Mindset - She Climbed the Trek Without Me

Joel had planned it meticulously: a once-in-a-lifetime trip to Borneo to mark his wife Hannah’s recovery from major surgery. The centrepiece? A challenging rainforest trek to Coffin Cliff Point, a viewpoint so breathtaking it’s said to resemble an ocean of green. But the night before, illness hit. On the morning of his birthday, Joel was too unwell to get out of bed. Hannah had to go without him.

That moment, watching someone he loves tackle something monumental, solo, sparked a powerful reflection. In business, just like in life, there comes a time when you have to step back. Whether it’s with staff, clients or even yourself, authentic leadership often means letting go and giving others the space to step up.

In this episode, Joel and Martha delve into what it truly means to lead from the jungle to the boardroom.

• 💬 Letting go of control to let others grow 
• 👣 The power of empowering your team 
• 💼 How ego gets in the way of good leadership 
• 🧠 Managing different personalities for better outcomes 
• 📈 Why your team’s success is your success

If you’re running a business or just trying to be a better leader, this one’s unmissable.

Listen now!

Links:

Website: https://www.codebreak.co.uk
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Facebook: https://facebook.com/codebreakcrew/

Joel's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/joelstoneofficial/
Joel's Facebook: https://facebook.com/joelstoneofficial/

