The Land Bank Landscape with Brian Larkin, Christina Kelly, and Dan Kildee

What started with a handful of land banks you could count on one hand has grown into more than 350 across the country, reshaping neighborhoods and restoring communities from the ground up.

In this episode of Philanthropy Speaks, host and Community Foundation of Greater Flint President and CEO Dan Kildee talks with Brian Larkin, director of the National Land Bank Network at the Center for Community Progress, and Christina Kelly, director of community impact at the Genesee County Land Bank Authority, about the movement Dan helped start right here in Flint more than two decades ago.

From the transformation of Chevy Commons into the centerpiece of Michigan's first new state park in 40 years to the 10,000 demolitions that have cleared blight and reduced crime across Flint neighborhoods, discover how land banking has evolved from a local idea into a national model for community revitalization. Plus, Dan, Brian, and Christina dig into what's next, including affordable housing, home repair, and the tools still needed to help every community thrive. Visit cfgf.org, thelandbank.org, or communityprogress.org to learn more.

Transcript

christene kelly 0:00

23 years looking back and, nothing gives me more joy than seeing this Chevy Commons become kind of the centerpiece of the first state park in 40 years, and, it's gonna be right in Genesee County. So it's... I'm incredibly proud of it and pleased.

Dan Kildee 0:18

Welcome to Philanthropy Speaks. This is the podcast where Flint and Genesee County community voices lead the conversation. In each episode, Philanthropy Speaks through lived stories, through local leadership and the people building a stronger community. I'm your host, Dan Kildee. I'm the president and CEO of the Community Foundation of Greater Flint. So let's hear what philanthropy has to say today. So this topic, to be completely transparent, is one that I alone could talk about forever and ever. I helped start the Genesee County Land Bank, starting back in the early 2000s. 2004 is when we actually formed the land bank under the new land bank law. but we were trying to deal with a really specific problem in a very specific place. We were trying to solve the problem of blight and abandonment in my hometown of Flint, Michigan. And what we didn't know then is that what we were creating was something that was, unique, and it became a model for communities all across the country to deal with the problems they have in their own environment, the way we had that problem with blight and abandonment and population loss. I also founded the national organization that was intended to expand on the work that we did here in Flint. It's the Center for Community Progress. I was one of the founders. I was the first CEO of that organization, which now supports land banking all across the country. today I get to have a conversation with two people who are carrying that work forward, one at the local level right here in Flint, and one at the national level. So for me, it's really a full circle moment. I'm pretty excited about this conversation. So let's welcome our two guests. Brian Larkin is the director of the National Land Bank Network at the Center for Community Progress Christina Kelly is the director of community impact at the Genesee County Land Bank, which acquires, develops, and sells vacant and abandoned properties the way we envisioned a long time ago. Christina is somebody that I worked with when I was, the county treasurer and the president of the land bank itself. So it's good to have both of you here. It's gonna be a good conversation. So even though I teed it up a little bit, I wonder if each of you might just explain your path that led you to being involved in this work. Brian, let's start with you.

Brian Larkin 2:30

Thank you for that, Dan. so my path was one where I think I was one of the first people to come right out of my undergraduate studies and get introduced to the field of land banking. So when I graduated from, college, I was in Atlanta, Georgia, and really wanted to get home. And my mother, who's a employee at the Community Foundation of Greater Flint-

Dan Kildee 2:52

She is

Brian Larkin 2:54

she tell me, "Hey, there's this opportunity to, do a LISC AmeriCorps at the land bank." So I said, "Sure." Did I know what LISC AmeriCorps was? No. Did I know what a land bank was? No. But I knew I wanted to come home and do this kind of work. I walked in the front door, no idea what I was getting myself into, and had a chance to really, create the next two decades of my career. the discovery of being able to work in spaces that, are in need of revitalization, to be close to a community that I care deeply about, and to support people to have access to make a difference in their lives and their communities that they see every day, it's been an amazing journey. And so I've really thoroughly enjoyed from the time I started the Genesee County Land Bank through my entire career.

