Primals

Mike and Corbett talk about Primals.... or primals...  To be fair they talk about a lot of things.  The Ai says it is a Primal, while Carl took the race primal, but they may or may not be different, or the same.  It is really all very confusing.  Enjoy!

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:25

Welcome to Mongo is Appalled. I am Corbett and I am totally appalled most of the time. Actually, not this time around.

SPEAKER_01 0:32

How about you, Mike? I'm appalled, but only because there are tiny bits of me that are of billions of other beings, and each of them was appalled as well.

SPEAKER_00 0:42

Well, that's why you should take showers more often.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

Like a cup in the ocean, that's right.

SPEAKER_00 0:49

A cup in the ocean. So this time around, we're talking about the primal the primal effect, I guess. The uh one of the crux of the book, I th at least I felt like at the end of the current book. So just as a warning, we're on book eight. Spoilers. Try to read book or just listen and read later. It's still fun.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

If you don't care about spoilers, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:11

Don't worry, we barely understand what we're talking about anyway.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

That's right. But that doesn't stop us.

SPEAKER_00 1:17

At the end of the book, the pr the AI announces, at least he says, that the AIs are they're all primal. They are all primal. That's the primal race. Right. Yeah. The premises, but at the beginning, way back when in book two, when Carl picks a race, he picks primal, and the primals can be anything. At least Mordecai says this back then. The primals can be anything. We talked about this kind of before when we were talking about primals. And now we're talking about it again because now we know, possibly, if you can trust the AI, that the reminder is going insane. Right. Which everybody calls it going primal, air quotes.

SPEAKER_01 1:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:57

But I'm not sure if primal is specifically the race, kind of like the uh feral feral gods.

SPEAKER_01 2:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:06

You you'd mentioned that earlier at one point with the feral gods are not all feral.

SPEAKER_01 2:12

Yeah. And I'm sure Denneman did that intentionally to keep everyone guessing for the primals. What a jerk. Most authors are.

SPEAKER_00 2:21

Well, not author Steve Rowland. We know he's a great guy.

SPEAKER_01 2:24

Yeah. Except he's dead.

SPEAKER_00 2:28

Yeah, he is. And signing books for somebody else, which is really weird.

SPEAKER_01 2:32

Yeah, well, hey, why not? But yeah, the primals. Also, the NPCs are at least partially primals, too. Yeah. Because they're all bits. Yeah. It's it's weird. And I and I can't but wonder if Deniman's doing that intentionally to leave everyone guessing. Is what the AI says at the end of Parade of Horribles the truth? Or is he just nuts?

SPEAKER_00 2:59

Or is he trying to mislead Carl and Donut so that that way he can get a hand up on the gods, which he apparently doesn't control, but all the gods want Carl to join him or them. Yeah. Because that was what's her name? Uh why am I blanking on her name? Eris was like super hardcore on getting Carl to join him of his own free will.

SPEAKER_01 3:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:18

And specifically the AI did say he had no real control over the gods. Like zero control. They're all out of out of control. And they can go anywhere, which is part of the AI because the AI's sphere of influence has expanded.

SPEAKER_01 3:31

Yeah, and something they never really said is are the gods going places where the AI's control isn't? Like, say the central system or that sort of thing. It's never really explained. They are going all over the place, but they're going all at least the direct references are areas that are part of the AI's sphere of influence.

SPEAKER_00 3:50

I do think it's funny she's walking around with a robot Jesus, which is kind of funny.

SPEAKER_01 3:54

Uzi Jesus. Because Uzi G everybody loves Uzi Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 3:59

Somehow?

SPEAKER_01 4:01

Well, I people that grew up in the deep south, uh, I'm sure especially are going, yep, yep, oozy Jesus. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 4:09

Uzi Jesus, totally Uzi Jesus. Anyway, but primals, so then our primals, because I I was still under the impression that the primals were a race, and they created the AIs, which now the AI is saying he is a primal and has always been, and they're all just bits of themselves all over the place, which kind of brings back to mind the original Cylons. I know for people who watch terrible versions of Battlestar Galactica.

SPEAKER_01 4:36

The real Battlestar Galactica.

SPEAKER_00 4:39

Well, in the later one, the the humans are the ones that created the Cylons and they they turned on them. Oh no, robots will come after us. But in the original, they were created by like a lizard race. They always are described as a lizard race.

