Jewelry Making Tips with Metalsmith Society
Metalsmith Society is a community on Instagram where jewelers share jewelry making tips. On this podcast Metalsmith Society founder and author Corkie Bolton discusses tips from the Instagram page, provider deeper insights, answers questions, and highlights bonus content often shared by community members in the comment section.
Jewelry Making Tips with Metalsmith Society
How to Price Your Jewelry With Special Guest Jessica Rose
In today’s episode I will be discussing pricing your jewelry and common mistakes many jewelers make with special guest Jessica Rose.
Jessica Rose is the award winning founder of Jewellers Academy where she and her team have helped over a million people learn to make jewellery through in-person and online courses over the past two decades.
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Welcome to Jewelry Making Tips with Metalsmith Society, the podcast for anyone passionate about jewelry making. I'm your host, Corkie Bolton, and on this podcast I will discuss jewelry making tips, social media marketing, running a jewelry business, along with insights from special guests in the jewelry industry who share their expertise and stories. Whether you've been making jewelry for a while or just starting your journey, this podcast is your go-to resource. So grab your tools, dust off your workbench and join me. In today's episode, I will be discussing pricing your jewelry and common mistakes many jewelers make with my very special guest,J essica Rose. Jessica Rose is the award-winning founder of Jewelers Academy, where she and her team have helped over a million people learn to make jewelry through in-person and online courses over the past two decades. Jessica welcome.
Jessica Rose:Oh, thank you so much. It's a lovely intro. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to talk about this topic. It's one of my favorites.
Corkie Bolton:Yes, you're very passionate about it and we'll dive in a little bit later to about your own podcast. But could you just tell my audience, for those that haven't heard of you, they've been probably living under a rock I mean just kidding, but you know. Can you tell them a little bit about your background?
Jessica Rose:Yeah, of course, yeah. So I absolutely love jewelry and I love making jewelry and I love making money from doing the with making jewelry. That's kind of. Who does it? Yeah it, yeah, I mean it's great.
Jessica Rose:Um, so I started my jewelry business when I was 19. I was studying and I kind of saw my future ahead and I felt a little bleak about it and I was like I don't think I just want to work for someone else and do something that I'm not passionate about. So I left my job at the time and my uni course and I think everyone thought I was having a breakdown. But I saw someone selling jewelry at a fair and I was like, oh, my goodness, this is what I want to do. And it was one of those light bulb moments of like this is what I want to do.
Jessica Rose:But the problem is I didn't know how to make jewelry and I didn't know how to run a business, and I was 19. So I was like how do I begin? And that's where the journey started for me in terms of like going to lots of different courses, but I struggled to find the courses that I needed to learn what I was doing. So when I did eventually find it. I started teaching as well and people would say this is great, where can we learn the next level, like where can we do the next thing?
Jessica Rose:And eventually it turned into a jewellery school which was in London, was called London Jewellery School in Hatton Garden, where we trained over 40,000 jewellers across 13 years, which was so much fun. And then in COVID, the school had to unfortunately close down, but luckily we had started the Jewellers Academy, which was our online community and platform for our courses, and so everyone kind of came and joined us there and we started doing diplomas and all sorts of training, just helping people train to become jewelers and build profitable jewelry businesses. And yeah, haven't looked back since, so it's been a lot of fun.
Corkie Bolton:That's amazing and I feel there's a lot of parallels between you know both of us and the work that we do. You know I'm super passionate about making and selling my own jewelry, but I'm also just deeply passionate about helping others learn and helping them in general. So I'm excited for our conversation today, for sure, and for people that are you know, right away going to google jess's academy it is jeweler, jeweler's academy with two l's yeah yeah, welcome americans and people from all over the world who have lots.
Jessica Rose:We had to make a decision. At the beginning we were like, how do we spell jewelry? We just went with it, but yeah, everyone, everyone.
Corkie Bolton:Yeah, I know I love it. So you know, one thing that I thought would be awesome to talk about it's at the forefront of jewelers' minds right now is how you know, we've seen the price of gold specifically increased by pretty much $1,000 in the last year, since April of 2024. And I haven't been watching quite as closely, but silver, too, is quite expensive. I mean, I think when I was in college. I mean, I don't want to, this isn't like a quote, but it might've been like $7 an ounce, and now it's 30, right?
Corkie Bolton:So you know, in today's episode we are going to talk about you know, your formulas and techniques for pricing, and considerations and common mistakes. But at the beginning of the episode I just wanted to have you share your thoughts and we can have a conversation about you know what jewelers can be doing right now to reevaluate their pricing and maybe even having tips on how to sort of pivot, you know, with increased costs. So, yeah, take it away. And I know I asked you a bunch of things all at once there, but no that's fine.
Jessica Rose:I think, when stuff like this happens, there can be a lot of anxiety because we think, oh, my goodness, something's changed, what do I need to do? And this happens in business all the time. I think it's really important to remember, like this is the current thing, but there's always something Like do you remember when we all had to put cookies on our website and then there was GDPR, and then there's an economic crisis and then there's a war? So I always explain to people like there's always something, and I think what helps me a lot is not worrying too much about it first of all. So, yes, being aware of it and we can, we'll talk about that much about it first of all. So, yes, being aware of it and we can, we'll talk about that. But remember that your business, if you're running a handmade jewelry business, you're probably going to be doing it for 10 years, 20 years, 30 years or more, and you're building those long term relationships with your clients who trust you, who come to you for you, not because of the price of the pieces, and so I guess my first thing I would say is you know, try not to. I know it's hard, but try not to worry, because people don't buy jewellery based on the price, and this is one of the main things that we need to kind of get across.
