Marketing - Don't stop. When ads work, double down

That’s the blunt truth most business owners ignore. When a marketing campaign, advertising strategy or sales system starts producing results, the natural instinct should be to scale. But too often, entrepreneurs get bored, distracted or afraid: they pivot. They chase the next trend or fiddle with what isn’t broken. The result? Momentum stalls, revenue plateaus, and growth opportunities vanish. This episode is your reminder to stick with what works, amplify your wins and stop looking for problems to solve when the solution is right in front of you.

In this no-nonsense episode of the Stay Hungry Podcast, Joel and Martha go deep into the psychology behind this self-sabotaging behaviour. They unpack the common blocks that stop smart, capable people from scaling up: fear of success, trust issues, and warped money mindsets. You’ll also hear real-world client stories, conversion maths that make scaling a no-brainer, and how objectivity (not emotion) is your biggest business asset. Plus, what Gary Vee regrets about Google Ads and why being “too comfortable” can cost you millions in the long run.

🎯 Why your best-performing adverts get ignored 

💸 The real reason you’re scared to scale 

📊 Breaking down money blocks with facts (not fear) 

🚀 How to turn £500 into £5,000… and then into £50,000 

🧠 The mindset mistake holding smart business owners back

Whether it’s advertising spend, VA systems or lead generation: if it’s bringing ROI, do more of it. Don’t chase shiny new tactics. Know your numbers, trust the data, and back yourself.

And yes, we also debate who’d win in a fight: 100 men or one gorilla…

Tap the link in bio to listen.

Links:

Website: https://www.codebreak.co.uk
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/codebreakcrew/
Facebook: https://facebook.com/codebreakcrew/

Joel's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/joelstoneofficial/
Joel's Facebook: https://facebook.com/joelstoneofficial/