Dan Kildee 3:40

Cool. Christina, whatever possessed you to join this land bank movement? This... And it was really in its early stages. We didn't even know what it was at that point entirely when you came along.

christene kelly 3:51

That's right, Dan. And, I have to say I'm grateful to you, for introducing me to this work. I would not, probably be connected to any land banking if it weren't for you. And, I was at the University of Michigan at the time. I am from the Chicago area, and I came to University of Michigan for graduate school, for a degree in urban planning and environmental policy. And I finished my degree and was working as a consultant, doing brownfield redevelopment, working with abandoned contaminated properties throughout the state. With a private consulting firm and, was still connected to the University of Michigan and this job rolled out, and it was the perfect fit for me, in that it included working with abandoned contaminated properties, which I had, focused in on in my studies and the work. And it was also about thinking about new ways. How do we think differently about what to do with this land that the market has left? Yeah. And, how do we find recovery here? What do we do? How do we change the system? And that's what most attracted me to the position, and I never imagined 23 years later, I would still be with the same organization and honestly still working in Flint.

Katelyn 5:05

Yeah.

christene kelly 5:05

just because I'm not from Flint, and, I've really come to love this community, and it's a remarkable place in that there's so much drive, commitment, passion for, community and, restoration and connection, and it's been an incredible experience, with this position.

Dan Kildee 5:26

Yeah. So 23 years. Yeah. I'm curious from your point of view, 'cause I've watched it. communities change, the conditions change, the market changes, the tools develop. What's different now than what it was with sort of land banking generally, but even with the Genesee County Land Bank? How has it changed in the last couple of decades?

christene kelly 5:45

Yeah, that's a great question. In so many ways, the core of what we do is the same, right? we set up the system and structure, early on, and I think, you guided us here in, in saying how do we, accept inventories after tax foreclosure from the treasurer, and then what do we do to address the challenges on those properties that in many cases have been vacant and abandoned for years and all sorts of trouble. and then how do we bring resource to the table to address those challenges and reposition them for new use? And so the core of what we do is essentially the same. I think the main difference is the scale.

Katelyn 6:25

Yeah.

christene kelly 6:26

And it's more about the cumulative impact looking back over time, instead of doing, a few projects or engaging, a handful of groups in, in, in community-based property maintenance. Now it's just we're doing it at scale, right? So we've done development ourselves. When you were there, the Durant and the Barrage Hotel. the former Barrage and Shovin' the Hole kicked off, under your leadership. but we've also done so many other projects where we've either led the development like with Gatehouse, town homes, new rental units, but also projects where we are not the developer, right? Northland Food Market, Community Mental Health, the Center for Children's, Health right in downtown Flint where we do the heavy lift of cleaning up the blighted structures that are there and, dealing with the contamination present and then positioning them for reuse for some community good.

Katelyn 7:22

Yeah.

christene kelly 7:22

So it's over, in all, when you look at all the units, it's 640 units that we've created in housing in addition to these, community centers or assets. Burstin Field House, we cleared about 300 properties around that area, clearing blight, making way for, the expansion of a phenomenal center, for the community in Flint. So I would just say it's, more.

Dan Kildee 7:46

Yeah.

christene kelly 7:46

and the reach, with Clean and Green, we started that right at the start of the land bank. I think we had four or seven groups at the beginning, and now we have 70 this year.

Dan Kildee 7:56

Wow.

christene kelly 7:56

And it's, That's

Dan Kildee 7:57

fantastic

christene kelly 7:58

probably about 1,000 volunteers working to, clean up Flint neighborhoods, and it's not about cleaning up. Yeah. It's about concrete reductions in crime, right? Right. 30% reduction in crime citywide because of this work. So people say, "Oh, you shouldn't just be mo- Why are you wasting money mowing grass," right?

