The Repair Campaign: Caribbean Reparations Explained with Brian Royes

Understanding Reparations and Caribbean Justice with Brian Royce, Campaign Manager for The Repair Campaign

Hema is joined by Brian Royes, Campaign Manager for The Repair Campaign, an organization that amplifies for the call for former colonial powers to acknowledge their role in the transatlantic trafficking of enslaved Africans.

They delve into CARICOM's 10-point plan for reparations and reparatory justice, emphasizing the importance of an apology and accountability from those who benefitted from chattel slavery, the long-term socioeconomic and cultural impacts still being felt today, and the critical role of education on the topic. Brian passionately shares the necessity for reparations to foster true development and equity in the Caribbean. 

The Repair Campaign is an advocacy organisation supporting the Caribbean's reparatory justice movement guided by CARICOM's Ten-Point Plan for Reparatory Justice. We call on the UK and other European governments, institutions and individuals who perpetrated and benefited from chattel slavery and its legacy to apologise for these atrocities and commit to repair. We ask all who stand with this call to show their support by signing in solidarity at repaircampaign.org/sign. 

Instagram 

Facebook 

TikTok 

Connect with Brian

Instagram 

YouTube 

Resources

CARICOM Reparations Commission 

CARICOM 10 Point Plan for Reparatory Justice 

Mapping the Legacy of Slavery in London’s Docklands 

Heirs of Slavery 

William Gladstone’s Family apologises for role in slave trade  

Olaudah Equiano: Writer & Abolitionist

Episodes referenced

Slave Voyages: Documenting the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade with Dr. Gregory O’Malley and Dr. Nafees M. Khan 

Transcript

Brian:  If you actually look at the 10 point plan that CARICOM has, monetary compensation and debt cancellation is actually number 10. Number one is actually a call for an apology because as part of this issue of repair and justice, we need to have those who perpetrated these harms and who continue to benefit from their ongoing legacies, actually come to the table and meet us with some degree of basic human dignity, and actually own up for, and take accountability for the actions done by the government, the institutions themselves that would have been in this business of trading people.

[music]

Hema: Hi Brian. Thanks so much for joining me today on The Moreish Podcast.

Brian: Hey Hema, it's, it's really, it's such a, a pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me.

Hema: We are diving into a topic today that can be a little polarizing, and that's the conversation around reparations. But before we get there, can you introduce yourself?

Brian: Yeah, absolutely. So, my name is Brian Royes. I'm a Jamaican, born and raised, singer songwriter, studied psychology and now ardent reparations activist and advocate on behalf of The Repair Campaign. I am the Campaign Manager with The Repair Campaign, and we are an organization that is supporting the advocacy and the awareness-raising efforts around what does reparatory justice reparations mean? Why is it important in this present day context, while also supporting the actual delivery of reparations by working with reparations committees in each of the 15 CARICOM member states, to create socio-economic reparatory justice plans that actually go so far as to suggest what reparations can look like in each of these countries based on research. So that's a nutshell and I'm happy to go into any of those stuff with you.

Hema: Yeah, let's break this down. You kind of got into it, but if you were to define reparations, what, what is that?

Brian: Yeah, there's a whole lot of misconceptions around this word reparations and a lot of emotions and rightfully so. But in its simplest sense, reparation, to me, is the act of making right a wrong. So in this is situated in the context of in the Caribbean, um, Caribbean countries have been devastated by over 350 years of chattel slavery, colonial exploitation, Indigenous genocide, which has left several legacies that we continue as Caribbean people to feel the effects of to this day.

And so reparation is not just about run me my money, how much is, how much money is gonna hit my bank account, which is a, a popular misconception, but it's about the restitution and the repair of some of the ongoing ways that these legacies still show up in our lives. CARICOM has a really thorough 10 point plan for what reparations and reparatory justice should look like in the context of this history.

And we can get into some of those, those 10 points, but if you haven't heard of it, or the listeners haven't heard of it, definitely go check out CARICOM's 10 Point Plan because it really explains why a repair is important given this history, and what it can actually look like and how it can actually take shape.

Hema: Reparations, when we talk about that in general, could apply to many places around the world. But this conversation today and The Repair Campaign focuses on the Caribbean. And so that's where we're focusing our conversation today.

Brian: That's right.

Hema: The Repair Campaign, tell me about that. Who started it and why?

Brian: Yeah, so The Repair Campaign was founded by Denis O'Brien, who is an Irish businessman who has been working in the Caribbean for almost 30 years. And that's not to say that the reparations movement was, was founded at this moment. The actual call for justice and reparation has existed for decades, if not centuries.

If you, if you actually want to trace this back to the moments at abolition and before abolition, when writers like Equiano, um, and other abolitionists were really pushing for repair from that moment of resistance and and abolition. But The Repair Campaign itself was founded to support these existing calls for reparatory justice.