Free Marketing Budget Calculator: https://codebreak.outgrow.us/knowyournumbers

Arrange a call with Codebreak: https://form.jotform.com/241272835208051

Transcript

0:13

Martha, three recordings in one day. That is a lot. I'm fucked. Yeah, it's gonna be busy. And I'm trying to do loads of work before I selfishly jet off into the sunset. So we're talking about a marketing theme, really. Don't stop when something's working, be it ads, whatever, double down. Now, this is sprung from a behaviour that I see time and time again where things are working really well, but when things are working, that's quite boring. And something I see a lot of business owners do is they then look for the next thing to try and make work rather than doubling down, quadrupling down on the thing that's working. Yeah. Because it's almost like, this is how I see it as the account manager. The goal has been met, and so it's not exciting anymore. And so it's like, but now I want to get a sales team to speak to even more people. But it's like, no, like if- This system's working. Yeah, your DM system is working. Do more of it. Pay your VA more to message more people. Yeah, tell your VA to train another VA. Yeah, so like Gary Vee talks about this. One of the things he regrets with Wine Library when they started doing Google Ads was it was working really well. So he didn't, in hindsight, it was easy to see that the thing he needed to know was to do more of it. Because when it, like this is in the infancy of Google Ads and he was an early adopter when people were only using Google. They were still treating Google like the yellow pages, like a directory. And he was using it to generate wine sales. And so he was getting like 5p a click, which I mean, like trying to get clicks for wine now would be... 30 times, 40 times that. And he didn't, I mean, he still did very well, but he didn't see the opportunity in front of him. And I was listening to a podcast by Alex Hormozy about this where he paid a lot of money to be a mastermind, went into the room and the guy in the room said to him, the ads are working really well, like too well. So spend until they're at breaking point. And he said, well, I don't know. Spend until they're at breaking point. Make a scale like fuck. And the reality is some people don't want to. They don't want to scale like fuck or they don't want to double down because they enjoy fiddling. They enjoy tackling problems. They're problem solvers. And when there isn't a problem to solve, they get uncomfortable. But that's remembering, that's sort of forgetting that the purpose of your business is to make profit for your shareholders, whether that's you the owner on your own or a board or international investors. And so we see it with clients where the stats are really good, but they've spent so little in relative terms that the money that's landed in their bank account doesn't reflect how effective the campaign's been. But if they'd spent 10 times that as much and the stats had been the same, that 500 quid that landed in their bank account would have been five grand or that five grand that landed in their bank account would have been 50 grand or that 50 grand that landed in their bank account would have been half a million. And they would be looking at it completely different. And it was because they didn't back themselves when they saw it was working. Instead they were like, but it could be misaligned expectations. So it could be like, oh, I've invested two and a half grand into my marketing. I'm expecting 20 grand back from this rather than thinking I've invested two and a half grand into my marketing of which 500 pounds was on ads. I've made five grand back. So I've 10 X to my ad spend. I'd be happy with five X. So why don't I put all of that five grand back in? And if I get five X, I've made 25 grand. And that it's a bit of a mathematical mentality. Yeah, you also need context, I think. So like Gary V didn't know his, well, I imagine he would have known. Well, maybe not if he was one of the first people to announce that five P a click is incredible. And so- It's a regret based on future knowledge. Yeah, knowing that five P, because it could have, one P a click could have been the baseline. And so if you're running ads, I really encourage you to know. So in my mentorship, I'm in a group chat and someone's just posted just, and like, this is a ludicrous example, but they've just said like, my click-through rate is 2%, which I believe is good. I've had eight clicks, but nobody's DMed me. What's wrong with my ads? Well, if you've had eight clicks and your click-through rate is 2%, that means you've had 400 views, which is fuck all. Yeah. Probably cost you 10 quid max. So there's nothing wrong with your ads. You haven't got enough data to make a decision. So what Gary should have done, and he knows that now, which is why it's a true regret rather than like, hindsight's a wonderful thing, is it's costing me five P a click and for every 200 clicks, I sell a bottle of wine. That's a made up thing, but so let's assume that that's costing 10 quid to sell a, I think that's the maths. 200 clicks, five P a click? Yeah, 10 quid. 10 quid to sell a 30 quid bottle of wine, let's say. And there's still six quid profit in that for me. Now that's made up maths, but if that was it, he could make decisions based on that. Nothing to do with, is five P a click good or not? Because the reality is, is five P a click good for me? Yeah. Not is five P a click good? And like for us, like we've got clients that run at 50 P a lead. We've got clients that run at 50 pound a lead. Both are happy. Because the client that runs at 50 quid a lead gets three leads and converts a 20 grand customer. The client that runs at 50 P a lead needs 100 leads, but then converts a 500 pound customer. Both outcomes okay. And that's what you need to know. You need to understand the maths of your business. And I mean, I've spoken from stage, I've stood in rooms, I've run workshops one to ones. When it comes down to it, I'm like, okay, what's the revenue of your business? What's that number? What do you mean? What's the gross income, the revenue of your business? I don't know. Okay. And what was left after you took