171 - Architectural Musings

Architectural Musings & Coffee Chats

In this episode of the only architecture-themed podcast that feels like a chat over coffee, the hosts discuss their unique show format which is live-streamed on multiple platforms. They delve into NFL playoffs, superstitions, and group chats among NFL running backs. The conversation shifts to the resurgence of the running game in football and its implications. They talk about generational influences in sports, represented by a player with 'Sonic the Hedgehog' themed cleats. Transitioning to architectural themes, the hosts discuss sketching, process drawings, and design explorations, using a new thematic approach inspired by books from their shelves. They explore sketches of both pets and architectural concepts, emphasizing the importance of process and conversation in both education and practice. The episode wraps up with a discussion on the educational approaches in design studios, highlighting the value of sketching and talking through ideas.

00:00 Welcome to the Show
00:58 NFL Playoffs and Super Bowl Talk
03:41 Running Backs and the Evolution of the Game
07:59 Coffee Talk: Favorite Brews and Brewing Methods
12:45 Sketching and Pet Companions
19:56 Architectural Inspirations and Sketching Techniques
26:25 Teaching Architecture: Process and Provocation
41:30 Concluding Thoughts

Transcript

0:32

Hey, Jamie. Welcome to the show.

Jamie: 0:35

Yeah. Well, welcome. Welcome. Not just welcome to the show. Welcome to The Only, as far as we know. And of course, we're experts on this. The only architecture themed podcast that also is really just a chat over coffee that is live streamed

Kurt Neiswender: 0:56

on Twitter and YouTube on Twitch. At the moment, I mean, at the moment, I mean, there may be

Jamie: 1:01

more. Jamie takes the guardrails

Kurt Neiswender: 1:03

off. We could start live streaming everywhere. All kinds. Well, not everywhere, per se. No. So, so

Jamie: 1:09

expand the group chat.

Kurt Neiswender: 1:11

Yeah. So in the group chat, speaking of group chats. And, and I can't believe I know something that you don't know in any arena you know, whether it's sports, academia, architecture, history, or coffee.

Jamie: 1:28

I do like the trivia, folks.

Kurt Neiswender: 1:30

But I did, I did learn something that Jamie doesn't know, which is, so we, we, we're kind of casually warming up talking about the playoffs in the NFL and the Super Bowl and, you know. I was kind of saying, oh, you know, the eagles made it. Saquon Barkley, fantastic running back. You shout out

Jamie: 1:52

our friend Jeff, you know, who's a friend of both of ours. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kurt Neiswender: 1:56

An eagle, eagle fan, I should say, you know, but a born and, you know, born and raised Philadelphian. Did you watch the game? Which one?

Jamie: 2:06

Start to finish, like both games?

Kurt Neiswender: 2:08

I watched the Eagle game, which was a blowout and unfortunately, I did not have access to Paramount Plus. I had to do the old stat tracker kind of watch. Yeah. And It's like an old school radio, folks. The Bills game, yeah, yeah. I was a little mad, but also, you know, you gotta You know, when at home, you know, you got to balance your sports consumption, you know, another, but all I'll just

Jamie: 2:37

say is that in that Eagles game, like if you, if you got to see the pregame and, or like the, the, from start to finish that damn bald Eagle. Like look friggin locked in like in a way that that poor animal soaring around the stadium Like when it came back to its handler, I don't know what a handler for a bald eagle is. We'll look that up but Like, you know, I just saw that whole sequence and I was like I I think everybody else is going to have trouble tonight.

