Coffee Sketch Podcast
Coffee Sketch Podcast
165 - Sketches, Coffee, and Career Journeys wsg Brad Benjamin and Ben Ward
Architectural Conversations: Sketches, Coffee, and Career Journeys
In this episode, hosts Jamie and Kurt engage with guests Brad Benjamin and Ben Ward, two architects and longtime friends from Greenville, South Carolina. The conversation meanders through the joys of incorporating guests into their podcast, the importance of sketching in the architectural process, and the career paths that led Brad and Ben to co-found Radium Architecture. They touch upon the influence of professional societies like the AIA, memorable conferences, and architectural practices. The dialogue covers everything from personal sketching habits to favorite pens, providing an insightful and intimate look into the architectural profession.
00:00 Welcome and Guest Introductions
02:12 Architectural Backgrounds and Experiences
04:54 Coffee Conversations
21:38 Pop Culture and Architecture
34:35 Starting and Running a Small Firm
49:44 The Gift of Gab and Coffee Talk
50:13 Architectural Team and Regional Work
52:08 Partnership Beginnings and Fun at Work
53:39 Professional Networks and Career Growth
59:58 Sketching and Architectural Landmarks
01:06:03 The Value of Sketching in Architecture
01:24:00 Pen Recommendations and Final Thoughts
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Hey guys. As I said, multiples, not just Jamie, we've got guests again, getting good at this guest thing. This is
Jamie:like the gift that keeps on giving for us. Like this season, like we're just, you know, we're just bringing folks, you know, the joy of conversation with us.
Kurt Neiswender:Oh, so that's not the angle I was going at. So we had,
Jamie:sorry, I went in a different direction.
Kurt Neiswender:So, so. I'll, I'll briefly introduce our guests and then we can let them expand upon their, their their enjoyment, their, their, their value add to the, to the podcast. Do I
Jamie:dare say that this is episode 166?
Kurt Neiswender:We can say that. I mean, in, in the sequence of things, it will most likely be 166 of the total. And so that, you know, for the,
Jamie:we are shooting for 167 to end 2024.
Kurt Neiswender:Yeah. So there will be one more if, if these guys allow it. So we have Brad Benjamin and Ben Ward with us. In no particular order, but two good friends, great friends, dare I say, and also architects, old friends, but not
Jamie:an age, just old friends.
Kurt Neiswender:So, but also from the same locale as we you know, we had, we just did a weather check for our, our podcast in the green room. So, so, so Brad, Ben, which, you know, whoever wants to tell us, you know, point at the map, the weather map, what I got, I got a quick question for you
Jamie:guys. So. So, like, you know, I'm in Austin, Kurt's in Flint. You guys are on the East coast in the same city. How, how physically close are you?
Ben:Oh, we're probably four miles apart.
Jamie:Okay. Yeah. Awesome. I don't know why that, why that fascinated me for the moment, but just it did. So, so with that, please, please without further ado please introduce yourselves.
Brad:Well, I'm Brad Benjamin. I'm well from Greenville, South Carolina started a small firm. It's almost 13 years ago, radium architecture. We do a variety of projects higher education, healthcare some retail. We've done some interesting projects. We've done some breweries. We've done recently we did a dry lab that produces lithium batteries. It had to be 2 percent humidity. I don't know if you guys ever experienced 2 percent humidity is very hard to get to. Yes, the whole, the whole, the whole 9 yards. So we, we've, we've done a variety of projects over the years.
Kurt Neiswender:That's
Brad:cool.
Jamie:Kurt just had like, I'm sure we'll unpack that moment right there where you were just like, cool.
Kurt Neiswender:Well, you know, when, you know, I live in the most north, not to interrupt you, Ben, but I'm in the most north of all of us, and in the wintertime, we do get static because of the low moisture. We don't get 2%. It gets pretty low, but I don't know if we get 2 percent that low humidity in, in Michigan, but In the wintertime, at least, but yeah, anyway, yeah, I I'm familiar with static there, Jimmy. So how about you, Ben?
Ben:I am Ben Ward. I originally from Fort Mill, South Carolina, now in Greenville went over and joined Brad this year at Radium. My general background has been healthcare architecture for past, I don't know, 13 years now. Done all variety of things every, you know, from, from as, as healthcare goes, you go from a single room renovation all the way up to, you know, full scale hospital. So I've kind of done the full gamut.
Kurt Neiswender:Yeah. I, you know, I used to do a little healthcare at the firm I used to work at. We, well, my experience has mostly been in like some assisted living and dialysis clinics. I don't know if you guys have ever dabbled in dialysis. And a little medical office, but medical offices really like be business use, you know, for those that read the code book. So dialysis was tricky. You know, it's interesting. It's very particular. So anyway, that's what I have
Jamie:at the beginning of my career doing a little bit of healthcare work. So definitely like the whole generalist thing. So you know, medical city in Dallas, like the hospital, crazy complex and ambulatory surgery centers and operating rooms and you know, all the office buildings Kurt's talking about. Yeah. So architecture, big A, big A architecture.
Kurt Neiswender:Yeah. Well, we'll, we were planning on talking a little bit about small firm stuff later, right. Before, after we, we've got to talk about coffee first. That's the format guys. So we'll, cause there actually have some questions about healthcare and, and small firm stuff. So we'll, we'll, we'll definitely circle back to that, but we should probably talk about coffee, Jamie. And so we got to let the guests go first because otherwise it'd be very rude. Okay. And so how about we'll start with Ben since he's, he's got a nice mug.
Ben:I do have a nice mug. This is actually my Nespresso Advent Calendar mug. Today's was actually a peanut toasted sesame, which I am not a coffee flavor guy. So that was the first two rating I gave on a one to ten scale. I gotta show you, like, this is the box That the advent calendar comes in so you kind of open it up and you can see you've got each day. It is, it is gorgeously designed. Was that a gift? I think you were
Jamie:coming with the best props, by the way. So,
Ben:yeah. A plus. Gene Embert, the chef, actually designed the the box. It's got the Bellman train on the on the box. It's always to me fascinating when, when a company takes, takes a lot of care in their graphic design and the presentation. I mean, you know, they could have done this in some, you know, cheap little dispenser, but this is like a very well made box is one of those things you're like, Oh, I hate to throw it away after, after the season's done. But
Kurt Neiswender:so, so is that a gift or is it a self gift? Like,
Ben:yeah, it was a self gift trying to be sustainable. I went to order recycling bags for my Nespresso pods. And it would not let you buy the recycling bags because they were 0 and you couldn't check out a 0 item. So I had to add something to my cart to recycle. Which is now it's a gimmick to recycle. So,
Jamie:so you just went all in, you just like, that looks pretty fantastic. I like the packaging. That's a great story. Yeah.
Kurt Neiswender:You know, I, I knew there was going to be some, something to that, you know, there's always, always, and I would have done the same thing. I'm not going to lie. Right. I would have probably picked that. I like, I like coffee as most people, most people probably figured that part out by now that I like coffee. And therefore we invite people, we only have one exception. Should we even mention the exception, Jamie? Yep. This, this individual down here, she's on the shirt. Really? Is not a coffee drinker, but we had to you know, as you, you can imagine, we, we, we definitely let that, let that one go because, you know, he
Brad:has several other redeeming qualities that make up for the, for that deficiency. She
Jamie:still got coffee as a gift because she said the household. They like coffee. She doesn't like coffee. So she took one for the team and said, I still would like your coffee at my house.
Kurt Neiswender:But, and, and a mug, right? She got a mug too. So, you know, tea, she likes tea. Evelyn likes tea. So, you know, still got to drink tea out of a mug. So, so, so what about you, Brad? Any anything?
Brad:I'm a big Starbucks guy. And I know that's either. You know, taboo, or everybody gets on the Starbucks bandwagon, but I, I really liked their coffee. I go every morning, all the baristas know my name. Not just, hey, good morning. Hi, Brad. How are you? Like, when I, right when I walk in the door. So, and I usually just get either a venti or maybe a cafe Americano sometimes. So I don't really get any fancy, but I've got to have it. I mean, it'd make, it'd make or break my day.
Jamie:So I have a question for you in this in this holiday season. I will say that, or well, let's, let's back up. Let's back up. So this, you know, this is the end of the year, right? So we have the holiday season and we have the holiday blend coffee. Yes. Opinion.
Brad:I like it because I'm, I'm, I'm usually a dark roast kind of guy. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you know, they'll only brew Pike in the afternoon. Not much on the blondes, but you know, if they've got it, it's dark roast all the way.
Jamie:But I mean, their Christmas blend is by far of their seasonal coffees, like, you know, where they're sort of brand is, is quite, is, is their best. Absolutely. I think so. I am not. Okay. Other question. Okay. I'm not even going to give it away. So pumpkin spice. Hot garbage, right? Hot garbage.
Kurt Neiswender:We're
Jamie:taking a
Kurt Neiswender:stance.
Jamie:I will. No,
Brad:I will. I will not have it at all. There you go.
Jamie:Thank you. Thank you. That's why we're friends. That's why we're friends. We,
Brad:we, yeah, we
Kurt Neiswender:actually,
Jamie:you know, I have a difference
Kurt Neiswender:of
Brad:opinion
Kurt Neiswender:though.
Jamie:Yeah, I think I saw some other cringy moments there. So,
Kurt Neiswender:yeah, we like a little, we all can agree because otherwise it would be very boring to have this
Jamie:conversation. Yeah. And usually we're not this aggressive about the coffee, by the way. So it's like, you know, I mean, there are moments like I do get a little bit aggressive and you know, about some of the coffee stuff. But generally speaking, just like the sketches, you know, We're welcoming to all opinions.
