158 - Catching Up with the Dallas Hall of State

Catching Up Over Coffee and Architecture

In this episode, Jamie and Kurt return after a brief hiatus, recovering from illness. They discuss the challenges of recording live, share their recent travel experiences, and dive into a detailed discussion about the architectural significance of the 1936 Hall of State in Dallas, Texas. The conversation spans the importance of reusing historical sites, touches on the architectural impacts of global events like the Olympics and World's Fairs, and highlights the sketching process of capturing monumental buildings. They tease upcoming plans for more in-situ sketching at conferences and events.

00:00 Introduction and Greetings
00:20 Recovering from Sickness
02:17 Coffee Talk
04:42 Vacation Stories: Savannah and Hilton Head
06:04 Architectural Insights: Savannah's Grid and Bed & Breakfast
13:19 Sketching and the Hall of State
22:25 Olympics and Architectural Reuse
28:22 Conclusion and Future Plans

Transcript

Kurt Neiswender: 0:32

Jamie.

Jamie Crawley: 0:33

Hey, challenge accepted.

Kurt Neiswender: 0:36

Welcome to the show. Yes.

Jamie Crawley: 0:39

I know that I would be like, very,

Kurt Neiswender: 0:43

it'll be your show.

Jamie Crawley: 0:45

Yeah.

Kurt Neiswender: 0:46

I got that wrong, but we're live. So I can't edit it out now.

Jamie Crawley: 0:50

No, no, no.

Kurt Neiswender: 0:53

Well, so for all the listeners that were wondering where we've been, I will say this, at least before we get into the formalities that it was like the sick bay on the, on the Starship Enterprise last week over here. So everyone, everyone in this house was sick from sick and tired of vacation. Kurt's got

Jamie Crawley: 1:17

that vocal fry just naturally right now.

Kurt Neiswender: 1:21

Yeah. Yeah. Unfortunately, try not to try to make too much noise with this. You know, sore throat, man. I never had a sore throat so bad in my life and it wasn't COVID. That's all I got. Apologies to you and the

Jamie Crawley: 1:41

audience. No apologies necessary. I'm just glad that you're feeling better. That's all.

Kurt Neiswender: 1:47

Thanks. I feel, I physically feel normal. I don't sound normal. I don't think. I think it's still stuck in my head.

Jamie Crawley: 1:56

Is it one of those ones where, you know, that you sound different to yourself than you normally sound?

Kurt Neiswender: 2:03

Yeah. I don't sound different to you.

Jamie Crawley: 2:06

Oh yeah. You totally sound different. Oh,

Kurt Neiswender: 2:07

okay. But some people have said no, no, no.

Jamie Crawley: 2:12

They were being really nice.

Kurt Neiswender: 2:14

Yeah, I think so. Yeah. I can hear it in my head. It's not so hollow sounding empty.

Jamie Crawley: 2:27

I'm not, I'm not down with this self deprecation the way you are, but that's okay.

Kurt Neiswender: 2:32

Well, we were down with the sickness.

Jamie Crawley: 2:34

Yeah, for

Kurt Neiswender: 2:35

sure. Last week. Well, I'm glad you're

Jamie Crawley: 2:41

back and no, it's, it's, it's time to, to resume our efforts on the coffee sketch podcast. So so you're, you're recovering self. What is in your coffee cup, my friend?

Kurt Neiswender: 2:56

Well, you know, I think that those smart people say you shouldn't drink coffee when you're sick, but they weren't us. So, so I actually, so given we were on vacation, then got home was sick. I had to go dip into our reserves of Coffee Sketch Coffee and tax my one bag, one personal item, you know, so I'm drinking our coffee.