Free Marketing Budget Calculator: https://codebreak.outgrow.us/knowyournumbers

Arrange a call with Codebreak: https://form.jotform.com/241272835208051

Transcript

0:13

Hey Marth, we're back. We are back baby. Oh dear. How are you? We're actually, this is the second day, second day in a row? No. Is it not? No, it's Thursday today, I'm being recorded. One thing about life at Cobrake is the weeks just fly by. Everything merges into one, yeah, it's like a bank holiday weekend this weekend as well. Yeah, yeah, I forgot about that. So Monday and Friday, we're not here. Friday? Friday, we're going to... Not all day, surely? Oh, it's far away. Where is it? Ipswich. No, it's not. Yeah, it is. Oh, he told me he was in the Midlands. Who's driving there? Well, us apparently. I'll confirm address, but I'm pretty sure it's miles away. Oh my God. I mean, can't wait to go and see them. Yeah. Wow. Okay, that is a trek. Probably should have thought about that a bit more. I think they've got a few officers, so I'll check. Well, I know they have. I thought he said he was like... Well, he might be. Near Coventry or something he said to me. No, he's definitely near London. He is, but then I don't know where the main, the main warehouse is in Ipswich. Lloyd, we'll meet you in Shrewsbury. Yeah. Okay, cool. So this episode, it's actually titled, She Climbed the Trek Without Me. It's a very self-indulgent episode about my birthday. But basically, my wife, I've talked about on the podcast before, but she had a pretty major operation last year. And before the operation was booked, we walked into Trailfinders. Other reputable travel agents are available. And I arranged a holiday of a lifetime that was on both of our bucket lists for something for her to look forward to on the other side of being in a wheelchair. Because it's hard to know that you could be in a wheelchair for like three to six months and over Christmas and you've got a niece and a nephew and stuff. It's actually quite a lot to deal with. And so yeah, we booked a trip to Borneo and within that there's some like nature trekking and cultural stuff with tribes and then taking in beaches and cities and stuff. And the one thing that we put in was to go to Coffin Cliff Point in Dannum Valley, which is like the oldest rainforest in the world. They discover new species there all the time. It's like remote. It's 130 million years old, if not older. And there's this viewpoint in it that apparently when you get there, you look over the rainforest and the rainforest is so dense, it looks like water. Is that to do with like the mist as well? Well, maybe, but I don't know because I never got there. And this was going to be like an epic celebration of Hannah's recovery and a really big deal for me. And then the night before my birthday, I got really ill in the jungle and woke up on, I hoped it was just like a 24-hour thing. I'm tired, yeah. Woke up on my birthday, I was like, I can't actually get out of bed. You're gonna have to do this without me. And at this point, we'd only had one practice trek and she borrowed some sticks off a guide. And she did well, but it was like shit. And so off she trotted that day to go and do this thing. And I couldn't go. And I'm not gonna lie, I had a little cry to myself. Selfishly, I also wanted to see it and see the wildlife you see on the way. And then I also wanted to see Hannah achieve that, and that got taken away from me. But when you've got nine hours on your own to sort of, if anyone can hear a licking noise, the dog is going to town on my legs. It's so funny. It's very cute, but it's very funny. Yeah, he just wants attention. And the way you just went through that, it's like it wasn't even happening. Strolls in. But yeah, I didn't get to go. And I felt sorry for myself for a little bit. And then I realised actually, her being able to do that by herself was even more epic. Did she have a moment of like, oh, I won't go then? No, not once. And it wasn't on the cards. No one was staying behind to look after me. Bollocks. I'll be alright. It's just a bit of a cold or whatever. But just the fact that when we did the trek the night before, she was constantly checking to see if she was okay with me. And it's like, if you take away the safety net, it becomes fight or flight. And she hasn't really got any flight about her. So she did it. And she was really, really proud of herself. And I guess like the analogy, and the reason I've brought it to the podcast, is that same thing happens for me with staff. And it happens for me with clients where I can guide you to where you need to be. And I can kind of want to be a part of that. But ultimately, it's your journey to take, whether it's staff or clients. So I can get client leads, I can help them understand what to do with the leads. But it's up to them to convert the leads and turn them into sales. And retain. And it's their glory. Yeah, like, Oh, no, I've been a part of it, but it's their glory. And that's fine. And the same with staff, like I can give you all the tools, I can show you how to do it every time. But until I stop showing you how to do it and tell you how to figure it and tell you to figure out for yourself, you're never going to be as good as you could be. I just thought that was like a an interesting lesson to come from the jungle. And the last lesson we'll be talking about in the podcast from the jungle. So yeah, um, discuss. It's interesting you say that because I can remember so many times. I'm not so much remember now. But when I look back at where I first started at Code Break and where I am now, I do things like daily now that would terrify me. I used to be like not terrified, but like nervous every time I'd get on a call with a client. Yeah. And now it's like my diary is just full of client calls. And I love it. But there had to be a point where it was like, um, I would either take the call with you or one of the other senior execs at the time where it's like you're on your own. And I remember thinking, shit, I had like, and like, now I'm at the point where it's like, I look forward to that. Yeah, I was so scared at the time. And like, how do you? How do you