175 - Demystifying Architecture Through Sketches

Demystifying Architecture Through Sketches

In this live-streamed episode of the Copy Sketch podcast, Jamie and Kurt discuss the significance of architectural sketches and their political implications. They delve into the meaning behind Jamie's recent artwork featuring a light pencil sketch of Andy Warhol with a Polaroid camera, overlaid with a portrait of Ukrainian President Zelensky in blue and yellow. The episode emphasizes the importance of using art and architecture to take a stand on political issues, while also touching on the nuances of sketching techniques and professional vulnerability. The hosts also share about upcoming plans to record more live content at conferences and the introduction of new podcast merchandise.

00:00 Introduction and Livestream Setup
00:14 Architecture Podcast Overview
01:21 Reflecting on Past Episodes
02:32 Upcoming Conferences and Plans
03:28 Technical Challenges and Improvements
04:41 Live Stream Interaction and Community
04:53 Travel Plans and Safety Concerns
06:27 Temperature Check and Weather Talk
07:38 Engaging with the Audience
12:05 Moving Past the Snake Oil
12:16 Little City Coffee Experience
13:55 Health Concerns and Care Packages
15:38 Upcoming Live Streams and Milestones
17:23 Jamie’s Sketch and Ukraine
20:42 Art, Architecture, and Political Statements
23:36 Reflecting on Influences and Current Events
30:46 The Sketching Process and Vulnerability
36:14 Concluding Thoughts and Positivity

Transcript

Kurt Neiswender: 0:32

Hey Jamie, how's it going?

Jamie: 0:34

Well, I mean that whole like green room experience, you know, today was a lot. And so how,

Kurt Neiswender: 0:40

what is the question? Why are more people not watching the live stream? No, we have a live, I, I know. Well, I mean, yes we do. I was trying to, I was trying to be cheeky.

Jamie: 0:53

Yeah. I. Well, I mean, and in that cheekiness, you know, realizing like, oh my gosh, you, there's more content than what's coming across in these podcast episodes.

Kurt Neiswender: 1:05

Yeah. I know a lot, a lot of people, I mean, I know a lot of our, our listeners listen to the audio, which is edited, cleaned up. It's cleaned up, tightened up, tightened up, all those things. Yep, yep. Agreed. But if you have some time, why not join the livestream? I. Jamie and I have moved mountains to make Tuesday nights at seven Eastern, six central, which we probably and 90% of the time if there 90 fault, I would say we've not advertised the live stream time well enough.

Jamie: 1:41

This is true, and, but it is not Tuesday night, tonight, it's pure gold. Is it Tuesday night? Oh, today is Thursday. Today's Thursday. Yeah. See, so we

Kurt Neiswender: 1:52

move. So sometimes it does move people, but, but, but

Jamie: 1:56

it's not like a teams meeting. Typical, it's not like that teams meeting that somebody scheduled and then moved on you, and then moved on you again.

Kurt Neiswender: 2:04

Yeah. It's not that. Well, we're doing our, we're doing our darnest to make it more regular on Tuesdays. However, yes, I. If there was a a, a, a ding, you know, a, a ding to take, I will take it. Don't, don't blame Jamie. Yeah. It's usually me, you know, because of my dog, which is no longer the room, but, you know, I'll blame the dog that we're not on Tuesdays every single Tuesday, but we do aim for Tuesday nights. But,

Jamie: 2:34

and, and we've someone who is pointing out. Very astutely in the chat that you know, because we do have listers, folks, right? Technology and because of the technology of this whole live streaming platform is that we can actually go off a script, oh wait, there is no script, and actually respond and react to comments, including those that are pointing out that you can set notifications if you sort of right. Find your way to, you know, follow and subscribe and et cetera. That, yeah, we're doing the thing. It's live. Yeah. Thank,

Kurt Neiswender: 3:13

thanks Jimmy. And also thanks Chris N three architecture. If you guys don't know Chris at N three Architecture, you should because, because you know, he's he's got a lot of stuff going on on his page. Page. I don't know. Webpage sounds like a all, all of his digital arena

Jamie: 3:34

that sounds he likes to share is basically what you're saying. That's a great edit. Yeah. And that's, I think that's the, we look up to Chris. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, well it's, I think it's, you know, the, the thing is that there are, are colleagues out there and we've been fortunate to get to know multiple networks of them who like to share you know, share, well, he's gonna

