Papiamentu: The Language of Curaçao with Sheedia Jansen

Exploring Papiamentu: The Unique Language of Curaçao

In this episode of The Moreish Podcast, Hema and guest Sheedia Jansen delve into the 300-year-old history of Papiamentu, the vibrant lingua franca of Curaçao.

Sheedia, a Freedom Alchemist born and raised in Curaçao, explains how Papiamentu emerged from a blend of influences from West Africa, Portuguese, Dutch, Indigenous Caquetios, and Spanish cultures, and is a result of Caribbean colonization. 

The conversation highlights the evolution of the language, its official recognition in 2007, and its survival in the face of past colonial restrictions. Speaking to the rich cultural tapestry of Curaçao, Sheedia also discusses her own efforts in promoting the language through her online course and the importance of preserving such a unique aspect of her heritage.

Connect with Sheedia:
https://www.heysheedia.com/
Learn Papiamentu with Sheedia
YouTube
Learn Papiamentu YouTube playlist
The Dungeon podcast

Episodes mentioned:
History of Curaçao with Sheedia
Curaçao's Culinary Heritage
Puerto Rican History with Laura Ortiz

Transcript

Sheedia: Papiamentu is a language with a 300 year old history. It's called a lingua franca, which is a language that was formed because different people groups were trying to connect with each other.

And particularly with Papiamentu, you had the people that were  taken from the West African coast who came with Portuguese influences. You had the Dutch here, you had  back then still a little bit of influence from the Indigenous people of the island. And obviously, you have Spanish very close by with Venezuela being, I mean, you can literally see Venezuela from here. So that's all those little mixes became  Papiamentu.

Hema: Hi Sheedia, welcome back to The Moreish Podcast.

Sheedia: Hey, thank you for having me. 

Hema: I’m so excited about this conversation about language because it is one that we really haven't tackled a whole lot on the podcast which is the languages, other than English, that is spoken in different countries in the Caribbean.

Sheedia: Yes. And I'm excited to share more about Papiamentu because I'm really passionate about it.

Hema: Before we dive right into the topic, why don't you give us a quick little recap of who you are, where you live, and, and then we'll talk a tiny little bit about the history that we covered the last time as a refresher, and we'll dive right in.

Sheedia: Alright. Hello, I'm Sheedia Jansen from the beautiful island of Curaçao where I lived my entire life. What I do professionally is I am a Freedom Alchemist. That is like the overarching theme of what I do. And what that means is I help people experience more freedom by challenging the norms. And the ways that I do that is one through my podcast called The Dungeon, where we challenge taboo  Caribbean subjects.

I do that through my coaching, I also do that through teaching Papiamentu, which we're going to be talking more about that. I have a Papiamentu course online. And lastly, I organize racial awareness events that help people talk about the topic of race more because we do, we don't talk about it enough in general. Yeah. 

Hema: You are in Curaçao   right now.

Sheedia: Yes, I am. Yes.

Hema: And before we hopped on and hit record, Sheedia was telling me that she just got back from the beach, and I'm In Toronto, I'm really jealous of, of where you are currently, but excited for you to share a little bit more about the language of Curaçao. The last time we talked, you had given us a bit of history of the people of the island 

Sheedia: Yeah.

Hema: and where they all came from. And I think that's going to come into the conversation, and the influences and the language. So do you want to give us a little recap of that?

Sheedia: Yes, so Curaçao's original inhabitants were the Caquetios, which is an Arawak speaking tribe. Interestingly enough, this week I found out that those terms like Caquetios and Tainos and those type of things are actually words that the Europeans gave the people.

And I haven't gone, it was like a thought that I found on the internet, but I'm like, huh. And we don't really know fully what the actual names were for a lot of the tribes. So, that in itself is interesting. 

Hema: You know, when we were talking about  Dominica, for example, they recently changed the name of the Indigenous people back to the original Kalinago. 

Sheedia: Mm hmm. Yeah, I think it had to do with that, the thing, the little hint that was dropped when I was crawling the net.

Yes, yes. So the Caquetios people, who were originally from the Venezuelan main coast, were the ones that inhabited the island, they were a travelling people, so they went back and forth between Curaçao and the mainland. Then along came the Spaniards, who did not really play a big role in the island's history.