Having been in a state of listening and, and consulting with members of civil society, the team, there was a team of rapporteurs that travelled across the Caribbean in 2022 and 2023 as well, listening to what communities were asking for and what repair meant to communities in each of the 15 CARICOM countries.

And out of that, and at the advice and guidance of the CARICOM Reparations Commission, which is the central body that is really championing this cause, we were saying that one of the ways that we can support this, this effort is through this educational component and awareness raising, as well as through some of the research that I mentioned before.

Hema: You, you said that there's some misconceptions around what reparations might mean, and it could mean money, but there are other things that it could mean. And on the website, there are things like an apology. Let's talk about what that whole world of reparations could look like.

Brian: All right, let's go there. Look, money is important. Don't get me wrong, money is absolutely central because ultimately money is just like social energy, right? It's, it's our ability to make change. So, monetary compensation can include actual compensation for the crimes against humanity for which there has been no justice, right?

And that's a really a part of reparation efforts that we see globally. Actual compensation for harms done and wrongdoing. And this is arguably one of the greatest crimes against humanity the world has ever seen. So there's monetary compensation involved for that, and also the idea of debt cancellation, as well as investment into other repair reparatory initiatives, that could take a future-oriented approach, right?

So those are some of the ways that money does come into the compensation. But if you actually look at the 10 point plan that CARICOM has, monetary compensation and debt cancellation is actually number 10. It's all the way at the bottom. I think that's interesting. Number one is actually a call for an apology because as part of this issue of repair and justice, we need to have those who perpetrated these harms and who continue to benefit from their ongoing legacies, actually come to the table and meet us with some degree of basic human dignity, right, and actually own up for, and take accountability for the actions done by the government. You know, the, the institutions themselves that would have been in this business of trading people. We don't use the word slave trade anymore because that's problematic, but trafficking human beings, insuring them as though they were property, that's what this idea of chattel slavery is all about.

As well as some of the families who directly owned, we also don't use that terminology anymore, but who directly profited from the enslavement of these people. Uh, and that wealth continues to compound in the UK, in other European colonial centres of power, and that apology is all about having those who acknowledge that they benefited from this history to come to the table and say we are sorry. We take accountability. Obviously it's not themselves that perpetrated these harms, but it's this this acknowledgement that they have benefited from systems and a long heritage where their ancestors would've perpetrated these harms. And it's, it's still important that they take accountability for the sake of basic human dignity.

So we, that's, that's point number one, apology. Point number 10 all the way down there is monetary compensation and debt cancellation. And if we like to fill in the blanks, I mean this conversation could go in so many different ways. This could be a whole 10 episode podcast, right? But some of the other points in there, and I'm not going in order, include support for Indigenous communities because Indigenous communities were the first ones impacted by this colonial exploitative practice. Repatriation, not only of artifacts that are sitting in museums and European spaces, but also repatriation of people to Africa. Look how long Rastafari has been calling for repatriation.

There is also, number four, actually let's not quote me on the list here. I'm not actually reading it, but number four includes things like cultural restitution and rehabilitation. Investment into the cultural aspect, which was systematically destroyed during chattel slavery.

There's a call for repairing the public health crisis that we experience in the Caribbean. The idea that Caribbean people suffer from the highest rates of non-communicable diseases like hypertension and diabetes globally. Barbados is called the amputation capital of the world because of the impact of diabetes in Barbados, and this, again, is a direct legacy of the diets high in sugar and salt that were fed to enslaved populations for generations. Uh, after number five, there is support for illiteracy eradication. Considering that Jamaica, when it obtained independence, was left with like 31 prisons and only three schools. And those three schools were meant to cater to the European elite class that was living in Jamaica, not the actual people themselves.

And this educational thing also calls for decolonial education instead of systems that serve Eurocentric values. There's also a call for deeper connections to Africa. So repairing that, that Caribbean African link and that heritage, which was again, systematically stripped.

There are calls for psychological rehabilitation considering the generational trauma that has been passed down.

Hema:  You listed off a bunch of things, and I wanna go back to a few of the things that you talked about. First and foremost, which I think is really important, is language. And you said, we don't talk about slave trade, we don't talk about people being slaves, and the language has changed in how we refer to what happened and, and the people. 

Brian: Language is so important. Language shapes our reality. Language shapes our perception of reality. One of the ways that enslaved ancestors were subjugated was through the use of language, and through the erasure of certain languages. So I think it's particularly important that in, in paying homage, and, and venerating all of our enslaved ancestors and those who resisted at every step of the way that we don't consider them slaves. Like the idea that someone is born a slave and your identity is a slave is so reductive, and it comes from the same mentality that was used to suppress these people. That's actually what was at the root of chattel slavery, the word chattel slavery is also important in as we talk about language because it differentiates this idea that, oh, slavery was everywhere. Everybody had slaves in every society.

