The Music Industry Podcast
The Music Industry Podcast
Debunking Music Industry Advice That Derails Careers
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Setting The Mission: Mythbusting
SPEAKER_02Welcome back to the Music Industry Podcast. Today is a very burning topic for us because it's myths that artists are told in the music industry that aren't necessarily true. And we're going to expose all of those myths today because you might find in your career that you are going off in the wrong direction based on something that you are told, but it might not be true. You might end up going in the wrong direction. So today we are discussing all of those with uh Maddie. I've got a bit of chocolate on my finger from me, haven't I? I can tell you.
SPEAKER_01You've got chocolate on your fingers. We just went for steak and then we got some chocolate after, and I can't unsee it. He's just got chocolate all over his hands.
SPEAKER_02And then made me walk up three flights of stairs to burn off the chocolate, so I'm actually out of breath already.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Right. Anyway, very good topic. And it's yeah, like you said, it's one we're super passionate about because if you don't know what we do, Alex and I own Bursamo, which is a music marketing agency. We've had it for like nine years now.
SPEAKER_04Nine years, yeah.
Social Media Control And Scheduling
SPEAKER_01Uh and throughout the years you hear similar stories, like similar things that artists are told, either by managers, labels, other marketers, things they hear from peers. And it's fascinating because we have to kind of explain to them why they are myths and why they need to ignore it, because it can actually impact your career. You're told things for the benefit of someone else. And it does really impact things.
SPEAKER_02And I think where it comes from is uh a lot of the time people are trying to sell you stuff. So therefore, they have that vested interest to create that myth. There is a reason that they are telling you that, or it just ends up being kind of a bit of a rumor, or it is left over from a different type of industry from, say, this the you know, the 60s and the 70s of music, where people have continued to believe that. One actually that springs to mind, this wasn't even on my list, but an example of it is uh that no artists necessarily control their social media. So I remember back in like what maybe 2007, Lady Gargar was always known for uh, oh, she doesn't do her social media, people other people do it. But that has carried over even 20 years later.
SPEAKER_01Then you find as some myths, they start off just like that, and then because people believe them, they copy it, and then they have no idea they've copied something that isn't even a thing. So quite often we get artists being like they'll have like 2,000 followers and they say, I need someone to manage my social media. You don't need someone to manage it, you need someone to assist with the content creation or the ideas. You don't need someone to be posting on your behalf, just having a login information for 2,000 followers. You're not you're not too busy for it yet. But because it's seen as like, oh, all the biggest artists in the world have someone posting for them, it's this myth that people are suddenly jumping on and kind of want to get on board with.
SPEAKER_02And I don't know if this is how you wanted to start the podcast, but we're doing anyway, because I'm gonna throw something at you. The uh scheduling posts in advance. What do you think of that one?
SPEAKER_01I don't mind that.
SPEAKER_02That one's just popped in my mind.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so see, the reason I don't mind it is because if if you are an artist.
SPEAKER_03How far in advance as well.
SPEAKER_01How far in advance? So difficult.
SPEAKER_02Because I think some artists want to schedule.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I would never do that.
SPEAKER_02And they look at like, oh, it's Easter and I need an Easter poster. Yeah, stuff that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02It's international sunset.
SPEAKER_01You scheduling too far in advance, you're going to pull from like the authenticity. And I'm big for reactive marketing is a bit of a buzzword, but I'm big on that because I think if your audience are really engaging with something, you want to give them more of it. However, if you're scheduled like six months in advance, by the time you go and look, you've potentially missed out on an opportunity. So I think there's no problem with scheduling, especially if, say, you went on tour and you're currently on tour and someone has scheduled some posts for you that are coming out a couple of days' time. I think that's absolutely fine. But if you're someone that actually does have the time to actually hit post and maybe rethink that caption, maybe rethink whether you're going to do the video as a reply to a comment, all of those things can really help you with creating that community. And that's one thing that like no one no one seems to know the importance of that. As an artist, you're creating a community over anything else. And social media is a tool for that. So why treat it as something that's like part of your job description where you're like, oh, I've got a post today? So you schedule six months in advance. So I'm not anti-scheduling. I think it can be really useful, but you don't need to be scheduling that far in advance.
SPEAKER_02And what about the pace of scheduling then? Do you need to like, for example, if you posted yesterday and you've got another post ready and edited to go for the next day, but you haven't got anything for the next 10 days, do you post one, two days, or do you spread it out?