They came in 1499, because they didn't really find much use for the island. So it was easy for the Dutch to take over in 1634. And, they did find a lot of use for the island, especially its location, the harbour, and stuff like that. And they were the ones that also started the Transatlantic Slave Trade, which is the reason why a majority of the population is of Afro descent.

Hema: And then there were a couple of other  groups of people that you mentioned, the Sephardic Jews that came from Portugal. 

Sheedia: Oh yeah, that plays a big role as well in the language. So, they came from Portugal through Spain, and sought refuge in the Netherlands. And when the Netherlands, when the Dutch came to Curaçao, they brought them along, specifically around the 1650s they started coming. So they have played a huge role alongside the Dutch in forming the basics, like the foundations of the island.

Hema: I will add a link to the previous episode all about the history. And we also did a second one about food. So I'll link both of 

Sheedia: Yes.

Hema: cause those are really, interesting, that will also help you understand a little bit more about what we're going to talk about, which is language.

Sheedia: Yes.

Hema: What is the official language of Curaçao?

Sheedia: We have three. So, Papiamentu is, it's the most widely spoken language. It is the local language so that's official. But also Dutch and English are official languages. In addition, Spanish is also widely spoken. So, a majority of Curaçao, and so if you go through the school system here, you learn all four languages.

And it's not like, in some places where you learn these languages in school and you never speak them. It's, you hear it all the time. So even if you're not necessarily fluent in all of them, you can definitely have a conversation and like, fend for yourself in all those four languages, yeah.

Hema: Most of us already know three of the languages that you talked about, but Papiamentu is a new one for me and what we're going to focus on in this episode.

Sheedia: Papiamentu is a language with a 300-year-old history. It came, it's called a lingua franca, which is a language that was formed because different people groups were trying to connect with each other.

And particularly with Papiamentu, you had the people that were taken from the African, West African coast who came with Portuguese influences. You had the Dutch here, you had, back then still a little bit of influence from the Caquetios, so the Indigenous people of the island. And obviously, you have Spanish very close by with Venezuela being, I mean, you can literally see Venezuela from here, so that's how close it is. And yeah, so that's all those little mixes became Papiamentu.

Hema: So there are two languages with similar names that I want to ask you about. Papimentu and Papimento. Can you 

Sheedia: Yes.

Hema:  talk about the difference and where each of them are spoken. 

Sheedia: Yes. So, that. Uh, both languages are languages of the ABC islands. So Aruba, Bonaire, Curaçao. Sometimes they're grouped together. Sometimes people only speak of Papiamento, but they mean Papiamentu. So to break it all down, Papiamentu is spoken in Curaçao and Bonaire, and Papiamento with an O is spoken in Aruba. And the difference is in how the language, the biggest difference is how the language is written. So, with Papiamentu, which is my language and that of Bonaire as well, it's written in a phonetic way. So you write it the way you hear it. Very straightforward with that. And then with Papiamento, um, I don't remember how you say it. I think it's etymological? 

So you write it based on the origin of the word, which is completely different than how we do it. So an easy example is if you write, if you think of the word computer, it's kòmpüter in Papiamentu and Papiamento, but in Papiamento with an O, they'll write it exactly like you hear it in, in English, computer, because that's the origin of the word in the way that they're saying it, versus in Papiamentu, we then, write it, it starts with a K, it has an O with an accent, an M, a P, a U with the double, um, dots on it, T E R, so.

Hema: And so when you’re talking about how it’s written with like the O with the dots, what is, what language is influencing that? 

Sheedia:  I think it, it's, it was created in order to use those, for those letters to mean something in Papiamentu. Now in Spanish you have them, in Portuguese, which both are heavily influenced in Papiamentu, they do have those accents as well. But with Papiamentu specifically, since we have certain words that sound more like the Dutch words, so kòmpüter, ü, which is not something you have in English.

That ü, we made it by taking a u and putting those two dots on top of it. So that's how you get the ü.

Hema: So already just in that one word you were talking about, the influence from three different languages. 

Sheedia: Yeah.

Hema: That then come together to form Papiamentu.

Sheedia: Exactly. Exactly. 

Hema: When I was listening to and watching your YouTube video, which was a very short introduction to Papiamentu, my ear was saying these words sound really familiar.

Sheedia: Uh huh.

Hema: So there's some influence there in the way it's spoken. Now I wasn't following in the way it was written. I was just listening to the way you were speaking the words. And what influences do you think I was hearing there? I know a little bit of Spanish, I don't know any Dutch. 

