1,000 Levers For Reducing Gun Violence With Rob Wilcox

The national conversation around gun violence tends to revolve around what laws should be passed next. But a lot of the work of reducing violence doesn’t happen in Congress. It happens in cities, hospitals, community organizations, police departments, schools, and increasingly through coordination between all of them.

My guest today is Rob Wilcox, the president and CEO of the Fund for a Safer Future and the former deputy director of the White House Office of Gun Violence Prevention.

In this episode, we talk about what it was like helping build such a critical office from the ground up, how he tried to approach gun violence as more than just a legislative issue, what happens when the federal government starts thinking about violence reduction as an operational challenge instead of simply a political one, and what the future of gun violence prevention should look like.

Rob Wilcox joined the Fund for a Safer Future in 2026 as its first President & CEO. He previously served as co-deputy director of the White House Office of Gun Violence Prevention in the Biden-Harris Administration, where he built a track record of turning evidence-informed strategies into real-world results. In that role, he led the implementation of the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act and helped to shape over 50 executive actions. Prior to his White House service, Wilcox served in a senior role at Everytown for Gun Safety, where he worked on state and federal legislative efforts. His personal connection to the issue—his cousin Laura was killed in a workplace shooting in 2001—has driven his commitment to evidence-informed solutions for more than two decades.

Fund for a Safer Future is a national network of over 30 funders pooling expertise and resources to help end gun violence. FSF is making grants to support policy, research, communications, and community-led efforts that save lives. The collaborative model brings more funders into the movement, lifts evidence-informed solutions, and backs the organizations working every day to keep communities safe.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I'm Jeff Asher. This is the Jeffalytics Podcast. The national conversation around gun violence tends to revolve around what laws should be passed next. But a lot of the work of reducing violence doesn't happen in Congress. It happens in cities, hospitals, community organizations, police departments, schools, states, and increasingly through coordination between all of them. My guest today is Rob Wilcox, the president and CEO of the Fund for a Safer Future, and the former Deputy Director of the White House Office of Gun Violence Prevention. In this episode, we talk about what it was like helping to build such a critical office from the ground up. How he tried to approach gun violence is more than just a legislative issue. What happens when the federal government starts thinking about violence reduction as an operational challenge instead of simply a political one? And what the future of gun violence prevention should look like. Let's get started. The guest today is Rob Wilcox. Rob, thanks so much for joining me. It's great to be here with you, Jeff. Thanks for inviting me. I'm excited, and you've been a guest that I've wanted to have on for a long time. So very excited to have you here. And you have a fascinating background. You have done a lot. So my first question is: can you just sort of recite your background? How did you get to be here?

SPEAKER_01 1:04

Yeah, I mean, I honestly didn't get here by choice or with ambition. We had a family tragedy back when I was a senior in college in 2001 where a cousin was shot and killed. It really made me want to just do my part uh to try to contribute to reducing violence in this country. I tried to bring my experience growing up in Brooklyn. My dad was in the special forces and a gun owner, and have tried to bring that perspective to a kind of lifetime of work on this issue of gun violence reduction. And, you know, I started out not in a glamorous job where we got to know each other, Jeff, at the White House, but, you know, answering the phones at the front desk for a nonprofit. And I've just tried to do my part along the way. And that's included being a lawyer at a big New York law firm and serving on the boards of smaller organizations and then doing policy work for about a decade and helping Senator Chris Murphy negotiate the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act and then getting tapped to work in the White House Office of Gun Violence Prevention by President Biden. And where are you now?

SPEAKER_00 2:02

You're telling me about the work you're currently doing.

SPEAKER_01 2:06

Yeah. So uh a few months ago, I started a new position as the president and CEO of the Fund for a Safer Future. That's a donor collaborative with 35 philanthropic members uh that are pooling their resources to help contribute to policy development, programmatic work, and partnerships that will reduce gun violence in all its forms, from suicide prevention, community violence, intimate partner violence, mass shootings. And it's it's really exciting to be part of a collaborative that makes about $10 million a year in grants, but has members that contribute another 80 to 90 million. And so that's that's really game-changing to get those dollars flowing to evidence-informed programs and policy development.

SPEAKER_00 2:47

So you're given a job at the White House. I want to hear what is that like? Like what does that feel like to get that? What does it feel like to work at the White House? And then what does it feel like to work at the White House in an issue that is not well defined? It's sort of like a here's your issue, go, go do it. It's not like you've had decades of somebody else doing that issue before you.

