Mindset - Being the Real Me with Gary Lane

In this episode of the Stay Hungry Podcast, Joel sat down with Gary Lane, a business owner and therapist who turned personal struggles into a mission to help others. But his journey wasn’t straightforward. From growing up in an environment where he felt he had to constantly adapt to fit in to building a business in Spain and burning out, Gary’s story is a raw and powerful lesson in resilience, self-awareness, and redefining success.

After years of chasing external validation, Gary hit rock bottom, leaving everything behind to start over in the UK. What followed was a complete transformation that led him to understand the deep connection between emotional regulation, business performance, and mental health. Now, he works with high-achieving business owners, helping them break free from burnout, master their mindset, and create success on their own terms.

We dive into:

• The hidden cost of constantly proving yourself – why so many entrepreneurs burn out chasing the wrong goals.

• Why your nervous system controls more of your business decisions than you think – and how to use it to your advantage.

• The real reason business owners struggle with work-life balance – and how to fix it without sacrificing growth.

• How creating boundaries in business leads to more freedom, not less.

• The power of fun, curiosity, and self-discovery – and why it’s the key to long-term success.

Packed with personal insights, practical strategies, and eye-opening lessons, this episode is essential listening for business owners ready to stop surviving and start thriving.

Listen now!

Links:

Website: https://www.codebreak.co.uk
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/codebreakcrew/
Facebook: https://facebook.com/codebreakcrew/

Joel's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/joelstoneofficial/
Joel's Facebook: https://facebook.com/joelstoneofficial/

