Doing Divorce Right By Chief PeaceKeeper™ Scott Levin
Scott Levin is a divorce attorney and divorce financial expert who has dedicated his career to helping couples and parents resolve disputes through mediation so they stay out of court and stay in control. Protecting children is at the heart of Scott's work as a mediation divorce specialist. Scott shares tips and advice for couples and parents wanting to learn how to divorce amicably without going to court. As a family law attorney in San Diego, California, Scott has more than two decades of experience and stories and tales to share and an incredible array of unique and interesting guests that join him to share their own ideas and experiences. We discuss the benefits of divorce mediation and the reasons why couples navigating divorce should choose peace and opt for the mediation process as opposed to hiring divorce lawyers and entering the litigation battlefield. Known by colleagues and clients as the Chief PeaceKeeper™, Scott is the founder and managing partner of San Diego Divorce Mediation & Family Law, a firm with hundreds of 5 star reviews from couples who have benefitted from Scott's legal and financial expertise and caring approach over his many years in the field. Learn strategies to tackling divorce and co-parenting disputes through a team approach with Scott Levin.
Doing Divorce Right By Chief PeaceKeeper™ Scott Levin
Transforming Divorce with Mediation: Insights from Scott Levin and Jill Kaufman
Discover insights into how integrating legal, financial, and emotional strategies can help achieve the benefits and of a healthy divorce.
San Diego Divorce Mediation Attorney and CDFA Scott Levin is joined by divorce coach Jill Kaufman for an in-depth exploration of the power of mediation over traditional litigation, which often mitigates emotional harm and financial strain, offering a more peaceful path forward. Learn the importance of selecting the right legal counsel aligned with holistic values, and avoid the pitfalls of adversarial approaches that can complicate and prolong the journey.
Delve into the art of effective mediation tactics and the benefits of assembling a team of financial, legal, and mental health professionals. We discuss the nuances of negotiation, emphasizing the importance of understanding the motivations behind demands to foster a more amicable resolution. Scott and Jill share real-life scenarios where creative solutions, such as involving divorce financial neutral services or opting for settlements, have led to better mental health and family outcomes.
The discussion underscores the necessity of prioritizing fair settlements that consider the welfare of any children involved, setting the stage for healthier family dynamics.
Thanks for listening and I hope you'll continue to learn more about how you can peacefully divorce.
As a divorce mediation attorney in California, Scott Levin helps couples figure out the settlement terms and draft enforceable settlement agreements so they can divorce fairly without needing to go to court. Obtain closure peacefully through an amicable divorce. process that protects families and kids.
Visit San Diego Divorce Mediation for more information and to learn more about our mission to help divorcing couples make informed decisions and fair agreements through mediation or book a free virtual consultation.
Scott Levin, attorney, mediator, CDFA®
Chief PeaceKeeper
scottlevinmediation@gmail.com
858-255-1321
San Diego Divorce Mediation & Family Law
www.SanDiegoFamilyLawyer.net
Welcome everybody. I am excited to be here with you. We are talking about a holistic approach to divorce, an overview to integrating legal, financial and emotional strategies. Scott Levin, who is a former litigator. He's an attorney, a mediator and calls himself a chief peacekeeper, which is exactly what we want when we're going through divorce. Scott, can you introduce yourself a little more?
Speaker 2:Yeah, hi everyone. I'm Scott Levin. I'm an attorney in California. I'm a CDFA certified divorce financial analyst. I have a finance background. I was litigating for many years. I stopped in 2014 when my second kid was born three boys and I just choose to help people through mediation so that I'm a big believer that getting through the legal process is the key to health. Getting stuck in the divorce process only leads to more expensive divorces, more costly emotional harm and damage to children. Now, mediation is not the answer to everybody. Litigation is not the answer to everybody, so I'm not assigning if you're in a litigated case or a contested case and that sometimes can't be avoided, right. But generally speaking, you my clients. Over the last 20 years I've seen they feel better about themselves and their family and their finances after they get the legal process done, and so I help people navigate that, you know, in a quicker way.
