Inside A Label Putting Writers Ahead | How The Songwriter Gets Paid More

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In this episode, we sit down with Alistair Weber, CEO of The Other Songs, to talk about the modern music industry and what it really takes to build artists today.

We dive into how Ren reached a No.1 album without relying on Spotify playlists, why songwriters only receive a fraction of streaming revenue, and why artists should start protecting their music from AI training in their contracts.

We also discuss the growing market for music catalog sales, how labels actually decide who to sign, and why independent artists need to think more like entrepreneurs in today’s industry.

If you're an artist, songwriter, or anyone trying to understand how the music business is evolving, this episode breaks down the opportunities and the challenges shaping the industry right now.

Transcript

Welcome And AI Consent Warning;

SPEAKER_02 0:00

The copyrights in this deal will not be trained without consent with AI. Get that in your contracts now.

SPEAKER_01 0:05

Welcome back to the music industry podcast. Today we're joined by Al Weber, who's the CEO of the other songs, which is label, publishers, managers. Is that right?

SPEAKER_02 0:15

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 0:16

All of the above. How's it going? You all good?

SPEAKER_02 0:18

I'm good. How are you guys? Yes. All good. Thank you. Yeah. Can't complain.

SPEAKER_01 0:22

Cup of tea in hand. Yeah, all good. But you've got some stuff coming up. Like you're you're pretty busy, aren't you? Yeah.

Who Is The Other Songs;

SPEAKER_00 0:27

What are you working on at the moment?

Brit School Fundraiser And Vision;

Origins Of The Live Songwriter Series;

SPEAKER_02 0:29

We're working on an event in May, um, which is a fundraiser for the Brit School. Um, and we're coming up with plans for further arts education for the rest of the UK as well. Um, and using the Brit School as a real success story of how arts funding uh has gone and gone such a long way with that free school in South London. How can we do that in the rest of the UK? Uh and also keep the Brit School funded properly for years to come. So I'm really focused on curating our lineup for that. And we previously did two events at the London Palladium um with the Ivers actually. And so this show will be in Ivers Week, but our partner will be the Brit School this time. Um and and yeah, we'll be celebrating songwriters and we'll be having alumni from the school, and it's gonna be a real celebration of young people in arts and songwriters. So is that through the other songs uh primarily? Yeah, so that's the other songs live, um, which is our live series. Um, and it's that's really how we started the company back in 2017. We started with a 50 in a 50 cap venue where we asked songwriters to perform some of their songs that they'd written for other people and talk about the meaning behind the songs and play them acoustically. Um, and actually back then songwriters would play songs they were trying to get cut by artists, so they would come and pitch songs live. So it was quite similar to to the songwriter rounds in Nashville, but we were doing it in London back in 2017, and when that event started to get more traction, that's when we set up a record label and a publishing company as the pool of talent grew around that event. So our whole nucleus has been giving songwriters the stage uh as a live show, and then we started to pick up artists and writers and yeah, because you have like quite a lot now, don't you?

SPEAKER_01 2:25

You have songwriters, artists, producers as well.

SPEAKER_02 2:28

Yeah, and producers, yeah. We made it.

Artist Independence And Working With Ren;

SPEAKER_01 2:29

So what kind of artists have you got on your roster? Because you've got Ren, haven't you?

SPEAKER_02 2:32

We have Ren. Yeah. Um he is now fully independent um away from us. So his new music has been released independently by him.

SPEAKER_03 2:40

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:41

But we we spent a good good five, six years working with him um on his debut album, Sick Boy, that went to number one, uh, which was incredible. But that was exciting, yeah. Yeah, it was a m it was amazing.

SPEAKER_00 2:53

Um that seems to be something you champion is artist independence and kind of that freedom from what we know about uh the other songs. It's uh a case of giving artists kind of their freedom and and fair share of the phone.

SPEAKER_02 3:06

Yeah, it's about knowing when to step in and when to step back from the process. Every artist is different. Um, some artists need much more from a label, some artists don't need the label at all. Um, and you've got just got to work out right from the off what the objectives are for both for both parties. And if everyone's in agreement, I mean with Ren, I'd actually known him personally since I was 18 years old working at Island Records. So he was one of the first artists that I brought into Island Records.

SPEAKER_01 3:37

You in AR.

SPEAKER_02 3:38

In AR.

SPEAKER_01 3:38

Oh, okay.

Storytelling, Sampling, And Fanbuilding;

SPEAKER_02 3:39

Um, and he got sick quite soon after I brought him in, and therefore he went on this uh incredibly difficult journey trying to be diagnosed, basically, and he was misdiagnosed for many, many years, and we kept in touch. And so when he started to feel better, uh he signed to our publishing company, and we worked with him up to the point where of n until he was like, I've got these demos, or I've got these, and they're actually pretty much finished records for the album that eventually became Sick Boy, and he shot all this incredible content. I mean, for someone who was struggling with Lyme's disease and the after effects of that quite significantly, I was so struck by how hardworking he was compared to any artist I'd ever worked with. And so when he came with this body of work and this idea, um, we just lent in and we we had a goal. We I remember saying right at the beginning when we signed that record, we said to him, we are gonna have I think we said a top five album at that point. We didn't know it was gonna go all the way, but even a top five record at that point for a totally independently run campaign without leaning on Spotify, without leaning on traditional radio or anything. You know, we were just building his fan base. Um, and that proved to be a model that I think pretty much everyone is doing is using now.

