Doing Divorce Right By Chief PeaceKeeper™ Scott Levin

Role of Mediation in High-Conflict Divorce and Custody Explained

• Scott Levin Divorce Mediation Attorney

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I’m Scott Levin, a seasoned high conflict divorce attorney in California, joined by Brook Olsen, a high-conflict divorce coach, to share our commitment to collaborative divorce solutions. Whether navigating challenges like narcissism or other personality complexities, we believe that a cooperative mediation for divorce process approach to resolution is almost always better than adversarial litigation.

In our discussion, we address skepticism surrounding mediation in high-conflict situations. By integrating strategic coaching and fostering a deep understanding of each partner's journey, we illustrate how seemingly insurmountable disputes can evolve into agreements that respect the needs of the entire family.

We also highlight the stark contrast between mediation and litigation, particularly its emotional toll on children and parents. Our conversation underscores the importance of prioritizing children's well-being to create a foundation for a healthy and collaborative co-parenting dynamic post-divorce and Brook explains why he believes mediation is best option to divorce with kids.

Explore how mediation, even in the most challenging cases, can transform divorce into an opportunity for growth and understanding.

Learn more about Brook Olsen by clicking here and feel free to reach out to Scott Levin if a California high conflict divorce mediation attorney could help.  


Thanks for listening and I hope you'll continue to learn more about how you can peacefully divorce.

As a divorce mediation attorney in California, Scott Levin helps couples figure out the settlement terms and draft enforceable settlement agreements so they can divorce fairly without needing to go to court. Obtain closure peacefully through an amicable divorce. process that protects families and kids.

Visit San Diego Divorce Mediation for more information and to learn more about our mission to help divorcing couples make informed decisions and fair agreements through mediation or book a free virtual consultation.

Scott Levin, attorney, mediator, CDFA®
Chief PeaceKeeper
scottlevinmediation@gmail.com
858-255-1321
San Diego Divorce Mediation & Family Law
www.SanDiegoFamilyLawyer.net




Speaker 1:

Welcome to the High Conflict Co-Parenting Podcast, where we provide you with valuable insights and expert guidance on navigating high conflict, divorce and custody battles. If you're dealing with a high conflict situation, we understand how challenging and overwhelming it can be. That's why we've created a free resource for you to help you begin managing the high conflict dynamic. Our High Conflict Version Program booklet when co-parenting doesn't work provides great information and innovative strategies to help you disengage from the conflict and prioritize your child's best interests. To access this valuable resource, simply visit highconflictnet forward slash booklet and download your free copy of when co-parenting doesn't work. We believe that every parent deserves the support and guidance they need to navigate high conflict, divorce and custody battles. We're here to help you every step of the way, so be sure to visit highconflictnet forward slash booklet to receive your booklet today. And thank you for tuning in to the High Conflict Co-Parenting Podcast. We look forward to supporting you on your journey.

Speaker 1:

Welcome back, everybody, to the High Conflict Co-Parenting Podcast with Brooke Olson, and this week my guest is Scott Levine, and Scott is an attorney who no longer practices litigation. He is a peacekeeper, if you will, or a peacemaker, and focuses on mediation. So this week's episode is 277, principles and Strategies for Mediating High Conflict, divorce and Custody. And what I want to do here today, scott, is kind of explore this notion of mediating with high conflict couples, because there is a notion, depending on where you sit, that it's not productive and it can't be done. And then there's another notion that if we pull this apart we go slow, we get some slow agreements and we begin to get some traction in the process. There's a possibility that we can navigate that.

Speaker 1:

And I have clients come to me often that use the buzzwords of you know, my client or my exes at Narcissus or my ex's borderline, and there's no way that we can get together and mediate this stuff. And I start to hear their stories and as their stories unfold I get in the back of my head that there's not a lot here other than a lot of story. And even with what you're telling me, if we look at going into court and we look at litigating this stuff, it's going to be a protracted mess. And with the proper coaching and a good mediator that there's a possibility that we can get to at least what is needed in the moment to get results. And when I talk about that I think that there's two.

