173 - From Selma to South By Southwest

175th Episode Celebration: Selma, South By Southwest, and Sketching Techniques

On this milestone 175th episode, hosts Kurt and Jamie celebrate their journey and delve into a warm discussion on coffee, moving stories about the Selma march, and reflections on 2020's Black Lives Matter murals. They highlight mixed media’s role in sketching, offering insights into the techniques of using the whole arm for genuine sketches. They conclude with a sneak peek into educational advancements using VR in architectural design.

00:00 Welcome to the Show!
00:53 Celebrating 175 Episodes
01:06 Coffee Talk
01:50 Podcast Setup Adventures
05:30 Spring Break and Travel
06:08 March Updates and Daylight Saving
08:23 South by Southwest Extravaganza
12:23 Alien Downtown Activation
13:27 Austin's Unique Vibe
14:43 South by Southwest Highlights
16:41 Transition to Sketches
17:20 Selma March and Black Lives Matter
28:21 Artistic Techniques and Reflections
32:31 VR in Architectural Education
34:31 Conclusion and Future Plans

Transcript

Kurt Neiswender: 0:32

Hey Jamie. This is the show.

Jamie: 0:35

Welcome. This is the show. Yes, welcome.

Kurt Neiswender: 0:38

Welcome to you. Welcome to our listeners and our watchers

Jamie: 0:45

because this is the only live streamed architecture and art and coffee podcast. And we're live streamed on YouTube and Twitch.

Kurt Neiswender: 0:57

Yeah. Plus plus, plus

Jamie: 0:59

plus, plus plus, plus plus. And then there's, and then there are, for your listening pleasure, you know, podcast episodes, like traditional podcast episodes. Yeah. We, we kind of, we try and fine tune it a little bit and and those, you know, now in our seventh season, you know, we're, we are way past 170 episodes, so check it out, leave a comment, enjoy it on your No worries. Streaming platform. Yep.

Kurt Neiswender: 1:25

1 75. I'm, I'm it, it's a nice number. It's a nice milestone. We've made it so, so thank you Jamie for, congrats. For, for Yeah. Congrats to you too. So what is in the mug then? Celebrating 1 75.

Jamie: 1:44

What would be the only kind of coffee you'd want to celebrate? 1 75 with?

Kurt Neiswender: 1:50

Probably the coffee sketch podcast, coffee. You are correct, sir. You know, that's what's in my mug too. Yeah. Serendipity. Yeah. I went, I went, I think that's what it's called.

Jamie: 2:02

I went there to, I went there today. You know, have been I, I brewed a very, very, like ground. The beans brewed a very, very big pot. So a deliberate, a deliberate, deliberate, intense. And then, and then went run the jewels on the mug. So

Kurt Neiswender: 2:18

nice. I like the, that's a good one. I I didn't, I misplaced my mug. I moved. If you can't see my background for those listening, they don't know. But yeah, every

Jamie: 2:31

episode folks, it's like, I mean, the next one he's gonna be like on the roof. Is that window out there? He is gonna be like crawling out the window and like, that'd be something on his, like his GoPro.

Kurt Neiswender: 2:44

I had thought about doing some, yeah. Remote.

Jamie: 2:49

How, how far

Kurt Neiswender: 2:50

away

Jamie: 2:50

can I get? This is Kurt down by the river in his van. This is,

Kurt Neiswender: 2:53

that's why I have headphones that have a, a, a cord attached. I can't get too far away, but court is a

Jamie: 3:01

motivational speaker. Yep.

Kurt Neiswender: 3:03

Oh. Anyway, you know, well, I know I jumped right into the coffee, so I'm glad you're drinking some of the, the, the rootless coffee. Coffee'cause I am too. And although mug is somewhere, but yeah.

Jamie: 3:21

cause you've moved all the furniture again. Like I flipped,

Kurt Neiswender: 3:24

I, I flipped. It literally flipped the script over here, unfortunately. Yeah. I don't I'm not in love with the, the angle yet. We gotta, we're gotta keep working on it. But, you know,

Jamie: 3:34

you're running outta room to change the angle again. Yeah. There's not many

Kurt Neiswender: 3:39

more options.

