In this podcast episode, Aisha chats with Dr. Linda Loubert, a political economist, GIS professional, and professor at Morgan State University discusses the intersection of economics and geography. She shares her experiences in the GIS field and highlights the importance of diversity in GeoSTEM careers. Dr. Loubert also talks about her work with the HEJTT team and the role of GIS in addressing environmental justice and climate change. Join us for an informative and inspiring conversation!
In this podcast episode, Aisha chats with Dr. Linda Loubert, a political economist, GIS professional, and professor at Morgan State University discusses the intersection of economics and geography. She shares her experiences in the GIS field and highlights the importance of diversity in GeoSTEM careers. Dr. Loubert also talks about her work with the HEJTT team and the role of GIS in addressing environmental justice and climate change. Join us for an informative and inspiring conversation!
Be Black. Be Bold. Be Innovative. Show the World Equitable Geo. We're coming together as a collective to celebrate people of African descent, the diaspora, and talking about geospatial equity and justice. You're listening to The North Star Gaze, a podcast with intimate stories from geoluminaries. Hi, I'm here today with Dr. Loubert, who's a political economist. a G-I-S professional, a professor at Morgan State University. I've heard your name in the GIS space for years and I'm so excited to have this opportunity to finally sit down and have a one to one conversation with you. So welcome to the podcast can you share a little bit about your background and what inspired you to pursue an area of study that's at the intersection of economics, and Geography. Okay, well thank you very much for having me and I'm excited about this conversation. I have been in doing GIS for over 20 years now, believe it or not, so the, the intersection of, economics and geography People, people always say geography, and I know it's about the Earth, but I don't really know much about the Earth. But what I do know is the technology of layering information that's critical for an economist to know. So, I like to think of myself as maybe being at the intersection of economics, specifically political economics. And GIS, because this is a tool that is for this age, and that tool is something that is exploding for its uses, and so I'm happy to be a part of it, and I'm happy to know that I have learned it from when we were using GIS 3. 1. ArcView, I should say, ArcView 3. 1. Yes, yes. And so, I think I came on to using GIS technology at ArcView 3. 2. And so, so yeah, it's, it's, it's been, it's been an evolution to say the least. Okay. So what drew you to the Homecoming event? We wanted to work around the theme of resilience and resistance and you accepted the call when the call came. So what drew you to the event and then how does your work relate to the themes of resistance and resilience? Well, okay, so what drew me to it was that there were African Americans and people of color in Esri who seemed to understand that we needed to have this More inclusive, and it seemed that North Star was that entity that was taking the lead with this. I mean, I have to admit, yes. I would go to conferences David Padgett and I, we would solicit folks to every black face that we could see, here, there, here, everywhere, or not everywhere, but whatever spaces we found to invite them to get together. And it was mostly some HBCU folks that started, but just to know that this technology is so useful for so many African Americans and the communities and the fact that we, when you look at any kind of demographics and statistical analysis of education incomes and wealth, African Americans have not. Been at the top of those and one of the things I feel like being here in this space is helping to bring attention to, a fact, although it's like people know it, but to see it spatially and to see it visually is another thing. And so I think when we, the call came, it was like, oh yeah, yeah. Resilience, resistance. It's, it's like we have been able to make it. Without, the needed kinds of things that most folks have had. And so, there's this resilience within us. And I'm ready to help make that shine. Help make that not as necessary as Always as it's been, because resiliency, I mean, it's a great trait, but why is it that we have to always be resilient? Why is it that we aren't at the forefront, and, well, what are things that we don't know to help bring us there? And here, again, I see GIS as a tool to be able to highlight and understand and discover. Things about us living here in the United States, but not only in the United States, across the world. So you sound really passionate about this work. What drives your passion? Oh, the, oh, the fact that I have a chance to teach others. I mean, those students, it was just Wednesday night, I'm working with my students. Labor econ, that's the class. Labor economics. And we went through all of the theories about labor econ. Isoquants, all of that kind of stuff, . Understanding through the lens of economics. Then I brought them to decide on a project to do. And it had to be a story map. So I had to teach them a little GIS, but to see them take their minds and use this tool, it's, even though it's online, it's not pro or anything like that, but to be able to use this tool, to be able to express themselves in a creative way and through an academic lens is to me, it's just. Brings a smile to my face that I am able to facilitate that I am able to see economics as this place of really utilizing GIS. And I can help my students do that. They walk away with tools that, other folks don't have. So