SPEAKER_01 3:06

Yeah, there no one gave you a handbook or a guidebook when you show up. It is a really intense place to work, but it also has the potential to do so much good. And you don't, it's one of those positions that you don't even know is out there until it happens. Um, you know, I was on vacation with my family in Delaware, and the person I'd been working with at the White House for years to give policy advice to called me up and said, um, you know, the president wants to start an office of gun violence prevention. And the first thing I said to her, Jeff, was, Congratulations, you are gonna do so much good with that office. And and then she said to me, the, you know, the president wants to know if you'd be, if you'd consider serving. And, you know, that's a moment that I'd never planned for, I'd never worked for, that wasn't kind of the thing I was reaching for. I was just trying to play my part. And it really takes your breath away to have that type of opportunity. And then it was surreal, honestly, after going through the interview process, they had a a rose garden ceremony to announce this office. And I was there with Steph Feldman, our director, my co-deputy Greg Jackson. We had our families there. We had all these incredible leaders there. And you're sitting in the rose garden realizing they're talking about like the work that you're gonna do. And the president made it very clear what our job was to fully implement the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act, to maximize the benefit of that history. The second was to come up with new executive actions for every agency. Uh, the third was to build new state and local partnership and to enhance this work. And lastly, he said, develop a gun violence emergency response system because we have FEMA show up when there's a hurricane or a tornado, but we didn't have a full federal government response when there was a mass shooting or a concentration in community violence. Uh, and so he announced that. And it was surreal like to be sitting there and to hear how far we have come as a movement, as an issue, that we were getting this kind of prominent place in the administration. And what happened was after the event, the president and vice president left, and we hugged our families and they left. And we thought we had to leave, but uh Secret Service said, no, no, sirs, you can stay. You have the right color badge now. And before we knew it, the whole rose garden was packed up. Uh, the lemonade was gone, the chairs were gone. And Greg and I were just standing there and we we kind of realized that like that this office was gonna be what we made it. And so we were overwhelmed, and it's hard to imagine what you're gonna do. And then the next day, you end up going to a really fancy conference room that was used to negotiate treaties, and you start filling out HR paperwork and like you're figuring out your beneficiary and all these things, and you're like, oh my gosh, this is just a job. It's like a regular job. And and then it turns on its head again, and that that evening we're called and and we're told that there's gonna be a cabinet meeting in a week, and the vice president and president will challenge each agency to do more on this issue, and that it was up to us to kind of really be thoughtful about proposals, ideas, policies that that each agency could do. So we just got to work, taking our years of experience, our trust in each other and in steph to develop a kind of robust all-of-government approach to how to reduce gun violence in all its forms. Because the president was clear it's not just about homicides and assaults, it's about suicide and mass shootings and unintentional shootings and domestic violence. So we had a big job, but you know, it's one of those things where you kind of realize that if we're not going to step up and take those jobs, who else will?

SPEAKER_00 6:20

And so, having done this for a few years within the White House, what is your sort of post-mortem look at all of this? What works, what doesn't? If you were put in the same spot all over again, what would you do differently? What would you do at exactly the same?

SPEAKER_01 6:31

Yeah, I mean, I think the magic of working in the White House is not just what you could do as an individual. It's what you can activate across government. Now, in our tenure, we took uh 55 executive actions, administration moved billions of dollars into violence reduction, fully implemented the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act. None of that could have happened with just the four of us in our office. It was about the partnerships you build within the White House in different departments, intergovernmental affairs and federal affairs and communications. And it's about the agencies. And I think that's one of the kind of lessons I learned was that's your team, that's your power, is the folks that you can unlock to do good work across the federal government who hadn't always seen themselves as part of that solution or hadn't been reaching to work on it because it was always framed as maybe it's just about passing this law or doing this particular policy. When in fact, I think what what I learned and what we've seen on violence reduction is it takes a really broad approach that has prevention strategies, it has intervention strategies, it has accountability strategies, and it has recovery strategies. And in each of those, there's policies and there's programs and there's partnerships. And you could only activate fully if you really have a full team across federal government, as well as partnerships outside of government at the state and local level and community with folks like you. I mean, the truth is like we were looking at your data every day to give ourselves a reality check of like what was happening actually in cities and how the work was being felt. And so that was a big lesson. And the second big lesson was you have to have a broad lens and you have to be focused on the outcomes you're trying to achieve with using the best evidence you have to develop solutions and helping agencies be able to execute them.