Kurt Neiswender:So I, I've had the, the, I had the, the, how do they
Jamie:call it holiday blend or do they call it Christmas blend? I think so. My dad is not a fan. He's like, it's a little bit too rich for me. They have
Brad:two different ones. They have a holiday. I don't know if it's just the bag that's different, but there's a holiday blend and a Christmas blend because, you know, you have to be,
Jamie:there is, you're wearing the holidays.
Ben:The blonde one, right? This year. It might be.
Jamie:I think that's right. I think, I think you're right.
Kurt Neiswender:Yes, I did not have that one. I had the other one in and I didn't need, you know, like, cause I don't prefer, I don't really like the blonde roasted coffees anyway either. So. I had the dark. But
Brad:the blondes do have the blonde roasted coffees do have more caffeine. I thought you were gonna say more fun. No.
Ben:Well, I don't know. More, more caffeine.
Kurt Neiswender:Well, they do. Yeah, right. They dark roasts are, are generally less caffeine. Right. But yeah, so
Jamie:so trade
Kurt Neiswender:off.
Jamie:So Kurt, what's what's the coffee of the day for you today?
Kurt Neiswender:So I went so Jamie knows that I go so around our parts here We do have a small grocer that has like the the bulk bins where you pull the lever and fill the bag And and so this this time around I went and got the darkest they have a little meter You know, the little light to dark and I got the darkest one they had, which the name was called darkest midnight, dark roast. That sounds promising. And that's good. Actually, I don't think it really, I think it could be darker. Like, so we talk a lot about rootless coffee, which is a local. A local flint roaster, and they make 1 that they just called dark, which is was was pretty dark roast. I think the 1 that I got from the bulk store wasn't quite as. It's not quite there, but it's good. No, I mean, you know,
Jamie:the other thing with the rootless is that we do like their, their brand and, and graphic presentation.
Kurt Neiswender:Yeah. Like Ben was saying, the care in packaging and design and stuff like that. Each, each of their, each of their roasts come with you know, the label is designed by a different artist and stuff like I've
Jamie:not had the dark, like I've not gotten that care package yet, but the bag is pretty amazing.
Kurt Neiswender:Oh, I gotta, I gotta get, well, I'll have to, now I'll know I have to share, now I know another Brad likes dark, so. It's like I'm just putting in the order. Ben likes dark, you know, he might get one too.
Ben:Yeah, dark isn't for, if you look down my Nespresso ratings.
Kurt Neiswender:Sounds good. So Jamie, are you drinking the podcast coffee? Is that what you're trying to allude to? Oh, look at that.
Jamie:Oh yeah. So, you know, talking about brand advertising, you know, so yeah, so we, our friends at Rootless, you know have, have made kind of, it's, it's more of a medium blend but it has sort of some really good sort of chocolate notes to it. And next
Kurt Neiswender:batch we should probably request something dark.
Jamie:Yeah. Go a little darker with it. See go
Kurt Neiswender:there.
Jamie:Yeah. Well, then we, then we need to come up with a different, like we, Kurt really loves, like, like the brand and the sketches and stuff. And so, like, in a certain way, and so we, we, we have two versions of the brand and logo. And so we went, you know, one kind of on everything. And then the one for the bag was sort of an homage to the alternate and the original, which is sort of, you know, Carlos Scarpa, Castelvecchio, You know, lean into the whole thing. So yeah, so I don't know what, okay. If, if you guys know us, since you've got two architects here and we're talking branding, we're, this is like, we're, we're whiteboarding it right now. Right. This is, you know, this is what kind of, you know, the whole thing. So shark,
Kurt Neiswender:shark tank moment.
Jamie:Yeah. Well, kinda. So like if, if, if Carlos Scarpa, Caso Vecchio is sort of our medium roast and sort of on brand for us. Like, where would you go, sketch wise, for a dark roast?
Ben:Castle Beckett, one of my
Kurt Neiswender:favorite buildings. Or building slash architect.
Jamie:Yeah, you can go building or architect, you can go off the Scarpa, even though That's a good
Kurt Neiswender:question, something we haven't talked about at all. So,
Jamie:yeah, so if we want, like, we've talked, like, so, just to, to, we have talked about how You know, like in video games, you got the boss, and then you got the final boss, and there's a bunch of intermediate bosses in there that you have to beat along the way, different levels. So we've got a whole thing with Architects that we have never shared with anybody. We've had some banter on it. That's not this episode. This episode though, is you guys can come back for that episode, but this
Kurt Neiswender:episode, we haven't
Jamie:done that episode yet. But it's going to be like, I think it might be March madness. I think we might do it in March madness, but that would be smart. If we were really thinking we would, we would really do it then. But this is like architect or architecture, dark roast. Yeah.
Ben:I go to ondo immediately. I don't think in temple of the light where it's kind of like dark when you enter, there's like this burst of flavor or the burst of light when you come on the other side and he was a boxer. Oh yes,
Kurt Neiswender:that's right. He was, I didn't know that. Yeah, it's very odd, isn't it? His, his, his, his internship was in a boxing ring. So I
Brad:would,
Kurt Neiswender:I think I would, might have to
Brad:say Aldo Rossi. Yeah, and there's, he's got quite a few good ones. I don't remember where he did a columbarium as part of a. We actually visited when I was, when I was in our European program.
Jamie:I like, I like the scope. Keep going. Keep going. Give me more. Well, you know, the whole, the whole
Ben:cemetery too. This is a very interesting link.
Jamie:The brown, brown cemetery.
Ben:We're only doing architects have done cemeteries for coffee.
Jamie:I hate, I'm good. This is good. And they're both dead.
Brad:I can't remember, but on the flip side, he did, they did a really nice an apartment complex and Berlin also, you know, and it's, it's kind of, it was, it's not one or the other. I mean, he didn't stick to one, one project type. He would, he, he spanned across several. So.
Jamie:No, that's good. I didn't think about Rossi. That's, that's good.
Kurt Neiswender:Yeah. These are fun. Yeah. And Ondo too. I think it's kind of an interesting.
Jamie:Ondo is going to be fun. Like when we get into the bracketology in March. So you guys come back for that.
Brad:I reached far for that one, but I, I liked his work a lot.
Jamie:No, that's good. We
Kurt Neiswender:don't talk about Rossi as much. of a lot of the things we've talked about. We don't talk about Rossi. So that would be a fun, fun to revisit too. So a couple of
Jamie:our listeners
Kurt Neiswender:are
Jamie:going, well,
Kurt Neiswender:that's why we're, we're here because it's an educational podcast.
Jamie:Yeah, we do that. There's, there's an educational component to all this stuff. You know, like, like, I don't know. Oh man, it just left my brain. So this is a, I just had my senior moment event. Sorry.
Kurt Neiswender:Well, while you think about that, let me, let me interject since we're still on the coffee pre, you know, pre sketch chat, I alluded in the green room. I was teasing Jamie. We, well, we were doing a little light teasing of Jamie's Canadian ness, you know, and maple syrup. So I was, I was. I was listening to what I always listen to pretty much in the car is public radio and they were interviewing the either the producer or the director of a movie called The Sticky. Has anybody heard of this? It is a movie, a fictitious movie that is based off of the great Canadian maple syrup heist. The heist. Yeah. He made a movie where there were 3000 tons of maple syrup stolen from the reserves. Jamie,
Jamie:do you understand like what I'm going to be doing at Christmas with my family? Now
Kurt Neiswender:watching this movie, I'm going to be watching that. Although, I think it's in a theater release, but in like your arthouse y. Probably not going to go.
Jamie:I will go to the arthouse, I will tell them about it, because they're not going to go. It's a
Brad:little esoteric, I'm sure.
Jamie:Probably, yeah.
Kurt Neiswender:But I, the premise, and the way the, the interview went. It sounds hilarious, actually. Like, it's very funny.
Ben:It's going to be online video for free, so there you go. Oh, it is? It is?
Jamie:Did you find it? Oh,
Ben:sweet. I did. I already found it.
Jamie:Thank you, sir. The rest of the podcast,
Ben:we'll stream it.
Jamie:You just staved my Christmas. It's
Brad:not Geofenth or Geolock, is it? You can only get it in the U. S. or Canada.
Jamie:Right, right. No, no, no. That's only for Strange Brew. Have you guys seen, have you seen Strange Brew? Please tell me you have. Oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah. Do you know what Strange Brew is? Do not.
Kurt Neiswender:I, I, I could say the name is familiar. I don't know if I've ever seen it. Curt,
Jamie:you don't, what is, how have we not talked about this? How is that?
Kurt Neiswender:I mean, you know, sometimes.
Jamie:This is one of those moments where like the mic's gonna push, push the table over.
Kurt Neiswender:Jamie's outta here.
Jamie:I'm outta here.
Kurt Neiswender:Wow. That's a, that's a. Brad, thank you. Thank
Brad:you.
Jamie:I
Brad:must have had a misspent youth like you, just watching movies all the time. So I'll do some movie quotes and people look at me like, what are you talking about?
Kurt Neiswender:My wife teases me about that. She's like, did you read any books ever?
Brad:I read a lot of movies. Only when they made a movie out of it.
Jamie:Exactly.
Brad:I
Kurt Neiswender:saw the movie.