let's talk about your students just a little bit. What would you say is the main demographic of students in your classes? African American. Well, no they are mostly well, I guess maybe predominantly African Americans, but a large majority are African. And maybe recently here, or maybe, have gone through high school at least here. Okay, so in the African diaspora. Yes. Right, right. Because it always stumps me when, We have these young people who are in college, and we have this field that's just open and looking for, for new minds and new innovation, but what ends up graduating and entering the mainstream GIS careers don't look like the Black Diaspora. Where do you think we're failing? Where do you think we're losing these young minds, these young Black minds? Well, so I, I always wondered that when I look at the students that come to Morgan that could be in economics, because we have very few folks who actually major in economics, they go into business, the business school, the business school is there. And so I always ask students, what is it about, you know, your attraction there? Well, I need to make money. So it's like I want my own business later, you know, those kinds of things. But I want to make money. They don't see how GIS could be a field that's profitable and, , lucrative career for them, because They're just, there's not enough of me around here to be able to show them that, yeah, there is this feel, this technological feel that, is open and really could use your, your, your creative mind and your, experiences that you bring to the table because Your lens is a lot different than the lens of creating a tool that somebody else is, and that's one of the things with AI, it's that, who's, who's actually developing, the base, the core of it? Well, the lens of people who, aren't like us. And so therefore they don't, they can't create that entity to, that AI component to be, more integrated or more diverse. So it's missing that. But, I mean, it's a great tool. I'm not trying to knock it. It's just, it's hard for us, it's like, My students are in a struggle mode, and just to, want to be able to just to breathe, not to really think beyond too much, is where I see a lot of my students. They just, they want to get the degree, and get the job. You know, it's, What has been in the past is what they see for themselves in the future. And so as many times as I can, I try to open up their minds to something. And, but there are a lot though, who go into STEM fields, like engineering and that sort of thing, but getting them into this technology is, has been. Because it hasn't been something that they're used to, they haven't been introduced to it. And when they, once they are, it's like the light goes off for them. Yes. Yes. It's almost like, what are we doing to, to promote? GIS as a career to our black and brown students, right? And it's where we're in this race with business and, engineering and other more popular, more glamorized STEM fields. And so, one of the reasons we wanted to, to bring North Star and the homecoming in particular to the forefront, and I'm so glad that we are able to do it in person, is so that we're able to get in front of these young people to say, GIS can look like you, right? You can be GIS, and let me explain to you what GIS is, right? GIS is. is at the intersection of geography and technology. GIS, it's a wide open field. I think, it's, it's one about promoting GIS as career options to our young people, but also how the field how the technology is kind of gatekept, right? Through language that we use through the stares that we sometimes get as being the only in a space. So when you talk about your conference experience, and I am you in my workplace. Whenever I see a black face, I am welcoming. I'm warm. I'm running up to you. I want to know who you are because you look like me. And so we're still at the age where. If you can see it, you can believe that you can be it and so by not having people who look like us, people from the, the African diaspora on these different stages being promoted, it doesn't look like this is an environment where we can thrive in or even exist in. minimally, and so I really think that's part of the motivation of why North Star does what it does to, to get in front of these young people. Because if we don't capture the future, what do you think is going to happen to the field of GIS? Right. Which is, you know, you asked me what was my passion about, it's being able to give this, this information or this. This way of thinking, this technology to the students, because I know that they're the ones that, we'll carry it on. And, and I believe that if I'm showing passion about it , and they have a trust in me that it's, it rubs off on them. And it's like, okay, because I've just seen it with my students who are in the labor econ. I mean, I've seen it before in some of the classes. That I teach, but just recently, I was like, you could see that click in their heads. Oh, yeah, this, this, this is a cool way of researching this and being able to show it spatially and showing where things are located and, and then to show, , tables as well as, whatever else. And it's different and it's like, Oh, okay. Refreshing. Yes. Yes. So on, on that note, so you spoke on the panel, you were discussing your work with Hegit. I had an opportunity to speak with Karee and she spoke about her experience working with people who are tenured in the GIS field, working with people who look like her. Can you tell me a little bit about Hegit and a little bit about the work that you do? And then does it fulfill you to be able to work with a young person who could be one of your students and take them on this GIS