Kurt Neiswender: 3:11

Well, yeah, they definitely came out, came out guns blazing. His level of

Jamie: 3:15

superstition and weird fandom. Like I do know, but yeah,

Kurt Neiswender: 3:21

anyhow. Well, you know, superstition wise, you know, I, I did, I did bump into some neighbors, local, you know, a lot of neighbors over at our local watering hole. And I said, okay, who, who were their socks inside out? Who were, you know, who messed up? You know, who blew the superstition because when the lions lost to the commanders, which everyone thought they were going to have this easy road to the to the super bowl. And then I'm like, okay, so who did it? Whose fault is it? Superstition wise. Yeah. So, so there you have it. I want to, I don't want to talk about. No, no, we're going to, we're going to,

Jamie: 4:02

we're just going to skip over that part of the story. Both of us did have other predictions, but group chats, group chats,

Kurt Neiswender: 4:08

that the thing that Jamie didn't know is that Derek Henry from the Ravens. I'm not sure if they pulled Jameer Gibbs in, but basically all the guys that are the core running back leaders of the NFL have a group chat and they said, we want to raise the profile of what a running back is for the NFL. And that's why this year has been so exciting.

Jamie: 4:34

I think in the running game, it really has. I mean, you know, for someone who just loves the sports as you do too you know, there was, there was definitely this sort of fall off in several years where, you know, the running game and, and running backs in general usage,

Kurt Neiswender: 4:54

the usage, the plate, the, the plays that, you know, it would be these little. Don't think

Jamie: 5:02

half ass passes and like, I mean, which are sort of the fact that they're doing the half ass passes now that like, you know, it's really helping the patent, you know, passing the passing stats, but they're doing that because the running backs have elevated to this other level where it's like, Oh, well we want a piece of that too. And it's, it's opened the playbook in a way that's super refreshing.

Kurt Neiswender: 5:26

Yeah. It's been a lot more exciting to watch for sure.

Jamie: 5:30

Well, and it also means that, you know, I think just from a, you know, you know, fan of the game, right. Is that. Now you don't have to have kind of one offensive formula or one defensive formula to, you know, model your whole team or build your whole team around, you know, now with, you know, the resurgence of the running back and, and these guys are playing out of their mind. I mean, like Henry, you know, that's a all over season. Saquon some same thing. You know, I mean, a couple quarterbacks who have had some MVP type seasons too, but, but, but just the two of them alone, I mean, you know, the, the stuff that they're doing on the field and how it's contributing to, you know, the overall success of their franchises and their teams this year is just, I mean, you, you can't. You can't underestimate the impact that they've had as players. And, and, and that that hasn't happened for several years, you know, for, for most, for most of those teams at that kind of level. So cheers to that goodness.

Kurt Neiswender: 6:44

Yeah, it's been, it's been a lot more fun for sure. And, you know, pop culture wise, and let's say, Hmm, what's the word? Generationally you know, the fact that, that Jamir Gibbs aligned with the nickname Sonic from Sonic the Hedgehog, the video game just shows how old we are and how, how the, the culture of the younger players. It's sort of starting to shine through in, in in their own, in their own way. And it's, it's pretty cool. So, and then now, you know, you have all kinds of things like, you know, back in the day, they didn't cater uniforms or shoes and things that, you know, but he even had like a couple of games. He had cleats that looked like Sonics shoes. I don't know if you noticed that. It's pretty sweet. Which were red, right? I mean, lines are Honolulu blue and, and he had these red shoes with the, the, the buckle and all that stuff.

Jamie: 7:44

Honolulu even folks. Honolulu blue. That's the

Kurt Neiswender: 7:48

lion's color. Curtis pulling all the

Jamie: 7:51

deep cuts for those who aren't, who don't use their hands as a map. But, you know, the

Kurt Neiswender: 8:00

Yeah, the lines. Anywho, we don't need to dwell on that because, you know, that's still, still a thing. But, you know, we, we, we move on, but we move

Jamie: 8:09

on. There is an episode to be had folks. Yes, this is 171 and we're all caught up and we're excited. We've got lots of good ideas. Lots of good content coming.

Kurt Neiswender: 8:20

Yep. Yep. And we got, you know, friends traveling into town and speaking engagements and all that, as Jamie was trying to say. In both, in both states,

Jamie: 8:30

even. Both states, even. So,

Kurt Neiswender: 8:32

so what are you drinking these days then, Mr. Jamie?