Posting Pace, Community, And Authenticity
SPEAKER_01I think the the idea of like scheduling and and knowing how much content you're gonna post all is down to how able you are to create. Because if you're someone that is not going to be like, oh, I've got a great idea, I'm just gonna capture it, or you're doing behind the scenes of you creating the music and you're gonna capture it as you go, great, post as and when. But if you're someone that is bulk creating on the Saturday and then scheduling, you might find that one Saturday you can't create content and then you haven't got content for a week, which what's the point of that? Like all of this sounds like a chore to me more than anything else. And I want artists to see social media as a tool more than anything else. I want you to find it exciting because I find it really exciting because it's financial, but it is so exciting. It's literally giving you something for free where you can connect with people, and that's all you want for your music. So use it as that. Use it as a way of saying, hey, this is what I'm about, this is what my music's about. I want you guys to to enjoy it and to feel something or to want to share it with friends. Like that's all social media is. So if you stop treating it as a enemy, then you might find that you actually have a bit of fun with it.
SPEAKER_02I see it as like a spin on the roulette wheel. I can't wait. So if we had filmed their podcast yesterday, for example, and we filmed this one today, I would want them both out immediately. Like I'm not someone where I feel the need to put like space it out and feel like there's consistency of content because of that spin of the roulette wheel. Because you put something out and the first one might like flop and nobody wants to watch it, then your second piece of content might actually fly. No longer does the algorithm stunt the earlier post and the reach just because there's a fresher post out there now.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So no longer I feel you need to space things out, be consistent. You could literally post once a day for five days and then never post for six months, still get followers for six months.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Also, what I think is so cool about that is as an artist, like if you wanted to be an influencer, you're like, oh, I have no idea if my video is going to take off, and then I get a load of views. As an artist, you have no idea if that video is going to take off, and that is the moment your career starts. Like, what if that video leads to a huge label wanting to sign you or someone wanting to collaborate on a track? What if it makes the track go viral and loads of influencers use it and then suddenly it's in the charts and that's your your way into making it an artist? What if someone spots you and wants you to support them on their tour? Like, there are so many opportunities from just getting seen, and it doesn't even need to be a viral post. You don't know who it's getting seen by, and that's so cool. It's so cool. But yeah, I think I think a scene is a bit of a negative still.
SPEAKER_02I've got another one. Do you want to fire it at you? Aesthetic of your feed as a whole.
SPEAKER_01Oh, this my opinion on this has changed massively over the last couple of months, I would say, maybe like last year. So in the past, I've always been for you create content with a purpose, and that purpose is to get views and to get new fans and so on. Instagram, especially, TikTok, I do not care about the aesthetic. Like your feed can look mental. But Instagram as a feed is kind of like a like a portfolio now, in a way where people go to it and they want a quick snapshot of who you are as an artist. So, for example, if you go to an artist we work with, Altego, if you look at their Instagram, you immediately know who they are. They're two brothers that mix music, and you're like, okay, I can see their character from one quick glance. Same with uh some rock artists, like if you look at Youngblood, you immediately know, and like there's an aesthetic to it. It's very on brand. You want someone to be able to understand your brand immediately when they see your socials. And then all the other stuff is for gaining momentum and gaining fans. So the reels and the stories and so on. But I still think Instagram is so focused on visual aesthetic. This might change. Like in six months' time, I might say stuff that, don't care about the aesthetic. But the way the platform is designed now, it's so visual heavy that it's less about the substance of the video and more about the aesthetic of it, which on TikTok, you don't have to worry about that. That's why it's so important to find the platform that works for you. Like you might find that you hate that, it doesn't work for you. TikTok's gonna be great, probably. Whereas some artists absolutely love making things look really nice and have a great fashion sense and want to pull on that and all of that. That's great for them. So you have to find a platform that does work for you, but I still think aesthetic does matter.
Instagram Aesthetic Vs TikTok Reality
SPEAKER_02I completely agree. And and the reason I agree is because of what you said about the reels and the stories and now that's where you're getting the followers from. So the reason it's changed, and we used to say that it doesn't matter, is because it was so powerful to upload a video onto your feed, and therefore it gets you fans and it gets you momentum. Now, because the reels are on a separate section now, the it allows you to have that aesthetic again. So we no longer have to sacrifice it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, also the the way they've changed carousels. So if you don't know this, it's gonna be a game changer for you. Uh with carousels, if you add music, you it will automatically push it out on the feed as a normal post, as like a photo, but it'll also push it out as a reel, which means you're basically getting double the exposure. So you might post it a carousel of something that without music would maybe just reach your existing audience, but with it, with music hav being on it, it goes out as a reel and suddenly it just explodes. And that is something that's so simple, but again, it does rely on the aesthetic. So yeah, that one's a game changer. Loads of artists aren't adding music to their reels, so they're literally missing out on such a simple opportunity.
SPEAKER_02The next one that there are so many myths and mystique around is Spotify. I think that's mainly because we can't see the algorithm and we can't see what's happening behind the scenes. So there becomes a lot of theories around it, and that role is also the most profitable for other companies.