Jessica Rose:I think often when you're nervous or you're not getting enough customers, there's an eject reaction I need to change my pricing, I need to lower it, I need to be competitive, but in the race to the bottom, no one is going to win. There will always be someone who's doing something similar than you that's cheaper than you. So in in jewelry, it's all about the relationship you have with your customers, and you'll know this, corgi, from your business. But I don't go to the cheapest person for for things like that, for a luxury item, I will go to the person that I like. That I know that. I trust that. I've been to before and I will get joy out of supporting them, even if it costs more, because people who buy handmade jewelry are not looking for the cheapest option, they're looking to feel good about their purchase.
Jessica Rose:So I think, having said that, with the gold situation in mind, it is a good idea to keep an eye on it, and if the gold price drops by and if it goes up, you know, sometimes we can wait a little bit, but it's something that's so out of our control that I always just encourage people to focus on building your brand, building your relationships, building your skills, doing your training and just stay in your lane, you know, and try not to make any knee jerk reactions like I need to cut my prices because gold has gone down or I need to cut my prices because gold is going up.
Jessica Rose:If you want, you can increase your prices as the price of gold goes up, but I tend to I mean, I don't know how many people hold loads of gold stock but I tend to you know, make pieces of gold like to order or maybe have a little bit of stock and then if I can get a little bit more profit out of it, then brilliant. But there's no hard and fast rules with that. I think the most important thing is to remember the long term vision that you want to build these relationships with your customers. You want to build trust, you want to feel like you have integrity in what you're doing, and the rest it kind of figures itself out.
Corkie Bolton:I mean you really touched on so many great points and there's a little bit of foreshadowing here about common mistakes that jewelers make. Certainly, underpricing 100% is a common mistake and you know, when I reflect on my own gold jewelry business, I know that my hand to probably put me in a more appropriate price point. And the other thing that you said that is so true is, as artists we're kind of obsessing over our pricing a bit but for our customers it is that deep connection, it's buying a piece of your story, it's connecting with you as an artist. And you know, for a lot of my customers I don't actually think that they're, you know, too concerned about a piece being, you know, 100 to even $500 more, for you know the particular value that they see. So I think that that's all great advice and to not panic, to not worry, to not have anxiety always hard to follow. That I think you know we all as small business owners, you know we're very much in it in the day to day, but I also think that's great advice.
Corkie Bolton:What would you say about the artist who perhaps has an inventory of gold work and you know they're looking at, okay, their cost of goods sold when they purchased their materials. You know gold was at a much lower price. Would you say it would be advisable to still continue to price you know, for those pieces? Adjust for the current market Because when those pieces sell you'll have to buy more metal inventory. Can you talk about that?
Jessica Rose:I think, I think why not, you know? Because it's a great chance to improve your profit margins. So if, yeah, if you bought some gold and it was maybe like a thousand dollars, and now that gold is worth two thousand, then it's a good idea to go in and adjust, um, but if you don't, you know, don't feel too bad about it. Like, we all make mistakes with pricing as well. So I I think it's there's something about giving yourself some some kind of grace as well, because we're running, we're doing so many things in running a business. But certainly it's a good idea to adjust. But I wouldn't adjust the other way If the price of gold drops. I probably wouldn't. It's hard to say. It depends how much inventory you kind of have, I think. But the most important thing is it's better to over. It depends how much inventory you kind of have, I think, um, but the most important thing is it's better to overprice. I don't think I've ever seen a jeweler overprice, um, it's always underpricing. So I would review my prices at least every six months and sort of think okay, what am we going to talk about this? But I always say that pricing is an art, not a science.
Jessica Rose:So we can look at numbers, but you also have to feel confident in what you're doing in order to sell it, or at least be able to fake it till you make it a little bit with the confidence.
Jessica Rose:And also, I think, when you're working with high end, you know your customers. So if they've come to you for a long time and you've got a relationship with them and you have some room to you know, some wiggle room, you might say, look, my prices have gone up. But because you're a loyal customer, I'm going to split the difference for this one, but for the next time it is going to go up. So it can be a real opportunity to have a conversation with your customer about an open, honest conversation about what's happening and how you're helping them. But you're also helping yourself, because as a customer, I don't want to feel like I'm exploiting the person I'm buying from. I want it to be a win-win. I want it to be your business is growing and I'm getting a good sort of situation. So I think when we can communicate, that that's probably the best place to be in.
Corkie Bolton:Absolutely. Let's start up with just talking about why is pricing so important and why is it so hard for us, why, why is it so hard?
Jessica Rose:Yes. Well, I think it's so hard because the personal connection we have with our jewelry. So when we're putting our jewelry out there, we've literally put our blood, sweat and tears sometimes into the pieces. And I think every jeweler's fear is someone saying why is it so expensive? That's too much. You know, and we sort of feel it inside. You're like, oh my goodness, are they saying that I'm not good enough? Is my work not good enough? I know lots of people that I work with, even work in sales, but when it comes to selling your own stuff, it's a whole different story because of that emotional kind of connection that we have to our pieces.
Jessica Rose:But the other thing I think is that creatives and this is a stereotype, but it is a stereotype for a reason have invested their time and energy in exploring their creativity and learning and training and often not always, but often we're not super interested in, like, financial spreadsheets, you know, all of that kind of more technical, logical brain kind of stuff, and so I think we need to be a bit easy with ourself on that and say, okay, maybe this isn't my natural strength. However, you don't have to be an accountant or have a maths degree to be able to price your jewelry well, you just need some simple ideas to understand to help you with everything in your business. Simple things like understanding what is profit, where's your break even the things you would learn in like a basic business studies course. But if you've never done it before, you're not meant to know how to do it.
Jessica Rose:And I think with jewelry we know we need to train. We're like, oh, I need to, I need to see someone else do it, I need to learn. But often with business stuff we think I should just know how to do that without having studied it or having anyone told us. So I always say to people you know, don't feel bad if this isn't your natural comfort zone, but it is a skill you can learn. And once you've got it, then you're sorted.