Jamie Crawley: 3:28

It's like tithings to the podcast. So yes. Yeah,

Kurt Neiswender: 3:34

I was like, I ran out and I was like, Oh God, in the morning, you know, you don't want to run out of coffee in the morning. No, worst feeling in the world. And I was like, okay, I'm gonna have to do it. Yeah. Go downstairs and chip away at our profits, you know, you know, so anyway, how, how about you? It's, it's fantastic. I brought props. Oh,

Jamie Crawley: 4:05

so you've been, you've been Eyeing some of my little city props of late. So I figured I would, you can see how small this bag is slowly getting. So this is, this is the tail end, but yeah, kind of, kind of fun. A little bit of different notes. Definitely the, the toffee does change it a little bit. So

Kurt Neiswender: 4:26

yeah,

Jamie Crawley: 4:28

it's a Chirangi and where is this from? Oh, it's Kenyan. But it's, it's, it's really more kind of a I find it to be a little bit more of a, a darker roast than they're saying it is, but the toffee does give it kind of an interesting flavor.

Kurt Neiswender: 4:43

Sounds good. I like that. I like, I like all the things you just said. You're like, Oh, the tasting notes are like,

Jamie Crawley: 4:53

can I go to the store now? So, yeah.

Kurt Neiswender: 4:55

Although we don't, well, I can't get little city up here. So, you know, I

Jamie Crawley: 4:59

know, I know it needs care packages. I hear you. I

Kurt Neiswender: 5:02

can get Tim Horton's.

Jamie Crawley: 5:03

Like from, from a Tim Hortons even.

Kurt Neiswender: 5:09

Yeah. And in the store, if I wanted to actually get Tim Hortons coffee or Dunkin Donuts. So have you ever been to a Hilton Head Island? No. Oh, interesting. We, well, maybe we'd talk about it later, but. Oh, tell me about it. This is the Savannah.

Jamie Crawley: 5:28

I've not even been to Savannah.

Kurt Neiswender: 5:30

Really?

Jamie Crawley: 5:31

Driven through like when I was a little kid I, I do not remember it on the list of East Coast sites to see.

Kurt Neiswender: 5:44

I would, I would definitely put more emphasis on Savannah than Hilton Head Island. So, so here, so from an architect standpoint, right. And I won't, I'm not trying to be too critical. So Danielle and I flew into the Savannah slash Hilton Head airport. It's like halfway between both of them. The first night we, we drove down to Savannah and stayed in a bed and breakfast, not an Airbnb, but a traditional bed and breakfast with, yeah, they did talk a lot about ghosts. There's a very old house. Historic. It was a historically.

Jamie Crawley: 6:25

See, I didn't even have to. I didn't even need the prompt.

Kurt Neiswender: 6:28

So here's the cool part. I forgot to, I totally forgot about this until you pushed me to tell the story of the vacation. But so Savannah is a beautiful city. It's, it's the, the, the grid, the street grid format, you know, it's very rigorous. It's very organized. It was intentional. I think a military settlement, so it's very ordered. And then, as they developed it into more of a residential or you know, moved away from the military sort of encampment the, the landowners, you know, would buy, they would, there's very size lots, you know, depending on north, south, east, west. Or let's say the north south axes versus the east west axes in the grid created some very interesting lot shapes. You know, some are a little, some are bigger, some are thinner. And so the big ones became the more wealthy families because they basically had the end of the block in a lot of cases and they were adjacent to the parks. So every, every, I don't know, say six blocks, they took a block. And just made it a park in the grid. So it's super, like if you were a planner and an architect, you know, drawing the site plan of Savannah, you know, it'd be. It would be very rewarding because it's very rigorous. It's a, it's a, it's a clean grid. Whereas, you know, many cities like sort of, if I were

Jamie Crawley: 8:00

an architect,

Kurt Neiswender: 8:00

yes. Well, Detroit, Detroit had like the, the law and font, you know, style plan, and then they devolved almost immediately. So like, there's the whole concept is like lost, right. As it developed over anyway. So Savannah's maintained its rigor. And so the, the bed and breakfast owner. Nino and his husband, Nino has a PhD in architecture from Italy, did a postdoc in MIT in Boston. And then

Jamie Crawley: 8:38

settled in Savannah.

Kurt Neiswender: 8:40

And then gave up architecture, opened a restaurant in Boston and then moved down the Savannah and opened a bed and breakfast. Well, we got to, we got to talking quite a long time because of course we're both architects. Had a lot of his PhD Now get this, his PhD was on Carlos Scarpa? No, no. He's from Sicily, so Oh, okay. He's from the south. The so I, but go ahead. He is deep energy retrofits in historic buildings, so he knew what he was doing when he bought this old house, and he's like fixing up little pieces here and there. And, and energy retrofitting. It was really, it was really fascinating. It was a lot of fun to sort of, and Daniel set up the whole thing. So like she didn't know he was an architect.