SPEAKER_01So a lot of people create their own narratives.
SPEAKER_02Very true.
SPEAKER_01The reason I see it being that is Spotify is the only streaming platform that shows the streams, which means there's always going to be a majority of artists want those streams to be better for the outside perspective, which I totally get. Like that's how you're going to get shows, it's how you're gonna get a label, it's gonna it's how you build your career, people seeing that you get you're getting traction. However, it's getting to a point where it's been it for years now, people want those numbers for the sake of the numbers. So companies profit from that vulnerability, which is why we've seen people just make up stories about how the algorithm works and how their techniques work, because it makes them so much money. What which ones do you want to talk about? There are many.
SPEAKER_02Do you know so many went to came into my head all at once?
SPEAKER_03I wasn't sure what to lead with, but one that did come into my head the Spotify editors are looking through press.
SPEAKER_02And Spotify have a algorithm that scrolls Google for artists getting mentioned to see if people are talking about them, therefore to playlist them. I I always come back to the idea of if you're designing an algorithm and you're all gonna sit in a meeting room in Spotify HQ, are they really gonna come up with being like, how do we find good artists? Let's not use all of the data we've got. Let's use Google and then have a look on a little blog and see if a little blog is talking about it. And if that little blog is talking about an artist, then we'll feature them on an editorial or push them out on the algorithm. It's the it's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's nothing. I mean, press is gonna help with industry credibility. So if someone Googles you and like clash, Wonderland, Rolling Stone, Billboard, all these places are coming up, you're gonna look like the B's knees. So people are like, maybe I should get behind this artist, what's going on here? It creates a bit of curiosity. However, the Spotify do not have an algorithm that scans Google for stuff. And yeah, I I find it interesting what people sell about the editors.
SPEAKER_02So um who do you think came up with that myth then? Do you think it might be people selling press?
SPEAKER_01Interesting.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
Carousels, Music, And Double Exposure
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we had um we had Mike uh do a masterclass for us, and he was a Spotify editor, he was a rock Spotify editor for years, and he did a masterclass on our portal, which if you haven't been on the music industry portal, it's completely free to access. There are masterclasses and contact databases and resources, there's loads of stuff, and then there is another option to submit opportunities which are ace, by the way, like Rolling Stone features. You get a billboard, you get uh an iTunes chart, an Instagram chart, like some crazy opportunities. So we'll put a link for that in the description.
SPEAKER_02And I don't know any other place where, for free or paid, you can access a Spotify editor and have all of the do's and don'ts of your Spotify submission, what he's looking for, what's putting him off a track and means he's not going to playlist you. So if you haven't had an editorial, sign up, it's free and watch the course.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. But yeah, Mike, Mike was speaking to us after he did the masterclass, and he was saying that what infuriates him is a lot of people are saying that they're pitching directly to the editors. So you'll you'll see marketing agencies being like, pay us, and we'll directly pitch to the editors. That's not true. There's there's no way that people are doing that. They they only take pitches from distributors and labels. And if you're with a great distributor, they will be pitching you. If you're with a great label that's got someone there that's doing it, they will be pitching you, but a marketing agency will not. Like we used to directly pitch to them six years ago, five, six years ago. We've got an artist as a cover image on a playlist. We've got artists playlist it all the time. However, after COVID, they had to let off so many editors. So now a lot of the playlists are algorithmic led, which means they can't keep having editors go through all of these emails, which is why the pitch has to be important. And it's why Mike's course is great. But it's one of those things where do not pay someone to pitch you to an editor. Like they just don't have the ability to do that. And that yeah, they're just trying to get your money at the end of the day.
SPEAKER_02Adam from Deezer, where he doesn't he's at TikTok now, but he was on our podcast. Yeah. The curative of a Deezer said exactly the same thing. Yeah. That he doesn't get direct pitches, it's just distributors and labels now. And it's not because labels are powerful or have the contacts, it's because they have the direct upload to Spotify, which allows them to pitch. And therefore, if you are the person uploading it, then yeah, it allows you to pitch.
Spotify Myths And Editor Access
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but I just found it interesting that he was saying that a lot of the playlists are now algorithmic led. And you clearly see that now. That a lot of even the editorials are half uh editorial, half personalized, so algorithmic. And as a as an agency, we've always focused on triggering the algorithm because it's the most important thing. Like you can't rely on ads or playlists or all that sort of stuff your whole career, it's just not sustainable. However, you're finding people tell their own narrative on how the algorithm works. And that's one myth that really gets under my skin because you're seeing people manipulate it in a way where the artist you you guys want to do well. Like you want to get listeners. So if someone's telling you this is exactly how you do it, and you're gonna pay me and I'm gonna get that, of course, you're gonna trust them. You think, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. The main one for me that I can't understand that people even believe is true, is trigger cities.