get through that? Like shit without experience? Only build up resilience by doing it. And I think you've got like, you have to have something there that the expectation is you're going to do it like someone's relying on you to do it. Like you say you're going to do it. If you're just like, Oh, I'm maybe going to do this thing. You'll never do it. Yeah. Yeah, I have that about me. Like I've got something in the works at the moment. And I've told a few people about it just to make myself publicly accountable. I'm going to do this. And normally when I say, you know, because I'm an idiot. Normally, they're pretty unbelievable things. But Now I've told someone, I don't want to make a fool out of myself, it's going to happen. Who have you told, just interested? Coffee Paul, I tell Coffee Paul quite a lot of stuff. I tell Ben Knight quite a lot of stuff, shout out Ben Knight, bought me a sword yesterday. Yeah, you need to see that, it's on the Instagram, right? Yeah, it's on my Instagram, it's a Japanese broadsword, nearly two metres long. It's like, if Ben was, I don't think he'd be able to, it's so big. You're tall, when you were pretending, how would it look on your back? I was like, a normal sized person? It wouldn't be a useful weapon for Ben, yeah. Or most anyone under six foot. Yeah, I think so, it's big. And heavy. Well, Ben wouldn't struggle with the weight, but yeah, I'm not sure, I think he might be an axe man. I think he might be like a knuckle duster man. Or like one of those, I don't know what they're called, you know the ball on the end of a chain with spikes on it, just like charging towards you with a cocktail in his other hand. This is a fun game, what would be my weapon? Do you think you're hand to hand combat or combat at a distance? I think I'm combat with passion, like get angry. Yeah, but you'll get yourself killed, that's my worry. Yeah, but I'm not very, am I calm under pressure? Are you front line or are you like? Because I feel like I'm front line, not in a boastful way, just in a like, this is fucking scary, therefore I've got to conquer it way. Like in an idiotic way, really. And I think Ben is front line, I feel like you're a bit smarter than both of them. I'm also, yeah. Are you an archer? Yeah, maybe. Trebuchet? I don't know what that is. It's that like massive thing, they wheel it out on wood, and it's like a catapult, it's got a massive rock in one end, and when you flick the thing, it launches a rock at the castle. Or a person, maybe you could be it. Oh yeah, they launch dead bodies, or live bodies if you want, but that's fucking mental. See, you are the Trebuchet person. Look at my foot. George, the dog is chewing Hannah's feet. Hannah? Arthur's feet. Georgie. Hey, he's used to chewing Hannah's feet, that's for sure. And she doesn't notice. Hey, come here. This is making for a great episode, George, thank you. So, yeah, he sent me a sword. I don't know how he got it. What an epic birthday present as well. Oh, honestly, like, it's my favourite present, and I can say that this year, because Hannah didn't get me a present this year, because we went to Borneo. So, actually, I've had some fucking ace presents this year, and some weird ones. It's amazing when you get a present, and you're like, who sent me this present? My brother and sister-in-law got me Wacky Races boxer, and I loved that when I was a kid. I had a shirt to go with it, a Wacky Races shirt. In a box, as in video? DVD, not video. I don't know. I don't know when you were watching it. You just said, I used to love it. Yeah, I didn't have the boxer when I was a kid. It was on telly. Okay, I don't know what it is, so. Do you know who Dick Dastardly and Muttley are? Penelope Pitstop? Nope. Peter Perfect. From Horror at Home? The Antelmob? No. What is it? A cartoon? It's Creepy Coop. Yeah, it's a cartoon, and every episode, there's all these different race drivers, and they're all weird characters. And Dick Dastardly and Muttley are the main characters, but they always try and cheat their way to win, and so they never win. And the outcome is, the lesson for the kid is, you can't cheat your way to victory. Okay, so like Scooby-Doo, when the bad, it was always the person after. Yeah, and very often, when they're not cheating, they'll be in the lead, and then they'll try and set a trap for the others, and it backfires, and they end up falling into their own trap or whatever. So it's like, it's good. It's a good cartoon. It's made by the same people as Yogi Bear and stuff like that, so it's a bit of a classic. And it's funny, it's got adult humour in it. All the racing cars are different themes, so there's two cavemen in one, and theirs is like a rock. And then there's a group of monsters in another, and theirs is like a haunted house. It's just silly. But then, they got me a shirt that's got each of the vehicles on it. What, like one shirt for each? No, like. Oh, it's got all of them. Yeah, so it's like a Hawaiian shirt, but instead of flowers, it's got different cars on it. That was epic. My brother got me the original Turtles cartoon box set. I mean, there's a bit of a theme here, but that was fucking ace. Your DVD player's gonna be smoking. I don't think I've ever put a DVD in it. Who does that, mate? But it's happening. Are you gonna watch them, or are you gonna display them? No, these are for watching. They're not like collector's edition or anything. It's just stuff that I wanted. So, the actual thinking is, because I've got a nephew, and he's coming to the age when I started watching these cartoons, I can sit and watch them with him. Oh, that's sweet, yeah. Because he watches like Bluey or whatever, and it's good. And he watches Peppa Pig, and it's good. Peppa Pig? But it's like, I don't know. My cartoons were better. And you can enjoy them. Well, I wouldn't like the Looney Tunes box set for the same thing, like Bugs Bunny and Tweety Pie and stuff. And I appreciate they're probably a bit violent by today's standards. But it never did me any harm, man. Get him on COD next. Yeah, do you wanna play Grand Theft Auto? Joel, I'm three. I actually, Jason's nephew was telling me about going to his friend's