Kurt Neiswender: 3:53

be our host. This June, whether he knows it or not, but you know, the a IE conference is in, in Boston, this, this summer. And, and Chris, Chris is in the Boston area, so,

Jamie: 4:06

so that means he's gonna,

Kurt Neiswender: 4:07

he's going to get an earful for Jamie

Jamie: 4:09

and I. Yeah, he, he, he needs to, to, you know, we, we want all, we want all the things, we want all the lists, all the personalized lists. Of places to go, places to see those back, you know,

Kurt Neiswender: 4:22

you know. Well, Chris is a great host back of house. I've already, we've already go through this tour. Yeah. Put the challenge out. And so yeah. Thanks, thanks for joining Chris, listening to the live stream. But the and anyone else that's also on the live stream that's not chatting, the reason we're, we're responding to Chris on the chat, but anyway, so Jamie. We've had quite a conversation before, right? Before, before the recording. So what's in your coffee cup? Well, because mine might come with a little political bent.

Jamie: 4:54

Okay. But we'll see. We'll see you. You're not gonna say like something about snake oil again. We did that in the last time. No.

Kurt Neiswender: 5:00

We're, we're moving past,

Jamie: 5:02

moving past the snake oil? Well I just needed like the jolt, right? I needed the jolt of something local and something I haven't had in a long time. Maybe one that I've never even mentioned on the podcast, going back to Little City. So Austin Original not the Grackle. You know, which I know you like not the violent crown, which I've talked about that I need to send you, which is another, that's probably one of my favorites. But they have an espresso, that they call it the messenger espresso. Like, and I, I kind of imagine it like the bike messenger and there's actually a bike messenger, like on the logo there. So like the messenger bag, like when I, you know. He carried the laptop around like a soldier. And well, I mean, like

Kurt Neiswender: 5:47

many architects

Jamie: 5:48

did. Yeah. Like many architects do, right. Yeah. So it, it like, it, it's, I feel seen, you know, by this, this coffee. And yeah, it's, it's quite good. It has some notes of honey in it, which I always sort of forget that I really do. You know, I do like that. With, with coffee from time to time. Mm-hmm. So the, the beans have that. I think, I'm not sure where this one is from. But yeah, they, they usually get small lots, micro lots and things like that, that they work with. Certain, certain folks who are, you know you know, part of their kind of coffee family. But yeah little city messenger, espresso,

Kurt Neiswender: 6:26

I mean the stuff that in the cup. The stuff that I've received from Little City, from Jamie has been fantastic, and I'm actually the hints, the hints are over now, please, Jamie, send Little City because you talked about it too much Care. Patrick. Care package. Please, please send,

Jamie: 6:46

do, do you remember that time, like when like. Yeah. And I'm not gonna say, but it was when you were like being, like when your coffee intake was being dialed down.

Kurt Neiswender: 6:59

Oh, yeah. By, by elements.

Jamie: 7:01

By by, you know, there was a, there was a point in your life. Yeah, there was,

Kurt Neiswender: 7:04

there was a, there

Jamie: 7:05

was a health, a health concern. Right. It was like, sort of like a, like I felt like I was sending care packages past the demilitarized zone.

Kurt Neiswender: 7:15

Well, I'll just have, you know, that being a friend and, and a, a, a family member of the podcast, right. You know, a founder. Yeah, Danielle did not, police too hard, but yeah. Yeah. The luckily that, that phase is over in Good, good, good. Yeah. No, that's good. It's important if you want the health update. Yeah, that's

Jamie: 7:38

good. That's important.

Kurt Neiswender: 7:39

But yeah, we, I just real, I was looking at the clock and I was like, I know Jamie wants, Jamie and I, although let's, let's be honest, Jamie is more interested than Kurt, unfortunately, in, in watching Messi play some soccer football. Yes. So those, the fi, the purists. Yeah, football is happening soon, so we gotta keep this, keep the ship moving. Yeah, so I will just be brief. I'm still drinking a, a a coffee, a Guatemalan, roast, a medium roast of, of coffee, which is actually at the, at the, at the end. But I will get back to the farmer's market tomorrow and grab. Some new stuff because there's some new stuff in the Flint farmer's market that, that I, I only have heard hint hints of. So let that be a little surprise for All right. So that's,

Jamie: 8:31

that'll be for next time.