Jamie: 8:36

Well, I, in my efforts to try and diversify, like the different coffees that I, you know, sort of, you get in a rut, folks, sometimes you forget. the ones that you like. And so I went back to little city and, and got Congress Avenue, which I don't know if Kurt's had Congress. You've had the grackle. The Congress Avenue is a little bit more of a, like a. A smooth kind of light medium roast from them, a little more chocolatey notes than anything. And so I, I, I'm, I have, I have purposely bought an extra, so I'm like developing a slow moving care package.

Kurt Neiswender: 9:22

Oh, thanks. Hint noted. Point taken. The and for me, oddly enough, the, The, when we went back to Dale's, which is our local kind of more organic grocer you know, single only, you know, it's not a non chain. I don't know, really know what to call them, you know, but a local grocer and Dale Dale's and they had they're in their bulk coffee bean selection. They had a medium roast. You know, I don't have the bag in front of me, so I can't remember the name, but it's, it's a medium, a light medium that also has a very chocolatey scent. Like I can pick it up in my nose and taste it. It was quite nice. I might have to get you some, I'll remember the name. I have it written on the bag. I just don't have it in front of my face. But yeah, it's it's good. It's, it's pretty good. I, did I, did I mention I'm struggling? I got an Aeropress. Are you familiar with Aeropress?

Jamie: 10:19

Yes, yeah. Coffee

Kurt Neiswender: 10:21

brewing or coffee making. So I, I put on my Christmas wish list and I got one with the travel mug and I lost a part. I've already lost a part. I like never lose anything of my stuff. The thing, especially the things I cherish like coffee. And I lost this. I think I, I think I, I think I accidentally threw it away because in order to make another cup of coffee, you have to take the filter cover off and then push the plunger all the way through and then pops the filter out. So the, I, I think I might've just dropped the filter cover right into the trash can because I don't have it. So thankfully, that's like,

Jamie: 11:14

that's, that's, that's really dramatic.

Kurt Neiswender: 11:18

It is sad. I mean, it's not even been a month. So I'm limping along. Like, I still have my French press. Which is great. The AeroPress. But you had the new toy. You were excited. It's my new thing. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and I have this one. I was, I was about to prepare another, you know, on a different day. And I have the paper filter that it came with. Like, it came with the little pack. And I went to assemble the whole thing, and I didn't have the filter cover, and I'm like, oh, asking my wife, asking the dog, asking anybody in earshot, and nobody's seen it. And so then the realization sets in and and so this filter is sitting out on the counter waiting to be as a reminder to go back to the website and luckily, you know, it's a company that's, I think, um. Founded by an engineer. So they have replacement parts. They know. Smartly. Yeah. They

Jamie: 12:26

know, they know. Yeah. So that's the, they might throw some shade and say, You've only had it a month. That's

Kurt Neiswender: 12:36

a little, that's a little fast.

Jamie: 12:39

It's a little fast, but we got you covered. Yeah,

Kurt Neiswender: 12:42

thankfully. I mean, what I like about it is I don't have to buy the whole thing again. Yes. That's that annoys me the worst. But anyway, that's a whole other can of worms. So anyway, so yes I have a very similarly flavored coffee nice for sure.

Jamie: 13:02

Yeah. Well, I think I think folks we are on more of the same wavelength we've been kind of not diverge, not diverging, but you know, 2025 converging. Yeah, we're converging. Big things to come. Speaking of which,

Kurt Neiswender: 13:18

Well, yeah, I think it's a good time to talk about some, some recent sketches. So that's what we've got going here.

Jamie: 13:25

So on the right, we have a sketch from this, that's from this last weekend. It was a birthday weekend folks the lady that sometimes you hear the shaky shaky in the background, Miss Tink, Tinkerbell herself in the Eames lounger, her favorite chair. She turned 14 this weekend, so, and of course had to draw a portrait.

Kurt Neiswender: 13:52

What a nice sketch though. In the Eames lounge chair, no less.

Jamie: 13:57

Oh yeah, with her blankie, one of her blankies, she's got two. You

Kurt Neiswender: 14:01

know, I mean, I know we've been friends a long time, but, you know, our dogs are people too, and, you know, they deserve to live, live life in luxury, in good mid century furniture, you know, and, and so, shouldn't be, it's not too precious of an object. Oh god, no. That Tinkerbell. Lady Tinkerbell can't, can't enjoy a little comforting sit.