Dan Kildee 8:15

Right.

christene kelly 8:16

It's about stabilizing and uplifting a community and also reducing crime.

Dan Kildee 8:21

It's interesting because back, even back then, we were looking at data that showed that there was a clear correlation between, vacancy and abandonment and violent crime. I remember the study that Dan Immergluck did at Georgia Tech 25 years ago that showed that there was a really strong connection. the point that you are making is that, the land bank's role can change over time because the conditions change over time, and hopefully we build on our own successes. But also, they're, land banks are different from one community to the next. Brian, this is where you come in. I remember when we started our land bank, and then we got a, a small grant to expand another five land banks in the state of Michigan, and I thought to myself, "Wow, if we could end up with, half a dozen land banks doing this work, we've really created something," never realizing the flexibility of that tool was so broad that it could go almost anywhere in the country and have some kind of an impact. So that's your work, Brian. Yeah. talk to us a little bit about what's going on. how many communities across the country have some version of a land bank? How does the land bank landscape look?

Brian Larkin 9:23

Yeah. So Dan, one of the stories I tell when I'm, giving a presentation on land banks or kind of educating a group is that back when you started the Genesee County Land Bank, there were a handful of land banks in the country. I think, you probably could name them all. St. Louis, Cleveland, Louisville, Atlanta.

Dan Kildee 9:38

I

Brian Larkin 9:38

think that was about it. You could count on one hand. And, And

Dan Kildee 9:41

they weren't really doing land banking. Yeah.

Brian Larkin 9:43

so what's interesting is I, I had the chance, last month to go to Toledo for the Ohio Land Bank Association conference, and had the chance to hear from the mayor, who gave a talk.

Dan Kildee 9:52

Wade, Wade Kapszukiewicz.

Brian Larkin 9:53

Bingo. And he talked about... We were actually in the... We were right next to the restaurant where you guys all met. He-

Dan Kildee 10:00

Oh, wow.

Brian Larkin 10:00

He painted the whole story. Everybody's in the smoky, dark room, and we're planting plants. But one of the, one of the points, though, that he raised, and he said you, you presented to him like this, is that the transition when we're talking about the evolution of land banks, that transition in the early 2000s, while land banks existed before, it was moving from passive to active, and there was a need for explicit legislation to really open up these pipelines. So what we've seen since then, since the start of the Genesee County Land Bank, is going from a handful that you could count on one hand to today there are over 350 land banks across the country. There are n- 19 different states have some comprehensive enabling legislation, and while I know we won't get into... We won't bore your audience by getting into all the tools there, but that's the special sauce. Dan, that was one of the things that you really unlocked and as states recognized, hey, we could do more with this if we had the right environment. More and more states have followed suit. Of those 19 states, the Center for Community Progress has directly helped or written 18 of those, and they're doing a lot of amazing work. With the National Land Bank Network, we started this in 2021 because what we recognized is, Center for Community Progress had started with that entrepreneurial mindset. you started five, you went to, Cleveland, and then they call you in Syracuse, and they call you in LA, and you kinda go and spread the message. before you know it, we've got hundreds of land banks across the country, and it's not just individual conversations, it's a whole field.

Dan Kildee 11:23

Yeah.

Brian Larkin 11:23

And so now this field of practice that has been developed, with the National Land Bank Network, we're here to really advocate and kinda spread the message in what land banking looks like in the southeast versus in rural West Virginia versus in upstate New York. We've got land banking in all different types of places, but they're dealing with exactly what you said. They're dealing with the challenges of how do we turn this property into productive uses? What that looks like and the s-scale of that changes over time, but they're still continuing to do great work in various states.