Jamie: 3:40

Yeah. But you know, it's like a, it's like a, it's like a really slow, like, you know, those progressive dinners. You know, where you like move from house to house and like you, you, you're going up and down the street. I guess they got popular in Covid. You know, people would just sort of meet mm-hmm. In the driveway or on the sidewalk.

Kurt Neiswender: 3:58

Mm-hmm.

Jamie: 3:59

Kurt is doing that with the podcast and Progressive, the live stream. Yeah. Progressive podcast. We're moving around his house and he's just setting up in different locations.

Kurt Neiswender: 4:10

Yeah. Well, there's only a few more rooms.

Jamie: 4:13

You also moved, you also moved during the podcast too. So we've been in two different houses too. So Yeah, there is that. Yeah.

Kurt Neiswender: 4:19

Yeah. Which is why, which is why lately it's kind of a little tricky to find a, a spot. So I think we're closer. You know, you could see my neighbor's house. We could do like

Jamie: 4:30

a vote. We could do like an online poll poll,

Kurt Neiswender: 4:33

which, which. Which scene is your favorite scene? So it's like, it's like going to the eye doctor. Number one, left. Number two. Yeah. Number three, number four. I have to do that soon. Actually. Not that everybody really wants to know what's gonna happen with my eyes, but it's like I don't wear glasses.'cause they would be, they're very high prescription, high strength. So I work, I still pull off the contacts. At some point, I'm gonna, they don't make contact strong enough for my failing vision.

Jamie: 5:10

At some point we get to the point of no return.

Kurt Neiswender: 5:12

Age, Jamie, age,

Jamie: 5:14

age, age, age.

Kurt Neiswender: 5:15

Well, this, this, this intro is taking a turn. So it's gotten sad all of a sudden. There was something, well, we, we dove right into coffee. We didn't really talk a lot about the goings on. I mean, our sketch is going to get a little serious. It is gonna get super serious. I, I'll just

Jamie: 5:35

say that in the green room there was talk of gelato. Yeah. So that. If you're curious, go check out the live stream. Yeah, we might've even talked about Jamie's favorite building. Maybe arguably Kurt's too. I'm not sure. But it's close. It's high up on the list. Definitely mine.

Kurt Neiswender: 5:54

Yeah.

Jamie: 5:54

And

Kurt Neiswender: 5:54

and if you know, you know,'cause if you're, yeah, if you're paying attention to the sketches, you would know. You would know.

Jamie: 6:02

Yeah.

Kurt Neiswender: 6:02

And yeah, we have some some faculty and students. Taking advantage of spring break in a foreign land, which Jamie and I are I guess living vicariously through the photography is, is what we'll say. We'll leave it there.'cause I don't wanna give away the city. No. And you know, but we, we'll we, we will be talking about it once, once they come back. If they come back,

Jamie: 6:27

maybe a little fear of missing out, but it's okay. Yeah, we're good. We're, you know, we, we we're, we're, we're okay. We're okay. We're okay. We checked in. We're okay. So,

Kurt Neiswender: 6:38

yep. All's well on this side. Yeah. It,

Jamie: 6:40

it is March now.

Kurt Neiswender: 6:43

Yeah. Daylight saving has just, we've just passed daylight saving. What a mess that is. Which, I mean, I'm not arguing'cause at the moment it's still light outside. Mm-hmm. Is this the one that we're supposed to stay at or is it the other hour?

Jamie: 7:05

Oh gosh, I really don't know that. That's, that's a another number I don't remember.

Kurt Neiswender: 7:10

Yeah, that's,

Jamie: 7:12

and it's not gonna happen. I mean, it's

Kurt Neiswender: 7:13

above my pay grade as they say. I mean,

Jamie: 7:16

yeah. I mean, we, it's just not gonna happen. I mean. It's not gonna happen in the next couple years, that's for sure. No, because, you know, we're, yeah, but that wouldn't be efficient. I don't think so. But yeah, it's March. And there was you know, I mean it's, we just finished, you know, black History Month and. And now we're into Women's history month. And the, gosh, my cat is just sort of just decided that he wants to be as close today as he wants to be destroy.

Kurt Neiswender: 7:57

I haven't seen any.

Jamie: 8:00

I know he's, he's super sweet. But he's very clingy today. I, I think it's just, there's, he's been talking a lot. He's purring really loud, so it's, I

Kurt Neiswender: 8:10

I'm not picking it up.