Speaker 1:

You know, the two major components that I usually look at are the finances and the custody and visitation agreements, and my experience tells me that we don't get to finances until we get to the custody and visitation. We've got to get through that mess first, and that has got the most emotion to it, and what I find in that process is the emotion that comes along with. That has people jumping over a dollar to pick up a dime so to be able to slow the process down for them, get them out of their anger, their resentment, their betrayal, their mis-frust, and get down to an understanding of if you don't choose to work this piece out, or if you can't work this out, you need to understand fully what that's going to look like when you get in front of a Family Court Service Mediator or a Judge or working with a GAO or all of the other messed up things that come along in this arena.

Speaker 2:

At 45 minutes with a Family Court Mediator to figure out your whole life.

Speaker 1:

Right, right, and running on this notion of they are going to hear me, they're going to understand and they're going to get it, and they've never heard anything crazy before.

Speaker 1:

Right, they hear it five times a day and they don't have the resources to really pull this stuff together. I mean, for me, I have a lot of attorneys send their clients to me to prep them for mediation, not just Family Court Services, but for private mediation as well. And what I am interested in hearing from you, kind of off the jump here, Scott, is when you are entering this contractor, this conversation with people to mediate, what's the ideal situation for the clients to show up for you with?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, well, you know. First let me thank you for having me. I don't know who the other 276 guests were before me, but I'm glad we got it in. I first want to just kind of highlight something you said because it's interesting to me and I know we're going to kind of go back and forth. I'm sure we'll get to that answer in a sec.

Speaker 2:

But the alternative is really, when people come and consult with me and they're posing some of these high conflict situations, I will tell them look, I'm not trying to sell you on me, I'm not trying to sell you on the process. But I need you to understand what the alternative looks like, because that is absolutely not a perfect solution and I'm not saying that what I offer is a perfect solution. But you have to understand what's coming if you're not successful, because there's no doubt I can explain and paint that picture in terms of the time that you're going to be stuck in the process, the cost and the impact on your stress level, your emotions, your well-being mental and, of course, your children, your whole life. So I know what that looks like. I dealt in that world for 12 years and for the last 12 years I've been a peacekeeping attorney, I mediate only.

Speaker 2:

But the other thing that I think is really important to understand is that and this is my kind of new buzzword, that I'm kind of mixing in the mix when I'm talking to folks that have these issues in the consultation is imposed solutions. So even if you litigate and you end it and you get to the end, imposed solutions are seldom adhered to. So that presents new obstacles after the divorce process. So people that have solutions imposed on them through the litigation process drag their feet and don't abide by the rules that are imposed. So you get to the end, but is that the end in your experience, or is that just the new beginning?

Speaker 1:

That's often the new beginning. I mean, there are so many post-judgment motions that come up and so many revisiting custody and energies. If they aren't encouraged not just allowed, but encouraged to settle down and get into the mainstream of life, start to get to work, get your kids to school, find joy in your life, have partnerships, have friendships. Life is a struggle, life is stressful and people are living in that stressful environment in a heightened activated state that has an effect on their children, because it has a huge effect on them, and there's this co-regulation that goes on that has to be considered. So when you're mediating, like you said, we're getting to agreements, we're in agreement of what we landed. It might not be my optimal, it might not be what I'm really searching for, but I'm finding that piece of I can do this. My experience in this is that if we get agreements in place, we've set boundaries At least the notion of boundaries that need to be adhered to. I'm talking about parenting plans and custom invisitation. By and large, then at least I have something to push against if there is an agreement that is not adhered to. I've got something that I can take to if I have to go to court that said listen, we have this agreement. This is not working. We need to make a change and this is why it isn't working.

Speaker 1:

But in the early stages of the separations, energies are super high. People aren't sure what their rights are, they're not sure what they really want, they don't know where the off-ramps are and how to get to that place of eliminating the chaos that these children are caught in the middle of. Because without agreements, without court orders, as almost all of my listeners and clients know, is that we're in the wild wild west. Yeah, I agree, if we can go into that mediation area, then we can start to get traction.