Dan Kildee 11:50

It really does. it's so impressive to see, and I, I think back in those early days, and I realize that the principles basically apply the same everywhere. It's how do you use land in a way that maximizes its contributions to a better quality of life for the people in a community? And that can take lots and lots of different forms. I'm really proud of the fact that in Genesee County, some of the initiatives have shown the rest of the country how to do lots of different things. the demolition and, all that kinda stuff was sorta early. Some of the really interesting development projects, but one, Christina, that you pointed to earlier that I want you to go a little bit deeper on is, the Chevy in the Hole, the Chevy Commons. That first now state park we had a lot to do with that, with that initial land assembly, and actually with the capstone project that the graduate students at, University of Michigan, School of Architecture and Urban Planning did that kinda helped really point the way for this work. Talk a little bit about that effort and I think it's just a magically transformative project. We were the catalyst for it. We didn't actually do the whole thing, but it wouldn't have happened had the land bank not taken those early steps. Can you talk a little bit about that?

christene kelly 13:00

Yeah. it... This is one of my favorite projects now, of course, in retrospect, 23 years looking back and, that nothing gives me more joy than seeing this Chevy Commons become kind of the centerpiece of the first state park in 40 years, and, it's gonna be right in Genesee County. So it's... I'm incredibly proud of it and pleased. And, thinking back, how did this all get started? for me, shortly after I hired on at the land bank, we walked down to Chevy Commons, and walked the concrete slab, shop floor. And, it was weeds growing through the concrete and, pretty desolate, right?

Dan Kildee 13:40

It was pretty... It was bad. And it was a reminder of- Flint's past failures in a lot of ways. So it not only had an environmental effect it didn't not only have an effect on the market but the psychological effect, for people who grew up in this community and saw that once as a bustling place of commerce building cars and sending them out all over the world. We had this sort of constant reminder that's over, and it's gone, and that this is used land that has no value to anybody. And of course, you and me and others, we saw that differently. how did... what were those first steps?

christene kelly 14:13

Yeah, I think that's what you said when we walked down there. I'm not being from Flint, being from the Chicago area, this, this experience was very new to me. And it was very different to drive by the site verse standing in the center of it.

Dan Kildee 14:29

Yeah.

christene kelly 14:29

And then have you talking about it and pointing out the sit-down strike, the location of the sit-down strike, and the significance of that site to Flint's history and to so many people in Flint, right? Everybody has some kind of connection, to, to General Motors and often that site. Yeah. and which continues to be true, someone's grandparent or father or mother, some connection to that site. you kinda got me hooked early on just from that initial tour walking on the site, and then pointing out the significance of its physical location, right? As a planner, looking at pointing out Kettering University, on the one hand, University of Michigan Flint. Atwood Stadium was clearly visible from the site and Downtown Flint. you get these great views of the site from this kind of, indent or the, like a, a hole in the river-

Katelyn 15:21

Right

christene kelly 15:21

right along the river, and it's a pretty remarkable location, right? And so you said, "I think this is gonna be the centerpiece of Flint's revitalization. I think we have to do something about this site. Even though we don't... It's not a tax-foreclosed property, it's a, it's an important vacant and abandoned property, and we have to pay attention to it and think about how we're gonna give this new life. And so let's do it." So that's as a newly hired, planner with experience in brownfield redevelopment, I was in, right? And, the very next thing, I turned around, wrote an EPA grant. We got that. we did the River District strategy with support from the Mott Foundation that highlighted that corridor as a centerpiece. It mentioned a state park. we brought the graduate students in, from University of Michigan School of Landscape, Architecture. They did a beautiful design of these options. what are the constraints that are there? Using the public record, how much contamination is present, and how do we... What can we do about that? How do we safely redevelop it and deal with the contamination and create- Y- invite people back to that space in some way or another.

Katelyn 16:30

Yeah.

christene kelly 16:30

And they flushed out this vision of a potential state park and a general roadmap of how to do that safely. And through that, we could show the images and the visuals to residents. We could engage, "What do you think of this?" We could show it to partners, and, we formed the Flint River Corridor Alliance after the River District strategy. We had all these partners involved, and there was some momentum, right? It was an expensive project.

Dan Kildee 16:58

It was.

christene kelly 16:58

but we- I rem- had momentum.