Jamie: 8:11

So that's, well that's, I mean, that's, that's good for, for the listeners. It's good, you know for me, maybe a little distracting'cause he is super sweet. But it's like almost like he's trying to figure out is there another microphone that I can just purr in? He's like, like sniffing around.

Kurt Neiswender: 8:28

That's the, that's Jamie's side hustle. Yeah. The A SMR Zuko Zuko Edition.

Jamie: 8:36

Yeah, the Zuko Edition. So it's like, it's like the Criterion Collection. You know, you just, you get, it's a money moneymaker. You get in the van and then you pick out your four or five favorite movies. Tell everybody why you're super special. They are. Speaking of popular culture, like let's ground ourselves in reality. It is south by Southwest, Kurt.

Kurt Neiswender: 8:58

Oh, is it that time? It is that time. Is it your cat moving your camera? Oh

Jamie: 9:03

gosh, yeah. Yeah. That's him. That's totally him. Yeah.

Kurt Neiswender: 9:08

That's south. South by time. Right, so that means you hate being on the freeway or the roads, right? Yeah,

Jamie: 9:14

basically, yeah. Life.

Kurt Neiswender: 9:15

Life is a little tougher.

Jamie: 9:17

Well, I mean, it's not, hate, hate is such a strong word. Oh, okay. I mean, it's, it's more of acknowledging it is that time of year. Right. I mean, because I don't know, I, I, I was talking to some folks earlier today and it's like, I am generally pretty optimistic about most things in the world. Like that's just, I like. My worldview, like, I like to be very optimistic and I, I, you know, I say that and people are like, what Jamie? What? You know, you're very angsty. You know, and which I am. I mean, I'm Gen X, like that's just, that's, that's just built in, that's just hardwired, right?

Kurt Neiswender: 9:56

Yep. Yep.

Jamie: 9:57

But I am that half, half full, like I am the glass half full. I mean, that is the way I like to approach the world. I am also very realistic though, so there's that, you know, you're tempering it. I say all that to say that South by Southwest, to me is pandemonium. Like it is, like it is a crazy thing for any city to take on, you know, annually in the heart of their downtown. It's, it's definitely different now. It's like, but it's

Kurt Neiswender: 10:26

the same city every year.

Jamie: 10:28

Every year. Like you, you know, you're talking tens of thousands of people. Maybe you know more who all want to be in the same spot, like for about a week and a half. And, and it's also, you, you have the level of sort of celebrity and tech and Yeah. Popular culture and you know, whatever's trending, you know, it's things in media. I mean,'cause it's not just for those who don't know South By is. South by Southwest with, there's the music festival. You know, there's the musical acts that everybody sort of has come to know and appreciate, but that's not all of it. There's, there's also a South by film, so there's movies that premiere. So we can't just have acts that are coming from all over the world to play music in venues that sometimes aren't even a venue the rest of the year. But we also have movie premieres, like in the heart of downtown. So you have red carpet things like daily, because it's not just like one movie premiere, it's multiple movie premieres. Then you have panels with all those people. So there's, that's the whole film thing. Then you also have South by Southwest Education and Tech, so there's a whole tech conference that's also going on. So the the, like Twitter dropped at South by, right in the way back, right? Mm-hmm. So, yeah, it's, I mean, it's a lot like I, I mean, I was in downtown yesterday and it like, roads are closed. And is

Kurt Neiswender: 12:06

it, is it like free? Oh God no. No. So you gotta pay ticket to wander through the pandemonium.

Jamie: 12:14

Well, I mean, no, I mean, it's downtown, so you can wander through the pandemonium. There's activation. So there's a lot of marketing companies come in and do kind of you know, there was one year that. They had every Batmobile. Oh, cool. Like, and you could, that was free. I mean, you had to, you know, there was a line or whatever. But, you know, that was so, I mean, there are activations like that. I mean, Westworld, they had a whole activation where they like bust you out to this thing, like out in the boonies. And like you acted around, like you were in the, the whole show. Huh? This year there's a, because of Alien, like Aliens has a new show, alien Earth or something like that. Right, right, right. On FX maybe. So there's an activation with Alien Downtown criterion Collection, you know, you know what I'm talking about? Criterion Collection, you know, the, I, you know, pick your five movies, you know, and people go, oh

