In this episode Aisha has a conversation with Dr. Tony Graham, a retired professor and GIS pioneer, discussing the importance of Historically Black Colleges and Universities (HBCUs), the challenges and significance of teaching GIS, and the future of GIS in promoting environmental justice.
In this episode Aisha has a conversation with Dr. Tony Graham, a retired professor and GIS pioneer, discussing the importance of Historically Black Colleges and Universities (HBCUs), the challenges and significance of teaching GIS, and the future of GIS in promoting environmental justice.
Be Black. Be Bold. Be Innovative. Show the World Equitable Geo. We're coming together as a collective to celebrate people of African descent, the diaspora, and talking about geospatial equity and justice. You're listening to The North Star Gaze, a podcast with intimate stories from geoluminaries. Hi everybody. I'm here today with Dr. Graham, and rather than me stumble over myself and introducing you, I've read your bio. I'm going to ask you to introduce yourself to our listening audience. Thank you so much. Thank you for inviting me and hello everyone. I'm Dr. Tony Graham, a retired professor in the Department of Built Environment at North Carolina A& T State University. I'm teaching in higher ed for about 18 years. I've been introducing young minds to GIS during those 18 years. I actually wrote the, curriculum for GIS at the Department of Built Environment and introduced it to our young minds and challenged our young minds throughout that time period of the use of GIS, the power of GIS. and how GIS can really open up more avenues than our students can ever think of. So, I was a pioneer in the GIS realm., my background is actually architecture and in engineering, civil engineering. So, that's my undergraduate degrees and my master's in architecture, my doctorate's in engineering. whEn I was doing my doctorate at Morgan State University, I ran across GIS during my lit reviews. And that was back in 2000, and come find out, I couldn't find out anything about GIS, and especially, I couldn't find anything about any of African Americans in GIS at that time. So I wrote my first paper using artificial neural networks in GIS to train the data sets so we could look at patterns and trends in our African American neighborhoods. In terms of what was affecting the populations in our communities. And I presented at my first ESRI conference was in 2000. And maybe I saw three African Americans at that conference. And since then I've been part of the geospatial sector. And that's pretty much me, you know. Okay, thank you for joining us here at the Homecoming. What drew you to the Homecoming this year? That's a very good question. I was actually invited by a colleague who's an economist at Morgan State who is doing environmental justice. And I'm a part of the Environmental Justice Technical Team. And I was invited to be on a panel at Howard. By my colleague, Dr. Linda Loubert at Morgan State that's how I got on. All right, well, good. I'm glad word is getting around. So I want to go back let's frame this around HBCUs at this juncture because you mentioned Morgan State, you mentioned North Carolina A& T. So let's talk about HBCUs. in a historical context and why they exist and why they're still important to this day. Oh, excellent. So, of course, I'm not an expert on HBCUs, but being an HBCU graduate and just about everybody in my family is First generation that is, have graduated from HBCU. And so that's by design because my generation, how would I say, getting to college sometimes wasn't on the radar, So in my case, Going to North Carolina A& T was on my parents radar versus my radar, and they knew the importance of getting a higher education, because my parents didn't get a higher education. And so Winston Salem State was next door from Winston Salem, North Carolina, and A& T was right down the street in Greensboro. But I knew I wanted to be an architect. Or an engineer. And those programs existed at A& T. So, from a historical perspective HBCUs have been the foundation of our higher ed for African Americans. And it's important that we continue that. So, I intentionally wanted all my degrees to be from an HBCU. And I've done that. So, my undergraduate is A& T, and my master's and my doctorate is that. And I introduced my children to the HBCU culture. It's important that we understand our culture. I was a Integration Segregation Experiment. So when I went through public schools, it was all Black until my ninth grade, then integration. So I was bused across town to two all white high schools, and it was an educational social experience which had its pluses and its minuses. So, from an educational perspective, I was not educated by my white instructors at those white public high schools that were integrated. And so it was a struggle. But when I got to A& T, I saw all of us. And all African American instructors and all of a sudden it was like, oh my goodness, , I've arrived, so if I