Build with BBB
Build with BBB
How to Sell to the Modern Buyer with Mike Crandall from Sandler Custom Growth Solutions
This episode explores the evolving landscape of sales in a post-pandemic world, emphasizing the importance of trust and efficiency. The conversation covers how small businesses can adapt their selling strategies to foster authentic relationships, minimize waste, and better understand consumer behavior.
• Emphasis on building trust through personal relationships
• Community involvement as a strategy for establishing credibility
• The need for businesses to understand client needs through questioning
• Strategies for nurturing tailored experiences for customers
• Focus on gathering client information rather than just dispensing it
Top Sandler Free Growth Resources
- How to Grow Your Business Video
https://cgs.fyi/grow - Podcast Series
- https://cgs.fyi/howtosucceed
- Available on all podcast platforms - search for "Sandler: How to Succeed"
- YouTube Channel - 100+ Growth Resources
- https://cgs.fyi/youtube
- Book: https://a.co/d/4K5EYQL
Follow BBB Serving Central Oklahoma on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn @BBBCentralOK
We really have to think about what do other people value and what do we value, and how do we start to communicate and make decisions differently from that?
Speaker 2:Hey friends and welcome back to the Build With BBB podcast. I'm your host, casey Farmer, here with longtime friend and community member Mike Crandall of Sandler Training, oklahoma. Today we're going to be talking about how to sell to the modern buyer and I think this is something a lot of our small businesses might be interested to know as you prep for 2025 what that looks like, how Sandler Training of Oklahoma might be able to give you a hand in that and provide some resources. So welcome to the podcast, mike Happy to have you.
Speaker 1:So, casey, I'm so excited to be on your podcast. You and I have known each other for a long time. We've been involved with the BBB for a long time, so when you reached out and said, hey, we'd love to have you on the podcast, I don't know that I could say yes fast enough, so super excited to be here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I will say coming to BBB, joining the team full-time Sandler Training of Oklahoma was one of the very first kind of organizations and groups that I was introduced to. I think I attended something on small business marketing and I got to meet some small businesses for the first time. And yeah, you do a lot of great work in the community and we're thankful for you.
Speaker 1:Well, I appreciate that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so tell us about Sandler Training of Oklahoma first. I think that's a pretty easy jumping off point in what you do and how you help businesses.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so our organization really focuses on three functional areas in an organization leadership, management and sales. Most of our clients come to us because they have growth objectives that they have not yet been able to reach. That could be in revenue, that could be an employee account, that could be in locations, that could be in work-life balance. But most of those business owners, or most of our clients, are small to medium-sized business owners that come to us because they know that they're not experts in growing business. They're experts in whatever their business is. They're experts in remodeling or landscaping or marketing whatever their business is. We're experts in growing business.
Speaker 2:That's wonderful. So when you are working with the businesses, is there a size parameter that you really try to go for, like one to five employees, five to ten? Who is your ideal client?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it's a great question. So our range of clients that are on some type of retainer with us right now ranges from individual solopreneurs up to a couple thousand employees, but the vast majority of our clients are usually between about three to five employees on the low end and about 50 to 70 employees on the high end. That's really the sweet spot that the majority of our clients fall into.
Speaker 2:So for anybody listening today, if a business said, hey, some of those problems that Mike mentioned, I think I need some help with that in my business, what does that look like in terms of a consultation with Sandler Training?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so that's a great question. So one of the things that I find is that most people have never actually bought outside business guidance like ours, and so a lot of times, even figuring out what does that look like, how does that work, is a challenge. So it's also unfortunate that it's really easy to spend money on coaching, consulting, training, outside services that aren't any good. So I always say that we take an approach kind of like buying something big. Very few people would buy a car without a test drive. Very few people would buy a house without walking through it and checking it out.