Jamie:Oh, it's such a good film. I mean, like, you know. It's my holiday. Yeah, see, I'm setting up a whole suite of films. It's like I'm going to lean into the whole Canadian heritage. You know, so,
Kurt Neiswender:I'm going to endow myself with maple syrup. Normally this is like the green room chat. Like when, you know, now we're talking about the pop culture movie. Podcast sub podcast that we wind up having, but I do. I will have to add in. I mean, I do this more often than not lately because Jamie's heard me talk about my students, but you know, they're basically half my age. Well, less than half my age, you know. And, and I was, so we're based, you know, we're just outside of Detroit. Right. And I, I was explaining to a student the premise of RoboCop and the student was like, you mean a cyborg? And I was like, no RoboCop. And they're based in Detroit, right? You know, it's the, it's set in a futuristic Detroit. And they're like, never heard of it. And I'm like, not even the remake with Joel Kinnaman, you know, and they're like, never heard it. And I'm like, great. All for all of you. Yeah, right. Yeah. A whole, a whole letter.
Jamie:Well, and, and here's the thing too, right? If I did that
Kurt Neiswender:with multiple movies, everybody would be walking out with a naff.
Jamie:I mean, well, and the appreciation of architecture in film, I mean, it's like, like the movie doesn't have to be about an architect, but it's like, you know, I mean, set design and sort of futurism and I mean, it's all throughout history and sort of architecture theory and whatnot. And then if you, even if you just go to pop culture moments and like you said, RoboCop, so RoboCop set into futuristic Detroit. I. M. Pei's City Hall for Dallas is the backdrop for futuristic Detroit. You know, so it's like you have the seminal architect with this crazy building that a lot of Dallas sites really, really hate, you know, and, but it's, it's kind of, it's kind of an awesome building, you know, as a brutal structure. And then, and of course the set designers sort of like extrude it and make it a little bit extra, but you know, I mean, that's the whole thing is all those kinds of moments. You can, you know, then you go, you know, levious woods with 12 monkeys, you know, and all that stuff. I mean, there's, there's tons. Tons and tons. Yeah. And to know that, and to know that students today, you know, I, fortunately, I will say it's not all students, Kurt, because I have someone who works with me, Gen Z, who also has an, he's architecturally trained, but also has an appreciation for film. And so that intersection is one where I can actually go like deep cuts And, you know, that's, you know, doesn't make me feel so old.
Kurt Neiswender:Yeah. So, you know, we have, I mean, I think these are fun aspects of, even though we're not just talking about sketch. You know, they still, they still relative it's, there's relative value in the, in the movie. Like Jamie said, the pop culture tie in. It is kind of funny though, the dystopian features are always like the buildings that, people generally hate.
Jamie:Oh, I know what it was.
Kurt Neiswender:I
Jamie:almost have it. I don't have the whole thing in my brain, but I was looking at Ben and it made me think of it. So cause he's the youngest among us. I, I think I'm making assumptions. Just grow with it. Just roll with it.
Kurt Neiswender:Let's just say,
Jamie:so like I was watching, there's this, there's this young woman. I, today I realized she went to Yale. Cause she name dropped it. She looked really subtle about name dropping it, but like it was architecture. Yale, she slipped it in there. But super smart has a really kind of great way of talking about architecture in a very kind of disarming kind of way. And on a variety of different subjects. And so her, her social media presence is about talking about architecture, you know, so that it's sort of educating people but it's very conversational. And so it's, it's kind of fun to watch everyone so well happen to catch one today at lunch. And so she's going through kind of architects that you should know. And so, so she's, I think talking to her generation a little bit. And then, but it was also sort of architecture. You should know and fun facts about them that you might not know. And so again, she kind of mentions on do. I think she even mentions the boxing or maybe that was me projecting. But I don't think she talked about the boxing. I knew about the boxing, but then she gets to one of the other architects and it was like oh, I know what it was. She was talking about architects who are not, who didn't go to architecture school. And so she had like four of them. And so she gets through all four and like, none of them went to architecture school. And, you know, and it was, it was one of these moments where like, I'm sitting there going, you know, yeah, there's this generation of people who are in school, like that Kurt's teaching, who, I don't know what kind of architecture history class they're going through. Cause it's like, they're, they're missing out on like oodles and oodles of architects and connecting it to, you know, pretty seminal works that, you know, You know, should be things that, you know, you can pop off and go, Oh, that reminds me of this project by so and so. And you know, there's this piece and there's this element of it and that's what you're working on. And I think that's the thing that I find when I jump into reviews now that it's not so much like that you're trying to educate anybody, but you're trying to have a dialogue with them and you're trying to do it through art or architecture as sort of reference points. And so if people aren't visiting these things and traveling or not being exposed to them, sort of, and a breadth of exposure. Like I talked to somebody recently, you know, that I work with and I said, I was, I realized that sort of South American architecture was like this complete blind spot in my undergraduate education. And so the minute we had somebody. Who had that expertise in school, like teaching us. I was like, I'm taking that class because like, that's a whole part of the world that I didn't necessarily know. And I feel very fortunate to kind of have that and have those kinds of conversations and sort of recognize that blind spot. And, In hearing this person talk about it to their audience, it sort of made me think, wow, we just need to keep having these conversations about things that we'd like like brad Mentioning rossi. I'd kind of forgotten about him. Honestly, you know and it's like and I feel bad, you know You know,
Brad:it's yeah along those lines I remember, you know in school Undergraduate 30 years ago, you know, we had library And your exposure was limited to whatever they had really had in the library, either with books or with, with what was published in magazines, but now with the Internet, I mean, that's broken wide open, like, you know, you're not, you're not kind of funnel down on limited to what has actually been published. There's a whole just plethora of information and, and sources you can pull from because your, your, your images are virtually unlimited, right? Or, or you, you go on Google Earth and go in to look at something it's just a whole new world. And like I said, there's no reason why anybody should be limited to a certain viewpoint now if they have the world at your fingertips. I mean, it's, it's a game changer.
Jamie:But, but I will, but I will say though, is that one critique of that is as much as there's a beauty in, in having the world at your fingertips, which I love, love, love, love. But is also understanding context. And sort of, you know, and sort of, and sort of realizing that, you know, when you're going to exemplars and you're looking at precedent for a particular building type that you may be working on and you're, you know, you know, only doing a Google search and you're letting, you know, that, you know, search criteria. you know, generate your top three or five things that it thinks you need to go look at. You know, you're, you're not necessarily doing that deep dive. And you know, though those things might be good things to look at, if you don't do that and look at context then you yourself aren't becoming that architecture critic. You know, you're not being able to look critic, not critic, like Critic. Like I write in a magazine magazine, gosh, I'm old. But like, you know, you know, but it's, you know, critiquing it, being able to think critically about it, being able to take that project in Norway and that project in Boston and look at them because they're both the same building type and kind of understand the rationale between certain decisions that are being made and then applying it. Obviously not plagiarizing it or something like that, but kind of applying it and being inspired by it for your own work. You know, that's, that's that sort of critical, critical thinking that, you know, to me, you know, is when someone's bringing their A game.
Brad:You
Jamie:know,
Brad:and for me, that's, that's what the guiding hand of the professor does, you know, not just at a pinup, but, you know, at a desk crit, talk about those things. If you only brought those three Google images, you know, a student did. And that professor goes, hey, listen, and just goes into what you just said. We need to, we need to look deeper than this. Where does this take you? And to me, that's a great role of the professor is to just nurture and Sherpa that student to be to look differently. Look. At more than just what's been presented to them and get them to. Be inspired to do that deep dive.
Jamie:I have an image of now Kurt on like leading people up the Himalayas.
Kurt Neiswender:Well, it is winter time pretty much here in Michigan. Yeah, so next semester will still be winter. But the no, actually, you know, one, I'll just toss in a little anecdote. Cause it takes, I mean, when you teach a lot of people, there's, there are some that, that, that Sort of get it and engage. Then there's some that get it, but are a little, you know, maybe not as passionate and then there's some that don't, you know, don't really aren't, aren't passionate, aren't really sort of hooked in. But I was, I was trying to do the pop cult, like again, with a different group, but we weren't talking about RoboCop anymore. We were talking about certain TV shows and one student brought up severance. I don't know if you guys watch severance on apple tv.
Brad:Good things. It's in the queue. Hadn't gotten there yet. Yeah,
Kurt Neiswender:it's great. So the second season is coming out. And so my student brought it up and I was like, yeah, The office building is bell laboratories by Eero Saarinen and they were like, yeah, I love that building. And I was like, yeah, Yeah. Eero Saarinen, our Michigan hero, you know, like, you know, and that's Bell Lab. And you got to go, you know, look up that building, Google it. Cause I mean, look at the campus and all that, you know, look at how, like Jamie was talking about context and, you know, the setting and things like that. And then, and then, but they were, they were starting to connect with like, Oh, okay. I saw it on the show. I think it's really cool. It really like. Staged, you know, made a nice backdrop for the premise of the TV show. And, and those moments are kind of the, those are the better moments when, when people start clicking, you know, they click and think about those sorts of things and you can tie in something a little bit tangential like TV or film or whatever, you know, so it's not always just about. A building or a book about architects and things like that, but it's something that they can kind of. Kind of relate to from another, like, another perspective or another. So
Jamie:I was going to, I was going to add along those lines. So I was going to ask you guys as sort of small firm and I say, guys, like, so this is those, that moment in the show folks where like normally cure Kurt is the curator of things and sort of leading the discussion, but I'm going to, I'm going to put the curator hat on and sort of moderate this little talk a little bit. Because I think the three of you guys have sort of, it's an interesting perspectives about you know, being a small firm practitioner and, you know, you know, foundationally where that sort of starts and sort of that entrepreneurial aspect of things. But I think there's also sort of a natural connection because of all also how we all know each other from a leadership perspective. So can you, I mean, so Brad, can you talk, I know, you know, Ben is working with you now, but, you know, from your perspective, can you talk a little bit about the genesis of, of your firm and kind of that, you know, it's like the origin story, you know, it's like the superhero moment, you know, can, can you talk a little bit about the origin story for, for your practice and kind of what led you to it? And, you know Those kinds of decisions.