Free Marketing Budget Calculator: https://codebreak.outgrow.us/knowyournumbers

Arrange a call with Codebreak: https://form.jotform.com/241272835208051

Transcript

0:13

Gary Lane in the building. Welcome to the Stay Hungry podcast. Thank you, mate. We are talking about being the real me why might this episode be called that? Because I think for me, I have spent a large chunk of my life not okay, being me fitting in, trying to fit in trying to be somebody that I perceive that other people want me to be. And I think that came from very early on in life where I needed to be someone to fit in. And when you say early life, what did early life look like childhood as a child, I guess so early life for me was what my we were quite affluent. So we lived in the country. Quite isolated. Yeah. Big house in the country, that kind of thing. Dad had a quite a big, big butchery business. Yeah. So he was at work a lot. Mom had a lot of mental health issues. She was sectioned a lot as a child. Okay. So as you know, so that kind of had an impact on me. Was there a sort of stigma around that then? Yeah, and I guess Yeah, and you know, I was kind of sent here, there and everywhere like while she was recovering, recovering, but also I guess, you know, she really struggled a lot. So you know, I had to be very quiet and yeah, tidy. Yeah. That kind of thing. And I guess, my dad didn't have a lot of capacity for that either. Yeah, sure. He's stressed with work. She's stressed with her mental health. So it was very much from a very early age. And then, you know, brothers and sisters, younger sister. Yeah. And then from an early age, after they split up, I was sent to boarding school. Okay. So that was interesting. All boys boarding school, I found it really tough to begin with. First year, especially fitting in there. I think probably because living out in the countryside, and having a free reign, I was pretty feral, to be fair. Yeah, yeah. I mean, so like, to then come into an environment where it was very strict, very kind of regimented, regimented, I really struggled with it. And then I found sport, which was kind of a little bit of a get out of academia, a little bit. Yeah, yeah. So what sport are we talking at this time? Rugby. Yep. Athletics, cricket, hockey, swimming. Everything. Yeah. The whole lot. That was an outlet, I guess. It was an outlet for me. Yeah, because I really struggled academically, to kind of focus, you know, probably along the, I know it's very topical, but along the ADHD route, I guess. Probably a bit of autism slung in there as well, I think. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I found it very hard to, you know, I just wasn't interested in it. I wasn't interested in being inside and learning. I just wanted to be outside because that was my experience growing up, like just being wandering around farmers fields and... Yeah, yeah, going wherever you want, sort of thing. Yeah, being out in the middle of nowhere, so... And burning energy, I guess. Yeah. And I suppose, like, because when I was at school, ADHD wasn't a thing. They were just about starting to talk about ADD when I left school. So how did the teachers treat you then? Um, so before sport, the first year, harsh. Yeah, I got wrapped across the knuckles quite a lot with rulers and board rubbers thrown at me, and like the cane a few times. But then once I discovered, once like, you know, the sport kind of kicked in, I was, I was pretty much given a free rein to do what I wanted. And how did that transition happen? Because they must have twigged, oh, this guy's good at sport. Yeah. Did that give you a bit of breathing room academically? It gave me like a massive amount of breathing room academically. Yeah, I was pretty much, yeah, they'd let me get on with it really. Because I was captain. And like the first year we won, we won the Surrey Cup final. Okay. So like it brought some kind of spotlight on the school and that kind of thing. So yeah. Yeah, it gave me a little bit of just going, yeah, kind of. And I guess they could see that you were applying yourself there. So it wasn't a lack of application in the classroom if something wasn't right or such. Yeah, yeah. Okay. And how did, how did the feeling of not quite fitting in come into this? So I guess I've always felt like I was on the outside looking in. So like, it was that like, constant berating at home, you know, being told off all the time, or a sense of being told off all the time, I had to behave in a certain way. You know, and they were obviously struggling parents. So, you know. And then, you know, when I went to school, it was exactly the same thing. Like, you know, the first year I really struggled. But once I found the sport, then I was alright. You know, so then as long as I excelled in sport, I was accepted. Yeah. And that just translated for any, like all of my life, you know, and it was exhausting. Okay. To constantly work out what other people, what I perceived other people wanted from me. Yeah. So, so I guess you learn quite quickly, people want me to be good at sport. Yeah. So if I do that, I'm accepted. Yeah. But then there's a sense of that isn't your personality. That's just your ability. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and that was it. It was always, they're not seeing who I am. You know, so then I kind of took on this larger than life character. Yeah. This persona that kind of got me through probably another decade and a half. You know, after the school, you know, this just larger than life character, you know, that was kind of, you know, this, you know, I guess, stereotypical male, you know, yeah. And, you know, quite hard drinking that kind of thing. You know, and it was just kind of eating me up inside. It was like, it was literally, like I was playing somebody else. And it was just, I've heard like a few people kind of talk about it you know like musicians or actors or that kind of thing you know or even you know sports people you know where they take on this persona and like you know and it was really starting to impact my mental health. Two marriages and I was just kind of trying to do anything really just to escape. And what did those mental health symptoms present as? What did that look like? Hard-working, shut down emotionally. Yeah. Dysregulated a lot of the time, overwhelmed. Kind of yeah just any kind of emotional triggers just found it really hard to kind of just regulate. I think like a lot of Alistair's are business owners and they'll really relate to that that feeling of like going through school and feeling like an in-between and not quite like being able to mould yourself