Exploring Caribbean Folklore with Kesha Christie

In this episode of The Moreish Podcast, Hema and Kesha, a Jamaican-Canadian storyteller, chat about the rich tradition of Caribbean folklore. 

Kesha discusses the timeless relevance of folktales, the cultural significance embedded in them, and how they have evolved and intermixed across Caribbean countries. From trickster tales featuring Anansi to the eerie stories of Lagahoo and La Jablesse / La Diablesse, Kesha explains how these narratives continue to shape social behaviours and cultural identity. She also touches on the influence of colonization and the fusion of African, Indian, and Indigenous traditions in Caribbean folklore.

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Transcript

Kesha:   What I love the most about the folklore is it's not new. These are gems that have been passed down for generations and it doesn't matter how  rich it is, or how old, air quotes,  it's relevant today.

Hema: Good morning, Kesha. How are you?

Kesha: I am doing well. How are you?

Hema: I'm great. I'm so excited to talk to you face-to-face. We've been conversing for a little while over email, because I have been enjoying your videos. So I wanted to have you on to talk about something that, is sort of common, a commonality amongst all Caribbean countries.

But before we dive right into our topic, why don't you introduce yourself?

Kesha: Absolutely. My name is Kesha Christie and I am a storyteller. I have a way with words is what I've always been told, but very shy. I was afraid to speak in public and I thought, let me fix that. And so I started working on my public speaking skills and someone asked me to tell a folktale and I was like, folktales, that's my life. And I told the story, but it was very different than my other connections, like motivational speaking and stuff like that. The connection with the audience was just something that I was like, Oh, and I'm tingling. And ever since then, I was like, I'm a storyteller. 

And someone called my bluff and said, Oh yeah, well come and tell a story in front of like 300 people. Okay. And I had to figure it out real quick. So I relied on the things that I knew, the things that I loved. Miss Lou, I dressed the part, I acted the part, I danced the part. And when I told that story, I was like, Wow, there's a magic here. And it's just like, we hear about the magic that stories have. But this was a whole experience.

And I was like, everyone needs this. And so I've been telling stories for nine years now, almost. Yeah.

Hema: You hold events in and around the city. You do live storytelling, you have a podcast that you're reviving, so you do audio storytelling. Where are you located?

Kesha: I'm in Toronto. I'm in Ajax, so about half an hour east.

Hema: And so most of your events happen in sort of the GTA? 

Kesha: Yes.

Hema: What is your Caribbean connection? 

Kesha: It's not obvious. Uh, I'm Jamaican, born in Canada, Jamaican heritage. It's like my parents always said, whether it doesn't matter whose house I was in, Canada's outside. When you're here. This is Jamaica. So, um, that's where it went.

Hema: So you grew up, much like I did, born in Canada, uh, in a Trinidadian family, Indo-Caribbean family, and inside the house is different than outside the house. 

Kesha: Yes.

Hema: Yes, we have…that's a commonality in amongst a lot of the people that I speak with. And so, you know, I think we have a slightly different experience than people who were born and raised or lived a long time of their life in the different Caribbean countries.

One of the things that was pervasive throughout my childhood, and I imagine yours too, is storytelling, and specifically folklore.

Kesha: Absolutely.

Hema: It is just the stories that we hear and that we grow up knowing and understanding and being a part of a culture.  What is folklore?

Kesha: Folklore is the creative way that we give ourselves to our culture, to our people. We share, lessons. We share valuable lessons. We share our traditions, our beliefs. All of that is passed down in these neatly wrapped stories, where they just have a little bit of, a little bit of magic in each time they're told.

There's a story for almost every experience there is known to man. And in our families, stories were what guided us. If my mother didn't want me to go somewhere, I heard about, you know, the Douen or, you know, and it's like, oh, well, I'm not going out at night if that's going to happen.

There were stories about Anansi, how, you know, that resilience, that, that spark, the love of nature.

We talk now, a lot of the things that we're talking about now, affirmations and, you know, meditation, being close to nature, all of these things were dazzled and drizzled in every story that was has been told. What I love the most about the folklore is it's not new. These are gems that have been passed down for generations and it doesn't matter how rich it is, or how old, air quotes, it's relevant today.