had an issue I had an African American instructor right there. It's important for our people to have an HBCU. Period. I personally think that we should funnel our kids to an HBCU. And then funnel our kids to a PWI, it's the experience, it's the culture. Plus, to your point, we have to be very aware of Who is, who is instructing our kids and how they are instructing our kids from a cultural perspective, our instructors, our HBCU instructors. were the smartest people I have ever met in my entire life, and it made sense because they had to be in the forefront of the education curve so they can come and teach us. HBCU is not only important culturally speaking, but they're also important for educational component. But we need African American faculty and instructors at our HBCUs because the population is the African American population of our kids. So who better to educate and train our kids than us? Yeah, it's interesting that you say that because I grew up a child in the 80s. And so when I think about the supplementing that my parents did of my education. And Now, as I have come into adulthood and I'm working in predominantly white environments and I'm dealing with, the issue of race, right? And so you, you come here and you're dealing with white comfort and you're having these conversations about all the things that I grew up with historically knowing my black culture, my black history, and then I'm confronted with white comfort. And so are we doing a service or a disservice? In keeping white folks comfortable and keeping that history hidden, because then you end up in these situations where you're faced with the defensiveness because of their lack of knowledge, so I definitely agree with you. In fact, I did not go to an HBCU, but I'm fully leaning into the culture so much so that my kids. through North Star are being introduced to HBCU culture and so my kids HBCUs are on their radar. So my fingers are crossed that I do enough of putting them in these environments and through osmosis they gravitate toward an HBCU as either undergrad or grad or PhD program. So I'm fingers crossed on that but for right now my nine year old is engaged and my, my goal is to keep her engaged. So. In reading through your biography, you talk a little bit about some of the challenges in being a Black professor trying to teach GIS in systems or situations where you're an only. Can you talk a little bit more about what that means and the significance of that and some of the challenges? Absolutely. for that. Because, so GIS is a technology. It's a science as well. And it's a tool. So, you have to have an intellectual conversation, with faculty of like minds and like aspirations to move that needle in that particular space, talking about the GIS space. And so, you have to sell. Your department, an idea, if you would like to improve a curriculum and add new curriculum to an existing curriculum, that in itself is a challenge, So my idea was to take the GIS. And bring that to the forefront within our particular department. And to do that, you have to have a lot of conversation with your colleagues. Well, if your colleagues are of a different culture and background, that in itself is challenging. And so you then run into the collaboration challenge, if you're writing a research article, if you're writing a white paper or technical paper, you want to be able to include your colleagues across the spectrum, hopefully, so you can meet that challenge for that particular in this case, the GIS. So the challenge I had was one, I was one of few African Americans in the department. And I was the only one who understood GIS. So, and then you have to then kind of like see if it's a fit for other faculty in their particular areas of expertise. Well, that's a SAIL. Again, that's a SAIL, right? So, GIS is interdisciplinary. It applies to any discipline. And that's a SAIL as well. And so, being one of the only African American chaplain in the department, I have to establish a relationship, I have to, it's a chore. And so I'm at a disadvantage at an HBCU because I'm one of the few African American faculties in the department at an HBCU. And so now I'm having to defend and sell at an HBCU to, it's crazy. So my other colleagues, they didn't understand that cultural conversation piece, they would try their best. But at the end of the day, it wouldn't connect, so that's where I was getting at when you saw my, my insert about that challenge in dealing with being in a department with few African American faculty in it, because everybody's interest is different, and their biases are different, some are intentional, some are unintentional, for the most part, , they're unintentional. But in the long run, you still have to look at it because of the cultural environment you're in. So, when I spoke with Dr. Lubez earlier She mentioned how she experienced challenges with some of her students in Econ at Morgan, and that it was almost like a battle for getting students to work with GIS because