SPEAKER_00 8:19

And so, sort of taking this down a level from your experience at the White House, working kind of down the chain, are there things that you were guys were proposing or that you have wished you could have proposed, but for whatever reason couldn't? What are the things that cities should be doing right now based on that experience that maybe they're not doing as much of or they're not uh doing at all? I mean, look, specifically for gun violence reduction.

SPEAKER_01 8:43

Yeah, like we've seen a historic reduction in violence. I mean, your work has shown it. The Council on Criminal Justice research showed that you know, cities have seen a 44% reduction in violence since 2021. City's chiefs just put out kind of their data. So there's a lot happening that's right. And and I think it all goes back to that massive spike in violence we saw in 2020 and 2021 and what the response was. And the response was let's not pull one lever, but let's pull a thousand levers. Let us move money into state and local government and community through the American Rescue Plan so that we can invest in community violence intervention, so we can invest in law enforcement, so we can build state and local offices of violence prevention to have government infrastructure that can address this issue. Let's think about the laws on the books and how we can be implementing them in a way that will make a tangible difference. You know, for example, one of the things that had changed was we'd seen these ghost guns become a real weapon of choice for gun traffickers. And the recovery of ghost guns, which are unserialized firearms that you could put together through kind of kits and nearly finished parts, were flooding our cities because they were so easy to traffic. And what we did, what the administration did, was actually just regulate that industry as the law intended. And that's not my opinion. That is the US Supreme Court's opinion and a seven to two opinion that said it was fully appropriate the way that we regulated the ghost gun industry. And, you know, the result was the largest ghost gun company didn't want to play by the rules and get a license. They went out of business. When it came to gun trafficking, we used the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act to nearly quintuple gun trafficking prosecutions, using data to focus on the way illegal guns were moving from source to crime scene. We invested in crime gun intelligence centers to enhance the use of NIBAN and gun tracing to build better leads so that we can improve the clearance rates for homicides and nonfatal shootings. At the same time, we deeply invested in community violence intervention, the folks who are on the front lines in community who are trying to intervene prior to violence to prevent retaliation, to prevent conflicts from becoming deadly. And we see that both kind of with street outreach in hospitals, with cognitive behavioral therapy. And that was invested in at scale like we'd never seen. And we saw partnerships. And I think that was just another critical piece where our health systems, our school systems, our community-based organizations, our state, local, and federal partners all kind of saw themselves as on the same team. And that ecosystem of partnership enhances the work in a way that no individual can do. Because you need your health systems in a city working together to share data and to run hospital violence intervention programs. At the same time, you need your school leaders thinking about how do we prevent guns from getting in the hands of our students who bring them to school? How do we help our students recover who've been exposed to violence? And we need our cities then and now really using their data to understand not just where the violence is, but where are our solutions and how is that moving so that we can implement solutions quickly to stop problems before they escalate. And so if the advice that I that I give to mayors now is and states is like, let's keep running that playbook. And I think it starts with one, having a really strong office of violence prevention at the local level, at the state level. And over the past few years, we've seen those multiply. There's 15 or 16 state offices of violence prevention. There's nearly 120 local offices. I think that is really an important new infrastructure that has to be supported. Second, we have to build our better data systems so that we actually are getting law enforcement data and health data to better to better understand where homicides are happening, where nonfatal shootings are happening, and that we can then layer on top of that where the investments we're making in homicide clearance rate and detectives and community violence intervention and victim services, so that we are matching our solutions in a very focused and targeted way to where the problem is occurring. And lastly, I think if I'm cities, it's it's keeping that big tech mentality. Even in with resources going down, we have to be investing in the things that are showing real promise of working. And we have to keep bringing partners to the table. So philanthropy and health systems and school systems all see themselves as part of the violence reduction movement. Um and I think it's really possible. And Jeff, it's not hypothetical because as you've shown, the reductions are still happening. And they're not happening by accident. They're happening because we're seeing continued work that is comprehensive at the local level that is sustaining what we've seen.