Speaker 1:Yes, absolutely, and that's all we're about. I think you and I are aligned with getting people through their divorce quicker and more peacefully for the good of everybody, and so that's what this workshop is about. And so, in terms of you know the physical, you know a holistic process, a holistic divorce process. It's taking into account the physical, emotional and mental impact of the process. And so you know, when you're thinking about what a divorce attorney typically tells their clients, they're trying to get their clients to get the best deal for them financially and the parenting situation that they want, and if they don't take into account the emotional, mental, health and physical parts of this and the effect of this, they could be advising their client to do something that's not in the best interest of the client. And you know in the past, attorneys are not supposed to take all of those things into account. They're supposed to advocate for their client and get them, you know quote the best deal Right. Isn't that typically what you know the past 40 years that attorneys do?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. I mean, in doing that work, what attorneys essentially do is position their client against the other side, and so it's a battle for a winner and a loser, and that's how they approach it. And the reality, unfortunately, is that when you are forced to go to navigate a path where one of you will win and one of you lose, you actually both lose Because, instead of splitting 95% of your assets and expending 5% of them on the divorce system, you'll divide 60% of your assets, or 65%, and the divorce system will cut that other third. But again, there's not a right or wrong way to navigate this process, and people have to choose what's best for them.
Speaker 1:Right, right, but spending money on attorneys as opposed to having it yourself is probably not what's best for them.
Speaker 2:Family law attorneys are also Jill. One thing I'll just say about family law attorneys and I am one, so I get to say this and a lot of my colleagues don't like when I say this because I do do these appearances. But you know family law attorneys go to the most, they're the go to the highest. The most tier three law school graduates are in family law. The most tier three law school graduates are in family law. The highest bar pass fail rates family law attorneys. So when you're in California or any state you pass the bar after you graduate law school to become a lawyer.
Speaker 2:The highest fail rates are people that end up in family law. So it's the lowest kind of rung equality of human essentially right. Like the worst educated, worst kind of positioned. And that's kind of human essentially right. Like they're the worst educated, worst kind of positioned. And that's kind of family law right. Because you deal with so much emotion that you know a lot of attorneys in family law would rather do business deals if they could. But this is what you know their lot in life becomes so there's very few people that like set forth out and say I can't wait to be a family law attorney. They kind of just end up here. And so what does that mean for you? Well, it means that if you hire a family law attorney, they'll be very careful. But the real problem is your spouse hires a family law attorney and you have no control over who that person is, and it only takes one money motivated me first attorney to dissolve a process into a catastrophe.
Speaker 1:Right and I want to. You're obviously right with your research and your facts, but I want to say that there are some good family law attorneys out there who do this because it's a passion for them and do really care about their clients, and I know them, you know like you're one of them, you know, so you know I don't want to scare everybody that, like all of their family.
Speaker 2:You just can't control both sides. It only takes one attorney to make it really hard to navigate divorce.
Speaker 1:Right, and if there are half of the family attorneys out there who are like what you're describing, you have to be really careful when you hire one right, you have to. You have to make sure that you don't get one of those family law attorneys.
Speaker 2:I mean it. Also when I refer cases. A lot of my referrals will call me back and they'll say I called you know, your friend, and I hired them. But now, you know, now I'm working with one of their colleagues in their firm right. So, like the, you know, now I'm working with one of their colleagues in their firm right. So, like the, you know, family law attorneys are very busy people and so they our practices are growing, not shrinking. And so even if you're getting referred to somebody like when I refer someone, I'm referring a specific attorney, not the firm itself. And so you just have to make sure, when you're getting referred to someone, that you know it's that person that's going to be actually doing the work, because, you know, these days their time is so much in demand.
Speaker 1:Right, Exactly Now. How do we okay, how do we avoid using the family attorney for purposes of making the divorce more complex, making it more high conflict? How do we use the family law attorneys in a productive way, where you're doing it and thinking about the emotional and mental impact?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So you set up your divorce process and again, there's not a right or wrong way. So if you have to go to court with the attorney, i's not. I'm not judging you how I would do it. I'm married, but if I were getting divorced, this is how I would do it. I would make it very clear that I'm hiring them as a consulting attorney only and I will not retain them if I litigate the case later. So they will not be my attorney if I litigate. So they are not incentivized to blow up the process. So I'm going to mediate, my spouse and I are going to hire a mediator together and then I'm going to have a consulting attorney and then a consulting financial expert on the side. So I'm going to form my own team and then a coach as well. So, like, I want to form my own support staff, not necessarily neutral support staff, but people that are like looking at the financial disclosures, advising me on like what a good proposal would be explaining to me.