Jamie: 14:31

You're not talking about a museum. This is your house. Just,

Kurt Neiswender: 14:34

just like, yeah, just like the owner. It's a great sketch though. I mean, you know, to think Tink's a Puggle? No, right. Pugget. Pugget. Yeah. Which is a pug. What's the other? Italian Greyhound.

Jamie: 14:49

Italian Greyhound.

Kurt Neiswender: 14:51

Puget. Puget. The Puget, if you are in the North, and a Puget if you are in the South. But she's black fur, so the black ink of the, the pilot pen works well with the white face. And then And sort of the curly ears. The face wasn't always

Jamie: 15:12

white folks. Like that's the gray and aging. That's the 14. That's the,

Kurt Neiswender: 15:18

that's the, the stately age of 14. Yeah. But yeah, we see, we see Tink and sometimes she tries to show her face. If she needs to, but it's kind of fun. Have you ever thought about how many sketches of Tinkerbell you've made? Oh, gosh, we've seen many. That's maybe we haven't, we've never had, I'm sure we haven't put all on the podcast, but in saying our preparations, right, you know, if they pop up on Instagram, you know, there's been any,

Jamie: 15:51

it's a great question. And it's funny because like around her birthday. And around the holidays or even my own birthday or EM'S birthday, like, like there's always there. That's anybody's

Kurt Neiswender: 16:02

birthday.

Jamie: 16:03

Anybody. Okay. So I draw her a lot is basically the answer.

Kurt Neiswender: 16:06

Nostalgia,

Jamie: 16:07

she's a princess and and she just, you know, she's great because, you know, she is totally the lap dog. She does like to pose. She, you know, she understands the camera. So it's, you know, and, and the posing for, for a portrait like this is one where like, if she's in her favorite spot, I can basically do like an in situ. Sketch because she's not going, she's not going anywhere. She's like, yeah, she's like, dad, you're, you're in your spot. Like you, you seem to be doing your thing where you don't move around a lot. And I can just be right here and keep an eye on things.

Kurt Neiswender: 16:48

Well, does she like, does she like to be in. A human lap, like your lap. Or she's a bit more of a, like, let's share space. But we don't have to be on top of each other.

Jamie: 17:02

Both of them, both the cat and the dog want to be in the shared space kind of vibe. Tink also wants to be touching. But not necessarily like, I need to sit on you. like all over your, in your business, but like as long as like if you, if she can do a heavy lean,

Kurt Neiswender: 17:21

you know, on

Jamie: 17:22

your leg or your side, you know, there's a psychology to that. Yeah, she's, she's good, you know, and if it happens to involve like one of her favorite blankets, there's, there's a heaven component to this. So, I

Kurt Neiswender: 17:35

mean, I, you know, my point is the You know, we've had many dogs together, my wife and I and some are will want the first one we've had always had to be in Danielle's lap. I mean, I, I would occasionally get some love, but had to be in the lap. Second dog. He was like the lean guy. Like he liked to lean. Current Dog is more like a nearby. I don't need Like

Jamie: 18:04

I got an eye on you. Yeah.

Kurt Neiswender: 18:06

People probably think we're crazy for going into this level of detail on you know, pet companionship. But it's the dynamic. Which is why, you know, we wind up memorializing them in a sketch or two.

Jamie: 18:22

Absolutely.

Kurt Neiswender: 18:22

And it's, it's part of life, you know, fixtures,

Jamie: 18:25

I mean, as you say, like, you know, if you, you know, and I think, so we've talked about themes, we're going to talk about a theme here in a moment with the next sketch, but even with, with our, with our furry friends, so Zuko, like my current cat he also wants to be like, he's, he is very much my cat. And wants to know where I am. He also wants to know where Tink is cause he, he loves Tinkerbell.

Kurt Neiswender: 18:54

Oh,

Jamie: 18:55

but is it

Kurt Neiswender: 18:56

reciprocal?