Kurt Neiswender:Yeah.
Jamie:So,
Brad:I guess not to do too much of a deep dive into it. I just really wasn't satisfied at my previous firm. I didn't feel like I was being used to my best ability. I wasn't being challenged. I wasn't getting the types of assignments that I wanted. It was just sort of, I was just sort of parked and I felt like if, if I stayed, I wouldn't end up in the place in my career that I wanted, you know, sort of begin with the end in mind. I knew I wasn't on a path to achieve, be able to achieve the things that I wanted. And so it just became pretty obvious 1 day and I came home that day and I said, I'm done. It's just not, it's just not going to work, work out. And with my wife being an architect as well. She understood. She was in the leadership of the other, other firm, knew the kind of position that I was in and the frustration I was having and knew that it wasn't going to, she knew long before me that it wasn't going to work out. I just had to be the one to figure out. It wasn't going to work out because I always was just like, no, no, no. I'm just being, I'm just being upset. I'm just, I'm, I'm looking too deep into it. But my instinct was right. It wasn't going to work out. So I took about six months off. Just so I could cool down a little bit and purge all of that negative energy out and we were at a Christmas party and another senior architect here in town who had started his own firm and actually transitioned out of it said you know, what's what's your plans for the future? I said, I don't really know right now. I'm still taking some time to figure it out. And he said, You need to take this opportunity to start your own firm. I said, that is the dumbest, dumb idea that I've ever heard in my life. And he said, no, no, no. I said, listen to me, give it five years. If you don't, if it, if it fails, so what? Go back to working for somebody. It's not the worst thing in the world. He said, but you were at a point in your career and you have some things going for you that not a lot of people do have. You're in a great position. If you don't take this opportunity right now. You'll always regret it. He said, I'm, I'm at a point in my career that I could look back on things and give young architects like you this kind of advice. He said, you know, what you choose to do with it's your own thing, but that's what I think you need to do. And so I, I said, okay, well, and I, and I went home for a couple of days and it sort of, you know, started to germinate and take hold. And I said, okay, I'm gonna do this. I'm going to do this. So I borrowed some money from the bank of mom and dad because they have, they have the best interest rates. And I started my own firm in January of 11. Here we are. Right, right. And, you know, sort of it, it wasn't at the peak of the recession, but we were kind of still there kind of coming out of it. So, yeah,
Jamie:yeah. Well, I mean, and, you know, when I, you know, started, You know, my studio was, you know, 2010. So yeah. So I, I know that time period really well. And we all sort of, you know, kind of started to get to know each other or, you know, around there, you know, ish. But what you're describing though, is a lot of like Kurt's, like I could just see the smile on his face. Cause I think that there was a lot of, you know, recognition of probably thoughts that he was having at that time period. But before we kind of swing to him, I'm just sort of curious now that you've got, you've pulled Ben. You know, you pull Ben into the fold. Can you guys talk a little bit about that? That dynamic and
Brad:maybe, yeah, we're, we're really early in the process, but, you know, I, I've known Ben for 25 years, probably, you know. So, when we go way back, we were both, we weren't at Clemson at the same time but we knew, we knew each other there and we've had similar AA paths and I think we have similar personalities, you know, and the way we approach things and the way we see things. And that makes a real difference, right? The way that, I mean, because it's a marriage. It really, it really is. And you have to have somebody next to you that's willing to go the distance to work as hard as you are, to be as ambitious as you are, to make things work. And my current business partner is, is thinking about transitioning out of the firm, right? He's just now starting to talk about it. But, you know, the industry says. 10 years is what you need to really to make a good transition work. And most architects just get to the end of the day one day and go, I need to sell this place. Who's who's willing to who's willing to buy me out? And that's fine. You can't do that. So, you really have to start looking at somebody who's going to be there. To take the reins, and I, I talked to Ben for quite some time about it, and it just wasn't the right time. And then. This summer, you know, happened to, it happened to work out.
Ben:Yeah, and I think it was definitely one of those scenarios where, where I was at. It was a larger firm, largest firm I've worked at and you start looking around at the promotions and seeing the people that had just made senior associate or had just made. Associate principal and it's like they've been there 10 years longer than me. So you just start doing math with your age. And it's one of those things that you don't want to find yourself in your late fifties and you're receiving your, your one share. I think the opportunity to have more control over my, my destiny and then, you know, listening to Brad and hearing. Give it five years. You know, it's, you've got to, you know, you will regret it if you don't,
Jamie:well, would you say to just between the two of you guys and Kurt, please jump into is I think from a, from a service perspective, you know, one of the things that we've talked about a lot with other guests and, and amongst ourselves too, is sort of the AIA and, you know, as an institute and as a professional, you know, society, you know, That we've all devoted a lot of time to is that it's an accelerator in a sense for leadership opportunities but also sort of that you know, finding those like minded people. maybe not even in your region or that you've initially, you know, you wouldn't have meant necessarily otherwise. And, and hearing their stories or hearing that their own challenges or, or aspirations, it's changed your perspective enough to, you know, sort of to Brad's point to trust your gut and go, yeah, let's go do this thing, you know? And, and then when you're sort of describing that, it sort of sounds like, you know, some of that is also like, You know, that calculation that we do about our careers, not just in the work that we're doing, but sort of in the perspective that we have because of the people that we've met. And I'm sort of curious if you guys can speak to that a little bit.
Ben:Well, I think a big one for me was probably the practice innovation lab. And that was 2018, right, Kurt? Yeah, 17 or 18 right around there. And you know, just the, having that, you know, global perspective where we were all in the room, 50 participants and, and everybody there kind of had an entrepreneurial mindship and going through those scenarios and, you know, the, the most, the Businesses that were created were pretty outlandish, but it did at least make you start thinking like, you know, is there another way to go about this? Is there,
Kurt Neiswender:is
Ben:there another opportunity? Am I, am I looking at my career correctly? So it, I would say that kind of planted the seed for me. You know, I'd always had this notion of ownership was the goal, but was that because that's what I'd been told I needed to do early in my, you know, in college, early in my career, it's like you need to own a firm one day. And it's like, is that, Really the right path. I think when you when I got to that practice innovation lab and you really started pushing the notion of what a firm is and how a firm can practice in the modern day. That's really where the seed got planted that, you know, there's some great ideas here. There's some things that I think I can do to improve the profession.
Kurt Neiswender:You know, the intimidating thing about practice innovation lab was like feeling like I was definitely not the smartest person in the room, but that was the best part. I think the fact that there was so many other people.
Ben:I was in the room with Kurt, I was, knew I wasn't
Brad:You're right. The saying that if you're in, if you, if you the smartest person in the room, you need to switch the room. Yeah. You know, you don't learn anything if you're the smartest person in the room. You need to be. Yeah. Yeah. My
Jamie:team, my team had Catherine yeah. You know, and, and, emily Grandstaff, you know, it was like I had the two of them, like ones on one side of me and, and then Catherine was on the other side and they're like, and, and both of them are like, you know, I don't know if that, I don't know if that's a good idea. You know, it's like but yeah, no, I forget who else was on that team, but holy, holy moly. It was.
Kurt Neiswender:Yeah, but that's a good that I appreciate that because yeah, the, the, The atmosphere of that, that whole event, and then, you know, obviously fast forward a couple of years after that, and then it's pandemic times and and so many of the ideas that were, sort of the spit ball that it practice innovation lab had to happen. Right the remote models and the. Decentralized camps of, of, of staff and talent and things like that. And so, you know, then everyone's basically dropped in the deep end and and that's, that's kind of where I started my own company was through the pandemic. But I think being armed with those experiences through AI at the practice innovation lab and I've also been made, you know, allies with friends at entre architect, right. Which is Mark LaPage's group, which is another fantastic cohort of people that is there to like hearing Brad's story about having that mentor type architect positively sort of encourage you to start your own firm is the Is the people you want to surround yourself with rather than the ones that are cutting down. You know, there's some people here in Michigan, I'm not going to name names of course, but I've talked to people that have run some pretty big firms in Michigan and I've heard them outwardly say, Oh, I would never tell my children to go into architecture because you're never going to make any money. And I tell them to go in the opposite direction. And I'm like, I don't think that's the, that's the stance that you want to, you know, Be putting out there,
Jamie:like, how are you treating people? Right.
Brad:Not a good way to get people to buy your firm out nearly.
