#14: Between Belief and Unbelief: Navigating Religious Trauma with Neil Carter

Navigating Deconversion, Religious Trauma, and Self Discovery

This episode features an in-depth conversation with Neil Carter, host of the podcast 'Godless in Dixie', focusing on his personal journey through deconversion, the challenges of dealing with religious trauma, and the impact on his identity as a man. Neil shares insights into the psychological and emotional complexities of losing one's faith, the process of redefining self-worth and authenticity, and the importance of finding community and understanding in the aftermath of religious departure. The discussion also explores strategies for coping with religious traumas, such as reparenting oneself and internal dialogue with different aspects of one's personality, underscoring the value of self-compassion and meaningful connections in healing and growth.

00:00 Exploring Masculinity and Religion: A Deep Dive

00:45 Introducing Neil Carter: From Faith to Atheism

02:31 Neil's Personal Journey Through Religion and Deconversion

05:06 The Layers of Religious Trauma Unveiled

13:27 Navigating Life Post-Deconversion: Challenges and Coping

14:57 The Struggle for Authenticity in a Faith-Dominated Environment

26:21 Rebuilding Life and Finding Community Outside Religion

30:45 Reflecting on Core Beliefs and the Ongoing Trauma

33:35 Navigating Faith and Family Dynamics

34:12 Supporting Family Faith While Maintaining Authenticity

37:23 Finding Connection Beyond Faith

40:19 Internal Growth and Self-Compassion

43:37 Embracing the Multiverse of Self

52:54 Dealing with Religious Trauma and Finding Community

58:40 Final Thoughts and Resources


Neil's Podcast: Godless in Dixie
Interview an Atheist at Church: Video

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*This is not a substitute for therapy nor is it therapeutic advice. If you would like to find a therapist in your area check out psychologytoday.com, goodtherapy.org, or therapyden.com

Transcript

0:28

If my purpose as a man is to provide for a family and to be a spiritual leader, then not being able to have that function is, it's a kind of impotence, actually. It's, it's a fundamental undermining of who you're supposed to be. Hey guys. Welcome back to another episode. Today I have a very special guest. My friend, Neil Carter. He is the host of the podcast godless in Dixie. And today we talk about his journey with deconversion and religious trauma and how that's impacted his life. And how he feels about himself as a man. I think you guys are really going to enjoy this episode. So please open up your mind. Take a listen. And also, I just wanted to preface this. That we are not on here to bash religion at all, or those who have religious beliefs. As you listen, you're going to see why I chose Neil to be on my episode. He is incredible at describing the differences between religion and non religion and how that's impacted his life. So stick around.

katrina_1_04-21-2024_092720: 1:31

Hey, Neil. I am so glad that you are on my podcast today. I'm very, very stoked to have you. This is a topic that I've been wanting to talk about for a really long time and you and I have known each other for,

neil_1_04-21-2024_102720: 1:42

Wow,

katrina_1_04-21-2024_092720: 1:43

a long time, probably going on

neil_1_04-21-2024_102720: 1:46

10 years? No,

katrina_1_04-21-2024_092720: 1:47

Almost. Yeah. So how I met you was I was in a religion class in graduate school to become a counselor and I had to interview somebody from a different religion. So I chose atheism and even though at that time I had deconverted. And so I really just wanted to research into atheism. So that was my thoughts on that. But I found some of your videos and you had done this one video that was interview an atheist day at church. And that is the thing that drew me into you because I love how you approach discussing religion in a way that's not offensive to people. So I thought that this would be a good opportunity for us to talk about religious trauma. Without the anti theism. So with that, can you tell us just like a Cliff Notes version of your story?