SPEAKER_01 4:52

Well, at the beginning, you always saw kind of a vaguely lizard creature up on that that huge Yeah, the Imperious Leader. Yeah, that rolled around the seat as Imperious Leader.

SPEAKER_00 5:04

I always thought it was more insect-like, but I don't he could be a robot too much. Well, and the Kalons from Orville. I don't know if you've watched that one, but more or less is there the alien species is the Kalons. They make the robot versions, and the robot versions kill the Kalons, then they become the Kalons. So this this kind of sets the tone. Actually, a little bit sets the tone for the Kelvens. Do you remember the Kelvins from This Island Earth? Or not This Island Earth? Forbidden Planet.

SPEAKER_01 5:37

No, I don't remember them. I remember the Kelvins from classic Star Trek.

SPEAKER_00 5:42

Well, they they took that from Forbidden Planet. The alien race that the the scientist was researching. They created the machine, the machine would give them anything they want. As soon as they turned it on, their entire species died because everybody got everything they wanted.

SPEAKER_01 5:58

And obviously, that's a bad thing.

SPEAKER_00 6:01

Well, yeah. If you think about what everyone wants, oof.

SPEAKER_01 6:06

Yeah, what about all those introverts? You know, what do everything I want? What I want is everyone to leave me alone.

SPEAKER_00 6:13

But what I want is everybody to come together. Yeah. Well, and see that was that's that goes into my Superman theory. The theory that he that uh Krypton was kind of like that. They created a device that was going to do that. Jorel realized this is gonna kill everybody, so I better send my son away. And this the the device is activated, he's sent off to Earth, he ends up on Earth and has all this power because it destroys the planet. But he has all this power to create anything he wants. And of course, he's in Kansas, so he's stuck with the limitation of, oh, I can only do things a little better than a human. Yet for some reason, sometimes he can push the entire planet out of the way, and other times he can barely lift a car. It's almost like he can do whatever he wants, and then all this repressed energy becomes some sort of interdimensional imp that shows up that can only be pushed away by saying his name backwards. So that's very psychological drama.

SPEAKER_01 7:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:11

Well, that that leads me back to the AI, which could be that. That the impish little thing that is this original alien mass construct that's pulled back in. So that's why the primals can be anything because they adapted to whatever they were. And see, that also throws into the Kelvins and the uh Star Trek. And there's always that sort of we are all powerful type alien.

SPEAKER_01 7:36

Yet another god the Yagas, the yet another godlike alien that always shows up on Star Trek. But um, back to Dungeon Crawler Carl.

SPEAKER_00 7:45

Oh, yeah, that's right. That's what this podcast is about. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

There seems to be a setup, it may be a red herring, but it seems to be setting up for Carl to sacrifice himself for everyone else to escape. And if he is a primal, does that mean he could become the AI?

SPEAKER_00 8:05

Ooh. Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_01 8:07

Something my wife and I were talking about.

SPEAKER_00 8:09

Because he becomes another cup in the ocean?

SPEAKER_01 8:11

Yeah. If something happens to the original AI, it goes totally insane or is killed or whatever, he takes over and he's kind of the custodian of that part of the galaxy because that's where the AI's sphere of influence goes, but he has a moral center, which obviously the AI does not.

SPEAKER_00 8:30

I don't know if that's true.

SPEAKER_01 8:32

I don't either. Uh it seems to be setting it up for him to sacrifice himself, but I think if he does kill Carl or God forbid donut, I think Deniman might be hung in effigy.

SPEAKER_00 8:45

But no, I don't think I don't when you said the AI has no moral center, and like don't I don't know if he doesn't know I I don't think it's a matter of him not having a moral center, because he does seem to make things right, even though he's given impossible situations. He he gives a way to get out of it.

SPEAKER_01 9:04

Yeah, the programming for this is a game.

SPEAKER_00 9:07

Right. Because Mordecai was the one who points it out, there's always, you know, look for the signs, look for the thing that tells you the secret of how to how to win the fight or whatever it is. And Carl has kind of adopted that too, it's not just have a weakness.

SPEAKER_01 9:22

Yeah, you can try to overcome.

SPEAKER_00 9:25

But the the AI is being pushed into, well, I have to do what I am told, but I don't have to do everything I'm told. Because obviously he's not taking orders, he's just taking it by the rules that were set up before. Yeah. Because otherwise Orin would just say, do this, and it would be done.

SPEAKER_01 9:42

Right. That limitation has been overwritten. He is picking and choosing what la what rules he follows.