Jamie Crawley: 9:33

She didn't know about Nino and his past.

Kurt Neiswender: 9:36

No,

Jamie Crawley: 9:38

she lucked. She, she just, you know, You know, she lucked into it. That's great.

Kurt Neiswender: 9:44

Yeah, and, and we all, we all win.

Jamie Crawley: 9:49

So, so, so did you like in, in preparatory travel, you know, some people will like get music playlists together or like movies or read a book. Did you like go, Oh, we're going to Savannah. We need to watch. Like Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil, or read the book.

Kurt Neiswender: 10:10

Forrest Gump.

Jamie Crawley: 10:12

Did any of this, did any of these things happen?

Kurt Neiswender: 10:15

No, Danielle was reading. I I actually didn't pack like hardly anything except shorts and t shirts. And a sketchbook. And a sketchbook. And Danielle wants to be at home. Cause Ellie's, Ellie's barking. Oh yeah. So, you know, ruining, ruining the, ruining the audio. You know, classic, classic dog. I did see on display in the airport midnight, but in the, in the garden of good and evil, which was funny. And and then, yeah, everybody pointed out, Oh yeah, you know, the bench that Forrest Gump sat on is over in this park. And we didn't go past the cemetery. So we only spent one night in Savannah and then got, got up, ate lunch, you know, break brunch, I guess, and then went to, uh, Hilton head Island where Charlie and his family came up from Orlando cause his wife was, you Doing a conference. So they drove up from Orlando and met us in Hilton head. And then we spent the rest of the time there. And Hilton head is nice. It's, it's very quirky. Because it's, so it's, it's an Island has a ring road. And their zoning requires that no building is up at the street. So every building is like set back behind a row of trees and everything is like beige, Like every beige or gray.

Jamie Crawley: 11:46

Everything's beige to on, to, it's the toe on toe. I, that's what I, it is toe on to.

Kurt Neiswender: 11:52

Yep. It's required. And, sure. Like blend away, but then it just feels like it's just a island with a road on because it's, that's all you see. And it's, it's not very, it just makes it less pedestrian friendly because it's just about, you know, the buildings are there, but they're set back. And then it's like, there's a bike path slash walking path. And then the road, which is, you know, if you were just walking, which we did a little of. It's kind of drab. It's topey.

Jamie Crawley: 12:34

Well, I mean, hopefully, hopefully the, hopefully the weather was good. I mean, that's where you go to the islands and stuff. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Kurt Neiswender: 12:40

The beach was nice and the food was good, you know, and the buildings were all the same

Jamie Crawley: 12:46

and hung out with the fam. So that's good.

Kurt Neiswender: 12:49

And it was a family, family thing, you know,

Jamie Crawley: 12:51

so. And hopefully you and your twin have come to a resolution on our music. So.

Kurt Neiswender: 13:01

More research. Well, more, yeah, more Work to be done on, on Charlie's, Charlie's a plate, but yeah. Yeah. We talked about a little bit good in between defusing children. He's got a handful right now for this two kids, but I think it'll pass. So I was, I'm glad, I'm glad you didn't get sick whilst I was away.

Jamie Crawley: 13:37

No, no, I, I was, I'm just been trucking along with the, work and work and more work. So yeah. And, and maybe a sketch or two, which, you know, we, I think, I think that's maybe why we're here today. So catching up and then transition to those sketches.

Kurt Neiswender: 13:57

Yeah. Well, is that, is that the cue? Is that what you're trying to hint at? Oh, look at that. I had this whole thing set up the wrong way now. Oh,

Jamie Crawley: 14:11

there. Okay. Yeah.

Kurt Neiswender: 14:13

Buttons. It's all those buttons, folks. Can you believe that? All that, all that effort, and then I click the, you know, the screen share? Of course. Anyway, we've got it sorted out now. So, you know, I don't know anything about this building and that's, that's the fun part. And then Jamie, it's like the old, it's

Jamie Crawley: 14:35

like the old school days where, you know, we just sort of, you know, Kurt goes through the sketches of, of late and says, Hmm, let me cure, let me curate one for today's chat.