neil_1_04-21-2024_102720: 2:37

All right. I grew up very religious. Maybe in my younger years I was less committed to it, but by the time I was a teenager, I was very into it. I got saved or re saved when I was about 16, and the next 20 years after that was pretty much all in for my faith. You know, different forms of ministry, went to seminary, went to a Baptist college I was going to get a Bible degree there, but ended up doing psychology because I was fascinated in that, and then went on to get the master's degree in biblical studies from Reformed Seminary, but I wasn't really a Presbyterian. That's just they were close by, and it was they had a good reputation, and pretty soon after that, I went into the house church movement, which was, you know, a nontraditional direction to go, but a lot of that was just. informed by my own study of the New Testament. It, I just felt like there was nothing that we were doing that was really anything like first century stuff. And as a Baptist, you learn to do like they did in the Bible as best as you can figure it out. So I did that. And that really characterized my life for a long time. My life was really oriented around my faith and every decision I made was based on that faith. But I've always been a curious person too. So over the course of those years, the more questions I asked, the more The harder it got to figure out, not just why aren't there answers, but why does it seem like I'm guilted for asking the questions? Because that's the part that bothered me. It bothered me that the curiosity wasn't encouraged, it was discouraged. And I understood the reasons why, and there were all these verses to quote. That could support squashing the questions. There was a movie that came out not too long ago, an animated movie called, was it called a little foot? Was it, it was about big foot, but really it was not big foot. It was an animated and it was all about questioning things that you were taught. It's really a funny movie, mostly kids movie, but I really liked, like the way they went with it because they talked about how everybody made them squash down all their questions about everything. That's what bothered me the most, I think, is that I was taught to believe that if all truth is God's truth, that I don't have to worry about following the evidence wherever it leads, because it's always going to lead back to the same answers. But that's not really what I found. What I found was that it led to answers I didn't like, and lots of other people didn't like. And the more you openly discuss them, the more upset people get with you. Because when you ask questions that are painful to think about, people get mad. And I would think that's probably where some of the trauma comes from. There's really a couple of layers of trauma. Actually, I can think of at least three. For me, one is the personal layer. I grew up to believe in a person that was a very personal, very important person to me. And I developed a relationship with this person for a long time, well over 20 years. And it wasn't just like a side thing in a compartment for me. It was the center of everything for me. So, When I deconverted and lost my faith over a period of time, it was like losing a person. It was like losing the most important person in my life. So there's a level of trauma that comes from that. Um, and it doesn't even have to be a real person for that to be the case. A great example of that would be the movie Castaway. In the movie Castaway, Tom Hanks ends up in the middle of nowhere for four years with a volleyball and he develops a relationship with the volleyball and it comes a point, spoiler alert, where he loses the volleyball out to sea and he crumbles and weeps because that was his only friend in the world and he knew it was just a volleyball, but it didn't matter. That was still his, that was his only person to really. So, the pain was just as real as losing an actual person. And that's what it was like for me. Whether or not my relationship was a legitimate thing with God, it, once it was gone, it hurt. And it took away a lot of the coping mechanisms a person has. You know, a good example would be when bad things happen, I always had a belief system that taught me that they always happen for a reason. So you have a way of making sense out of senseless things. God has a plan. You don't have to understand it. Just trust that God will take care of it. That's a wonderful thing to believe. It really helps people get through a lot of pain and suffering. And it did for me too. And when I no longer believed the same things I believed anymore, I no longer had that. And so that's traumatizing. You have to develop new coping mechanisms and that's not so easy. And if you happen to live in a religious environment, that's all anybody gives you. Like that's it. The more religious your environment, the more limited to just trust Jesus their advice gets. And that's like the next layer of trauma is people. people. don't know how to comfort you without Jesus. So you go through a loss. You go to anyone that is. person of faith. That's all they've got in their bag. It's about Jesus. Trust God. Pray about it. Everything they have to give, in my experience, is centered around Jesus. And so I said, but what if I don't? Now what? And they're like, I don't know. I got nothing. Because if you grow up Southern Baptist, for example, like I did in Mississippi, you're taught that your faith is supposed to be everything. And that you're supposed to trust God and anybody who doesn't trust God or believe in God, they're going to be lost and they're going to be hopeless. So the only thing you can do for a person like that is to remind them they need to believe in God and trust God and reach out to him and pray about it. But if you're not that kind of person, you got nothing for them. So that's a whole other layer of trauma. It's trying to deal with the relationships that used to be good, but the moment they've got nothing for you, it breaks the relationship. It really makes it difficult to connect. And there's at least another layer for somebody like me, where your whole life is built around your faith. And your career trajectory, your, your professional choices, even your family life, it's oriented around it. And so when I no longer was a believer, all of that kind of broke up because my family, in a lot of ways, were based around my faith. And. Those relationships were damaged by that. And if there was anything I could have done to keep that from happening, I think I would have done it. And since then, both I and everybody else in my family have worked really hard to get over the differences, you know. And that's something that they all deserve a lot of credit for, is that we found ways to connect. And work our way around the disconnection from no longer being a part of the faith. But, there's multiple layers of trauma, and I think the worst part is just how isolating it can be when the time comes. If you're in a place where it's not everything, it's not the whole culture, you can roll with it. It's no big deal. You find a new thing to be into and you go do it, but you live in a place like Mississippi and everywhere you go, like I've got a gas station or two that I can go to and it plays Christian music overhead and the job that I have now working in long term care in a nursing home, faith is what most people get by the day. With, the way they get through thing is they trust that God has a plan and that they're gonna be reconciled with God soon And so that's part of my job working in nursing home is to try to help people connect with their faith Because that's how they do it where I am and I'm not a person of faith. So you don't talk about a challenge Uh, that's, that's difficult, is that I'm no longer in a place where I can just circumnavigate the faith question. I'm dealing with people who are in, at times, they're in pain and dealing with loss, and their faith is all they have, and I have to meet them where they are. So it puts me in a really interesting position of leading a dual life, where when I'm by myself, I'm one person, and I'm still the same person when I'm with everybody else, but I have to have tools to connect with them that are not really meaningful to me personally anymore, except that I understand, I understand why being able to reach out in their faith to someone Above them, someone who is supposed to be in control of everything that's happening. It's a comfort, and I really understand why people rely on it as much as they do. So, that's never been difficult for me, and it's never been a problem for me to not look down on anybody who's a person of faith. Because I spent too many years as that myself, and so I understand it. And also, everyone I love, just about, is a person of faith. And so I just don't see people in two dimensions the way that a lot of people do who have never been a part of faith.

katrina_1_04-21-2024_092720: 11:27

I love how you broke it up into the three different parts. You know, it sounds like a lot of the stuff that you lost that was really traumatic for you was your whole perception of the world, right? Your entire lens of how you viewed everything in the world was taken away. Um, and that included your best friend, the person that you love the most or the God that you love the most. And then isolating you from the culture that you live in now. Like you are now an outsider and there's a lot of judgment to that. you know, I grew up non denominational Christian and it was better to be a Satanist than to be an atheist by far, because you still believed in God.

neil_1_04-21-2024_102720: 12:07

they don't know the difference.

katrina_1_04-21-2024_092720: 12:08

They don't, even though

neil_1_04-21-2024_102720: 12:09

who's an atheist. Yeah. But every if you say you're an atheist, they think that means you worship Satan. Which doesn't make any sense. It's not something they fought through really well.

katrina_1_04-21-2024_092720: 12:20

Yeah. And, I think just over our time talking too, that I would add in an extra, like a fourth layer to all of this, which would be like the core beliefs about ourselves as well. So like, uh, you know, a lot of this stuff is, yeah, you have to lose, or at least, especially for you where you're at, you know, I'm in Colorado, so I don't experience a lot of religion. But when I go back to Oklahoma and visit my family, I do. So I do, um, have to navigate that in a specific way because you don't want to be offensive because that could just cause issues, especially when you're outnumbered. but also it's very hard to be authentic and just be like, Oh, I don't believe in God, you know? but then you go to that deeper level, which is like those core beliefs that you have about yourself. And from what I've found in my practice and working with clients is those core beliefs come into every area of their life. Even if they're not religious anymore. I don't want to skate over the fact that you lost everything because that's huge. I think that's a very difficult thing to go through. What was that like for you? Having to tell your spouse, tell your kids, tell your family? How did that feel a

neil_1_04-21-2024_102720: 13:35

Uh, it was difficult and painful for all of us because none of us wanted to disconnect. Fortunately the kids have gotten to be old enough that we can have more complicated conversations. When they were small when all this started for me. And they see I guess I must have left the faith what would that be now? I've not even done the math in a while. About 2019? No, 2009. So what is that now? That's 15 years? I don't know. I gotta do the math. It's been a while. But the kids were small and it wasn't something I could discuss with them. They just knew that I wasn't going to church with them anymore. And then they saw that the family was breaking up and there really wasn't a lot I could do to discuss the reasons why, except just to work as hard as we could to keep everything together. And we did a pretty good job, by the way. My ex wife and I we made it to where we shared the parenting responsibilities as much as we could. And we both stayed connected enough to the kids. The girl's lives have four daughters that we did our best not to make them lose anything of us. And now though, they're in their twenties for the most part. And so I can start having conversations. Um, last week we went to see the eclipse because in Mississippi, it was, solid clouds, and we wanted to see like a full eclipse. So we drove as far as Little Rock to get to watch it. And it was fun. We had a good time. And one of my daughters asked me on the way back, she said do you talk to people at your new job about where you are? In your faith, you know, and whether or not you actually subscribe to it anymore. And I said, no, I don't. She's like, you don't think that's like a problem? Cause you know, she knows that I'm a person who wants to be authentic in my relationships. said, sure, it's problem. It's not a new problem. I'm pretty used to it. But the bottom line for me is that. And if I start that conversation with someone that I know it's going to upset, it creates a distance between me and that person. And these walls go up. And I told her, I said, I hate the walls I hate them because what I want to do is be able to connect to the other person. And if I know that going there, going into that conversation and saying something about me not being a part of the faith anymore, it's going to make that distance come up and the walls go up. And then the next time I see them, I'll become a project for them to work on because I'm People who, people for whom their faith is as important as it was to me and as it is to everybody else, you can't just leave it alone. It's not something you can just agree to disagree on. You're burdened with a responsibility to change the person back to being what you are. Like, it's your responsibility as a Christian, certainly an evangelical Christian, to never be happy, never satisfied with a person being outside the faith. It's your job to work on that person for the rest of their lives. And I know that burden, so I recognize it, and I don't want to give it to people. I don't want to start that whole project. So I circumnavigate it. I try a different, change the subject, do something else. Learn to say the right things so that they hear what they want to hear, and we can move on and get on with our day. And I hate doing that, but it's just a part of how it has to go. And Now that my girls are old enough, we can have these conversations more honestly. And I really appreciate that. But as time goes on, I'm becoming connected to more and more people through my work. And I have to do it all over again. I have to be careful to tiptoe around some of these topics. But they're very heavy handed about it. Because for them it's too important to their daily life to not bring it up all the time. So it's