Kurt Neiswender: 8:33

Yeah. So the next live stream, which we plan to, to maintain on Tuesday nights.

Jamie: 8:39

We might try and sneak an episode in on the weekend if we do, or weekend, you know, we might because, but, but like

Kurt Neiswender: 8:46

Chris said, because we're almost up, if you just, if you just, you know, click notification, you'll, you'll be reminded,

Jamie: 8:52

you know, and we're kind of, we're almost up to that milestone folks. We're almost up to 1 75. Yeah. I don't know why these artificial numbers, it's artificial rules, just like in the sketching. Which you far should get to, don't you think? I,

Kurt Neiswender: 9:07

I agree.

Jamie: 9:08

Yeah. Okay.

Kurt Neiswender: 9:09

1 75 is a number. However. Oh, I gotta, here we go. But the and let me just turn off the captions. There they go. So now we have full, full frame. So first of all, I mean, so Jamie's got. So this week is gonna be a hundred percent Jamie. No ai because we, no AI needed. Yeah, I think we just stay on this one.

Jamie: 9:32

Let's just stay on this one. This, this is, this is, this one's tight for this episode. This is good. We could save the other one for another day.

Kurt Neiswender: 9:39

Sounds

Jamie: 9:39

good.

Kurt Neiswender: 9:40

So there's been, there's been a lot. I mean, I'll just say one piece is there's been, there's been a lot going on. The United States government, but I think as, as in this case, I would call the podcast small, being that we are a little piece of a big picture condition, but supporters of, and constant supporters of, you know, the, the situation in Ukraine and. I just wanna say that we don't wanna ignore the fact that, you know, lives have been shared to, to support the sovereignty of Ukraine. Jamie's sketch, you know, I'm looking at it with fresh eyes, so I'm gonna let Jamie kind of explain a little bit about it. But to me. As an architect looking at Jamie's sketch with what we look, what we talk about on a, on a regular basis on this podcast, which is a black and white sketch. Jamie, you know, rarely uses color and in this instance, and I don't wanna make it too heavy, but the fact that Jamie applied too simple. Washes of color, which are blue and yellow, which represent Ukraine is all to me, that sort of sets the tone of the importance of what we have to say in architecture as, as, as Understanders or developers of the built environment. That's all I'm gonna say is, is that. What we are witnessing in Ukraine is, is, is, is more than words can describe, and the, the, the simple diagram of blue and yellow that Jamie put on the sketch says it all. And I know Jamie will describe into, into more detail about it. I can't capture everything. But I, I love setting up the sketch and I appreciate you letting me do that. Yeah. You know, with some quiet Yeah.

Jamie: 11:45

No, no. I, I, I think it's you know, you honed in on exactly what we would do as a designer, as an architect, is it's you know, you teach a lot of students right now is sort of that, you know, what's the why? You know what's, what's that simple move? What's that? What's that very subtle thing that you can do that's so deliberate on the page that, you know, the sketch isn't even one of my best sketches. Right. You know, it's like, you know, I mean, I, I critique and go, eh, could I have done, you know, Zelensky better? Yes, absolutely. But, but it, it, it's, it's. Poignant, you know, and it would've been poignant without the colors, right? It, and it would've, it have, it would've evoked the conversation. But as you point out, like I don't, you know, there is a, a method to my madness, you know, with the way that I try and set up these sketches as coffee sketches is, it's the coffee cup, it's the sketchbook, it's the the pen, it's the pencil, it's the implement. And we joke about it when we talk about with ai, you know, well, partly. 55 pencils

Kurt Neiswender: 12:53

to me, but to, to, to interrupt. This is the, the perfect epitome of less is more. Right? There's only three things going on in the sketch. There's a pencil, sketch, and two colors. That's it. And the whole point is, is, is set on the table.