And while the act of human subjugation is obviously wrong and, and was practiced in other societies, it's important to know that chattel slavery was a unique form of dehumanization, never before seen. It was invented during this period of African chattel slavery.

The idea of chattel is this idea that one, that a person can be property to be bought and owned and sold, and that the the, the children born of this, this property system were by default also property in perpetuity forever and ever and ever. That has never before been seen. When you look at like Roman slavery for example.

And I think that's another instance where language is super critical in understanding, first of all how chattel slavery was different, and also in looking at the, the humanity of these, these people in not calling them slaves, but rather calling them the enslaved, people, enslaved Africans.

I'd go so far as to say even the word slave owner or slave master. Let's unpack that. Instead what we use the language that is recommended now is like enslaver, because what that does is it puts the onus of this and, and the accountability and responsibility of this act of enslavement on the people who enslaved, instead of positioning them as the master who should be revered, if you know what I mean.

Hema: I did an episode with a couple of people from the Operational Committee of Slave Voyages, so

Brian: Yeah.

Hema: they have a, a website which documents and shows a lot of the movement of people. And one of the things that came out in that conversation was, the reason we have so many records of the forced movement of people is because they were documented as cargo, which really just speaks to what you were just talking about. They weren't people, they were things to be documented, which gives us the records that we have today.

Brian: Yeah. As I find that so interesting and appalling, this idea that when we actually start seeing more detailed records of these human lives and what they were like and what they were doing, really only started showing up in the record when they said, oh wait, we're actually gaining from our capital here and we need to document our capital, right?

And so I think that's just absolutely insane. First of all, that I don't think that needs to be said, but, this idea, and I listened to that episode and it was a fantastic episode too, and it sorts of the research that they're doing, but I think it's interesting, even when you look at the names that we see recorded here, when you look at how some of the names included it, they're very European or, or they're very surface level descriptors. And every so often you'll see like a African-inspired name. And that's also a legacy of how, again, using language and naming systems was used to erase identities and cultures and spiritualities in order to subjugate, uh, and, and make a population more susceptible to enslavement really.

Hema: I opened this conversation with you saying that the topic of reparations can be polarizing. And you know, this is really one of the reasons why I wanted to have this conversation with you is to hopefully shed some light on the conversation and that it's not just about money, and the reasons why organizations like The Repair Campaign exist. Because, for example, when I put out that, or published that episode with the two academics from Slave Voyages, a couple of the conversations that came up was, well, the British taxpayers had to compensate the people of British origin who were no longer allowed to have enslaved people, and they were monetarily compensated.

And so the, the argument that came back to me was the British taxpayers already paid this money. Why are reparations even a thing? And my conversation, my comment back was, who got that money? Let's talk about that. Who? Who received compensation and monetary compensation for the loss of being able to enslave people?

Brian: I think that's one of the biggest travesties in human history. When you consider you're, you're absolutely right. So at the moment of passing the 1833 Slavery Abolition Act, um, actually the majority of the Slavery Abolition Act, according to some of the research I've done, was dedicated to not the actual abolition and freedom aspect of things, but how the compensation to those who again, quote, air quotes owned these enslaved people, were gonna be compensated for their loss of, again, air quotes, property. That's crazy that they, these people were spending so much time, and the pages, and pages and pages was dedicated okay, well if I'm losing property, how am I gonna get compensated?

So, to answer your question. Why are we still talking about reparations when reparations have already been paid? Is that it was paid to the wrong people. Simply put. You, you compensated the wrong people. And the double injustice behind all this that people often fail to account for is not only did they receive compensation for their loss of property, this is in addition to the wealth that they would've generated intergenerationally for over, for over centuries, 350 years of this. So think of the, in one year alone in London, I, I don't, I need to actually look back at the source, but it was like 1790something. I was, I saw this in the London Museum, Docklands tour, their exhibits on sugar and slavery.

In one year, they would've extracted the modern day equivalent of 100 billion pounds. In one year. Imagine how that compounds over generations. Wealth breeds more wealth, when you invest it into things like the industrial revolution. And so your capital is growing for centuries, first of all. Second of all, when abolition occurred it did not actually take effect immediately. There was a period of apprenticeship where they said, oh wait, these enslaved Africans don't know how to be free, that we need to, we need to socialize 'em in terms of how, so there was a, a six year period of apprenticeship where they still worked under the similar, same awful conditions, same abusive conditions.

They were now paid, but like barely anything. And the, there are estimates that would account for the actual wealth or the value of that apprenticeship period that would've doubly enriched the enslavers at that point. So they're still gaining money off of the free wealth and the free generation of wealth during that period.