Every time you hear it, it's relevant today. And I'm blown away how, when I get introduced to stories or when I'm sharing stories, it, they, they take a life on their own, but when they take on that life, it's like relevant in this very moment, something that might've happened five seconds ago, just comes out in the story.

And I'm like, This is awesome!

Hema: It is, a little bit of, maybe a little bit of truth, a little bit of fantasy, a little bit of lesson, sort of all balled into a story that's easy for a child to understand, easy for adults to understand. 

Kesha: Yes, absolutely. I mean, these are the stories that when we're told as children, when we're told these stories as children, we learn our social behaviours from these stories. Being kind, being gracious, sharing. These are all things that are woven into these stories. You didn't realize them because you were so attached to the character, but when you have a real-life situation, you remember that character experience and then here you are. 

Hema: Some of these tales, are a little bit scary. My, my uncle was convinced or would, would portray himself to be very convinced that there Lagahoo living in the neighbourhood. And he would, he would tell the story all the time and I, as a kid, I would ask him to tell it all the time because it was fun, it was funny, but also a little bit scary.

And we'll get into what a Lagahoo is, but I want to mention that, we're going to be focusing on the Caribbean in this conversation, but folklore exists in many different cultures.

Kesha: Every culture.

Hema: So let's, let's dive into folklore in the Caribbean and how it sort of is a part of daily life, or is it a part of daily life?

Kesha: It's absolutely a part of daily life. It's in our music, it's in the culture, the way we speak, that rhythm of life. Folklore is that, the roots, the, the foundation of everything that, that we're doing today.

Hema: And it doesn't come out as, okay, so now I'm going to tell you a story. It is just it's integrated and interwoven. 

Kesha: Yes. Yes, it's just, it's that, the string that connects us. Like the worlds, we're all connected in different ways, but there's that thread that literally connects us all and it's our folklore. It's that underlying knowing. That connects us in every situation.

Hema: Where does it come from? For us, in the Caribbean?

Kesha: Well, we know predominantly that a lot of the stories that we hear, especially in Afro-Caribbean heritage, the stories originated in Africa and were, brought with the people. They were the stories that provide nourishment and encouragement. But there was a whole section of time where, slavery was abolished, as much as we understand it to be. But then there were indentured servants that came from around the world, from India, from Germany, and Ireland, that came to the Caribbean and landed in different places. Plus there's the influence of the colonizers that resonated on the islands. So our stories that had this one form of richness ended up being dazzled with all this different influence and that, we were able to take on characters or change places that were more Caribbean in nature.

Our characters took on a different shape and form. When you listen to some of the stories, my favourite type of storytelling is when one teller tells one story as they know it and then everyone else tells their version and it's just we're just like, woah, and it's the same story, but it's got this this the zhuzh this the sweetness. It's almost like soup. Um, you have your basics and then somebody's gonna say no no, no, you need to put in a little chocho. No, no, no, you need to throw and a yam, a little bit that there's a little bit of that and when you're done you're like Ohhh, that’s good.

Hema: I love that so much because listening to somebody tell the story, add their enthusiasm, or their spookiness. Oof. It's fantastic. It's fantastic.

Kesha: Tingles.

Hema: Tingles. Was there, is there any folklore that still exists in the Caribbean that stems from the Indigenous cultures?

Kesha: Oh yeah. A lot of the stories that we hear now that talk about, having a closeness with nature or anything that's, you know, talking about spirits that are given rain or fire as, as, a name or a characteristic, that is where you'll find the Indigenous lifelines, coming through the folklore, because that was, having that spirituality, having that respect for the environment and how we connect to it is the underlying theme of what the Indigenous people wanted us to know and still want us to embrace and respect.

Hema: Yeah. Would you say that, depending on, so you, you were saying that, the enslaved Africans, brought over the stories from wherever they came from, and that's where a lot of it stemmed from. Also the indentured servants, and anybody else who had influence into what the culture is like today in the Caribbean.

Do you think that they all intermingled, and so in one story you might find tidbits from each culture, or are they still separate?