SPEAKER_00 13:11

Yeah, and they're happening at a rate that at any point in the last 60 years would have been the fastest ever. And now we're almost year four of the fastest decline ever. Like I like your phrasing of pulling a lot of levers, because I I normally call it of like we threw a lot of crap at the wall and some of it stuck. I think that's a lot more artful of pulling levers rather than throwing mud at the wall. Question that's always on my mind is You said crap. Crap, you know, I don't want to get an expletive filter on this one, so there's other things we could say, but yeah, it's the same concept. So the question that always sort of stems from this is the data's very clear, the work is very clear. People don't always believe it. Is there a way to get people to believe this, to communicate it more crystal clearly? Or is this just something that it takes a while for the good news to spread and eventually people will believe it, but just not as it's happening?

SPEAKER_01 14:02

I think a few things, Jeff. And I know you called it crap and mud, but I would say what we tried to make was data-driven and evidence-informed decisions to support policies and programs that would be effective. The truth is that year-to-year violence change doesn't change the way we've experienced violence in our lifetimes. And I think the conversation about perception, and I love how you're leading it, you have to take into account that if you've experienced violence in your family, amongst your friends, on your block, even in your city, those scars don't go away with reductions. That pain doesn't go away. I know you and I've met more survivors that I can count.

SPEAKER_00 14:39

And like that mother's grief never sort of taking it on the other end, because there's always a place that's seen the outlier. You know, every murder's going down into 80% of cities, that means 20% are seeing an increase. If you're like a mayor Scott and you've set these goals, it's hard. You don't exactly know what's gonna work. Sometimes you're not gonna succeed to hit your goals. What's the best way to communicate that concept of this is hard, we're trying. Failure doesn't mean failure, it just means we have to keep trying. Or did I just answer the question? So, what what are the best strategies to combat either misinformation or disinformation regarding gun violence when you've got a situation where you know the something happens, violence falls, and the politician turns to the thing that was happening at the moment, or the public wants to believe that it's just because of non-reporting or whatever reason that the truth is not believed. How do we fight that as a strategy?

SPEAKER_01 15:37

Yeah, look, I think there's three things to do. I think one is we have to improve our understanding of what really contributed to these reductions year after year after year after year. And that's not an easy project. I think the challenge for our researchers is that it's not about what one individual program did in one individual neighborhood to reduce violence. It is what are the contributing factors to a national trend looking across jurisdictions. And that's hard work. And I think it begins with just building a good foundation of our understanding. And that's bringing together an interdisciplinary group that has different academic backgrounds and different perspectives, and is able to actually look at what all went into the work of violence reduction in 2021 and 2022, three, four, five, and actually start to assess well, what is likely to have contributed to violence reduction, what's unlikely, what's promising. And it should then really then try to delve into deeper individual research projects to understand what happened when we really attacked the iron pipeline, the gun trafficking pipeline with gun trafficking prosecutions and straw purchasing prosecutions and holding gun dealers that were most closely tied with illegal guns responsible. What did it mean when we regulated the ghost gun industry? What did it mean when we invested resources in crime gun intelligence centers and supported law enforcement to improve clearance rates for homicides and nonfatal shootings? What was the effect of a national trend of investing in community violence intervention or victim services? Uh and I so I think there's an immediate need of like, let us actually try to build the right foundation for what went into this and then some real research that should be diving deeper. That's not easy. I don't pretend that it is, but I think it's necessary because to see reductions at this scale for this length of time should force us all to want to answer the question of what contributes to the thing that we're all seeking, which is a safer future. And it's not just for community violence. We've seen reductions in mass shootings year over year. And so we have to dive deeper into what is helping us get to the place that we are all trying to get to. Number two, I think it's we have to keep up the work of sustaining, taking what we think has been effective and really doubling down on investment. And that could be into offices of violence prevention, it can be into building the right crime gun intelligence center and homicide and non-fatal shooting review teams. And it certainly is in investing in community violence intervention and victim services. And lastly, it is how are we communicating? And that's about messenger, it's about medium, and it's about message. And I think we too often think that we can tell a national story with national spokespeople, when in fact, I think the most credible folks are those who are close to the community. And we have to be lifting up the voices of those who are doing this work in community and locally so that they're telling the story of how they've contributed. But I think part of the issue of why we don't break through on these reductions is that everyone goes to the thing that they done first. They say, This is what I did, this is responsible. And I think we should get more comfortable, all who want to see this safer future. And I think that is a broad swath of saying, this is what's happening. These are the things that we think went into this, because this is actually what occurred in history. And here's the role that I played. Here's the policy I worked to implement. Here's what my unit did to solve nonfatal shootings, here's what my health system did to set up hospital intervention programs. And I think that's a different way to think about how we communicate on these reductions, is we should start with the big collective effort and then move to the thing that we did, as opposed to just trying to make it about the thing that we did and that that was what is deeply responsible. And so I think that's a different way to communicate. It's lifting up those local voices, telling those local stories, finding the right mediums to tell them in, and being willing to share credit with the different folks who've helped contribute to these reductions.