Rolling Stone Collab And TikTok Catalogs;

SPEAKER_00 5:11

What was it that really kind of broke Ren and built that fan base outside of Spotify?

Diversifying: Theatre, Physical, And Data;

SPEAKER_02 5:17

Uh his communication with his fans and his relentless ability to tell stories. Yeah. And he's one of those artists that really speaks to people because it is genuine and it's authentic. And he ha when when somebody goes to research Wren, they're in Ren's world and they can spend hours and hours and hours going into his backstory and his tales and his you know, he spans so many different genres, so there's no way you can get bored by him. You know, when people say, Oh, I don't like Wren, they might have seen one percent of what he can do. Because the next video you see, he's a totally different type of artist. But I think the the thing that fascinates me about him is his storytelling and his ability to just just own it live. And he hasn't done much live yet, but my god, he is he's incredible. Really? Um yeah. And when I say live, I mean selling his own tickets and shows. But I know that's coming this summer.

SPEAKER_00 6:21

What I found very interesting about him is how he sampled like almost classic songs and was able to create something like above and beyond, like for example, uh I think the verve he used. Yeah. Bittersweet symphony, I think it was. And does that have publishing publications when an artist does that?

SPEAKER_02 6:40

Or if if the verb if the team teams are listening here, that that would be a good one to get to get cleared. Yeah, yeah. Um, because yeah, Ren absolutely smashed that and the fat boy slim one as well. I mean, he's he's flipped so many different things. Um it's one of his real skills. His knowledge of music is is uh is is is insane. Um and his respect for other artists as well.

Platforms, Ads, And Quality Filters;

SPEAKER_00 7:03

I just wanted to say a big congratulations to the new tropics who last month were our successful submission for a Rolling Stone feature on the music industry portal. And also to celebrate this, because this is our first collaboration with the Rolling Stone, we are offering that for free now, just for this month. So all you've got to do is sign up for a free account, and the submission will be available for Rolling Stone just for this month. So I'll leave the link below. If you want to also be like the new tropics and be featured in Rolling Stone and considered for their next set of features, then click the link below, sign up and submit because there's a big chance that you might be successful.

SPEAKER_01 7:48

So you've worked with Ren, but there are tons of others. You've done like catalog music as well, um, like TikTok sounds and things like that. Is that right?

SPEAKER_02 7:55

That's right, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:56

How does that work? That's right.

Catalog Deals And Caring For Rights;

SPEAKER_02 7:58

Uh well, we spotted a bit of a gap in the market, I suppose. Um uh and we started signing a lot of enormous TikTok background records that are the most famous pieces of music on the planet, but not necessarily the most streamed. So on social media they do billions of views and people use them all the time in all kinds of different content, but not many people go to Spotify to actually listen to them. And so we thought, well, why don't we try and sign some of these songs and then we can either remix them, sample them, turn them into brands. Um, and it's been a fascinating world to get into because a lot of the majors and other indies were busy trying to find the next Ren or Ray or traditional artists, and we were kind of doing trying to do both. Um, and and ultimately it's uh it's the music business, and we need to be able to keep the lights on in order to spend the time we need to develop artists, and so actually by diversifying our business and our business model has allowed us to do the things that we really enjoy doing, which is building artists and developing songwriters and helping build brands and doing our live show and giving back to the arts education and communities, and you know, we really want, we love being broad, and people always say, How do you put can you put the other songs into a you know a a sentence? And I always say, No, and I don't I don't want to. And you know, me and my brother, my co-founder, um, we always said from the beginning, we're not gonna be constrained by what everybody else is doing. We're trying, we just do what we love.

SPEAKER_01 9:47

So same with genres as well, right? Like you've got Ren, but then you do like the musical theatre stuff.

SPEAKER_02 9:52

Um you've got such a wild array of another niche that's not a niche. Yeah. So you've got hundreds of thousands of tickets being sold every second for musical theatre, yet music somehow felt distance from that.

SPEAKER_04 10:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:05

And what we've tried to do, and uh, we're still in the process of doing it, is make music a centerpiece for the musicals so fans can can connect in the same way they do with going to see a traditional gig or concert.

SPEAKER_04 10:21

Yeah.

Why Some Catalog Buyers Just Sit;

SPEAKER_02 10:22

Um it's still bums on seats, right? You can still sell f physical in the theatre, which hasn't been happening, believe it or not. You know, you've got all of these amazing shows everywhere, and yet physical is still something that we're working on in bridging that gap. Um, and then of course you've got this his these historic shows that have uh uh touched millions and millions of people, but the actual production companies behind these shows aren't marketing things to them or they're not selling things to them. And I don't mean that in a in a way just to kind of rip people off. It's more that people do actually people do actually want connections with with these shows.

SPEAKER_01 11:02

So by like the whole wicked franchise say people want to connect with it, exactly.

Indies’ Squeeze And Smart Optimism;

SPEAKER_02 11:06

Well, um and people want to want to take stuff away, yeah. Um and also it's it it educates the producers who we we now say are the managers. So producers of shows are the managers of the band. The band are on stage, the producers are the managers. Um and so that's how we we like to think about it. And so we say to the producers, well, we'll give you the Spotify data, and if something's kicking off in Korea in a in Seoul, then maybe you should do maybe you should put your show there, maybe the the the show should tour that. It this is simple stuff that we know in the m music industry, but in theatre world, it's still Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:49

Have you found that then like looking at theatre, looking at TikTok sounds, looking at traditional artist growth? You're kind of using the same methods to grow them, yeah, but they're just different products in a way.