Kurt Neiswender: 14:46

Let's try that one. So I did say when we pick this and this'll be the fictitious reading of it, Is that for us architects who've read, well, not just architects, but people who've read the Fountainhead by Ayn Rand, you know, the main character being hard work, the, the the avant garde architect there's lots of, probably superlatives that he gets given that it is a textbook a novel, you know, there's not a lot, there's no artwork in it. And so. I had to use my, my imagination when reading the book and this sketch reminds me of some of the structures that Howard Rourke and Keating were like, you know, competing against each other and designing and creating these sort of monumental semi, you know, Concrete brutalist styled, you know, aggressive buildings, things like, so this building has that, that sort of sensibility to it. That is like could be an Ayn Rand or fit into the Fountainhead as, as the Ayn Rand book. But of course it's, it's actually based. On a real building, not a fictitious building by a fictitious architect.

Jamie Crawley: 16:07

Well, I mean, but if you, if you think about, you know, when Ayn Rand publishes the Fountainhead, so, you know, 43 this, this building is kind of a contemporary of that. So this sketch happens to be 1936 Hall of State in Dallas, Texas designed for The World's Fair that was in Dallas one of two World's Fairs in the state of Texas. You know, there was one later in the 60s in San Antonio, but you know, the Fair Park, which people think of now as kind of side of the Cotton Bowl, side of the State Fair is actually where the World's Fair site was in Dallas so east of downtown but it is arguably the largest collection of Art Deco buildings in North America.

Kurt Neiswender: 16:57

Well, what was the year of the fair?

Jamie Crawley: 17:02

36. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And so this, this particular build and, and a lot of them have gone through restorations some, you know, actually fairly recently you know here in the 21st century. But, yeah, it's, you know, 1936 Texas hosts the World's Fair as the centennial of the re to commemorate the Republic of Texas. So yeah, you know that place. Yeah. Texas has got, you know, Texas has got its things. And, and that's certainly you know, one of those kinds of time periods and dates and things like that. That's, that's super important. But the building does have that kind of an ran fountainhead rur. Kind of monumentality, at least you know, to it. And so when you kind of leaned in and kind of gave me your quick analysis and sort of reaction to the sketch, I think it's, it's very apt in this particular case, especially with the, the, the way that I've sort of tried to capture it even

Kurt Neiswender: 18:03

right. Yeah. So it's, it's not just the building, but it's the way the sketch. portrays the building and the style, styling that you put into the sketch kind of even makes it more. Emote a motive of the the hand ran stuff, the fountainhead style. Yeah.

Jamie Crawley: 18:21

Well, and, and, and what I was telling you, you know, when you, you mentioned that, you know, this was the one that you wanted to talk about today. You know, I, I sort of set it as an aside, but you know, this is you know, this is one of those ones where I'm actually, you know, forcing myself to be in situ. So on site. Actually trying to do the sketch. And so, you know, some of the proportion, the proportions are definitely correct. The angle was definitely deliberate. And then the details, it's just like, it's that whole Texas heat, you know, and kind of walking around outside you, you know, you, you draw until you're like, okay, I'm feeling a little faint and yeah, it's like, it's time to stop. No. So, I mean, I, as I've said on the show before, I try and keep my sketches to about. In this kind of a format, you know, to, you know, 10, 15 minutes tops and, you know, this is, it's sort of a, an iconic view of the entry you know, and part of the Plaza to the, to the hall of state but fair park, you know, as a, as a place to kind of wander around and sort of check out really iconic architecture of which you maybe not wouldn't necessarily associate with Dallas or, you know, especially with that time period. It's, it's, it's pretty great. And then because it's sort of off season in a sense, it's not the state fair. State fair is in September. It's, you know, and there wasn't events going on. It was just, I decided to kind of drive down to downtown and to deep Ellum and then into, into fair park. You know, just to kind of wander around a little bit. This was, this was, you know, this was kind of fun.

Kurt Neiswender: 19:55

Well, Well, the other thing is Scott, the, so who, who was the, do you remember the architect then of this building?