Corkie Bolton:So, yeah, when you are advising your students. I know today we're going to talk about demi-fine jewelry, which is like silver and maybe has some you know, precious, semi-precious stones in it, potentially maybe even some gold accents, and then I also wanted to talk about fine jewelry. So maybe let's start for our silversmiths out there and you know those folks using those materials. What's your general formula for pricing for Demi Fine? Yes, okay, great.
Jessica Rose:Yeah. So this is the formula that I start with. If someone's new to pricing and I think for a formula it needs to be simple enough to not overcomplicate things, but have a certain level of complexity so that it actually works. And of course, the formula is like the skeleton it's just the starting point and then you need to adjust based on your business, your relationships, all sorts of things. But the formula that I like to use to start with is starting with the material costs.
Jessica Rose:So just a word on material costs. We have to be careful that we are including everything and even things like the shipping for the materials to get to you, because those little things, we can look at it and think, okay, I've just used this much of silver, but how much sheet of silver did I need? And I include my scraps in that because, yes, I can recycle and reuse it, but I need to buy it in order to make the piece and perhaps I wouldn't have bought it if I didn't need to make the piece. So I use the scraps, generally speaking, as kind of profit. So materials, including every single bit of material that you can think of, and as you develop and learn and grow, you'll learn more about what your materials are. Um, then add your time. So this is your kind of labor costs. And again it can. You know I've seen people see these formulas and think what does that even mean? So this is the time it took to make the piece, and if a piece takes me three hours, but sometimes it takes me four, I will charge for four. So if it's I'm not going to charge a really rushed amount, the quickest I could ever do it, I'm going to charge for what I'm likely to do it in so that I'm not stressed about about time in my business. So I've got the materials plus the time.
Jessica Rose:So whatever that figure is, add those two together. Then I'll times it by a markup. So the standard markup that we start with is two, but this could also be 2.5. I usually go between two and 2.5, just depending on how it comes out the other end. And then after that that cost that you have, you'll add on any extras. So in the UK we have hallmarking, which is quite an additional cost, but also things like your packaging. If you're included in that in the price, I would add that in extras. I wouldn't do a markup on packaging and any taxes or anything like that would go at the end. So we've almost got these two brackets. We've got the bracket of the formula where we're marking up where we're doubling, and the bracket where we're not. And all of that. Sorry, that's the formula, so I'll say it quicker, in a more succinct way.
Corkie Bolton:Wait, can I just interrupt? This is just a curiosity. How much does hallmarking cost? Oh well, not to digress, but like I'm just fascinated with that because we don't do that here it can really vary, but the prices are going up all the time.
Jessica Rose:Um, so for a piece it might be like three to six pounds, but then you need to stir. Um, if you were doing just one piece, it could cost up to 20 pounds. But if you sent in like 20 pieces, it would go down per item the number of pieces. So if you've got like a collection, you'd send it all in. But if you sent in like 20 pieces, it would go down per item the number of pieces. So if you've got like a collection, you'd send it all in. But if you're doing, say, a gold commission and it's just one piece, that can be up to like 50 pounds, including postage, packaging backwards. So it's a definite additional cost. Oh, my goodness.
Corkie Bolton:And also just quick clarifying question. Goodness, and also just quick clarifying question. This I know you're going to go back in and more briefly kind of go through the formula, but are we talking about how to arrive at a wholesale or retail price?
Jessica Rose:So this is my formula that I use for selling direct to the customer, so it's not for selling through shops and galleries. It's not for selling. Yeah, very good question. So it's your, it's your, it's your all your materials plus your time. Add those together times two plus any extras, equals your kind of, equals your price. But you obviously you don't have to stick to that exact price. But that's where we start. It's a really good starting point. Um, and why do we mark up? I think is a really important question to answer.
Jessica Rose:So the markup is a simple way of covering all the overheads in your business. So these are things like your tools, your training, your electricity. You know everything. Now you can get more detailed and go through and do a whole budget for your business, but it can get very complicated very quickly. So an easy way is to say, okay, let's just times it by two or times it by 2.5. And what I usually recommend is try it for six months and see what happens to your profit. If your profit isn't where it needs to be, add on 10%. If it's working, great, because every business is slightly different. So we want a formula, because we want a structure, but we also have to be flexible in terms of being like well, this business is different, this business needs more profit in, or this business actually has great profit margins. So that's the starting point.
Corkie Bolton:And I just wanted to add to one thing that I was missing in my pricing was consumables, and that is sometimes also like solder. I mean solder is, you know, gold solder, silver solder. That is an actual like asset to your business. It's metal, but you know the solder flux pickle, like all those things that are consumed in the studio. I've started working in a fee, not that I want to get down, you know, in the weeds with all of this, but just mentioning things that I've also learned over the years. And for my jewelry business I pay myself a salary and it is important to reflect the labor in your cogs when you're showing you know what your cost of goods is for tax purposes. Can you talk?
Jessica Rose:about that? Yeah, absolutely. I think it's great that you include consumables. I would probably put them in material costs, but I think what you're touching on, which is really important, is that the longer you run your business, the more you know it, the more these kind of formulas evolve and you can actually get them like stretch them out and make them longer and add in like this is my marketing cost, this is my, you know, this is that, this is the other, Because it's so hard to do that at the beginning, because you just don't know. So you start with something a little more basic. But I love that you're sort of becoming more aware of what you're using and thinking okay, this is how I'm going to account for all of that.
Corkie Bolton:And sorry I can't remember the other question you asked. So I think one important thing as a jewelry business is to show you know your cost of goods in your inventory for tax purposes. Right, because this is money that's, you know, invested in your business but hasn't sold yet. It's an asset. Can you talk about that a little bit? I know I'm kind of throwing the whole tax thing out. I know we can't speak to you, know everyone's tax situation, but just generally speaking.