SPEAKER_04 12:01

It's lit it's exactly the same.

SPEAKER_01 12:02

Yeah. And what are you guys focusing on predominantly? Do you find yourself having a big social focus, more looking at the streaming platforms? Are there certain areas that you are finding are popping off more than others?

AI’s Promise, Perils, And Regulation;

SPEAKER_02 12:14

I think it changes almost weekly. There's always a new platform, there's always a new way of doing things. At the moment it's uh at the moment that everyone's talking about ads, everyone's talking about meta ads and how getting the best ROI on those and streaming helps trigger algorithms, but you know, next week there'll be something different. By the time this comes out, I'll sound dated. And so yeah, it's just this you gotta keep up. But I think the the thing that we always look for is is quality. You know, when we look at the TikTok sounds, we're not we're not just signing thousands and thousands of TikTok sounds. We've got literally the top five or ten biggest in the world. They are the ones that have also been big on Instagram and YouTube and Snap. And so we know that God forbid TikTok comes down, then Instagram will still be a place for them or the next platform. And ultimately, when we're looking at musicals, we want to look at musicals that have been around for a while. Um, and so that have those fan bases that we can tap into. And when we look at artists and songwriters, we look at, you know, are they really good songwriters? Because we believe the song is at the heart of everything. And if you can write a good song, you can always work on the production. But the song is the most important thing, it's the thing that's timeless. So each area of our business has got to be we we've got to sign the best in that area for the best chance of success.

SPEAKER_00 13:42

Aside from TikTok, you've bought catalogues.

Don’t Release Unlicensed AI Music;

SPEAKER_02 13:44

And we we manage, we manage two at the moment. Uh, and we are actually in the middle of um a we're in the middle of negotiating our first deal with um, it's not private equity, but it's somewhere where would give us more access to funds to be able to buy more catalogue. Um, because you know, I'm sitting here and people are coming to me going, oh, I'm just about to sell to a suit over here because they're offering me a 10 to 12 times multiple or whatever. And I'm going, but okay, that's great. But are they actually going to manage it properly for you? Do they know you? Do they respect the work and all those things? And it just got to a point last year where me and Billy were like, we need to be in this game to be an alternative option so that people and songwriters who we are friends with so many writers that are selling their or parts of. Um, let's be part of that conversation. Um, because we're not going anywhere. You know, we don't wear suits and look in spreadsheets. We actually really care about the songs that we have. And we don't have that.

SPEAKER_01 14:51

Well, are they often just like chasing a payday in a way of like, if I sell this, it means I I have some liquid cash, which would be great. Yeah. But then you don't actually know what they're gonna do with the music is is that sometimes how the deals look? And then you want to step in and be like, well, actually look after it.

Sharing Master Revenue With Songwriters;

SPEAKER_02 15:06

Actually, half it so so um I mean the f the first thing I say to to I've started saying to songwriters who want to sell 100% is why don't you sell 50%? You know, if you need uh I don't know, let's say a d uh um a catalogue is worth five million, do you really need five million right now, or why don't you sell it for two and a half and then work with a partner to then grow your two and a half to five? You know, need what do you need right now? That that to me feels much more equitable to a songwriter, and rather than sort of hoovering up all these rights when songwriters are in a more vulnerable position and then not including them in the conversations. I think that's that that that's something we're we're we're working on as a as a proposition. Um and you know, it's interesting how many how many people do think now is a good time to part ways with some of their catalogue. But it can it depends on the deal, it depends on the control and uh you know all of those things. Um we actually want to even though it if a songwriter sells a hundred percent of their rights to us, we are working on a percent that still goes to the songwriter, even though they've sold us a hundred percent for the lifetime that we have it. And if one day we want to sell because it's the music business in 20 years' time or whatever it is, then they would take the upside of of that as well as a way of keeping them always part of the conversation and helping estates and families organise their rights um in a way that I think they deserve.

From Majors To Indie Freedom;

SPEAKER_00 16:49

And what's kind of the interest of each party for a catalogue sale and buy? So, for example, if a label were to buy a catalogue, do they accelerate it and make more money from that catalogue than the songwriter themselves could do? Or is it a c simply a case of they calculate how much they can make from it and therefore will buy it and the songwriter gets their money and they're happy earlier and then the label just sits on it and waits for their break-even point. What what's kind of the dynamic there?

SPEAKER_02 17:23

Um Well if a songwriter keeps their publishing, um then a label can buy and sell the masters and that doesn't affect the songwriter share. Um so if you're if your question is is if a if a company buys the songwriter share, do they just sit on it? I mean, quite often, yes. Quite often, yes, because the market each year is is growing. So as more markets come alive, as streaming becomes bigger, as Spotify gets a bigger market share, Apple, etc. So um, but the real companies that the that that care about the songs will be actively trying to get more syncs or covers or um new versions or um yeah, there's a lot of ways you can you can grow these catalogues, but you've got to be really active. Um a lot of the companies that are buying bulk catalogues and spending billions, it is literally going, okay, well, this is quite a good use for my money. Do I stick it in a savings account and get three percent, or do I buy catalogues and get seven percent?