Speaker 2:This is why you're asking for this, because this is the why. Because when you negotiate divorce settlements, the other side wants to know why. I just was in a mediation right before this where the spouse said I'm willing to co-own the home or sell it, but I will not let you own the home. And I said is this an emotional thing? Why wouldn't you let your spouse own the home if that's the only way they could own? That's just not. I'm not going to let that happen. And so that was, you know, had more to do with mental than than financial. But there was no why behind that. And the other side can't negotiate that way. They get that's when you create conflict Right. So why am I asking for this? Why is this better and really understanding? But you're, but you're. But you're your own quarterback, you're in control, you're, you're putting the pieces place and you're getting all that advice and expertise at a fraction of the cost, because they're only billing you when you call them for a meeting or you ask them questions. So you have a financial expert, a lawyer and a mental expert. All that will probably cost less than $10,000.
Speaker 2:And then you're using a mediator with your spouse and you're not going into the mediation with those people. Ideally, you'll just go with you and your spouse. So you let all those folks know I'm not using any of you if we're not successful here. So they are not motivated in any way to want to blow that process up for you. So what does that accomplish? It accomplishes basically understanding what the settlement is that you're aiming for and why, and you're much more likely to achieve it. You're getting all the expertise and advice, you're making sure that you understand everything, but you're still using the mediation process to attack the settlement directly. So, like an average mediation should take you know, I mean, obviously it differs for people could you know one, two, three months? I mean it's not like a nine month thing Usually? You know it's rare. So you're still getting through the process using mediation and you're being collaborative, but you're still weaponizing all the information, and that's how I would set up my process.
Speaker 1:So I think, behind all of the things that you're saying, is that you're taking into account what is best physically, emotionally and mentally for you, For you yeah.
Speaker 1:And so you're not just saying well, legally I am entitled to 50% of the assets and alimony of this amount or child support of this amount. What you're saying is, I need to know what's right for me, and because you know, when your attorney tells you let's say you have two parties um, party A's attorney says you're entitled to, you know $500,000. I'm just throwing out something. And parties B tells them well, you're entitled to, you know $800,000. And that's not 50-50, right? So each of the attorneys are telling their parties different things and we don't know how they're basing that amount. You know, we don't know where that's coming from. But that's not taking into consideration any of the emotional pieces. And so you know, how would you take into consideration those emotional pieces If each of the parties are coming to you saying they're entitled to different things?
Speaker 1:as a mediator or well as you know, take a holistic look at the divorce.
Speaker 2:Here's how I call BS on attorneys. So I also serve as a consulting attorney and I just had that mediation I told you about. So we had four meetings and this was our fifth and this was the one where we're coming together to settle. Then one of the spouses got the advice of a consulting attorney and I could picture exactly what happened, because she came armed with just a whole different perspective and attitude and claims of right and wrong. But I could picture what happened when she met with this attorney. The attorney was like this is what the loss, this is what you owe, this is nothing more than 55, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. This is what's right.
Speaker 2:How you prevent that from happening to you is putting the financial expert and the lawyer in the same room at the same time. Okay, so when I'm a consulting attorney, if I have a colleague in the room, then I'm going to temper down my BS meter, right Because? Or if I'm in the same room as a financial expert and they're saying stuff that's not true, I have to call that out. So you're getting the real deal. Essentially, you're getting a legitimate advice and you're not just being fired up with. Like you know, it was a seven year marriage I get. I get spouse support for life. Well, no, that's never going to happen. Sorry, not going to happen, period. But like all that kind of bluster goes out the window. If you put them in the same room you'll get more genuine perspective because they'll they'll have to limit their, their kind of, and then again you let them know you're not going to hire them if you're not.
Speaker 2:So what happened after this meeting I was just talking to you about? I spoke to each of them very briefly, individually. We talked about it at the end and I said you know, I don't think I'm going to be able to solve this for you guys. If this is what you're asking for, it's just, it's too much. The settlement would be like this and I have to advise your husband to get his own consulting attorney to make sure that he's informed, because what you're asking for is on, is not, is over the line, in my opinion.