SPEAKER_02Wow. Again, going back to that boardroom. Are they going to sit around? People might not know what it is, to be fair. So what it is is people say that if you end up getting a lot of streams from a particular city, then it triggers the algorithm, and everyone takes notice of your music, and it pushes you out to other cities and other countries. And that's not true at all. We've worked with so many artists, we've worked on like collectively so many streams, we've got all the data to know that that's absolutely not true. Then and again, they're not sitting around in a boardroom saying, Shall we make people in Guatemala be the tastemakers for the world? And if everybody in, I don't know, Melbourne likes a track, we're going to push it out.
SPEAKER_01I mean, it's it's so not true because if you also looked at different countries, there are different styles that work in different countries. So, for example, some music that works in Asian markets wouldn't work elsewhere. And uh some even like in America, some country music is so huge in America, and the UK, for example, has never heard of it. Like how many artists you see playing arena tours in America, and you're like, I don't know who they are. It just isn't possible. Why would an algorithm say, oh, that country likes it, let's just throw it everywhere else? It's designed in a way, very clearly from the data that we've analyzed for the last nine years, that if something's doing well, it just replicates that. So, say, for example, you're doing really, really, really well in the UK, it pushes it out to more people in the UK. So then as an artist, you might think, okay, I've I've smashed the UK. Maybe I should start looking at Europe, maybe I should start looking at America. You can start going out, but you can't say I'm gonna go for all of these countries because it's gonna help me get everywhere else. Just doesn't work like that.
SPEAKER_02And there's two places this has come from. One, people who want to sell you fake streams, because there are certain cities where they come from, those fake streams, and everyone knows it by now. Usually it's like South America and randomly uh distributed to all this. Helsinki's a really big one for some reason, um, and lots of cheaper countries. Therefore, those cheaper countries to get streams from is going to come up in your about section. And people look at that about section, especially labels and people in the industry who can influence your career, are gonna look at your about section, see which countries you're popping off on. And if it's like all just the wrong country for your style, like if you're a country artist popping off in Indonesia, it's not right. There is country music is not popping off in Indonesia. The second thing is that it came from Spotify themselves because Spotify put out a report which all of these companies latched on to, which says about these trigger cities. I'm not sure if they actually called it trigger cities, but they said that the like artists get hot in these cities first. In that article, they're describing the past, not the future. They're not saying that if an artist pops off in these cities, therefore they're definitely going to get pushed out. What it's saying is there is a pattern for an artist that when they're going to get big, you find that it gets quite hot in certain cities first, and then they start to spread. It doesn't make sense algorithm's going to trigger huge in Indonesia.
SPEAKER_01Like cult play actually are huge in Indonesia. They're not getting fake streams from Indonesia, but it's also like they didn't start their marketing plan saying, you know what, let's target Indonesia. That's where we're going to start.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, because the algorithm will push us out. That's why.
Trigger Cities And Fake Streams
SPEAKER_01But the the worst one actually for me with Spotify is um if you've ever got an email from your distributor that says you've got artificial streams or we've detected botist streams, or even if you've had your music removed, unfortunately, we're seeing a lot of artists have that. And the argument is Spotify are doing it. Spotify don't want to pay independent artists, so they're doing it. In we've worked in this industry as an agency for like nine years. I've been in the industry for 12 plus, you've been in it for 15 plus, and not once have we had an occasion where an artist has been removed from Spotify. Never. Not the whole time we've run this agency, not once. And if they ever send an email being like, I just got this email, I'll say, Are you working with someone else? And I'll look at their Spotify for artists. Yes, they are. And they say, Yeah, yeah, yeah, why? And you can spot the playlist immediately.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And it they get removed and everything's fine, nothing happens. The the amount of people that have told me, oh, this agency told me that the reason my music got removed is because of Spotify. Like Spotify don't want to pay me. Spotify don't want to pay you what, the 30 quid? I think they'll okay. So yeah, it we've never once had the issue, not once. So I can't see it being Spotify.
SPEAKER_02I completely agree. And also to solve that, it's to remember that it's a complete myth that more streams equals more success. It's not linear in a sense where if you're an artist where you're pitching the playlist, running ads, etc., trying to push and push and push for more streams. If you say hit 100,000 streams, getting to 120,000 streams does not mean you're necessarily on a trajectory that is going to make you a more successful artist. You are probably at the same place at 100,000 streams and 120,000 streams. That is because there is so much more going on in an artist's career to Build them and build that fan base that the number of streams you have is not consistent with the level of success or the amount of pace you have. So a lot of people will get a bit addicted and say, I'm on a hundred, I've got a hundred thousand streams now, I need to get to a million. That's not the figure or the the metric you should be trying to increase.
