but that's okay, it shouldn't, because it's artistry, because it's amazing all these different voices in our space.

Speaker 2: 36:47

Yeah, I think the thing is is if you really are leaning in truly what feels natural for you, it's easy to be yourself. It's much harder to try to be like someone else and keep that up Right Exactly. And I think the truth is why I feel so strongly about this now is because when I was starting out, I didn't know that. I didn't know what to do. I didn't have this sort of clarity around intentional making of images the way I do now, and so I kind of I wish I could 12, I wish I could share all the things I know now with 20 year old me and tell her to relax. That it's she was like so what do I do? What do I do? And I was doing it just fine. You know, I was just being myself, and I think that that is something that's hard to see when you're in the middle of it and easier when you're kind of reflecting on the body of your work and where you come from.

Speaker 1: 37:39

Right, Right. Well, this is a bit of a more tangible question, but what are your necessary and favorite tools for documentation? You know anything from the gear. Yeah, gear mainly like cameras, things like that.

Speaker 2: 37:55

So well for many years I mean, I don't know. I'm sure you know I have been a film photographer and I love film photography. I think there's a grace and a beauty just inherent to the quality of film and I also think there's something interesting about film photography as a as a medium is that, because you can't see your camera the way you can with digital, it makes you be more intentional and connected, because you have to be both about exposure, focus, composition, everything, because you will not have a chance to fix it and by the time you know it will be too late.

Speaker 2: 38:35

And I know that from making horrible mistakes when I was learning and higher shoots not coming out Like my mistakes are so much more than my successes, like all along the way, and I think that you learn so well from that, like tangible stuff, right? So my first camera, as I mentioned, was a gift from my mom and that was a Nikon F E2, which I still have. It's a 35 millimeter. I don't use it very much anymore but it's you know I should. And then my main cameras for many years, a context 645. What I love about that is the large format which you know, the 645 dimension, it's just you get a bigger negative the qualities really like tactile and I love the shape. Like the 35 millimeter shape, which is that sort of longer, skinnier shape, never resonated with me as much. I don't know why, there's no reason. I just like I like that shape, right. Yeah, to the point when, when I was mixing 35 millimeter and the contact 645, I would actually crop my 35 millimeter to match my 645 because I just like it better, and I would think about that when I was shooting that I don't want those edges, you know like. So I'm a little crazy. But and then you know, over the years I've had a ton of cameras like I love funky old whole guys. I love Polaroid. I used to have a beautiful Hasselblad and like that, like I love and would use more for personal work, but those were in the fire, so I love, so I lost those when the happen.

Speaker 2: 40:02

But I also have really loved shooting digital over the years to and I don't know that. A lot of people know that because I was so deeply connected to my film work. But I, I mean, when digital first came out, I tried it. I tried many cameras on the way and nothing really resonated with me and that I was like, oh, I like this feels like something, the way my contacts did, and so I would use it, try it, try tools and just whatever. It was fine. And I I know for some people those cameras, even early on, were incredible. So whatever anyone uses, that's amazing. Use what you use and know how to use it. Well, right Now technology is incredible and things are different. So I now have been using a digital camera much more meaningfully. I think I used it when you were here. I can't remember if you saw me use it, but I use actually you.

Speaker 1: 40:58

You, interestingly enough, used your iPhone quite a bit.

Speaker 2: 41:01

Oh, I do use my iPhone. Quite about that. That, that's true. I'll tell you about that too. But yeah, the GFX 100 s has been. I've been using that now for maybe a year or two, I don't even know. But I started experimenting with it and I wasn't sure it was hard to learn something new, but after I kind of got the hang of it. The quality of the images again, it's a large format so it has a very similar shape to my contacts, and the quality of the light and the images are gorgeous.

Speaker 2: 41:32

Like I cannot tell you how happy I am and I know again, even with my film work, I have that scanned and I would tweak it a little bit if the color was off or the light was off. I think that's kind of what I do with my digital work now. I barely touch it, I add a little grain because I do like the grain feeling of a film and maybe like gentle color, gentle, like like I just do minor tweaks but enough to really like I don't know. I feel like it really is very interchangeable with my film work. And then, to your point, I use an iPhone a lot.

Speaker 1: 42:03

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 42:04

I'll tell you what I love about the iPhone. It's like the perfect modern day Polaroid. It allows you to check and connect to what's happening in a way, like for me, what happens when I have someone in front of me, I'll feel like, yeah, like this light the thing I'll start. But sometimes, when it's right there In real time, you don't see everything. If that makes sense.

Speaker 2: 42:28

So, I'll check it with my iPhone now with a class I do it so everyone can see and like it kind of. Again, it's it's less confrontational for your subject. Everyone has a phone you can like take a few pictures. It's not like a big camera camera and also it kind of protects you from the classic sneak peek situation that everyone wants right. I think that's one of the things that I like about sneak peeks.

