A conversation between Shannon Bartlett, the Chief Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion Officer at the National Geographic Society, and Aisha about the importance of diversity, equity, and inclusion in organizations. They discuss embedding DEI in all aspects of an organization, the power of storytelling to create meaningful change, being an activist in place, making career shifts, and the significance of resilience and resistance.
A conversation between Shannon Bartlett, the Chief Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion Officer at the National Geographic Society, and Aisha about the importance of diversity, equity, and inclusion in organizations. They discuss embedding DEI in all aspects of an organization, the power of storytelling to create meaningful change, being an activist in place, making career shifts, and the significance of resilience and resistance.
Be Black. Be Bold. Be Innovative. Show the World Equitable Geo. We're coming together as a collective to celebrate people of African descent, the diaspora, and talking about geospatial equity and justice. You're listening to The North Star Gaze, a podcast with intimate stories from geoluminaries. So we're here today at the North Star Homecoming, Resilience and Resistance. On your panel, your, comment really connected with me. You said that our connection to brands are complicated, making DE& I an integral part of organizations, their staff and leadership and employees, their programs and their products. Can we talk a little bit more about that then also how intentional are you about making sure that diversity exists up and down the entire organization? Sure. So for me, my approach to diversity, equity, and inclusion work is that I expect it to be not just focused on retention and recruitment. And this was one of the big conversations I had as I was considering coming to the society. was, oftentimes, organizations frame the conversations around, we just need to recruit new people, and we just, and we need to retain them. And my point has always been, unless you are intentional about embedding DEI and diversity, equity and inclusion in everything the organization is going to be doing, you are going to lose people because you can have the best recruiting strategies in the world and you can be doing amazing work to retain people, but if every day they're coming in and they're doing their day to day jobs and they don't see that commitment to Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion in how the organization is conducting itself, how it is making decisions on a micro and macro level, you will lose people. And so when, as I was considering taking the position, it was really important for me to understand how the organization is seeing and was seeing. Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion as an integral part of how the entire organization operating. That in addition to doing lots of the things like making sure our hiring practices were equitable and inclusive and that we were strategically diversifying our staff. That we were also very much thinking about who we hired for events. Where were we entering into contracts with in terms of venues? Did we see opportunities to bring in minority and women owned companies and suppliers and vendors? As we thought about our mission work, because I'm on the non profit side. Were we being thoughtful about how we were recruiting our grant applicants and how we were, what kinds of projects that we were investing in? Were they, you know, community led and involved local collaborators? So for me, it's really, really important to make sure the organization is thinking about it holistically and not just how do we recruit people and how do we retain people. But that is at the heart and foundation of our organization's work. Okay, so this morning we talked a lot about the future of National Geographic, how to keep it relevant, how to keep it fresh, how do we target the younger audience. What are some ways that you're going about doing that? So I think that's a, we talk about that a lot, right? I have children, they do not read magazines. They really don't watch TV or consume you know, videos and information the same way I did growing up where you turn on the TV and what was on was on, right? And some of the few. I mean, I think a lot of the shows that we could all agree with between me and my siblings and my parents to watch were sometimes National Geographic films. And so they consume media and products, information so so so differently. So there's that, I mean, what is the medium by which we are. Putting out content. And so, you know, we're less reliant on things like magazines or even long, long form films. And on the non profit side, we're really thinking about social media and we're thinking about short term, you know, short films and other types of ways of dispersing the knowledge about our amazing grant applicants, our grantees and explorers. So part of it is the mechanism, but part of it also really is, The stories that resonate for me, frankly, as a black American are different than the stories that resonate with some of the traditional sort of National Geographic audience, and so, for me, the work of Tara Roberts, who's our Explorer of the Year a few years ago her work, she's an African American storyteller, and she, her work is about this organization called Diving With a Purpose, which is predominantly black scuba divers. As