Jamie: 13:14

Well, and, and I think, you know, and I think that the thing too is that there's, you know, there's always layers of meaning to things, right. And so, you know, I always try and reveal a little bit about the thinking behind a sketch. You know, sometimes there isn't very much. Sometimes it's just sort of thoughts that are kind of rolling around in my head that I'm trying to sort out, you know, which is, which is probably still the case here. You know, it's, but as Kurt and I always say with sort of our introduction is we're talking about our daily lives, we're talking about popular culture, we're talking about those cultural influences on our work. As artists and architects, you know, and just, you know, people out in the world. So, you know, as you know, black History Month was sort of ending, you know, one of my favorite artists that I was so fortunate to see a work of his that I'd never seen in person before. Basquiat, you know, I saw that in DC on a recent trip and I saw it against a bank fee. You know, so it was, you know, Banksy and Basquiat, like two artists that are just, you know you know, graffiti artists, you know, provocateurs, you know, but poignant in their critique of society and kind of realizing what's kind of going on in the world and trying to communicate that through their art. And that just resonates with me. That's just. You know, I, that's, you know, cuts right to my soul, right? So Basquiat is just somebody that, you know, it, it's always gonna be there. You know, that's always gonna be my touchstone, you know, to try and figure out more of his work, see more of it when I get the opportunity to. And you know, the, the other thing too is that there's a lot of communities that are under attack right now, you know? And one of which is, you know, you know, our friends in the L-G-B-T-Q, you know. I a plus, you know? Right. Yeah. It's, you know, as allies, you know, Kurt and I, you know, I. You know, have so many friends and family members and, and whatnot who, you know, are part of that community. And so, you know, there's a sketch sort of blurred out on the left that was sort of the day before. And, you know, to kind of end Black History Month. And it was Basquiat with Keith Herring. And sort of in, in doing, you know, and I got a book about Basquiat that I didn't have before. I always love to add to the architect's library. But in that, I, I found out that when Basquiat passed away, Keith Herring was asked, by I, I believe Vogue Magazine. And I put, I put that in the post actually, is they asked him to write like, like an in memoriam, like an obituary, you know, for his friend. And you know,'cause both of them were basically the same age-ish. Right. And both in New York at the same time, you know, early eighties, you know, this is sort of before the AIDS crisis or just as it's sort of kind of happening. And you know, they're running around with people like Madonna and you know, you know. The Velvet Underground and Andy Warhol and, you know mm-hmm. Other artists and musicians and just sort of, you know, this whole scene, you know, Kenny Scharf, you know, all these graffiti artists, you know, amazing stuff. And so it, it, it's, you know, there's stuff that's sort of fascinating to me to try and understand. I try and read, you know, read about that period and the influence of it. But I say all that because suddenly I'm, you know, I'm, I'm watching the news and I'm listening to about. What's kind of going on with Ukraine and literally on February 28th, you know, we're we as a country, you know, through our leadership basically turns its back, you know, on what's kind of going on with one of our allies. You know, that, that they're the backstop to democracy in Europe, you know, and. And watching that in real time was just like, you know, just, it, it, it just hit me and, you know, because you're, you're having these sort of cultural moments and what was funny was my brain went to Andy Warhol and sort of that 15 minutes of fame, you know, 15 seconds, you know, as everybody sort of accelerates it now and talks about it today. But, you know, so I. I was trying to think. There were some images of Warhol that I had in my head, and I went and found a photograph where he had done sort of his own self portrait using a Polaroid camera, you know, shaker, like a Polaroid picture for those, you know, who know the reference. But you know, so you, you got Andy Warhol taking, using the Polaroid and instead of him taking a picture of himself, which is what, what the, what the portrait actually is. I inserted Zelensky. Mm-hmm. And, and, and, and as Kurt has pointed out, you know, the, the added touch of two really small color washes you know, spoke to him, you know, spoke to me and I think spoke to the moment.

Kurt Neiswender: 18:05

Yeah. You know. We, we, I know we, I don't want to dwell on it too long, but the, the concept of architecture is political or architecture is not political is, I think we lean on the side that architecture is always political and you know, just the essence of the sketch. Which I knew, you know? Yeah. With the, the, the sort of familiar image of Warhol and the Polaroid behind, which is in a very light. I mean, if we wanna talk just about sort of the aesthetic representation of a sketch in this case, the pencil drawing is very lightly drawn. Right? We, you know, we, we often talk about technique. Sometimes we. Move past very quickly. But in this case, if we want to go back to that a little bit right of the subject, the sketch is a very light press of the pencil on the page within another light press of color on only bit of color is a tinge of blue and yellow. Which represent the Ukrainian flag over cross the Polaroid, which is a fantastic composition, which is what I love about Jamie's ability to just sort of touch on political conditions without overtly beating it over your head essentially. And. And, and then, you know, so the, the, the Polaroid image of what, you know, Vladimir Zelinsky, president of Ukraine in the Polaroid with the blue and yellow is, is just so cleanly done. And, and so why this makes the, the, the whole, the whole point of today's conversation, I mean, is, is, is that the you know, architecture. Our role in architecture, I should say, is to, to not stand by, but to, to stand up and speak to the things that are happening, and use what we, we learn, right? Like we, our tools are graphic, you know, drawings, photographs, visual. Visual tools, use those tools right to, to at least take a stance. And that, you know, I don't, I don't wanna get too, you know, too political about it. But not saying something is, I think, worse than saying the things that we want, the, the, the things that we wanna say about it.