Jamie:Yeah. Yeah. Where's that success succession planning? You know, I mean, that's, that's, that's where architecture gets this bad name, right on the business side. Yeah. But, but no, I think it's interesting, you know, and, and, and Ben, thank you for sort of bringing up, you know, practice innovation lab, because I think that, you know, to think about that, that's. Six years ago or so now is kind of crazy, but it's like it's, I think those kinds of moments where there is a level of innovation, which I mean, you know, Evelyn was, I mean, that was, that was her baby. Right. And. And, and I think that, you know, it's, and quietly so, I mean, as, as, as we all know Evelyn very well, but it's like, I think it was sort of quietly so in the way that for her, it was sort of positioning the institute, but at the time, and positioning a new generation of leadership at the time in a room to talk about not just sort of kind of global goals, but like, The business of architecture, like what's the future of architecture? Like what's the future of practice and sort of the way that you were sort of talking about yourself in that big firm is sort of like looking around and going, okay, I like the work we do. I feel like I'm making a difference. You know, I like the people I work with, but the leadership pathway is kind of murky or it's like, wow, that's really an old way of thinking, you know, not to be, you know, too critical of them, not knowing who the firm is, but it's like, I think that paradigm shift that the practice innovation lab started with as a premise, like we are going to shift the paradigm, like, and not know what that answer is. And have a whole conference with that being the, like, we don't, we're not even going to give you a lecture that's going to send you on a certain pathway. It's like, we're just going to assemble a group of people and just say, go. And, and that, and that was like, you know, and to be at that point in our careers where we were set in that situation, looking back at it is so, you know, it's such a gift. I mean, it was just such a gift, you know, I mean, it's a gift for me kind of where I was in my own career, but at the same time, you know, the people that I've spoken with since then, like yourself and it's, you know, hearing that from other people is, is, it's pretty indicative, I think, of everybody's experience with
Kurt Neiswender:it. Yeah, it did take, it takes some time away from it to realize that, you know, what it was, how special that was as a person. Or unique, I don't know, special, unique, which, you know, pick a word, but the, the offering that it provided and the, and the outcomes from it too, so.
Jamie:Well, and so, and do you always practice? How many, how many folks are at Radium?
Brad:We'll see, five and a half. Okay. full time employees and then a part time business developer.
Kurt Neiswender:This way,
Brad:the mouth, the better half,
Ben:the gift of gab.
Brad:Yes. Oh, he is. He is very outgoing. Rain the man arrives. He doesn't need any coffee. Yeah.
Jamie:Yeah.
Kurt Neiswender:I always, I always envy those people, you know, I could, I could, I could have a cup of coffee and go to bed.
Brad:You know, I could too. You know, I don't, I don't have any problem drinking coffee at any time of the day. Yeah. So, but yeah, I mean, we've got essentially four architects an office manager, and our part time BDI is actually a retired healthcare architect. So.
Jamie:And most of your work is sort of. In in the Greenville area or is it sort of regional or how how does that work? I I don't know that market very well and I honestly don't know the geography too well either
Brad:so we are in upstate south carolina, which is sort of the north west corner of the state we are Almost exactly halfway between atlanta and charlotte Okay All right, so that that area is called charlanta Because it seems to be growing into sort of one big Area Urban sprawl area, but yeah, in that area, and we did pretty well in the Great Recession well, Charlotte and Atlanta did very poorly but we seem to have weathered it fairly well, better than most areas. We've got a pretty robust economic development groups that, that keep, keep a lot of industry. Coming into the state, they're trying, they're trying to breach into other areas of, you know, biomedical and automotive is a big issue. Industry here, because the BMW has 1 of the, their largest plant in the world. I think in the world now is they make all the X 3s to X 5s. At 7s, I guess X 4s next 6s as well. All of them there. So.
Kurt Neiswender:Lots of X's. It's all the, that's like the SUV, right? So it's probably most probably mostly see those in the States, right? They don't probably drive them so much overseas because well, it depends. You would, yeah. Thanks for a lot.
Brad:Thanks. Thanks for a lot.
Kurt Neiswender:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The, you know, what about the you started, did you start out with a partnership or so is one. It was just me. And then the two. Mm hmm. So, so was the two an employee or the partner? The partner.
Brad:Yeah.
Kurt Neiswender:Oh, okay.
Brad:He was actually my, one of the partners at my former firm. Oh. So he had left a little bit before I did and did a stint with a healthcare firm here in town Once he wrote the final, he wrote the final tuition check for his daughter's college, he said, I'm going to do something fun now. And
Jamie:so you're the fun? Are you saying you're the fun?
Brad:Yeah, you say that like you're surprised.
Jamie:No, no, well, I mean, maybe that's your pitch. Is that how you got Ben to work for you? Like, or work with you? I
Ben:was promised fun.
Jamie:Yeah, fun. Okay, how's that working out? Is that, is that working out? Okay, man,
Kurt Neiswender:it is, okay, well, he's got all the Legos behind him. So I know. Well, I
Jamie:mean, hey, there's, that's promising. It's a, it looks, he looks happy. So
Ben:not a captive.
Jamie:No, no, no, not like, like, you're not putting up the newspaper going.
Kurt Neiswender:Oh, we didn't establish the safe word before the show started. I know. I know.
Jamie:I know. We're, we're going to keep you guys for a while. So did we want, did we
Kurt Neiswender:want to talk about sketch or you want to keep talking?
Jamie:God, I hope so.
Kurt Neiswender:You know, that is
Jamie:part of the podcast.
Kurt Neiswender:Well, I mean, do you, I mean, like right now, maybe you can bring it
Jamie:on because I think, I think one of the things that I wanted to kind of emphasize with these guys is also how we know them. Because, you know, because clearly, you know you know, we, we have talked about the practice innovation lab and sort of how that, you know, has you know, been sort of seminal. Kind of moment for a few of us. But, but I think that sort of our AI perspective and and, and we've had other guests on in the past, you know, kind of through that cohort. But I think that, so how long, so I've known Brad longer than I've known Ben, but not by much. So. Brad, you were South Carolina, were you on, you, were you ever on, were you on Adcom? Or were you for YAF or? No. Yes, no. So,
Brad:I guess I was one of those Gen Xers that got licensed late. So, I did a stint, yeah, I did a stint on the NAC. Okay. Where I was the regional associate director for a while, and then I went on to the adcom. And that's that's where I first met Evelyn. As well as quite a few others that that are now either on strategic council and other and other places, but then I went sort of straight into the YF adcom. I was not on like a yard. I went straight into the adcom there. So,
Jamie:okay. Yeah, cause, cause, you know, I, I represented Texas for, you know, like a minute and, and that's how I met my partner in crime here. You know, I was, I was two terms. Yeah. He seemed to be like Michigan forever. But they were a little,
Kurt Neiswender:yeah, a little slow to adopt the the, the yard. Now I think there's a good foothold or how do you put it? You know, I, I, I mean, I don't want to go back in time that far, but yeah, Michigan, Michigan had a lapse in the yard. And so there was a little bit of a institutional, you know, memory loss for a second. And then, so I, I carried two terms in order to reestablish. And then since then, I think it's been well represented continuously. So, but yeah, so that I, I got the luxury of having. Four years, I guess, right? Two, two year terms, I think. As a, as a yard from Michigan, which got me, let's see, I, Brad, you were probably already on when I came on and then Ben came on and then Jamie probably, you know, well, I guess Jamie next, then Ben, then, then I rolled off. And so yeah, I'm like the, I'm like the maybe the thread that sort of, you're the thread buddy, you're the thread and you also got us some podcasts
Jamie:out of this. So that's good.
Kurt Neiswender:And all I got was this lousy
Jamie:podcast. Yeah.
Kurt Neiswender:and a couple of
Brad:T-shirts. Yeah. I remember Damnit, we sat together, we got, we sat together at the dinner. I think it was in Seattle, wasn't, we had a long, long, good dinner conversation there. What I remember. Yeah. That was good. Yeah. And but yeah, same way. I mean N-A-C-Y-F, even strategic council
Jamie:mm-hmm
Brad:I can't tell you how many great people like you guys that, that, that we've met and you formed these great bonds. And I feel like. At least I personally have benefited, I guess, more by being exposed to other different viewpoints and people and having them come into your life and influence you in ways about. I mean, I wouldn't be. I wouldn't be where I am, right? You know, in a finished on a strategic council. I really, if it wasn't for Evelyn, I got to tell you that. I mean. Yeah because she was, she was I guess they had just won the. You know, Mark, the associate award and she sort of served served as a, an inspiration to me. And I was like, you know. These things, you know, you can come back to your, your chapter and implements a lot of these programs. You don't have to reinvent the wheel. And so that's, I got, I got a foothold there and, you know, here we are today. So,
Jamie:well, I mean, and that's the thing, right? It's, it's the sharing of of information and knowledge and. And, and building up, you know, building up your cohort, you know, of counterparts, you know, all across the country and I mean,
Brad:I mean, you tried. Yeah.
Jamie:Yeah. I mean, and it just, it was so damn exciting. You know, that, you know, I mean, you know, part of the reason why I'm on strategic council is having a conversation with Kurt. Well, obviously but, but Brad at conference. When. I wasn't sure if I was going to try and like throw my hat in the ring anymore for, you know, doing any more, you know, service service opportunities. Cause it was like, you know, I, I think I might be done, you know, I, I'm not sure if I like that game of having to, you know, go get votes and all that kind of stuff. And, you know, and everybody sort of was like, no, Jamie, you, you, you still got a whole lot more to give and, you know, you know, try. Right. And I'm glad I did and I'm glad I did because then after I got it, then I found out like, Hey, Ben's going to be on there too, you know, and he's coming in, you know, kind of in a different way, but it's like, you know, those are the, those are the moments where you kind of look around the room and you go, yeah, this is, this is exactly where I need to be. You know, and, and I'm glad that I'm glad that I am. So
Kurt Neiswender:it's like the, the, the YF reunion tour
Jamie:together.