out all the costs? What's the profit? I don't know. What's your profit margin? I don't know. So why are you telling me that five P a click's good or bad or indifferent? Because you don't fucking know, because you don't know your numbers. And so once you're on top of your numbers, the freedom that gives you as a business owner is wild. And then you can double down on things and like make decisions really quickly. Like one of the tactics we're doing at the moment, we send out quite an expensive box to 10 people a week that we've handpicked to receive this box. With a view that if one in 20 converts, that is incredible for us. So that's a thousand pound gamble for every boxes we send, every 20 boxes we send. I don't know many business owners that would be willing to do that. But if it works, I'm going to do more of it. And I'm going to keep doing it and keep doing it. And then people will be like, but you're going to need a warehouse for all these boxes. Yep. You're going to need a member of staff purely dedicated to filling up and sending out boxes. Yep. And it's really labor intensive. Yep. And my response will be, it's profitable. It's good for the business. And to be honest, it's quite exciting as well. It's fun, yeah. Yeah. And so I think there's three things that come into it where I think you'll be an interesting person to talk to. Fear of success, what if we can't fulfill the demand that we create? Money mindset, so that's a lot of money to spend rather than thinking that's a lot of money to make. And then the trust issues, it could be trusting your agency, trusting the ad platform, trusting your website, trusting your team, trusting yourself. But when you combine those three things, it's a bit of a shit storm. Like as a marketing provider, when we're talking to people who are scaling, there's always a block. There's always like, well, that was our record of a month, so we'd rather pat ourselves on the back than look to break our record. Where those elite entrepreneurs, they're like athletes, such like Usain Bolt breaks the world record. He didn't then think, oh, I've done that. I won't bother trying to break it again. Yeah, it becomes your baseline, or it should. Yeah. Now, that's not for everyone, but this podcast is called Stay Hungry. So the entrepreneur that I'm talking to right now is thinking, fuck, our ads are performing better than ever, and we're pulling up trees. I'm going to double my ad spend as opposed to ads performing better than ever, so we can throttle the ad spend, because we'll still get the same result. Yeah, or my ads are working, so I don't need my agency anymore. Well, yeah. Yeah, I mean, that's mad in itself. Which could be fine for a month, two months, three months at a push, but it's going to bomb. If you're spending a thousand pound plus a month on ads and think that you're going to be able to monitor them yourself. Effectively. You're having a laugh. We've got AI on it, humans on it. We're checking every day, and it's still hard. And that's a thousand pound a month. We've got clients that are spending 5,000 pound a day, and plus sometimes. So the amount of data that you're having to process, and look at, and check, and change, and tweak, and think about seasonality, and hot weather, and cold weather, and bank holidays, and school holidays, and all these factors that come in. It's a full-time job. I cannot tell you the effect that Easter holidays had on multiple of our campaigns. Like, so many of our campaigns. And even just Easter weekend. Even just Easter weekend. Just getting views on ads was difficult. Yeah. Which affects everything else. But then we're in a position to talk to our clients and say, look, all of our clients are seeing the same thing. Views have gone down. Click-through rate's gone down. Cost per click's gone up. It's not just you. It's a trend. We've got to ride it out. Because on the other side is where everyone else has quit because of this little blip in the road, and you're laughing, which is almost exactly how the stock market works. It's not like a coincidence that all of these things are maths. That people start to do OK. There's a blip in the market. They panic sell. And then the successful ones stuck it out, and then buy in cheap because everyone else has sold off. And then they go again. Ads behaves in the same way. And so for you, it's interesting. So I'm borderline psychotic. My money mindset's pretty strong now. I used to worry about money a lot. But money now is just a vehicle for impact. With the influence and factors on the work on your mindset and within the business, could you would have one worked without the other? Does that make sense? Because I have a money block in terms of like. Spending it all. Well, not if you're stressed. When I think, I still sometimes will be like, I hate pitching. In my head, I'll be like. Oh, to a client. I'll be like, oh, that's. Yeah, you've had one recently where we had to up our fees because they want to do quite a bit more work. But you felt like it would damage the relationship, which I don't think it has. I don't know if. I don't know yet, basically. They haven't replied. Interesting. Not on that, but on other things. So we'll see. Just press. Just say, like, just following up. Yeah, which makes sense because otherwise I end up burning out. So if a money conversation in a commercial relationship damages the relationship, that's a problem. Yeah, it's not the relationship that you think you have. Yeah, so I wouldn't ever worry about it. Because if they're like, they can only say no. If they say no and they're offended, then you need to think about what's gone wrong. So if you're like, oh, by the way, our fees are doubling next week because you've asked for a little bit more out of us. And they're like, fucking hell, we've done you loads of favors. You've taken the piss. Well, I think that's a fair enough response. But if they're asking you to do 10 times as much work and you're only bumping the fee by x amount, that's a reasonable request. And I think people are really afraid to have those commercial conversations to be like, where's my money? Because mine is I'm looking at it from my perspective, not from a business perspective, which is