Sheedia: It's mostly Spanish. Yeah, a lot of people when they hear it, if they know Spanish, they'll say it sounds like Spanish. If they know Portuguese, they'll say it sounds like Portuguese. But to me, Spanish and Portuguese do have a lot of similarities. 

So, when people ask me, if you speak Spanish, will you be able to understand Papiamentu? I'll say, to an extent, the same as a Spanish-speaking person can understand some Portuguese, to an extent. But it's not like you can understand everything that people are saying.

Hema: So you said, 300 years

Sheedia: Yes.

Hema: Was the language, did it begin in the ABC islands?

Sheedia: Yes. Yes. So, the actual Papiamentu came, was formed here. It doesn't come from anywhere else, but it's influences, it's heavily influenced by Portuguese because in West Africa, that's what they were speaking. That's where, that, they were colonized there first and then came here. What's interesting is in Cape Verde and Guinea-Bissau, the languages that they spoke, the Criollo that they have there, is I can understand it, and they can understand some Papiamentu too.

And I, and I feel like I can understand them better than I can understand, let's say, Spanish or Portuguese, had I not known Spanish before.

Hema: This is so interesting because, you know, the ABC island and Curacao in itself is such a small country, in comparison to the entire world. And there's these three islands and yours in particular, Curaçao, where there is this very unique language. 

Sheedia: There's a lot of different ways people see that, right? I celebrate it with my whole soul. I'm like, Papiamentu is the most beautiful thing ever. But there are people that say, Oh, it's unimportant because not a lot of people speak it. And to that I say, actually, there is enough people for it to be an official language. Right? And celebrating that versus looking at it from a very capitalistic point of view of, oh, how many people speak it? If not enough people speak it, then it's unimportant, or how much business can you do in Papiamentu? Like those type of thought patterns kill culture. You know, that is neocolonization. It's not colonization as in, coming with ships and taking over a country, but it is neocolonization of something that technically came because colonization exists, right?

Like, if those people were not kidnapped from the African coast and brought here, there will never be any Papiamentu. 

Hema: If none of the history that we talked about in a previous episode, if none of those things happened, this language would not exist. So if, if the Spanish didn’t arrive, if the Dutch didn’t take over

Sheedia: No. 

Hema:  if they didn't start the Transatlantic Slave Trade, this language would not be.

Sheedia: No. It won't need to exist, right? And it's still a very young language, too, right? It wasn't until the the 1980s that it became a language that was taught in school, but it was taught in school before it became an official language in 2007. So, it's not that long ago that that people didn't speak it or write it, right?

Like, I can write Papiamentu and sometimes I still doubt, should I write it this way or should I write it that way? But my mom did not get any Papiamentu in school. And she can't really write it. I mean, she's learning, but she's never learned in school as a child.

Hema: What language then, prior to the 1980s, when you said it was officially starting to be taught in schools, what languages were spoken in the schools?

Sheedia: Dutch. And Papiamentu was not allowed to be spoken. We will be punished and sometimes beaten for speaking Papiamentu.

Hema: Why would that be? 

Sheedia: The colonization of it all, you know, because and that's the thing about it is we can say oh Curaçao, we have certain we are our own country and all that stuff, but I say we're still very much colonized in the things that are ours are not celebrated or were not allowed to be celebrated. And so I think with every year, especially with every decade, you see that more of what is ours is celebrated. And I absolutely love that. 

Hema: So, prior to 1980, when it was officially taught in schools… 

Sheedia: 1986, I believe. Yeah.

Hema: Sorry, it was 86? 

Sheedia: Yes. 

Hema: Your mom, for example, was taught Dutch in school. And so, is Dutch her native language?

Sheedia: No. Papiamentu is. Because, so let me, let me tell you, this is also interesting, right? Everybody grows up in their home speaking Papiamentu. But when you go to school, you have to switch to Dutch. And it, this is also similar, because I was in Jamaica for a while, to, you know, people speak Patois everywhere, but then they go to school and then it's English.

But English is, at least a little bit closer to Patois, even though I will not consider them the same language at all. I hate it when people do that. But, so it's a similar thing, but Dutch and Papiamentu are so different. And that's not only my mom's experience, it's also my experience, right?

So, I grow up speaking Papiamentu. I go to school, we start learning Dutch. And, in third grade of elementary, for me, so it was around when I was seven, eight years old, we started getting our first lessons in Papiamentu. So that's like the basics of Papiamentu. And then, as I was growing, it was developing, right?