Kesha: No, that separation does not exist. I mean, certain places you go, like the stories that are told in Guyana, Trinidad, and Suriname are mostly, um, Hindu-based. Like there, there are characters that are based in there. But they mingle. Like people travel and when they travel, they carry their stories.

And when they share their stories, then someone else needs to tell or retell the story. And so it's a beautiful thing in that it becomes something new. And for a storyteller, when you, when you have a story or you meet a story that sticks, you have to make that story your own. So when it's retold, it's retold with that main under, underlying meaning and expression, but then you're adding your own experience. You're adding your own environment. So the stories are no longer separate. And when you go from island to island, the stories still have that thread that connect us all. So I wouldn't say that they're separate at all.

Hema: They're all intermingled, much like the culture, right? 

Kesha: Absolutely. Absolutely. And it's a beautiful thing.

Hema: Yeah, it, it absolutely is. I was, as I was researching and getting ready for our conversation today, one of the things I was reading said that really the folklore that we hear in the Caribbean is different, even though it stems from whether it's India or, the British or Africa, the, the version that we're telling now, somebody in, let me just say somewhere in Africa, would not really understand the version because it's been so changed.

And it was referred to as the creolization of the folklore and the stories. Would, would you say that that, do you think that is a correct assumption or a correct way of speaking about it?

 Kesha: The way we tell stories in the Caribbean is very different than the way stories are told in other countries. So, their settings are different, they way that they tell, the music that's out, the rhythm that the story is given is different. But it's that rhythm. It's still stemming, like the drum will be used just a little bit differently, but it carries that story, carries that story, it triggers your emotions differently but it's the same emotion. So it's still got, it's still that value. It's still that richness. It's just a different, you know, tell a story during the day. Tell a Duppy story during the day, meh. Tell a story, a Duppy story at night. No. Yeah.

Hema: So, okay, so we've been talking in generalities, storytelling, folklore, where it comes from, the history of it. Let's get down into like the nitty gritty and share some of these, some of these tales and some of these characters. 

Is there any character, story, folklore that you will find in every single Caribbean country? 

Kesha: For me, I would say the trickster character. Now, in a lot of the islands, when you walk anywhere and you say Anansi, everybody knows. But Anansi takes on so many different names depending on which island you go to. So some of the time, you know, you might say Anansi, you might say Peranansi, you might say something a little bit different. But everyone kind of grasps and knows you're telling a trickster tale. But there are also other trickster characters, like Compère Lapin, uh, whether you're in, St. Lucia, you've got the French speaking islands, but that's a trickster character, you know, so you grab on quickly. And, so, the theme of the character, that trickster archetype, is in every island. 

In Trinidad, you'll see, Monkey Tales are the trickster stories. So that archetype is everywhere. The way the stories are told, a little bit different. But what I've noticed recently is that a lot of the stories, share those, those characters are now combined in stories. Like now I'm seeing stories where Anansi and Monkey are integrated in the story. So now you've got two trickster archetypes in the same story. And so it's like you're looking at that and even though it's There may be different animal characteristics, they're the same archetype.

Hema: Interesting. That's interesting. Spider and Monkey now becoming this, essentially the same story. 

I referenced Lagahoo earlier in this conversation because it's one that I grew up with. Let's talk about that one as an example. Where, what is, what is a Lagahoo?

Kesha: A shapeshifter. So the story of Lagahoo is really, it could be anybody. Predominantly, you find that this character is a woman, an older woman, who during the day lives alone, you know, does her own, everything by herself, but at night time, just becomes something different. And these are the stories that are told to keep you in your house. 

But when we say shapeshifter, and we look at the media and what we're seeing today, hi, we're seeing shapeshifters all the time in our science fiction stuff. A lot of the, I want to say horror as a genre, they take a new form and it's like, listen. You guys weren't the first to do that. But it's interesting to see how they're taking that once historical person, that historical gem that we carried from generation to generation and making it widestream for today.

Hema: Yeah. The shapeshifter, right? And I love the way you described it. It's like this, this person who every single day is your neighbour, is the woman down the street, is somebody you might see at the market, but at nighttime they shift into an animal?