someone who doesn't even swim, the idea of I was like, you know, today's presentation, I was like, where's the third option on those of us who don't know how to swim at all? But, So, but, you know, there's an organization called Diving With A Purpose, which is black scuba divers, and they actually are seeking out the the ships that wrecked as part of the transatlantic slave trade. And the story, she has this amazing podcast called Into The Depths, that is this amazing con amazing podcast about the, her story to working with Diving With A Purpose, the, how it felt as you know, the descendant of enslaved Africans to. Go on a dive, or that's where you're actually trying to locate those who didn't survive the Middle Passage. Reek, she goes to the African continent and what that experience was like as a Black American going there and what is home for us as Black people in the United States who are descended from enslaved people. It's just this, it's this fascinating story that she tells and it's one that really resonates for me as a Black American in ways that other stories do not. So the importance, as Karen Greenfield said on the panel today, about telling those types of stories that will resonate with Black people. Us as an audience is really essential because the demographics of this country are changing, dramatically, and in order to stay relevant for the bulk of American audiences, we have to be telling the stories that we see ourselves in as well. And then also because we are, you know, more of a global organization, many of the stories that the bulk of the world is looking for is very different from the types of stories that have dominated sort of global media, which is often, you know, from Global North organizations and reflect those preferences. So part of it is telling the, the stories that resonate more for those of us from historically excluded populations in the United States, but also in terms of being globally relevant. You know, types of stories that communities around the world are wanting to see. We're not just happy with hearing the stories that resonate with a certain part of the world. We want to see ourselves globally as well. Yes. Okay, so along the same lines We talked this morning, the panel talked this morning about lived experience versus the gaze. Yes. Can you talk a little bit more about that? Sure. So we talk a lot about how traditionally, in traditional media, and I, not just National Geographic, but generally, the stories of places of how Usually been through a Western gaze, right? There's an, an othering, an exoticization of, of people in communities as outsiders go in. And, and I was thinking about this because we have the, the society, we have this amazing program called Photo Camp, which is on its 25th year. And it involves National Geographic storytellers, photographers, and writers who work with a group of young people. And they've been all over the world. And they had one in Botswana last year, and I was looking at the the end product. So they, this, the participants learn about storytelling. And the goal of it is to help young people understand their voice and how to be able to tell their stories. And what struck me was, and I saw the end product. I didn't attend, but I saw the video, the wrap up show reflecting this, the student's work. And what struck me was, as I looked at this video of the Photographs taken by young people in this town in Botswana is how different their depiction of their surroundings were from the depictions that I've often associated with National Geographic from long ago, right? Like, that what I saw were mothers looking, you know, with their babies smiling. You saw, for me, what you, what you saw was what's there and not the absence. there. So also often when people are going into a place that is not theirs, what they focus is on are the things that they see as different or missing or the deficit. And when you turn the camera on your own community, what you see is what's there, the love, the resilience, the joy in those small moments. And so. For us, as we think about you know, what is the Western gaze, it's how do we make sure that we're showing what's there and how the stories that people tell of their own communities and the, this, the, the moments that spark, you know, joy and reflection and when they look at, when those audiences look, they say, yes, That's what I see when I walk through this community. Now, there is some value, right, to having someone from outside a space go in and see, but when that's the only thing you see. And when you're, as a photographer, going in, and the only story you're telling is the one that stands out to you, part of your responsibility, I think, as a storyteller is to ask yourself, Why is this the thing that I'm drawn to? What does that say about my lens or the perspective that I bring? to this to my storytelling approach, and that is, I'm happy to say that's one of the conversations that our storytellers are having as within our the National Geographic Society, which is recognizing how much they bring and they are authors of the stories. I love that. I love that. So important for people. Allowing people, empowering people to tell their own stories. I've got little ones as well. And so I've got a nine year old and a four year old. And when I hear the world as viewed through my nine year old's lens, it's, it's amazing. And so I want more of that. So I just tell her to keep