house and playing, and I was thinking, well, I don't know if your mom knows about that. How old is he? He's like 10. Yeah, that's not cool. Or maybe they don't know what it is. Well, if you don't, I think that's poor parenting. You've just gotta do a quick Google search. The information's very available, yeah. Like, if you haven't heard of Grand Theft Auto, my nan's heard of Grand Theft Auto. She's in her 80s. Would she stop you playing it? She a cool nan? Or is she a regular nan? She's like the one pimping people out, driving around. No, she's not at all. She's very Shropshire, so. She might make you a jam sandwich to eat whilst you play. A jam cob. There's a funny story about my nan at the moment. This podcast is all over the shop, but she's got dementia. That's not the funny bit. Two funny stories. One, I don't really want to tell on the podcast, but I will. And the second, I think, is lovely. So the first one is she sent me a birthday card, a very inappropriate birthday card that she didn't realise was inappropriate. Why? Because the front said, do you remember when waking up stiff in the morning and when you open it, it said, was a good thing. What did she think? From my nan. What did she think in it? Well, she doesn't think anymore because her brain doesn't work like that. So she just picked the food? Yeah, but the worst part of that story is she ran it past my mum before it got posted to me. And she... And my mum thought it was hilarious. Okay, that's a good call from mum. It's funny, but embarrassing. The other one is, because my nan's regressed a bit because she's like struggling with her dementia, the other day she was found dying in the park with one of her mates on the swings. Oh. Because that's what they used to do when they were kids. Did they have a bottle of vodka? No. That was the dog, if anyone heard that. We might have to get him out of the room for the next recording. Yeah, probably should get back on track, but the point being that when we've mentioned it on the podcast before, we're not the main characters in our client's story. I'm not the main character in your staff story. George is desperately trying to get on. You can jump on, but I'm not. He wants you to lift him up. The fuss that this dog is making. Do you have anything to say, sir? George is in the podcast officially. Good lad. No, don't do that. So yeah, to get back on topic, yeah, it's about guiding people to their destination. That's what leadership is, running a business is, being a good husband is, being a good wife. What steps can you take to do that with your staff? What have you found the most effective? It's different for each member of the team. Yeah, I've done a lot of work on disc profiling and it's been so interesting. It sounds really boring. I'm not that much of a fan. I think to categorise people into four things is too basic. Yeah, no, that I agree with, but the analogy that she gave really helped me understand why sometimes you clash with certain people. I wasn't going to say that. You don't understand certain people. It doesn't necessarily mean colleagues. It doesn't. More like if you ask someone to do something, so like, for example, even like at home with Jace, like if I say to you, think of the colour green and I'm thinking of the colour green, what colour green are you thinking of? It's like a forest green. Just think of green. What is the colour that comes to mind? I'm trying to think what that colour is. It's in my head now because I just thought of green because you told me to do. The word green. Apple green. Okay. And I'm thinking of like a deep, dark forest green. Yeah. And so if I said to you, paint the wall green. To me, I'm like, I'm expecting forest green. I'm going to come in, it's going to be forest green. And you've painted it apple green. And I've given you the instruction in my head that it's like super obvious. And you've taken the instruction and done it. But it's just your context is different because you've had different life experiences and you just like a different colour green. And so that really helped me to understand that. Oh, okay. So sometimes I'll ask someone to do something and they won't do it. And I'm like, what? How how can you not understand this? It's like so obvious to me. And the way that she said that you should say like, see, you can't do this for every task in the business because it would not be profitable. But like, okay, can you just tell me what you think I've asked you to do so I can check you've understood my instructions clearly. Yeah, that's good. Like edge method. Yeah, educate, demonstrate, guide, empower. Yeah. Yeah. Because if you if you tell educating is telling someone what to do, demonstrating is demonstrating what you want. So in your case, I'd like the wall to be green. This is how I'd like you to paint it. And here's the paint. So now you know the colours, right? Guides, right? I'm gonna watch you have a go. Yeah, you're doing a great job. I'm gonna leave you to it empower. And that's how you avoid that. Now where I struggle with that. And it's a bit of a recurring theme deadlines. I don't know how to communicate with someone who doesn't understand deadlines how important the deadline is. Yeah. But anyway, back to your original point, how do you guide different members of the team to achieve different things? So we've had various characters here. So Evie doesn't work here anymore, left to be self employed, left on great terms. She was very much like a meticulous person. So she liked to do things in order at a steady pace and to a standard. She was never she like wasn't bull in a China shop at all. She was very like, detail oriented and calm. So to get her to push her boundaries, you kind of had to like in quite depth show her the path to that new destination. Because without every step along the way, she wouldn't take that step. Now that's not a slight on her at all. That's just the way her brain worked. Now with you. Normally, the best way to tell you you can't do something is to tell you to get you to do some is tell you can't. Yeah, I don't think this is for you. Sometimes you decide it's not for you and then decide to