Kesha: It could be another person. That's so it keeps evolving. So back when we were first sharing these stories, generations ago, the shapeshifter would become an animal. But now the shapeshifter, depending on who's telling the story, becomes another person. They have the same voice as your great great great great grandmother and they look the same and then they lure you in. So it's all about that lure and how to get you.

Hema: And this one is a scary story, right? Because when they're shifting, it's for wickedness. They're not shifting to come tuck you in bed at night.

Kesha: No, absolutely not.

Hema: Where does that come, where does that particular story come from?

Kesha: So that's where you'll find a lot of stories about the Lagahoo in Trinidad and Guyana, even Suriname. Those are, that's where, those stories, you'll find a lot of them in their original, I would say original, but, um, un, um, media tainted form.

Hema: And is, so is that a, an African origin, Indigenous origin, Indian origin? Do we know?

Kesha: It's an Indian origin.

Hema: It is an Indian origin. Gosh, I would love to, I would love to dig back and find out what the original story was.

Kesha: I'm still looking for it. When I find it, I'll let you know.

Hema: And the other one that I grew up with is what I would, the way I grew up saying it is La Jablesse.

Kesha: Mm hmm.

Hema: But I, I hadn't seen it written until much later in life, which actually is La Diablesse, which is French, correct?

Kesha: Hmm. Mm hmm. It is.

Hema: Yeah.

Kesha: I still say La Jablesse.

Hema: Same. I can't say La Diablesse, that doesn't feel right to me. But, so La Jablesse is, my family is Trinidadian, this is one that I grew up with. Let's talk about this, this story.

Kesha: La Jablesse. woman. Beautiful woman, usually depicted in a nice, close fitting dress at the top. And then the skirt kind of loose, um, fluffs out with this big, beautiful, floppy hat. And you often see her on the road with one foot on the road and one foot on the grass. And it's said that the foot on the road reveals a sexy, luscious leg. And the other one cow hoof. 

And she’s known, there's a story that's told for men who are out at night, tend to get lured by beautiful women. She will lure them to her, and then suddenly they end up drifting off cliffs or they just disappear. That's how it goes.

Hema: And that, the storytelling there, the lesson there is? 

Kesha: Don't go out with strangers. Mind your P's and Q's. Like when you're out at night, don't drink yourself till you don't know if you don't have sense. Like, you have to keep yourself sharp.

Hema: Don't get lured in by that pretty woman and watch for that cow foot.

Kesha: Exactly. No one ever gets to the cow foot. They are looking everywhere but the foot, right?

Hema: Okay, what is the origin of that one?

Kesha: That one, again, I find is, in Jamaica, we tell that story a lot. And there's so many different versions. So I would say that it's more, Afro-Caribbean in nature, but influenced, we have heavy influences fro, the Indian, and South Asian backgrounds, the way the story is told when they describe the woman, and that, that spiritual, spirituality that's inserted into the story, a combination of both.

There are a lot of stories that we tell that are a combination of that African heritage and that South Asian heritage coming, marrying together in the story.

Hema: Why then a name that sounds French? La Diablesse.

Kesha:  Okay, so the reason would be because of colonization and who was around at the time, because a lot of the stories that we told were for fortitude, for the, the people during the time. And the stories that we often talk about are really, overcoming, overcoming the oppressor, or, lessons to not just the grownups, but for children as well. And so at that time, it could be that the French were in rule at that time. Just like a lot, you'll, you'll hear a lot of Spanish. You'll hear a lot of, French and that European influence, that Christianity, but it's inserted into the stories. It's because of who was colonizing the, this space, the island at the time that the story started to spread or the, the, the time the story was changed from its original.

Hema: As you're just describing that, it is sort of, in a nutshell, what the culture is like in different Caribbean countries. Depending on who was brought there, who colonized and stayed for a very long time, shifted and shaped the culture to what it is today, which is why every single country has this slightly different makeup, has slightly different versions of the food and what I call callaloo might not be the same as another country, but it's, but it's all sort of intermingled and intermixed in a different way, which is why we each have a commonality in our cultures and there are differences in our cultures.

Kesha: Yes. That's why we're such a beautiful people. It's on every level.

Hema: It is on every level and in, in everything. 