Speaker 2:And she said well, that's what the attorney told me. The attorney told me that that she would be seeing me next week because she was about to blow up my mediation. What type of human being would do that to it? We've had a settlement. It was a good settlement. It was fair for everybody and, guess what? It also protected their kids, which was both of their priorities when they came and saw me initially, and that all went out the window. But like, why would you blow up the mediation? Well, because this person hadn't been disincentivized from doing that. Because this person hadn't been disincentivized from doing that, because they could get $800 for a couple hours of consulting, or they could make $60,000 over the course of the next year and a half representing this person in court.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and I'm not saying all attorneys are like that. They're not. Like Jill said, there are really good attorneys, but there are attorneys that have bills to pay too.
Speaker 1:Right, right, and they're not incentivized to lower that. So you bring up an excellent point. I want to go back to what you said about having two people in the room. So I've been in the room with a financial expert who was working with my client and she wanted the two of us together in the meeting and we started talking about things and I kept asking questions and the financial expert said, well, I don't have that information yet. Well, I haven't done that yet. Well, I'll get that to you.
Speaker 1:And, like, my client didn't understand which questions to ask her until I mean, we we did go over some things, but I thought that her financial expert had already gone through all of this. And so, you know, we were able to get so much accomplished in that one meeting with the three of us because I was able to talk directly to the financial person and the financial person had to answer to someone who's asking her. You know, knows what to ask and knows what to follow up with. And so it is a good idea occasionally I don't think all the time, but once in a while to meet with either the attorney and the financial person, the attorney and the divorce coach, the financial person and the divorce coach. So like those kinds of meetings can be really helpful because you're going to get different perspectives and they are going to present themselves differently when there's another professional in the room, you know. So hopefully we wouldn't, hopefully most people wouldn't do that just temper it down.
Speaker 2:it's really easy to say like it's like when you look at a prenup agreement and then like you just redline it, like as you're reading it and pilot like all the stuff that you think is bad about it, but like if I was sharing that with the other attorney. I probably would like you know I wouldn't just share my like thoughts in real time these are like my ideas to talk about the client with but like I would certainly like not have the same bravado or, you know, like the same stream of conscious kind of thought if I was interacting with someone that, like you know, knew what they were doing too.
Speaker 1:Right, and I have another example of everything that you're talking about. That just happened. So an attorney referred me a case and I was actually doing some counseling for this person. And so she came to me one time and was like I am absolutely overwhelmed anxious, I can't sleep, I am out of control, I don't know if I can keep going like this. And I said well, I think you have to settle, because they were going through motions and court and it was getting really bad. And I said I don't think you, emotionally, it's worth it for you to keep going this way.
Speaker 1:And so she went back to her attorney that afternoon and said I'd like to settle my case. And her attorney said to her who's a great attorney, by the way, I really like this attorney. He said to her you can't settle. We're on like we're on the trial track, we are not settling. And he yelled at her. He yelled at her we cannot settle. She I give her so much credit. She said to him Jill told me for my mental health I need to settle and I'm settling. And he stopped and he said he like calmed himself down and then he apologized to her and he said I'm really sorry, I shouldn't have said that If you want to settle, we will settle, and so, and they ended up. This is a crazy story. They ended up agreeing, they settled and then they got back together.
Speaker 2:So now they're together the couple.
Speaker 1:That's a, that's a side note, but but you know, it just gives you an example of how you have to take control of the process, because the only person who is going to understand the emotional toll is you and you have to express that to your divorce coach, to your therapist, you know, to your attorney, and tell them what, emotionally and mentally, is okay for you and is not okay for you.
Speaker 2:I mean as a mediator, I get I get a lot of criticism from from my friends that are lawyers. Most of my clients take the agreements that we reach to a consulting attorney to get it reviewed and like, for example, you know I'm a creative problem solver, so a lot of my clients especially since the rates are, you know, last couple of years, they're way more people are co-owning like real estate now than they used to. And I hear all the time like well, I've never. You know my lawyer said this isn't even possible. I can't stay on the loan for a house you know that I don't live in, or something like you know it's just like well, no, anything is possible, it's what you guys want. Possible, it's what you guys want. And you guys said that you wanted your kids, you know, for the next three or four years to live in this house and so you guys agreed to co-own it. So this agreement accomplishes that.