SPEAKER_01I actually really like Spotify as a way of testing the waters, which I don't think we've spoken about before. Um I think Spotify allows you to see data uh in a way that is really easy to analyze. So you can see the age, the gender, the countries, and then you can react accordingly from there. So we get a lot of artists that are in the early stages saying, I immediately want to run a social media campaign. So they don't have any sort of content plan, they don't have any sort of audience, but they want to run a social media campaign because they think, oh, if I push up my socials and push people to DSPs, then it's all good. I would much rather they focus on Spotify first and let the algorithm decide and let the algorithm push out and see who's engaging. Because from that you can then react accordingly. Because you think you know the market, but you don't. Neither do we. We we're 99% of the time reacting to what's happening. So we can place it where we know it's gonna work, genre, mood, style-wise, however, the market decides how it performs. And so often we have it with EPs and album releases where as a collective, we'll say, okay, we're gonna work this release two weeks in, and we're like, I think we're gonna actually swap this release. It's not performing as well as we did. That next release just flies. And you think you know how it's gonna perform with an audience, but you have to let the market decide. And that's what Spotify is great for. The algorithm will lead you in ways where this track is performing well or this track's performing well. And the amount of times you'll see an artist's profile and you can clearly see which track is still doing well because the algorithm is still pushing it out, even though it's like five years old. And that's what you should always be aiming for. And if you're going to an agency or an individual or whatever, and they're just gonna playlist you, or you're gonna do it yourself, think about how is this gonna help me in the long term? How is it gonna get the algorithm to work for me? And the only way that's gonna be is if it's genre-specific, legitimate, real playlists. And if you can't do that, which I don't blame you, it's bloody hard to find them. I would focus on socials and ads and pushing the right audience to your Spotify because that matters more than ever.
SPEAKER_02I might be throwing you under the bus with this one because me and you, we haven't even mentioned it in our content or between us in a year. At least a year.
SPEAKER_04What are you gonna do?
SPEAKER_02Uh Spotify Discovery Mode. I haven't heard that mention in a long time.
SPEAKER_01Um interestingly, I don't listen to Discover Weekly anymore.
SPEAKER_02Were you talking about Discover Weekly or Discovery Mode? No, I'm talking about the setting on Spotify for artists. Yeah, people don't really do it as much anymore. Give up your royalties and it pushes you out more because you've gone for cheaper royalties. I've always felt that was a trap because if all artists did it, therefore you're not going to get pushed out. And also you've just voluntarily got paid even less.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I don't really see it as much. A lot of our artists use it, but I'm not seeing a huge boost.
SPEAKER_02No, a lot of our artists have come back saying it doesn't really do much.
Streams Vs Success: Reading Your Data
SPEAKER_01One thing that I think is worth discussing is Spotify ads because they're sold massively to artists as a way of increasing streams. And I want it to go back to what we were just saying about like why you're doing it. So, like I was saying, you want to use Spotify as like a discovery tool, you want to use it as a way to collect data and know how to react accordingly with your socials and and even like shows, you know where you're gonna play live based on where it's doing well. With Spotify ads, I they do get the streams, and I've seen that over and over again, but they're not very good quality streams and they're not streams that convert into algorithmic success. So it kind of traps you into a system where you're basically paying for your streams, which is such a strange concept to me. If you if you can pay for marketing, which helps assist you with getting streams, but long term is growing your career, great. If you're kind of directly paying for streams, that feels like a strange method. I've never seen it work in a way where people are gonna get that algorithmic growth. I've found it to be an expensive way of just inflating those numbers.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I've I've I've never seen it work personally for my.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's another myth that Spotify ads are actually effective.
SPEAKER_02No, no. And like I said, they're non-premium members, so why do you want why do you want students from people who probably won't ever come see your show because they can't afford it? No, they're not that into music then, are they?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah, but also they're not gonna be someone that's gonna pay for tickets to a show or pay for merchandise if they they don't want to even pay for their subscription.
SPEAKER_02Exactly.
SPEAKER_01Because if you had such a music lover, you'd pay.
SPEAKER_02So moving from Spotify ads to Instagram ads, which ones you're still an advocate for Instagram ads.
SPEAKER_01I'm still an advocate for ads on all social media platforms, if used effectively.