Ben:Well, that was part of my, my motivation. You know, Brad was rolling off and, and South Carolina was looking for somebody to, to take his place on strategic council. Honestly, we're starting with Brad. I was like, well, maybe this is something I need to hold off on for, for the next round, you know, wait three years. But then I got to looking at who was going to be, you know, Evelyn and Ilya, then like Jessica is the moderator. It's like all the people that I had served in YAF with. are now in the leadership of AIA. And it just felt like the right moment to, to join back up with the old cohorts and, and do what we've done before and make, and make great changes. But yeah,
Jamie:that's exactly what
Ben:you're saying.
Jamie:No, for sure. Well, and, and so Kurt's got the sketch on the screen
Kurt Neiswender:and hence, hence the sketch. Yeah.
Jamie:Hence the sketch from the trip. So yeah
Kurt Neiswender:so the octagon house and Jamie, Jamie's going to fill us in with more of the history, but we, we've had sketches of the, this is a new angle. You know, Jamie's sketched the octagon house multiple times and so it's kind of fun. So octagon house for those that are, have never heard this podcast ever and don't know what architects do. are all about is the, is the original headquarters of AI national, the national membership headquarters for architects in the country. And it is, it's now probably more of what ceremonial space than you know, offices anymore, right. It's more of a historical landmark. And then the offices are like, next door, right? Aren't they pretty close by? Yeah, it's right behind. Yeah. And so on the left is on your left in the sketch is the octagon house on the, on the right. Is that is that related adjacent?
Jamie:Well, I mean, it's in the physical space. It's the day before, because we know that in looking at Jamie's sketchbook, he does not necessarily go in order of the pages of the book. Also
Kurt Neiswender:left handed, left handed. So
Jamie:there's a whole lot of weirdness going on. But yeah, no, that's the I had to go see the newest monument on the mall. Or near the mall. I hadn't seen the Eisenhower Memorial. I don't know if you guys have seen it. So Frank Gary,
Kurt Neiswender:that's the scrim,
Jamie:you know, the scrim wall. highly controversial, took a bajillion years to get through and get built. And I think it got, you know, value engineered and, and, and altered a bajillion times as well. But at the same time, I think as sort of a, an edifice, it's, it's a really interesting piece. I think that. I mean, my take on it, and it was a dreary day, it was really cold that day is, I think that there was a lot of effort to try and orient the space to this vantage point that I tried to pick up in the sketch, where you're picking up that angle towards the capital, and you can sort of see that sort of line in, in the, in the ground plane that's actually matches the street grid which I never, ever would have picked up on from a rendering or something like that. So there's a, a matching set of lines, basically the curb on, on the left, which is in, which is, isn't in the sketch. And that's the street. So that's the street that's, you know, kind of would have, you know, traversed this site if it continued. And so I think that there was a, there was definitely an effort to kind of ground this location. I think what's difficult about it for me is that I think there are only going to be some people who are going to appreciate that. And, and also interact with it. I don't, I don't think that there's sort of that effort to have you walk through this space in this kind of direction to experience the site. And I think that those were some, it felt empty. I mean, I think that is the word I'm looking for is the space really felt empty. And in that it felt less inviting than other parts of the mall. that, that I love, you know, and, and it's, I think there's spaces that are contemplative like the, you know, Vietnam Veterans Memorial. And, you know, but even in, even in that space, you know where to stand. You don't feel like you're being, you know, and you also know where you want to move. You know, this space, I, it was so empty. The cues weren't telling me what to do. And, and that felt kind of strange. So that was, that was, that was sort of a weird reaction. I wasn't expecting that. Cause I knew about the scrim. I wanted to see how it was detailed, all the architecty things, but, but inhabiting the space, I had a completely different effect. And so this was sort of at the end when I'm leaving it, I kind of looked back and I was like, Oh, Hmm, maybe this is what I was supposed to think about. feel or something. I don't know. It was, it was strange.
Kurt Neiswender:Was it, was it performing? It's a other duty. Our friend of the podcast, Evan Troxell, right? When he went through DC, he called it the trash catcher. Like, I guess when it's real windy out. All the, all the trash on the street just gets caught in the scrim wall.
Jamie:Oh, I didn't see that. I didn't see that. I would have, that would have, you know, I wouldn't,
Kurt Neiswender:they kept it clean, huh? They figured it was clean. It was clean there. That's good. Yeah. I haven't seen it yet myself, but I remember the whole process there. Picking Frank Gehry and all that stuff, you know.
Ben:Is it Eisenhower as a boy? Is that still the, the central statue? Oh,
Jamie:oh no, it's, it's, they've got multiples. Okay. Oh yeah, I think there was a whole lot of going back and forth with the family to, you know. Correct. Yeah, the boy is there. So the boy is the entry point. And so there's this kind of contemplative moment. There's a good quote. And him as a boy, it's a nice statue. It's a nice bronze statue. But seeing that as the entry point. I kind of walked in that way. I was like, Oh, well, there's this one statue that's out at the street. I'm supposed to interact with this. I go there first. And then I'm like, now I'm lost. Like it was sort of like, like the series of rooms, like, have you guys been to the FDR memorial? Yes. Yes. Yeah. So the FDR one has kind of that series of rooms, you know, through his, you know, multiple, you know, years in service, this didn't have that. I think it wanted to have that, but it didn't have that.
Brad:Jamie, I gotta tell you, I'm, I'm continuously impressed by the, the sketches you post on Facebook, because we're friends, you post there all the time. And I always stop and check, check out your post. It's not only the quality of your, your sketches, but the. The discipline and the rigor that you take to sketch all the time, you know, they, they talk about architects. That's what we do. You know, they kind of, we're kind of trained to do that. Yeah. But not everybody does but and you do, and I got to tell you, I'm impressed, impressed by it. Really. Oh, well, thank you. Thank you. I
Jamie:appreciate
Ben:that. That's why I'm embarrassed to even share when I'm one of my sketches. It's leave those off to the side over here.
Kurt Neiswender:No, I thought there was 1 that we have to see, though. We do. Let me stop sharing this screen. So we get this is a
Ben:segue to that.
Kurt Neiswender:Oh, we'll say that, you know,
Ben:when we have one of the we have one of the great architecture sketchers here in Greenville professor Lynn Craig with, with Clemson urban sketching classes forever. And so, you know, we've, we've done some of those and I've gone with them and I've actually taken my son who's six. So he has, he has picked up a bit of a sketching bug. Let me show my sketch now. Yes. Yes. And we, and
Jamie:we, and we have had the full
Ben:screen.
Jamie:We've had, you know, Lynn, like we've had that full curtain. I've had that experience. So yeah, at the conference,
Ben:my son has gotten into watching YouTube videos to learn to sketch more. And so the current series of videos, I'll, I'll show you, we're doing Christmas themed sketches together. So you fold your paper and then, you know, it's a nice Christmas present. And then you kind of unfold it and create a Christmas monster. So for, for a a six year old boy, that's great. These knees are right there.
Jamie:Oh, that's great. You know, this is, this is, this is where it starts, buddy. This is where it starts. So
Kurt Neiswender:he should hopefully he, you know, in time, cause you know, we sometimes expletives are Given, but you know, in time he can be a listener or watcher of this podcast. Yeah, we are. You know, Jamie, Jamies gotten the, the loose lips there. You know, sometimes he, I know the last couple episode four letter word fly.
Jamie:Yeah. The last couple episodes, like it's usually only one. I don't want to be only one time. Like, so we're still like PG 13. Well, could we throw an
Ben:idea out that you do like a podcast just for, for kids to, to learn? This is totally,
Jamie:Hey, we will be able to take all comers at this point of ideas. Our good friend advanced we all know ed college of fellows Chancellor, former Chancellor friend of the YAF, liaison excellent photographer. He Las Vegas. It's Vegas. He he has made many a time a suggestion to me about the coffee table book for the coffee sketches. So, so yes, I will take as many ideas because I need to figure out what to do next.
Kurt Neiswender:Well, we have 160 plus episodes, hours and hours, hours, forever, drawings and drawings. And, and me being, so, you know, Jamie, Jamie's the, the primary muse, let's just put it that way for sketches. But Kurt is the expert. Archivist of all art. I keep everything. So there is that that's that's the overwhelming part is the body of of work to sift through for the Book, I mean it once that sweater starts to unravel. It's not gonna be one book. It's probably gonna be volumes of
Jamie:Well, and, and I think too, Ben, you know, it's you know you definitely need to show him Laura's work if you haven't yet,
Kurt Neiswender:The architect what do they call it? The alphabet.
Jamie:Yeah. The architect alphabet. Have you seen hers? Yeah. I mean, that's, it
Kurt Neiswender:might be a little young, young,
Jamie:but at the same time, but still him knowing it's an architect who's doing those sketches. Right. I think is pretty good. But I, I think the, the, I'm gonna, I'm just going to lose the name, but Kurt's going to help me here is because we've talked about him. We had to figure it out. It took us a minute. It took us probably about 10 minutes in an episode. We're not going to bore you with that part. But there was a guy like when I was like, Oh,
Kurt Neiswender:we'll just say it. Oh, are we talking about Matt? The
Jamie:that's not his name. Kessler. Kessler. The captain guy.
Kurt Neiswender:The, the, oh god, now you're gonna make me.
Jamie:See? This is what you guys are experiencing the whole time.
Kurt Neiswender:So
Jamie:there was a show like there was a show on TV and like I would come home from, I'm thinking middle school it might've been elementary school and this guy basically like just, you know, had these imaginary worlds that he was going to show us how to draw. And I loved it. Mark Kistler, Mark sounds right.