Jessica Rose:Absolutely yeah. So I think something that's really important for, uh, for any business owner to know is to understand the basics of, like, how finances work in a business. Um, and if you feel like really nervous about this stuff, it really helps to just go on like a one day finance for small business course, just to get the basics down. I did this early on and I was like, oh, that makes a lot more sense. So little things like, okay, so what are cost of goods? So cost of goods are anything that you need to make the piece. So, for example, if I'm making a ring and I need to buy the silver for the ring, that is the cost of the goods I'm. Also, for that ring, I need to spend an hour making it. That time is a cost of the good. Now, if I needed to make 10 rings this is a good way to understand costs of goods that would times by 10 exactly. So the silver would be, I'd need 10 bits of silver and the hour would be 10 hours. I mean, okay, maybe you could do it in a different way, but let's just say for this example it's going to be 10 hours, whereas a hammer is not a cost of a good, because to make 10 rings I don't need 10 hammers, I can use the same hammer. So that would go into overhead. So I think starting to understand what cost of good is and what your overheads are and it doesn't make it easy that there's often five different terms for the same thing, so overheads can also be called fixed costs. And then there's also understanding the terms of sales, which is money into your business, which is different to profit, which we'll come on to in just a moment. So sales is money in, revenue is also money in, it's just exactly the same term.
Jessica Rose:All these things are so confusing at the beginning. What do all these things mean? And then, in terms of profit, we have gross profit. So gross profit and I'm sorry if this is hurting anyone's brain because it is a lot of financial talk, but maybe some of it will go in if it's new is when you take all of your sales, so your revenue, and you minus your cost of goods. So that's minusing those raw materials and the labor. It's not minusing your website fees, your hammers, you know all the other things. So once we minus all those things, the overheads, that's when we get net profit. And for a jewelry business in our industry A standard healthy net profit is 20% or above.
Jessica Rose:So if you're below 20%, it's something to look at. You definitely need to be looking at increasing your prices and or reducing your costs. Gross profit a good general figure is around 60%. So that's healthy. Yeah, just to give an overview. But I know it can get confusing, especially listening to yeah and no. That's healthy. Yeah, just to give an overview, but I know it can get confusing, especially.
Corkie Bolton:Yeah and no. That's a great explanation, and I think, just to really simplify it though, if a ring is one hundred dollars and my cost of goods on the ring labor materials, everything else was 30. Profiting 70, right, and that is something that's looked at when submitting your taxes, because you didn't just make a hundred dollars. You know, those were some of the expenses that your business took on, so it's important to track all of this. So, yeah, so thanks for touching upon that. Let's let's. There's so much to discuss.
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Jessica Rose:Oh, I love pricing fine jewelry and I love fine jewelry. It's awesome. So with fine jewelry, we want a higher profit margin. We are taking bigger risk because we're using more expensive materials, so your profit should be higher with fine jewelry. That's a good place to start. So it's a similar formula but there's a little bit of a difference. So what I do with the fine jewelry formula is that we take all the materials that are I'm going to call them expensive. You can choose what that number is. It might be like over $500. It might be over 350. Anything that you feel like. Okay, this is a lot.
Jessica Rose:So buying 18 karat gold, all of that's going to be in this expensive category. Diamonds are probably going to be in there, unless they're really tiny, in which case you might choose not to put them in there. So we do a different markup for that category. So let's say I've bought $1,000 worth of diamonds and gold. If I did my 2.5 markup that I do on the other jewelry, that would go from 1,000 to 2,500 before I did anything, which is quite a big step and probably will take your jewelry somewhere. That's a little bit too high in terms of the pricing. I mean, if you can get it, go for it. I'm never against, you know, making profit in your business, but generally speaking it may feel a bit out there.
Jessica Rose:So I will change the markup on just those materials and the rest of the formula is the same. So a general markup would probably be 1.5. If it was a lot like I once, we once did a piece at the jewelry school and someone, it was all platinum and it was like a 60 year anniversary and there were 60 diamonds in this giant platinum ring, so it was, you know, thousands and thousands and thousands. If it's sort of 10,000, something like that, then your markup might be 1.2 or 1.3. So you're still, there's still a 2000 pound markup on that, 3000, sorry dollars dollar markup on that.
Jessica Rose:So it's sort of saying okay, I need a markup on my materials, but it doesn't need to be as big because the cost is cost is more. So therefore I've got, you know, I've got plenty. So to make it more succinct, on the fine jewelry, the markup on the expensive elements would be around 1.5 and then the rest of the formula is the same. So I just take that out of the formula, do that on its own and add it at the end. So it's essentially just treating the more expensive elements differently.
Corkie Bolton:Yes and so, and I would just say this is again someone that's selling direct to customer. So I actually had a career milestone recently because a store placed a wholesale order for my gold work. It's a local boutique in Rhode Island called Muse. I'm so excited to be working with them. I always, jessica, this is what I always wanted when I came out of college, like I'll arrive when I'm in all these boutiques. And of course, people that know my story know that. You know that's not how things went, but it's really amazing. Now, as I've been, I've truly found my voice with my work and to now have this first wholesale order where this store is investing in my work. You know it's. It's not consignment, they're purchasing from me.
Corkie Bolton:So one thing I've done all along with my work is that consideration of wholesale, even if I wasn't doing it. Because for those listening that think, maybe one day I would want to do that, you know, if I have, my cost of goods on a gold ring is a thousand. If I only even double that, that means that the store is going to get 50% right. So $1,000 cost. I double it, it's $2,000. Now I'm back with $1,000 again.