Now, it, it only actually went for about four years. So 1838 now is when that would've ended. At which point now, point number three, triply getting a third layer of compensation on top of what you've generated over centuries, the apprenticeship value, and then now you're getting extra compensation for your loss of property.

Meanwhile, the people who would've endured this horrendous treatment for generations have gotten nothing, not even an apology to this day. And to make matters worse, descendants. People are, people are always like, this is ancient history. Why don't we just move on? People don't recognize that it's not ancient history.

In 2015. 2015 was the year in which the British government finished repaying the loan that it took out to compensate these former enslavers. The sum was so large that they took, they had to take out a loan. By the time the compensation of 20 million pounds to the enslavers was 40% of their GDP. 40% of Britain's GDP was was taken out as a loan to compensate these people, and it took them until 2015, a hundred and how many years to pay that off.

So when people, first of all are like, this is ancient history, no it's not. Because living descendants of enslaved people would've contributed through their taxes to compensating the enslavers. What? That like, people need to know about this. 

And my last point to that, is that, uh, the legacies of these issues are still ongoing. So to say that this is ancient history, how we just move on. The, the fact is that Caribbean countries, descendants of enslaved people living in global Africa still face the repercussions of these issues. Justice has never been served, and that's why repair is urgent.

Hema: Let's talk about some of these repercussions that still exist.

Brian: Oh boy. The best place to start again would be the CARICOM 10 point plan. As a matter of fact, one thing that you know, having listened to your podcast and, and I love how you make this link between heritage and food, let's talk about food. Let's talk about the healthcare crisis, which is point number five in the CARICOM's ten point plan.

The idea that diabetes and hypertension are rampant in the Caribbean, people are like, what does that have to do with slavery? Consider that, what was the main profitable good that was exploited during the Caribbean's period of colonialism. Sugarcane, right? Sugar was something that was a high value product.

And, as such, the diets that were fed to enslaved populations, not to say that they're eating all the sugar cane, but was, was very unhealthy, and also influenced by this sugar revolution that was taking place at the time. When we consider hypertension, which is again linked to diets high in salt, we consider that the, the diets that were fed to enslaved populations were like the scraps. And then you think of how in Jamaica, I know where I'm from, people consider oxtail a delicacy or pigs tail in, in your red pea soup, right? Or chicken foot, right? These are the scraps that would've been fed to like the, the non-valuable pieces of meat that would've been fed, which have now filtered down into just our culture and our diets, and how it contributes to ongoing issues of ill health, right?

And that's one of the many legacies that is in need of some reparative support. And of course, there are things that we can do in our own capacities to curb some of these rates of NCDs. But it's not just the internal repair. There is external repair that we need to demand in terms of supporting these legacies.

I also think it's just interesting that, like, Jamaica's national dish, ackee and saltfish, we don't actually have saltfish in Jamaica. Saltfish is imported from overseas. And consider, again, salt fish. It's just in our nature to feed ourselves on these high salt foods.

And if you just ask any Jamaican person, do you have a auntie or uncle that has diabetes or hypertension, I guarantee you somebody, they're gonna be like, oh yeah, uncle so and so, or my mother has, right, it's prevalent and it's linked to this legacy.

Hema: A lot of the saltfish comes from Canada, the east coast of Canada, which is where I'm from. Saltfish and even ackee was brought over to

Brian: Yeah,

Hema: Jamaica from

Brian: that's right.

Hema: West Africa.

When we talk about the repercussions, when we talk about some of these polarizing conversations, I've had conversations with people about the return of artifacts, and this is one of the things that you mentioned that's in that list. And the conversation often goes like, I talk about the return of artifacts and giving things back to people and putting them back where they belong, and very often I get the return conversation, well, don't you think England, Spain, whatever European country has the ability to take better care of these artifacts, and having in London means many more people will get to see these artifacts. 

And I try not to get into arguments with people, but sometimes I try to help them understand that these pieces of history should go back to the places of origin where these pieces and artifacts came from. But I feel like a lot of people don't seem to be able to wrap their heads around that.

Brian: Unfortunately, I just think that the irony is, is so, so funny there that we can't, that the, the countries that created these artifacts don't have the capacity to take care of them. I think is, is is silly. 

But think of also the fact that, Caribbean researchers who, who desire access to information about their own histories and legacies, can't access that information because it's inaccessible. It's it's hidden in archives that they don't have the physical access to, or oftentimes the financial access to.

So, I mean, even beyond the artifacts, 'cause that's a huge area in itself, but just it, it begs the question as to how these spaces of memory and institutions of pre preserving culture and heritage exclude the people who they purport to be documenting, essentially.