Speaker 1:So the very first step in our process is people just joining one of our public sessions as a guest. We've always got a guest pass and I'll give you the link if you want to put that in the show notes where people can join. We've got a webpage built. That's just how do you fill out or how do you join us as a guest. It's a quick form to fill out and then somebody from our team will visit with them and figure out what's coming up on the calendar that fits you best. After that, if you decide that, hey, this is the type of thing that could really support our business, where we're at and where we're going. Then we typically schedule about a one hour meeting to determine what steps make the most sense next, based on size, based on growth objectives, based on potential investment options and things like that.
Speaker 2:So you kind of mentioned it in your explanation of where businesses are. But I often see small businesses will bring in an outside person to do some kind of contract work with whether it's marketer, they're helping with sales or whatever it is and they kind of get burned. What are some things that businesses can do to avoid that up front? You mentioned that you've kind of got this free offering, but what questions should they be asking?
Speaker 1:things that I always encourage people to do, if they're going to bring in outside services whether that's helping with leadership, management, sales, marketing, even bringing an outsourced bookkeeper, whatever that might be is figure out some way to have, for lack of better terms, a trial period, whether that's a guest pass, whether that's hey, we're going to do step one and see if we like each other before we agree to step two, seven, nine, whatever those other things are.
Speaker 1:I know it sounds crazy simple, but a lot of times people jump in and they don't even think about what does that look like? And I'll elaborate on that. I've had a lot of people that have signed multi-year agreements to do work with somebody and they got a couple months in and they realized that, hey, this isn't what I really thought it was going to be, and I know a few people have even gotten some litigation challenges because they tried to break up with a marketing partner or they tried to break up with somebody. Before you jump into that longer thing, there should always be something that's, for lack of better terms, a test drive to figure out is it even going to line up with what we're thinking about or focused on?
Speaker 2:Yeah, super helpful, thank you. So let's get into the meat of this episode. The reason I had reached out is we have had, over the past, just a lot of small businesses say I need help with sales, or I need to figure out how to streamline my sales, or I need to know how to hire a salesperson. And you have this wonderful training program where you talk about how do we sell to the modern buyer Because there are that's a lot right. It's not just in one way that people are looking to connect with small businesses. So tell me a little bit about that.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, casey, if it's okay with you, I'm going to back up a little bit and kind of share some of the things that we see that it really led to my entire life and you know I speak all over, I coach, I consult, I train and you know I speak all over, I coach, I consult, I train, I'm a published author and gives me the opportunity to have a really good filter to process information through. And for a very long time in my life I've had people tell me that I've got this unique gift of taking things that can be somewhat complex and simplifying them. And about 10 to 12 years ago I was speaking at an event and one of the points that I brought up is that the business only has three parts. It doesn't matter what your industry is, what your business is, size, complexity, for-profit, not-for-profit. There's only three parts to any business. There's selling, whatever it is your business does, selling your products, selling your services.
Speaker 1:Then there's the delivery of that and so delivering whatever it is that you sold your products, your services, and then there's the backend operations and admin. So if you're a landscape company, you have to sell the landscape and then you have to deliver and install the landscape, and then you still have to do the bookwork and paperwork and all the legal stuff to stay in compliance. And so if you think about businesses selling, delivering, and then the backend operations and admin it's a good way to dissect this. And if we look at what a lot of times people will call the post-COVID world, because we're a couple of years past when COVID started now things have changed pretty substantially on lots of different levels and COVID didn't cause those changes. What happened is that COVID exposed those changes or accelerated those changes. And if you look at those three parts to a business selling, delivering, and then the back-end operations and admin the one that was impacted the most by things that have happened since COVID started is sales. Because if I'm installing landscaping, I'm still installing it the same way, I'm still using the same equipment, the same shovels, the same people, et cetera. I'm still doing bookkeeping the same way, I'm still processing payroll the same way, but sales getting in front of people getting their attention, getting them to say yes and agree to do business with you, has fundamentally changed, and it really boils down to two big things.