Speaker 1:

But you and I were talking before we started this about some of the buzzwords out there, about the personality types, about narcissism, about personality disorders, about these pieces, and people come in with this notion that their ex is, that They've read about it, they meet certain criteria and they are self-diagnosing that and it may or may not be true and, as you and I were talking, if that is where somebody's mindset is stuck in that victim notion of they are a victim of covert narcissism or you fill in the blank domestic violence or whatever there are, and I want justice, I want an uneven, balanced parenting plan. I want to have it my way. Then they are looking down the the pipeline of a long, long road before they get to something, and sometimes that's necessary. I mean, there is domestic violence out there, there is covert narcissism that blows through boundaries, and we've got to get that.

Speaker 1:

But in my experience, the solution, even if there's court orders, isn't the court order. The solution is how you navigate, managing that type of personality and engaging from it.

Speaker 2:

So yeah, I kind of you actually said something really interesting last week when we spoke and I might have still so you know my nickname or my moniker's chief peacekeeper someone in 2012, I helped a couple with the divorce that were part of the Paula Native American tribe and at the, when we were signing all the final paperwork, the wife and mom said you're my chief peacekeeper, and so I said, oh, I'm going to steal that from you, is that OK? So then I trademarked it, but I've been, I've been borrowing from you the last week, which is, you know, when people file for divorce, I assume, I assume that the goal is to get divorced. So settling into a two and a half year litigation fight, that's not moving things along, you know, and again, it is necessary for people that need that or under circumstances that it's required. I get that. There's tons of lawyers out there that can help people. I'm not, I'm not poo pooing the litigation process for for those in need. I'm just saying that if you start down the road of litigation, you will not get divorced in California, at least for two, two and a half years. So hunker down, so like, if you're filing and it's happening, why not try to, you know, move it along in a way that can be more, you know, more in line with the, with the end of goals. But I think for high conflict cases and people dealing with that, that sort of personality, that premediation coaching is absolutely necessary and it puts you in the framework.

Speaker 2:

I have an email in my inbox that I got just this morning from a couple who you know I have a 90% success rate. So there are cases that I don't succeed in helping people reach an agreement. Any mediator that tells a different is not being truthful. But in this case, mom was just take it or leave it from the very beginning, never came off of her, you know points never was willing to negotiate and we didn't and we weren't successful. They've been in litigation, I think, for about the last 14 months and she just emailed I need to get out of this, I can't deal with it anymore. Can you reach out? Can you see if he'll come back to the table? It's just overwhelming All the things that you know you could expect to hear. And I've reached out, you know, and I got an email saying that you know he doesn't think that it's possible to mediate based on our original interactions, where there wasn't any, you know, negotiation, but I had encouraged her and anyone in a situation like hers to take advantage of the coaching element like that you offer, right?

Speaker 2:

So you know when you're trying to negotiate with a high conflict, understanding you know how the mediation process is going to work. Like the structure like you said, are we dealing? What's our agenda at the beginning? How do you, what are the meetings look like? I'm having a clear understanding of what's coming. It will be helpful.

Speaker 2:

And then working with yourself or, you know, coach to help game plan for discussing, like the difficult issues. So you know when you work with the coach. Or you know when you're getting a consulting attorney, you know what's coming, like the questions that you have to answer are not hidden, but anticipating the difficult topics and game planning for how you're going to deal with that. And also understanding or anticipating the triggers that might come about from the other side and their reactions and how to work through those to avoid, you know, those becoming huge obstacles in the discussion. Right, we want to focus on solutions. Triggers take us over. You know here, here, here. But you know if we're trying to go over here, you have to kind of manage those and if you've been dealing in that relationship.

Speaker 2:

Obviously, if you've gotten to the divorce point, you know, point, those triggers have led us in the wrong direction.

Speaker 2:

So when the separation process kind of game planning and understanding and anticipating all those and just learning the skills you know to deal with the emotions and stay focused, I mean I think like the agenda.