Jamie: 18:58

Not as much. So, you know, Tink also had the benefit of Peter Pan. So Tinkerbell, like if you were going to name a dog, Tinkerbell, there's gotta be a story. And so Tinkerbell is the dog that. Peter Pan was able to raise. So I had a cat named Peter Pan. And Petey was great. Very much like Zuko, wanted to know where everybody was, and take care of things, and all that stuff. But Petey also, Petey was the one who, like you say with, you know, your dog who wanted to sit. And D's lap all the time. PD wanted to be like, like in my lap all the time or like next to my head when I'm sleeping or next to me or touching me or whatever. But when we got Tinkerbell, PD also wanted to be like, like I got sort of replaced by Tinkerbell in that and so it was sort of this, like PD would basically sort of. You know, check on me, M, and Tink. And, you know, sort of in a rotation. So Tinkerbell was like Petey's baby. So, which is super sweet. But yeah, I, I, yeah, we, we, we went down a, we went down a road, but it's, it's, like you said, it's, it's very important and very good. So, yeah,

Kurt Neiswender: 20:21

so thematically, I mean, so the next sketch that we, we paired with, with Tinkerbell is not about a dog. I mean, I suppose 1 connection is chronological because they're dated near the same, but. What do you, what do you have to say? You know, it's, it's I see you've got the book of the Havana project which subtitles with co op Himmelblau, Morphosis, Ericka and Moss. Is it Carme, Carme Pinos, Levious Woods, and C P P N, which I'm not familiar with them, but you've got a superstar cast of architect characters on the cover of this book. And I, somehow, I'm not familiar with this book. So, so you pulled some sketches, or you created some sketches, I assume, pulled from the book. So where'd this come from, I suppose, and what's your, what's your angle here?

Jamie: 21:21

So my angle, thank you for asking, my angle is I was trying to come up with a new theme that I've not tried before. You know, new year, new theme. And the new theme is going to be like, As architects, right? And as sort of artists and, you know, people who love history and culture and all that kind of stuff is, and having the tangibility of it, like having the artifact or the book in your hand. Kurt had shared with me, and this is what actually sort of prompted this, Kurt had shared with me a book that he had gotten at, at, over the holidays and was excited. And and it made me think about books that are on my bookshelf. That I'm excited about and because again, as artists, architects, we will periodically pull books randomly off the shelf that we know are there. We know where they are on the bookshelf. I am not that person who's got them all alphabetical or whatever, you know, that's just not it. So you go and seek that book out. And, and it's because there's something in there that you remember, and then as you're flipping through it, you're kind of getting inspired. And so I thought, you know, this early part of the year, I'm going to start pulling out books as a theme for the work that, that I'm going to be doing in the sketchbook. And so this was that first one of that. So this is the Havana project. And as Kurt said, there's sort of a who's who of architects. That were, this is sort of a paper architecture study and it's, it's a fascinating book. And, you know, kind of a, a symposium of sorts that, that occurred in Cuba and out of it. You know, it was sort of me kind of reconnecting a little bit with the architects that are in it, but also sort of levious woods and So that's that's where some of the the impulse was to pull this one off the shelf first, you know per se

Kurt Neiswender: 23:30

so was there a particular sketch? style or Technique that you were gonna apply as part of the new year Exploration or is it more about? Just kind of dusting off a book that you've you know It's got the gems inside and you need to you just kind of unearth them for a little while