Kurt Neiswender: 13:10

yeah,

Jamie: 13:10

oh yeah. So they have that. They have a, basically like a van. It's like, it's not like a dirty van, like no windows. Well, there aren't any windows. Okay. But it, I mean, it's labeled. Tell me it's, I mean, it's LA it looks like it's labeled properly, so you know, so the van takes you where? I don't think the van goes anywhere. You get in the van. Oh, okay. You get in the van and there's a bunch of movies in there. It's a van experience, which also sounds a little sketchy, but

Kurt Neiswender: 13:49

yeah. Let's see. Yeah, maybe I'll look. We'll look it up on the internet and see how they're promoting. Set event at some point said event. Yes. Yeah, do so. Yes.

Jamie: 14:00

So Austin always interesting.

Kurt Neiswender: 14:03

Yeah, well the, are they Portland is like the, keep it weird, right? Or also Austin. Keep it weird. Yeah. What do they say about Portland? I don't care. Keep it str I don't care. Fantastic. Well, I appreciate the the up upbeat. And I, I don't wanna sort of lead into the sketch and say that it's, it's super downbeat, but it, it kind of puts things a little bit back in perspective is why we, we were sort of prompting the, the sketch a little bit. But,

Jamie: 14:41

yeah. Well, I mean, you know, it's, you know, it is, like I said, it is, it's a crazy time. I mean, and, you know, and even in, in Austin, you know, there were. You know, there were protests downtown you know, amidst all of the South by, you know, goings on. You know, that's, that's happening all over the us. So it's, it, it, it, it definitely, it, like you said, it, it, it's a moment of perspective of, you know, multiple things kind of going on all at the same time. Our bandwidth you know, checking in on our family and friends is really important. But as we do on this podcast oftentimes off air before we get on air, but yeah, it, it, you know, thank you for letting me sort of, you know, riff on South by because it's, it's one where I've seen some crazy musical acts. It's been fun. Those, you know, so just to finish that thought about the, the free versus not. I mean, Austin does have a great food scene too, so that's, that's fun. You know, that's a fun part to share, share the city with folks. Kyle McLaughlin, you know, our favorite Dale Cooper. So our friend Jason, you know, saw that on the interwebs on the Instagram that Kyle was, he was, he was he was cutting up the the old brisket at, style switch barbecue, which you've not been to.

Kurt Neiswender: 16:05

Mm-hmm.

Jamie: 16:05

There's only about a million barbecue joints in Austin that are, you know, amazing coupled with the Michelin star, by the way.

Kurt Neiswender: 16:14

Nice.

Jamie: 16:14

Style switch, not one of them, but yeah, so you, you will definitely see folks out and about at some of those f food establishments. It, there's a lot kind of going on musical stuff. You can go do that. If you got a wristband, you know, you. Get sort of priority access, but a lot of places you can still play the pay the cover and, you know, hope to get, you know, squeezed in. So yeah, it's still fun.

Kurt Neiswender: 16:39

Maybe one of these years I make the trek I've always wanted to see so by Southwest, but I'm getting a little scared now that, now that you talk about the pandemonium, but I'll, I'll park all that fear I. Oh, aside. And dude, I've taken

Jamie: 16:56

my child to like, like walk around downtown. Like she's been multiple Yeah. You know, she's been multiple times. I mean, yeah. But you know, children are fearless. Well, she is a little bit that, so, yeah. And a, and a good traveler. I've told her that here recently. So, so.

Kurt Neiswender: 17:13

So it should, you wanna

Jamie: 17:14

yeah, I, I, I'd say this is, this is our moment of transition to the sketches folks past the popular culture and more to aligning with current events.

Kurt Neiswender: 17:24

Yeah, so I mean, I'll, I wanna, I'll just do the quickest introduction and I then I want you to, expand a little bit, but I mean, so we, so we, the, the bit back to our tradition of looking at some Jamie sketches for today, no random architecture or CURT AI experiments. But on the left is now I already Selma, excuse me. Excuse me. 60th anniversary of, of the, the Selma March. And on the right is an older sketch of Jamie's of the Black Lives Matter mural. Street mural. Right.