to fit into different crowds but not ever feeling like you're being truly you. Yeah. And then coming into life and sort of going all guns blazing hell for leather to prove yourself to everyone. Yeah. And then just knackering yourself out basically. Yeah. So what was the change? What made you think I've got to do something about this? So I remember my second marriage had just ended. We were living in Spain at the time and she moved back to England with the kids. I remember being on my own. Had a business, quite a successful business out there actually. So what was that? Kitchen fitting. Okay. But I was literally like getting smashed every other day. You know just out drinking as late as I possibly could. Which is easy to do in Spain. Really easy to do. Really easy to do. Because you don't start drinking till midnight. Exactly. So again I fitted in really well. Yeah. And it was like one on one off, one on one off and that kind of went on for about seven months and then I was just so burnt out. And I just got to the point where I'm like I've just had enough of this and I kind of got all my energy together and it was like it was either I was either gonna take my own life or I just knew that I had to get back to England. So I just grabbed my clothes, put them in a bin bag, jumped in a car. The car was literally like it was you know it wasn't even road worthy really. Got back to England and it just got worse. I was just you know I was just so volatile all the time. And something happened like my my ex-wife she moved abroad again and she took the kids with her and about three weeks after they left my son said to me he said can I move back. Mm-hmm. And then my youngest was five at the time and he brought her back for the weekend and she never went back. So I was kind of found myself as a full-time dad with a job that you know wasn't fit for purpose for looking after a five-year-old. Behaviour that wasn't fit for purpose looking after a five-year-old. I didn't even have anywhere to live. I was living in a house yeah so like I've got a house pretty sharpish and then kind of once I'd settled down I was like right what do I want to do? What am I gonna do? So I saw an advert on the TV for becoming a driving instructor. Okay. So like I was like right when I did that so I could fit in around school and then I found myself with a lot of time on my hands and I just knew that I wanted to help someone. I just wanted to help people. I just wanted to I knew that what I was doing wasn't wasn't me. I wanted to be something else. I was too scared to be able to show people who I was. And then I just went to college and I did it was like a like an idiot's guide to counselling, social care like all kind of mixed into one and the counselling kind of appealed to me so then I started that journey and then I started volunteering at Derby Youth Offending Service and I just fell in love with it. Like working with young people. Yeah. And then it just started growing from there. So I guess like that's opened your eyes to understanding yourself as well but I guess a youth offending service too also you heard some stories. Yeah yeah. So what would be like an example of things you heard that made you realise you're not on your own kind of thing? So yeah just kids in care really you know or kids that have grown up in families where you know it's a lot of chaos, you know dysfunctional, a lot of abuse and I after a few months I was offered a part-time role and it was kind of it was delivering like a young person's form of community service and within a year I had the best attendance in the country. Right. And like they was like what's the model and I'm like it's me because what what I'm doing is I'm spending time with these young people and I'm kind of before you know they once they've got their orders and I'm just connecting with them so they're attending. Yeah yeah. And then it just kind of grew from there really like so I was developing relationships like meaningful relationships with young people and they were just showing up so then like I was getting invited to kind of like work with work with them as a support worker and I kind of went on to qualify as a therapist and it was then that's where the real me kind of was born. Yeah so for the listeners what's the real me? So the real me is around I guess I've moved it on a little bit it's like almost that relentless pursuit of authenticity and it for me it gets bandied about quite a bit that word authenticity. Yeah it's a dirty word now Yeah it is but for me it's about trying to be embracing your vulnerabilities I guess. Yeah. In a way where you know you can there's an of self in that, isn't it? I find that I'm like, I mean, you've seen me present and seen like, I'd certainly come across as like a confident bloke. I'm very happy to talk about my flaws and my vulnerabilities. That's only a recent thing in the last couple of years. And it's made me feel so much more powerful. Just as a human, like you can't hurt me because I know what's wrong with me. And I'm really comfortable with what's wrong with me. And I don't even see it as wrong anymore. Someone said to me the other day, me and you have had quite similar upbringings. I had a father with severe mental health issues. My mum worked four jobs to put food on the table, a lot of stress. And someone said to me, would you change it? No, I wouldn't change a thing. No, I wouldn't, no. And they were like, what do you mean? Like you've had a lot of trauma and some pretty, you know, I wouldn't change it. Like, this is what's made me, me. And I'm comfortable with who I am now. And I think, you know, looking at, for me, like there was a breakthrough. Like I was, you know, even on that journey, and this is kind of like, still there's a lot of a shame attached to this. Like even on like when I was, you know, even when I qualified as a therapist, I was still drinking, you know, not heavily, but like I was still drinking to excess. Yeah. Still using Coke at times, you know? And it wasn't until when I was working in fostering and adoption that there was some training that came up around working with the nervous system. And I hadn't really kind of, I didn't really know a lot about it. And I embarked on three years worth of training, understanding the impact of trauma in the nervous system. And a combination of that and working with Paul on mindset was like, wow, this is it. Of it, the kind of the golden ticket. Yeah, the nail on the head kind of thing. Yeah, it's like, you know, to be able to understand the impacts of trauma on your particular nervous system and how that kind of works was really eye-opening