SPEAKER_04 18:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:33

You know, that's the how they look at it. To me, that's wrong, you know. Seeing it as like an investment rather than like rather than something you're gonna actually like help grow, you've got to love what you do. Um, you know, I'm not saying everyone who who um who puts all that money into stuff doesn't care. I'm just I I just think there's another way forward.

Physical Sales And Fan Ownership;

SPEAKER_01 18:55

Um It's interesting that you were talking about the industry growing as a whole and how there is more money going into it. However, if you hear from like a an independent artist perspective, which is a lot of our listeners, they will say, I feel like I've got less opportunity to make money because I'll put music on Spotify and I don't really make much, and I don't see where the future of that goes because it's in their opinion getting worse. How do you see that? Because you're seeing that things are growing.

Refocusing A&R And Signing Less;

SPEAKER_02 19:23

Uh I'm I'm seeing the whole business growing. Um I'm not seeing the growth in the in the bottom half or bottom quarter, you know, it's harder than ever. Artists are now independent artists are competing with uh so many more tracks being released because of AI. Um the market share deals that the bigger companies have with platforms like Spotify make it make it easier for bigger artists who just have a bigger market share to make the lion's share of the money. So it's a really, really tough time. Um if you look at it face value for exactly how it is now. But I do I will I I'm an optimist and I do like to to think that an independent artist is only only um days away from having success because of the access to their fans and because of the access to to to to good uh technology and uh you've just gotta be so consistent. You've got to be consistent and you'll fail and you'll get better. Um and you'll cut through and you'll be able to make a business for yourself with your fans if you're smart. And you've got to be smart in order to be a musician these days. You can't just be a musician and expect things to happen for you. Um so I think, yeah, the modern day artists, it's really, really tough.

SPEAKER_01 20:56

You mentioned AI as well. Where do you sit on that? Because obviously there are gonna be some labels, I'm guessing, in the future, that are gonna monetized from that because they will find a way of whether that's creating an artist that is an AI artist and then using AI to make it, and then they're not actually paying an artist anything. Where do you sit on that?

SPEAKER_02 21:14

I am on the side of the artist and the songwriter always. Um nothing should be released without a license. Um and AI companies need consent to train their models on copyrighted work. Um the technology is brilliant.

SPEAKER_01 21:36

I don't know if you've tried it, but yeah, I've seen that app where you can put a track in, it would change the genre of it. Yeah. It's incredible. The technology is amazing.

SPEAKER_02 21:44

You can't deny the technology's there. So part of me, I get excited when there's new technology.

SPEAKER_04 21:51

Yeah.

People Over Percentages In Deals;

SPEAKER_02 21:51

Um, but it needs to be regulated. And the tech a bit like you know, things in the past, the tech has come first and regulated. come second and now we're in that we're in that phase of regulation. Um Lucian Grange did an amazing speech the other day. His I think he was picking up a Billboard award about AI. Just saying that this is this isn't just a uh this isn't a new technology. This fundamentally changes the way that we create and I think that's yeah it's quite powerful to hear him and he went through all the different phases of um you know vinyl to C D to all the all the different phases and he thinks this one is the most critical and I agree with him um and we've got a duty to do the right thing. I wrote a piece last last year in The Guardian actually which which um which was all about regulation AI and and how we just need to slow down you know we don't we we we we we just need to take stock and and and make sure that artists and songwriters consent for their work to be to be trained. If that's if if if an artist or songwriter wants their work to be trained by AI we can't stop them doing that. But all parties within that song need to consent to it not just one party.

Work Ethic, Resilience, And Fit;

SPEAKER_01 23:15

I see so your your main argument is the AI is only learning how to do this because it's taken the music and the skills from yeah which you can't do in any other you can't really do that in the music industry in a way where someone can't just take your work and r re-release it. There's licensing and things like that.

SPEAKER_02 23:31

Yeah but if you if you go to to Suno now or or one of them you just go hey I like a hip hop record and um uh 100 and 100 BPM or whatever it is um it will give it to you back but you don't know where that's come from. So I think it's quite dangerous for an independent artist. It's very tempting but I think it's dangerous for an independent artist to release those songs because in the future and even now there's technology that um that scrapes um not scrapes what's the word crawl that detects that detects um where the AI has come from in there.

SPEAKER_04 24:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:07

And so you may well be marketing a record for two years your AI record for two years and then it get taken down because in the future it's like oh that's come from a platform that's not regulated. So you've got to be careful if there are independent songwriters and artists listening to this, you've got to be careful using AI and releasing it and making money from it just because you don't know yet if there's a license for it. So your work may get taken down in what tomorrow or five years' time from now. And you might put a lot of effort into marketing it.

SPEAKER_04 24:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:40

And your business model does seem to be quite you know pro supporting the songwriter am I right? You've got uh quite a unique um a like shared distribution of royalties across your songwriters network, is that right?