Speaker 2:

So also something you said earlier is it's interesting I wouldn't say in my mediation practice that I have when I'm talking to people and I'm game planning when they hire me and I'm game planning for you know, what are we going to do first, you know, in terms of our topics, I don't always start with parenting. It depends. But you know, like you said, parenting has the most emotional components. Assets and debts are obviously also emotional, but sometimes it's more about the numbers and if we can start to make progress, even on something as little as okay, so you drive the Volvo, you drive the Tesla, okay, is that how you guys want to do it? Like even little incremental steps like that get us on the momentum path towards agreement. So sometimes I think that you know, starting with the financials and then moving into parenting can help build momentum towards agreements and make it a more of a collaborative approach because the parenting obstacle can be immense.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and when I see parents coming in in my practice, by the very nature of my practice, this seems to be the big component. Money plays a factor. Money plays a factor in support issues, the alimony issues and all of those things. And then custody comes sneaking in under that guise and what I try to do with my clients in that is look at what the damage is, and there is, without a doubt, damage that comes for the children with protracted litigation. It is an absolute happening. So we've got to look at what that means coming back and forth. Because what I've noticed and I've written about this in some blogs and I've talked about it on some of the podcasts is is that if we can take money out of that custody conversation for the most part and understand that a person is going to pay, whatever they're gonna pay there's gonna be if they get to court, there are the guidelines that come along and that's just where it lands. And you can stream about it and you can kick and moan and you can be resentful about it, but it is that. But a parent's job in my mind is to have the attitude that no matter what takes place here, I'm responsible for that child's well-being and if it means I don't want an equal timeshare with the other parent that there's a really good chance unless there's something in the way that is just blaring in terms of domestic violence or child abuse or addiction that we can really get our hands around that. This is where it's gonna land.

Speaker 1:

And, as uncomfortable as that may be for somebody, what I hear often from parents, fathers and mothers is that that other parent doesn't have the time or the availability to do what they say that they're going to do.

Speaker 1:

And my comment to them is that may very well be true. However, this is a new situation. It isn't what it was Exactly and people make adjustments. Gotta give them that chance to fail and we get to see how those adjustments work. And if it doesn't work and I don't lean on that person constantly about what a bad parent they are, about how they don't show up, about what they do wrong I'm just kind of leaning into that of when the kids show up, I take care of the kids, I let them go over there and I let that person either fail or succeed in their parenting piece. There's usually and this happens post judgment or post agreement oftentimes is there's an organic outcome and that parenting plan moves to where it fits the kids better, if I am not chasing money or I'm not disparaging that other parent, no matter what I might feel about them.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's a narrow scope of issues at that point because we've already gotten the divorce final, so it's just about. It kind of condenses the focus.

Speaker 1:

Okay, and a parent that is struggling might be picking up the phone and saying, listen, I got to go out of town. Can you take the kids? I've got this going on. Can you take the kids? And rather than going, you just start keeping up to your deal. You shouldn't have equal custody, you're just going. Yep, got it, thanks. And it leans in and it leans in and it leans in and it takes, it scrubs off the energy of the conflict, because it's easy to keep conflict going. I've got an idea, I've got a perspective and I'm going to jam it down your throat.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, you know, what's also interesting is, in a litigated setting, the scope of issues. At least, you know, very rarely in my litigation life did we deal with certain things like certain things like new partners, like you know, how will the kids be introduced to new partners? The judge didn't want to hear about that and didn't want to read about it because they're like let's deal with the core issues and get this like we're having enough problem with this, why deal with something over here? So in mediation, though, I mean you have an opportunity to talk about, I think, a larger scope of issues and things that I know as someone that has been in this, and you know as someone that I've been doing this work for 20 years. You know, I know that's coming right as a professional, so I'd be doing a disservice to not try to bring it up and just say, hey, you, just so you know there's these things that you can agree on about you know under what circumstances kids might be introduced to new partners. If you can't agree, then it just won't be in. But I just want to give us a chance to talk about it in case you know, in case that's helpful for the future and a lot of people talk about it and at least by talking about it, and then a lot of people put certain you know rules or in agreements into the settlement. But you know, bringing it up and having an idea that and really just getting it out there. We know this is coming. It might already have happened, but you know we're talking about the future. I mean, you're just dealing with a larger scope of issues that you can address and collaborate on and solve before they become a problem later.

Speaker 2:

One question I have I had someone ask me the other day like they're a client or they're a potential client. They said, so what if I let it get? Like how will that affect my kids? And I was trying to like paint a picture of just like really small ways that I've seen, like cause, like you know we all, like you could go online and read about you know, or what you know, just like major, you know things that happened.