for me. Yeah, and started to explain the volatility of your behavior. I say this to my wife, actually. Like my temperament is either a one or a two out of 10 or a 10 out of 10. There's no scale of like, oh, he's getting pissed off at you. I just go from chill to fucking furious. And she was like, where does that come from? And it's like, because when something little happens, I react to it in the same way as something terrible happening because of trauma response. And now she knows, I mean, I've never done it to her, but now she knows that she understands me better. And I think for me, there is like, it's called somatic experiencing. So in SE, a lot of the work is around expansion of your capacity. So working on that edge of resistance, whatever that looks like for you. So wherever the threat, like the line of the threat response is, continually working on the edge of that so you're increasing your capacity. Like if your capacity is shrunk, then everything becomes a threat, doesn't it? So like it's, you know, we think like we've got a saber tooth tiger following us around all day long, or a pack of wolves just parked outside our cave. Yeah, yeah. So like the more we can, the more resilience and the more capacity we have for discomfort, pain, then, you know, fear, it's fear actually, but fear, then terror, then ultimately it's annihilation. Yes. So annihilation. Like a catastrophe, yeah. Yeah, annihilation is the feeling that babies have when they're born. That's the reason why they scream as if they're gonna die. Because if they didn't, they would, wouldn't they? Yeah. If a baby just went like that, you wouldn't feed it. But if that's not nurtured and soothed as a child, then we can experience that kind of overwhelming feeling of annihilation. Yeah. Like it's in us, isn't it? It's implicit, it's like. And do you think, because this is really interesting from a business owner standpoint, business owners that have experienced trauma, stress and stuff have a tremendous capacity for stress. Yeah. So they can work really fucking hard for long spells, but they have a really shit capacity for anything outside of that. Yeah. And that sounds like kind of what you're describing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So like the men that I work with are generally all in that bracket. Yeah. And they are businessmen that are burnt out. Like whether you want to put it under the lid of ADHD or develop, I'm probably going to get hammered here, but developmental trauma, they're virtually identical. The traits are virtually identical. You can't. If you meet somebody with PTSD, they present as distracted and unable to focus. Yeah, which is how I was. Like that's a lot of the time. And so the businessmen that I work with inside of my program, the first thing that I do is get them to understand their nervous system. Yeah. So they can start to integrate some kind of regulation into it. And then when you use the other pillars of like creating a compelling future, so then that works on other aspects of their life and also the mindset, because whatever or wherever our focus is, our nervous system will react to it. Yeah. Do you know, like our nervous systems don't understand the difference between the saber-toothed tiger following us around and getting a shitty email. Yeah. Or the pressure of like having to deliver that day or whatever it is. Yeah, yeah. And it's different for every person. Absolutely, yeah. So on a simple level, what's like a mechanism for being aware of your nervous system? That's a great question because that kind of fits into two categories. So if you think about fear, which is what that is, like the threat response is fear. Yeah. If you imagine we are hanging out outside our cave and then you hear a twig snap behind us, you wouldn't automatically do that, would you? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fuck, what's that? So it's tension, bracing, tension. So wherever we feel tight, heart rate increase, that kind of stuff. A lot of people with gut issues, their nervous systems are stuck on. Yeah. So like they're in fight or flight all the time, so it's like the adrenaline, the cortisol is flushing through the body. And then the irony is that the body becomes physically addicted to that. Stress response. To the stress response. You see that so much. I've been that person so I became single in my 20s and it was my mum that spotted but my dating history was terrible because I would date people that would cause carnage and it was like a pattern and my mum at the time said why don't you just date someone who's like chill and it wasn't that I thought they were boring I just gravitated towards the stress yeah and then it took a lot to undo that yeah it would do because like your body becomes so if you've got like the camera there if you've got like that's a healthy normal baseline yeah yeah if you're stuck in fight-or-flight there's your baseline up there so as soon as you sit down or relax the parasympathetic part of the nervous system the break of the nervous system springs it down too much of a drop so it's uncomfortable so it's uncomfortable so then the brain automatically goes fuck we need some chaos here like you know or so people get distracted with their phones or then they just go and find some chaos yeah before it like some people it's phones drugs alcohol yeah from food yeah for me it was food a little but mostly finding situations I didn't need to be here yeah that's it yeah so it's about so the regulations part is we it twofold we have to very slowly because like if you want to the most basic I guess narrative for trauma is anything that the nervous system perceives as anything that's too much too soon or too quick yeah which is subjective of course so and you can change that response yes yes so therefore and that's why you know people that you know that do tasks in business or whatever it is or you know January you know whatever you know they're gonna set massive goals and they so they doesn't so then as soon as the universe froze a boulder and they nervous system just goes whoa yeah they stopped doing it so it's about being able to kind of start to regulate the nervous system once you feel in your body like it's a somatic thing isn't it's in the body so therefore you know you you know even just spending a minute just sat here breathing or just looking at you know what's around you problem is like the other the flip side of that is if someone's in freeze yes so they haven't got they haven't got an experience of what it feels like which is where I was a lot of the time okay and what does that look like so that looks like