I'm gonna talk about Duppy, 'cause you also mentioned that one. So anybody who doesn't understand what a Duppy is, what is it?

Kesha: A Duppy is a malevolent spirit, a ghost, they're mischievous. So it's said, put it this way, it's said that when you pass away or someone you know passes away that there's the good spirit and there's the not so good spirit. Now in Jamaica, we tell people that for three days your spirit walks the earth and in that three day time you have some decisions to make and the good part of you goes off into the ever after, whatever that looks like for you. 

But if you have some things that are undone, some things that need to be taken care of, that not so great side of yourself will stay to complete those things. And, if they're not completed, you can end up staying for a long period of time and attached to things. If you are, uh, there is some injustice and what remains of that injustice is some type of bounty. 

For example, this cup. Just giving you an example. Your spirit could attach to that thing. So every person who ends up with this item, you know, has some experiences as long as it is in their ownership. But that's when we have our Duppy Conqueror stories where we tell you how to conquer the, the, not so great D uppies and what they do. But the stories keep you inside when they need to.

Hema: Mmmm

Kesha: And keep you curious in other cases.

Hema: Where, where would you find the Duppy? Is it, it's not in every single country.

Kesha: Yes! Just by different names. For example, the Cotton Tree, in Jamaica we say, okay, you know, don't play under there because that's where the spirits hang  out. That's where the spirits are pulled. It's like a portal there. But, Jumbie Tree. Say he's in Trinidad. Same thing, just different names. So Jumbies, Duppy, Ghosts in North America.

They're the same and you've got the, the good and the not so, and the not so good. And it just depends on the flair or that, cultural experience that gets added to the story to change it to what you, what it needs to be, to be, resonate with the people from the, that area. So it’s everywhere. 

Hema: Interesting. It's, it's everywhere just by a different name.

Kesha: Yes.

Hema: A lot of these characters, when you mentioned Jumbie, we're recording this in January and Carnival is on my mind. So there, that comes out into some of the characters and the costumes that are shown in Carnival, right?

Kesha: Yes, there are certain experiences that we have, where we dress up, and now the dressing up is a little less dressing up than it used to be. The theme is still there, that underlying foundation is still present, and the parades are really, for example, an expression of freedom, that defiance, that overcoming of the oppressor is still evident in, the way that we do Carnival. But there are different characters that appear in, I’m going to say different forms, just because we're generations removed, that still exist. Like, there's still, the characters that seem to be representative of oppressors.

There are characters of, that freedom, that, that zealous, that, that, that religiousness. Um, my mind is on Junkanoo just because Christmas just passed. And so we've got those characters where we've got the, the, uh, the woman pregnant, we've got the cow head, we've got, you know, so those are the characters that are standing out in my mind now.

But then, you know, we also cover our skin, like, in oil, that, that, that, that, that, that second step or third step of defiance that we're, we're here. And yes, this is rich for you, but it's also a purest example of my freedom now, we're still exhibiting in everything that we do. And even though we're now removed and the costumes are changed, but now look at the colours, look at the, the, the way we're, we're presenting them.

It's still, putting, putting us, on the street, feet on the ground, celebrating our defiance, showcasing our music. This is our freedom. We're here. And when we come out at Carnival, we come out as a mass. 

Hema: And you will see everybody of every age, every background on the road.

Kesha: Yes.

Hema: Yes. We've talked about a couple of different characters. Are there any that are not quite so scary?

Kesha: Of course!

Hema: Because the ones we've talked about are a little bit, you know, they instill a little bit of fear, right? They're telling you a lesson. They're, they're sort of warning you against something. But, I can't think of one from my childhood that is not scary.

Kesha: Really? Okay, so we've got, we've got the Anansi Trickster stories. We've got Comprere Lapin, um, who's another type of funny, hihihi character. But then, a lot of those stories, they interact with others. For example, Toad and Donkey, the story of Toad and Donkey in Jamaica is similar to, The Tortoise and the Hare.

And I tell the stories together, on purpose, to see who picks up on it. Um, I also tell the different versions of The Hare and the Tortoise. And I, and I, I have What? That's not how the story goes! But how do you know? Were you there? So I like to kind of play with them with it that way by showcasing these characters who are not always scary.