Speaker 2:But, like I often hear back from my clients that have critiques of the creative solutions that we put in place because they're not like standard solutions, you know they would rather sell everything, divide everything, have no joint debt and call it a day. Is that's what's best for the client? I don't know, but so I'm always in the firing line from you know, being second guest and things like that, and that's why, again, like I always suggest, like hey, I don't, I know what I can do. I know this is legal, we can do it this way, but you know you guys need to feel confident in the decision. So why don't you surround yourself with your own mini team and make sure that you know this is like a well thought out plan for you, because one thing I, a mediator you know the mediation process is not about is about going through your credit card statements and making sure you can afford. You know your lifestyle or your living agreements. You know the things that we agree on. Executing on those and living afterwards is something that a mediator really doesn't do. We need you to make sure because you're in control.
Speaker 2:When you're mediating and navigating a divorce process in a more collaborative way, you're taking more ownership over your situation. So you need to make sure that you can afford to live and afford to make your payments and, you know, make sure that you can execute on the things you're agreeing on. And that's where that team comes back into play. The good part of that is, that you're not paying a lawyer $585 an hour to look through your credit card statements when you could do it yourself. But again, it's not. Not everybody wants to be able to do that. Divorce is a very challenging mentally and emotional time, and some people just can't. You know it's very hard for them to have that sort of level of concentration, and so that's why there's different processes for different people.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, and you don't have to pay your attorney to look through your credit card statements, you can pay your financial advisor. That's going to be a lot less and a better professional to do that.
Speaker 2:But when you litigate a case, they will look through it because they're going to bill hours.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, well, yeah, litigation is, yeah, a whole different story. But so the other pieces which we didn't touch on is the children, right, and just what is best for the children. And a hundred percent, if you are emotionally, physically, mentally not doing well, if there's something that isn't good for you, it's not good for your children. And the one thing that I say a lot of people do worry about is having children move out of the marital home. And so what I always tell people is that if you can't afford to stay in the matter of marital home, it's not going to be good for your children to stay in a situation where you're, you know, anxious about money. So it's better to move out and they will adjust.
Speaker 1:Kids are very resilient. So, like there's, there's a lot of things you have to think about, and that's why someone like you know me as a divorce coach can help you think those through, think all of those things through, and someone like you as a mediator who can help people understand that they have to consider the emotional piece of this. If one person is getting too much and one too little, that's not going to be good for the children, for them, for anybody.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I totally agree, the home is always like you know that's not going to be good for the children, for them, for anybody. Yeah, I totally agree, the home is always, like you know, that kind of the start and the finish of the process. But yeah, I'm always wary when one person's giving it all up for the home Makes me nervous. You know the home is not something you can get the money out of that easily. Know the home is not something you can get the money out of that easily. Um, uh, but um.
Speaker 2:Another example of kind of of what a holistic approach is, is like when you're you know, for example, when someone is being bought out of a home. So one person let's say my wife and I are getting divorced, let's say she, she wants the, she's going to own the home. So I give her ownership of the home in this settlement agreement. But I agree, for you know, for next five years I don't want my equity out of it because I know she can't refi and there's not a pot of money where we don't have $800,000 laying around to give me. But I'm also simultaneously saying you keep the house.
Speaker 2:So you know, historically homes go up. Maybe they won't this time, but over the next five years it's going to be worth more than it is now, and I'm not asking for any of that. This is a common sort of situation. So when someone takes this agreement to the lawyer and the lawyer goes but all this other stuff over here, you didn't get that, you didn't get. You know he's taking the four thousand dollar couch and the six thousand dollar, you know, golden boss and I, and then you come back and you say all this, this is all supposed to be mine too.
Speaker 2:We're supposed to split all this and I go. Well, what about my eight hundred thousand? That I'm not gonna see for five years right. So it's like a holistic, like what's best holistically, and that's's where just someone like Jill really comes into play to help you kind of maintain that, like even head in this and considering everything when you're when you're negotiating.