katrina_1_04-21-2024_092720: 17:09

by everyone around them.

neil_1_04-21-2024_102720: 17:11

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

katrina_1_04-21-2024_092720: 17:12

mean.

neil_1_04-21-2024_102720: 17:12

Yeah. Somebody at work a couple of weeks ago. Um, it's kind of funny. There was this movie. I think it's called Brighton Beach Memoirs by Neil Simon, playwright. And whenever the mother, she was a Jewish mother living in New Jersey, whenever she would mention an illness, she would whisper it. She wouldn't say cancer. She would say cancer, because she didn't, She was afraid it would jinx her and she'd end up getting it. Well, at my work, when somebody mentions that somebody's an atheist, and I only know of one that's connected to somebody, and she said he's an atheist, she whispered it, you know, because she didn't want to catch it, too. And I thought she didn't need to know about me, because then they're not going to want to talk to me anymore, or they're going to make me their new project. And I just, I don't want to do that. So I've gotten to where I don't even like the word, because when people hear the word atheist, what they hear is anti theist. Like you said,

katrina_1_04-21-2024_092720: 18:04

hmm.

neil_1_04-21-2024_102720: 18:04

and I'm not an anti theist because the fact of the matter is I've tried living without God and it sucks sometimes because God works, you know, God works or he does for a lot of people. He did for me for a long time, but got to the point where he didn't anymore. It just, it was no longer where I was. I feel like in a way I outgrew the belief system, but it's not because I found something better. It's not because I found better coping mechanisms or more explanatory power other than, you know, science asks good questions, but you get as many more questions as you get answers. And growing up religious, you want just the opposite. You want more and more answers until you've got mostly answers. I'm the opposite now. I'm looking for better and better questions that I know aren't going to be answered immediately. So I've got a different orientation entirely. But I remember what it was like to have That satisfaction, that comfort of going to bed at night believing that somebody was watching over me and was going to make sure that my path was guided. And I do not fault anyone for benefiting from that. It's, to me, it's almost like finding out there's somebody that's on a certain antidepressant that just works perfectly for them. Like they found the right one and now they're functioning fine. To me, that's what faith is. Faith is like a treatment that takes care of a lot of people's needs, but it doesn't work for everybody. And I got to the point where it didn't work for me anymore.

katrina_1_04-21-2024_092720: 19:35

Yeah. You had too many bad side effects,

neil_1_04-21-2024_102720: 19:37

Yeah. Yeah.

katrina_1_04-21-2024_092720: 19:38

you know? Yeah there was something that I wanted to go back to because I think it was really important. Oh, yes, where people will view you as a project. So there was somebody that I attempted to date who was an evangelical Christian. And I'm in a very interesting space in my life right now where I You know, post deconversion, you go through that anger phase, where you get just really pissed off that, you would believe something that wasn't true for so long. but once that, the dust settled on that and I like got over that anti theist phase, I found that I really missed spirituality, you know, and so I integrate spirituality back into my life through different forms, whether that's like I believe in like the universe and energy and, Tarot, things like that, for me, I have a lot of space because I think that we're all talking about the same thing. Like I feel like I've reached this different level of we all are talking about the same thing. It's just, we're using different language. So for me, it's like, you're using God, you're using Allah, you're using the universe, whatever. You're using science, maybe even. So. For me getting into a relationship with someone who is evangelical. I was like, I have space for that. Be who you are. I love that you're passionate about this.

neil_1_04-21-2024_102720: 20:54

But do they have space for it?

katrina_1_04-21-2024_092720: 20:55

No, no, they don't. It is not the same. And it was really challenging because there was a switch that would flip in him where, he would be very passionate and very understanding and empathetic of where I was and wanted that space because we really liked each other. But then something would happen,

neil_1_04-21-2024_102720: 21:17

back into shape.

katrina_1_04-21-2024_092720: 21:18

something snaps. And it was like, to me, it felt like. a possession in a way where he was just like overtaken, right? Where he had to fix and heal me.

neil_1_04-21-2024_102720: 21:29

A script kicks in.

katrina_1_04-21-2024_092720: 21:31

Yes, the script. Oh my gosh. And I would talk about my religious trauma and he would immediately say, oh, well, that's not Jesus. And I'm like, it's not Jesus. I'm literally describing the Bible, like literally, And I think for me, what was traumatizing about that was not being seen. And I feel like in your life right now, you're not being seen either,

neil_1_04-21-2024_102720: 21:52

No, you're right.

katrina_1_04-21-2024_092720: 21:53

You have to wear a mask.

neil_1_04-21-2024_102720: 21:56

my goal in life now is for people to find enough things they do like about me without finding out the thing they don't, that they can still treat me like I'm a normal human being. Like a functioning human being. The moment they find out the thing they don't like, everything else that they liked about me, Goes out the window immediately. It changes everything. I see physical changes in the person you like they become the body language changes, they become defensive looking, um, or they'll turn on the super sweetness selling point kind of position. They turn into a salesperson and I liked it better when they were just relaxed. And not trying to make something happen with me, but again, there's that burden that kicks in. I don't have a burden to make other people be like me and think the same way as me. That's not how I operate, but I was taught to be that way. Originally I was taught that everybody's supposed to be what I am. And you find somebody who's not, you need to try to make them and that really is a toxic presence in relationships. And I wish I could tell that to people, but they don't see it as toxic. They think if there's something toxic about it, I'm the problem. verse in one of Paul's letters where he says we are everywhere we go, we're spreading the aroma of the knowledge of Jesus. To some it's a great smell, and to others it stinks. And so what they hear is, oh, you're one of the ones it stinks to because your nose is broken. But that's not what it is. I'm seeing dysfunctional elements these coping mechanisms and in their belief system that's making them, instead of developing Real ways of dealing with problems and progressing as a human being and growing. They're staying stagnant Emotionally because they're not developing new skills. They're just going back to the same things over and over again Like somebody hitting a drug that always works for them You don't have to develop any real skills if you've got a drug that works. It's an escape It's a way to not have to deal with things So to me, that's the function that faith plays for a lot of people. And again, they don't see it that way. They think it's working because it makes them feel better. Yeah, that's what drugs do.