Kurt Neiswender:It is But
Jamie:that like
Kurt Neiswender:his, his show was
Jamie:apparently it was a documentary of him.
Kurt Neiswender:Yeah. So what was it called?
Jamie:Something, something. Keep on, keep going. Okay, I'll
Kurt Neiswender:keep
Jamie:going. I'll keep describing it and Kurt's going to find it. So he basically would talk about, he would, he would layer in. Drawing techniques and practices, but it would do it in a way where it was really accessible to a younger audience. So like talking about perspective and talking about foreground and background and, you know, concepts that, you know, from an art perspective, you know, I mean, I'm, I am fortunate that I do have a bit of a gift. I know that. But it's also something that was, you know, You know, I was fortunate that my grandmother realized that when I was super, super young and insisted that I just, anytime Jamie wanted to draw, Jamie was allowed to go draw.
Brad:Yeah.
Jamie:Like, like if like, we're at a family thing and I kind of wander away and I'm sketching, like, don't go, don't bother him. Don't pull him back, let him keep drawing. And so she just sort of protected that space for me. And. You know, fortunately the talent just kind of continued to thrive in that, but I never really took a lot of art classes, you know, and I mean, I, I took like one when, when I was like a kid yeah. Commander Mark, there he is. Here we go. So, so secret
Kurt Neiswender:city and imagination station,
Jamie:watch that with your kid. I mean, if you've
Kurt Neiswender:not seen it, I mean, oh
Jamie:my God. Jamie and I
Kurt Neiswender:both. I mean, when we were growing up, I mean, oh, we didn't know each other. But yeah, this is, I mean like we both were in love with this show.
Jamie:It just, it's amazing. I mean, there's like, there's things that, like, I still draw, I know this guy. Ways that he showed me when I was like, you know, eight or something like that. I mean, it was like, yeah, that's awesome.
Kurt Neiswender:It was so much fun.'cause it was all, he basically started everything with a blank, a blank slate. Oh yeah. And then just started doodling and inventing. And that's really, you know, what got me interested in architecture or, you know, art or drawing or using my hand to, you know, to create something was because and like, so they quote him here, right? He said, dream it, draw it, do it. And draw every day, right? I mean, those are the things he said,
Jamie:and it was
Kurt Neiswender:no matter what it was.
Jamie:Yeah. And that was the thing. It was, it was like, it was sort of whatever's in your head, you're, you're allowed to draw it. And, and you're also allowed to make mistakes. And that was the whole thing was what, what we talk a lot about in the podcast is sort of. The spirit of that, that we, you know, that we talk about, Kurt and I, you know, both as educators and architects is, you know, it's, I mean, it's a little bit art therapy, right? But it's also, it's design thinking, you know, it's testing, it's testing ideas. And for me, the reason why I artificially put sketcher is you know, generally speaking, I try and do all my sketches in 15 minutes or less. Like just, I try and do that. There are days when I need more time drawing just for my own mental health. And so I'll lean into it a little bit longer and draw a little bit longer. Or because the situation allows me to what that sort of time limit does though, and this is sort of a thing for your son is it makes you make decisions, you know, and, and then live with them. Even if, even if after deciding I'm doing this. You might not like it, but you sort of have to pivot and kind of work with it. And, and that's okay. You know, and, and that creative bug about solving the problems you just created for yourself while you're in the process is kind of cool, you know, and I mean, it's fresh, it's frustrating at first, but it's kind of cool when you start to feel it, you know, and you kind of know, I made this harder for myself. But I think I can fix it, you know, and, and that sort of self reliance as a creative in that moment is something that really can't be taught, you know, you can only do it by drawing every day. And, and that's, that's a life skill, right? And it's, it's something that I'd say like, you know, my daughter doesn't like to draw with dad, you know at some point, at some point in her life, she like, I don't want to draw with dad anymore. And then, and then, and then sort of picked it back up and was like, no, no, I actually like drawing with dad because I realize like, you know, you're allowed to make mistakes. You know, and you're allowed to kind of figure it out and sort of change your mind and, and, and work through it. And and that, and that's sort of a, and it's also sort of, it's a, it's a, it can be a community bonding thing. Sort of what you were talking about with your, your gentleman from Clemson is at that point. Now you realize you can have a community of people who also all enjoy this, all do it different. You can all get around sort of the same activity. and, and, and, and celebrate it a bit. That's, that's, you know, that's hard to come by sometimes, you know, in today's world. So you know, that, I think that, I think that's, those are, those are different pieces of it, but totally watch that show. Oh my God. Finally, you might
Kurt Neiswender:have to go to YouTube to, to find, cause this is, you know, talking about some 80 stuff here, but you know,
Ben:No, it's definitely a power. I'm sorry. Go ahead. No, no, you go ahead. I'll just say it's it's the the power of watching him starting to draw, you know, he's he can be very self critical of himself. Like if I don't know it, I shut down. And so exactly what you've been saying is what I've seen emerge out of him is that he's literally said the line. It's okay to not know what you're doing or it's okay if it's it's not quite right, but it's okay. Okay. And it's that it's building a self confidence through sketching. I mean, you know, he may, he may go on to be a banker or something. We, I don't know, but it's, I can see immediate results in his behavior when he starts sketching. Oh yeah, for sure.
Jamie:I mean, well, and just, it, it, it allows you, it's a different form of communication, right? I mean, that's the other part of it too, is that, you know, if, you know you know, if your kid isn't like a big reader or, you know, or only likes to read certain subjects or isn't a, you know, big public speaker, you know, but, but, you know, could really describe something really well if, if pushed to do it, you know, maybe the pen on the paper is a different way of communicating that and that level of confidence, you know, comes through that and then translates itself in a different kind of way. It's not that it's like it's that transformative, but. But if you kind of, you know, allow it to sort of take hold you know, like I said, I didn't, I mean, I had a friend recently ask,'cause they've got some kids, you know, kind of around the age that you're talking about. And they were like, you know, they love to sketch. You know, I'm trying to sketch again too. I haven't sketched in a long time. And they're like, should I take a, should I, they take a class. I'm like, hmm, maybe you know. You kind of have to know who you are and what your kids like to kind of got bored taking a, you know, an art class you know, it just like, but then you get that right art teacher, you know, who, you know, like this guy on the TV show, but, you know, I had like one or two of those art teachers at critical points who just opened up the world, like they just, you like, you see what they're doing or how they're talking about it. And you're like, I never would have thought about it that way, and it's like, you know, mesmerizing, you know. So I think, you know, those, those are the things that you look for. It's not, it's not a singular, not a singular path. It's kind of, I guess, my No, it isn't.
Brad:You know, for me, it's the value of sketching in architecture. It is the rapid development and sharing of ideas that collaborative when you can sit down and really quickly just kind of sketch something else like this is what I'm thinking, you know, you know, you make a mistake. All right. I sketch that out. I got it out of my head and work or I was doing something else and just the rapid exchange of ideas and the collaboration and that synergy you can have. When you have a group of people sitting around a table working out an issue, that's, to me, as it specifically applies to architecture, that's the value, right? You know, I don't have the discipline like Jamie, you do, to sit and capture a moment. But capturing the moment, the practice, the rigor of capturing that moment, helps. When you're in that group with people collaborating and being able to get that idea out and work it out, you know, it's just, it's practice. It's like, just like, like anything. Right? You know, so, you know, a lot of people think that, like you said, then you said it needs to be perfect. It doesn't have to be perfect. You know, that's not the point. The point is being there in the moment, working it out.
Jamie:And you
Brad:go on to the
Jamie:next one. You learn a little bit, you go on to the next one. I mean, you know, it's sort of what Brad's sort of saying is that it's that practice and it's, it's the communication you know, going, circling back to the original conversation we had when we started this talking about architects and different architecture that sort of influenced us, you know, looking at that work is really important. You know, for me sketching it, when I sketch it, it's committed to memory, like, and, and I'm, I'm able to think about it in a different way. That's just how I'm wired. Not everybody's wired that way. That's how I'm wired. And, but what part of that is something I realized in school was I can mimic. I mean, I learned that early in life, but like in architecture school is great was because I could mimic. Like certain architectural styles and certain architecture and certain types of drawing. Some more than others. Some are way more challenging. But it's like you start to figure out like, oh, how they draw that, you know, and and sort of focusing on the how not that what, you know, it's like that just the how and and that added to my skill set so that I'm learning by looking at someone else's stuff, how they did it, not what it is. I could care less what it is. And, and then like, now I've got those skills myself that I can use when I want and deploy them when I want to. That's, you know, I think for, you know, the younger me would be, if I could have shown myself a variety of more stuff to look at earlier, I think that would have accelerated my growth. just because of what I've been able to do with it now. Yeah, I agree. And probably the same for architecture, you know, it's like the more architecture you're exposed to, yeah, and understand, you know, the, you know, the higher acceleration and growth you're going to have because you're, you're sort of filling your brain, you know, filling the bucket with more stuff, you know.
Brad:And then that's the underpinning of every overseas program for every college of architecture that exists.
Jamie:You just, you're just touching my heart right now.
Brad:Just touching my heart. You get, you get, you get you out of your little microcosm that you've grown up into and expose you to a larger world. Yeah,
Ben:that's what Pinterest is for.
Kurt Neiswender:I hate to say that there's a lot of Pinterest going on in the schools. It's my mood board together. Yeah, it's not all bad. But yeah, there's, there's, there's different, roles that, that these things can play it just like any tool in the toolbox, you know, sketching is one. And then these other, as Brad said, you know, the, the virtual or the digital world is so, so much more accessible now than, than all of us sitting on the floor of the library, like it sounds like we all used to do. So, yeah, so, so Jamie, the we've kept our guests.