Speaker 2: 42:51

As an artist, I find that really tricky because I want to keep my clients happy. But my process of looking at my work and really culling and picking the best ones I can't give you a sneak peek. I have to edit the whole job to know what one is the one to send you. You know that that's like that's challenging. Thank you so much for watching and thank you. I take iPhone shots throughout the shoot, check things. It helps me like oh, I didn't notice that you know side of the frame was looking a little funny or the light wasn't quite what I thought. Yeah, but also it gives me a little body of work at the end of the night I can sit in bed, pick my favorites, send it to my client. They get that immediate rush of like oh, cool. But also I'm like you know, just wanted to send you a few iPhone shots so they know the real work is coming. But it kind of bridges that gap between. I don't want to say no, but I also don't want to edit the whole job that night.

Speaker 2: 43:41

That's not a good way to see work, I don't think. I think you need a little space from the creation process. So yeah, I do, I love an iPhone.

Speaker 1: 43:49

I thought that was probably one of the most surprising things and actually, yes, I was shocked. I'm like I never would have thought, and the craziest part was that your iPhone images look amazing.

Speaker 2: 44:02

That's not. The crazy part is sometimes when I get my work back and I'm like I think the iPhone is better than me. That's like that's always humbling. But thank you for that.

Speaker 1: 44:11

Yeah, and actually that was one of the things amongst many things, but that was actually one of the little small tactics that I picked up. And because there really is, there's something about seeing something in person versus in a photograph. Even if it's an iPhone photo, you see more. Somehow it's the craziest thing. Like, I've taken pictures of people and I've looked at my camera sometimes, or I get on my computer to edit and I'm thinking, hmm, I can realize that they, you know this or that, like whatever you know, it's just you see things, so that makes perfect sense. Well, I obviously had an amazing time and experience seeing you teach in person. It was a beautiful experience. I'm so grateful. But you have been working on something very exciting that is officially available as of the day this goes live, and so, yes, yes, so I want you to share a little bit about that with us.

Speaker 2: 45:13

Well. So I'm not sure if you know this, but I have been very hesitant over the years to be photographed or be filmed while I'm shooting and not in any kind of like. The reason behind that was twofold. One, I am a bit introverted, like my nature. Growing up I was a bit more shy. I mean, I'm getting better as I get older, just functioning in the world, and I love one-on-one conversations, like if I think that people are listening. That makes me a little nervous, but if it's just between you and me, I can really vibe on that. It's just us here. So, yeah, it's just us, just us.

Speaker 2: 45:49

And then also, you know again, I'm very passionate about photography and I felt strongly like some of the earliest times that I started getting asked to have like behind the scenes videos was like doing covers for magazines, and I was really not super open to that because I felt like the most important thing was getting the image for the magazine and the filming me getting the image somehow could disrupt the process. So I wouldn't do as good of work and I feel like I've always been a purist about my work. I just want it to be the best it can be, whatever that is. And so I didn't really get like why that was even necessary. I mean, maybe I'm a little behind the time, that may be.

Speaker 2: 46:33

But so I was just said no and or if there had to be video there, we would. I would step out and stop working and take a break and let them do their video. I didn't want that crossover again because I wanted the work and the connection with the model or the person to be as positive and clear as it could be. So with that said and I think you know too I don't usually say yes to podcast interviews I basically made a living out of saying no. I was like no, thank you, no, thank you.

Speaker 1: 47:04

Well, we're happy you've changed that, yeah.

Speaker 2: 47:07

I mean, it's really. You know, it's interesting to grow and evolve as a person and as a woman and I feel like all the things that led me to say no before were really really and really true. And it's not that it's very different now. It's that, as I get older and realize that these conversations are so valuable Like I love photography and I love other women and I love us being able to connect about that and that's real. I do this off camera all the time. I'll go to coffee, someone will talk about this stuff all day long, Like, so that is a space I really love. And also, like I said a minute ago, I wish I could talk to younger me.

Speaker 2: 47:47

You know, I was so hopeful and so unsure and took so long to figure it out where I feel like if I could mentor me from before, I would have been doing work so much sooner.

Speaker 2: 48:00

You know, Like differently I wouldn't have been, I guess. Sometimes I feel like maybe I was in my own way and I could have used a mentor and there wasn't even a word for that one, at least not one that I knew. So the project I've been working on for about the past year is that I have been filming and creating a course. That is my entire process. So I've been filming and deconstructing how I do photo shoots and literally everything from some of the stuff we talked about with creating the atmosphere, how I create a space for someone to some of my personal history that nobody knows, so photos of me that have never been seen, stories that I've never shared about really what happened and how I got here. So I'm trying to be very open in a way that to this point I haven't, and then also I'm filming both, like I'm actually got really into filming, basically making my photographs come to life.