katrina_1_04-21-2024_092720: 24:08

Yeah. Yeah, I actually just watched this thing from Dr. Romany. I don't know if you've heard of her, but she does a lot of work with narcissistic abuse survivors. And I watched this reel where she was talking about a true sign of mental stability is flexibility. So people who are more rigid, and I found this to be so true in my practice and in my personal growth, is that the, if there is an area of rigidity around something, something's wrong. Um, there is a fear around that. So what you're telling me is, in your life through this journey, you, you've been flexible the whole time, asking questions and going places and seeing where it takes you. I think whenever people get, into sometimes that deep evangelical side of things. It's their fear that comes out, like their fear of us going to hell. And that was something that the guy that I was talking to I had to try to explain to him. I was like, it's your fear. Like what you're doing is selfish. I'm happy where I'm at. And he was like, well, but you'd be happy with Jesus. I'm like, but I'm, I actually am really

neil_1_04-21-2024_102720: 25:13

It's not your job to tell

katrina_1_04-21-2024_092720: 25:14

with Jesus. Yeah. But it's so difficult when you are taught that you have to be that all the time, and you have to change everyone around you. And the people that I have found who really embody the Jesus that I saw in the Bible are the people who are fluid, the people who say, Be as you are. I'm gonna show you love exactly as you are no matter what. And so I find it ironic that the evangelical side of it is like you have to be as I am. When that's not what Jesus did at all.,you know, he just said, Hey, follow me if you want. Let me model something beautiful for you. And I think on the human side of it, it's very, it is so traumatizing in any way to have somebody come to you and say who you are is not enough.

neil_1_04-21-2024_102720: 26:02

Sure. Absolutely.

katrina_1_04-21-2024_092720: 26:04

it sounds like you still live in that space and you've been living in that space.

neil_1_04-21-2024_102720: 26:09

Mm hmm. Long time.

katrina_1_04-21-2024_092720: 26:11

going deeper into those like core beliefs about who you are, where are you at with that now? What has that journey been like?

neil_1_04-21-2024_102720: 26:21

Well, I think one of the things I've had to do is come to grips with the fact that if anything is going to get better about my life, I have to do it. That's one of the main things which I think is part of growing up. You know, when you're younger, you've always got somebody else that can bail you out when you mess up, somebody comes in and cleans up your messes, helps you sort through what your problems are, but you get to the point where I am in life and it's up to me, if I can't do it, it doesn't get done, it's kind of like the dishes, if I don't wash the dishes, nobody's going to do it. Cause I'm, you know, Here by myself. The kids aren't going to do it. They're going to go back home when they're done. My girls come see me and we, we have dinner together a good bit. But, if I don't do the work, the emotional work, it's not going to get done. Nobody else is going to do it for me. So, that's one of those things you have to go to bed and wake up and realize, if I don't get started, it's never going to get done. And I'll always be in the same negative patterns. If I'm depressed, it's never going to get better. I mean, yeah, you can go get therapy. Um, and you can sometimes get treatment, sometimes get medication, but it's not always going to get rid of everything because probably what there is there's work to be done to establish better routines, better habits, better habits of thinking. And all that takes work, it takes work and it takes mistakes and it's all that much harder if everyone that you are connected with, nobody knows how to do that either because they all have their. their. crutches, so to speak, whether it's their medications or specific relationships they depend on, whether that's God or anybody else, or their church, again, if it works for them they're getting by and they feel fairly happy, but again, so do people on drugs while they're on them, you know, like it, it works. And I don't have that. So for me, the hard part is building the better skills to, you know, discipline myself to do things like try to eat better, try to go to bed at a good time, try to build relationships with people that are healthy to be around, which is hard because if you live in a place where all the connections that you would make are through religion, through church or other things like that, then you're pretty isolated. I think for the most part, where I live, you have to have some kind of a hobby that other people are into, whether you're a runner or a swimmer. Well, there's not a whole lot of groups for swimmers, honestly, but whatever your thing is, you do for fun. Some people go to conferences for whatever their personal interests are, but that's just a once in a while thing. I saw a Reddit thread over the past week that asked, what do you do if you're moving to an area like from Oregon, for example, to Mississippi, because somebody's doing that soon. She said, how am I going to make friends? What's the culture shock going to be like? Fortunately, she's from Eastern Oregon, which it turns out is a lot like Mississippi. Because, like I've said many times, once you get about 30 minutes outside of any major city, you're back in the Bible Belt. It's not just about being in the Deep South. So she can relate to it to some degree. But somebody said, why don't you go to some of these conventions where there's cosplayers and stuff like that? Because it tends to be a lot of folks who are looking for other avenues to connect with people that isn't church. People who have strong imaginations. People that love fantasy novels. People that, in a different life, they would have been very, very religious. And maybe they were at one point because they have very strong imaginations. And that's one of the Best qualities of person of faith is if they have a really good imagination, because in my opinion, the relationship has to be created on your side and the people who are the best at it are the ones who know how to envision a whole person, with all the different functions of a personality, but once that's gone, they go into fantasy, they go into other kinds of entertainment difference being they know it's not real, but they still enjoy it and they end up connecting with a lot of other people who have similar And similar values in that they're supportive of people just doing what is fun and harmless, because it's good for them to be able to connect with other people with similar interests. So there's always things you can try out, but it's hard. It's hard definitely when nobody around you is going to be in that category. So you end up with a lot of virtual relationships. And I think that's been one of the hardest things for me. Um, all of. My, my romantic life has been mostly virtual, probably for about, how many years now? Seven, about seven years. Um, and it's just because it's not that easy to be connected to people around here, you know. So,

katrina_1_04-21-2024_092720: 30:42

Mm hmm. You know what, I think I just realized as you were saying all of this is that you are still in the trauma space. I don't know why this just hit me,

neil_1_04-21-2024_102720: 30:57

it's, it's fairly fair to say.

katrina_1_04-21-2024_092720: 31:00

what I find interesting is that, when I ask a question about what are some of the trauma stories that you, like your core beliefs that you have about yourself, you immediately went to how am I coping with them?