dissociation yeah it looks like you know just disconnect people pleasing yeah so appeasing is part of freeze so appeasing is where fight-or-flight is not an option so it comes from a very early place where you know you can't run you can't fight so therefore you appease as long as I make sure you're okay then I'm gonna be okay yeah but from a place of where it's not kind or compassionate it's out of necessity so I'm gonna lose who I am to make sure you're okay which is where the the the real me that's where that you adapt to being somebody else so this will ruffle a few feathers do you meet a lot of business owners that are actually in business to keep other people happy yeah yeah absolutely I would say most of the sorry gentlemen most of the gents on my on my on my program would say that they are people pleases yeah peas which is one of the reasons why they get on so well in business because they like they've they know good job they know what yeah but unfortunately for them it just burns them out so they're in this repetitive cycle of like foot to the floor you know yeah doing really well in business and then burning out and then it's that whole like well if you're a people pleaser they get home around the dinner table if you're a people pleaser why you're such an arsehole at home yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah so there's that it's so it's like it's it's about creating healthier boundaries but to answer your question about freeze it's about noticing patterns like it all becomes self-aware so like if you you may need some professional help with this but it's about understanding yourself like so then yeah what can you how can you start to you know can you feel your heartbeat mmm can you just kind of feel anything like you know like any kind of so you know I don't know massage or or whatever but then it like about trying to so you you can't think your way out of depression or you can't think your way out of freeze you have to move your way out of mmm so then it's again too much too soon too quick okay so what can you do what are the baby steps yeah so if you can't so then you know from the brain's point of view you know starts coming up with a narrative that overwhelms the nervous system so it's like okay so what can you do just small small small just keep breaking it down breaking it down breaking it down breaking it down. So my therapist when I was in a real bad place the first thing they got me to do was when I was making a cup of tea was to listen to the kettle boil yeah because they were like that'll be the only moment in the day where you're fully present yeah if you can practice that which is you know two minutes max once you can do that for two minutes maybe you can move on to watching a 20-minute TV show without doing anything else yeah once you can do that maybe you go for a walk with the dog for 45 minutes and not have headphones in yeah and it was actually mind-blowing how difficult it was to just stand there and listen to the kettle boil yeah hard on it just for two minutes yeah like when I that's the invitation that I generally give people is to set a timer on their phone for a minute yeah and just sit there for a minute I'm too fucking busy for that I'm like for a minute yeah you can't spare me a minute yeah yeah I had a conversation with somebody and you know everything was too busy to do everything he was so burnt out and I said to him okay so the invitation is for you to take half day and go and go for a walk in the Peak District and if your business falls down I'll refund you everything that you've given me yeah do you know and it was and it was that moment he went for a walk and then he was like actually you know just got really bad boundaries hmm and that what does that look like because I'll be doing everything yeah so like you know every every small tiny intricate piece of their business they're doing everything in it they're answering the phone they're being the secretary they're being you know and they're stuck have asked some questions all the time. So it's again it's a people-pleasing thing isn't it? Yeah and I think it's a double-edged, certainly speaking for myself, you've got that people-pleasing to appease but you've also got that catastrophizing fear of it all going wrong if you don't do that and those two things combined make you very successful but also kill you basically. Yeah yeah and I think one of the things that I kind of really kind of, I talk a lot about this, you have to look at your nervous system from from a lens of two million years ago. Yeah. Because it hasn't changed. Yeah. We're not sitting here are we? So if you think about, if you're stuck in fight-or-flight, okay, fear of that is a threat to life. Yeah. What's the one thing that you can't do, intrinsically, when you're in fight-or-flight? Can't stop can you? Because if you stop or slow down the consequences of that are you're gonna die. Yeah. So that's hence the reason why people generally when they are edging towards burnout or burnout they pick more stuff up. Yes. And need to keep going isn't it? That's what burnout, you know when you reach burnout, I've reached it loads of times. Yeah. It's like I've just got to keep going, just got to keep going, just got to keep going, just got to keep going. But what actually what you need to do is you need to start unplugging some stuff don't you? Letting some stuff go. Which you're terrified to do. Which is terrifying to do because your nervous system is screaming at you, if you do that you're gonna get eaten. Yeah. So how does someone, because I know for me I had to disassociate my personality from my thoughts, that was a big thing to realise that my thoughts aren't me. Yes. And then my thoughts were a psychological representation of my nervous system I would say. Yes. And now I've learned not to trust that. But how does someone do that? Because like for me I think I had to learn the hard way. Yeah. I don't want everyone to have to do that. Yeah, and I think I would be curious, like I look at it through it like instead of looking it through a critical lens, look at it for a curious lens. Yeah. And just be curious about that. Like what is that thought? Because it's a thought at the end of the day and we and like we become attached almost like from an identity point of view don't we? Like this is who I am. Yeah, this is my voice. Yeah, actually it's not is it? Do you know like you know you know we we talk about limited beliefs and that kind of thing and challenging those limited beliefs. But actually to sit down and do that, to challenge them do you know? Because you know well it's just