Corkie Bolton:I haven't profited any and this is where we touch back upon the art of it all, because I think, at the end of the day, to be able to create work that doesn't become so exponentially expensive that you're outside of the market, you then have to start to look at pieces and really say, okay, is this piece appropriate for wholesaling, is there a way that I can bring my cost down a little bit without affecting the integrity of my work? And it's also been fascinating because, as I've fulfilled this order, you know I have my cost of goods and my profit and some pieces are just inherently more profitable. Yeah, and you know, and it's just a really interesting thing, like, and that's there's this variability there. So I just wanted to touch on that because I know that there are people that are like oh well, one day I might want to wholesale. What would be your advice to them if they were pricing for direct to consumer and then maybe there was an opportunity to consign or to sell at a retail boutique?
Jessica Rose:Yes, absolutely Well. First of all, congratulations, because I love this for you and you've worked so hard on it. Like I've been seeing your stuff and it's just amazing. So thank you, excited.
Jessica Rose:But yeah, so in terms of wholesale, you're right, it is, there are very different considerations. But, yeah, so in terms of wholesale, you're right, it is, there are very different considerations and, like you said, generally speaking, with wholesale pieces, the profit margins need to be a lot higher than if we're selling direct to the customer. So the shop needs to make money, and so do we, and let's, for argument's sake, say it's a 50-50 split, which is quite a good place to start from. So, with this thousand pound ring, you've got your thousand, they've got their thousand and I, generally speaking, don't advise people to have the same pieces that they're selling direct to customer, that they're selling through wholesale. Sometimes it works, but if you've just been doing it direct to the customer and then someone's asked you to do wholesale, most jewelers will have a wholesale collection which will be different, which you talked about which needs to have a higher profit margin. And the way we get a higher profit margin is either lowering the material costs or lowering the time, and most jewelers go for the time. So we keep the material costs. But we think, okay, how can I make this quicker? So this is where other elements might come in. Depends on your business model. But for most people working a lot in wholesale it'll be things like having rings and things cast, perhaps asking them to polish it up, know, and then you're just doing the setting or something. So it's finding ways to make it work where you're going to make money and the shop owner is going to make money, and yeah, so I find with most jewelers they need almost like a separate collection for wholesale. But it doesn't mean that all the work that you've done is lost, because that's what attracted the you, what attracted the wholesale business to you, and they want something like that. But they also understand the business model that you know. If you're, if that ring, let's say, you charge 2000 for it and now it's going to be 4000. Maybe that works, because maybe the shop has like a certain brand and they're able to charge that, or they're in a certain location, has like a certain brand and they're able to charge that, or they're in a certain location, and so their customers will expect that, but maybe it doesn't and therefore you think okay, so for 2000,.
Jessica Rose:What can I do? Am I switching from 18 carat to nine carat? Am I, you know? Am I getting it cast? Is there laser cutting involved? Is there some sort of quicker process so that there is profit for all sides? There's lots of ways to do it, but I think what a lot of jewelers struggle with is thinking I just need to take my current business model and just double it, whereas for me it's a totally different business model. Like everything is different and that's fine. We can embrace that and enjoy it, enjoy it and and find it as a new challenge in our business, which which you're doing already, which is awesome.
Corkie Bolton:Yes, and I agree with everything you're saying, and I think one thing that's helped me in my own business is that a lot of my pieces are one of a kind they're hand engraved and they're in higher karat gold and I'm also sourcing different various gemstones that are, you know, precious, and so that is also helpful. I think that I get the question a lot from a lot of members of our community with their silver businesses. You know it'd be nice to be in stores and you know I say you know same thing, sister. You know like I'm like it's great because you know I say you know same thing, sister. You know like I'm like it's great because you know you're able to in bulk, get that return on your investment but you are making less profit, people being able to come see my work in person, try it on, and I'm also doing custom engagement and wedding bands now. So now there's a brick and mortar where I can meet with clients over at that store and get that support. So there's endless benefits there.
Corkie Bolton:But I think for those starting out, you know the thinking direct to customer and doing markets and pop-ups and you know, do you want to touch upon that a little bit, not so much to do with pricing. But just like for those listening that are like, okay, this is overwhelming, right, because part of this is part of this podcast, today is talking also about profits, right? So, yeah, what are your thoughts?
Jessica Rose:talking also about profits, right? So, yeah, what are your thoughts? Yeah, well, I think that it is much harder to make a profit in wholesale, so I definitely wouldn't start that Like. I remember my first year in business I was like I want to be in all these shops and galleries. And then I did the math and I was like I've done loads of work and I've not made any money, and loads of people bought jewelry from me and I was like, huh, okay, this, this. So it was almost like a vanity thing for me at that point of just like I want to be in all these places and I started to realize that the business models that tend to do the best are actually the ones with the less overheads. Um, one-of-a-kind pieces perhaps, but, um, having less customers and them, them, paying more money. So you, you know, if you want to make I'm not great at doing maths on the spot and there's 12 months in a year, so it's not easy but a certain amount per year and you divide that by how many pieces that you're going to be making.
Jessica Rose:I think sometimes the most profitable business model is just doing kind of bespoke, high end commission work, and I see that happen a lot for jewelers. But it's not all about profit, Like we also have goals and things that we just want to do, like cool stuff that we want to do, like I want my jewelry here. And there's also long term benefits, like you spoke about, in terms of having that physical space because people can come, they get to know you. You're building that trust. None of us are in this because we're trying to make the most money, otherwise we would have chosen something else, I'm sure, but I think for me it's that balance of achieving the things that I want to do and making money, so that there's both. And there are some things that I do because I want to do them and I know they're not going to have a huge profit margin in. And then there are the ones that make the money and I love I can't remember where I heard it, but it really rang true to me this idea that all you need is one bestseller. And if you have one bestseller that feeds your business and that could be a collection, it could be an individual piece, it could be a product, it could even be a service, it could be like your wedding, wedding rings of bread and butter and that allows you to do all your other things that you want to do. And I think for a business, as long as you've got something strong that brings the money in, then you can play with the rest. But yeah, for people just starting out I would say don't worry about wholesale, don't worry too much. You know about fine jewelry. It's more.