So I ended up passing my, my exams in high school at a lower level than the, the level of high school that I finished. Versus my siblings that are five to seven years younger than me, they passed it at a higher level than me. And then, the year that I ended high school is the year that Papiamentu became an official language and became something that's taught from the beginning of school.

Hema: So, everybody speaks the language. And, and going back to 

Sheedia: Yeah. 

Hema: the example of your mom, she's been speaking it her entire life, but it was forbidden in school.

Sheedia: Yes. So, as soon as you step out of school, you're back to Papiamentu. While you're in those buildings, you're Dutch. But for me, I was never forbidden to speak Papiamentu in school. So that in itself, you see that generational change.

Hema: Right. What do you think, you think caused that change from it being forbidden in schools to it being accepted?

Sheedia: People waking up because it, it really holds you back when you can't study in your own language. When you start, there's a difference between learning Papiamentu from English, where I say this is an apple and this is apel in Papiamentu. If I say this is an apple and I'm saying any word in English and I'm just saying apel, apel, apel, you're just like, huh?

So it holds you back because there's no similarities. In addition, we learn then other languages from Dutch. So I learned Spanish from Dutch, even though we all know a little bit of Spanish even before we learned it in school, and I remember I had to learn these words from Dutch to Spanish just like Spanish class in high school. And some of those words I didn't know them in in Dutch. So I don't know what it means in Dutch and I have to learn it what it means in Spanish. Because things like weather and cultural aspects of either the Netherlands or Spain, we don't have them here. And sometimes we don't even have anything to compare them with. So that really holds people back because you struggle. You're, you're set up to fail.

Hema: You said that English is spoken.

Sheedia: Mmm hmm. 

Hema: Is it also spoken in schools in your mom's time and now?

Sheedia: Not as much. I don't know for sure, for sure. I think my mom probably got a few classes in English at some point, but for us, nowadays, in for me it was when I was in 5th grade. So that would be 11 ish in how old I am. I started getting English in school. 

Once English and Spanish they're added to the curriculum at the same time, you have to keep taking it until you finish high school.

Hema: I'm trying to wrap my head around this. So I grew up in Canada. Right? English is the language. And then starting in grade three was when we started taking French classes.

And it would be one class a week and you could continue on.

Sheedia: Yeah. 

Hema: But you're telling me that you spoke Papiamentu as your language, that's your original language.

Sheedia: Mm hmm. 

Hema: lAnd then you had to learn Dutch, Spanish, and English as a child. 

Sheedia: Yes. Yes. It's so normal to us. And, and to me, I've, as I travelled, I realized how not normal that is, and how intelligent Curaçaoans are because languages unlocks things within your brain. And most Curaçaoans are just unaware of it. It's normal. It's not just like what we talked about is just like the school curriculum of things, right?

But most of our entertainment, it's either in Spanish and or English. Now you can get stuff in Dutch, especially with the internet and stuff. But growing up, everybody basically had Venezuelan TV shows because you could get that with a basic antenna, um, because they're so close by again. And then, if you had a little bit more money, you could get cable.

Or, what my dad did was order VHS tapes from the States. Which was, you know, nowadays you can do that through the internet. That was a huge deal back then. So, for me, I grew I grew up in a very, high control Christian environment, so I wasn't allowed to watch the Venezuelan stuff because there was a lot of soaps and telenovelas and kissing and stuff like that.

So, um, I got to watch my little Christian VHS tapes in English, and so I grew up with more English than Spanish, but it's everywhere. Like, you hear English and Spanish a lot.

Hema: If I were to come to Curaçao you know, you see street signs, you see signs on stores, what language would it be in?

Sheedia: Papiamentu and Papiamentu, Dutch and English. The street signs are in Papiamentu and Dutch. But sometimes they're in English. Stores usually have English names. Sometimes Papiamentu. It's all over the place. Like it's wild. 

Hema: It is just so interesting to me because Curaçao, again in the grand scheme of the world, is such a small place for such a unique situation with languages.

Sheedia: Yeah. Yeah. And we connect the Caribbean. You know, that's something that most people are unaware. I didn't even notice that until this year. Besides the Creole languages, it's just French that we don't speak here when it comes to like the colonized Caribbean languages. So, that's in itself is very interesting.