And so I think that that also has to be, there's a huge push in spaces like in the university spaces, both in the Caribbean and the UK, for decolonizing the archives, allowing greater access to information about people that is just sealed off behind closed doors.

Um, and recently there have been some successful repatriation efforts. For example, the University of Glasgow has begun championing that through their relationship with the University of the West Indies, and has begun the process of repatriating certain artifacts. For example, I remember there was like a, a biological specimen, it was a lizard, but it was preserved and it was from, it was endemic to Jamaica and it was taken over there and people have asked me, why do we care about that sort of a thing?

The idea is that it opens up channels and, institutional frameworks for the repatriation of other more significant,and ongoing pieces of culture.

The Benin Bronzes are a popular thing which are housed in the British Museum and that I think it's, it's ridiculous to insinuate that we can't return some of these artifacts because you, you can't take care of them, people who created them, and have a, an actual ownership claim on some of these items.

Hema: I think when, when people say, oh, well, Jamaica or Trinidad or Guyana doesn't have the facilities to properly care for and house these artifacts, but that's not even the crux of the conversation. It's that these things were stolen. 

Brian: Yeah, and it's, I mean, it's part of the call for reparation includes aspects to deal with this cultural memory. So memorialization is often brought up here, and that includes the creation of institutions like museums that could house some of these artifacts. And so that's something that is hopefully gonna be included in this idea of what these countries are looking for in terms of reparation to preserve again, that point number four, the cultural heritage and that that restitution of cultural memory, ancestral memory, and again, links to Africa.

Hema: I wanna go back to this monetary, financial conversation because you talked about it before, it comes up in many discussions with guests, is that there are families, there are companies who built their wealth, who continue to operate today based off of the people that they enslaved, and that wealth continues today.

Brian: Yeah. And so, when we look at some of these institutions, I recently went on a, a walking Black history tour through London, and they told us a story of Lloyd's Bank, Lloyd's Register, Barclays Bank, Greene King, which is like this beer company, and pretty much just anyone who really garnered their wealth during that, that time had more than likely had some link to enslavement, whether they actually again, air quotes owned enslaved people, or they benefitted in some other way by insuring the ships that would've trafficked these people. The, the nature of that transatlantic trafficking was so far reaching at the time that it's hard to imagine any aspect of society that was untouched by that wealth generation.

And some institutions have come forward and acknowledged that. And, and that that process is ongoing. But I fear that sometimes it is a bit too symbolic, in ways that could go much deeper and, and engage in a, in a much more sincere way. 

It's one thing to acknowledge this history, and it's even another thing to actually pledge some monetary donation, but the thing is that that could easily be treated as charity unless there is a sincere, again, apology or a sincere coming to the table to engage in dialogue with affected communities, and participates in a conversation that actually centres the needs and voices of some of these affected communities. In this conversation on reparatory justice, what do the people who are living with the ongoing legacies actually need and want to see when it comes to repair?

And there are institutions or there are families that have recently come forward that are associated with the, the Heirs to Enslavement project, and even in Guyana recently in 2023, the Gladstone family made a visit to Guyana and they, they publicly apologized, pledged a commitment to support the university.

And, you know, while that was divisive, at least they are doing the work of coming face to face and speaking with the, the people living in the actual communities that their forefathers would have profited from and exploited, and are committing to a meaningful dialogue.

And maybe the amount that they've pledged is not enough. That's a separate conversation. But again, the money is, is separate and apart from the sincerity. And what, what we are calling for is more of that sincerity in coming to the table, which is why The Repair Campaign is calling for an apology, as step number one in pursuit of repair for these legacies. 

Hema: A lot of what we talk about sometimes feels large and so high level. What would any of these 10 points mean for the average, everyday citizen in the Caribbean?

Brian: Oh man. Yeah, it would mean, it would mean a lot. I mean, I'm, I, I, I think about the idea that, let's take education again. That's another big one that comes up in all of the meetings that we've had with every single reparations committee that we've consulted and engaged with. It would mean that a kid growing up inthe Caribbean, pick a country, would not have to seek to study in the States or to go to school in the UK to receive a certain level of education, or have access to certain opportunities. That alone would revolutionize the quality of life and experience in these countries. It would, it would curb the brain drain that we're seeing, which again, is a huge issue.

And I think it's, it's a, it's a tough conversation, like you said, because it seems so large. How is this actually gonna impact me now, which we're in a, we're in a very instant gratification kind of a culture, so it's more education is needed to show that the, the benefit to Caribbean people is, is long term, it's intergenerational.

And it won't be solved overnight or bring some immediate relief right now, but if we take the perspective that we've, this reparatory justice conversation falls into a, a, a legacy and a lineage that spans hundreds of years. Chattel slavery took place for over 350 years. The, the time it took to actually get between abolition, uh, and to consider between abolition and independence, independence and now, we're still in a very early stage of, of seeking justice. 