SPEAKER_02I like them for getting followers and engagement mainly. I know that people get them for streams.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I think you have to really think about the way you structure it. If your aim is to funnel money into ads to up your followers again for the image, it's never going to work for you, they're not gonna be great quality uh followers. However, if you're using it as a way to build the audiences in places you want, if you're using it as a way to trigger engagement, we've also found if you're running, if you're looking at Spotify, so when we work Spotify campaigns, we playlist it on playlists that we own and we've built. So we know all those streams are legit and we're not getting all those undesirable streams. But then we also run ads simultaneously. So you've got the playlist triggering the algorithm, but you've also got ads pushing people to the platform. So Spotify's getting all these triggers that, like, oh, all these people are listening to this new artist alongside these artists in these tier one countries. Ah, all these people are coming from Instagram, all these people are coming from TikTok. All these triggers are so positive that they're just going to keep pushing it out. We had an artist recently called Nal O'Connor, and we got him 140,000 streams on his debut within a month. He's now sat at like 380, 340 or something. And it was one of those situations where like the social content, uh, the playlist placement, the ads all pushing there, it just did really, really well. And it's only his debut, so I can see really big things happening for him. We've got a content shoot with him next week as well for a new song. And yeah, it's one of those things where it was just working. And I like using ads as a way to trigger different things. Same with TikTok ads. If you use community interaction ads, which are a way of growing the following, you can grow the followings in all the areas that you want. So, say you said, like, oh, I really want to build a following specifically up north in the UK. You could target people there, grow your following there, and then the algorithm is going to see that all those people are liking that and push it out to more people there. You can be really specific with it and use it as a way to kind of manipulate the algorithm. What I don't like is people just hitting that boost button. I think it may come from a place of like insecurity of like, oh my god, my reel only has 200 views. I want it to have 200,000 views. But just give it some time. And the numbers really mean nothing if they're not real people behind it. And ads can be really great, really, really fantastic for growing an audience, but don't use it as a crutch.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely right. Don't put your career on life support of your own like financial backing.
SPEAKER_01So I think that's where the myths come from. That like ads stunt growth because people are just hit and boost. So when they stop boosting, they're like, oh my god, I've only got 200 views. It must be because I was running ads.
Discovery Mode And Spotify Ads
SPEAKER_02Probably, yeah. I would like to see growth in your organic engagement, you know, over time.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Through the ads that you are running. If you're not seeing that growth and you're still only getting like 10 organic likes versus the thousand likes that you've used to boost, then your career is on life support. And as soon as you pull the plug, then it's ended. And you have to be going in a direction if you're going to be investing in those ads, and that's what we always make sure that an artist has a plan and objective for the exposure for the ads. Are you going to capture people through the content and are they going to become fans? Or is it just more just vanity metrics? YouTube ads are still like if you're going to be doing those discovery ads. Um, if people can click the video and have chosen to watch it, brilliant. We've been saying for about 10 years now the pre-roll ads are pointless and don't bother with those. You'll end up with like five comments, no likes, and a million views.
SPEAKER_01Social proofing. Yeah. People are more likely to click a view the YouTube video that has 10,000 views than two. Uh so social proof it, but not spend much money on it. And then discovery ads all the way.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And then you need that engagement for further videos, and you end up being you end up having your own audience, engaged audience on YouTube, which I think is absolutely amazing for an artist. It's rare to for an artist to ever have it. We don't see it often, but when they do, usually they don't even need a job because they're making their salary from YouTube views alone. Yeah. Which is just amazing. They there's no other platform that can do that for an artist right now, early in their career. And artists often ask where kind of where the money is. Like, that is amazing for supporting early in your career.
SPEAKER_01We've spoken about Instagram, we've spoken about YouTube a lot. TikTok, besides the ads myth, I think a big one is specifically in music, is the idea of starting a trend is how you break an artist. I think because it's happened a fair number of times now, people think it should be like the leading way to break a song. So immediately you finish a song and they're like, How are we gonna tr make this trending? How are we gonna get people to do a dance routine? Yeah, do a dance routine to it or like make how do we make them do a trend for us? And people spend a ridiculous amount of money on it mu on influencers, they'll spend a ridiculous amount of money on on ads or agencies to come up with concepts. But 99.9% of songs are not trendworthy. And that's not a bad thing. Like there are some incredible music that will never be a trend. It will do really, really well on social because the artist has pushed it, but it's not gonna be a trend. And I think that's that whole the word trending is infuriating for me in the music industry. It's it's become a bit of a buzzword where like that's always the aim. The aim should be to get people, of course, talking about your music. But that does not mean influencers need to jump on board, it does not mean you need to do a dance routine, it does not mean you even need to come up with a concept that people can replicate. If you come up with one, fantastic, go ahead and post it and see if people get on board. But the budget that is spent on influencers is obscene. And and 90% of the time, maybe even higher than that, it won't convert into a trending song. I have seen every song that we've either got trending or we've seen trend has happened organically.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
Smart Ads On Social And YouTube
SPEAKER_01The the the market, again, it comes back to the market decides. All of your marketing and all of your plans for growing an audience should put it into the market's hands to do the rest. Because that's what word of mouth is. It's no different to how it was 50 years ago. So now just social media's come in and made it all digital. So the opportunities are endless, but you just need to make sure you're taking advantage of those opportunities for it to spread, which doesn't mean you need to spend loads of money on influences and stuff like that.