neil_1_04-21-2024_102720: 31:09

Mm hmm. Mm

katrina_1_04-21-2024_092720: 31:10

of naming the things. And that's something that whenever I work with people who remain in abusive relationships, right? like say, like when I've worked with teens who have parents who are abusive, right? And they just, they can't leave. They're not abusive enough for them to be taken out, right? Um, that there is like this this fear of touching. the stuff. Because I don't know if, and this may not be true, and I'm not trying to psychoanalyze you though, I kind of do think that way as a human. That's why my, it's my fucking job. Um, it is what I do, but I also just care about you as a friend too, but I think it's really interesting because there are some places that when you're still in it, you can't go. If we were to really unpack the stories that you have been taught about who you are, I would imagine that it would be really fucking heavy. and difficult for you to cope through that because you don't have that support. Thankfully, where I'm at and the work that I've done and the people that I've been able to put myself around because of my location, um, and because of my family being so supportive of me even though they don't agree I'm so incredibly grateful for them for that. I'm able to talk about those core beliefs that I took away, like for me, the biggest one is that I am unworthy of love. I mean, I was literally told at church, you are unworthy without Jesus, like you're unworthy without a man, and so me, especially me as a woman, oh my gosh, there are so many traumas that I took away regarding my sexuality, my body, my ability to speak, you

neil_1_04-21-2024_102720: 32:43

not starting a family, and you're a woman, then what are you here for? Right? Like, that's the way

katrina_1_04-21-2024_092720: 32:49

what are you?

neil_1_04-21-2024_102720: 32:50

that's the way some of them think, honestly.

katrina_1_04-21-2024_092720: 32:53

Yeah. Yeah. And it's just, it's very, it's very challenging, you know, and I imagine being in your shoes, right? Like being the head of the household, right? And that is your responsibility. You are according to the Bible and in a sense, I mean, there's a verse about, like if your wife is. It's not, doesn't believe in God that they're like in a way saved by you sort of, or something like that. I don't

neil_1_04-21-2024_102720: 33:22

There's a couple of verses like that.

katrina_1_04-21-2024_092720: 33:24

Yeah.

neil_1_04-21-2024_102720: 33:25

But there's also one that says that if a man is not able to well, if you're not able to be the spiritual leader of your family, then you're useless. It's your main function. Yeah.

katrina_1_04-21-2024_092720: 33:35

So how has that impacted your alone time? Like if you're comfortable sharing that, you know, like as a man, I mean that is in religion in the Christian religion specifically, that is the ultimate failure. You have let your family down.

neil_1_04-21-2024_102720: 33:52

I don't know. Yeah, it's definitely traumatizing.