who I am. I hear that all the time. Well actually it's not is it? Like what is that? No, what is that? Because that's a perception. I've got this, I've got this at home at the moment and certainly I've never criticised my wife on this podcast and I never will. But she doesn't have trauma in the same way I do. She's had things happen in her life but she's going through a career change at the minute and she's a little bit fearful of rejection with applying for jobs and stuff and I'm giving her a nudge and she said to me one day, it's just who I am. I'm quite triggered by that statement. And it's really interesting when like you know you meet other people in business, well this is me, this is who I am. And to be honest when I've met people in business and they've said this is who I am, that's a red flag of like oh you're probably a dickhead and you use this is who I am as an excuse. Yeah, yeah. My wife's certainly not a dickhead. But how do you challenge, because that is a limiting belief in itself, how do you challenge that? So I would look at, I would just challenge that. So tell me, I'm curious about that, tell me about that. What do you believe, like what is it that you believe that you are? Yeah. And then like look at different like, so can you give me a time when that wasn't true? Yeah. Can you show me that? Can you, no, give me an example of that, when that what didn't happen. Because society at the moment in particular is massively telling us you have to be black or you have to be white, you have to be right, you have to be wrong. Everything's very polarised, you know, like you're right wing, you're left wing, whatever it might be. But obviously the truth is grey, it's all in the middle. Yeah. So how does someone who's being bombarded every day by marketers, media, politicians who are telling you, look there's only this way, this is the only way, how do they like break free of that and start to become curious? So do you know where I would start with this? I would start with this to, I would always go inside first. Yeah. So when you hear this, what do you notice is happening in your body? Because that's going to give you an indication whether you're in fight or flight or not. Yeah. So if you're in fight or flight then I would always, because the problem is, is when you're in fight or flight, is the front-thinking, logical, rational part of our brain goes offline. Yes. So what you're doing is then, is you're making a decision based on your emotions, which is never going to end well is it? Or past experiences. Yeah, so fear or emotion. So it's fear run isn't it? So I can't do anything out of my, you know, I can't do anything that I've not done before, you know, I need to stay in my lane, I need to be, you know, I need to be in my, I hear this again all the time, I need to be in my comfort zone, which is actually not that comfortable actually is it, when you look at it, the irony in it. Yeah, I'm really depressed inside my comfort zone. Oh great. Yeah, yeah, how's that working out? So therefore, so notice like, that's where I would start with this, is always notice where you're at. Can you get some regulation in your nervous system? And then once the front part of your brain comes back online, you can start to challenge that slowly. Like again, bearing in mind like if any, like what I want somebody, what I want people to take away from today is that the notion of the too much, too soon, too quick. So notice when that, when you get triggered, overwhelmed, because ultimately it's like it's a sympathetic charge in your system, isn't it? Fear in your system. Regulate that, if you can start to regulate that, then you will start to have a different experience of that. Like I experienced bird singing when I was out running, probably the first time, two three years ago. Mm-hmm. I was like, where are these birds coming from? Because you'd never heard it before, never noticed. Because I was stuck in fight-or-flight. Yeah. phrase. That's amazing. It is like and like it brings me to like I run, you know, quite a lot. Especially first thing in the morning in the spring and a summer like it will bring me to tears. Some mornings. Yeah, just overwhelmed with like, nature because I've never heard it before. Yeah. When people say go to the countryside for peace and quiet. They're gonna laugh. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But like from but and again, so like you will start to experience things differently. Yeah. From if you once you've got a sense of safety in your body. Because most people that are the when they're stuck on, they don't feel safe. Yeah. So they're hanging on, aren't they? They're like, I can't let go of this. I can't let go of this. Because that is the overwhelming fear, terror. Yeah, it's gonna wipe me out. It's gonna wipe me off the face of the planet. If I let go of this, I remember when I first met my wife, the first holiday we went on, we went to Canada, and we were not this massive mountain. And when we got to the top, my the sensation I had wasn't or it was relief. Because a lot of that stress left me. And I could suddenly think and hear clearly for what felt like the first time ever. Yeah, yeah. And that's, I think there'll be people listening to this that perhaps have never had a clear thought. Yeah, yeah. Because it's it's not come from a place of clarity. It comes from a place of fear. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think you'll know as a business owner when the staff do something wrong, or a client sends an RC email. If your response is immediately from tension, yeah. It might be the right response, but it won't feel like it. Yeah. And if you can just like, take a deep breath and remove yourself from that tense feeling. Yeah, the response will be 10 times better. It will be Yeah, because I mean, because it one it's it's it's not a threat, is it? Yeah. Because you're experiencing everything as a threat. Yeah, yeah. And again, you know, the things that people need to remember is that like that threat is potentially life threatening. Yeah. And we've all had it as a business owner. So that email that drops where I'm not going to be able to make payment this week, can I pay you in 10 days time or whatever? And you go, fuck. Yeah. And then and then the next thought is, well, if everyone did this, I'd have no money. And if I know money, I wouldn't have a house. And then my kids won't have anywhere to live. Yeah. It's like, well, none of that's true. Yeah. And actually, the common reasonable thing to do is to look at that and go, is this person telling the truth? Like, are they just having a bit of a