Speaker 1:Right, I mean everything that you give up. You know you should be able to get something that that is good for you. It doesn't have to be equal in value, but it has to be something that that is fair, you know, to you. Yeah, yeah, I want to open it up to questions. If you could put into the chat people who are here any questions related to you know what is a holistic approach or what your specific circumstances are, we will answer them. And because I think having people's you know, having examples of this, is really a great way to kind of show what a holistic approach to this, to divorce, is, because Erica will you can do this with Erica one day, cause she really is tremendous.
Speaker 1:Oh, I know she's, she's got a good. She does like a strategy session, I think, with people as a as a consulting attorney, and it sounds like a really good option. I think with people as a consulting attorney and it sounds like a really good option. But, yeah, not a lot of attorneys do that like a one-time strategy session to kind of look over your whole divorce and part of it. So put into the chat everybody who's here any questions related to this.
Speaker 1:And what you have to think about when you're thinking about doing a whole, you know, think about it holistically is what is most important to you, you know, is it, you know, the house? Is it having a certain schedule with the kids, because you can trade off. I did that in my divorce, like my. I got less financially in order to get the schedule I wanted with my children, which to me was worth it. You know it's not worth it to some other people, you know, um, but you have to decide what is most important to you, um, and what's most important to your children and your family as a whole. So we're not. Are we getting anybody putting? I don't think we are, but oh, here we go. Each party provides their own team CDFA coach and consulting lawyer, but the mediator is neutral.
Speaker 2:Okay, I'm sorry. Yes, you hired you both. Both spouses hired the same mediator is neutral. Okay, I'm sorry. Yes, you, you, you both, both spouses hire the same mediator together.
Speaker 1:So so it depends. I know I have a client, somebody on the on here, who is doing a collaborative, a team which I guess they're sharing, the financial professional which you can't do, but not not. If you're not doing a collaborative team, you would have a lot of clients where I bring in a collaborative, neutral, uh.
Speaker 2:So I'm the mediator and I say, hey, let's get this asset, like, let's get this, uh, valued or let's get someone's opinion on this issue. And they do it as a neutral. So they're they're not representing, they're not like looking after one person, the other. I was just saying that how I would set up my approaching mediation if it were me. I'm not against having a neutral financial person that like works for both of us. But I wanna know what would be a good settlement for me and why, and even more so, whether it's like a coach or the financial neutral, having someone in the room with the attorney as they're kind of giving me their settlement, you know kind of process and what they think I should, what that looks like for me.
Speaker 2:That that that's really important to remember to temper down kind of the bluster, to have that other person there to call them out, because I mean, you, you don't know. You know if they're, if they're they might be making like a legally valid argument for something, but they they're not. Maybe that's pushing you in a direction that's not as good for you as as it as it could be. So that's why having so oftentimes that's either a coach or it's an. It's the as good for you as it could be. So that's why having so oftentimes that's either a coach or it's the financial person. If your situation is more of a like financially complex but I often have in my mediations a financial neutral it just depends on you know. If you want someone, like from a financial perspective, to say, hey, you should be asking for the Roth IRA, not the traditional IRA, because the Roth has better, you know, it's tax free growth. Like a financial neutral won't give you that because, right, because they're neutral, they work for both sides.
Speaker 1:Right, exactly, I think it's. This gets a little complicated because it really depends on the situation. Right, this gets a little complicated because it really depends on the situation. If you have a very amicable divorce and I've seen it where each side is being fair financially, you can use a financial neutral that works with both sides. But if you don't have that situation which is more often the case you probably want your own financial person to double check and make sure that they're on your side and they're protecting you. Right?
Speaker 2:And also just a financial person can like evaluate your financial. I mean we're not. I know someone that like, if it's not a super complicated case, like in 90 minutes she'll type up you know everything and I mean it's not like a $10,000 investment, you know it's. I mean it's not like a $10,000 investment, you know it's. It can be pretty affordable. And if you do have, if you don't have like super complex financials and you're amicable I'm a financial neutral. I mean I'm a financial expert too. So a lot of my clients we just we keep that in house and just do it together. But when there's a question or a valuation issue, you know I want that other person to come in, so that's, that's when we bring them yeah, I yeah.