the students, they wanted to graduate, they needed a job, and for them, a job was in engineering, or it was an MBA, business. So she talked about some of the challenges of getting. our young folks to shift into GeoSTEM, Geography, GIS, and so are you seeing some of those similar challenges? And if so, what were some ways that you navigated it? And did we capture souls, right? Did we pull people over into GIS? Excellent. So when I began to GIS to my young African American students, it was like, what in the world is this about? I'm not really, I'm really, I ain't have it. My challenge was not my students, my challenge was me, My challenge was, okay, let me think this thing through, right? What I did was recognizing that the paradigm shift was afloat. So I called it the Matrix Effect, the red peel, black peel, whatever the peel colors were, you know, so, I would literally challenge my students in class. I said, okay, here's this GIS thing. You don't know anything about it, I said, but how many of you go to the grocery store and buy something? Everybody raised their hand. I said, okay, you see that little bar thing on the back of that little product and I said, you scan it, right? They said, yeah. I said, you know, you just scanned your life away, right? Yeah. Yeah. They said, what are you talking about? I said, because on that little bar thing, when they scan it, it's giving them information. That information is saying, you are purchasing this for this price, and it's at this location. And its location is tied to some type of zip code, and that zip code is tied to some type of census tract and that census tract is tied to your address, and so now they are tracking you, quote unquote, the matrix now has captured you, and the data tells them your buying habits. Now, if you continue that same buying habit, that's a pattern. That pattern can be Analyze that pattern then is what advertiser how they sell you on the TV, the radio, whatever this and that, whatever that. I said, so everything you got in front of you right now has that little thing on it. And is tracking you. They were like, what? Okay. And so I was talking about GIS, but they really didn't know I was talking about GIS. You changed the language. I changed the language so that the language would fit my audience. Okay, you got sneakers on, everything is just coming from somewhere, So where is it coming from? How do you think it gets there, How do you know that gets from A to B when you order it and it gets there on time? I said, that's a business model. That's logistics. That's supply chain. That's the kind of thing that they use to make sure the product gets to where it gets to. I said, that's geospatial. I said, so now, then I twisted it. I said, okay, let me talk about the fundamentals of GIS. Point line polygons, databases, attributes, features, and all that stuff. And of course, that wasn't sinking in at all, So I'm like, okay, fine, no big deal, alright. Anybody ever stopped at a stop sign on the road, they say, yes. I said, okay, alright. So from a, from a scale perspective, that's a point on a map, alright. Alright. Now, depends on how far you zoom in on that map, you get to see that stop sign. I said, now that's geospatial as well, I said, so just think about this thing differently. Everything you do has an X, has a Y, it's got a Z coordinate on it. So then we go through all that kind of stuff, right? Now I got a conversation going on, But I haven't talked about, in their minds, GIS. So, so, so for Dr. Liberian, it's true. So, but I had to look at myself and I said, I need to change my language so my language would meet up with their language because their language is different. So you, answered two of the questions that I had. Well, one question and one statement the statement is around how the perceived race of a GIS professional and the language they use is a gatekeeping tactic, And so change the language, you open the door. So that's my one statement. And you arrived at that on your own. Also, my question was going to be, because I've had this challenge, how do I explain to my family and friends and just everyday people what I do, the technology that I work with? And. I usually just say, I make maps. Do you remember Enemy of the State? And all of those satellites that are moving, tracking you, capturing information, because language can sometimes keep people out. Language can sometimes keep it mystified, right? But it's demystifying. Where you're sitting is an X, Y coordinate location. If you put it in a 3D environment, you've got a Z value, right? so where can we pinpoint this person? You break down on the highway. How are the emergency vehicles going to find you? Right? Linear referencing, right? It's an alternative referencing system, So let's break down the language, set aside the language, let's not even call it GIS, right? Let's not even call it GIS, right? But let's talk about the thing that it actually is, and then tie that to the audience that you're speaking