Jamie Crawley: 20:02

No, I wish I did. Yeah, I mean, I, I can look it up while we're, while we're chit chatting but yeah, the architect is,

Kurt Neiswender: 20:11

Ooh, yeah. It kind of reminds me too, of a little bit of, I mean, a scaled down version of, of like the entry to Rockefeller center to New York.

Jamie Crawley: 20:21

Hmm.

Kurt Neiswender: 20:22

Interesting. I mean, massing wise, I mean, massing wise for sure. Yeah.

Jamie Crawley: 20:26

Yeah. This is Donald Barthelomy. You know, Jamie with the pronunciations. It's terrible. I totally butchered that. I know I did. Most

Kurt Neiswender: 20:36

likely he is no

Jamie Crawley: 20:37

longer around. Oh, I don't think he's with us anymore. But you know, I think that it's you know, the, the thing and the thing about it, and then, you know, it's very, and that's where some of the details in the sketch sort of, You know, are you really have to lean in to kind of see them, but you can see these sort of lantern like elements on these plinths out in the front of the plaza. And those are metal and kind of bronzed. So you're, you get these sort of lantern like kind of features, very art deco also sort of, you know, tall and cylindrical with that sort of ornate Kind of, you know, reveal in it and then you can look to you know, there's sort of some statuary and then some, some freeze details that really are suggestive of that same time period. There's other buildings in fair park that have some amazing murals. So you think sort of works progress administration, 1930s you know, kind of almost a little bit of a constructivist. Kind of agenda, you know, to, to some of the work, but that's sort of the, you know, that international style art deco art modern kind of all kind of happening around the same time, those influences but here, you know, the, the, the architecture, as I said, has been restored to a large degree, you know pretty painstakingly by some really talented, you know, firms both architects, as well as, as contractors And, and is used it's you know, that was my

Kurt Neiswender: 22:02

next

Jamie Crawley: 22:02

question is what is

Kurt Neiswender: 22:04

it being used for now?

Jamie Crawley: 22:06

Well, I mean, it's, it's, you know, it, it has a sort of a hall of state, so it has a lot of statuary and relics kind of, you know, kind of museum museum kind of quality kind of stuff on the inside, but then has some really expansive spaces that you can have events in these spaces. In this 1 in particular and then some of the other buildings you know, that were pavilions are used for varying purposes. And then during the state fair, all this areas, you know, completely activated and you know, and, you know, used by thousands of people.

Kurt Neiswender: 22:37

The, well, that's, you know, that's just a good, good to know thing as, as far as the age of this site, you know, a hundred years old, almost, well, not quite, but 90 years old in, in lieu or not in lieu in light of what's going on right now, the Olympics, right? The conversation architecturally often goes circles around to the, The functionality of the buildings after the Olympic games. And, and I think this year they they, they're very much ahead of the question in answering you know, the strategy for say D demounting or decommissioning certain structures or, you know, for the games themselves. They, they only. They reused an existing building in a couple of cases, I think. So

Jamie Crawley: 23:36

I,

Kurt Neiswender: 23:36

I appreciate

Jamie Crawley: 23:37

that aspect. What's that? Well, I, I think, you know, you bring up a really interesting kind of architectural point, you know, to, you know, it's, if you think about what the Olympics do, what world's fairs do for you know, these kinds of world expositions, you know there's a, a real, Opportunity for kind of a global conversation about art and architecture you know, against the backdrop in, in case of the Olympics against the backdrop of sport. And so but at the same time, it speaks to exactly what you're talking about is, you know, how do these sites get reused? And, you know, whether they're decommissioned or the buildings are repurposed and there's a lot of criticism, you know year after year of, of the failings of a lot of these sites, you know, as, as, as they move around the world, but then at the same time, there's also these success stories, right? There's these kind of opportunities where it has been successful, unfortunately, probably less so, you know, than, than, you know, if we were keeping score, you know, the scorecards probably not right. The scorecards were probably not really good.