Jessica Rose:The first year in business is often just about experimenting. So I love your idea of, like, try some fairs, go out there and meet some people, have some conversations, start building those relationships. I also always say it takes at least three years to build a profitable jewelry business and that's a minimum. So don't expect profit in your first year. Use it as an opportunity to learn, to grow. If you're working at the same time, it's great because that can fund what you're doing, um, and then, yeah, give yourself time. It takes. Any business takes time, um, but jewelry is a trust-based business so it takes a little bit longer. But it also means that once you have a loyal customer that trusts you, they're going to keep coming back and they'll recommend other people, um, and it kind of has that snowball effect. So it's it's kind of like don't give up before the magic happens type situation, like keep going with it.
Corkie Bolton:I mean, and I'm proof of that, and you know, for those that have been following our community for a long time, I started Metal Smith Society in 2019. I keep forgetting what year it was and my jewelry business. I started getting really back into that, you know, just working on it slowly since 2016. And I have to say, I've probably found my most success in terms of finding my voice and, you know, using the skills that I've worked so hard to obtain. I mean, I attend minimally one full 40-hour course on engraving every year and often I go two weeks every year and so, stone setting, engraving, working, working, working on it and it's like now I'm in my ninth year, but not doing it full time, obviously, with everything else I have going on being a mom my mom, you know all the stuff, all my other things. I'm actually getting a puppy next week too. Oh, my mom, you know all the stuff, all my other things. I'm actually getting a puppy next week too. Oh, my goodness. But like it's only in the last year that I'm like picking up momentum. So it's not a rate, it's not a sprint. You know, as they say, and I also, I think it's perfectly appropriate to recommend don't quit your day job, make sure you have insurance and support. And you know, my message to people that maybe aren't in a partnership and they're doing stuff out on their own is like you can make it happen too. You know, um, it's. It's slowly but surely just adding. You know learning and you know putting things out there and trying your best, and it's. It is a slow process and I've seen a lot of jewelers that took them a decade to really become like a full-time. You know, situation Um, one one thing I wanted to touch on, and then we're going to go through some, uh, some other bits, as you called them, before we sign off here.
Corkie Bolton:But I also just wanted to touch upon, going back to this, the artistry of pricing. One thing I do think is fairly important but you have to do it appropriately is you do need to see what your peers are doing, but that doesn't mean you go to Etsy and you search, because there are certain markets that we know that people are severely undercutting. In fact, right now on Etsy you could just order rings in 14 karat gold that are it would be cheaper to buy from this artist than to buy from like. I could buy from this artist the solid gold rings and then melt them down, and I would be at a tremendous profit over current gold value. And I don't know if that's some people haven't caught up or you know, but we know certain marketplaces like that are very undercut in the pricing and we know you are very against that and I'm very against that.
Corkie Bolton:So don't look there. But you might want to look at some boutiques that maybe you really value the artists there and you feel that your work is similar, to just get a sense of whether you are along the same lines and hopefully your product is unique though. I mean, that's what we're striving for, right, so there shouldn't be like, oh, I make earrings just like those. Like you know, like you should be bringing your own thing to the table. But can you just touch upon that a little bit and your advice on including, you know, thoughts of what other people are doing without getting overwhelmed?
Jessica Rose:Yeah, absolutely, I think it's. It's an important thing to think about, and I think everyone has their own way of doing this as well. I always just try and listen to myself in business and sort of be like, has this been good for me? Like, has this been useful for me? Um, I agree with you, like it can be useful to know a bit about the landscape. And almost the way I like to do it is just building community and just knowing other jewelers and sort of hearing things.
Jessica Rose:Some jewelers and people love to do a competitor analysis where they kind of highlight maybe five similar, you know, in quotes, competitors and see what they're pricing all of that. And I don't have anything against that, but for my personality style it it just doesn't, it's not good for me. Like I just start thinking they're all better than me, I've done something, like all this kind of stuff. But but I have people that I work with that are like, oh, I'm so interested in how they do it. So I think it's about listening to yourself and what is giving you what you need? Um, I always believe in like you can create your what you want. So you know it almost. I'm very much like it doesn't matter what's happening in the economy, it doesn't matter what other people are doing Like. There are billions and billions of dollars spent every year on jewelry billions. The global jewelry market is, I think it's over $300 billion a year. So you can price whatever you want and you can find customers for it. And I think once we take that bigger view, it really is freeing because it's like, oh, I can do what I want and, you know, nobody else is looking around and saying, oh, that's, that's too expensive, I'm not going to pay that for that, and if they are, they're definitely not going to be your customer. So with that freedom, I then just focus on, like my own integrity, like what are my values? Okay, I don't. I don't want to overcharge people, but I want to make a good profit. I want to have a good lifestyle. I only want to work about five hours a day. Also, you know, want to have time to do like exercise and eat well and play with the puppy, all of the things you know. I don't want to be doing like 16 hours kind of into all the workaholism stuff. So it's.
Jessica Rose:I think that it's good to have a little look, but then to just put it away and be like right, I have that knowledge, I kind of have an awareness of the landscape.
Jessica Rose:But it's not that important because people buy from you because of their relationship with you, because of their connection with you and, like you said, I'm sure if you increase your prices by $500 overnight nobody would say anything, because they like you and they like your jewelry and they like the combination of the two.
Jessica Rose:And it's not even about the product that much, it is really about the person, like yes, it is great to have good jewelry and it is great to have a signature style, which you kind of touched on, where someone can look at it and be like that's a corgi bolton piece, I know, I recognize, like the real precise engraving I've seen, I see the training, it's all happening, um, but really they are, you know, they like, they have a desire for the piece and they like the connection with the company, which is the individual, and the pricing is just about whether they can afford it or not. And if they're looking at, you know, 18 karat gold, they can afford it. So I don't look too hard, but I do. I do understand the need to sort of, especially at the beginning, just get your bearings and kind of think, okay, this is, this is where I'm at with things. And kind of think, okay, this is where I'm at with things.