I mean, look, this should have happened a long time ago, but there's an argument to be said that if this takes another several years or decades, hopefully it'll be quicker than that. It will at least be consistent with the history that has has taken us to this moment.

And so we really need to adopt this long-term intergenerational approach knowing that the repair that we are seeking must begin now. But will be an ongoing process that affects my children and their children, so that they'll actually be able to build on a foundation that is much more secure and built on justice and built on equity, which is an opportunity that our ancestors were systematically denied.

The education piece is, is one major thing, uh, but I think the education piece will also stem into the creation of our, of our consciousness amongst our Caribbean people, where we can now pursue the internal repair and that internal healing that is equally, if not more important in undoing some of the ways that this colonial extractavist policy has really brainwashed us in the sense that, when Marcus Garvey talks about emancipate yourself from mental slavery, that there's a lot of work that needs to be done through education and awareness in releasing these shackles of the of, of Eurocentric values and this, these colonial mindsets that still have our people, in a chokehold. And so that I think is another one of the immediate benefits to this conversation on repair that must be prioritized.

Hema: Brian, that is such a big conversation, such a… it feels daunting sometimes when you talk about that mental slavery and that Eurocentric mindset because there are a lot of people who live that way, who believe that way, who, who are descendants of enslaved people or descendants of indentured people, or whose ancestors lived through these really really fraught times. And they don't know why they think this way, but they do and it's hard to get through to them. 

I feel like that is going to be a big hurdle, not only for people outside of the Caribbean, but people inside. 

Brian: Yeah, it absolutely is. It comes down to, it comes down to, again, this educational piece, because what education does is it allows us to instill a sense of pride, Caribbean pride, African pride, in our heritage and, and sense of identity. 

As a psychology major myself, I'm very interested in this idea of how our behaviours actually stem from a sense of identity and how our identity is often shaped at very young ages, right? In these very formative ages. And that's where the education must begin. It's, it's great that universities are teaching about reparations, but the idea of teaching African history, Black history, Caribbean history, but not in a sense that, oh, this began with slavery and we were slaves, but rather teaching the, the empowering history of how the very first civilizations came out of Africa.

When you look at where were the, the world's first universities and great libraries and kings and queens and these advanced civilizations that we've been brainwashed to not think of as advanced, but who were actually designing architecture way ahead of its time.

Look at the pyramids. How do they do that? We still don't know. Living in, in harmony with nature, and with each other. Uh, and, and that Indigenous knowledge being something that we should be proud of, and that we should be proud of descending from these heritages and lineages that education needs to begin from a young age.

And I'm so glad that there are many people working in this, this field of bringing Afrocentric, Afro conscious, Black conscious education to young people at a very young age. Because what that will do is it will make this huge mountain of what seems insurmountable, feel a little bit more achievable, because instead of tackling this at this huge societal level, what we're doing now is we're taking it to the level of the individual, empowering children, young people from a very early age to take pride in themselves and this history and to question as they grow up and to critically analyze where these Eurocentric values that we see in the media and on TikTok and everywhere in our face, where they actually come from. And how do I now just out to the sake of loving myself, participate in our conversation that one by one dismantles, this colonial system.

Hema: You know, education, knowledge is so key in this conversation. You said it's not gonna happen overnight. None of this is gonna happen overnight. It's gonna take a lot of time, but there are a a number of resources on The Repair Campaign website

Brian: Mm-hmm.

Hema: that people can go and find information. If somebody is just starting, they're listening to this podcast, they're listening to you and they say, I wanna learn more, where do you suggest they go on the website?

Brian: That's a great question. So The Repair Campaign website is, uh, treasure trove, and it's, it's really an amalgamation of several resources that we pulled together. So if you head to our website and you are fresh into this conversation I would recommend you start with the the get informed page, which just starts by dealing with the surface of what are reparations, who is responsible? Um, are there other examples? What are some common arguments for and against reparations?

If you'd like to dive deeper, there's a tab called dive deeper, which is sort of our blog. And this includes perspectives of present-day activists, advocates, leaders in the movements who want to share their voices. And if that's you and you want to contribute an article, reach out, let's absolutely collaborate.

But that's, that will give you sort of a wider and deeper perspective as to some of the nuances. There's a news section as well in the news on our website, which shows you that every week, more and more things are happening when it comes to this conversation on reparation.So that really takes us to the present day. 