where I know my money block is. Yeah, and my wife, Hannah, would be the same. So she's never been involved in business financial conversations like I have. I mean, she's done budgeting and stuff. But if I buy something for work and it costs $2,000, that's not the same as me buying something for home that costs $2,000. It's totally playing two different games. A two grand piece of equipment for the office that needs to last 10 years is not the same as a 50 quid kettle at home that needs to last two years. Well, I guess home is like, what would you call it? Like, it doesn't produce, well, you're comfy. It's where you live. But it's not an asset. It's not an investment in the same, yeah. I think people try and treat it like an asset and end up hurting themselves. Because if you buy a $200,000 house and put a new kitchen in it for $40,000, unlikely you've added $40,000 to the value of that house. But you might have improved the environment and made it lovely for you, which might be worth that to you. That's a different thing. If, for example, you've got a house that costs $40,000, I buy two new podcast mics to improve the quality of the podcast and they're quite expensive and you've got a kitchen that costs $40,000, mics, so let's say we're a grand in on these mics, we're not 600 quid I think. In my head, I'm like, will that purchase return me 600 pounds or more in the near future to justify it or will it improve the quality of our output to create 600 pound or more elsewhere? And if the answer is yes, it's probably the right decision. That's very, the way you make a commercial decision, the way you make like a residential decision is so different and I think people are applying their personal financial decision making ability to commercial decisions. So they are going, they're seeing ads as a cost output, not an investment, which they are to start with until you prove they're an investment. But once they're an investment, if I came up to you in the street and said for every pound you give me, I'll give you two, you give me all the pounds you've got. So why wouldn't you do that with ads that are doing the same thing? But people don't. And like, owning a marketing agency, that's massively frustrating because we've had clients that are massively fucking winning statistically, who then don't do what they need to do to win. And I'm like, are you fucking mad? And it's shiny, shiny object syndrome. Yeah, someone told me I need to do a challenge or someone told me I need to launch an event. But why? I literally had to say to a client the other day, your focus, you've put so much focus here and nothing's happening here. The focus needs to go back to what it was on before. Yeah, and that's a business owner thing too. When something's working, they start focusing on the things that are broke, but why sometimes the correct thing to do is abandon the things that are broke and double down on the thing that's working. So Dyson's a great example recently, obviously ripped it up in the vacuum cleaner market, now doing hair straighteners, hair dryers, hand dryers, all sorts of shit. They tried to do a car and they were flooding money into the car project. Got very far with it, like there was a working prototype, it was going to be like a driverless car I think and electric and you could drive it or not drive it like a Tesla. And then you just pulled the plug. It was just a money sink and as the cost of things in Europe was going through the roof and they were manufacturing, some of the manufacturing was in the UK and battery technology and stuff, they had to just cut their losses on the thing that wasn't working and stop trying to fix it and then double down. And now we're seeing they've got some bizarre hair curling things coming out and things that you would never have expected from a vacuum cleaner company. I've got the Airwrap, well not the most recent one. Have you? Yeah, I don't even use that bit of hairdryer, but I did want the Novel 2. It's just as easy to have a curler and curl it round yourself than suck it in with a mini hoover, but whatever. I was an advertiser's dream there. Do you think someone with thicker hair it might be better for? No, it doesn't hold the curler very well and my hair's quite fine so you'd think it would hold better. Oh, interesting. And it takes fucking ages and my arm aches and I just... So you just shat on the entire point I've just made? Well it's probably me, I don't care enough about how my hair looks for it to be worth the investment of time. I didn't mind investing the money, but I didn't want to invest the time. You know today, speaking of hair, no one noticed I had my hair cut or beard trimmed or that I've got a black eye. Yeah, but most of the time your glasses are in the way. It's pretty obvious when I take them off. It's really weird. I missed it. It's fucking weird. I must have pushed my glasses into my eye. That's what it looks... Yeah, because it's right in the corner. But I'd just tell everyone that you've had a fight with a... Polar bear. A orangutan. I've got a question for you. Yeah. It's trending. I think you started this trend. Ryan Proctor, our videographer, asked me, I think it's guerrilla versus 100 men that's trending everywhere. Who do you think would win? Well, I guess that's the logic, yeah. 100 men, obviously. I'm not sure. Yeah, because you just... Could 100 men overpower a guerrilla? What? Bare hands? Well, I don't think they could because I don't think enough of you could get a grip on it. Oh, but so we're not talking like they've got crossbows or... No, no, no. Just 100 naked men against a guerrilla. See, that's different now. I'm sorry, this is the dream I had last night. Who was the guerrilla? Yeah. Were you the guerrilla? Okay, so no weapons. Yeah, because guerrillas have kind of got that insane mindset where it's like... I don't think people understand how strong a guerrilla is. Yeah, so I was thinking that if you had 100 men, one of them's going to shoot. Yeah, yeah. Not that. So I think the argument is a guerrilla is like as strong as 20 men or 10 men or whatever. But 100 men can't get at it. Yeah. Or you wouldn't even get 20 men at it. I think the guerrilla's winning. What men though? Are