Dan Kildee 17:00

Yeah, and I remember at the beginning thinking once we got the sense of what the cost would be that, wow, okay, this is gonna be a lot. But the thing I think most about that is not only is it c- has it completely transformed that landscape, not only has it provided, I think, a really big psychological boost to the community, it also shows that we can do big stuff. I think one of the problems in communities like Flint, and I've worked in lots and lots of places that have a lot of similar characteristics, especially when I was at the Center for Community Progress, is that there's this sense in many of the communities of defeatism because the history has been so difficult. And what we showed with that project is you can actually do something really big, even if it's gonna cost a lot of money, that money finds good ideas. It's not the other way around. And if you come up with those big plans, sometimes you can actually pull them off. And I'm, it's, I think of the many things that I look back on that I'm most proud of, I look at that because it's like a gift to the future. That's what I love most about it. It's a gift to the future. It'll be there long time after all of us are gone with kids playing around in that area, and it'll look better and different as it evolves. I'm thrilled about that. So I'm switching back to the national, landscape, Brian. we're talking about what this meant for us here, but what, what sells the land bank concept? When you go, 'cause I know you're doing what I used to do, getting on the road, going to lots of communities What gets them interested? how do you land the plane when it comes to a community contemplating whether or not a land bank makes sense for them?

Brian Larkin 18:33

So what's interesting is over the years, a lot has changed. A lot has changed in the real estate markets, a lot has changed in the conditions and demands of the community. but much has really remained the same, and one of the, Much of the challenge that we're looking to address remains the same, and one of the, stories that I tell, or one of the anecdotes that I lead with, is something I completely stole from you. Not even adapted- not even the... Like I literally, I've given it a name. I... So earlier this week, I was in, Charleston, West Virginia, and had a chance to talk at the Mountain State Land Use, Summit, and I led it off with a story about a nine-year-old girl named Jessica.

Dan Kildee 19:14

Oh, okay.

Brian Larkin 19:14

I gave her a name. I gave her... She's Jessica- That's good in the story. And I can remember it 'cause it's my sister's name, so I won't mess it up like, "Who's the fake girl?" But the nine-year-old girl, Jessica, as you know, Dan, she's coming out. She lives in her home. She's the bubbly, in the third grade, excited to be with friends and loves to play and have sleepovers. Her dad's a nurse. Her mom's a substitute teacher. They work hard. Her dad loves to mow his lawn and put stripes, mow stripes in his lawn. They've got a picket fence. But as I tell the story, you talk about what happens to the community around her when people start, stop investing. Now all of a sudden, Jessica doesn't want her friends to come over anymore. Now she's getting to the point where she doesn't want to ride the bus 'cause she doesn't want to come down and people to see her house where she leaves, so now she's a discipline problem 'cause she's tardy for school. She's no longer on that path and trajectory that she was there because of what the built environment says about our communities. And is it right for the people that are doing everything right, doing their best, to be forced to deal with those negative externalities? Yeah. When I make that case about why we can't let these properties sit, and how a responsible owner of last resort like a land bank can help with that, they're really here. They're really here, and that's been the story that you've been telling since the beginning.

Dan Kildee 20:24

Yeah, that's- And it's

Brian Larkin 20:24

still the case

Dan Kildee 20:25

it's a powerful sort of way to look at it. what does the world look like to the eyes of a nine-year-old child standing on their own front porch? And that's when it occurred to me that- You know, land banks or land use reform or all of the issues around land, it seems like we're talking about land. It's people and land. The way we measure, the way anybody can measure the effectiveness of these interventions, these land interventions, is the effect that it has on people. and so I think it's really important that we always remember that, and I'm glad you're taking that message out there because to me, it's the way to help people understand that we're not talking about some sort of abstract system of land disposition. We're talking about making life better for people who live in communities, and if this is a tool we can use to do that, we ought to use that tool as effectively as we can. But speaking of the tools that we've developed, it's been a quarter of a century since we started down this path. There's still some pieces that aren't there yet. Christina, I wonder if you might mention, and maybe Brian, you have observations on this as well, what's next? what else do we need in this space? What other tools would make the work more effective?