SPEAKER_02I also see a lot of people using burner accounts as well. I don't I haven't seen that work at all either, to be honest.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, or same with I'm really for fan accounts if you've got fans.
SPEAKER_02Fan accounts are great.
SPEAKER_01Fan accounts are incredible if you've got fans. If you if you're if you've got like these burner accounts and you have a we've got this jazz duo that we work with that have their main account on TikTok and then they've got some other ones, and it's because they they themselves like to present themselves in a certain way. So the other accounts make more viral content that they wouldn't post themselves. Um so that could be like royalty-free videos or quotes or things like that, and it works really well for them. However, most people don't need to do that, like they can post everything on their main. But we're seeing more and more artists create fan accounts and they haven't got any fans. The concept of fan account is that it's fans that are running it, and you might be running it or your label might be running it, your manager might be running it. So it's more likely to have content really do well because people feel like they're discovering something or they're part of a community. If you don't have any fans, don't make one. Because it's so clearly not fan run. Like it's again that whole idea of like people copying what successful artists are doing. They're only doing it because they're successful and there is an audience there. So yeah, there's no point doing any of that.
SPEAKER_02Another big one for me is it's a huge misconception, which is labels are powerful enough to break any artist they want. And therefore, every big artist that breaks has a big label behind them, has loads of money behind them, and the label has all the contacts to make it happen. The reason that artists think that is because labels sign so many artists that the likelihood is that if an artist does break, they're signed to that label. So it makes it look like that artist has been broken by the label because you only see that artist. What you don't see is the thousand other artists that got signed by that label that didn't make it. So it look it makes labels look more powerful than they actually are. What a label does is take an artist who has momentum and speeds up what is happening already. They they act as a catalyst. So they will give them advance to invest more in what they are already doing. They will give them a team to be able to help them do things that they are already doing and what is working. What a label won't do is use like hacks and introduce like a team that's going to just implement some kind of magical strategy to make the artist break. That's not what happens at all. So a lot of the time, people will sign to a label thinking that if I sign on this dotted line, then instantly I'm going to be a hit. That's not what happens. And labels almost rely on artists thinking that because they need they need to come across as that kind of like magical here, sign on the dotted line. All they're doing is speeding up what you already have. So don't expect magic things to happen if you're going to sign with a major.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, a lot of our artists that sign to majors, they pay out of their own pocket. It's not the label.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Because the label are great at what they do in certain areas, but they need more. They want more. So they're paying out of their own pocket for, yeah, it might have come from the advance, but they're paying for whatever service they need from us. But how I see labels is like imagine a label is someone that's been spun around loads wearing a blindfold, and they keep chucking darts at a dartboard. Maybe one in 10,000 will land on the bullseye, all the others don't. The thing is they've got the funds to just keep buying darts. And that's that's how it works over and over and over again. But all you see is the dart that hit the the bullseye, which is great because that bullseye has paid for everyone and everything, and it makes sure they can keep getting those darts, but it's not the only one that was thrown at the dartboard.
SPEAKER_02And and labels need you to have that perception in order for you to sign on the dotted line. So they will continue to invest in their own image and have the fancy offices and things like that and all of the branding because they need to persuade those artists who have the most momentum to sign with them over the other label. I'm primarily talking about the major labels here as well, uh, not so much the indie labels. The major labels are there to try and attract the best artists, and an artist has a huge amount of momentum. They're on all the editorials, they're selling out venues. They need to get that artist to sign on the dotted line. And if another label comes along that looks like it has potentially more resources, more success, etc., then they're going to lose that artist. So for them, it's all about the branding. So don't expect to sign on the dotted line and things happen, things need to be happening already.
TikTok Trends, Influencers, And Fan Accounts
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I don't think it's necessarily a negative though. Like it's not a negative, but I'd say to me. I don't see the major labels as these big evil things. Like we know a lot of people that work there. We've worked with them before. Like there are some amazing people that are so passionate that work there. Um, however, I think the myth is that the end goal is to get signed, and that will lead to everything and anything. And if you speak to a lot of the people that work in majors, especially like ANRs, they'll agree with us on that. Like it's it that's not how it works. Yes, you might see some success, but it's not a a done deal when you get signed.
SPEAKER_02Another myth actually just popped in my head is the um those fines that we were talking about, the Spotify gets removed, comes from the distributors because the it's the distributor that emails, isn't it? It's actually Spotify themselves. Yeah, I see. That are finding the distributors.