we talking like World's Strongest Man or... Yeah, 100 Eddie Halls. Because I'm backing Eddie Hall. To be fair, the only person... He had a UFC fight, like an MMA fight at the weekend against a former World's Strongest Man. And Eddie Hall is a fucking animal. He's just massive. I'm not sure he's far off a guerrilla. Like, fair play. Okay, so 100 Eddie Halls versus one guerrilla. Yeah, then I'm backing Eddie. But normal men. 100 me against a guerrilla, the guerrilla's having it. I'm not even going to get angry enough. Yeah, but fight or flight would kick in, wouldn't it? Yeah, I'd flight. I'd run like fuck. And you still would not run a guerrilla. I'm doubling down on my running ability. Which isn't great. Is that wise, then? Maybe we should double down on something else. What's your choice? Back yourself to get away, or back yourself to turn and fight against a guerrilla? I'm backing myself to figure out a way to get away. Yeah. I mean, we're quite smart, though. And I feel like guerrillas are relying on brute strength, whereas we'd be straight in the eyes. I think they're smart. What if it was a human with a small stick, or a big stick? 100 humans, each with a stick. Still backing the guerrilla. What about a long stick? A cunt football? Well, that's different, then, because then you can use cunning. Because you could, like, tire it out and stuff. I don't know how we got onto this. It's Ryan's fault. Hopefully he'll listen. So what, like... I'm going to ask you a question. What's the biggest investment you've ever made, other than your house? Probably a mattress. My car, probably. Your car. Which I'm just about to pay off. You bought that off your mum? That's not a criticism, but it makes it less scary. Yes, because I guess, ultimately, if I couldn't pay it, she's not going to... The bailiffs aren't coming. Yeah. And I'm not that scared of my mum. Hello. I mean, if a hundred of my mum... If my mum was a bailiff, I'd be fucking petrified. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I'm not I feel like physically I'm not gonna fight my mom but I know if my yeah If my uncle is probably back my mom in a fight against me as well Would you? It's getting old my mom's a love-taker 100 holes against Debbie who's gonna win? What about if Joel was the size of a chicken? Yeah, I'd stop Like what's the biggest investment you've ever made other than your car house I suppose Travelling Yeah, yeah, I guess so yeah, that's gay spending that money No, but I was quite young and Fancy free. Yeah But I still believe in my head that if I needed money I could make some I'm like that like people say what if this goes wrong? I'm always like what if it doesn't but then also if it does I know how to make money. Yeah, I genuinely believe like if push comes to shove I could Make any situation Yeah, I can't remember the last time I was Properly afraid to pay for something. Yeah, what's the biggest investment you've made coach? I Guess it's different. That's that's that is true. That is one so we went to a comp I say we me and Andy when Andy was still part code break went to a conference at Wembley and Decided to invest in their Mastermind and we'd never we'd been in a mastermind before but didn't cost anything like this did and I think the combined fee for me And Andy was 26 grand Total total. Yeah the combined fee And we didn't have it And we did it anyway And do you think that that motivated you to? Because I do you think it desensitized me to doubling down on things in the future It made it easier because I would say that that investment created a return. I Literally had this conversation with the coach this week that The problem with coaching is that if the investment isn't big enough people won't do it Yeah, so it has to be money in this instance one of our best ever clients Two of our best ever clients came from that environment Who have both spent? So we've hit 180 grand off those two clients off for 26 grand investment 20 Obviously, that's not the obviously we learned skills and sales tactics and things that we've been able to apply to other things, too So did we see that money back? yes, did it scare the fuck out of me when we did it when the business wasn't in a position to do it and We had to find a way to cash flow that yeah But I backed myself and that's without data that was just with like other people's testimonials with ads You've got the data in front of you if it's working Why on earth are you not backing yourself? And if you're not is There some work you need to do on yourself to make life easier for you like is it like we've got this really weird psychology in society where someone will go and Put a deposit down of 30 grand and buy a 350 grand house and then pay a 1200 quid mortgage every month on that house for the next 20 years and Ultimately, they're never going to see the full return on that investment because that's the house they live in But if you said to them your ads are making you 10 quid for every pound you spend do you want to increase your budget They'd be nervous about that. That's fucking mental. Yeah, but it's conditioned, isn't it? It's how you're conditioned like Conspiracy theory Joel says that's how we all get kept stuck Yeah, it's like they want they big brother want you to be Conditioned to think like that because wealthy people Need other people to do their shit But they don't think like that if everyone starts thinking like that There's a fucking problem because we're all fighting for the same thing and that might be wealthy financially that might be wealthy Exponentially like people who are like exponentially led Prioritize experience and double down on experiences. They get more out of doing the same thing that we do So I could hike up a hill and enjoy it like the fresh air and enjoy the view Someone who's exponentially wealthy could do the same thing and it'll fucking blow their mind even though they do it every day because they're doubling down on that thing and I would love people to be like less robotic and less caught up in their limiting beliefs and their money blocks and Their fear of what if what if it gets too busy? What if it's what if this doesn't work? What if this breaks the ads? What if? Yeah, but what if