Why Labels Still Matter;

Brit School Impact And Funding Gap;

SPEAKER_02 24:55

Yes yes um we're very very proud to be we were one of the first labels to to do this back in 2020 um where we started the company in 2018 and so we had two years worth of data of some artists we'd signed their publishing as well so we could see the publishing statements and we could see the um recording statements. And on the same song we saw five times the amount of record um revenue on the recording side to the songwriting side. And so we looked into that a bit bit closer and and just realized that we thought there was a mistake and actually realized that on streaming um 55% of the song goes to the record label and only 15% of the song goes to the songwriter. The 15% on top of that goes that's commissioned to the streaming services. So you think about that I mean that's quite a shocking stat when you think about you could write a song for an artist write a whole song 100% and I could give it to you both to sing and I'll get 15% and you get 55% just by recording it. So how did the song become so devalued? Where did that happen? Um and so we thought well we can't change that rate but we can start a conversation so what if we gave songwriters a percent of the so non-performing songwriters because obviously there are artists that write their own songs this doesn't apply to them this applies to non-performing songwriters and songwriters get a percent of our the label's master share and they don't sit behind any costs or anything they get paid as soon as the first stream happens the songwriter will get um a percentage and so when we came out to the press it was actually quite difficult like we we hired a thing it was it was really expensive we we hired a PR and like no one would pick it up and we were like that's really really disappointing. I think only music ally um thank you uh to them uh they reported it and we were like we were like oh brilliant at least someone's uh talked about it and then actually we then spoke about it on social media and then lots of other labels because we encouraged other labels to to do the same thing like let's be honest it actually doesn't cost the label that much money people say um oh it's it's it's it's a nightmare for our PL or it's really um uh it's hard to do from a tech standpoint it's like no it's not you know it's the same thing as paying a producer out or it's the same thing as paying if you've got two artists on a record you're gonna pay one of them 50% the other one 50% we're just giving a percent to songwriters and using the same tech it's not hard any labels or artists actually for that fact releasing themselves I think you should give some of your master share away to songwriters it's not hard it's an easy thing to do. If you have a hit you won't notice it if you don't have a hit it doesn't matter anyway.

Arts Education Data And Policy Plea;

SPEAKER_01 28:06

Yeah yeah people are so caught up in the finer details and it's like you haven't actually got an audience yet to care about that when you actually get the numbers in put the value back in the song. Yeah the song's where it starts you can't have a recording without a song you can't so did other labels follow you when you started doing this yes that's nice it was great yeah I sp it's been like I think giving back is the best way of moving forward you've got you've got to and do what's right and start conversations and uh the independent sector can do that you know yeah because you worked at a major yeah yeah yeah for quite some time right when I did yeah yeah wasland yeah so being in that world and then coming out and realizing you kind of have a bit more control over how things are distributed and how the artists and the songwriters treated how did that feel like what what were the main changes for you going from AR and a major doing your job to having a label and making those decisions yourself?

Updating Deals For The AI Era;

Long-Term Thinking Beats Short Wins;

SPEAKER_02 29:00

Uh I'll speak for my brother as well Billy because he was at Warner's as well so we both came from major backgrounds and were you both ARs we were fighting for tracks is that how it happened yeah you know the funny thing is we were we went I think we we went in for about five records um competing there was always a third party and they always won't that kind of makes it better though like it would it would suck if your brother beat we we were laughing saying saying oh that's you know and then we realised okay well if that's the case we may as well start a company together. Yeah you know it's everybody the blind leading the blind really um but we we didn't know what we were doing we we we we left does anyone you know like we left kind of because at the you know you were at these big big companies in Ireland was so lucky you had a finance department you had a legal division you had all of these people all the time um and I don't think I understood what they did and and then left and I was like oh my goodness um and I have to shout out Sophia Humphreys who joined us she was at Ireland with me for uh five years and she came and and took the the leap of faith to join the other songs and when it was just me Billy and so and she she really was the glue uh making everything actually work but she'll admit that she was learning on the job as well I mean we'd never run a company before um but that freedom to just put out records that you liked and go and make things happen and learn that the small wins actually made us most happy like I look back at that the those times and getting the first New Music Friday which was a big deal back in 2018 you know like those were fun those are the best times like signing an artist and selling 50 tickets it was just great you know and then life gets harder when you grow I think oh yeah it's more responsibility isn't it like there's more people there's more overheads all of that sort of stuff yeah and you don't gotta think about keeping the lights on as well as doing all the stuff that you you love doing it's just more responsibility isn't it it's more responsibility but it's it's good I mean it's it's it's last year was really tough because we got to we did grow we've had we had a little bit of success and it was like how do we get to the next the next level and I'm really proud that now I look at our team and I'm so proud of them and everything they've achieved with the company and I'm proud that we brought in some people who have had major success at other companies who are teaching me and my brother what to do because you know we didn't go to university we didn't we don't have business degrees we don't have any of this stuff um we just lead by the heart by our heart and and that that can get us into trouble sometimes. So um it's like it's nice to have some pros around us to keep us in check.

SPEAKER_01 31:48

What's the phrase again? It's like try and be the most stupid person that what is it? There's a phrase about being the most stupid person in the room. Yeah there we go.

Advice To Emerging Artists;

SPEAKER_00 31:56

Yeah try to be the dumbest person in the room yeah there we go yeah yeah yeah do you ever find that there is sort of something that's expected of you when you package yourself as a record label or publisher where you think I don't want to do that or that should be redone a certain way but because artists or songwriters or the industry expect this of me I kind of have to do it.

SPEAKER_02 32:21

This is really weird to say but I I actually wanted to a few years ago I was like I I really hate the term record label. I just didn't I've intended that for a while it just didn't fit but I didn't know what else we were because we were putting out records.

SPEAKER_01 32:35

So it's so hard to get artists to sign to you if you're not a record label because they're like what is it then? It's it's so difficult yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:41

Yeah so there was a bit of that I often think in the music industry it's like we're still using terms from the sixties and the seventies which don't quite make sense anymore.