Speaker 1:We like to say that the two biggest things that have impacted that are trust and waste. If you think about what's happened the last couple of years and you're in charge of the marketing here, so you're well versed on this is that we distrust at the highest level ever so. Trust is at the lowest level ever so we mean. But the desire for trusted relationships is also at an all-time high, and a unique thing happened at the beginning of COVID, where we really didn't trust big information. We trusted what somebody next to us said or somebody that we already had a relationship with. That's why organizations like the BBB have become so important is that you guys have always been grounded in trust for all of the decades that BBB has existed.
Speaker 1:So your members reach out and say, hey, who should I trust to do fill in the blank? And the community reaches out because obviously individuals are generally not members of the BBB. If you take and you put that in a bigger picture we we want someone to trust, but we don't know who to trust. We're more suspicious and skeptical than we've ever been, and what's really happened is that we've been conditioned lots of things over the last couple of years to not believe anything we see unless it comes from somebody that we already trust and believe. So, just because I saw a Facebook ad, if it didn't come or it wasn't shared with me by somebody that I know and trust, I probably rejected it even quicker, whether that's a radio commercial or TV commercial or billboard or whatever it is what's happened, especially in the smaller businesses. It means that we have to be even more discerning in the activities that we have that are putting us out there, because are they helping us build trust or are they maybe taking resources that are actually costing us?
Speaker 2:In what ways do you see small businesses make those mistakes in terms of hey, that's not really helping your trustworthy reputation.
Speaker 1:It's interesting, almost everybody, at least in our society, was raised with something along the lines from our parents or whoever raised us. Hey, if someone starts with trust me, run the other way and we all laugh and giggle and grin, just like you are right now. But if you watch the advertising that's happened by a lot of organizations the last couple of years, things like an organization you can trust or trusted since 1976 are actually higher than ever. And I see people, especially people that have advertising spend spending more and more and more to get less and less less response because they're trying to tell people to trust them through media versus relationships. And I'll give you a good example.
Speaker 1:I've got a client that they've been in business for 60 plus years and in 2020 was the first time we ever had them really track cost per lead. We didn't start working with them until 2020, but it was a statistic they'd never tracked. So they went back and they were able to look at 2019 and an actual paid lead for them was under $100 in 2019. In 2019. In 2023, that was almost a thousand dollars for a paid lead and every time they went back to the person who was selling them the marketing and advertising to do that, they said well, you just need to spend more.
Speaker 1:And they realized that they were actually spending themselves in marketing and advertising almost out of business because they were trying to build trust through electronic messaging versus face-to-face relationships.
Speaker 2:So that's something that your team does really well. You often see Sandler training and you lead OKPSA. So tell me why or how a small business owner can start getting involved in the community in a way to build that kind of trust.
Speaker 1:Well, one of the things that we say and everybody kind of knows this on some level and it's existed for a long time, but I will tell you it's really kind of skyrocketed is just the phrase people buy from people, especially if it's something that's not a really low-priced commodity. I might buy bottled water simply on price at a warehouse place or have it delivered to my business, but when you get into things like remodeling or marketing or all the things where you're going to have to have more than one conversation like send me three cases of water trust becomes more important. And what I find most small businesses aren't doing well, or need to not as well as they could be, is figuring out how do I get around people that will say, hey, I trust you because. And so being involved in organizations, being involved in the community, being involved in places where people can get to build a relationship with you or the people on your team, becomes crucial. And so if you're in a group, maybe it's the chamber.
Speaker 1:Being part of the BBB or the OKPSA, which is the Oklahoma Professional Sales Association, are all great examples of that, because, as the member of lots of different things, I get asked questions like this Mike, hey, which member does fill in the blank? And I know when I answer that question that there's a really high percentage chance the sale is already completed if there's actually a business need there. If there's not a business need, that's a different thing. But going out and meeting people, getting involved where people can go, hey, I know, fill in the blank, name a person and that takes that people buy from people thing to a whole nother level than one other ad that's in your Facebook ads. That gets drowned out by somebody that's always going to be able to outspend you.