Jamie: 23:54

It's a great question. And I think I think it's more about just sort of dusting off the book, you know, and and letting that letting that be the the impulse to where the sketch goes I, I, I say that this one is the one that sort of, you know, crystallized it for me as a kind of a movement in a moment that I'm, I'm going to experiment with over the holidays, I had pulled some books that my uncle had given me when I was in college about Canadian architects off the shelf and, and that had inspired some other things, but that was more about me thinking about home and Montreal and, and, and whatnot. Yeah. This isn't necessarily connected to that, even though it's something that I do from time to time. But this book is one that I'm just so glad that I have it. I mean, and it's got this really great, I mean, this is the thing that you can't get from a digital copy of things, right? Is from the physical copy and you can see it there in the image is there's this hand drawn image of Cuba, of Havana, and it's a fold out. So in the, in the book, only one fold out in the whole entire book. And, and it's a fold out image. And because I think what was, what was interesting about the studies that all these architects were doing was they were, they were finding fascinating parts of the city for them. And then reacting to it in Leibniz's case it was about the relationship to the water and how the kind of seawall kind of resilience ideas that we now see decades and decades later, he's experimenting with in a sketch. And, and then what does that do to the fabric of the city, you know, and so that sort of sketch quality and kind of imagination I think is always an entry point for me as a, as a, as an architect than as an artist. And so the sketches that I'm doing have nothing to do with Cuba, have nothing to do with Havana. But more about sort of, I think, you know, watching that exploration of drawing and then trying to apply it to things that I'm currently working on as, you know, design problems and, and how I, what I found fascinating both in his work as well as a couple of the others in the book is this idea of sort of, you know, as you're studying a place, you're also kind of creating these vignettes You know, kind of little snapshot, snapshot the town that you're going to focus on and kind of study and understand and then sort of apply your knowledge to. And so that's where you're sort of seeing evolve a bit in the sketchbook is this idea of a street scene, a vignette. You know, plan, section elevation perspective all at once in a series of different images and sort of evolving an idea or series of ideas around it.

Kurt Neiswender: 26:58

Well, it's actually kind of fun, fun timing because of the studio than teaching right now. This is a 2nd year studio and we've, we've rebuilt a lot of the assignments for the semester in a much more abstract. manner. I say we, but it's mostly been the coordinator Martin. And, and we're, we're along for the ride, which is the fun part. And but the, the, the premise is a lot about the, the notion of the vignette as a way to capture the essence and the. The portray the, the intent that is in the design of the, you know, the students design intent for for how they want people to experience the spaces as simple as that. I mean, it sounds it. Well, it's it sounds easy in easier said than done. I mean, you know, developing complex sequence of space or movement is no easy task, but the vignette. Or that sort of vignette perspective sketch is there to sort of highlight a particular concept or notion in the design intent. And and I try, like, like, what you've done here is I tell my students, I was like, this is the fun part, right? Like, you want to trade. You want to trade jobs for a day? Cause you want to answer all the contractor RFIs that I have right now, cause I'd much rather be doing what you're doing, even though they kind of look at, they scratch their head a little bit and they're kind of looking at the assignment, like where to begin. Right. I mean, that's, it's, it's one of those things that like, as we go through. With experience, you come back to these things and, and you think about the, the fun that can be had by not having too many guardrails or constraints and, and, and sort of defining a few assets in, into a program, right? Like what you're doing is maybe picking out a couple of things that you want to be the asset or the generator of the concept and then. Allowing the sketches to sort of traverse or test out various compositional arrangements that that might speak to to that. Right. And so I'm trying, I'm trying to portray to the students. It's like, hey we still do this. Right. You know,

Jamie: 29:35

well, and after so many

Kurt Neiswender: 29:37

years, you know, you're in 2nd year and I've. Long been away from second year, but you know, these are the, this is the essence of architecture.