SPEAKER_01So of course they're gonna have the most issues with it because they've got the most artists releasing through them. But yeah, a lot of people say it's distro kid's fault and distrokid are trying to take my money and all things like this. And yeah, it's the same thing as what we were saying before. We've never seen it happen before to any artists we've worked with.
SPEAKER_02So and I think behind the scenes it must be a nightmare for Distro Kids. Oh my god, I'd hate to be working there. I'd love to have them on, actually. Yeah, I'd love to have you on and know what's going on because you guys are getting a hard time at the moment because you have to send that email, not Spotify, and therefore reputations are getting damaged. And we don't we don't have a preference on any distributors at all or uh any that we work with closer than others, so any distributor really. But yeah, it must be crazy there.
SPEAKER_00I wouldn't necessarily say this is a myth, but people are sold on having radio campaigns really early.
SPEAKER_04Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01And then they are sold on spot plays and all these community radios and like maybe the occasional college radio in America. And so they'll get these these spot plays from all around the world.
SPEAKER_02But if you're not from that country, you don't realise that nobody's listening.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but but it's also like even if they are listening, it's gonna be like two people. Or if you'd spend because radio plug is really expensive, as they should be, because a good one has spent years building their contacts. But if you go for someone that's just getting you random spot plays across the world, you may as well have spent that money on ads where you can be really targeted and own the data. I'm so hot on people owning data. Like whenever we run ad campaigns, we run it through the artists, ad manager, so that they can see the data, but they also own it. Because it's one of those things like where I was saying about how Spotify, you can use that data to impact your marketing. It's the same with your ads, you have all this data. It can impact your marketing because you can see where it's working, but also you can you reuse that data for retargeting ads or starting again on a new single? Like that there's so much you can do with it. But yeah, radio is something where I wouldn't bring it into a later point where you know you're gonna at least get a play on like a good radio station. Because even if you get a spot play on a really big radio station, so BBC Radio Six, something like that, um, it's a spot play. How many people are gonna shazam that song and listen to it? Whereas what if they'd heard you on Spotify and then saved it and then played it repeatedly?
SPEAKER_02Pre-saves.
SPEAKER_01Oh, presaves.
SPEAKER_02Are they still the thing?
SPEAKER_01People still are pretty hot on it.
SPEAKER_02Really?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, they still like it. Pre-saves are unless you're getting tens of thousands, they're pointless. There's such a bad use of budget as well. People will run ads on their pre-save. It's like you think someone that's never heard of you is going to click on that link. They're not even going to click on the link if they had heard of you. Like such a big ask.
SPEAKER_02Social media space. Yeah. You're giving up a full story and all that attention to everybody.
SPEAKER_01That's just a big ask of the end user. It doesn't benefit them. If they liked you enough, they are going to listen as soon as it's out. Forcing them to save it to their catalogue beforehand is not the way of going about it. And I don't actually agree that it helps with the algorithm. No. From like a logical point of view, how dodgy does it look on release day having immediate saves, but those people didn't stream it? That is not going to look like a good positive trigger, is it? I would much rather on release day you push people to stream and they streamed it when they want to and they were available to stream it, and then they're probably going to save it because it's a good quality track. That's how you do it.
SPEAKER_02And for so long, it was just like a distributor kind of add-on. Yeah. It wasn't actually anything to do with Spotify at all.
SPEAKER_01They have countdowns and everything.
SPEAKER_02They've kind of been like, oh, if artists really want this, we'll make it.
SPEAKER_01I guess a countdown on the profile. I mean, there's no harm in doing it. It's not a negative thing, but it's also like who checks people's profiles that often to be able to even spot it?
What Labels Actually Do
SPEAKER_02At the start of the podcast, I said a lot of things have been kind of brought over from like the 60s and the 70s. Those kind of like countdowns and building anticipation for a release over a long period of time. Very old school and and like like teasing things and teasing your audience doesn't work in 2026. You can probably do it for like a few days. You can do it and then drop big artists as well. Or a big artist, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Like if Harry Styles decided to tease a release for a month, people will be totally there for it because they're obsessed with him and there's such a huge audience for it. Whereas if you're an artist, even if you've got like a couple of 10,000 followers, a couple million streams, it's just too much to ask of your audience. I'd much rather use that social media space where you can actually push them to stream if there's somewhere for them to go.
SPEAKER_02Any more points before we wrap it up?
SPEAKER_00I don't think so.
SPEAKER_02No? No. All good.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Cool. Well, thanks very much for watching. I hope you've enjoyed it. Drop it a like if you're uh watching on YouTube or even a comment on Spotify. You can comment on Spotify now and rate podcasts and things like that. So that would be nice. So uh see you in the next video or podcast.