Speaker 2:You mentioned the other thing that you see most often is waste. Let's go down that line.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it's an interesting dynamic. So we are in a world where it's easier to waste time, energy and money now than ever, but people want to waste time, energy and money less than ever. And so when you start to think about it and back to the example of maybe some advertising I'm not saying all advertising is bad, but it's easy to waste money and not get the results that you want. So if I'm not careful, I'm wasting more. And so here's a good example when it comes to people, buy from people and waste.
Speaker 1:If you really need an hour to measure and take pictures, to put together an estimate for me to do something at my house. I know a lot of BBB members sell to homeowners, construction services etc. The challenge is that if I don't see value in that up front as the potential consumer, I automatically think that that hour is a waste. I automatically think that that hour is a waste. So the salesperson, the business owner, has to figure out how do I do a good job up front of painting the picture of why that hour is so important? Otherwise we may have already lost right up front, because if I'm a consumer and I'm looking at it that this hour might be a waste of my time. Why would I want to even put that hour on my calendar? And so when you start to break it into time, energy, money and waste, we really have to think about what do other people value and what do we value, and how do we start to communicate and make decisions differently from that what's the first step a business can do in identifying those things?
Speaker 1:yeah. So a good thing that I encourage people to do is really think about do you have a really good handle on why people have said yes to you in the last two years? And I will tell you, one of the first exercises when people do something with us beyond just a standalone workshop or bootcamp is that we will frequently have them do a best fit client exercise. And this is usually with the ownership team because it needs to be research coming from, not the sales person, especially if it's an organization that has salespeople and owner. But we always encourage them to take out a blank sheet of paper Word document, excel document, it really doesn't matter. Think about the pieces of business that you have sold in the last year to two years that you consider your best fit Doesn't mean biggest, doesn't even mean most profitable, but the jobs you enjoyed having the clients that you enjoyed working with, the people that were not a pain in the, whatever you want to say, and then really go through an exercise to say how did we get in front of them? Was it word of mouth? Was it a Facebook ad? Was it something else? Because most people really don't have a good handle on that. But then, more importantly and this is an ownership exercise making a phone call to say things like hey, casey, we really appreciate the business and so glad that you hired us.
Speaker 1:Can I ask you a couple questions? So, first and foremost, our notes show that you came to us because your friend Steve thought we were a good fit for you. Is that accurate, or did you hear about us from someplace else? I'm going to get real good info real quick. And the second thing is, casey, what made it comfortable enough for you to agree to the actual meeting where we sat down and visited? And then, casey, I'm curious did you automatically know you were going to buy from us or did you call and get information and pricing from several other people? And if you did, what made you decide on us versus one of those other organizations or people? Now, that sounds crazy simple, but most people really don't know. And what I find happens so frequently is that people haven't even dug in to figure out. How did people find us, really find us, not just what box got checked in the database. And then why did they say yes?
Speaker 2:So, after the business owner takes their time to ask those questions and then they just file it away in a box and don't do anything with it, what's that next step that they need to be doing with that information from their ideal client or repeat customer?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so one of the things that we always encourage people to do is to take that data. If they're clients of ours, we're going to help them use that data to figure out how do we refine our process. One of the things that most organizations are really not good at is simply asking for introductions. If you hired me to do something and you were happy, I kind of almost owe it to you to say, hey, who else has similar challenges or problems or things that they want? And when people do it, a lot of people don't do it. When they do it, they tend to make it awkward and uncomfortable.
Speaker 1:Hey, casey, you got any referrals for me, by the way, nobody likes that. It's awkward for both sides. But if you just told me that, hey, you know that kitchen remodel we did was awesome and you know I love everything about it. You helped me pick out the right cabinets and paint and everything else, I should really be saying, casey, who in your circle, professionally or personally, has also been talking about remodeling their kitchen, that would appreciate and I love the word introduction to see if we can support them the same way we supported you on the remodel project.