Kurt Neiswender: 24:44

It's still tipped the other way. Tipped the other

Jamie Crawley: 24:46

way. But I think what you, what you bring up is sort of an interesting point. And it's nice to even hear in the broadcast that I've listened to. I mean, I love, I love sports. I mean, you know that we've, you know, I know you do too. Yeah. And the Olympics is sort of you know, it's that one time, you know, every four years where you get this opportunity to kind of, you know, dip into a lot of different sports, you know, kind of all, you know, through one lens and and for those who, you know, kind of love You know, kind of global culture and, you know, and competition and you know, just, you know, the, the joy of sports, the joy that sports can bring it, it, it really is a fun time of year, but. Even in all those broadcasters, I've heard it multiple times where, where they've talked about the events and the locations and how how Paris has really tried to you know, treat the, treat the sites and the venues in a very, very different way strategically. You know, both from the opening ceremony that when they, they went down the Senn. You know, with the athletes they had a, you know, a, a free Walker doing his whole thing on the roofs and stuff. And I mean, I think the weather wasn't exactly what they planned for opening ceremony, but, but then the, but then the venues themselves for the events, I think what I heard and we may, this is a fact check moment, but I think they only said they only, they only built one new venue, one, one completely new venue, like ground up for the whole thing. Everything else was either existing, existing sites or reaper repurposing or adapting existing buildings or existing sites.

Kurt Neiswender: 26:24

Oh yeah. Good. So I was even, I was probably even less generous and I think I said all, all lots, lots more new, but yeah, yeah, I think that's a good example. I'm hopeful that, you know, after the afterward is like kind of the, the real test, the data when you shake it all out and like, you know, but it seems like they have, yeah. they have set themselves up for more of that successful or, you know, they have a strategy to, to, to manage it afterward too. So,

Jamie Crawley: 27:01

well, and, and, and I was going to say, it's like with the, you know, even with the sketch, bringing it back to the sketch for a moment is that it's like me just kind of walking around this site. I mean, you can feel the history, you know, of it, even when it's empty. And you have these sort of, Iconic vantage points where it's, it's very easy to kind of sit or stand and say, yeah, this is, this is my cone of vision. This is what I want to capture in this moment. In this particular day, you know, there's, you can see by the sort of the, the intense cross hatch in some spots, how. The sun, it's Texas sun. I mean, we're still like in the depths of our, you know, I mean, it was 102 today. So second,

Kurt Neiswender: 27:41

second summer. Yeah.

Jamie Crawley: 27:43

It's our second or third summer, second wave, third wave. But you can, you can, you can, yeah, you can, I mean, you can see kind of the intensity, you know, of that cross has just to kind of, you know, make you both appreciate sort of the. The simpleness of the forms themselves, but at the same time, sort of the, the way light is being cast across those objects you know, to create that depth you know, and kind of monumentality. I think that's the beauty of these kinds of buildings is that there's, you know, if you look at it, even in the colonnade that's sort of created there. It's very, very simple lines just to kind of get the proportions right, but then the effect of that depth and that monumentality is created by the cross hatch and the shade and shadow. It's not, it's not about some other detail or some of the line.

Kurt Neiswender: 28:36

Yeah, yeah, that's a good example, especially for students just getting. Yeah, draw the light, right? It's sort of a, a term we've probably heard or draw, you know, draw the shadow, which means draw the shadows. Right, right, right. But yeah, that was very cool. I think, I think we could probably wrap it up for the day.

Jamie Crawley: 28:59

Yeah, this is sort of the quick travel sketch folks. I mean, you know, you know, it's not even far from home, but you know, I think that, I don't do in situ as much as I'd like, but I'm glad I was kind of able to do it in this particular case. And glad we got the chance to chat about it.

Kurt Neiswender: 29:14

Yeah, there's a sneak sneak preview. Jamie didn't even hear about this yet. We got a, he and I have to sit down and talk about sketching in situ more with conferences and things like that. So. Anyway, cryptic. Yeah. Coffee sketch

Jamie Crawley: 29:33

podcast coming to a city near you. Right? Right. Exactly. Could be Austin. Oh, could it be? Could be. Could be. That could be fun.

Kurt Neiswender: 29:43

All right. Well, give me, give me one sec, Jamie. I got to get the the old outro ready. The old one. Yes. The old outro. Yes.