Hema: You know, I love to, when we’re talking on this podcast, define some terms that people listening may not understand. And you just said Creole. And this is one that I think, depending on where you're from in the world, that word might mean something different. Can you tell me what it means in the context that you were speaking?

Sheedia: So Creole means that a new thing that was created, right? And for Papiamentu is a Creole language because it came, it was created in Curaçao, but it's not indigenous to Curaçao. And so that's why it's a Creole language, but there is another term for that, which is the lingua franca, which I mentioned earlier, when it comes to languages.

But everything that is like our food is Creole food, the way that I mentioned it. The people here are Creole people because we're not indigenous, um, Caquetios or Arawaks or anything like that, but we created a new indigenous environment, which is like this mixture of people that we have now.

Hema: So if, if we think about somebody of Dutch origin who can trace their ancestry back but they were born in Curaçao… 

Sheedia: Yes. Criollo is what we say.

Hema: So maybe there's origins elsewhere, but it was born on the island whether it's the language, the food, it would be considered Creole because it is new and created in Curaçao.

Sheedia: Yes, yes. 

Hema: Or anywhere else in the Caribbean, because that term applies to many places in the Caribbean.

Sheedia: Yes. Another interesting thing that I would like to say too, and this is something that I'm passionate about, is that Papiamentu and Haitian Creole are the only official Creole languages in the Caribbean, even though they're so many of them spoken and there's so many different, dialects even of English, but those are the only two and that's why I think Papiamentu is so important but I also think that's also sad because there are other, as I said, I have a very strong connection with Jamaican Patois and I'm like that should just be a language, an official taught in school, all of that. 

Hema: Earlie you said it was 2007 that Papiamentu became an official language of Curaçao. How did that transpire?

Sheedia: I think in the early 2000s there was this , that's still going on really, of understanding who we are. In 2004, we voted for what position we wanted in the Dutch Kingdom. So either we would stay as the Netherlands Antilles, independence, become a province of the Netherlands, or what we decided, which is autonomous in the Dutch Kingdom.

And all of that sparked a lot of conversation. Like, I was in high school during that time, and we would skip class to have full on debates on the importance of Papiamentu, and we would have full on debates on like which one of those four choices we had to, choose in the referendum, the polls, right?

And we were kids. So, these people that were kids back then, or teenagers, like me, we have this ingrained in us, and this passion of no, we don't want to be beaten for speaking our own language. This is what is us. Accept, take it or leave it, you know?

Hema: The reason I asked that question is because you were saying, for example, Patois in Jamaica is not an official language, even though it is so widely spoken and everybody knows about it.

Sheedia: Mhm. 

Hema: And that is the same in many different Caribbean countries.

Sheedia: Yes. 

Hema: I was just curious of how you guys went from, it is a language spoken by everybody to making it official because it's, it is a process and there is, there is, people have to fight for it.

Sheedia: Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like now the fight is in, my generation's hands, right? When we were having those discussions, yeah, we were very passionate about it, but we were kids. So it was the generation before us that made certain decisions to get us to this point. Now it's up to us to continue fighting for it or standing up for it.

Hema: Yeah. I realize I may have made it sound like people in Jamaica or other countries are not fighting for their language. And we're not, I'm not saying that that's the case.

Sheedia: No, no, no.

Hema: It's an example of, of one language that is so widely spoken and known, but not official. And as you said, the only other official Creole language is in Haiti.

Sheedia: Yes, yes, and I started learning some of it. I know a little bit of French, because I also got French in high school, but that was like an extra thing.

And it's so beautiful just like seeing the similarities, it's so phonetically written, the Haitian Creole compared to Papiamentu. It's been like a month or two that I started doing it, and I haven't been really focusing on it. But there is this groundedness that you get when you speak the language that is so close to your heart.

And I wouldn't say it's the Indigenous language, again, it's the Creole language, but Creole for 300 plus years is very close to Indigenous, you know? 

Hema: Yeah. And the fact that it's become an official language means that it's not at risk of getting lost.

Sheedia: Yes, and that's beautiful. 

Hema: Absolutely. There, there is the chance, I think in other places, I was talking to someone from Puerto Rico and she was saying that, there is so much English US influence

Sheedia: Mm hmm. 

Hema: that most people are speaking Spanglish and not full Spanish. And that is just one little example of the language getting changed, mixed, and potentially lost.