Jamie: 18:08

Inspired by

Kurt Neiswender: 18:09

at the time. Yeah. Yeah. Inspired by, right. Which, so, which is why we kind of said things were a little bit. More intense or intense. So, present, present day, right. As of the recording of this episode, right. You know, in DC they, they're planning on scrubbing the mural, the Black Lives Matter mural from the streets, and, yeah. And, and Jamie being you know, al always sort of finger on the pulse of of these, of these things and, and staying abreast of the situation generated the, well, I mean, it wasn't probably because of that, but be also because of the Selma anniversary. You know, you penned the sketch and. And so anyway, so now we have side by side, like kind of these two sort of powerful cultural identities, you know, in, in, in tandem today. So anyway, so Jamie,

Jamie: 19:15

yeah, well, no, thank you. And, and it's, you know, and I think the tandem and sort of pairing it this way is, is, is a good setup because on the left we've got, you know, John Lewis. Who's deceased, but, you know, is, you know, always in our memory, you know, of somebody who talked about that good trouble. Right? And encouraging people to think about good trouble. And, you know, he was one of, he was one of the people that 60 years ago, March 7th, you know, was at the Edmond Pettus Bridge. And you know, it's, I, I think that. You know, there, you know, from Selma to Montgomery in that march and all those types of things, that's a, it's a touchstone in sort of civil rights and in the United States and kind of human rights and sort of that, that long trajectory of things where people, you know, talk about you know, seminal moments. I mean, this is one of those anniversaries that I think, you know, in this particular year, you know, not that it went kind of under the radar, but I think that there's just so much. You know, everything sort of dialed up to 11 that, you know, 60 year anniversary, you know, felt a little bit a little different, you know, for me, I mean, and it's something that you know, as a sort of trying to be a student of, of US history and trying to understand sort of this adopted home that I have you know, things like this are really, really important to me. And you know, John Lewis as, as a statesman and, you know, as somebody who, you know, protested as a young man, you know, marched with Martin Luther King and so many others. It's, you know, his legacy and sort of things like that. I've never drawn him before. I, I, I kind of wanted to try this time, you know, and I, I, I've tried before to kind of, you know, fiddle with it. Never posted anything that I, that I recall. But this time I really wanted to kind of try and do a portrait.'cause I was just thinking about him. And to Kurt's point, I, I was thinking about this previous sketch. I had to go back and find it. And I wasn't sure if I did it in May or if I did it in June of that year. But in 2020, you know, we had, you know, you know, the murder of George Floyd, you know, which sparked a whole different type of protest and whole different sort of consciousness about marching. And I. And then as Kirk pointed out, it, it sort of created this opportunity, you know, to memorialize some of those things in asphalt art, you know, not graffiti, but asphalt art, you know, in the Black Lives Matter, kind of in the street, you know, became, you know, really, really seminal moment. And to hear that just as we're about to have the anniversary of the march in Selma, that that's gonna be removed. In Washington dc and literally scraped, you know, like scraping history from the surface of the street. You know, it was just something that I just, I was really trying to grapple with. And the, so the sketch on the right was done in June of 2020. You know, full on Covid time, you know, we're totally in lockdown and. John Lewis. You know, some might not know, but it kind of goes to my whole penchant for like sequential art, you know, or comic books or graphic novels. You know, my, you know, my favorites, right? I'm still reading this, getting through this book. But it's he wrote a series of three graphic novels with some folks that, you know, super talented as well, but they were. Kind of about his own pers it was sort of his own personal history with the civil rights movement. And they were, you know, you know, titled March. And they were amazing books, you know, and, and so that's what this is, you know, so the sketch on the right is literally kind of a throwback to the, you know, the, you know, that kind of. You know, period, that sort of thinking. And then the one on the left, you know, is contemporary and, you know, really talking about that march over the bridge,

Kurt Neiswender: 23:21

you know, and, and oddly enough you know, New York Times reminded me this morning that we are also in the fifth anniversary. Of, or the fifth year of past Covid, right? Yeah. Today I think Mark some of the some of those milestone dates of when they started to send people home and you know, create those, those sort of, mandates or shutdown, you know, whatever they called it, statewide and federal and stuff like that. Which, which I remember when we, you know since we're both remote, we can still record the podcast during the pandemic. And I remember of that June that June sketch that this, this sketch on the right that you made in having that conversation then.'cause,'cause there was a mural made here in Flint. In conjunction with the, those black Lives Matter murals all, all across the country. And so it was nice, I mean, to, to be able to, you know, I was able to, since it's outdoors, right. You know, part of the whole thing is that, you know, it created some of that safe space health wise to, to, to sort of cre create these pieces of art. And so I did take a, take a, a quick. Drive over to that part of town, which it's still there in here, here in front. It still exists. And you know, to, to compare.