to. And then You've opened up an entire world of conversation. So one of the other things we talk about is that GIS has a diversity problem. Yes. So let's talk about that a little bit. Let's talk about this scene. What have you experienced? Have you seen an evolution in, the racial, the ethnic dynamics of GIS from the time you got introduced to it? Like I know I got introduced to GIS at Arcview 3 2. ARCHINFO7X, and I have seen an evolution of change and not in the positive direction. I've seen it actually devolve into less diverse. So let's talk about that. Let's talk about that. I had to attack that problem from several, ways as a faculty in the classroom. I had this thing. You want a career or you want a job? A job, you can go out and work at McDonald's. A career, though, is a different matter. so now let's talk about careers. Let's talk about geospatial careers. I used to work in the federal government. I used to work with the Army Corps of Engineers. I used to work in private industry and I used to work in firms that use GIS and federal agencies that use GIS. So I had a heads up. So when I got into academia, I recognized that disconnect. So what I did was intentionally, I would steer my students. So that they will understand that there's a career in GIS, and here is where it is at, Army Corps of Engineers, one of the largest in the world in terms of how horizontal border construction, they map everything, and they need people who understand all that. we don't have it. The institution I was at, a degree in GIS. So, but you have the skillset now, how do we address that? So I have this intention to get my students involved in where the geospatial careers are, and now how do I get them in there? Cause that's two different things, right? So I had to then intentionally had to go to that next step. So. Throughout the academic year, I'm also talking about careers in GIS in my classroom, but I'm showing where to go to get in the field of GIS, because, again, it's interdisciplinary, so that was another sale. So, diversity wise, we're few and far between in the first place in this field of things, so that's, given, so now it's up to us, when I say us, African American FAPT, To be able to introduce to our feeder system, which are African American kids, into these STEM areas. It's one thing to teach them in the classroom, but if you just drop it, our students don't know where to go. Our students parents don't know where to go. They don't know how to, not that they don't want to. So I was intentional. I was like, okay, here, USAJOBS. gov. There you go. All right. It's very federal agency in the country. That's how you get into federal system. Now, once you get into that, you drill down, you have to put your resume together. You have to say keywords such as geospatial, GIS, so that the system would pick that up out of the resume and then they would start it. So, you have to understand the other piece that I put in was the intelligence community. If you are in the intelligence community, there's a world that you never knew about before. You can enter that portal as a student as well. I point my students to the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency. I'm sure you're familiar with them. It's so like, here's another portal. It's an interdisciplinary agency. They take all disciplines and they introduce you. They retrain you to use all of that geospatial as well as your own discipline knowledge and move that into a career field. So students were like, what? And so again, one solution doesn't fit all, but we have to all be intentional how we guide, instruct, feed. Our students, our kids, get them to an HBCU with this program, get them an HBCU that has a strong African American faculty, because those are the ones who are going to be intentional in making sure our kids succeed, introduce our kids to career pathways. But not just introduce them, but actually walk that path all the way through, right? So I got some great success stories from kids, who never thought about GIS, you know, and Dobbin Thompson is one of them. Call him out. He took my intro to GIS class. He's first generation and he was scared to death about GIS, right? Once he took the class and he said, I like this, He's slowly picked it up. Boom, bam. He was like off to the races. Boom. And he actually undermines tutelage. Got into NGA, and he's been all over the world ever since. LaShia Levins is another one of my students. Same kind of situation, right? Didn't know anything about it. I was intentional. It's a slow process. So I have a lot of those students because A& T does not have a GIS system. Program curriculum, but my students are technologists from science community. So I introduced that into the classroom. I understood. The only way I'm going to change this diversity thing is I have to get my students in these agencies, get them in these organizations, and let them know that when you go there now, you're going to be the best at coming in there with this GIS. So