And for those who are in maybe a more academic space or really want to dive into other resources outside of the website, there's a learning hub on our website which allows you to a) read articles that others in this space, you know, academics, et cetera, have contributed to, there's a tab for you to explore other platforms that are linked to this, including the Slave Voyages website, and there's several other really good resources. And then there's also some recommendations for documentaries, movies, et cetera, that you can watch. And also organizations that you can connect with that are doing this work, both in the Caribbean and the UK, uh, and Europe. 

So I'd also say if there are, this is not an exhaustive list. There's so many people working in this space. So if you're listening and you'd like to also add your resource to this growing list, please feel free to reach out. We're happy to update these resources on a very regular basis.

Hema: The website is really, is a treasure trove of information and as easy as just getting started and dipping your toes into gaining a little bit of knowledge. I will link it down in the show notes so people could easily find it. And if there's any other resources that you would like to share, let me know and I will also link those.

Brian: Yeah.

Hema: I wanna ask a couple of, or talk about a couple of things before we wrap up. A couple of conversations that I've seen, that I've received on social media and I've seen other places is that slavery didn't actually exist, and that the Black people in the Caribbean are the Indigenous people, and and I've received a lot of, oh, well, these mythical slave ships, and it didn't actually happen, and the Black people are not of African descent, they're of Indigenous descent. What are your thoughts?

Brian: I, I mean, my, my initial thoughts are to sort of laugh because how, how, where, where is that? What, what historical records are those opinions based on, would be my first question without immediately just dismissing that statement as ridiculous on surface level. If I put my critical thinking hat on, and I wanna sincerely engage with people who are also seeking to sincerely engage, I would say again it's, it's not good enough to simply share an opinion that you saw in the comment sections at some random YouTube video. Give me your sources, show me the credible academics who are speaking to this, and let's have a conversation.

The, the British Museum, the, there are several museums across London, across the United States, across the Caribbean that document this history in great detail.

So I would say check the resources first. Start there. Yes, there are Indigenous communities that are in the Caribbean that still exist who's, if you wanna say phenotype, might look Black or look African. But this is, again, due to several generations of these communities mixing over time. Uh, and that doesn't diminish their claim as Indigenous communities, right? And so Indigenous communities still very much exist in the Caribbean. 

But for those who want to say that slavery didn't exist, I think if you sincerely maintain that argument, it is insulting and a little bit diminutive to just generations worth of, of people who have resisted and survived and overcome one of the, the most gruesome chapters in human existence.

And just because a wooden structure from several hundred years ago might have broken down and been destroyed, I'm referring to a slave ship, is not evidence to dismiss the several other hundreds of thousands of pieces of evidence and records that we have for its its existence.

Hema: It is one of the talking points and the pushbacks that I get, that I just, I can't even properly engage with people because every time I ask for sources, because I'm open, listen, I'm open, I don't know everything, and I wanna learn more. So if you have a source that tells me that your point is correct, I want to see it, and nobody has been able to direct me to a credible source. So.

Brian: I am open to a point, and after that point, I'm sorry.

Hema: There exists a conversation that terrible destruction, colonization, all of that happened. But we have built, in the Caribbean, a very new, beautiful culture, existence that, and this is something that I talk about on this podcast all the time, that has influences from all over the world. And we've built a, a beautiful culture. So why are we so upset about it? Why are we so upset, because we now have something great?

Brian: That's a, that's a nuanced question. I think that both can coexist. I think both must coexist. The joy and the celebration of our of our culture, is well, it wasn't something that we would've foreseen at the moment when the maafa, as it's as it's rightly called, which is the, the destruction and genocide of African people.

When that was being perpetrated, I don't think we were, we're saying, oh, but in 400 years time, we'll have created a whole new, vibrant, beautiful culture. No, that's right. But I think that we are very much within our right to celebrate our, our diversity and our colourful, vibrant, multi-ethnic culture as Caribbean people.

But at the same time, that doesn't diminish the call for justice for our enslaved ancestors, um, for the genocide that was perpetrated on the Indigenous people who lived here. And also a call for justice for the period of indentured servitude, which followed, right, which, which saw, Asian, which includes Indian, Chinese immigrants coming to toil under similar, but albeit not as gruesome circumstances, and they were paid and it was contractual anyway.

But I think that we must celebrate our, our diversity, but still come together in unity, in solidarity calling for justice and repair for these colonial harms because it actually benefits us all.

People often look at me as well, and they're like, why are you involved in, in reparations? Isn't this like a, a black and white thing? And I'm a, a proudly mixed Caribbean person, right? I have African heritage, I have Chinese heritage, I have European heritage. And that diversity which exists within me, in my opinion, is even more reason to participate in this conversation because everybody has a, has a stake in this.

And while we are advocating for justice for certain communities, which were disproportionately treated and brutalized, the kind of forward-looking repair that we are seeking serves to benefit the Caribbean and Caribbean people. So let's celebrate our diversity and let's all come together in solidarity in pursuing this, this justice and repair.