33:55

If my purpose as a man is to provide for a family and to be a spiritual leader, then not being able to have that function is, it's a kind of impotence, actually. It's, it's a fundamental undermining of who you're supposed to be. My way of functioning around that has just been to, to do the best I can to provide for my family. I've remained supportive of their faith throughout. Their whole lives. There were a lot of years where uh, I made sure that the kids were where they wanted to be at church. If they had camps they were going to, if they had Bible drill, if you know what that is. All kinds of different, just occupations with the church. I made sure that I got them to everything they wanted to be a part of and was always supportive of that. And I continue to be supportive of that'cause I know what it means to them. Again, they don't have to be like me. That's not what I need. Now, yes, I get judged for not being a part of those things myself. But there is a limit to my inauthenticity. When I was a believer, still, for the lack of a better way to put it, that authenticity was really important to me then, too. So, I didn't like anybody who said things just to say them. Because it's what people wanted to hear. To me, that was gross, and I'm not going to be one of those people as much as I can, as much as I can do anything about it. There are certain circumstances where I feel like I have to compromise how I have to respond to a situation because I know that everybody else in the room is going to be thinking a certain way. And I'm not going to contradict that and undermine it. For example, when the big family gets together, all the cousins and aunts and uncles and siblings, there's always a big prayer. We always hold hands and bow our heads and pray. And I bow my head and I listen. And I say amen at the end, because I'm not going to be that person that sits there like, I'm not doing this. I do what I can to be supportive. Why not? Yeah. Because it would undermine their experience of the moment. And it, again, distance. It creates a distance. The only way to not be disconnected from the room is to do what they're doing to the best of my ability. And I don't have to feel the same things they're feeling when they pray, but I can at least do the things you're supposed to do when the group is praying. That's not a difficult thing for me to do. That's not asking for that much. Now, if the opposite were done, if the reverse, where. A room full of believers were asked to somehow do something to validate or acknowledge non belief. That will never happen. So obviously, it's been a normal part of my life for a long time that it's not going to be symmetrical. And once you realize that's always the way it's going to be, you just learn to deal with it. You just learn to see that as the norm. Could I relocate and go somewhere else? Sure. But then I'd be away from my children. In a way, am I still in the trauma space? Yes. But the difference is I'm choosing to be there. Knowing what I'm doing and to me that makes a difference. I know it could still be seen as Unhealthy for me to be in a place where I'm not being validated and who I am, but I'm validating myself Because I know that I'm gonna continue to stay engaged with everyone that I love And these difficulties are not going to keep me from being able to do it. And to me, that's a small victory. Maybe not a small victory. I've been able to overcome this by finding ways to stay connected. Take, for example, my daughters. One of the things we love to do is watch movies together. And when the time they were small, They always had to be more animated stuff, and because at least two of them are art majors, we still have animated movies. But we were big Pixar fans. We always watched everything as soon as it came out in the theater. And that's one of those things that's been a major part of our life. We would always go see movies, and we'd watch them together, and it was a bonding experience. Like, it's something for us to do together that they all loved. That was neutral, a neutral meeting ground. And we've invested in those things. Like they went with me one time, speaking of cosplay conventions, they went with me to dragon con in Atlanta one year. That was an interesting experience, but we had a good time, you know, and we do stuff like that because we find ways to connect that don't have to be about the faith. So there's ways around this and they've done a really good job of, I think, rolling with it too, and not being too judgmental towards me, at least. No, I haven't heard it, um, and over the years, there've been times where they've tried to nudge me back into the faith because again, that's their responsibility and they, they love me. So of course they want me to have the same faith that they have, but they eventually got to the point where they just realized they had said what they wanted to say and I showed appreciation for their care and um, nothing changed. So they just let it drop because they're learning too. In a way, each of those relationships is benefiting from us being, from us working as hard as we can to stay connected despite these differences. So, there's definitely ways to continue to do things together. And I'm proud of what we've done. Others might see it as too much. We do a lot of stuff together, me and the girls. I could move somewhere else and make more money. I could move somewhere else and find more people that I can get along with. But I don't want to because I love my children and they're here. So again, that element of choice to me makes it feel like less of a, I'm not trapped, you know, I'm not trapped and not when I choose to be where I am and that that just makes a difference. Sure. Yeah, it makes me think of the people that I've worked with who are And I don't, this isn't a fair comparison and I recognize that because I don't think that religious people have ill intentions most gen There are some in every group. There are some. Most that I know don't. But most, yeah, most that I know just genuinely are good people. But it reminds me of people being in abusive relationships and staying in them for the children. And a lot of people will not understand that. And I, there are pros and cons to everything. And so for you, the cons outweigh the pros on moving, for sure. And so, because that's the case, you have to navigate the environment that you're in. You know what I mean? Right. And so, for your ability to do that and still maintain connection with others, outside of just your daughters, you have to, in a way, go along with the cultural traditions and just keep that going. So do you feel like your internal world is pretty stable? For In a sense, like, on your belief in yourself and knowing yourself, is that a pretty stable place? Yeah, I think so. I've given a lot of thought to all this because I'm naturally a naval gazer. And I found myself, for example, when I was thinking about how to help other people to go through trauma of different kinds. And many of them end up turning to, like, alcohol, for example. It's just a way to numb yourself. A lot of other options, too, but the ones that are more addictive tend to lead to destructive behaviors. But if you seek help for something like alcoholism, You always end up getting back to the higher power concept because that's what Alcoholics Anonymous does and a lot of other treatment programs do that. It's got to be a higher power. And so I've often struggled with the idea of how would I help others find a higher power that's not one that they don't believe in? And the answer is in a way you become your own higher power. As you grow, because if we can use metaphors for other things, then why not use it for this? You could imagine that there is a future version of you, that you haven't met yet, but every once in a while they show up. Just, it's a faint thing, and this is the version of you that's already gotten past all the struggles that you haven't figured out yet. And they're constantly trying to reach back and communicate to you, almost like that future version of your self fantasy that shows up one day and gets a chance to talk to you. Well, in a way, we're always doing that. Every day, there's versions of ourselves that are trying to communicate with us, metaphorically speaking. It's really just us. I think in the show Westworld, they had a situation like that, where the, in the first season, at the end, one of the main characters, who was actually synthetic, she began to realize that the person she was talking to in her head was actually her. She was always assuming it was somebody else, but it was actually, did I just do a thumbs up? That's weird. The version of her that was still in development was what was communicating with her. And one day it came, she came to realize that it was just her. And I think that's what we're doing is I think that we're always in conversation with parts of ourselves. I'm fascinated with the concept of internal family systems, where you see different parts of yourself as constantly in communication. So like the other day, I was having to talk to the staff at the nursing home where I work about the weed problem. If you work in rural Mississippi and you have a lot of relatively lower paid workers, they're going to be weed lovers. And it's something that we have to deal with, um, cause we provide primary care, like direct care to people medically. And I told them, I said, look, As a policy, we can't say what you can and can't do in your free time, because we can't. I mean, even in Mississippi where it's not legal recreationally. But I said, but you have to get to a point where you parent yourself. You have to get to a point where you look at yourself and sometimes tell yourself no. Because there's this other thing that you need to do. And it's a bigger deal, like you have to keep your job, or you're having to provide direct care to residents who are fragile. And if you come in and you're not a hundred percent, you could hurt somebody. There's things that I'm trying to get them to understand, but parenting yourself is one of those things that I feel like we're constantly doing. We're constantly having to deal with our own pieces of ourselves. And one of the things that I love about the movies that I've watched with the girls, Is that they came to love Spider Man, the Spider Man franchise in particular, which I always loved as a kid. But where they've gone with that film series is fascinating because they took the concept of a multiverse where you run into different versions of yourself. Only in the case of Spider Man, instead of some evil version showing up, it's trying to destroy everything, which seems to be what everybody else does with the storyline. In the Spider