Speaker 1:That's another question. Is it a complicated financial situation? Is that there are business involved? Are they hiding money? You know so there's a lot of questions there. Yeah, if there's like um, there's some.
Speaker 2:There's things called like is there certain financial instruments, like restricted stock units, which are like stock awards, essentially, that you get when you work for a public company, like there's a whole report that has to be produced for the valuation of those and they kind of they influence child and spousal support as well as well, and so, as the I don't want someone to ask me a question about a report that I wrote when I'm the mediator, because I don't want them to think like does Scott not know what he's doing, so I bring someone else in and then they get to ask, they get to question that person and they produce that report and then I'm able to just attach that report.
Speaker 2:So I'm not like justifying it, the math or anything.
Speaker 1:Right, Right. And I think people when they hear about all these financial, all these professionals, they think that's going to be so much more than just working with an attorney Right.
Speaker 2:Or less. Yeah, remember, they don't teach math in law school, so your attorney is going to have a financial expert of their own.
Speaker 1:Right, right, exactly. I mean people. People think that their their attorney is going to know what to tell them financially, and they really don't. They only know the law. It's rare that, like for you, you're a lawyer and you have a financial background. That's rare.
Speaker 2:I think it is rare. Yeah, finances and lawyers. Lawyers are more, like you know, english and history. No, not so much on the math side.
Speaker 1:Right, exactly Any other questions that people have, because that was a really good question. You know what? What kind of a team do you form? And I just want to bring up the whole collaborative thing. So if you have a collaborative team where there's a very specific way that they work, that is not always the best thing for everybody, because I've seen time and time again that they do things in a certain way, like they bring the attorneys into the mediation you know and that's the way they do it and that's not necessarily what you need.
Speaker 1:They, you know, will make you meet with you know a family therapist, and you may need that. You may not need that, need that. You know what I mean. So, like they have a certain way of doing it. The only good thing about collaborative is that they agree that they're not going to go. They're not going to represent you if you go to court, so they have that with collaborative, the key to a successful collaborative divorce, or any time.
Speaker 2:So I'm not the reason I stopped litigating this. I want to deal with less attorneys, not more. I mean, like, I like doing this work and I like helping people, but I don't want to really deal with the as much much as the attorneys. I was literally being driven insane. So that's why I do this work now, but for the last decade. But it when attorneys come into my mediations, which I'm not like looking to do in mediation one, I will allow it.
Speaker 2:If we're going to fail, like I don't want to like hey, if these guys are going to go to court, like, then let's bring your attorneys in, but I don't want the attorneys in two separate rooms and attorneys never will say in the same room, you want to know why. They want to bull S and bluster behind closed doors and then have the mediator run to the other room and try to temper what they said to the other side. Who's going to bluster? You got to make the two attorneys hear it directly and they'll call each other out on their BS and they'll say well, you know, john, that's not true. It's not how it works in reality.
Speaker 2:So again, that's the tempering, the whole way I would set up my divorce. It's the same thing as how I now. It's hard for me to make attorneys stay in the same room A lot. Oftentimes we'll just say I absolutely refuse, but I know why they have to hear each other. That's the only way that they're gonna get you know that's how you set up a settlement, because you get the real deal. You know the real deal. Thoughts there.
Speaker 1:Will you work with people without their attorneys in separate rooms?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I, we, we always start together. But again, I reserve the right, you know, to suggest going into separate rooms. I'd say 80, 85% of the time my clients and I are in in the same virtual or in-person room because I don't want them to have questions about my impartiality. And once a mediator starts going between rooms they naturally tend to kind of the other side, like. Each side feels like they're in a way buddying up just because it's a little bit more freewheeling, because there's not the other person there.
Speaker 2:But the way that a mediation is often defeated is when one person does think that the mediators on the other's team and so like what will often happen in a mediation when you start going back and forth is or it can happen, is like one side says, well, scott said this when we were in separate rooms and I didn't say that. Scott said this when we were in separate rooms and I didn't say that. But they took it in a way and it makes it look like you know, something was said that was inappropriate and you know that makes you feel like is Scott on my spouse's team or not? And that's, that's the end of the mediation pretty much beginning of the year.
Speaker 1:We have a good question here. Can a mediator be useful when one side refuses to hire an attorney, or is this the scenario better for courts?