journey? Well, Karee is my former student. Okay, let's get that clear. She is, I brought her on. Yes, yes. To the, to the, to the HEJA team. So, yes. Yeah, so how, how does it feel? Oh, it's, it's, to me, it's It's a, it's a wonder. It's a wonder in the sense like, wow, I can, I can see, some of the way that I think about this in her when I hear her talk, it's like, yes, go, yeah, keep it up, keep it up, so yes but HEIJIT, grew out of connections with HBCU folks, folks who would be attending the UC in San Diego but this work of environmental justice, is really the spearheading of us coming together and the Biden initiative for Justice 40. So that kind of was The thing that brought us together, the fact that that was going on politically. So we were able to use our skills with GIS. And so it was just these folks who've been doing GIS. Me, David Paul Tony. We've been doing it for years. And it's, we have been the few. But we're ready to bring on others. And we have some other younger folks that we've brought on particularly because David has a lab in in his university. I don't have a lab here, but that's why I always. Figure out a way when I'm teaching an upper level economics class. How can I, bring in some GIS here? So this, this group, we, we just kind of like fell together in the environmental justice space and with David knowing Dr. Bullard from Texas Southern, and Dr. Beverly Wright from the Environmental Deep South Institute in Louisiana. That helped us to find that there is a need for what it is that we do and for folks to even explore more. And I, and I like being in the meetings with community folks because it's like they're ready. They're ready to take on the task too, not just, students, but here to see somebody really wanting to make changes or understand at least. Know that they can Layer the information of their area, their community to make broad statements. I like that aspect. Yes, yes. In my conversation with Curry, we were talking about how do you get work done? How do you get to the solutions of some of the most challenging problems well you give it to the people who are directly impacted? By not having those problems taken care of, our motivation is different. Our energy is different. And so there, there's a huge component of what we do with North Star and applying racial equity lenses that requires that we engage the community. And so, yeah, so so you work with young people. You've been in this field working with GIS for 21 years. What bit of advice would you give to a young person, a young Black person, a young Black woman who's considering a career in GIS or GeoSTEM fields or in academia? Well, I would say stay focused on the GIS aspect of it because if you if you start to See that you were you're the only one you can get kind of overwhelmed or maybe not are underwhelmed as to your, your worth. So if you, if you try to focus just in that space, at least for a while, until people come up to you and what your advice and want to, work with you more or understand that what you've created and done is really valuable, but in the beginning, I think it's. It's really good to stay focused on just the GIS, because I know when I get into spaces where there are a lot of folks who don't look like me, all of a sudden, I want to diminish myself, and so if if I'm paying attention to that, all of that around me. It doesn't help me to bring out the best of who and what I can do. And for that to happen, I think at least for a little while, younger folks, when they go out there, really stay focused on just the work, then slowly. Kind of melt into the rest of it. And that can be in academia and that can be in the Business world as well. To go into a space like Spatial GIS where Kendrick or you know something like that. But generally speaking, you go work, maybe say go working in the county office. Nah, you've got to just keep your abilities tight for a while and let them be within that space and then slowly let people come in and out and then once that starts to happen, I think you start not to see yourself as, being black in the white setting. You start to see that you're bringing this ability of doing GIS in this workspace. I like that. Staying focused because there could be a lot of distractions, good distractions, bad distractions that make you feel as if you don't belong, but you absolutely do belong, right? And I think that's one of the things that we wanted to do with North Star and the homecoming is to create these safe spaces, where you feel that sense of belonging, because I think that's part of what pushes a lot of diversity out of GIS and Geostem is this feeling of, everyone looking at you and, having to represent for an entire race of people and thinking that one mistake, can cast a cloud on an entire race, your entire career, right? We're not always given these soft landings or these opportunities just to, to be immersed in the science or the technology just to learn as anybody else. I think we've been talking around the issue of diversity and trying to get away from having our Black professionals be the only in situations. So part of North Star's mission is to increase Black representation in GeoSTEM fields. Why do you believe that this is essential? Why do you believe it's an important element in solving some of our biggest challenges? Well, it just happens that For me, GIS is this ubiquitous tool that is needed today to help make sure that we stay on this planet that we can survive on this planet. And so with that being the core of this. I see then that there are so many aspects. You know, interdisciplinary or inter acting agencies like government, like businesses, like, , academia that can help us understand the best way to come