Speaker 2:

But I was like trying to give like okay, so like you know, I know your brother lives with you. They live together right now but in the future like it'll be him and his brother. And then you know, and I was like you know, so what if your you know, brother, kind of refers to the kids and says, hey, your mom, your mom, you know you got to go see your mom today and then if your wife's parents go, okay, your dad is coming over to get you. Like, is that like, can you paint a picture of a little like? The kids are half each of them right, they can't rip out the quote, unquote bad half, you know. So like when someone says something that is in their own family that is negative, they can't like that, they internalize it. Is there an example that you would have given in that sense?

Speaker 1:

Yeah. So I think that in the best of situations, in the absolute best of situations, we've got kids that are sharing two households. They're going back and forth twice a week at minimum, and oftentimes three or four or five times a week. Yeah, and we as human beings, our systems settle around orientation, where am I, where's my stuff? I forgot something? Can we go back and get it? And then there's another contact and the kids don't get a chance to settle in. And even if there's an agreement, this is what's going on Now. If we're going to litigate this.

Speaker 1:

The kids are going back and forth in a hostile environment in two homes where they are less than the focus of what's happening. So parents, let's slip inuendo and energetic spot Spikes at the other parent and, even if it's unintended, that child takes a hit and that nervous system doesn't settle. So we want to be able to really look at our children through the eyeglass of how do we mitigate that for them? As best as we can and by getting early agreements. If we could just get temporary agreements in place while we're going through the process. Sometimes I've seen mediators just manage that little bit and that holds long enough for people to get through the litigated process that takes the kids out of the middle of this. That's a success, right. But an example to your point is If we don't have things in place, a parent can break any agreement that is there because they haven't got a piece of paper that they can show somebody that says this is what the orders are, and a parent can go pick up a kid out of school early not on their time take them out of school, take them across whatever, and that puts a child in a really untenable place and our children co-regulate off of us. They are not able to regulate their own nervous systems. They don't know how, especially pre-teens and teenagers, we look at their problems with regulation. Those are a product of their dysregulated parents as they've grown up.

Speaker 1:

So when parents are going through this process, even when they're going through mediation, they have to be able to have somebody hold their hand and say listen, let's get to what's important here and let's scrub off your anger. You can go to your therapist, you can work this anger through with your therapist. That's appropriate. You're going to get your growth. But here we've got to tone this down and we've got to look at what the effects are going to be on the children and what the long-term outcomes are going to be for them. What do you want? Because I think some of the things that happen, not all of them and I want the listeners to hear that I am not downplaying their realities. Sometimes their realities are distorted and there is a hypervigilance or a really controlling piece that they don't want to let go of that is going to keep them in an excited state or a hyper-excited state, which is going to keep their children in a hyper-excited state, which is going to end up in behavioral problems at school and dysregulated adults as adults.

Speaker 2:

I agree, I agree, yeah, I think. Again, I'm not trying to downplay the needs, I hate to just give examples, but I was having lunch yesterday and I ran into the wife of a rabbi that was in my congregation when I was a kid and I was having lunch with an attorney who's about 65, and she's a family law attorney, and then we were leaving and the ex-wife of the rabbi waiting me over, she said is that blah, blah, blah? And I said yeah, and so this was my attorney for my divorce and I just have to tell you and this is a very well-respected attorney, she seems like a nice lady and the ex-wife of the rabbi, she says that was the worst decision I ever made. And so I guess what we're really talking about is this is not a perfect system. But again, what I said at the beginning, the other side of this is, I know, is imperfect and it's just about trying to deal with your reality and understanding that the court system and lawyers are not built to solve your relationship issues with your co-parent in the future and are just trying to manage those things as best as the system permits. And it's a very imperfect reality. So, trying to approach this in a collaborative way, in a way that helps deal with the post-divorce conflict. But everything you said about the managing, I agree with you that these things, once you get through the divorce process and if you can approach it in the way that you were saying, it will organically fall into place. Even if it says 50-50 custody at first, people make adjustments when the conflict can be reduced.

Speaker 2:

But in terms of those temporary agreements, I had a call last week with a couple that we set up a temporary parenting plane over two years ago and I haven't heard from them. And they called and they said they want to come back and try to finish the process. But I hear this all the time that they've been abiding by the plan that we put in place and that has helped them live through this reality, even though we haven't advanced through the divorce process beyond that. But, like you said, that alone just that one piece has helped them deal with each other and protect the kids and they have a blended family, which can be layers of complexity as well.