And no, they're not always big or they're not a tiny spider, but they've got to use that cleverness to overcome their challenge, in the same way. So I do dabble with the different characters. And sometimes what I love is that a lot of our characters are animals and they have human characteristics. So you can now play on social issues when you're telling your story.

Instead of it having to be a Black and a White person, now you can have, a hen and a hawk. And it's like, but they're both birds! Ah! So you get it now. so, um, when you're able to play with the characters, you help people to see their situations a little bit differently. So that's why there's so much power in the characters that may not be so scary, but the ones that are, they have their place too.

Hema:  I want to, before we wrap, I want to ask the question about religion and folklore. For me, a lot of the folklore seemed to be attributed to Obeah. And Obeah, while stems from religion, depending on who you talk to, people don't believe it to be. And this is a whole other conversation, but let's talk about that.

Kesha:  It is. So like I said, the stories that we've been passing down for generations, they give a little bit of insight on who we are. So it's our traditions and definitely our religion. And when you listen to the stories, depending on what ear you're using or what lens, let's say, you'll recognize certain things.

So yes, definitely Obeah, but Santaria, Voodoo, it's all kind of dabbled in there and it's a nod to that witchcraft…pieces. But then you also have to look at the influences in, the Hindu religion, um, Christianity, you'll find that some of the stories are now, Bible verses. You'll catch some versions that have the Bible verses.

You'll catch some that have that, that, instead of that evil and good. They're now, fluffy might not be the best word, but you know, they've softened. I've noticed that a lot of the stories now that I tell, I can't always say so and so dat. It depends on the audience. So I can tell an original, which is just generations removed, or I have to tell a newer version where the ending is more vague and you don't share them.

 Some of the time you have to gloss over those areas that are heavy, um,

Hema: Right.

Kesha: Um, in the religion, just because not everyone understands, especially when you're talking about Obeah, everyone's like, oh, it's, it's, it's evil. It's bad. And it's like, that's a whole different conversation where we got to, you know, unprogram, reprogram your thinking on this beautiful religion and, know, help you with, clarification, help you with that understanding.

But the stories also, keep you curious so that you're asking more and wanting to find out more about what makes up your religion, what makes you who.

Hema: When it comes to something like if an owl flies over your house, then somebody's going to die. That sentiment. Is that folklore?

Kesha: Yes. So folklore is so many different pieces. There's the stories themselves, it's the ceremonies, it's the telling of the tales in the way that they're told, with the music and the chanting and the proverbs. These are the things that were beliefs and when you track them back, the Indigenous people have similar beliefs which are still relevant in the Proverbs and the stories that we tell. So it was passed down through the generations, through the stories we tell. Um, the Indigenous people, storytelling was a big part of their ceremonies. And so it just keeps coming, keeps evolving and coming forward into the next generation.

Hema: And as you talked about earlier in the conversation is the Indigenous people, there was a lot of nature involved in their storytelling. And I don't know, I'm going to say, I don't know if I said that correctly. Is it, is it if an owl passes over your house somebody will die?

Kesha: There are different versions depending on, where, which island you're from and where you live. So that version is probably correct, depending on where you're from.

Hema: Don't come for me if I was wrong. I'm trying to remember. 

Okay, I want to mention that you do have a podcast where you tell some of these stories. What's it called?

Kesha: My podcast is called Walk Good and the premise behind it is to bring back those stories, sharing it with, everyone in the diaspora, everyone from the Caribbean, just to put a bug in your ear. Remember these stories? Remember this, this chant? And so I don't really go into a discussion. I really just share the story in my own special way.

And then I leave it for you to continue that conversation with your families. And so when I rap, I always say, you know, share the story with a friend and come back for the next one. Because that's what we do. That's what stories are meant for. They're meant to be put out and the person who receives it should share it.

Hema: I'm going to leave a link to your podcast and your website in the show notes so people can connect with you and see what you're up to. 

And we're going to wrap for today, but we're going to come back in another episode to talk about a story that we already mentioned today. The trickster in, in the version that you want to tell it. So thank you so much for joining me today and I'll see you soon.

Kesha: Oh, you're welcome. Pleasure to be here.