out of that, , COP 28 is going on right now, and, I'm not really sure if they're talking around what should be done or if they're really addressing. But it, it's the Earth planet. It's the, , the geography of where we are. And if we don't take control of it And if we don't use all the available minds that can help with it, we are going to miss out. We can't have just, one little spot on Earth that's, can survive and have no problems with climate because climate is not going to say, Oh, I'm going to miss you because you're so rich and you won't be affected. We will all be affected. And if we all don't come to the table, we're all going to miss out. And so, that's why it's so important, because North Star is there to help elevate and help folks of color know, yeah, we, we need to go to this table. We need to, and we can take this tool, this ubiquitous tool with us, to help us solve the problems. It's always been interesting, and I think it's been part of our history here in this country that We've always been welcoming, whereas we might not have been invited into other spaces, but we never really tried to systematically keep people out of our spaces, at least not until recently when we realized we need safe spaces. But when we talk about these types of conversations, conversations for issues that impact all of us as people. With hearts that are beating and blood that is pumping, we need every eye on these issues. And I really think that we're in this global quagmire that we're in because we push so much innovation and so many minds to the margins that now a few people are making these telescopic solutions to these global challenges. And we are stymieing. We're about to die out and not make it through climate change because we are So we are so invested in in the comfort of one people over millions of others, and it's so scary to think that if we don't open up this conversation, and if we don't bring people to the table to have this conversation. Like you said, it's, you know, if a flood is happening, it's not going to say, I'm going to spare this one house because the mortgage is paid off and it's got a pool and a tennis court. We're all going down the drain together. And so, so on that ominous note, if the zombie apocalypse were to happen today, Dr. Loubert, how would you use all of your GIS knowledge, your economic knowledge to survive? The apocalypse to survive, you know, that was one question that I, I, I did really particularly feel I could answer. However, if it did happen, I know that because of how I've been doing GIS, the fact that I have been trying to open up minds, bring others along and have this understanding of we're all in this together kind of attitude about it. I believe that, you know, we can, you know, we can discover how to deal with, some catastrophe that's going to happen. The apocalypse. We can, we can deal with it because we're not isolated in thought. Becoming together in thought helps to create. a condition that will solve whatever problem is facing us. So that becomes the key. Okay. Working together with the zombies. All right. Yeah. I mean, when you say, when you say that it's not that we don't have this kind of thing already. I mean, we don't call them zombies or anything like that, but we have these things that are trying to overtake us. And we can face them as a group, not so much as an individual. Here again, that's why it's important for someone like me in the teaching mode to make sure I'm bringing and inspiring minds to come along as well. Oh, see, I love that. I love that. That was, that was a perspective that we have not had yet to that, that question. So I love that. So is there anything else that you want to share with our listening audience? Well, I just, thought about, what key words that I think about for all of this is, for me, it's embrace technology, embrace GIS. All right, well, Dr. Loubert, thank you for joining me on the podcast today. And I look forward to continuing the conversation. And on that note, thank you to our listeners. I want to thank the sponsors of the 2023 Homecoming Conference event, which was held on Howard University's campus. Thank you National Geographic Society, National Academy's Gulf Research Program, Mapping Black California, Hope and Heal, and Spatial GIS. We also want to give a special thanks to our guests. Thank you. for trusting us with your stories. Shannon, Sandra, Kevin, Margo, Frank, Jen, Dr. Louberts, Karee, Dr. Graham, Gloria, Michael, Eric, Sky, Nick, Dr. Yoboa Kwakun, Veronique, and Dawn. We also want to thank Howard University for allowing us to present in the iconic browsing room and to the Northstar team. Thank you. Shakonda, Raisha, Clinton. Erica, Yolanda, and our volunteers and student ambassadors. Thank you also to KMG. Audio is produced by Cherry Blossom Production, and I'm Aisha, your host and the executive producer of the inaugural season of the North Star Gaze podcast, which is based on the 2023 Homecoming conference event. Thanks for listening to the North Star Gaze, intimate stories from geoluminaries. If you're inspired to advance racial justice in geofields, please share this podcast with other listeners in your community. The intro and outro are produced by Organized Sound Productions with original music created by Kid Bodega. The North Star Gaze is produced in large part by donations and sponsorship. To learn more about North Star GIS, Check us out at north star of gis.org and on Facebook or Instagram at GIS North Star. If you'd like to support this podcast and North Star of gis, consider donating at North star of gis.org/donate or to sponsor this podcast, email podcast at north star of gis.org. You've been listening to the North Star Gaze.