And the last thing I, I wanna say is if you've been listening, and gotten to this point, and you want to not only learn more, but you're asking yourself, how can I meaningfully get involved and take an action? There are three ways that you can do that. It's sort of a three-step process that I tell everyone.

The first is get educated, get informed, and the website that you mentioned is a great way, or Instagram is also a great platform where we share engaging videos. Step number one is educate yourself. Step number two is sign in solidarity. We've launched an online form, or even if you could call it a petition, calling for an apology and a commitment to repair from the colonial institutions, governments and individuals who benefited and perpetrated. For them to apologize and commit to repair. If you support reparations in that regard, sign in solidarity to to, to add your voice to the collective demand that is growing from the Caribbean and the diaspora and globally for this human rights issue. By doing that, you strengthen this demand for these former colonial bodies to come forward and sincerely participate. So sign and solidarity is number two.

Number three, tell somebody about it. Share that link to sign in solidarity with three friends. So we have each one teach one model. That's the only way this is gonna work, is if people who have this information share it, and bring more people into the movement.

So by those three simple steps, educate yourself, sign in, solidarity, and share it with a bunch of friends. We can build solidarity and unity for this super important movement, which as, eminent historian, professor Sir Hilary Beckels has said will be the greatest political tide of the 21st century. And I believe he's right because this draws from so many aspects of culture, and it's central to the change and, and the repair that we want to see across all societies.

Hema: Brian, we're gonna wrap in a couple of minutes, but you are very passionate about this. It, it comes through in our conversation. Why, personally, does this matter to you?

Brian: I came back to Jamaica after college wanting to make a difference and maybe my, my youthful naivete at the time was, a bit much. But it was this idea that I'm, I'm a proud Jamaican. I love my country. I love my people. I love the history and the, the energy that we bring to the world. Right? And I think for me, the pursuit of repair is fuelled by love, you know, it's not fuelled by revenge or hatred, or shame or guilt, or greed or the pursuit of money, right? For me, it's fuelled by love. It is, I think this is relatable to everybody in the Caribbean because everybody in the Caribbean love talk bout nowhere better than yard, right? Every like Jamaicans want to come back to Jamaica and see Jamaica thrive and put Jamaica on the map and Bajans love Barbados, right. Kittians will love, you know, everybody has a sense of Caribbean pride, and that to me is the motivation. I want to see the Caribbean thrive in, in, in the best way possible. And that was never given to us. You know, in history we're very young countries, right? Most of us have not been around for more than like 60, 63 years Jamaica.

We still have a lot more growing to do, but we were, we were established at a disadvantage. And I want to see this region thrive to the best of its ability, and that requires us to have an equitable chance at development and be built on foundations that were meant to serve us and not meant to exploit us, because that's the truth.

The Caribbean was just like an exploit exploitation ground for European colonial interests. And so this issue of repair is motivated by seeing this region thrive.

Hema: Outside of the work on The Repair Campaign, you have a whole other life as an artist. Can we, can you give me like a, a 30 second clip of

Brian: Yeah.

Hema: what else do you do?

Brian: I wear many hats. I, in addition to The Repair Campaign, I am a social media consultant. And so I do social media content creation for other, other brands. I also am a singer and songwriter, that has been my bread on butter from, I was single digits growing up writing songs, singing in church, uh.

And so as an artist as well, I make music. I I, I'm a singer songwriter. You can look me up at Bryan Royes, Bryan with a Y, R-O-Y-E-S, on all distributing platforms. And I have all intents and purposes of continuing to release more and more music because it just doesn't turn off. I think what fuels my soul is just creative self-expression, experiencing beauty in the world and then expressing it and connecting with people through that as a, as an avenue for tapping into like the emotions that bind us as people.

I also run a podcast on music and mindfulness because they're, they're interlinked, and I'm a, a wellness advocate as well, talking about how music, mindfulness and movement is like the formula for overall wellbeing. And so that very much connects with the whole idea of repair, as well. So it's all interconnected.

Hema: I will leave links to all of these things that we just talked about in the show notes so people can connect with The Repair Campaign, connect with you, learn a little bit more about some of the other work that you're doing. 

Brian, it's been a pleasure to have you on today, and as you said, this could be a much longer conversation. We don't have the time. We would be here for hours to dive into every aspect, but I think this is a really good look of what The Repair Campaign is doing, what reparations are all about, and why people should care. So thank you so much for joining me today on The Moreish Podcast.

Brian: Absolutely. And remember to sign in solidarity to be a part of this collective demand for repair and justice. Thank you so much for having me. It's really been a pleasure to be here. I love the podcast and the work that you're doing, and big up everybody who is a listener. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. 

[music]