Speaker 2:

One thing also that came up in the case I just referenced is that and I'm not sure if you see this much, but in this case mom basically raised the father's child who we had with an ex-spouse before they met, and this couple was together like 12 years, so from like age one to 10 or one to 11, this mom was a stepmom but she basically was like half the time raising this person as a mother and now she has very little access to that child and that was hard for her to deal with, which is why they stall. I feel like I'm giving you all my failure examples, but which was why we got the temporary agreement but we couldn't reach permanent agreement. So she wanted to litigate for rights to that child and then found out over the last two years that that's just not an option.

Speaker 1:

I'm going to hunt and I think it's important when we're talking about strategies for mediating in these situations, attorneys don't take a lot of time to walk you through or to pull things out that are important information in terms of if you move in this direction. These are some of the things that we can expect, but if we start to package this in this way, we can do things in a different way. So sometimes for me, if I get somebody early enough, they're just thinking about separating. We can pull out the finances, we can see where the hot points are. We can say, okay, what is it that you really need versus what you really want? How can we find off ramps for you in this direction? How can we get you through those pieces so you don't have to litigate? And, as a coach, what mediator can I put you with that I think can do a good job here? And if not mediation, who is the best attorney that I can put you with to find solution or to litigate this in the best possible manner for you, given everything that's here? And when people have that type of information, they do so much better, they make better choices and their search for quote, unquote justice or retribution gets downgraded, so solution can happen.

Speaker 1:

Anytime people separate, there's a reason for that and it's not because they're getting along. And usually there is animosity at that split and there's not everybody is on board. Some people get blindsided by it. They are not prepared for it, they are put into a tailspin around it and until they can get their bearing, they shouldn't be making a move with it. They should just be trying to figure it out, because the other person has already gone through the process and they kind of the trains in motion and when this break happens, there isn't an orientation and there is anger, there's grief, there's betrayal, there's all of these things that come up that have to be managed, and that's not what attorneys do no.

Speaker 2:

Well, they might listen to you for 5.15 hour, but they're not going to help you manage it.

Speaker 1:

Right, and in listening to you for 5.15 hour they're also talking about it. It's like what's the golf game and all of that other stuff? And it's like, no, I need to get here and I'm not getting there, I don't know. So having somebody that is in the middle of that, that is a neutral in the process, that can help each person mediate those pieces, gives the opportunity for solution. But even I think, Scott and I'd like your feedback in this, but my experience that even in that, Somebody that's really trying to get through this and work to solution, even if their X or soon to be X is confrontational in the process, with the help of somebody outside of the mediation process, coaching them into, yeah, this is where you put your foot on the accelerator and this is where you back off. This is where you've got leverage. This is where you don't pay attention to, where you mix this stuff up and what's the bottom line here that you want to work to is not just valuable, but it's almost a necessity.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, well, I agree. I mean chances are that a couple has already experienced that like venting or reacting it hasn't helped them see eye to eye in the past, right. So like it's about having that coaching and avoiding that, that taking us off the freeway ramp in the wrong direction, right, is really really important. But what you also said is having a coach that, like yourself certainly I mean your whole perspective when I first saw your website and watched the podcast is like a million percent right on the tip. You also have to help break the reality to them. Like you said, they want uneven parenting In California. If you're in the scope of normal and loving and regular quote unquote and you want 50-50 custody, you're probably going to get it.

Speaker 1:

And that's almost the standard throughout the country. At this point there's a few places that lean in the other direction, but that's becoming the standard.

Speaker 2:

And so when the mediator breaks that news, because someone comes in and say, yeah, I want 90 percent custody because this person is a horrible person, or they're just not, they haven't been around, like you said, they're looking in the past. I've been the primary parent, they work all the time, work till 9 pm, or they haven't been available or they've been full-andering in Las Vegas or whatever the situation is. And then we're already starting to get on the wrong path. If I'm the one that says, ok, well, what do you think? And the other side says, well, I want 50-50 custody, or that's a given, or we're not. This isn't going to happen. And now we got.