Speaker 2: 49:00

And then I had a crew of girlfriends who allowed me to creative, direct and helped me film myself in my creative process making the work that I've been making, and it's been transformative. Like I'm so excited. I'm at a point in my life where I'm really excited to share and because the course, which is entirely about the art of photographing women, is devoted to that special part of my practice as a photographer, it just feels like the right time. Like I've been doing this for a long time, I really have something to share and by being able to film it myself and create it myself, it didn't feel like a conflict the way it may have on other shoots. I feel like the entire work was making the course. So I was invested in the filming and the videotaping and the speaking and all the things that before were a distraction from the photographs. So my purpose was the course. So I'm very excited to be doing this for this time in my life. Yeah, it feels right.

Speaker 1: 50:04

Yeah, and I think everything that you've said leading up to this point it makes sense why you waited until now, because you're such that person that it needs to feel right. It needs to feel like it was time, and we're so thankful that it is time because you have a lot to share and, as someone who has learned from you in person, I think it's really quite amazing, now that you've documented your process and you've filmed all of this, to be able to teach younger you I'm putting that in quotation marks for people who aren't seeing it, but maybe listening to it on audio. It's like we can now learn from you without having to make some of those mistakes on our own, and we can do that without having to fly all the way to California to do that Right.

Speaker 2: 50:54

Well, and I think that was part of the awakening for me, is that, although I love you know, I've mentored people privately and I love that connection and I've hosted small, small classes a few times a year it's a very small group of people that can get here or can afford to get here Right, even the plane tickets sometimes can be. So I felt like, well, this is actually a way to really be accessible and be purposeful about sharing and I don't know, it just feels. It feels like all the things in my life have come together. I didn't actually know that I would do this earlier. It wasn't like I had a plan, it just all kind of came together in this past year in a series of events and it felt like I kind of got excited and I'm like I'm making a film. I'm like you know like.

Speaker 2: 51:41

I just the way I get into things when I'm in that space and, yeah, and I'm hopeful that it really does like give people both some foundational, actionable things they can do, like proper tips to like make better photographs, but also like deep thoughtfulness about how to access your own artistic eye, like what that is and the process about getting there, as well as little inspirational videos, assignments throughout, and we haven't opened it yet, but we're working on creating an opportunity to have some more intentional connection after the course where I might show up and answer questions. We're not quite sure what that's going to be, but I feel like I don't want it to be static. I want to be able to have some community around it. And, yeah, the course is entitled. It's interesting. You asked me earlier about Boudoir. It's the art of Boudoir, but it's really, at its heart, the art of photographing women with intentionality.

Speaker 1: 52:44

That's amazing, elizabeth, and I think you as an educator are just as unique in that way as you are as an artist, and you have a different approach that's very, you know, special to who you are, and so, as someone who has personally learned from you, I know that I have taken away that intentionality. That was aside from the little tactics, like we've talked about using the iPhone or creating an environment with the music it really, for me, was understanding that your photographs are a reflection of you and, interestingly enough, that I had to tap more into me as a person in order to be more intentional and create work that resonates with me, that I couldn't just create work that looks like Elizabeth Messina it's never going to be authentic but rather just seeing you in the space, it's like okay, she's just really leaning into her, and so that kind of inspired me in that way. So that was my biggest takeaway and it was really. It was really such an amazing experience and I hope that you know whoever's listening in if they are privy to take part in this course and learn from you that they can find their own special takeaway as well. So I am going to be dropping that link into the show notes so that everyone listening in can check that out.

Speaker 1: 54:10

I also want to share for those of you who are very new into Elizabeth space. She also put together a PDF that anyone can download. It's called the seven secrets to creating intimate and exquisite photographs of women. I've downloaded it and I've looked at it already. It's very beautiful. It's got some great tactical tips, so we can always start there, and when you're ready to dig into more and really go deep with Elizabeth, then we're going to link up the art of Boudoir as well. And so I just wanted to say thank you so much for your time, your talent. You're incredibly inspiring and I truly mean that from the bottom of my heart. Elizabeth, you've inspired me in many, many ways. I'm honored that you've shared this space with me, and we just so appreciate you. So thank you very much. Oh, my goodness, I'm like my whole body got tingles.

Speaker 2: 55:05

Thank you so much. I was you're very kind and honestly like. It's been a pleasure talking with you and I feel so lucky that you came to my class and now I came to your podcast. It's like full circle it really is.

Speaker 1: 55:19

It really is. Thank you so much.