SPEAKER_02 32:51

You're trying to fit them into a yeah into a box.

SPEAKER_00 32:55

So like record labels are literally meant to be creating the physical that goes into HMV but that's not going to happen anymore. But they they still end up using these terms and I do find there's kind of a a mushy um sort of blur between what like a manager does a publisher does a record label does a distributor does.

SPEAKER_01 33:18

And who gets cuts as well like even that's kind of blurred.

SPEAKER_02 33:21

You're essentially like a uh a it's not sexy but you're a music rights manager. That's how I see it. But it's not a sexy it's not cool. I think a record label has become cool again. I'm like owning it now. I think it's great and I'm really proud to have a record label and a music publishing company I think that there's a hell of a lot that labels can offer um even though it's much easier for artists to get records out you know the the the belief that you can put into an artist and wrap a team around an artist and go, right, we we are gonna aim really high and go for it and we're gonna do uh shoots every week and we're gonna we're gonna do all kinds of different crazy marketing stunts and you know more brains on a project is all is good. Like human collaboration is is something that I love and we you know we sit there as a team and come up with crazy crazy shit and we do it. Like we have an idea in the morning and do it by the afternoon.

SPEAKER_01 34:20

That's the best thing about independence though. It's also it doesn't have to go through this huge chain to to get signed off yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:26

Exactly and I just think it's you know and you say that about physical but we're doing a hell of a lot of physical again yeah we're doing a lot of physical because the we're we're we're we we want fans to to own part of the experience and and they the fans love it. They love being part of I mean think of Ren I mean a lot of his chart success was was based off his fan base wanting to collect his physical music sometimes they'd they they they'd buy a vinyl a CD and a cassette all of the same record but they wanted to be part of his his journey um and and have these pieces of art essen essentially so so I think there's a there's a there's a big role for a record label these days although I do think artists are all different and um you can have success on your own no question about that no question um and managers are entrepreneurs are business owners and are absolutely amazing and there are really the best managers usually work with partners that can add to what they're doing um and the best managers respect the right record labels or the managers build their own record labels in their in their team so yeah I wish there were there were more more entrepreneurial managers to work with we often sign a lot of artists without managers um how do you find your artists that you've got an A and R team that is constantly out looking for them how does it work or is it like you and Billy might come across something you're like should we just go sign that like is it is there a clear structure that how there is now there wasn't there wasn't we were signing lots of stuff lots of singles lots of EPs um and I'd say two years ago I think we lost our way a little bit I'll be honest about that. I think we lost our way lost sight of who we are um and so we stopped signing and a lot uh midway through last year we said right next six months we're not gonna sign anything um we're gonna focus on building the team so we hired Harry Davis who came over from he who is at C um RCA and Concord before that absolutely brilliant AR man and he now runs the department and in his first day he said I've been saving this artist I want to I want to sign it and uh he he he played it to us and we were like oh my god this is incredible um we we gotta do this and so Harry signed his first artist in his first day with us which again you know working working for an in in indie we can just get on and do stuff um so yeah now having Harry Harry in um and his team is is obviously gonna up the ante in terms of what we sign but yeah I mean how do you uh approach it in a way where you're probably still fighting with majors and other independents for a deal when an artist comes they get offered multiple quite often especially if they're in demand.

SPEAKER_01 37:17

How do you find that is it very much the people that are the selling point or is it the percentage that you're offering like how how does that work?

SPEAKER_02 37:25

I think it's people yeah I think it's people and it's vibe. I think it's I think if if you've got passion for something um yeah we definitely are more competitive in our in in the deals that we you know we've we've done very short term um to very long term um but but we are traditional in a sense that I believe that if people are working really hard on something and adding real value to something then the deal needs to be equitable for everybody because everybody wins. I think I've been in situations where it's been too one sided on the artist or too one sided on on the label and it doesn't really work. It always ends in tears. So at the end of the day I think it's all all about the people it's all about the passion that you've got and ultimately if you click you know it's like it's you you you're gonna spend more time with this artist or writer than you are your family sometimes. So it's got to be able you've got to be able to to to click with them. And also I think it's really important this is something I've learned is is you've you've both got to have similar like aim and goal and everyone's got to work towards that and everyone's got to be in agreement of that. And I think if that hasn't been in place and things change along the way but at the right at the beginning if you just go into it saying oh we get along great that's not enough because you've got to work hard. Like if you I I just believe in working really hard for an artist and if an artist or writer isn't going to put in that same work ethic it's not going to work. Or if the team aren't passionate about it, I know that they're not going to put in the same work ethic as a really passionate artist or really um hardworking artist. So yeah you just gotta because you're gonna get knocked down and you've got to have that resilience to get back up again and put another single out or try a new sound or uh be willing to adapt and change and like go through the motions with an artist.

SPEAKER_01 39:23

You see how long it takes to break an artist these days it's like a lot of a lot of shite yeah a lot of hard work a lot of not being paid and all of those things I remember I I remember I saw Olivia Dean at this tiny little venue in Cambridge about six, seven years ago and there was probably like a hundred people there and she sold it out but then looking at that growth but it took so long and I feel like that's something that especially from an artist perspective when you're writing and putting out writing and putting out it can feel like forever but really it's not and then you look back and that time was great fun.