talking. Yes. And so we have Alex. He's our geographer at National Geographic, the geographer and he, and he's, and I said this earlier today, he's always reminding us that maps have authors, right? They are not an objective depiction of what's there or not there. Decisions about what to call a place is a decision. It's not the only way to describe a place. And so one of the interesting projects that we've been funding, I've funded a couple projects Offering different communities how they would map a place, right? And how they would depict it on a map is often very different. And I think about this with kids. So if you went to Kids, and you said, draw a map of your neighborhood. What are the, what are the places that you would want to highlight that people would know? Those maps would look very different from the way you and I as adults would, would, you know, choose to represent that place. They're going to, you know, my daughter will pick the parks, you know, this is her favorite park. And she'll pick, you know, this is where we get ice cream or This is where we had this birthday party, right? Like the, the ways they think about a place are so different from the way that we do. And that recognition to me is really important that we are all authors of you know, how we think about place and how we think about the spaces around us. And those are decisions that we organizationally can lean into or not lean into, but we have to recognize we are making decisions. Right. And that has not always been. As, as evidence in how we've talked about what we've put out there, how we've depicted the world and places. All right. So sometimes when you think about the problems of the world, they seem vast, they seem large. And so when I talk to people who are interested in being allies, when I talk to, to young kids, when I talk to young people, I talk in terms of making it local to them. I talk in terms of being an activist in place. So could you give me an example or tell me a story about times or how you would help young folks navigate being an activist in place? So you're in place in the moment, you see something that's happening around you. How do you use your voice? How do you use your presence? How do you show up in that moment? I think that's a great question and it's one I actually talk about a lot with adults as well as young people. In some ways I think that young people see their responsibility to act in the moment much more readily than I think some of us as adults. And, you know, I think part of that is there's just a lack of comfort level, I think, on the part of many adults of a certain generation. I put myself in. I'm talking about those things. You just didn't talk about those things, right? And we have gotten, and I put in this own bucket. We have gotten so used to Changing or accommodating our ways to the comforts of those of dominant identities that It's hard sometimes to unlearn that, and I consider myself someone who, you know, has a much greater comfort level with bringing up hard topics, but even then, you know, I still, you know, came of professional age and in a time where you didn't talk about things. Anyway, so I would say I do think young people are actually, you know, they're getting it right. They are further ahead than us, but what I often talk about in terms of whatever whoever the audience is, is that Trying to think about some, so many problems feel completely intractable when you think about them. How do you dismantle racism or misogyny or homophobia when you, when you, or even the wealth gap, right? I mean, there's such complicated problems and the scale of them is so large that you, it's easy to become frozen in place and just think, I can't do that. And so what I often tell people to think about is exactly what you said. Focus on the things that are in your control. I don't need you as an ally to You know, commit to dismantling racism. I don't actually need you to do that. What I need you to do is think about what are the actions you can take in places you have influence that can make a difference. So, if it's a wealth gap, maybe put your savings account in a black owned bank. Or, you know, something like that. Something that feels small. But actually is really meaningful. Maybe when you're going out to buy a bottle of wine, maybe you think, is there a Black owned vineyard that I can buy a bottle of wine in? If you're going to go make, buy makeup, you know, whatever, what, as you make decisions, take a few minutes to say, what can I do to actually forward a DI to make a more inclusive decision? And if everyone is doing that, then you'll start to see meaningful, meaningful change. And so for, you know, if I'm talking to a colleague at work, it's. You heard something, you wondered about it, instead of coming to me and saying, did you hear about this or that? Ask yourself, what conversation can you have, right? And you don't have to be in the moment, like I might be more comfortable bringing up something in a group of people in a group setting. Maybe that's not your comfort level, but maybe you can follow up with a person afterwards, right? And so really helping people understand that it is, for me, the everyday actions that we take that are mindful that are Really important for us to foster cultures of doing those things because if we focus on what can I as one person do to end racism, that feels like a lot, but what can I do to make sure that if I see bias