Corkie Bolton:Amazing. I think we should close with some of the common pricing pitfalls. Just bullet list them and then maybe we can also start before that with just understanding some of the overheads that you might not have considered before. Right, so we already talked about you know, you have packaging, shipping. You have maybe other marketing materials, like I have little jewelry care cards that I put in my stuff. Let's, let's go through some of those real quick and then we'll talk about a few pitfalls, just bullet point. Then, uh, we'll uh close it out awesome.
Jessica Rose:yeah, I mean, I think a great thing to do is to have a little spreadsheet and every time you identify a new cost, add it in. Um, I did, yeah, I did this when I started, uh, my first jewelry school, which is a slightly different business model, but it still applies and there were things like, oh, we needed a cleaner once a week and I was like I did not account for that in my business plan. Put that in like, oh, we need you know, like Luroll, put that in like all these little things that you don't think about. So, yeah, I mean, there's so many Stationery. If you still print stuff printing flyers, if you still print stuff printing flyers, yeah, all your packaging and packaging is a huge area as well, because you might have bags, you might have like inserts you might have, you might include like a free little polishing cloth. So everything that you do that's free is not free.
Jessica Rose:That's part of your marketing spend and, just as a just as a side point, I generally recommend around a 20% marketing spend on each piece. So you can spend marketing in all different ways. One way is posting on social media, so that's your time as the business owner. So that's a marketing spend. Another could be doing like a giveaway once every six months and it's hard to quantify an exact 20% marketing spend, but that's kind of my budget. So if I'm selling something for £100, I expect to spend around £20 selling it, contributing towards like a stall at an event. So, but I just like to have it in my mind. Or it could even be a bonus, like when you buy this, you get this free. I don't know jewelry, dish or whatever which costs 20 pounds, so it's that's a good idea.
Corkie Bolton:I've never considered adding in, like for a gold piece, adding 20% for marketing and then putting out ads for it Like I haven't been doing any of that. So clearly, you and I have to have another conversation on another day. I have a article actually on my blog about pricing jewelry. It's from a few years ago. I updated it in 2022, but I just want to read a few bullet points. So, beyond our raw materials and gemstones, we have our consumable materials solder, flux, polish and compounds. We have studio equipment. That is not necessarily, like you said, going to go into each individual piece, but it is overall fixed cost Potential studio rent or utilities.
Corkie Bolton:If you do have an employee, your own labor, for sure, childcare website subscriptions and fees are really important, one that people forget Etsy, shopify, squarespace big cartel like you're paying for that monthly and you're also losing a fee on top of everything else that should be considered. You have your credit card fees when you're, you know, accepting payment, photography equipment or paying a photographer um design and photography apps and subscriptions Like I use oh my God, the things that go into doing a podcast. I have the editing stuff. I use GarageBand. I'm, you know. Thankfully, my husband is the one that edits this, but if I had to pay someone to do that you know, packaging, shipping fees, business cards, promotional flyers I pay an accountant on top of my husband helping me with accounting and business related expenses like your sales permit renewal, creating an LLC or filing for a DBA.
Corkie Bolton:If you're like me and your first LLC was Metal Ribbon Studio, and then you had to subsequently do several DBAs and then even education workshops and online classes those go into the cost of your business. So I know that's throwing a lot at people, but I think your advice is very sound. Just create a spreadsheet. And for those that are maybe asking okay, but then how does that work into everything, would you suggest something along the lines of considering what your fixed costs are per month and then how many pieces you're making per month and then consider okay, if I divide, like, how would you approach that?
Jessica Rose:Yeah, it gets complicated, doesn't it? It does, yeah. So this is where the formulas kind of come in and they simplify everything. And there's good things and there's bad things about that. So simplifying everything means you don't have to worry too much about every little detail. And again, I think it depends on your personality type. Like some people will love love a spreadsheet, love having everything laid out and love doing all the calculations. Like that's my partner, whereas I'm like I just want a ballpark. I just I want to make things and I want it to kind of work out. So, yeah, same, it's just playing to your personality type and what works for you so that you can move forward.
Jessica Rose:But this is what the markup is for. So the markup is for covering these overheads and I like to bracket them into different areas, like marketing. So when you talked about like all the printing business cards, that would all be included in marketing for me. So, like I said, 20% of the piece, 20% of your income for the year, would go on marketing. So at the end of the year I might look at what did I spend on marketing as a whole this year. And if I bought in $20,000, did I spend around 2000? If so, that feels of 4000. If so, that feels about right. If I'm spending like 15,000, and I'm only getting in 20, then that's where I'm sort of thinking, okay, this isn't the right, the right ratio. So I always look at percentages rather than numbers, because percentages help me predict what's going to happen in the future as the business grows. Like, will I keep that similar percentage and the same, like with all the tools, equipment, training. That's an overhead.
Jessica Rose:So this is where to keep it simple. For those who are like me and the brain is hurting at this point yes, okay, we're marking, marking up, we're using our time and materials. We're marking up by 2.5. Let's see if that works, you know, and if in six months it's not working, okay, let's add on 10. So you, that way, you don't need to look at it all um and you can just it's a bit more of an intuitive business model now, for some people are freaking out at that, like, oh my gosh, there's so many unknowns, you're not looking at all the details, which is also a totally valid, you know way to look at it. You can do the spreadsheet and I did this in my business, I think, about three years in.