Jamie: 29:46

Well, and it's funny the way you sort of started to say that too, is that, you know, you want to trade places and then they sort of have this, this moment of, I'm not sure where to go. Like, I'm not sure where to start. And, and that's not, and that's not, that's not, you know, that's not housed in, in experience or in youth. That's, that's, that's everybody. And so I think what, what I chose to do in this particular case, and hopefully this series of sort of pulling a book off the shelf to kind of inspire myself will, will allow me to kind of explore. And that's sort of the intention with it is I have some preconceived memories of what that book I'm excited about in flipping through and sort of seeing. And there's a repository of that sort of Rolodex of thoughts in my mind. And as I go back to the books on my shelf, I'm seeking out a particular project as an entry point. But that may, that's more than likely not where I'm going to land. There's something else that I'm going to, I'm going to gravitate towards now, because that's my memory of it. And now I'm somewhere else. And so what was, what happened here is as I'm sort of flipping through and re you know, realizing not just the work of Leibius, but all the work of the other architects is that there's sort of this stylistic impulse of how to. you know, render thoughts and in sort of different sort of sketch forms and, and kind of why I like Leibniz's drawings, you know, just, you know, why they resonate with me. But in the sketch, what's interesting is I'm sort of stuck with this premise of the, the, What you're viewing and, and where you are as a viewer and trying to, to create that dynamic relationship between those two things and then the layers of space in between it. So what you see on the left of the sketch is sort of the, the first blush. Okay, I'm the viewer and you can see that sort of scale person in there on the street looking into the image of the storefront or the, or the space sort of think of. Like a PS1, you know, kind of New York city. You're looking into the storefront and you're looking into the exhibit and, and it's. It's super scaled. It's something that's, that's out of scale with you as the viewer. Okay, well what does that mean in plan? Okay, where are those objects? So then I flip to plan and I try and figure out where those objects are. And then as I, as I start to look at that and go, well that's not really giving me everything that I want. I kind of go back to the vignette and I'm looking at it more purely as elevation and section. And that leads me from the first page to the second page. And now I'm like, now I'm trying to figure out how do I layer space so that I know where I am as the viewer and I know where these objects are, this sort of environment that I'm designing or creating is, is there, are there moves that I can do as layers, literal layers of space between those two things, those events and, and that's, that's really what this is, is exploration of that concept and. Through a variety of sketches, and then by the end, like that last sketch on the right, is honestly, plan, section, elevation, all at the same time, you know, where, you know, you're looking, you're looking down at it, and it could be a plan of layered spaces with those sort of dark strokes that are defining it, and, but it also could be an elevation, You know, of, of the spaces you're looking into it or, or as a section where you're sort of literally layering those spaces you know, in, you know, in the context of scale

34:00

and

Jamie: 34:00

you're, you know, providing some scale to those objects. So it's, and again, not with a, a result. This is, this is a process drawing and intended to be one.

Kurt Neiswender: 34:14

But yeah, no, that's exactly what I was trying to convey to the students. Is it like, don't worry about polish now. This is day one of four weeks. Like just, you know, populate your, your drawings with ideas and let's talk about the ideas. You don't have to have resolved every single thing, right? And so what you've generated here are just the snapshots of ideas and, and how they could then be, you know, the next step is, you know, evolution, or if you deploy to, you know, 2 or 3 of them into a scheme that starts to communicate, you know, more about. A sequence of spaces, a cluster of spaces programmatically, then, then individual components, right? And so, so it's a, it's kind of funny how so we just launched this this week, and I even told some of the students is like, you know, I might even. Do this myself because it sounds like a lot of fun. They don't necessarily know. I mean, maybe if we're listening now that they'll know that this is the first, first ish, I mean, when we say it's very loaded term, when we say it's the first time we've done this assignment, it's, it's the first. Version of an evolution of an assignment, but it's, it's not the first time this conversation has happened, right? In a, in a design studio for second year.

Jamie: 35:49

Yeah, I mean, principles of it. Yeah, the principles of of the exercise are always there and, and, and maybe even the end result of sort of what the product might end up looking like, or kind of what the targets for that product might be. Yeah, the, the formulation of that, the process piece kind of or the provocation, maybe, maybe let's just call it what it is, right? It's a provocation, right? The provocation is different. And I think that that's the thing that makes it fresh for the, the educator you know, who's sort of setting the stage, but also for the studio itself. So it's that in and of itself is the experiment. Yeah, it's, I, I think that the reminder of, of, of process, both for student and professor. in that design studio is gosh, why can't we just say it? Like that's, that's just, it's so important. And, and it's, and it's because these things aren't they're not written in stone. You know, they're not a NAB criteria that's like, you know, comes, comes with a series of diagrams and exercises at the end of the, you know,

Kurt Neiswender: 37:07

well, some of it is some of it,

Jamie: 37:10

some of it winds up getting, if you're on that committee, maybe it looks like that.