SPEAKER_02 39:56

Like that's the enjoyable part that the journey and the growing and all of that but yeah I saw those clips recently because everyone's re everyone's yeah showing those clips I saw her in 2019 or 2020 like in COVID when she went to the Brit school didn't she went to Brit school yeah so some of our audience are US based by the way so may not know what the Brit School is and like all of that and may not understand what you're doing in that way.

SPEAKER_01 40:19

So do you want to explain it a little bit more like what the Brit School is and what you're hoping to do.

SPEAKER_02 40:23

Yeah sure well uh the Brit School um has been going for over 30 years. It was set up by the music industry um 30 years ago and a lot of the people that set it up have have um have retired now and so um i it was set up to give free arts education to students and kids from 13 to 18 years old 14 to 18. I'm gonna get some of these um stats a little bit wrong I think um but yeah 14 to 18 and the idea was that it didn't matter where you were from it didn't matter what background you were from but you were given free arts education and um I passionately passionately believe that every school in the world should have access to arts education um and the Brit school is a shining leader of that because fast forward 30 years at the Grammys last weekend four Grammys were won by Brit school students and this is a school of 1400 people in South London. And it's quite extraordinary the impact that this school have has had and you know you look over the years of alumni that have gone there it's Adele it's Amy Winehouse it's Leona Lewis FK Twiggs Olivia Dean Lola Young um Ray Jesse Jesse J actors Tom Holland uh Chris Jumbo I mean there's the list goes on and on Laura Karner um is another artist that went there um it really is incredible um and we are putting on a show in May to essentially fund the school going forward because there's 3.4 million pounds deficit every single year that needs to be raised to keep that school going. The music industry 30 years ago helped create that school um I believe still they should be doing more to fund considering the success that's come from that school I believe the music industry should be doing more to keep this particular school alive um and I also believe that our government should be doing a hell of a lot more to get arts funding in the rest of the UK um because the arts the arts don't just it's not just about finding the next Adele um it's about giving kids the opportunity to be part of a part of a support network and be part of a community um and it does so much for socioeconomic reasons as it does them becoming musicians after they've been at the school and it's a crazy stat like one pound that goes into the arts five comes back you know it's on a on a P ⁇ L if the government looks at the arts as a PL it's incredibly successful um and so it feels like an absolute no-brainer because it it it lifts the mood for so many people up and down the country and yet we don't see it as a as as a major part of our society or at least the government don't in terms of their spending it's the first thing that's cut from curriculums. Forty two percent of schools don't submit a music GCSE 84% of schools don't submit a dance GCSE 27% of teachers of arts teachers have been cut so Since 2010. So you go, where are the next Olivia Deans or the Lola Young's going to come from if we keep going on that trajectory? And I think we've got to be doing more. We've got to be looking at ourselves. I'm talking about the music industry here, and go, we've all got to stand up and start, you know, if the music industry is growing by X percent every single year, what are we doing to support the younger generations coming through? What are we doing to give them opportunities? Um, and how can we show the governments that it's working in the places like the Brit School? It is working. And it has been a major export um of UK uh culture and and quite honestly, the UK right now is like tiny. Um, but in terms of culture, it's massive. And it's largely because of the success of places like the Brit School. So let's do more. Let's do more. Let's completely fund that school, but let's do more in the UK and have a bigger impact around the world. Um, and for any US listeners, it's the same in the US. The arts is so important. Um, I'm talking to Justin Tranter at the moment um about his school in Chicago, about trying to do the same thing there because it had such an impact on his life. Um, and actually Justin's coming over and performing at our London Palladium show in May, which is going to be really, really exciting. It's the 19th of May for anyone uh listening who wants to come and support and see uh yeah, support the next generation of of talent.

SPEAKER_00 45:35

Do you have any unique structures for record deals? So I was just I was going to ask that because uh obviously you think of the music industry as something as a blank canvas now and not putting into boxes. Do you do you ever look at traditional record deals in the way that they are structured and do anything unique there?

SPEAKER_02 45:57

We update our things all the time. The latest one to go in is an obvious one, and any independent artist should do the same thing is um uh the copyrights in this deal will not be trained without consent with AI. Get that in your contracts now. Yeah. Get it in. Doesn't harm. No one's gonna take it out. Everyone agrees. Um until it's violated and then you've got a you've got a case. But it's just an easy win. So things like that we we try and we try and update them all the time with with things. Um but things that are unique to us, not really. Not really. Um I I mentioned before we go we can go super short term, but what's what's the campaign? What is the artist's objective? What's the songwriter's objective? Are we talking about a long-term goal here with lots of resource? Um, whether that's people time, um, idea time, creativity, um or whether it's just purely finance. Um, there are lots of ways in which the deal deals can be can be changed. There's no there's no real one size fits all. Um when we first started, I'll never forget, when we first started, we had a meeting with a very well-known executive who I'm pretty sure you've had on this on this show. We we said, Oh yeah, we're gonna do these really short-term deals and this uh the these crazy percentages and we're gonna change the whole thing. This is back in 2018. And he said, Boys, you're gonna fail. So you're gonna go out of business and you're gonna fail. And um he was right, actually. Yeah, he was right. We very nearly did.

SPEAKER_01 47:44

And and so we did have to change it because it wasn't profitable in a way where we just weren't we just weren't long enough.

SPEAKER_02 47:51

Yeah, it just wasn't long enough. Wasn't long enough.