Speaker 2:

If the mediator is the one breaking the reality to the person, it sometimes can make the mediator viewed as not neutral. And that's another reason that you need that coaching, because you need to stay in the framework of look, if a mediator is in business and they've been doing this for a while, they are not on anyone's side, most likely. And you need the coaching to understand don't go down that road, because now you're going to end up having to hire a new mediator because it's not going to be working or you're going to not go through mediation. You have to stay focused. But if someone like you is breaking that reality to them in advance and helping them understand that, but then maybe game planning for what they can negotiate, it just makes for a much more likely situation where people can be successful Unless you disagree.

Speaker 1:

No, I fully agree with that. And sometimes when somebody comes to me and they say I want 50-50 custody and it's my right and I should be able to have that, I think it's also worth the discussion and I often have it with them is like, okay, I get that. That's why you want number one. Why do you want it Number two? Are you really capable of that? Yeah, by capable, I don't mean that you're an incompetent parent. What are your time constraints and where are these children best served? And I know that you're mad at your soon to be ex, but Is aftercare better?

Speaker 2:

Is aftercare till 7 pm better than with mom or dad? I mean, yeah, these are the sort of discussions that you can have in a mediated or collaborative practice In court. It becomes just about the percentages right In a fight. You don't get to delve deeper, really, as to the reality. So, yeah, we have those discussions all the time. So what time do you work till? Well, usually I work from 10 to 8. Well, so where are the kids going to be from three days? You know, these are the sort of discussions that we have to have.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and then just bringing in. I think also you know a parent's need to be a better parent and that doesn't mean you're not a good parent already but to really understand you know attachment and what the child's needs are and where they're going to get met, and as a parent where you can actually do a better job of meeting them in that and not having equal custody Because you're better rested, you're more attuned, you're able to be more present because you're not off doing something else, that you're front and center and that's important. That's not like being a Disneyland mom or dad. It's about optimizing that time with knowing what good parenting is and what good boundaries with children are and how to really meet them and meet their needs.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, you know. Another quick example of what kind of happens, you know, when you litigate versus mediate I get calls all the time from people that are already divorced and went through litigation, and this just came up last week, which is why I bring it up. But, like, my parenting plan says that vacations, you know, we each get 14 days or whatever number of days per year. It doesn't say what counts as a vacation day. So is it just the days that I'm overtaking the other person? Because that's what they're saying, but when you do the math, that means they can take the kids, you know, for like 20 days of a month because they can game it and like these are.

Speaker 2:

So, like when you, when you mediate a settlement, like your lawyer mediator should be writing this or you know whoever the mediator you kind of delve one step deeper. Okay, so I understand, yeah, there's a number of days a year that you agree to, but what is what counts as a vacation day? And these are the sort of discussions that are hard. That one layer I'm not saying I'm a genius for bringing this up, it's kind of mediation 101, but it's just one layer deeper and it can. It can eliminate lots of future problems.

Speaker 1:

And if somebody comes in, knowing that, it's a much easier job for you, it's a much easier pitch for everybody else. It's laid out and to your point, I mean, the parenting plan is the document that is going to be the boundary setting for most of what can happen with boundary settings and to keep the the conflict at bay to the degree that it can, and you know spelling out specifics, like you said. But you know a vacation is seven days, it's not 10 and it can't be parsed out and these are the holidays and it can't be added to and played with and things around passports and travel and all of those things that typically don't get put in when you're litigating, unless you're really adept at when you put that in front of a judge. This is, these are the things that he can sign off on.

Speaker 2:

But to your point, yeah, and for 30% of people fire their family law attorney. So when the second person comes on, they know that it's a S show right, like they're just trying to get to the core stuff because they might want to help. But I mean they're like, oh, I'm the second person in, so we already know this is a problem. You know. Not that I'm judging, but, like you know, second attorneys in already kind of know that there's there's some reason that the first one didn't work out whether it was fees or or you know the person just being unhappy with them. So they're really focusing on the core at that point, not that one layer deeper.

Speaker 1:

Right, but I would also say that a lot of attorneys can look and go yeah, I know why it didn't work, Because it's a Again.