Kurt Neiswender: 37:14

Well, you have to, well, that's a whole other. A can a can of worms as far as the accreditation items, but yeah, no, you're right. You're right on. And yeah, I like the idea of the provocation because yeah, those, those the prompts of a provocation can vary the process is, is something that can be. Wouldn't say across the board similar, but for each designer kind of develop the process in their own way. Obviously, there's certain conventional things we try and teach them, but then adapting those to get there. So yeah, so maybe that's the, that's the exercise. I'm not necessarily doing it in competition, but more of a way to sort of build on what we've talked about here and see if there's a way to, I mean, whether it's formalized in the sketchbook as you put or you've created. Or me and a pen and trace paper in studio. I wind up tearing off and giving it to the student. I don't keep it to myself. I just hand over my sketches. But yeah, I might snap a few pics next time in class. Yeah, showing them through my own hand, you know, the way to start to think about these things. So luckily, you know, we do have I wouldn't say luckily anyway they do, they're very digital capable, but also have interest in pursuing, you know, sketching you know, there was a bit of time in the past 5 years. That you, you, you kind of had a little more digital lean and a little lean away from, from hand. But I think we're starting to see a little balance coming back. Well, at, at, at the end of the day,

Jamie: 39:07

regardless of the, you know, the tool and apparatus that you're doing it. What you're describing about sort of, you know, sketching and tearing off and handing it to the students saying, you know, here's some things to think about, or this is a great conversation. Here's my visual notes from that conversation for you. That's a superpower that will always remain a superpower of our education and our practice. Whether we like it or not. You know, we're all human beings. And that conversation with folks where we pull out a pen or, or get on our tablet or whatever and draw something, you know, and, and not just draw something, but as we've said on this podcast before, draw something and be able to talk about it while you're drawing, you know, that's the whole thing. Cause I've, I've sat with students, I've sat with the professionals who will, I'll sketch something up for you and you're like, okay. You know, and it's like waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting. Like it's like loading, loading, loading, loading. Well, I, I,

Kurt Neiswender: 40:14

I I, I totally get that.'cause the, yeah, attention span gets a lot shorter, so you gotta talk through the whole

Jamie: 40:21

Yeah. I mean, regardless of your generation folks, I mean, our attention span, like even the ones of us that are the olds, you know, like, you know, we, we live through the dial up age and, you know, we understand what that is to, you know, download and strip that. You know, piece of music off a Napster or wherever you know, we, we get it. And so I don't want to wait for somebody to sketch in front of me when I can sketch it maybe as fast or faster than them. I want to hear them sketch and talk because that sketching and talking is now we're having a conversation over process and I'm learning from them and I'm getting a perspective that they have about the thing we're talking about and vice versa. And so remember. It does. And, and at that point, sometimes those, and I will do it myself is like, I will apologize sometimes as I'm sketching in that moment and say, this is not my best sketch. And they're like, and if they know me, they're like, we know we'd like to sketch, you know, they could like, they sort of throw that aside because. As, because as long as I'm talking about what I'm drawing, the conversation is being pushed forward. And, and that, at that point, you realize the sketch is not sacred. The conversation is really what we're having. And, and, you know, and if we, if we all keep doing that and you keep doing that with your students, you know, we're all going to be in a better place.

Kurt Neiswender: 41:56

Yeah. There's hope for our, for the next generation, but yeah, that's fun. I, you know, I, I, I think I don't need to belabor it any longer, but I think the the, the, you know, the concept of process is, can be simple and complex and, and expandable, like adaptable and yeah, at the end of the day, you know, cause I, I bounced back and forth between a sophomore level and a senior level. And so, the, the techniques and approach in both really can be the same. Certain aspects then become a little bit higher level or further detail. But our approach doesn't have to be different. Just because you're in second year or fourth year, I guess is my, I guess that's where I'll leave it. So we'll, we'll see maybe next week there'll be a few sketches to describe to Jamie what we've been talking about in studio. So

Jamie: 43:00

exciting,

Kurt Neiswender: 43:01

exciting,

Jamie: 43:02

exciting.

Kurt Neiswender: 43:03

Thanks. We'll see. We'll see you later.