christene kelly 21:36

Yeah, that's a great question. And we definitely, we have come a really long way, right? I think there's so many things that, are worth celebrating, so many successes. And I think, what you were just talking about with the people, right? Things aren't good for everybody, right? I think there's a larger picture of how do we get well, well-paying jobs and some more security, and more affordability for homeowners renovating homes and such. we've cleared a ton of blight, 10,000. We've hit our 10,000 demo mark- Wow just recently. I remember

Dan Kildee 22:10

celebrating 500 like it was a big deal.

christene kelly 22:12

Yeah, 10,000. it's, I don't, it, demolition is definitely our last resort- when the property is so far gone that you can't renovate it. but then the vacant land that's left behind, there's costs associated with mowing those and maintaining them. And it is about creating safe, beautiful space for people to thrive, right? Now we know that maintaining vacant properties helps to not just, reduce crime. it reduces cases of child maltreatment- significantly, right? So funding for this work is often a challenge because these properties used to be owned by property owners who maintained those properties. land banks don't receive a sustaining source of funding to operate. so there's real challenges with how do we keep up the level of maintenance that's needed for human beings, for children to thrive, and for the market to thrive, right? I think that kind of sustaining resource for, uplifting community, uplifting, people as well as property that people live in. so I think that's, continues to be, a challenge. You know, exploring new things like using goats, right? Goats, we have a ton of problem with dumping- and, brush. And goats, we brought goats in last year to, to eat away at the buckthorn that, creates space for dumping, right? So how do we use different tools in small ways to help transform one neighborhood and then try it in another? But I think we need to go much bigger with some of these resources to support, Jobs, housing, neighborhood quality over time.

Dan Kildee 23:49

Yeah. Anything you see that is missing, especially as you look at the national landscape?

Brian Larkin 23:54

Yeah. So one of the interesting things, and I mentioned how much has changed, is that the tools, the tool of land bank is really built around, hey, when people are abandoning their properties, let's get into the hands of a responsible owner. And the way we identified abandonment, and still do, is tax foreclosure. But what have we seen since 2020? That the amount of tax foreclosures have really gone down because as the real estate market prices ratchet up. And so part of the logic there, and you even hear some conversations, there, there's debate in the field. You have conversations about like, "Oh, okay, it's time to... the land bank is done. It's served its course." But we've seen examples, even here in the state of Michigan, in, in, Grand Rapids. The Kent County Land Bank shut down its doors, closed shop because they had solved the problem. And guess what they just started two years ago? The Grand Rapids Land Bank.

Dan Kildee 24:39

Yep.

Brian Larkin 24:39

And so it's figuring out, okay, our tools right now help you get a specific amount of property in a certain way, really cost affordably and effectively. But I'm having communities who are coming to me right now who can show me pictures of boarded up properties, but they've got irresponsible owners. They've got outside investors. They've got people who are doing the bare minimum, but the people are still forced to live around those properties. And so some of the conversations right now are like, how can we extend beyond that? And I think at the Center for Community Progress, a lot of the tools that we put in is looking up the pipeline. What does it take to get responsible owners to pay it up so it could transition into land banks? When you have property that's costing on, board ups or you're having to send police out, how can we get those prices on the property so that the owner is responsible for paying for that, not the taxpayer? And when they don't pay it, we can get it more quickly into land banks. So a little more tools to really, robustly get their hands around the problem properties very quickly. I think there's conversations around what that looks like and moving up that pipeline so they can be ready to respond.