Jamie: 24:50

Well, and, and as you mentioned that, that we talked about that in episode, we'll have to tag that in our notes this time. You know, kind of go beyond our, our typical notes because if I remember correctly. That's also when you shared with me, I don't know if we did it on the podcast specifically, but we definitely talked about it ourselves and maybe maybe online. Was you know, the, the Flint water crisis was also sort of, you know, you know, kind of top of, top of mind as well. And so you have a little kind of. Civil rights activist leader there. And, and she did some skateboarding, I believe over the top of that mural that you're, that you're talking about. Well, you

Kurt Neiswender: 25:28

made, you made that sketch too. I think I tried to Yeah. You pulled it from the New York? Not the New York Times, but the, the, the local paper, I think it was an AP photo. I think actually the photo was taken by a local photographer. Jake May then was picked up by the ap. I. So it got spread out. Yeah. Nationally. It was really cool. Yeah, we'll have to find that. I know it, it exists somewhere and we'll, we'll pull that up. But to, to sort of then volley over to the John Lewis. The, the thing I pick up on which to to speak a bit about the architectural language of the sketches is the sense of the scale, figure of, of the. The mass of humans, you know, marching, right? Like on the left, it's a farther zoomed away, so they're much smaller scale figures. And then you sort of composed it against this sort of bust of John Lewis, which honestly the left sketch is like a fantastic. Po mural piece, you know, that could be a beautiful mural somewhere this composition'cause it's the scale of, of the bust of a, of a full size or, you know, the head and shoulders of John Lewis. And then behind or adjacent the small scale bird's eye view of, of the bridge and the marching. You know, marching people across the bridge and, you know, super, super symbolic.

Jamie: 27:07

And mixed media too, and mixed media. This time I like, it's like I, I'm sort of in this penchant, the last couple sketches, sort of this last couple rounds where I, I don't know, it's I saw this posted recently. It's something you and I have talked about and. Like, I almost sent it to you. But it was like somebody was talking about that gestural moment, you know, sort of when we're talking about sketches and drawing with a pen in your hand or a pencil in your hand and just sort of manipulating things at the wrist, you know, there's, there's some control in that sort of sketch, in that drawing. There's some deliberateness about it. Maybe even some hesitation. Right. But when you, when you. For me, and I'll do this even with a, I will hold a pencil differently. Like if you see me sketch with a pencil, like I will hold the pencil differently than I would with as writing it. But a charcoal, you have to hold it differently, right? You have to hold it and use your whole arm. You have to, you're moving at the shoulder, you're moving at the elbow, and you know, even in a sketchbook of this size, which you can see with the coffee cup there, it's still a small sketchbook. There's still that you're getting a fuller range of movement and motion. And what that does, even, even here where I'm, I'm doing it pretty subtly that I, I find that the expression or the emotion. That I'm trying to impart to the drawing comes through a little bit more. And so when I'm, you know, kind of passionate about a subject this, I find that I gravitate to those kinds of tools and then find ways to kind of refine them with, with the, with the pen, with, you know, or with the pencil afterwards. So,

Kurt Neiswender: 28:54

yeah, I mean, I think the, the use of charcoal, the tone. Shifts from dark to light or shade, shadow and, and, and shine. You know, like the, where the sun angle might be. Yeah, it really frames, frames well. Plus the pen overlay. I just had to zoom in a bit for those that are watching to, to sort of see some of the detail in, in the use of the charcoal and, which on the right hand side, so it's all pen. On the left, we have, you know, the pilot pen plus plus charcoal, which is yeah, it's been fun to see the, the, the emergence or reemergence of some mixed media from Jamie's sketches in recent days. But the point on the arm, right motion is the key. I, one of the keys you know, and I try and explain. To people when sketching is to, because we were taught that every, I mean everyone in, in learning of how to cont develop that sketching skill is taught to try and use your whole arm, right? All the way up to your neck, right? Like not just the, the hand and the wrist, right? These, the sort of fingers.'cause you can't actually get the. Gesture or the control from the, the, it's the, like the irony or the contradiction. I think people think that it all starts in the hand, but it really starts in the shoulder in order to generate the most controlled movement of, of shape in, in whatever sketch you're making. So you know, by bringing that up, I thought that was interesting. I mean, people use the word,