disprove yourself, which is something that's going on at the moment with people management. I fucking hate managing people. Next thing you know, get your appraisal form. I'd like to be able to manage people better. Which one is it? But I think I am better. But it's not what I love doing. But just but actually, I think I maybe do. Do you know what I find it hard is managing people is that, like you said, you can't force them to do anything. And I am like have high expectations of myself and my work. And you're managing people. You're like, if someone told me to do something, I'd fucking do it. So why aren't you? And then it's hard to compute that. But then other people are like when people tell me to do something, I do the opposite. And you have to do it as a leader, you have to be able to deal with that. And you need all the people. Yeah, you need to have 10. Yeah, it can't be like, client B rings up and doesn't doesn't want to speak to me or you because we're too direct. And we're like, well, sorry, all 10 other people here are direct as well. Yeah. Sorry, we haven't got someone for you. Go fuck yourself. It doesn't work. Yeah. And so yeah, I've had to like learn different ways to try and understand people and try and help them get the best out of themselves. Certainly you, Evie, we had an employee called Ben, I felt like I really could get the best out of you. And all three of you are quite different characters. We've had other employees where I was like, banging my head against the wall. It was like, it doesn't matter what I say, you just look at me with a vacant expression. And it was like, maybe we're just not compatible as humans. It was like, you, everything I say, I think to you sounds like bollocks. And everything you say to me also sounds like bollocks. So how are we going to resolve this? Yeah. And then I've met other people who were like, it's not about compatibility. It's about they're not perhaps ambitious in that way. They just want to do the doing. They don't want to like get to the next step or crack the code. They just want to like come to work and do a good day's work and go home, which I don't relate to because that's not who I am. But I massively respect it. Every business needs those people. Yeah, everyone needs a soldier, don't they? Yeah. It's almost like you almost like don't want, well, I don't know, like exactly what happened with Evie. And I guess it's the risk with hiring ambitious people is that they're probably going to want to more, they're probably going to be like, I can do this. They're going to want to take over or leave. But then I want... I want Cobrake to be so good for the team that leaving is a really difficult decision and I think for Evie it was. I think she found it emotional but then like I could speak to her on any given day and our relationship is great. I'd say the same with Ben, like he left because he got an incredible offer in an environment very different to Cobrake and he wanted to see what that was like and I totally respect that. Sometimes people have left in the past where I felt like you're just on the cusp of promotion, you could be awesome and you've like taken the easy way out but then that's me impressing my personality on their behaviour because they might be like well it's just that's not important to me, I would like to go and do this thing and that's okay. So sometimes like the leadership thing is finding out what motivates people or what makes people feel like they have purpose because motivation's a bit wishy-washy, it comes and goes. You can't be motivated five days a week, that's not real life. So they've got to be excited about the outcome not necessarily the journey. Which we spoke about in the last podcast. Yeah and then also empowering them to do it and like you might have noticed because you've just done some leadership training but one of the things I do is show people how to do things, give them the tools to do it and then I just take a step back and see how they get on and I keep doing that over and over again and different people react differently. So you normally pick things up quite quickly and then you're like okay what's next? Other people regress into can you just show me again or can I just check this with you and some people just don't get it at all and so I have to keep like... I think I used to be a checker though until I got the confidence in my own skills but also like it's easier to say can you check this because then you diminish the responsibility. Which I'm happy to do like obviously our team right now is very very new still like yeah yeah so they're still like just learning a lot. Asking for reassurance. Which I'm happy like this isn't... Yeah and like the management part of that is like you can keep asking me for reassurance you can keep asking my opinion as long as you do the basics. Okay. You keep up your side of the bargain. What like the thing I find hard as well is that like I know my problem is holding everything close to my chest because I want to do it and I definitely the problem I have is like oh I could just do it in five minutes all right and like passing it over to someone else is like oh what if it goes wrong and then I've got to like explain to the client. That's the nature isn't it. You think I was self-employed to start with with no team and it all rided on me and then I had to get used to the idea. How was that initial horrendous. You started with one one member of staff and then. Me on my own then Fergus came on board and then I remember the first holiday I went on where I said to Fergus I'm going off comms. Did you? Yeah and you've got to do the next five days about me. Handled it pretty well. You scare. How tempted were you to get back on to. I think this is really insightful for like maybe like business people who were like yeah in that transition period or have staff and like have all these. I used to go on holiday. I remember the first time I went on holiday when Fergus was working here was to Canada and I was getting up four hours before Hannah every day to do some work and check all the emails and check all the comms and I was knackered when I got back off that holiday