Sheedia: Yes. And that is, it's still a little bit of threat, of a threat here. I'm, I've dedicated this year specifically to use as much Papiamentu as possible, because even when we speak other languages here, because everybody knows all the languages, we just mix it all. Like, if you can't think of something, you use another, a word in another language.

And so I've been, I'm starting to become very conscious of what are those words that I want to use? And since it's now on Google Translate too, sometimes I'm just like Google translating, what is that word again? And making sure that I use that versus trying to steal from another language.

Hema: And, speaking about the language not getting lost, you actually have a course.

Sheedia: Yes. 

Hema: To teach people how to learn to speak Papiamentu. 

Sheedia: Yes. It is called the Papiamentu Language Course. If you go to learn. PapiamentuCourse. com. And you can purchase it if you want. You get lifetime access to it. And you can learn. It's starting from the basics. So it's not for people that are very advanced.

We're constantly adding to it to make it more advanced. But if you're just like, you want to learn a Creole language, and Papiamentu is intriguing you, go for it.

Hema: And that’s available online, anybody, anywhere in the world can purchase it and learn the language. And then you do have some videos or at least one that I can remember that I saw on your YouTube channel that's just open for a very quick, here are a few words to learn in Papiamentu.

Sheedia: Yes, I have three. One, two is, uh, How to Speak Papiamentu Part 1 and Part 2. And then I have one on the word dushi, which is the most widely used word in Papiamentu, but that's an animated video, even though you hear my voice.

Hema: Well, okay, so it's the most widely 

Sheedia: Used 

Hema: used word? What does it mean? 

Sheedia: It means everything good. That's why. So it means good, good looking, sweet, sweetheart, and delicious. So you're looking dushi. We're having a dushi time. 

Hema: Interesting. I’m going to link those 3 in the show notes if you want to go look 

Sheedia: Okay great. 

Hema: at those three episodes to see what we're talking about. And I'm going to go back and watch them because it's been a, a few weeks since I was researching this episode. 

This has been so interesting and informative and it's kind of taken little turns here and there in understanding while that unofficially the official language, because it's been spoken for so long and by so many people 

Sheedia: Mm hmm. 

Hema: that it's only in 2007 that became the official language, and that to me is fascinating. 

Sheedia: Yeah. And you're, it's never too late, you know?

Hema: It is never too late, and so if I were to come to Curaçao, and I speak English, and I maybe, take the course and I learn a little bit, I would be fine getting around because, English is also widely spoken.

Sheedia: Yes, yes. And some people are, some people are more comfortable speaking English than others, but they'll always find a way to tell you, to give you what you need.

Hema: What is the language you are most comfortable speaking?

Sheedia: Sadly, English.

Hema: It’s an honest answer.

Sheedia: Just because, yeah, but it's becoming more comfortable in Papiamentu. The reason why I say English is because I know more subjects in English. So I know how to talk about, my profession and stuff like that in English versus in Papiamentu, it's more of an everyday thing. But I'm really, really making it a point to be able to have all sorts of conversations in Papiamentu.

 Even though, even with English, like when we were talking about food, I struggle with some words because I don't know them, or I've never said them in English before. So, yeah, it's, it's a mix. But I would say I'm most confident always being able to defend myself and express myself in English. 

Hema: Before we wrap, I do want to ask you about your podcast because you mentioned it at the very beginning and it piqued my interest. And we're not going to spend a lot of time on it, but what's the name of your podcast? 

Sheedia: The Dungeon. 

Hema: And then the topic you said was really talking about taboo topics.

Sheedia: Mm hmm. 

Hema: Tell me about that. 

Sheedia: It's a, it's a spicy podcast and not in the sexual way always, but we say it as it is. And we, we cover things like religion and cults and, sexual things and gender equalities that we see in the Caribbean, being abandoned by family members because of your LBGTQIA status. What it means to be authentic and being authentic in a Caribbean culture that is very, has very much a group mentality of this is how it should be in so many ways.

So those are some of the topics off the top of my head, that we've covered. The next season is gonna come out next year. And what I can say is that it's gonna be heavily focused on migration. But it's gonna cover a bunch of topics, but if everything goes well, that's gonna be the topic. I'm planning something cool about that.

Hema: I can't wait to listen.  I'm going to link to your website and your podcast and some of the other things that we've talked about, but today learning about the language and Papiamentu was so enlightening and I appreciate you sharing more of your culture with us today.

Sheedia: Thank you. It's a pleasure. And thank you so much for having me.