SPEAKER_01 47:54

Um I guess as well, if you did like a really short deal, you'd be so excited and passionate, they're so time heavy that by the time the campaign's ended, you were like, oh, done it, and that's it. And so there's not long enough to actually build momentum and grow and get to know the artists and build those relationships.

SPEAKER_02 48:10

Yeah, and do the second project and the third project. Um funnily enough, we did we we did even though we did those short deals, we did keep working with the artists, and that was like a proof of concept because we were so new that no one really wanted to commit to anything longer, and so we had to sort of prove ourselves. Whereas whereas now I I'd like to think, and we are doing deals with artists that are longer term, we're not doing as many deals, interestingly. We've got a bigger team, but we're doing less doing less and putting more into each release, every artist project, because there's so much you can do with one artist across the board. There's so many platforms, there's so much you can do with a campaign. You're you're building brands, um, and that's been the difference in us probably two years ago to now is less is more, more focus. If you sign to the other songs, it's gotta be it's it's gotta be hard to sign to the other song. I don't want it to be easy. We're not not doing this for we're doing it for fun, but we're not just signing anything. It's it's it's we've really all got to believe in what in what we want to achieve. I think that was probably me. It's probably having kids and probably thinking we haven't got much time, we need to the things we do, we've got to absolutely um be sure that they're the right things and from both sides, nothing worse from a from an artist's point of view, to be tied in somewhere where you don't really get division, you know. Gotta be sure, and of course things change over time, and but but if it's not set out from the beginning, it becomes really difficult. Um and I'm so I'm really I'm really pleased where we are now.

SPEAKER_01 49:53

Yeah. Um is there in a major, because obviously a lot of major labels just like throwing darts at the dartboard and hoping that one lands on the ball's eye? Yeah. Is there like a limit of how many artists can be signed to an AR? Because with you guys, you're you're being a bit more focused on smaller pool but really putting everything into it. With a major major because they have the resources to sign so many, is there a limit? Like can can a AR come in and just keep signing artists? Are they allowed to?

SPEAKER_02 50:23

I I suppose you I suppose you can. I mean, but where's the romance in that? Yeah. Where's the where's that feeling? There's not no better feeling than signing or finding something and really like really believing in it and loving the music and then falling in love with the artist. There's actually no better feeling, even if they've got it's actually better when they've got zero followers or anything going on. Um because it is just a gut thing at that point, and then seeing the little wins, there's nothing better than that. So just signing as many things as you can, regardless, is just yeah, doesn't sit right with me. Never has.

SPEAKER_00 51:01

When an artist's at that stage with like zero followers, you've obviously being an AR and now with the label, any mistakes you often see artists making that you think, I wish they weren't doing that all the time because I could have signed them, or is there is there anything there that you anything frequent?

SPEAKER_02 51:20

I think mistakes lead to growth. So I think actually art artists doing more, testing more. Yeah, so don't be afraid to Don't be afraid to put stuff out. To to to someone said to me the other day, oh I wouldn't have put this artist on this show because they've already done a headline show a few weeks ago and this is a smaller one. And I thought, that's so old school. It's like the artists can do what they want. Like if the artist wants to try out new material in a smaller venue, nothing has to follow rules these days. Just because an artist played a smaller show to the one they did two months ago to try out new stuff doesn't mean they're any worse off in their career. In fact, they'll learn something tonight, they'll play a song that connects and then they'll play it at their biggest show in a few months' time. There is a fear, and I think we all have it, of holding things back because we're not sure about what people are going to think. And I think failing is growth. And so an artist putting a song out that is a different sound, is a and and it not working for whatever reason, or not getting is a is a good thing because you learn and you pivot.

SPEAKER_00 52:27

Um So you're saying actually you wouldn't damage you don't feel like there's any kind of damage there with fan base audience, because that I think that's their biggest fear is kind of fans turning off, for example.

Closing And Where To Find Us

SPEAKER_02 52:37

I think I think you'll reach new audiences all the time. Um is an unlimited world out there now. Um and so artists often say to me, Well, why would I post the same song five times? Everyone's gonna get so bored. And you're like, Well, hardly anyone's seen it, and the algorithms work in a way that it it shows it to new people every time. So I wouldn't be worried about it. Um uh I think artists should try to try new things, don't be afraid of trying new things. That's the biggest thing holding artists back, is not putting themselves out there. All the best artists there's ever been have always had to take that that leap at some point. It's just the modern way of doing that is probably by doing it more and you've got to do it more frequently. Um and so yeah, I'd say that was the biggest mistake people make is not getting yourself out there enough. You've got to get yourself out there. Someone will notice you, it will lead to something else, and you'll meet someone who'll introduce you to someone, or you'll you'll you'll hit an algorithm by chance and it will change your life. Like, you just gotta put yourself out there. The biggest mistake is doing nothing.

SPEAKER_01 53:47

Good place to end it.

SPEAKER_02 53:48

Yeah, I'm hoping Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:50

Yeah. If you enjoyed the podcast, give it a like. Leave a review. You can do that on Spotify now, right? Yeah. Do all of that stuff. And uh, where can people find you? Instagram, Twitter, whereabouts are you?

SPEAKER_02 54:00

Uh Instagram at the Other Songs uh and at Alistair Weber.

SPEAKER_01 54:05

Cool. Well, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 54:07

Thank you very much, guys. Thanks. Cheers.