squeeze? And will they pay me in 10 days time, which it's hard to know sometimes, but from experience, it's probably always easier to just take it at face value. And if if they have lied, that's on them. It's you're not a mug for being a good person. Or have they done this to you before? Are they mugging you off a bit? In which case, what are your procedures in your business to deal with that? Yeah, without you having to go down a stress rabbit hole? Yeah. Yeah, it gives you an opportunity, doesn't it? Like to upgrade your business? Yeah. Yeah. But you're looking at it through a logical rational lens rather than the lens of like, my life is over. Yeah. Yeah. So if you can always come at it from a from a place of regulation, you know, and I think this is one of the things that Paul taught me was about, you know, what does that give you an opportunity for? Yeah. It gives you an opportunity to, you know, what's the upside of that? So it's really cliche, but pressure is a privilege. Yeah, it is. Yeah. And so opportunity for something. Yeah. And that. Why is it that every month someone's saying, Oh, can I delay my payment? Yeah, right. Well, there's something not right in your business. Yeah. That means that people think they can test that boundary. Yeah. So what can you put in place to sort of say to people? Oh, these are our rules of engagement. By the way, if you miss a payment, it's no hard feelings. But our solicitors going to come down on you like a ton of bricks. Yeah. What do you mean? And well, that's our process. Yeah. Because I don't want the stress of having to chase debt. Yeah. Oh, okay. And your business gets better. Yeah. And it was interesting, like, you know, to, you know, having healthy boundaries. I remember, when I was at uni, one of the prerequisites that we had to go and we had to have like a minimum of 40 hours of therapy. And I remember one of my one of my peers came to me and was like, I've just spoke to a therapist. And they're in their contracts. It said that. Like generally, it's like a 48 hour cancellation. They didn't even have a cancellation policy. It was like you have to you sign up for a minimum 4040 hours of therapy over the year. Yeah. You know, you get four weeks annual leave, I get four weeks annual leave, and we book these in. And you and like you attend all if you know, there's no room to move, there's no room to move. And he was like, going nuts. And I'm like, well, you know, we stand in Yeah, you've now got a choice to make whether you want to enter into that contract, use it or lose it. Yeah. And I think you know, and people, you know, they get bent out of shape, don't they? When they go like, you know, wow, you know, I've never been so insulted. We had one recently. Why are you getting? Why are you getting insulted about that? It's not personal. Yeah, it's business. Yeah, we had one very recently where a lot of our clients are retained. It's a monthly retainer across 12 months. Yeah. And it is use it or lose it. Like if you don't send us the stuff when we asked for it, we can't do the work. Yeah. And so they got their second invoice. And they went absolutely ballistic. Well, I haven't sent you any of the stuff. So you haven't been able to do any of the work. Well, that sounds like a you problem. Where's your responsibility? Yeah. Like, but you haven't done any work. Why are you billing me again? Well, we allocated the resources. We did the research. You have the onboarding call. We've chased you for this stuff. We fixed your meta ads. What do you mean we haven't done any work? Yeah, yeah. Well, the public can't see any of that. And then you you start then I'm like, okay, hang on. This person's bad news for us. And yeah, we make our own decisions around that. But I think we've all been that person as well. We've all been that like victim going into something where the guy you're talking about where it's like, well, they said there's no room to move. That's great. Yeah, that's boundaries. You know where you stand. There's nothing worse. Like when you go, you know, we both work with Paul Morton. And he has boundaries. And he's pretty strict about stuff. But I've worked with coaches in the past, who were a bit wishy washy. They'll ring me five minutes before my coaching session and say, Oh, something's come up. Can we speak next week? Yeah, that sends me into a spiral. Because I'm like, well, there's no structure here. And I'm crying for structure. Absolutely. Absolutely, yeah. And I think, you know, I work with that in my programs around, you know, trauma is chaotic, as we've all spoken about earlier on. And, you know, people think that that's what they want, but actually they want the opposite of that, you know, you put structure and healthy boundaries in place and people thrive. Because they feel safe. I find it with staff that it sounds really patronising and they do listen and it's certainly not a reflection on who you are as people. But if I treat them like children, in the sense that they need boundaries, they need safety, they need security, they need guidance, they perform way better. If I just like create chaos and drop things on them, the result is chaos. And I think my wife does it with me, to be honest. She'll be like, if she goes away for a couple of days, she leaves me a list. Because she knows that that creates some boundaries of her expectations. And it gets done. Yeah, it's just being clear, isn't it, about what it is you're expecting in this situation. And being crystal, crystal clear about it. Because otherwise, you know, if it's too open Well, I could wander off anywhere, couldn't I? Yeah. And again, bringing it back to 2 million years ago, a boundary is like, you know, it's a four sided fence. Your territory, yeah, yeah. Do you know what I mean? You put you in it, nothing can get in and attack me. Yeah, I wandered into somebody else's territory and they threw a spear at me. Yeah. Well, no shit. Yeah. And that's what a boundary is, you know. And I think, you know, especially around trauma, people thrive when you put those in place. Yeah, that's fascinating. So, Gary, I've got a couple of big questions to ask you. I ask every guest. But before that, who do you work with? What might they be experiencing? And why should they reach out to you? Okay, so male business owners in their 40s and 50s. A lot of the young men that I work with have had a recent diagnosis of ADHD. Okay. And how does that come about? Why might that have happened? So they would be experiencing burnout generally. So, you know, issues with their relationships, self medicating, drinking too much. You know, find it when the little things