Jamie: 30:46

yeah. I mean, people use the word genuine in a different context these days. Right. And, and I feel like, you know, I would use it, I would, I would, I would borrow it. I would borrow it from, from modern sort of contemporary context. And I would bring it to this conversation and say, I feel like my sketches as an artist, as an architect, are more genuine when I am drawing with, with my whole arm. It's even, even if it's only for a moment, you know, even if it's only for that first minute of that gesture to, you know, get idea and emotion to page and then refining from there. So yeah, I, I I'm glad that you sort of felt the same way and sort of it resonated with you.'cause it, I think that, that, that skill was something that, you know, admittedly we were taught. You know, that, that sort of level of thinking but sometimes that, that remembering those techniques is, is super important too.'cause we do forget them. I forget them. You know, like, I, I forget to kind of go back to that well, of tools. And in this, in, I find myself in this moment where I'm thinking about a lot of things, you know, that there's a, there's a comfort in drawing this way. There's a naturalness of drawing this way for me, so,

Kurt Neiswender: 32:06

yeah. I'm glad I'm, I'm glad you brought it up. Or, you know, you know, that, that, that we can, we can kind of get into that level of detail. And I, you know, I just, I'm just sort, I'm, I'm sort of sitting here thinking and imagining the, the movement right. Just, just those physical movements from the, the drawing side and, and also then sort of reliving a little bit of the, the education of myself in that. But re

Jamie: 32:40

remember that Prof who taught you that. Sort of in that earliest, you know, studio or foundational drawing course. And now fast forward Kurt to the cur of today where Kurt's like playing with Gravity sketch and like still doing the same techniques. That's true. That moment of like, you know, serendipity where you realize all of this is actually a continuum.

Kurt Neiswender: 33:03

Actually you, you brought up Gravity Sketch'cause, act,'cause actually, so this final assignment and, and I'll, well, everything's back in person again. So I, I won't be, I won't be able to zoom you in, but maybe we can fly you out to come to campus.'cause we do have a little money for that. But the, this with this, this studio that I'm in the second year studio, me and my, I think I mentioned it, but if I didn't my fellow faculty member, Taaka and I are going to implement some vr, not primarily or only, but as a contra contributing workflow. For the students to sort of occupy in full scale and sketch and iterate a little bit in VR and then translate that into their own drawings and development.'cause this, this particular studio is a little bit more interior focused about, you know, shaping space from the inside out at a smaller scale. Scope of project, and so yeah, you brought that up and yeah, I, I, I, I also remember, yeah, gravity. The only difference in gravity Sketch is you don't have the feedback like a pen or pencil to paper, right? It's just air. So you, you kind of have to, uh, perceive your own sense of friction with the. You still

Jamie: 34:37

gotta find it. You still gotta find it. Yeah. Like it's all about seeking. So yeah. So

Kurt Neiswender: 34:42

there'll be some interesting, yeah, there might be some stuff that we can integrate into the podcast as the semester progresses. And then, and then fingers crossed, as we near the end of the semester, we can fly you up from Texas to, to kind of get in on the, the critiques. So sneak in

Jamie: 35:02

a trip. Sneak in a trip. That'll be fun.

Kurt Neiswender: 35:04

Kind of a fun you know, we, we wanted to stay serious for the sketch, but we had an interesting sort of flow from, from, the concept of, of or I guess the, the premise of, of the artistic developments of sketches and then technique and then you know, into education, I suppose. So

Jamie: 35:23

it doesn't, it doesn't stop in one spot. I mean, that's, that's the beauty of these conversations. And, and thank you for, for everybody who, for who've stayed with us through the episode. I think it's been a good one. Thanks, Kurt.

Kurt Neiswender: 35:34

Yes, thanks. And all I gotta say is more gelato.

35:38

I.