it does work? What if you are able to fill it? What if when you start fulfilling it people start coming out the woodwork and want to work for you? What if this is the greatest decision you've ever made? What if this takes you from? Living in your small flat in your small town to having your dream home and going on three holidays a year or whatever It is that flow. Yeah, you flip the wife. Yeah, what if it doesn't work? but what if it does and like I I really rate people who look at things objectively from a factual standpoint and go I've got the facts in front of me and therefore I can make this decision. It's not a gamble and Yet people are more comfortable making a gamble than they are making an informed decision in many cases Like you had this earlier this week. You said I've got going the mortgage advisors coming, right? And I thought to myself what the fuck does a mortgage advisor know Don't because right actually on this this is a bit off-topic, but it's to do with numbers yeah, so we're basically gonna have to do a five-year because of Jason potentially going full-time in the business and then you have to have two years of accounts and he's not gonna have it and It's gonna cost us a grand to move our mortgage So roughly with the savings we'll make from the interest rate going down It was you're moving it before it's at the end of it But it's not it. Well, he said it's at the end. He rang us. I need to check it Yeah, that's normal is it yeah, yeah, yeah Okay a grandma. Yeah So put like so I've worked out roughly we'll save like 50 quid a month with this new But if we're not gonna see that save for 22 months, yeah, but across five years you will so based on what I've just said Thinking objectively about the fact what's the right decision? If it's a 60 month mortgage agreement, it only takes you to pay his fee and You have to pay his fees commission-based, right? I Don't know. He's got No, he's coffee. Yeah Martha you need to talk to me before you make these decisions. Well, I'm just gonna sack him off but sorry but then what you don't have to pay a fee well I'm just gonna look myself because I don't know he's already done his service I don't know just put in our details into a computer from I can tell but is that what you paid him for I don't know I cannot condone you not paying someone but one phone call 60 oh he didn't come to in person no oh yeah fuck it but yeah 60 month contract you break even at month 22 contract you're gonna have to do anyway probably a good deal on that basis yeah yeah so I just went back and said can you send us the second best option for context so I would say this is this is the option we've been looking at and go to your current provider and see if they can match or beat it without charging you an application fee yeah treat you like car insurance yeah I hate life admin flip it flip it I'm saving myself money and locking in a mortgage for five years I won't have to worry about for another five years I yeah see part of me is like I'll just stay with you away because I can't be asked the AG I'll just pay them it's not much it's not much I know it's not as bad as you never as bad as you think everything like getting up in the morning yeah once you're up it's fine Jim once you're in the gym it's fine yeah normally but yeah like that's the thing isn't it you've got a wet like what should we just lost half the listeners I don't think so it's a real like there'll be plenty of people thinking about stuff like that their car lease all these things look at the objective facts if you're not a maths person if this is hard for you put those into chat GPT yeah I'll be like this is the situation this is where I currently am this is where they're saying I'm gonna be this is the objective fact help me make a decision because I don't know how to and then explain your decision so I understand it yeah cuz chat GPT does not have motions no works off pure fun yeah and well the fact providing the facts you give it are correct yeah I mean last week we had a client who's decided to do whatever they've decided to do we were adamant their campaign was working correctly so I objectively downloaded their stats which I can't alter their stats that live data put it into chat GPT and said what would you do in this instance and it said I'd double my budget this is fantastic send the link I'm like okay and then if that works I'd double it again and if that was I'd double it again and he's like well the robots fucking say it's the right thing to do I can't convince you and I think that that's what smart scaling looks like it's like looking at what's working and then doubling down is extreme unless the numbers are massively in your favor but 20% increments another 20% and another 20% another 20% and you'll be amazed how quickly you can grow a business when your ads are working we've I've met people who are getting leads for like 10 quid a lead and they're worried because the upfront cost of that is expensive they get a hundred leads into its customer grand and then on that webinar they do 40 grands worth of sales and for the next webinar guess what they spent on ads grand again what the fuck so I just on that I just want to say we work within a kind of ecom and they were happy to break even on the first sale because they know how much sales almost all profit yeah and they have been so wildly successful they've gone from 20 orders a day to 50 the new goal is 80 they've now got direct I don't know if you know this actually they've got direct contact with the suppliers now so they can effectively drop ship they don't want to do that but they effectively can bring the volume gets too big yeah they can do it even cheaper and so them just having that mindset has completely transformed their businesses important bit that you haven't said is they were happy to break even on the first sale but they were actually 7x in their return yeah every pound they spent there again seven quid back when they just wanted a pound back so we've still got six quid to play with before like we can scale that to the moon and this is a business who was like a decent-sized family business but now we're talking life-changing sums of money going through their business every day