you ain't coming in there with no understanding of it. So my, my way of handling that was challenging my students from a geospatial perspective that they had never seen before. So it was like when they finished my project in my class. They actually had to have an appendix of the project in the back of that book, and it was a step by step by step appendix. How did you do this project using that Geospatial software, whichever one you selected to use for your project? And they had to produce it, and they had to put it on a CD, and that was a part of their final project for that semester. Now, they fought me up against it, of course. Because again, they couldn't see the light at the end of the tunnel, which we'd all been there, when they went into that office, and they were put on that team to develop a geospatial project. It was, no competition. And so that's how we have to treat this thing. we have to treat it such, and I get it, Dr. LaBerge ain't the only one saying the same thing. We say all of it. All the academics say the same thing. I think it's a generational shift as well. And so it is almost like you said, the perspective has to change. We are trying to attract. GIS, right? It's not that we're saying, here, go this way, because we want them to come willingly and see the opportunities because we need their minds, right? We need, them in the room making policy maps. We need them in the room making decisions, right? And so it is, how do we attract The innovators, the future innovators into, GIS, GeoSTEM careers, And so I think you have to shift it that we need them. They got options. They have all these other fields. They have all of these other career paths that they can go on that are probably going to be much easier. How do we attract them? got to get them early. We got to get them early. In middle school, not to do anything but bring some projects that we have worked on, and then be able to have a workshop of a simple project they could do outside somewhere with a unit in their hand, and they can capture it. It's as simple as that. David Padgett down at Tennessee State is a master at working with kids at that level, and the imagination kicks in at that point. then follow up. We have to follow up. With Northstar GIS. I'm so geeked about this organization. So what Northstar is offering has never been there before. We've always had to have some other entity fighting that battle for us But now, a non profit, Northstar GIS, it's a game changer. Right. So Dr. Graham, when you were on stage with dr. Lubert Kare, you were all talking about your Hi JT program. Can you tell me a little bit about Hett and the applications that are coming up on Bloomberg? Tell me about it. Okay, so just is HBCU, environmental Justice Technical Teams comprised of. Geospatial researchers and scientists at HBCUs from Charles Drew University in Los Angeles, Tennessee State, North Carolina A& T, Morgan State, Texas Southern University, and for years headed by David Padgett down at Tennessee State. And have been working behind the scenes with the Deep South Center at Texas Southern University, Dr. Bottle and Dr. Wright, and introducing environmental justice. to our communities who are impacted by a lot of environmental issues from health to transportation to everything in between. And so how to introduce that into the communities was the task. And so no vehicle existed, still doesn't. So we were tasked through Dr. Patches to create a model called the EJ tracking tool, which is a spinoff from the EPA tracking tool, which didn't really track anything. Right. So now we created our EJ tool from our technical team to improve it so we could track what's happening in our communities that are making our communities sick. And we can track the funding that's coming from the The federal government in terms of the Biden administration and all that money is going into the infrastructure and to they call it justice 40 funding. Okay, right. So where's that money going and how it's impacting our communities? No one knows. So we are that group that is doing that under the direction of Dr. Bolland, Dr. Wright down at the Deep South Center. So that's how we kind of come together. So we are economists, we're engineers, geographers, we're health people. And again, GIS, Interdisciplinary, that makes sense. And we're a technical team, so we can come in, we're like, we're like the 911 responders. But from an environmental justice perspective, so the community will call us up and we will go in and we will map, we'll take the data, we'll collect the data, we'll map the data, we'll give it back to the community so they can then move forward with the solutions that they need to improve those communities, which are mostly African American, low income, low to moderate income communities. Nice. Thank you for that. Okay, so based on the work that you're doing with the HEGIT team, what does the future of GIS look like to you from your perspective? That's a tough question. It depends. A lot