and so I just promised myself I'm never fucking doing that again. I don't think it's that helpful because you don't. So I did I well I did this to Scott when we when I was on the training day and I was like I'm going off comms because I'm here and I'm doing training and that's what I'm doing and I was and I like just quickly checked in on lunch and I just saw one message and I like immediately text and I was like just think about how you're applying to things and then I stepped back and I was like no that was actually fine like it's just because it wasn't the way I would have replied to it and I have more context about what's going on with that client but the way he handled it and I had to be like I'm sorry Scott like I actually should have just stayed off comms because you had it all handled but it just wasn't the way I would have done it and then I was immediately like what and so I think almost they're like just letting. Yeah you have to let people make their own mistakes which as the business owner is really hard because it feels like those mistakes are going to reflect on your reputation but you should have checks and balances in place that those mistakes can happen without becoming public. Yeah. So like oh you've done a shit job of that web page but fortunately we've caught it before the it's been launched. Or the actual you give the deadline. Yeah. Earlier than the actual. Yeah or like you're not quite writing this in a way that is gonna hook people in but the good news is it's not live yet. That's like you have to have checks and balances you have to empower people to make mistakes and then as people become more senior those mistakes do become more public and that is the nature of business like when I went to Canada I didn't have a business I had a job. Yeah. Because I couldn't leave it and it's still work so then a year later I went to New York and I went off comms and it was fine. Yeah the thing that I struggle with and most small business owners would struggle with is when you do go off comms it's quite hard for the business to grow in that period unless you've got like a business development manager or your team are really clued up on like referrals and upsells and stuff and so there is sacrifice there's always compromise. A bit like that with the Hannah story like my ego was screaming to be able to get to that viewpoint just for me also I desperately wanted to see my wife achieve that not just hear about it but was that that in hindsight was that the best thing for her or is it amazing for her to come home and be able to like tell her loved ones I did it and Joel wasn't there to help me. Fucking epic. A little bit sore for me but would it be better if you got like a million pound breakthrough on one of your clients and they upgraded to platinum or would it be better if I intervened and made that happen well it would be better if I didn't have to intervene even though my ego would quite like to have some credit for that like the there's still credit I can still take a step back and be like well I supported my wife for six months while she was ill and so that she was able to then go and do that thing or I trained Martha to get her to the place where she's confident enough to upgrade a client without my help. There's joy in that but just don't You don't have to be the main character. Yeah, you don't have to be the hero. The client's the hero. Right. Donald Miller says. He does, yeah. The hero's journey, you're the guide, not the hero. So, yeah. As the owner, you can't be in every key moment, and that's fine. And if you want to be in every key moment, you've given yourself a job, not a business. And I'm finding that now because I've got, I'm essentially running two and a half businesses at the moment with a third one on the way. And I just can't do it all. And so, I have to take joy in seeing it do it for itself. And I guess I'm like being a parent, being a husband, being a wife, being a friend. Being a good leader means lifting others up, not taking the credit for yourself. Very rarely does a football manager claim that they won the FA Cup. Yeah, but a football manager is the manager, right? I feel like as a business owner, you wear lots of different hats. It's tricky to find that balance, isn't it? Yeah, okay, well, then the owner of Manchester United, well, that's a terrible, the owner of Liverpool doesn't say, I won the Premier League. The team won the Premier League, and I own the team. And that's fine. That's reward enough. And that's just about taking your ego out of the equation, really. When you do, when you're damping that down, I was talking to someone yesterday about in business, it's not about being excited or full of fire, and it's not about being sad or stuck in the mud. It's about being level-headed and egoless, because that's where your best decisions come from. Detach it, how do you detach? Because I do think my ego drives me. It does me well sometimes, because I'm like- Your fear of failure, which is led by your ego, yeah. Pushes me to be better. I didn't care if I failed or not, I'm terrible. It's great fuel, but if you're ego-led, it can also be a horrible thing to trip up on. Whereas I get more joy out of seeing other people achieve things now than I do out of achieving them myself. It's really nice. How did you get to that place? I realised I had really high expectations of myself, and so when I achieve things, there isn't actually that much joy in it. I had this exact conversation with a client. Yeah, and so if there's not much joy in me achieving things, where can I find joy? And if that's in other people achieving things, which means I'm also achieving things, that's cool, because that's societal impact. Suddenly you're making people greater than they thought they could be, which is lovely. That's how I felt with Hannah. She did the trek without me, and now, in hindsight, I wouldn't change it. Did she give you a photo? Wonder what you could say then? Did you get a photo of the way she could pretend you were there? You live vicariously through Hannah. Yeah, I've put the photo of her on my LinkedIn and wrote a story akin to what we're talking about now.