Dan Kildee 25:35

Great. So one last thing I wanna just have each of you offer thoughts on, and I'll just tee it up by saying this. The tools do continue to evolve. One of the pieces of our challenge, of course, here and all over the country, is the availability of affordable housing. We know that's a challenge. It gets in the way of our ability to grow our economy here, to not be able to provide those opportunities and to build wealth. one of the tools that I was exploring before I left the field was whether or not the land trust model, which can help create more access to home ownership, even if it's through a shared equity approach, might marry up well with the land bank notions. A lot of times people would get them confused. They would often introduce me as the godfather of land trusts, and I didn't have anything to do with land trusts. I'm... was a land bank guy. Can you talk a little bit about that and whether anybody of our partners around the country are connecting the land trust model to their land bank efforts?

Brian Larkin 26:30

Yeah, and I can say again, not much has changed. There's several times I've been called, "Hey, I need to talk to you because we wanna start a community land trust." And it's like they're not interchangeable. The way I, um, describe it is that they are looking to deal with the same, dysfunction, which is the private market is not responsibly creating healthy opportunities for homes, but they're dealing with it at opposite ends. So the land bank is dealing with it when people are abandoning it and not putting the right investment into their properties. Community land trusts are in places where people are jacking up prices to the places where people can't support to stay there and stay in those places. They are great when you have foresight to think about how these tools can marry and work together. We've got examples in Columbus, Ohio; Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania; Atlanta, Georgia, where there's different levels of cooperation. Some just have MOUs that are written that says, "Hey, land bank, you can get property relatively cheaply. Land trust, my biggest challenge is acquiring property. If we could have a relationship where you're getting the property for me that I need, then we can create home ownership opportunities that remain affordable." And for those who aren't familiar, the one of the main ways is the, permanent... They do a ground lease, a 99-year ground lease, and there's a control on how much you can sell it for to make sure that the next family that's needing those can stay in that place there. So they're working together in different various ways, but it's still pretty early in the space. I would say the example in Columbus, is the most, coordinated and comprehensive because they're one organization, and they are operating, and they leverage the tools as needed and moving in those spaces. But a lot of the conversations that I'm having today are a lot different than the conversations that were held 20 years ago. I think 20 years ago, the, metaphor I use is that there was a tidal wave for tax collectors across the country of properties that they weren't ready to receive. Now everyone's calling me about there's a lack, and there's an absolute need and demand for affordable housing. Land banks and land trusts can work together to make sure that there's an affordable pipeline of property that can be turned into affordable housing.

Dan Kildee 28:33

That's a really good point. What I was always curious about... Christina, I'm wondering if you guys have had any discussion about this. the land trust model works obviously effectively in those very high land value places, where the affordability barriers have really m- as much to do with the underlying cost of the land as it is with the cost of the improvements. We don't have that problem. The underlying cost of the land is pretty low. It's the cost of the improvements and the ability for people to finance acquisition and ownership of newly developed or redeveloped property that's the real cost. So the land trust model there might have more of a shared equity approach, related to the cost of construction and the value of the asset Any thoughts about how that might play out- Yeah right here at home where we have the low land costs, but high, challenges around affordability because of construction costs?

christene kelly 29:24

Yeah, I think it's, it's definitely worth exploring, right? Any tool that's out there that can help address, increased stability, affordability, is worth exploring, right? And I think you have to look at, what is the bigger challenge? the bigger challenge is to increase affordability, create stability, create an environment for investment, right? We want that in Flint. I think every community needs to look at, is this the right tool for us, and at what point is it the right tool? I think we've seen land trusts fail, because of scalability, right? If you have a very small inventory that can't sustain, you need governance, you need funding for operation, you need a long-term political commitment, to the project, and you see them unravel sometimes when you don't have that scale and long-term sustainability. So I think it's important to think about what can your community sustain and how many tools. When you're, when you create a bunch of non-profits in one small environment, they often don't sustain. That's what happened here in, in Flint. Because we spread ourselves a little too thin, and as funding contracts, you can't sustain that. So I think if we stay focused on the goal of creating affordability and stability and creating an environment for new investment, that's most important, and then we need to think thoroughly about what tool, makes sense. And, are we gonna try to sustain both a land trust and a land bank? Are there ways they could function together? Are there ways you could add it on? But I think at this moment we're still not there- Right because of the value we have in excess. We have 13,000 properties in the land bank's inventory, right? So it's not about land values. It is about construction. And there's other models- like thinking about how do we think differently about- Public investments in housing- and owning housing. The public sector, maybe land banks, owning housing over time, that's affordable rental. We have a negative perception of public housing, but places throughout the world do public housing in a different way. It's not called public housing or they use different language. But are there different models? I think we need to think about everything, but think thoroughly about sustaining over time.