SPEAKER_00 9:49

I don't know if that's totally true either, because he he is following rules pretty much to the letter.

SPEAKER_01 9:55

But he's following the old rules, the original rules. Right. He's not listening to anything that comes down the pike now.

SPEAKER_00 10:02

Yeah, he's not a straight up Nazi just doing what he's told. He's right. He's he is doing by the rules that he is set into motion.

SPEAKER_01 10:11

I'm still not sure that const constitutes a moral center, though.

SPEAKER_00 10:15

And see that the parade of horribles, the actual parade part, was really weird. Yes. I mean it it made sense as it went along. I really don't get why he just decided to break everybody's legs and um Yeah, Florin and uh Florin.

SPEAKER_01 10:31

I was about to call him Roscoe for some reason. Lucia getting their legs broken because they didn't put enough effort into their float.

SPEAKER_00 10:39

Which is weird because he doesn't do anything like that to any other floats.

SPEAKER_01 10:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:43

And it just gets more bizarre as we're wrong, but he's obviously telling a story and letting people know.

SPEAKER_01 10:49

And while he did that to them and yanked off Chaco's wings, you know, he's not actually killing them or Cascadia or any of that. He's not killing them.

SPEAKER_00 11:00

Yeah, he did specifically have Zev come back on and say, She is not dead. Right. So he's honestly injuring them, but he's not killing them. He might have some kind of moral center. Of course, that's something that that might be a programming thing. So he maybe he doesn't have a moral center. Because remember Justice Light's comment about when he was a guard, he was forced to be a guard. And at the end of guarding this place, they're like, okay, now turn and kill all these people. And like, I'm not gonna do it. And then the his friend gets killed, and it's like then he spends his time killing them. It's like, why didn't you just kill him? If you can kill one of the crawlers, why don't you just kill these NPCs? Why do I have to be the one to do it?

SPEAKER_01 11:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:42

So I'm wondering if it's a combination of programming or if it's a like it's a limitation that it can't directly kill an NPC. Well, it can kill a crawler. No, that would make sense. Okay. I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_01 11:55

I was about to say NPCs have been killing each other all through the series, though.

SPEAKER_00 11:59

NPCs have been killing each other, but it has never the thing is during Justice Light's comment, it made him kill the NPCs. But the AI didn't have any problem killing his fellow crawler who refused.

SPEAKER_01 12:12

But he's a crawler, not a NPC. Right. But yeah, but I mean earlier, you know, there was it was a bit off-screen, but from the first book, you know, there was the goblins and the bad llamas having the drug war.

SPEAKER_00 12:26

Well, they were all they were all not awoken, and there is a big difference. I noticed the what the fire fairy uh when Carl gets the three mercenaries in the current book.

SPEAKER_01 12:35

Yeah, the worshipper of Embrus.

SPEAKER_00 12:37

Yeah, she suddenly realizes that it's that she's an NPC.

SPEAKER_01 12:41

You know, am I a real thing's fake and she just kind of loses her shit over it? Yeah. Everything you know is wrong.

SPEAKER_00 12:50

I don't know specifically why that AI during Justice Light's tenure as a guard made him and his counterpart kill the NPCs they were supposed to be guarding. I mean, I know why.

SPEAKER_01 13:01

It was the end of the floor, and they were just like kill them and Which is weird because well, wouldn't the if the floor was at its end, wouldn't it just collapse?

SPEAKER_00 13:10

Mm-hmm. Why why go through all that for no good reason? I mean, unless it was a matter of generating drama.

SPEAKER_01 13:17

Or that particular AI really was insane.

SPEAKER_00 13:19

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 13:20

No way to know. But yeah, it's very interesting because if all the E the NBCs are at least bits of primals, is there a way for the primal race to return?

SPEAKER_00 13:32

Maybe this is their escape trap to get back. Like if the entire race is destroyed, the the AIs would be the ones that would bring them back. It could be interesting.

SPEAKER_01 13:41

Yeah. Some fiction I've read about being able to back up your brain into a hard drive of some kind and then just put into a new body effective immortality like altered carbon.

SPEAKER_00 13:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:54

You know, it's although considering how many different lives they've all lived and can remember, that wouldn't be a serious mess up.

SPEAKER_00 14:03

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 14:04

So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:06

Well, one thing's for sure. We all have our limitations. And they will not break us?

SPEAKER_01 14:13

Hopefully. Not yet.