SPEAKER_00 19:29

So what does the future of gun violence prevention, of this work look like? I'm gonna fuse in with that a question I've been asking all of my guests is that is there a role for AI specifically in this? Have you thought through that as a as a potential contributor?

SPEAKER_01 19:44

I mean, look, the the future is for the first time in history the the issue of gun violence prevention isn't hypothetical. It's not in a white paper. It's not kind of what advocates would would ask for. It's reality. I mean, what we saw in the administration that I worked for was us pulling a thousand levers that were informed by the evidence and data to actually govern for gun violence prevention. For literally the first time in our history, we governed for gun violence prevention. And we did it through improving data systems, like at the CDC, which produced the first ever national resource on firearm homicide and suicide that gets you down to the zip code level with only a three to four month lag. I mean, that is so much faster and more localized than what we'd ever seen through incorporating the data that you were, Jeff, responsible for unearthing and incorporating that into our decision making, for helping Nibers to make sure that we actually are bringing in information on non-fatal shootings and incorporating those recommendations. We did it through policy implementation when it came to regulating ghost guns or gun trafficking or machine gun conversion devices, maximizing our background check system, improving our crime gun intelligence. We did it through investing in the right kind of programs in community violence intervention and victim services, as well as larger investments into local government. And we did it through partnerships. And I think when you ask about the future, we don't have to live in the hypothetical. We can live in the reality of that comprehensive approach. And maybe a governor or a mayor or even a president doesn't want to do all those things, but gosh, that gives you a lot to choose from if you want to attack this crisis. And I think the worst thing we can do is going back to the mentality of like, let's just go pick the one thing. Let's just go do this one thing. This is the thing. And I say that not as a researcher or an academic who might say, well, this is the one thing, but no one has, in fact, told me that yet, if it was this one thing. I don't think they ever will. And I think that is the mistake we see in debates is we always try to reduce it to this is the one thing. Instead of telling people, like, which is what I actually think they want, is we're doing all the things. We're doing the prevention, we're doing the intervention, we're doing the accountability, and we're doing the recovery. And I think that is our future is we lean into all of it. And that's about the right gun safety laws and implementing them responsibly. It's about the big community level prevention work in terms of cleaning and greening space. And making sure we have educational opportunities for youth and economic opportunities. It's about the targeted intervention for those who are most at highest risk for committing acts of violence. And it comes through the accountability of solving homicides and shootings and the recovery of victim services. That playbook is no longer a hypothetical. It is so real. And I saw it firsthand. And we could be running it and innovating on it everywhere. And if we do that, we have a chance to sustain this fragile progress. And that's my belief of what we saw last year. And to your question on AI, I have been thinking a lot about it. It is a really excellent question. And I think there's a few ways that AI can be helpful. One is there's a lot of databases when it comes to violence, its effects, and how it's showing up that we need help assessing better in real time and vetting. And we have to be thinking about law enforcement data and health data and how do we synthesize this large amount of input into something that is kind of usable for policymaking and decision making. I don't think you can ever separate an expert like you or others who are looking at the data, ensuring that it is correct and accurate. But I do think AI can help us leverage large data sets to get some better insights. Number two, I think there's issues that come with gun trafficking or emerging firearm threats where AI could be of advantage. And I'll name two. One of the last things we did was try to focus on the proliferation of these machine gun conversion devices. These are small parts that attach to a semi-automatic handgun. They make it into a machine gun. Some research has shown that that is keeping our homicide numbers high. And I think that's important, Jeff. It's like even though we're seeing these declines, like a city like Chicago think thought that, you know, maybe a quarter of their homicides were due just to these devices. So how are they getting here? One is that they were being illegally imported from China. Chinese gangs were putting websites up that sold them directly to consumers. You know, our administration focused on shutting down those illegal websites because they were just they were available through a Google search. You could go Google machine gun conversion device or what they're called lock switches, and you could find a website like it's Amazon and you could be ordered into your house. The administration took steps to investigate and shut those down. We shut down 350, but it was an individual looking for websites, taking screenshots, capturing that evidence. I actually think there are tools we can build with AI that would more effectively scrape the website for websites selling those illegal products so that we're not playing a game of whack-a-mole, but we in fact are more effectively using technology and reducing the costs to identifying and shutting down sites like that. The same thing goes for how do you prevent the illegal 3D printing of these switches, the other way that they're showing up. And I think AI can play a big role in developing the technology technology solutions that can prevent the 3D printing of those illegal machine gun conversion devices. That's not hypothetical. That's a project we started that the Fund for Safe for Future continues to support, is the development of the technology. And it's so close, Jeff. Like I literally have seen the prototypes, like it is right there that we can build in through uh sequence analysis and functionality analysis, along with AI, the ability to basically put an antivirus software into a 3D printer or into slicer software to prevent the 3D printing of an illegal Glock switch. And that's like those are pretty remarkable, tangible solutions that would be very difficult to do without the power of AI.