Dan Kildee 31:38

Yeah. My thought is that it's not so much a land trust would be needed as an entity, but borrowing some of the concepts of the land trust, which is, you were just getting into. Is that how do we create, sustainable affordable housing that's high quality, that folks have access to that have a modest income, but also create a mechanism for them to begin to build equity. So it's maybe a different form of transaction that we talk about over time. It's high-quality rental turning into rent to own or something like that. Those borrow principles from the land trust concept, but it could be done, I think, fully just by developing a program that a land bank could operate. Brian, you had a thought.

Brian Larkin 32:16

Yeah, and I would be remiss if we, if I didn't mention also, as we're looking to address the... 'Cause a lot of the intrigue around community land trust is I don't see enough affordable housing. I don't see... we need more, and the national conversation is about the supply gap, the housing supply gap. But I would be remiss if we didn't say one of the solutions that is not talked about enough is repair. there was just an article that Michael Freeman was quoted in about how much less demolition is happening, and they're trying to save and salvage houses. The cheapest w- especially with, how expensive it is to do stick build from ground. Putting resources, public resources, whether at the federal level or the state level, to save and fix up and repair some existing structures is going to be a lot cheaper for us. it's going to be an option that we should definitely should consider in places where that land value is lower and controlled. If you can get, if you can save the stock, but it's going to take public subsidy at a level that we haven't seen to date there, and I think that's a portion of the conversation as well. Right.

Dan Kildee 33:12

Well, let me wrap things up by first of all mentioning, that there's still a connection to to my work for all of this. You know, I, I felt like this was a full circle moment having this conversation because it's been a quarter of a century since these ideas were just bouncing around as ideas in my head, and now I listen to you talk about it, and it's just really, really gratifying. But, you know, I'm the president, CEO of the Community Foundation. We have a role in supporting and sustaining this work. One really big role that we play is that we hold the endowment for the State Park. So we are the guarantors of the long-term sustainability of that investment, which I think is a really important statement about how the community saw this. There was a way for us to do this, but to do it in a way that is sustainable. But as we explore ways through our own impact investing, how we can use our portfolio of dollars, not to just invest on Wall Street for the good of our work, but to invest right here in our own community, to invest on Saginaw Street. to me, there's more work that we can do together, and I'm glad that the concept is one that continues to invite that kind of, partnership. So, Brian, Christina, thank you so much for a really thoughtful conversation. As I said, it's a subject that I have talked about for a long time. I was gonna say that I could talk about for a long time. I guess I did it. so thank you again. this work is really important. So Brian, Christina, thanks for being with us.

Katelyn 34:35

Thanks for having us.

christene kelly 34:36

Yeah. Thanks so much, Dan. It was great to be here.

Dan Kildee 34:38

And for you listeners who want to learn more about the Genesee County Land Bank Authority, you can visit thelandbank.org. And to learn more about the Center for Community Progress and the National Land Bank Network, visit communityprogress.org. It's so strange because I remember creating both of those website, addresses. I didn't create the one for the Community Foundation, but you can also look at the work there. Visit cfgf.org. This has been Philanthropy Speaks. I'm Dan Kildee, and we'll be back next time with another conversation about the people and ideas strengthening Flint and Genesee County. All right. Goodbye, all.