Jessica Rose:I tried both ways and then I kind of found a middle ground that works for me, putting in all the costs each month under all the different categories, working out your profit each month and your income, and then basically it's like a profit and loss. So checking, okay, what's coming in, what's coming out, and I for a period of time I looked at it every month and I looked at, okay, what's happening in my business and really studied it and really understood it, and for some people that's going to be a great way to see okay, there's a cost here. I'm not using this subscription anymore, let me get rid of it. Or if I could increase my prices by 10%, then I would make you know a huge amount more. So there's no right or wrong way, but I think it's finding the way that works for you.
Jessica Rose:But it's important for people to know that that's what the markup is for, because I know some people have commented on some of like our pricing reels and said why do you mark up? You're just trying to make money out of people. And other people say, um, you know where do the overheads go? And that answers both of those questions is that's why we mark up to cover, to cover the overheads go and that answers both of those questions is that's why we mark up to cover the overheads, because otherwise, if we had no overheads, we could just account for our materials and our time. And you know, we're done.
Corkie Bolton:Right off into the sunset, exactly.
Jessica Rose:Simple. So it's all in the markup and you get to choose your markup. So you can choose how much money you make.
Corkie Bolton:It's just up to you markup so you can choose how much money you make. It's just up to you. That's awesome. So I think, in summary, the pricing pitfalls are going to be underpricing your work to appear more competitive and not accounting for your overhead expenses. So by keeping your spreadsheet and it is one of those things you do it once and you update it a little bit and you're going to feel more comfortable knowing the exact expenses of your business. And to your last point, you might find that there's a subscription or something else that you could just do without. And then also just being consistent with pricing, whether you're doing, if you're doing wholesale or retail, making sure that they align, you know, and that you're not, you know, and any good retail store too, they're not going to charge more than what you're charging for your work either. So you have to make sure that's a cohesive story. So thank you, jess, for the conversation today and giving some simple formulas.
Corkie Bolton:I know that some of our listeners are going to be like, okay, this is great, but so I want to let them know that you can, I'm going to. Where am I looking for here? I'm going to share a link in my show notes for your free pricing masterclass. The course comes with a downloadable spreadsheet to walk you through the formulas and calculate your pricing, so that's an awesome asset. I want to know that people can follow you on Instagram at Jewelers Academy and that's jewelry with two L's. On Instagram at Jewelers Academy and that's jewelry with two L's and Jess. You also have a bestselling book, start and Grow a Profitable Jewelry Business, which I have a copy of. It's awesome and I know this was like a while ago for both of us that we wrote our books. But again, just like congrats to you. It's such a labor of love. I hope your book continues to be on in print and helping people.
Jessica Rose:Oh, thank you. Yes, likewise we could have had them at the same time. We did, yeah, but you're right, they are a lot of work, but so great. And, yeah, also obsessed with your book and we have it in the jewelry school. We have a jewelry school and often recommend it to people. So it's yeah, it's just a wealth of knowledge.
Corkie Bolton:So I really appreciate that. Can you tell us about your podcast?
Jessica Rose:Yes, sure so the Jewelers Academy podcast we've just done our 250th episode.
Corkie Bolton:Oh my gosh, congrats, thank you.
Jessica Rose:Yeah, talk about labor of love podcast. Yeah, yeah, I love chatting, though. So the podcast, yeah, me too. This part's the easy part. Yeah, yeah, just chatting about jewelry and business. But, yeah, so we talk about jewelry making, we talk about stone setting, we talk about starting and growing a jewelry business. We have, you know, lots of jewelers on Anything that's going to help somebody. Yeah, reach those goals of learning to make jewelry, starting a business. Just come check it out. We'd love to have you, and we've had corkie on it as well.
Corkie Bolton:So, yes, so uh sharing some of her story. So, yeah, I said I shared the drama, how this all came to be. Yeah, love it. Here for the drama, here for the. Yes, jess also has a YouTube channel which is called Jewelers Academy. Again, two L's Lots of free courses and pay-as-you-go courses and even a year-long diploma course.
Corkie Bolton:I'm going to link all of this in the show notes today and they're for anyone, whether you're a beginner or you already have your jewelry business and you need more advanced help or instruction. Your jewelry business and you need more advanced help or instruction. So lots of places to get connected with you, jessica, and I also wanted to say thank you to my Patreon supporters. Without their support, this podcast would not be possible and we're going to sign off here, jess and I, but we're going to continue on for our Patreon community. I'm going to be answering some exclusive questions and we're also going to talk about mate rates, discounts for friends and discounting in general. So if you want to hear that exclusive content created for Patreon, you can head over to patreoncom. Slash metalsmithsociety. Thanks again, jessica. I think I have been calling you Jess and Jessica.
Jessica Rose:That's fine, both work. Yeah, I'm happy with either. Jessica's usually when I'm in trouble, but it's fine All right. Thank you Great chatting with you. No, thank you for having me, corgi, and just wanted to say thank you as well. So much for everything you do with the Metalsmith Society. That is the real labor of love. I mean, yeah, I'm always in awe of the community that you've built like a genuine community, because there are some out there new ones. I love your passion. So, yeah, thank you for all that you do.
Corkie Bolton:Thank you. Thank you so much for tuning in to today's episode. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Jessica and picked up some helpful insights about pricing your jewelry and avoiding common mistakes many of us make when running a business. If this episode resonated with you, please subscribe, leave a review and share it with your jewelry making community. It helps so much in growing the podcast. You can support the show by joining my Patreon at patreoncom slash metalsmith society. As a special thank you, all Patreon supporters will receive a free digital copy of Jessica's book Start and Grow a Profitable Jewelry Business an incredible resource for makers at any stage For more jewelry making tips, tutorials and behind the scenes content. Join our community and follow along at metalsmithsociety on Instagram and head over to metalsmithsocietycom. Keep learning, keep experimenting and remember. Pricing your work confidently is a form of valuing your time and your craft. Until next time.