Speaker 2:

I think that, just remember. I just want to highlight one more thing I mean about your site and your this podcast. I mean I could not agree with your perspective more. I think you're. I think you're really doing a really great deed for society and in reaching people in the way that you're reaching. I commend you for that.

Speaker 1:

Thank you, scott. I appreciate that and you know there is such, and for our listeners on this podcast, there's a moment in here and actually there's moments along the timeline when you're litigating in this that to look at where you're emotionally stuck in the process and not looking at the practical pieces that need to come to get through this, because life in motion, in the mainstream of our lives, is where we want to be and this whole thing about divorce and custody battles is this, eddie, that comes off of that river and gets you stuck in spinning where you're not going down that river and really being engaged in life the way that we want to be, and our children as well. So to be able to stop along the way and go. Is there a place here where I can get a mediator in to finish this piece? You know, for sometimes attorneys, this looks like we're going to do a four way.

Speaker 2:

Great.

Speaker 1:

You know we've got two people and their attorneys sitting at a table. That's a how my first divorce got finished Two and a half years later, 25 years ago, yeah, and nothing's really changed in the process. And sometimes you're going to have the other side that's stuck. They're going to stay stuck and you're going to have to go through the litigation process. But I want you know, through this discussion that I'm having with you, Scott, to have that place where the listeners, my clients, can stop in a moment and go. Is there an offer up here? Yeah, we bring somebody in and take another shot at this, because sometimes it works.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it takes 1 person to make that, that initiate that thought, but that's about 20% of my business actually is people in litigation exiting and, like you said, maybe it's just a piece or maybe it's the whole thing, but it's absolutely possible.

Speaker 2:

I want everyone to know that you can exit and you can reach agreements after you start. You know a contested process but you know 1 person has to be willing to come to that reality or that decision and then they have to be willing to, you know, pitch it to the other side because you know then they might feel like it's a sign of weakness or something like that. But you know to go down that road and in case the other side is not interested but it can you can absolutely do it and, like I said earlier, I have had clients that start with me, go there and come back and it's just. You know it's absolutely possible and in fact I find that people that are exiting litigation are very motivated to find solutions because they've experienced they've paid the 1012 $15,000 retainer and then sat there for eight months with nothing happening.

Speaker 1:

Well, if they paid the 1015. They've been in six months.

Speaker 2:

Now they've just exchanged tax returns and and you know, chase bank statements that they might have already had access to.

Speaker 1:

you know, in a lot of cases, All right, scott, thanks for coming in and have this conversation. I always like to from time to time get the perspective and the notion of what mediation can do and kind of what it can't do sometimes. But to keep this in the conversation because alternative dispute resolution in high conflict sometimes, yeah, and to be open to having a discussion with somebody other than a litigating attorney that can at least give you some perspective of what that might look like and how to get there.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I agree. Thank you for having me. I hope that this was something I said that you know is is helpful or educational, and I appreciate you.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely, scott. This has been episode 277 principles and strategies for mediating high conflict, divorce and custody with attorney and peacekeeper Scott Levine. Scott, thank you again, everybody that's listening, as always. Go have some fun and get into life and enjoy this spinning blue planet. Take care, everybody. Thank you for tuning into the high conflict co parenting podcasts.

Speaker 1:

We hope that you found our insights and guidance helpful in navigating high conflict, divorce and custody battles.

Speaker 1:

If you're looking for help right now, you can sign up for our nine week live online course where I personally teach the high conflict diversion program that you can register for at our website high conflictnet under our classes tab.

Speaker 1:

Or you can book a one on one personal coaching appointment with me, and you can register for that at our website high conflict net under the services tab. If you're looking for more support and practical advice, we invite you to sign up for our email list at high conflict net forward slash emails. The files are designed to help you think outside of the box, challenge your belief systems and find creative solutions to work while managing the black hole of high conflict and custody disputes. You'll receive tips, strategies, success stories, common mistakes to avoid and the tools you need to disengage from the conflict and prioritize your child's best interests. Every parent deserve the support and guidance they need to navigate high conflict, divorce and custody battles, and our email list is just one way that we can provide that support. So be sure to visit high conflict net forward slash emails to sign up today and again. Thank you for listening. We look forward to supporting you on your journey.

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Scott Levin

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