SPEAKER_00 25:23

That's a great answer. And I think the most productive answer I've heard of like very specific is the ways to use it. So uh I really appreciate you hearing you telling us that. My last question is you've lived such an and I'm not like this isn't a postscript to your life or career, but you've done so much so far.

SPEAKER_01 25:39

What career advice would you have for somebody that is interested in making a difference or in just doing something interesting in the in their I I think there's a few things that I've learned along the way that I'm happy to share. And I'm definitely no expert, but it's always be willing and ready to play your part. I think do the thing in front of you and do it as well as you can. Uh, and then you'll get another opportunity and another one after that. But it's about being willing to play the part that you have in that moment. The second is be good to your team and thrive in a team and realize that success doesn't just come from the person on top, but it's the person all the way down below and everyone in the middle. And that real success comes from everyone on the team doing their best at the part they're playing. And the third thing is there's really no secret. It's just hard work. It's being willing to kind of push yourself to become an expert in your particular craft, be it policy or data analysis or research or communications, whatever it is, the thing that you have the talents for, try to become the master of and then continue to put the work in. When I was working at the law firm, I remember the most senior partner who's literally one of the best litigators in in the country, telling me that, you know, everyone who's preparing for trial is going to do 80% of the work because that's what's most likely to come up. And the challenge is can you push yourself to do that last 20%? The things that are most unlikely to happen, but almost certainly one of those things in that bottom 20% will come up. And if you're prepared for that opportunity, then you can be successful. And that literally is the difference between success and failure, are sometimes as thin as that like one moment, that one opportunity. And so, you know, I think that's the advice I would give. And and the other, the other thing is kind of what I said at the top, Jeff. It's like people can see you or me now and think about like the biggest accomplishments we've had, but it's all of those quiet moments of hard work that go into it. It's answering the phones at the front desk, it's taking those entry-level jobs, uh, and it's doing all of those things that aren't seen. And it's the hard work behind the scenes that goes into uh a successful career. So I guess that's kind of what I I probably offer to someone, as well as as well as to have optimism in the thing you're doing. That's probably the last and most important. Have optimism in the thing you are doing that you if you don't believe you're gonna be successful in the thing you're doing, you're never gonna convince someone else of it.

SPEAKER_00 27:51

That's great. Well, Rob, I really appreciate your coming on. This has been a fantastic conversation, and I can't say thank you enough. So thank you. And uh hopefully we'll cross paths soon again.

SPEAKER_01 28:01

Uh I'm sure we will, Jeff. And and hopefully next time we'll have uh, you know, not an awkward hug.

SPEAKER_00 28:07

We we we didn't tell that story, so we'll uh we'll leave the listeners' imaginations to that one.

SPEAKER_01 28:12

Great, Jeff. Thank you so much for having me. I've really enjoyed talking to you and and digging into some of these issues.

SPEAKER_00 28:17

Rob, that was awesome. Thank you so much. Thanks for listening to the Jeffalytics Podcast. Be sure to subscribe and to learn more, head on over to ahdatalytics.com for more information and previous episodes. If you like what you heard, please leave a glowing review, which will help others to discover the show. Until next time, I'm Jeff Asher.