towards a colleague that I take a step towards doing that, that's what you can do. Okay, best piece of career advice that you can give at this point in your career? Well, I have three. One of them is to be mindful of the, the, how dreams can influence your career. So I often tell people that I didn't set out to be a DI person. I didn't set out to even be a lawyer and that was my career before. And And I had a very set vision of what I was going to do, but over time, learning to say, Okay, this dream may have gotten me into this school or on this path or into this career. That was the Shannon before who's had all these experiences. So recognize the importance of having dreams to help provide direction. But at some point, sometimes dreams start to hold you back from the new you, the new experiences that you've had. So be mindful of, you know, it's important to have an idea of a path that you're going, but be open to the ways in which as you have new experiences that dreams can change. The second would be the importance of You know, reflection. And so one of the best pieces of advice I heard was from an alum of a school that I was working at at the time, a university, and he gave a speech and he talked about how he was at a career pivot and he got offered a job and it was an amazing job. And and he was really trying to figure out, should he take this job? His mama was like, you better take that job. Like, that's a good job. You better take that job. And ultimately he didn't take the job. And everyone was like, what are you doing? And he said, for him, he realized he needed to think about what's the job after the job. That this shiny bauble, like this thing looked like an amazing opportunity. But when he asked himself the second question, which was, where's, what's next? That wasn't the job that made sense, right? And even though everyone in his life, his mom, his family, his friends were like, you take that good job right there and you do that. To be able to say, actually, I think that's getting me off my path takes a lot of insight and self reflection. And I can say at least once, one of my biggest sort of career regrets was I didn't. Ask that follow up question. I said, I'm gonna take that job. It's more money. It's a high title, but it got me off my path. If I'd asked myself the follow up question, is this actually going to lead to something else? the answer to that was a clear no, but I didn't do that. And part of that is you have lots of loved ones and advisors who are saying this is the clear thing to do and sometimes being able to reflect and say what's your idea of success and where you're going is It's a hard thing, but it's really important in terms of career. And then the final piece is the really important, again, thinking reflection. And pick a time. I always tell people I'm mentoring, pick a, it can be your birthday, it can be the new year, make it once a year where you say, am I happy? Do I like what I'm doing? Does this feel aligned with who I am or what I'm trying to be? And you know, most years the answer to that question has been, yeah, I said, you know, and then sometimes the answer has been, it's really not. And then asking yourself. When was the last time that I felt I resonated? What were the things that I enjoy? Because I do worry about sometimes people end up at a path and they feel stuck. And it's important to have those moments of reflection about, you know, is this really what I should be doing right now? And if everything in you is saying, no, it isn't, then it's time to think about what's next. So, and don't be afraid to start over. So, I have started over. That was going to be my question. That was going to be my question. So, so how did you, how did you make the shift? If you started out on a path, you realized that path was not the right path for you. How did you make the shift? How did you find the courage, the fortitude to make the shift? It's, it's really scary. So even taking this position I, my entire career had been in law, in the legal field and then in universities. And in legal education. And in Chicago. So this was very much outside of my comfort zone, right? It's a nonprofit sector had nothing to do with law. It was in a new city. It was it felt it was it was really scary to think about it. But I just had to trust that At the end, I was, I trusted that I would learn what I needed to learn that I was capable of doing it. And I had to trust that the people who thought and that the search committee or the search firm that they thought I could do it, then I needed to rely on their faith for a little bit of time. Sometimes you fake it and you make it and then you're walking in it. Yes. And sometimes you really do need other people to see in you what you might not see. There's so part of it is, you know, again, I walked in there knowing what I knew and knowing what I didn't know. So having, you know, having that level of humility so that I knew where I needed to you know, grow my, grow my knowledge. But yeah, it's terrifying. It's really terrifying whether it's switching to a new field whether it's switching to new space, whether, you know, professionally or to a new city, those are all they can be scary. But I also think. About all of the experience that I've experience that I've had and know I've dealt with some really hard things and I just had to trust that this was something. This is another thing that would be a little hard, but you know, you