Man version, it's, they're all versions of Peter Parker, and they're just sweet, nice guys. So, there's points in the movie, in No Way Home, where they just sit there, and they're just building each other up, and having encouraging conversations, and one of them's down on himself, and he's like, don't say that about yourself, that's not true, you're awesome. And I thought, what a cool idea, that you could meet versions of yourself, and they actually liked you. And we're encouraging you and wanting you to do better because they they know another way to deal with what you're dealing with I feel like that's accessible to us. I feel like we have The ability to organize the parts of ourselves and make them get along. And yes, it's all metaphorical, but most of the things we understand, we have to do through metaphors. So why not that one? Oh my gosh. I like that a lot. It's so brilliant. I seriously love that so much because I, I do too. I use a lot of internal family systems and shadow work in therapy and in just my personal life, cause that's just how I view the world. But yeah, I love that like metaverse. version of what are the different parts of me. So it sounds like you've been able to go internal with all of this because it was an internal deconversion in itself, right? Like the whole process of religion is very internal. It's a very personal thing. And you've maintained that throughout the whole span of your life. It sounds like where you're still in the process of reparenting and. Learning every bit of you and recognizing that, if, and tell me if this is wrong, but recognizing that people who are religious and are saying like, oh, you have failed your family. That's just a them thing. That's a them belief. That's a them perception of you when you value authenticity. So deconverting was a part of that process of being who you are, which makes you a great father. And here's, here's one of the things about becoming a grownup. is you go through all these moments where you realize that your parents weren't entirely wrong. There are times when, honestly, my dad, who, we're getting ready to go celebrate his 75th birthday here in about half an hour, he said things to me that made me mad, said things to me that I felt later that he shouldn't have said. But the older I've gotten, the more I've had to go back and realize that some of the things he said Were right like I don't like the way he said them I'm still mad at him for the way he said them, but he wasn't wrong He wasn't 100 percent wrong and so being a grown up to me is it involves learning how to realize when our parents were actually right and So that part of me that judges me for letting my family break up That doesn't go away. It's never going to go away. I'm always going to be in conversation with that voice in my head that said, you shouldn't let that happen. And it's a source of constant pain whenever I tap into it. But I'm, it's like a familiar friend at this point. You know, there's some kinds of pain that you just, you might as well give it a nickname and because you're kind of buds, you just learn to be in the same room together. And that's the kind of thing for me is that's a pain that I know that at certain levels, I could have done something different. I don't know what I would have done. It would have unfolded slightly differently. Yeah. But I did the best I could at the time, which means that when I, those parts of me start talking to each other, compassion has to come in, self compassion, where I look back on who I was 10 years ago, and I say, It's okay to admit that that was a wrong decision, this one here. I wish I'd done that different. But I also can't beat myself up for it because I can't fix it now, and the chances are ten years ago I was doing the best with what I understood at the time. If you go put yourself back in that position and show a little self compassion for your younger self, you realize that you just didn't know what else to do. And I feel the same way now, because parenting has done that for me, as well as teaching for 23 years, which meant parenting other people's kids. Comes to a point where you have to learn that balance between saying, this isn't a good idea, it's unhealthy, don't do it, but also don't beat yourself up for it, because there's no point. Just learn from it and try to move on. That's a healthier way to do it, and I had to do that with myself, because otherwise you're just gonna sit there in a spiral, and just, God, I don't know. Dark cloud over your head all the time. I can't live like that. There's too many people that need me I really don't feel like I have the option of dwelling. So I deal with it I'm honest with myself and I say yeah, that was dumb. I wish I didn't do that. I wish I did that different but Now let's move on don't make that mistake again in the future. That's all I can do because I can't go backwards Yeah, do you ever name your parts? Do they have actual names? Because mine do. No? Do they? Yeah. Like totally different names? Yeah, totally different names. I think I'd give them, I'd give them roles. Okay. I'd give them the names of roles, you know? Like I feel like there's an inner child, and there's an inner, there's an inner saboteur. Like when your life is not going well, and you don't know how to fix it, so some part of you just starts Doing things wrong on purpose. Mm-Hmm. Just to ruin everything. It's like that disaffected teenager in the family that just decides to screw everything up because they're so unhappy. Well, I've got that in me. Mm-Hmm. That makes dumb decisions. I don't give it a name except it's the saboteur. Yeah. You know, I give it a No, that's the name. Yeah. Give it a roll. I love that. Yeah. I the one of, one of the ones that stands out the most to me for my names. Not that this is relevant, but you guys may like it, is Regina. So, for anybody who's ever watched Once Upon a Time, have you seen it? It's a, it's a show where they like, all the fairytale creatures because of the evil queen, like Snow White's evil queen, like, they put them in America. And she brainwashes all of hot, too. She's so hot, yes. And I make sure She's quite hot. My, that part of me is hot, too. So that's like my vengeful, venomous side. And what you find Spoiler alert since we're giving spoilers today is that Regina is just really sad and she is running around and she is trying to get revenge to take away her sadness and that is exactly what my venomous side is. And so I'm like, that's my Regina. She's coming out again. This hot, fiery beast of a woman. Regina, my first thought was Regina George. Oh, that too. But, yeah. It's another Regina. That is another Regina. The burn book. Yeah. I learned a lot from Regina George actually. I think I may have dated a Regina George once. Yeah. Incredibly manipulative. But. Well. Yeah. I learned a lot from movies. But yeah, you're right. So you've got roles that you, you name as well. Yeah. Yep. I think it's helpful. Oh, go ahead. I was just saying it's helpful that, um, again, part of me sort of bristles with the idea of making stuff up as a way of understanding ourselves. But then again, you go back and realize that from my perspective, I had a relationship with an imaginary person for decades, and it was like a fulfilling relationship with a person that I now believe I, Made in my own head. So if I was able to do that for 20 plus years, then why can't I do that with myself? You know, why can't I just go ahead and use different metaphors to understand who I am? And I think that's what internal family systems is. I've never studied it But that's what it sounds like it is and it's one of those things that just seems right to me as a useful way of trying to deal with Like you said, internal trauma and growth. Yeah, absolutely. And it reminds me too, when I was in grad school that I don't remember the research study or anything. So y'all don't quote me on this. Maybe try to find it. But basically there was a research study where they were doing a brain scan of people who were praying versus people who were meditating and it lit up the same part of the brain. And so prayer is a very beautiful thing. And so I love what you just said that we're just, we're using different language for the same stuff, right? Like you created this beautiful thing inside of you and now you can still access that. And that was a realization that I came to myself as well when it came to spirituality, where I was like, I miss it. being in church and having that music play and that just the butterflies coming up and just like just praising God, right? Like I, that complete awe and appreciation and grace. Gratitude. And now. It's therapeutic. It's very therapeutic. And now I do that by myself. Where I'm alone in a room and I'm just like, gosh, I just, I love that I got my human that I got. That this is the girl that I got that's been there with me through every step of the way. And for me, that's healed my religious trauma that I have. And it sounds like you were on the same path as well. I'm on the path. I'm nowhere near that. I'm working on liking myself. I end up having to spend a lot of time with myself, as it turns out. Because again, isolation. Right. So, if I don't learn to get along with myself, I'm kind of screwed. Because I'm stuck with this person. So, I have to find ways to like myself. Whether it's natural or not. And again, that's a skill. That's a skill. I think I can be very funny. I entertain myself all the time. Yeah. I take myself out to movies sometimes, go on dates with myself. Yeah. I love it. Yeah. And I, it's part of the journey. And maybe that'll be something that we talk about in the future as friends off the air. But my path to getting here was really beautiful and it was painful and hard and I had to go to some depths, but it sounds like you're already on that path. You're going to get there. It's just not giving up. We'll see. You'll do good. You'll do good. And just keeping yourself, even if it's virtual around people who, and this is for everybody listening, putting yourself around people who have done the work and people who are a step ahead of you, because I think that that is the best teaching agent is somebody who's walked through that path. And I was so, so lucky with the therapists that I've worked with, especially my current therapist, Jason, he's. It's absolutely freaking incredible and he gave me heads up on, okay, here's what's going to come next. Now that you just hit this next pivotal point, here's what you can expect is going to come up for you and you're going to start losing friends and all of this stuff is going to happen. And I think that's so important to have, but so anyways, regardless, I think that I'm just so proud of you and how