Jamie:They've been very gracious with our wanderingness. We're at the end of the year, guys. This is how it happens. But
Kurt Neiswender:yeah, we I'll just say thanks to Oh, yes yes. Oh, thanks for Well, first, before I answer that question, Thanks to Brad and thanks to Ben for joining us. And always thanks to Jamie. Thank you guys for inviting us at Saucer and Crime. The Oh, and, and but before we go, Ben has a question about pens. Recommendations. So what's everybody's go to, and I'm going to show you my latest, my
Jamie:latest so Gifting yourself again. I got you. Yeah, this
Kurt Neiswender:was definitely a a reward to self was I got, I got myself a Lamy 2000.
Ben:Excellent pen.
Kurt Neiswender:So it's a, you know, it's a fountain pen. It's a hooded
Ben:nib.
Kurt Neiswender:Yep. I'm going to get the whole camera angle. It's awesome. Do that thing there. There you go. So it's a, you know, the cool thing about it is, well, first of all, it writes amazingly, it is a piston filler with no. Disposable parts, right? Like, so all you need is a bottle of ink. And then the, the interesting thing I did a lot, I, I geek out about this stuff and we talk, we talk about it seldom, you know, but with found me and Jamie, but, and I'm sure, I know Ben is, is into pens, but the literally make it the same way that they've always made it from the beginning. So it's kind of goes like the, we talked about Lego and the green room and Legos behind Ben, but like they literally haven't changed the design at all in the 60 or 70 years. I think it's been made, maybe it's even older. And You know, get it right the first time that's right now. Now, don't tell our clients that that's, that's capable of being, wow,
Brad:we don't do anything in this just as simple as a, as a, a nice, elegant pin.
Kurt Neiswender:Well, it's true. We, we make, we make more than just, we make, we don't make, A million billion of one thing we make one of everything. So, so,
Jamie:so Ben, what is your, so I'll say what's your go to sketch pen. And then, and then quickly with that though, is if, so there's the short, fast iterative, like you're like, Hey Brad, let's, let's work through an idea pen. And then there's the, I'm going to spend some time myself sketching pen. In my mind, like those are two, like, or are they?
Ben:The, the, well, I think for sketching, I would tend to, again, I'm going to go with the, with the Lamy the Safari, which I think every architect should probably own a zillion of these. They're super affordable. The great part, I mean, let me get up here is the nib. I mean, you can, you know, the nib just comes off. So you can replace the nib with any size. You can get multiple colors. So you kind of know which size is which nib. That that's more for like the quick sketching, general note taking every day. I'm actually writing something. Sailor makes a pen. They're a Japanese company. Their nibs are fantastically beautiful. 18 karat gold. Again, you can get it and it's a piston filler like the 2000, if you're not on this budget, which I don't know who our audience is, Amazon sells Mahjong, which is a knockoff with a sailor. Yeah. Look at that. Very similar. I've heard of those. These are like 40 bucks. And they stainless steel nib, but it writes exceptionally well. Again, you can, the nibs,
Kurt Neiswender:you know, talking about price points. I I thought I'd lost my, my Lamy 2000. And I told some of my students that, you know, keep an eye out. And they were like, why? And I'm like, well, it's not cheap. And they were like, what's it cost? All right. around 200 bucks. I think I scared them all. They're going to ransom. Luckily it, I did not lose it in studio or near studio. So yeah, but you know, when it's like a quality versus quantity thing, like if you're going to spend time with something you want to, you want to really invest in something. And then there's
Jamie:me, Mike, who does the sketching pilot, like, yeah. The pilot makes a good pin. Pilot doesn't make a good pen. I mean, I will, I can break a Pilot pen faster than anybody. Cause I will, I'm going to push that damn thing to like, come up with as many different line weights as I can muster out of the same pen. But it's, yeah, the reason why I use it so much, it's like, I mean, I'm not afraid to lose it cause they're so cheap. I've also like a lot of, like, I'm lefty, lefties among us, any lefties, sorry. So I just, I mean, I, I grew up like with like the, you know, graphite on my hand and ink and stuff. And like, just like, I couldn't get away from it. So that whole thing about the pen spilling and breaking and whatever. I mean, I, You adapt. You adapt or you fail. And so I, I adapted really, really early to all those types of things. But no, I, I mean, I, I, I joke about, you know, the pilot and the sort of the inexpensiveness of that pen. But it's like the other part of it too, is I got plenty of other instruments, you know, and tools and things that I love. It's just that, you know, they're sort of here in the studio and you know, Because I'm afraid to lose them because I will. I'm a little absent minded sometimes but.
Kurt Neiswender:So what
Jamie:about Brad? Yeah, what about you?
Brad:I don't know if I have a favorite, especially with you guys but I'm, I'm really particular about like the office pens, just like the general pens. We just can't have garbage pens in the office. The only thing that I really like to buy, Is the uni ball vision elite. Okay. As, as like the, the like the standard office pin. Like, you know, people come in and like, oh, have some pins. I'm like, oh, thank you. And it's right. Ball points. Yeah. I know the, the reps all
Kurt Neiswender:bring the ball point and you're like, yeah.
Brad:Yeah. And, and I, I really appreciate it, but you got to know your audience. You can't, you can't give an architect a, a a just a generic pen. It's not gonna work.
Kurt Neiswender:Yeah.
Ben:Oh, you know what? I missed, I missed an opportunity. We had a segue that was perfect between pens and what we were talking about earlier. Last pen of the night. Parker 51. Oh, this was the pen that Eisenhower used to sign the end of World War Two. And this model is actually, this pen was made in 1946. So, same a year after the war ended. So, probably my favorite pen of all the ones I own. I love it. Or something that's you know, 80 years old, it writes incredibly beautiful.
Jamie:So I have a question for you, Ben. So in watching your son sort of go on this art journey, what do you find is his favorite kind of go to kind of implement
Ben:he is using. So his, his. The YouTube videos that he's doing They draw everything with sharpie and then go back in and color with either color pencil or marker So he's doing sharpie, which makes my life cringe that he's he's like
Jamie:Well, I will say so along those lines this is what you tell your tell your wife From up from a comfort level is just say I was talking to a friend And one of the things that I did when I've been, when I I've done the sketch tour for our state conference where I take a bunch of architects and sort of wander around the city and it's just me sort of doing it. So it's me and my irreverence, you know, kind of attitude towards things. But one of the things that I try and do is sort of level the playing field with everybody right off the bat, because everybody's got some skills. You know, everyone wants to show off, you know, everyone wants to do their thing and they've got their favorite pencil or pen or whatever. And that's fine. I love looking and a lot of the folks I know them and I know how good they are and I love their drawings anyways. But in that audience, in that moment, what I try and do is remind them of kind of where they started. And in that moment I gave them all graphite. Like, and so, like, you know, like the, the vine charcoal kind of graphite kind of stuff and, you know, where their hands got dirty and they're like, Oh, what do you mean you make my fingers dirty? But you can't, you know, you, you have to think about what you're doing and, you know, and you also become very gestural. And so I think the Sharpie does that too. is that you can't be as precise and as fine with that implement. And so, you know, there's some decision making that you have to do in sort of the drawing, you know, and kind of as you're doing it, but there was also a lot, a way to kind of get the energy out, you know, with something that's a little bit fatter and, and that energy is important. You know, cause it, that's, you know, that's part of the activity of doing it and the excitement of doing the activity, especially at that age. And so for me, it was, I was trying to do that with the architects is like, remind everybody why this is fun, you know, is like, like, cause the drawings aren't going to be perfect. Like, cause it's vine charcoal, like no one can draw really well with vine charcoal, especially if they haven't done in a long time. So like your drawings are going to look crap, you know, but, but it's going to be fun and, and then move them back into. Letting them use the implements that they, they prefer. And what it did was it sort of was an icebreaker. And, and I think that, I think the Sharpie does that for, for, for the kids do, or for anybody really, is that you're only going to be able to do it a certain way, but the energy associated with it is sort of exciting. So yeah, that's awesome. I love it. That's great to hear.
Brad:I remember when I was younger in my career, I was, I took a plan from a, a senior architect that I was working under. And then I, I was trying to make it work and I went back to him and said, we've got all this stuff and these things aren't aligning. He was like, I don't understand. I gave you a plan. It worked fine. Everything works when it's drawn with a Sharpie. That's one of the things. I didn't, I didn't get it. I didn't win any friends saying that. But it's true. I mean, it's like, now that we're working precise, things don't, things don't work out as well as you had drawn. So I'm looking to collaborate on some you know, resolution for these items and it didn't win me. Anyway, but that's always when I, when I laugh, Sharpie, yeah, it'll work when we draw it with a Sharpie. But you're right, but it's that, that, that non precise nature of it in the moment. It's great.
Kurt Neiswender:Well, we've covered a lot of ground in, in about two hours. So I appreciate again. That has been awesome. So, yeah, we'll have to do it again. Maybe maybe in person in in Boston or something.
Jamie:Do that. Absolutely. I'd love to do that.
Kurt Neiswender:Something else.
Jamie:Yeah. Thank you guys so much. This was, this was super fun. Appreciate it. Happy new year. Cause we might not see or talk to you before then, but you know, thank you so much for coming on.
Brad:Yeah, absolutely. We loved it. Thanks for the invitation. Thank you anytime.