Speaker 2:And what do you think that that means, Jill? I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:So I think if one person is not using an attorney, you should always avoid court, you know, regardless of if somebody's using an attorney. So I think mediation is always going to be the better option. If both parties are willing to do it, at least try the mediation.
Speaker 2:Half of my clients don't have attorneys, or a little bit over half, I would say. A lot of times I don't know if they do or don't, I only can tell. Like today's mediation, I could tell that you know the whole, everything about my client changed and the language changed. Everything was so much more formal, you know, formal, so I could just tell right away. But a lot of times I never know and I don't want to know. I mean, it's not that I don't want to know, but it just doesn't come up. But you know, a lot of people can navigate mediation just hiring or a divorce, just hiring the same mediator together and kind of doing so that when I'm making proposals or making agreements I truly feel like I'm in the know and I understand what's happening. You know, I might spend twenty five hundred bucks or whatever on the, on the, on the team, before the mediation, just to to feel that comfort and to you know I think it's helpful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, absolutely. We only have a couple of minutes left, but can you give us examples from when you were litigating divorces on things that were not taking into consideration the emotional and mental impact?
Speaker 2:I mean you know when you're in litigation. You know, I don't know if anyone has ever like, if anyone you know owns a business that's been sued by an employee for something, or just any time that you're in litigation, but I mean, it is very formal, everything is formal and everything is scary and you don't understand what's happening because the process is set up for you to not be in touch with your attorney.
Speaker 2:They have 35 versions of you that they're helping or whatever they're doing. They have a lot of cases, they have very little time, they're being drugged, they're being dragged into court for emergency hearings. You know, once or twice a week in the 8 am. You can't really control your schedule. As an attorney that's litigating family law disputes. It's very hard to. So you know you're going to be calling your attorney and you're not going to be getting a hold of them.
Speaker 2:And it's not that they're a bad person or that they're being unprofessional, it's just the reality. So you'll feel like lost, you'll feel like you're stuck and I can't tell you how many times probably 25, 35 cases when I was litigating where, like I, just if I could just get a hold of the attorney and not get, you know, a 700 word email back from my voicemail, I could have settled. You know, we could have figured it out, but it's, it's. Family law is not set up for that. So, like, the lawyer can't do anything about it, sometimes each hearing is five months away from the next and then half the hearings get pushed off the day before. So you're just kind of like feeling stuck, feeling anxious, and when you go pick up your kids from school at three o'clock that doesn't go away. And guess what, when you're seeing your kids, you know, on July 4th, when you've always taken them to the mountains, and now you don't have July 4th this year, like now you're sad and stuck and there's nothing you can do about it.
Speaker 2:And guess what? Jill, if you own a business, you can't sell the business, you can't take on, you know, debt. That's new. You can't operate your business in a different way than you were, your business in a different way than you were. You can't spend new money you can't take.
Speaker 2:You know everything is controlled financially in a way where you're feeling stuck and like you know, if I'm going through divorce, my goal is to feel empowered and living my best life and dating, or you know, all these things are going to be pushed, you know, off into the future. So like, just, it's very emotionally strained when you're going and stuck in a divorce process and it's that the two reasons I don't do that work. One is I don't want to deal with as many attorneys in my life and two is I felt that for my clients and I didn't like, like I never told people, like at my kids school, what I did, not because I was ashamed of it, it's just I didn't advertise. Oh yeah, if you need, if you need to go to court to sue your spouse, let me know. Like I just, but now like I feel empowered to do what I do because I do feel like I help solve problems and the court system for family law is just not set up to solve problems very easily.
Speaker 1:Thank you. Thank you, scott. That's really helpful for people to hear because you want to avoid court at all costs and you were there, you did it for years and it's great to hear you know from your perspective and I really appreciate that.
Speaker 2:And again, I'm not judging. I know that there's two sides, none of it's a perfect solution and I have no judgment. If you're in that situation, I don't mean to judge you or to say that you're doing the wrong thing, because I understand that that life happens.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and sometimes you don't have a choice but it should be a last resort for sure? I believe so. Yeah, well, thank you so so much. I really appreciate your time and thank you everybody for coming. We will have all of your information in the notes and Scott Levin, thank you.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much.