Speaker 1:The challenge is that we don't get people talking about the good and the bad and if we go back to people, buy from people. I have to create that comfortable environment to get you to say yes and then make you happy, and then I should be asking for more in a comfortable way, not a creepy. Get a card in the mail and say, hey, refer your friends to me, way creepy get a card in the mail and say, hey, refer your friends to me way.
Speaker 1:The challenge that I find is that most people haven't really even defined sales well. Society and media, specifically TV and movies, paint a picture of sales that's really icky. If you think about movies you've seen or TV shows, salespeople are generally pushy and manipulative and cheesy and sleazy and things like that, and that still exists and there's unfortunately still a lot of sales training that that's what they help people think about. But sales is really just the art of exchanging information between people, changing information between people. In our most recent book that came out, which is actually titled how to Sell to the Modern Buyer you can get it on Amazon, kindle, all the different places that you buy books. But one of the things that we talk about in there is that the definition of sales today, in the modern selling world, is a conversation between adults. To get to the truth, now, that could be hey, do you even need a quote on your insurance, or are you just thinking you need a quote on insurance because you got a piece of paper yesterday saying insurance is tripling, or whatever the business is, and what tends to happen is that we, as buyers or potential buyers, don't even bat an eye at lying to people that we think are trying to sell us something, but we don't do it in other circles. So if we reframe what buying and selling is to a conversation between adults to get to the truth which, by the way, also fits in our personal lives an awful lot. Because a question that I like to ask people is what percentage of time do people tell you the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth at work? By the way, nobody answers 100% to that. And then I ask them the same thing at home and for people that have a significant other or kids or siblings or parents, that answer is never 100%. So we have to change our side of it, because we can't change other people. So when someone calls up and says something like hey, can you come give me an estimate, we need to approach that with a little bit of skepticism. Not that they're probably lying to us, but we really owe it to them to ask really good questions. Is that really what they need, or is that what they think they need?
Speaker 1:I referenced landscaping earlier because it's one of the industries that it's so easy to get sucked into what we like to call unpaid consulting. Unpaid consulting is doing work doing an estimate, a quote, bid proposal, maybe samples, a demo without knowing what's going to happen. So if I'm a landscaper, I come to your house, I give you ideas and an estimate and I have no idea whether you're going to say yes or no or not. That's really unpaid consulting. And I have no idea whether you're going to say yes or no or not, that's really unpaid consulting. If I've already got a relationship with you and I know that you're going to say yes, you just need the design and the numbers to put it in your budget. That's a very different conversation.
Speaker 1:We can't change the other person. We can only change ourselves. So it really boils down to do we know why people say yes to us and why they say no to us. That sounds crazy simple, but most people don't. So when people engage our services, we really help them dig into why do you get yeses and why do you get noes and how do you change that dynamic. Because we can't change the other person in the equation. We can't change the people that call us. We can't change how they ask questions or if they come into our store or whatever the business is. We can only change ourselves. And the easiest way to change that dynamic is to start with gathering information versus dispensing it. Traditional sales works like this hey, mike, do you guys have this? We sure do. Let me tell you all about it. And people go into a what we like to call a feature and benefit dump. Oh, you know whatever that is, and it can be around our whole business.
Speaker 1:We've been in business for 75 years and we're awesome and let me tell you all the reasons and because trust, in a way, is people back away from that faster than ever because they're like, ooh, if the first 10 seconds was uncomfortable, what's the next 10 minutes or 10 days or 10 weeks of working with them going to be like? But when we can change our approach to say, hey, I'm more than happy to visit with you. Let me start with a couple of questions, and that sounds crazy simple, but psychology will tell us that most of us, our entire lives, we've been conditioned to answer questions, not ask them. If we don't have 100% clarity on why people say yes or why people say no, we should not hire salespeople yet, because how do I even know what I need to condition them to do so? Once I know why people say yes or why people say no, then I can really look at a sales growth plan, whether it involves me, whether it involves people on our team, whether it involves new people, new sales people, maybe new sales leaders. Because if I have clarity on why we win and why we lose and how I can pivot that, now I can figure out the type of people that I want.