on who's driving the engine. So GIS could be that tool that's a game changer in everything we do. let me explain. Most of the times, from what I've seen, we react, we don't, we aren't proactive. So GIS could be that proactive tool. We get ahead of it. We can see the trends. GIS in the future is that game changer that can gather the necessary information and present it accurately. GIS can change that narrative. It can be put in the hands of our communities. I'm a, I'm a firm believer that grassroots is the way you change society. You don't change society from the top down. My mom was a non profit director for I don't know how many years. I saw her change our community from the grassroots up, that's how it's done. I can imagine my mom having GIS at her disposal. Oh my goodness, so we need moving in the future to develop the access of GIS to our community, mm hmm, okay. All right, and so, so who are you following? On social media in terms of GeoSTEM, in terms of innovation? Wow. Top three. Top three. Okay. Top three. Top three. I peek on social media. Okay. I am a science fiction nerd. Anything has to do with anything in outer space. Anything has to do with anything in the ocean. Anything has to do anything with the, planet. My favorite stuff is all about nature. Planet this, planet that. You know, talking about the zebras and the tigers and my favorite, how it's made. Yes, my daughter likes it. I love that program. And for me, it makes sense because it's all around science and technology because, how do you make things? Yeah. Okay, so, last question. So, if you were to use your vast knowledge of GIS, Skills, Engineering Skills, Geostem. If the zombie apocalypse were to happen right now, how would you go about surviving it? I live in the Piedmont tribe in North Carolina, alright. I was told this years ago when I was working on my masters. My instructor, George Worthy, bless his soul, is that, well, was an urban and regional planner. And he said, look at if the ice poles melted. And what you just said, the apocalypse was to come, where would you want to live? It's so funny you brought that up. He said the Piedmont Triad. Now I grew up in the Piedmont Triad, right? And I'm like, that makes no sense, right? So I looked at it and guess what? He's right. So when that does occur, we're in an area that it'll survive that. And it's funny. Yeah, it's funny. And I was telling my wife and my kids the other day, I said, y'all better stay in the Piedmont Triad because when this thing jumps off, right, you know, that water's gonna come, right, and that earthquake's gonna crack stuff open and all this kind of stuff. So, so the Piedmont Triad. That's where we wanna be at, right? Mm-Hmm.. And, and that's pretty much, you know, the Acropolis for me.. Okay.. The, we gonna, the zombies are gonna come to Piedmont Triangle and have a piece.. Yeah. Come to the Piedmont Tri. That's where we're gonna be at. That's right. Well, Dr. Graham, thank you so much for joining me on The Gaze Podcast, and where can our listeners find you? If they want to engage you for speaking engagements, follow your research, where can they find you? DrGrahamSpeaks. com. That's my website. And thank you so much. I look forward to the next segment. You did awesome. Thank you. And on that note, thank you to our listeners. I want to thank the sponsors of the 2023 Homecoming Conference event, which was held on Howard University's campus. Thank you National Geographic Society, National Academy's Gulf Research Program, Mapping Black California, Hope and Heal, and Spatial GIS. We also want to give a special thanks to our guests. Thank you. for trusting us with your stories. Shannon, Sandra, Kevin, Margo, Frank, Jen, Dr. Louberts, Karee, Dr. Graham, Gloria, Michael, Eric, Sky, Nick, Dr. Yoboa Kwakun, Veronique, and Dawn. We also want to thank Howard University for allowing us to present in the iconic browsing room and to the Northstar team. Thank you. Shakonda, Raisha, Clinton. Erica, Yolanda, and our volunteers and student ambassadors. Thank you also to KMG. Audio is produced by Cherry Blossom Production, and I'm Aisha, your host and the executive producer of the inaugural season of the North Star Gaze podcast, which is based on the 2023 Homecoming conference event. Thanks for listening to the North Star Gaze, intimate stories from geoluminaries. If you're inspired to advance racial justice in geofields, please share this podcast with other listeners in your community. The intro and outro are produced by Organized Sound Productions with original music created by Kid Bodega. The North Star Gaze is produced in large part by donations and sponsorship. To learn more about North Star GIS, Check us out at north star of gis.org and on Facebook or Instagram at GIS North Star. If you'd like to support this podcast and North Star of gis, consider donating at North star of gis.org/donate or to sponsor this podcast, email podcast at north star of gis.org. You've been listening to the North Star Gaze.