become very big. So having very little capacity to, you know, have time at home, no boundaries. So, find themselves working all the time. No outside interests, no fun. Those are the general kind of symptoms, for want of a better word. And inside my program, what we do is we work on the three pillars that we've already spoken about. There's a huge understanding of the nervous system. There's a huge understanding of your mindset, where your focus is at. And then the last one is around creating a purpose for the future. So goal setting that are, you know, there are business goals in there, but like a structure around the outside of, you know, whatever, you know, family goals, fun goals, etc. Yeah. You know, especially the fun ones, you know. And why is that? Because I've talked about this, I literally stood on a stage on Saturday. And the event was called Legacy. And my slot was about telling people that they need to make sure that they've got experiences to look forward to. And most business owners, I would say, really struggle with that. They really struggle to see the wood for the trees when it comes to like, what they actually want to do with their spoils. And I think that was something that I really struggled with. But again, if your nervous system is stuck on, and you are continually in fight or flight, you have no room for fun in your life. Yeah, because even the stuff you love is actually shit. Yeah. So therefore, again, once people have got some degree of regulation in their nervous system, safety, then they can start to plan about how to be curious. Like when I first started, like, it overwhelmed me. I'm like, well, I don't even know what I like. Because I've been surviving for decades. Yeah. So for me, it's about, you know, being in a community where you can kind of, you know, Be yourself. Be yourself, bounce ideas off other people. And, you know, be open to doing something different. Yeah. Like, me and my wife, we, you know, we, we introduced kind of like date night and just doing like, we went to the ice hockey before Christmas. Like, neither of us have ever been and it was amazing. It was such a laugh. Just doing things like that. And then like, you know, we put a load of random shit in a jar on pieces of paper, fold it up. So Hannah puts 20 things in, I put 20 things in and we don't know what's going to come out. And we've had like, I had to make, there's a Tropshire dish called a fidget pie. I've heard of that, yeah. And I pulled it out of the jar and I had to make it. It took me six fucking hours to make this pie. What did it taste like? Pretty shit. Was it? That's quite, it was all right, but it was hard work. Yeah, yeah. It was hard work, but, but I'd have never done that otherwise. And I know now that I never want to make one again, but it was a good laugh. And I think it's things like that, isn't it? You know, because there is much more to life, isn't there, than just working and being stuck in that kind of... Even if it's your passion. Yeah. Because I think you can spoil your passion by burning out and then associating that burnout with your passion. And that, like, I know Hannah's featuring heavily in this. I probably need to calm it down. But the one thing she's taught me is to like, see the world through a child's eyes. Ah, yeah. And like, when you said about the bird song, I was like, oh, yeah, she's taught me that, that like, even today, she was looking out the window and there was a starling on a flat roof at the back and she was talking to it. Nice. And I was like, it's like Snow White. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But there is something in that. Yeah, there is. And I think for, again, to introduce grown men into doing things that their ego would probably... Yeah, don't be such a wuss....resist against, you know, is eye-opening to see men, you know, after, you know, you know, they're coming into the programme and they're burnt out and then after, you know, even a couple of months, starting to kind of have an appreciation of what life is. Yeah. Just because they're, you know, they feel safe. Yeah. Basically, that's all it is. And what's the best way to contact you? So, therealmetherapy.com is my website. and socials is the real me therapy. Yeah nice right two questions Gary okay one's a biggie for me and one's a biggie for the audience yeah so the biggie for me what's your favorite film and why? I think Wow Godfather 2 oof I think okay why speaking of fight-or-flight yeah I why I I just loved it from an early age I like the contrast of seeing seeing him grow up yeah and then where it keeps moving backwards and forwards struggle yeah yes yeah I really like it yeah I can watch it over and over and over again nice okay it's a good answer I can't question it sometimes people say really weird stuff and I have to delve but Godfather part 2 considering it's considered one of the greatest films of all time is a safe answer if you said Jaws again safe answer so people sit there and they're like oh I think it's Rita Sue and Bob 2 okay what's the best mistake you've ever made? Coming back to England from Spain. Talk me through it. So as I say I was just burnt out I was so burnt out and it was a bit it was a gamble to come back you know I walked away from everything over there like materialistic wise I didn't even have anywhere to live I was just on surviving literally surviving so for me like that that that was the best decision I think I've ever made like I don't know whether I'd call it a mistake I don't know if I've answered your question or not. Interestingly when I ask that question now people who have done a lot of work on themselves like you perhaps don't believe in mistakes in the same way because they've reframed them as yeah yeah so but that's a perfect answer I would say gamble like yeah I would put it as a gamble it was a risk huge risk yeah even to go and start the journey where I'm at now yeah yeah I think you know my life is I've met so many amazing people so what so many you know yourself including you know class as friends yeah like real real friends rather than acquaintances to go and get smashed with yeah and it's that feeling of can I have a deep conversation with this person without fear of judgment yeah absolutely and you know like I imagine you're very similar in this sense I struggle with small talk yeah I can't really have it unless I'm drunk and then it's like well if I have to be drunk to do it then it's not for me yeah and that's too intense for some people and I'm okay with that yeah but that's the real me yeah it is yeah Gary thank you for being an epic guest. Cheers Giles, thank you mate.