just had to carry, you know, that I had to trust in myself. Okay, so With your vast array of professional skills. How do you think you'd survive the zombie apocalypse? Oh, so, you know, funny, I wish my husband was here, because I love zombie movies, and so there are certain things I, you know, like, I make sure that I stockpile, so, you know, like stuff in the house, like, in case the zombie, he's like, is this in case the zombie apocalypse? I'm like, it is, it is. So it's interesting. I, I worry a little bit because I feel like I have no tangible skills, right? Like I can't you know, I can't make things like I'm not a carpenter. I can, you know, I can follow a recipe, but I kind of need the Google, you know, the Google recipe. But I do think I am bold, so I'm willing to take risks. I also am willing to push myself into the sort of uncomfortable. zones. So, and I'm willing to learn new things. And so I think that I would probably initially have to make sure that I'm have strategic alliances with people who do have the skills to build shelter, for example, and you know, live off the land and grow things. So I think I would have to use a lot of my legal collaboration skills to build those those alliances. But then I would know that I'd have to actually build my skill sets too. Oh, it's funny. It's funny, because I use this analogy to get my kids into the car quickly in the mornings. I'm like, I need you to get in the car, close your door. First thing you do is close your door. I was like, in a zombie apocalypse, the zombie's just gonna reach right in and take you, and I'm gonna have to say bye. You have to practice. You have to practice. I know, I'd probably geotag my children. Alright, and last question, resilience or resistance? That's a tough one. I, I, it's a tough one. I feel it's, it's natural for me to lean towards resistance. A lot of my work is focused on. resisting the status quo, asking questions really pushing people to resist the temptation to do the way, do things the way we've always done them. My point often is, is systems that seem meritocratic often were built to exclude. And so by simply maintaining those systems, Even if that's not the intent of the decision makers within that system, the system itself had, was built with those intents. So being content with the things that we are doing or the way things have always been is insufficient and that we really have to resist the urge to. Stick with what we know and what we're comfortable with. So my entire sort of philosophy is built on resistance, right? Resisting peer pressure, resisting you know, the desire to be comfortable or to sort of live by the comfort. That said, resilience is also really important to the work, too. The ability to be able to Navigate tough times and be able to not to keep going, right? And to gather strength from the hard things and from working with others and being able to, you know, have humility and realize, Ooh, that did not go the way I had hoped, but I'm going to, I'm going to learn from it and, and move on and see that as not reflective of my ability, but, you know, this is a thing, an opportunity to learn. So they're both such integral parts of the work that I do and how I see the world. I would probably lean towards resistance only because and this is one of the great ironies is that I'm always quoting Audre Lorde, right? Can't dismantle the master's house with the master's tools . And so, but yet I often work in organizations where what we are doing is tweaking. And my goal is to get everyone to resist. Resist the the status quo and really think about what are the opportunities to reimagine our systems for the goals that we have for who we are today and, you know, even technology. I'm like, when they were making these things up, like the technology didn't even exist. We could be doing things so different but it's scary. And there is, so navigating the resistance is probably a bit more resident even though resilience is such an important part of it. Yes, And on that note, thank you to our listeners. I want to thank the sponsors of the 2023 Homecoming Conference event, which was held on Howard University's campus. Thank you National Geographic Society, National Academy's Gulf Research Program, Mapping Black California, Hope and Heal, and Spatial GIS. We also want to give a special thanks to our guests. Thank you. for trusting us with your stories. Shannon, Sandra, Kevin, Margo, Frank, Jen, Dr. Louberts, Karee, Dr. Graham, Gloria, Michael, Eric, Sky, Nick, Dr. Yoboa Kwakun, Veronique, and Dawn. We also want to thank Howard University for allowing us to present in the iconic browsing room and to the Northstar team. Thank you. Shakonda, Raisha, Clinton. Erica, Yolanda, and our volunteers and student ambassadors. Thank you also to KMG. Audio is produced by Cherry Blossom Production, and I'm Aisha, your host and the executive producer of the inaugural season of the North Star Gaze podcast, which is based on the 2023 Homecoming conference event. Thanks for listening to the North Star Gaze, intimate stories from geoluminaries. If you're inspired to advance racial justice in geofields, please share this podcast with other listeners in your community. The intro and outro are produced by Organized Sound Productions with original music created by Kid Bodega. The North Star Gaze is produced in large part by donations and sponsorship. 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