far you've come. In the past 10 years. I think that I just, I feel so, so lucky to have met you and that you let me interview you that one day. Um, so it's been so long ago, but it was just, it's been such a great thing. I've learned so much from you. You've helped me a lot with getting through my religious trauma, especially the time that we talked about my fear of hell. Where even after I didn't believe in hell, I still had that fear and I still to this day will have weird, like, moments where I don't want to say things out loud. It doesn't go away very, very easily. And it's funny how long after people lose every other version or Part of their faith the fear of the hell and the punishment sticks around like a zombie Like literally a zombie it has no more connection to their belief system But it just won't go because it's really connected to like their limbic system Like that's the thing about scaring people to death is it sticks with them long after there's any reasons to think that way anymore That's just how fear works. Yeah, absolutely. That's why it keeps getting used so, so much. And you got to teach your nervous system that you're safe and re expose yourself. I will intentionally say things out loud that I'm scared to say out loud to just be like, we're cool, we're safe, man. Train yourself that there's no lightning to hit you. No, it's just exposure therapy. But I actually went through this whole time period where I did like a handful of things that I knew would make God mad. Mm, yeah. I just waited to see if anything would happen and nothing happened. And I realized that, oh yeah, but the thing is, I wanted something to happen. Yeah. I'm sorry, this is a terrible analogy to have to pull out because I don't know what it says about me, but in the Twilight books, I love Twilight. Yeah, it turns out it was kind of fun to read. Bella is so desperate for Edward to show up again. That she takes up dangerous hobbies, and she knows she's not supposed to do it. She knows it's probably going to hurt her. She just doesn't care. She wants, she's desperate to make him show up. I did that. I did dumb things to try to make God show up and nothing happened. And I know all the explanations for why that's not supposed to be, you're not supposed to test God. But then you look at another verse that says you are supposed to test God. So pick your verse. But yeah, I've done that before. And thankfully I'm past all that. But I do remember that time period. Sure. Yeah, it was absolutely devastating for me as well to lose God. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I think people who are religious don't understand is he died for me. He died And there was a whole grief process that I went through and I feel like I'm on the other side of the grief process And I found deeper meaning which is like the final stage of grief. It's a sixth stage And so I think it's there's a lot of hope out there. So if you're somebody who is Struggling with religious trauma. I really think that Neal what you were saying like just taking that path down path of re parenting yourself is so important. And going into that internal garden and seeing what has been planted, what was planted before you had to say what you've planted yourself and you pick out the stuff you want to keep or the stuff you'd want to throw away. And you keep the stuff you want to keep. And I use that Nagoski. So just pointing that one out from her book, come as you are, but yeah, have you ever seen the movie annihilation? Bye. Mm mm. I don't think so. Great movie. Oh, God. I love that movie, Annihilation. Very deep. But there's a scene where one of the women's speaking to Natalie Portman's character, and she says she had lost her daughter. Her daughter had died. And she said, really, there's two bereavements. First is mourning the loss of your beautiful child, and then the next one is the loss of who you were before, when they were still around. And that really hit me because I get that. It's not just that I lost God. I lost me. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. And a new me had to emerge out of that. So yeah, it's, it's at least a double loss back to the layers again. So many, so many losses from it, but it takes a while to deal with it. It does. It does. And it's worth it though. It's worth putting in the work of healing that stuff, even if you remain religious and there are still religious traumas that come from that, because I have encountered clients who still believe in God, but then there are certain things that they take away in a negative space of like having immense shame, which I can't speak on what religion wants to give you, but I would imagine that the religions that speak in love, or claim to speak in love, that that's not what they're trying to get you to take away. Because I think there's still a lot of beauty in religion. All of them. All the mythologies, all, everything. So. And you can always go be an Episcopalian because they'll take everybody. There you go. Yeah. Yeah. They're not mean at all. But as we wrap this up, I don't know, is there anything final that you want to say as far as any tips for somebody who's experiencing religious trauma or going through a deconversion? I think most people going through it probably naturally do the same things that I did, and that's the best advice, which is to reach out online and find people that way. Um, and I think everybody who's going through things of various kinds are doing the same thing. They're finding communities they can connect with that are virtual, and it's a start. Because it gives you somebody to validate your feelings when you can't really talk to anybody else around you. In a way, the internet's been a wonderful thing for that. But I have a love hate relationship with the internet as well, because those same people that you meet might also be awful people you don't know. It just takes a while to sort through it all. I think my main thing is just that when you do get around people, to notice if the person drains you, Or makes you feel better when you're done being with them. And to me, that's one of the biggest things is just to learn to recognize when I'm with that person, I feel better about my life afterwards. I feel hopeful. I feel connected. I feel even rested and feel better about myself. Whereas with him and this person, I always feel worse afterwards and it drains me. And I think you should make a note of that, a mental note and try to be around the ones that are healthy influence on you. And that don't drain you, but make you feel more full when you're done being with them. That to me is, I think, one of the main things I look for is people of whatever stripe. I don't care who they are. Around here, the people I relate to the most are gay men. I'm not a gay man, but I get them. Because number one, they tend to be more emotionally intelligent than the other guys around here. All they want to do is hunt and fish. And watch football and they also know what it's like to be outcasts. They know what it's like that just being who they are is wrong somehow to everybody. And I can relate to that. I can relate to that a lot. So I learned to find the people who can identify with what it's like being somebody that you're not supposed to be. That's my people. Yeah. Find your people. Even if it's just one or two at a time. Great advice. Yeah, absolutely. I love that. So if people want to find you and they want like more information on you because you have a podcast as well I know yeah, you're like I'm trying not to be found out but they're hiding there are some avenues So, can you share with them if they want to learn more from you? Sure, you can always Google Neil Carter or Godless and Dixie is the name that I used for a long time And I still will at some point use it again. The podcast is the Godless and Dixie podcast Honestly, all I did mostly was just read some of my favorite posts at the time as a recording rather than doing a conversation Which I wish I did. I wish I did something like this I just didn't have the time and organizational power to make it happen But someday it might Especially once I get more of a better footing in the new industry, I'm trying to work in because long term cares is a lot to learn and it could greatly. undermine my work if my past identity becomes too present for them. But I also want those resources to still be there. And I have a book or two that I wanted to have published, but COVID happened and too many other things were going on. I think I took my 50 of my favorite posts and put them together and someday I'm going to publish them. Put those out there and publish. But also the platforms that I wrote for came and went, like Patheos was one, and it changed gears because the Mormons bought them out. And then a new group started called Only Sky, and they've been recently purchased as well. So I'm kind of moving around a bit, but the content is still there. You can just Google Godless and Dixie, and there's a handful of videos, and there's a whole bunch of posts about everything under the sun, and they're still out there. One of these days, I'll get them put up again in a new platform. So just Google that. Awesome. I also was looking over because I have your book that you were in called Parenting Beyond Belief. Oh, yeah, I love that book. Yeah. Dale McGowan is kind of one of my heroes. He's moved on to fighting for democracy now. He's got a new project, but he's a great editor, and he did this book that's everybody's advice about parenting. I got to cover the one where, what do you do if your kids are strong believers and you're not? Mm hmm. Yeah. I had plenty to say about that. Yes, you did. All right. So, you guys, check him out. His stuff is awesome. Also, look up that video. What was it? Interviewing atheists? At church day? At church. So good. One of my favorite ones. That guy, that guy did a great job. That could have only happened because the pastor was so good. Concerned about having the right tone. I really appreciate him doing that. Yeah, I thought it was so incredibly respectful on both ends I thought it was such a great job a beautiful blend of differing beliefs. All right Thank you so much for coming on here. Seriously. This has been wonderful. Thanks Katrina Thank you guys so much for listening. As a reminder, this is not therapeutic advice or a substitute for therapy. I am a therapist, but I'm not your therapist. So, if you're looking for a therapist in your area, check out the links below. There are several different therapist directories that you can check out such as psychology today. Dot com good therapy.org and therapy. den.com. Thanks again for listening. And don't forget to hit that subscribe button. See you next time.