Speaker 1:I will share with you that one of the greatest mistakes I see people making is they hire too early because they don't have those things figured out. And then they're frustrated because the owner's been doing it, because they're passionate about it. They started the business five years ago and they've been the only salesperson. They're like oh, if I could just find somebody else to sell, we'd get way better. And maybe their close ratio meaning the amount of calls they go on versus the sales they get is 60 or 70 percent. And they hire somebody and that goes down to 30 percent and the owner's pissed off because they're like all you do is sales and you're selling way less.
Speaker 1:And I had to do sales and and and and and. And. That's generally because we don't have why people buy from us or not, and then a system to follow to get to more of that. I always encourage people to think about it this way. Sales is not about tips and tricks. Sales is about habits and conditioned responses. Why should I buy from you If I don't have a good answer for that? That continues conversations. I'm actually pushing people away right up front. And so if I don't have answers to things like how do I respond to this, I can't even condition somebody that I hire to be able to do that next.
Speaker 2:What other things do business owners need to know about how to sell to the modern buyer? Other things?
Speaker 1:do business owners need to know about how to sell to the modern buyer. So everything really boils down to that trust and waste. How do, in my business, my industry, my geography I really go about building trust and eliminating waste for that? And then how do I make sure that I'm figuring out ways to streamline my processes? Almost all exchange of information and sales is asking questions of each other, and if I'm not asking more questions than the people that might want to buy from me, I'm leaving opportunity on the table. And yes, there's always the logistical things like name, address, whatever, depending on the businesses.
Speaker 1:But what's more important is the psychology questions like Casey, have you ever had to hire a landscaper for your house before? There's only two answers to that question yes, I have. No, I haven't. If you have, I'm going to ask you different follow-up questions. If you haven't, my approach changes an awful lot because you don't even have a benchmark in how to buy what I sell. Again, just using landscape as an example, and it seems like such a simple question to say have you ever bought this before? Have you ever hired someone like this before? But I will tell you, almost nobody asks that questions unless they're working with somebody like us because it's not their conditioned response. Most people's conditioned response is to talk hey, can you come up and give me a quote on landscaping, sure, can? I? Can be there Tuesday at 2.
Speaker 2:And don't ask any questions.
Speaker 1:There's a rule that's out of one of the early books in the Sandler Library it's called the Sandler Rules of one of the early books in the Sandler library is called the Sandler rules and there's a rule in there that says your value as a sales professional is determined by the information you gather, not the information you dispense. Sounds crazy simple, but if I'm the business owner, if I figured that out and if I'm going to hire people, have I helped them figure out what information they need to gather besides name and address?
Speaker 2:So, Mike, for anyone listening today who might want to connect with Sandler offline, get to know you a little bit more. What's the best way to connect?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I'm guessing that you put some of this stuff in the show notes.
Speaker 2:I'll have lots of links.
Speaker 1:So the easiest way to always start a conversation with us is the guest pass form and I'll get that to you so you can put that in the show notes, because if somebody fills that out, it allows us to start a conversation, to figure out, hey, what's going on in your business and let's figure out what sessions. And one of the things that's an interesting byproduct of the post-covid world is that all of the things we deliver publicly, now we deliver blended room and Zoom simultaneously. So whether you're here in Metro, oklahoma City or Central Oklahoma and you want to come in person, or whether you're a little bit farther away and you want to join on Zoom, we can do that. The other ways that are good to connect with me is to follow or connect on all of our social media. I'll make sure that our company and my personal social media is in all of those things.
Speaker 2:Perfect. That sounds great. Mike. Thank you so much for being here today and chatting about how to sell to the modern buyer For anybody listening today. If you've got questions about what Mike talked about, feel free to leave them down below and maybe we'll do a follow-up episode. We're looking at filming for 2025 and what that might look like. I'm sure we have lots of things that we can talk about to help businesses set up for success next year. Thank you so much for listening. We look forward to seeing you in the next episode. Bye, friends.