Jamie: 20:43

Well, and, and I think that's the whole thing is that I think that, you know, we're. I, you know, I appreciate the way you sort of frame this is that it's, you know, we, we have to say, you know, we have to be true to ourselves. You know, we have to be true to our beliefs. You know, as architects, you know, there's you know, we've both been in plenty of conversations, you know, with our profession because both of us have served in roles. You know, I'm currently serving in a role and. But you know, aside from that is that you're, it's not just representation of other individuals, it's sort of representation of ideas. It's representation of a profession. It's about you know, speaking to the, the role that we play as architects, hopefully, you know, we, we, I think as a profession, and even, you know, for the students that are maybe listening, is that. You know, we kind of get into this where we think that we can make a difference, you know, and we think about trying to make, you know, design decisions that are, you know, we're listening to communities, we're listening to certain, you know, situations. We're trying to be creative about certain aspects of things. And, you know, in doing that, I think that we, you know, we believe that we can, we can make a difference and we can make a change. And, you know, work collaboratively, both with communities but also our peers. And I think what oftentimes frustrates folks is that when we do get into situations where we're talking more as a profession, is that some of that slows down, you know, and slows down to the point where, you know, taking that position is sort of calculated. You know, and, and, and that political calculus, or that calculus that kind of goes on really diminishes the spirit of the way Kurt spoke about this sketch, which just, you know, makes me feel good about what I tried to do because, you know, he, like others who saw it and sort of sent me a note, you know, it resonated with folks and it was subtle. And, and that's the thing about art and architecture, is that it can speak to a moment, it should speak to a moment. It should speak to the present. It should also acknowledge sort of the lineage of other artists, other architects, other cultures and, and find ways to incorporate that into our own work. You know, I mean, Warhol. You know, famously, you know, did lithographs of Mao, right? And at the same time did Lithographs of Marilyn Monroe. So what, you know, what, you know, what are we trying to talk about here? You know? And, and I think that that's the, you know, the cult of personality around some of these individuals and how we've, we, we frame those conversations is really, really important. But, you know, I think that. In this particular instance, I mean, Kurt's right, to say that the sketch is done very, very lightly. I find that when I've been having trouble sketching and that I want to do, something that's like this, where it's a challenge, I know I'm gonna be challenging myself, is that I, like others will give myself the implement that I feel, you know, that I'm allowed to make a mistake. You know, the pencil allows me to make that mistake. There isn't any erasure that are in this sketch. Kurt's, you know, conveniently zoomed up really up on it. I've not done any, you know, but you can sort of see the light tones and how they're built up. I'm still doing it really fast.'cause that's just the way I, I do tend to sketch, but it's. You know, the, the framework of, and the other thing too as a subject, Andy Warhol with his white hair and sort of very, you know stylized profile of, you know, how he kind of presented himself. The pose, even with the camera in this particular case with the fingers, kind of all kind of in a, almost like a, like a, like a puzzle. It, it made it easier to draw those than I was thinking it even would be. But I think that the last part was just the, the one that I probably spent the most time trying to make sure was right and deliberate was Zelensky face, you know, and so that's, that's, you know, maybe that's a drawing of the moment.

Kurt Neiswender: 24:57

Well, you know, one, one other thing too though, which, which you, me, you mentioned, right, which I, I want to actually amplify lastly, I. Before we cut, cut off and, and, and move on to, to some, let's say lighter things like talk, you know, watching, watching messy play football, which is good for all of us to find those moments in life to, to, to take a break, a breather from things. But you mentioned the choice of pencil over pen for you. Because we, we've done this for seven years, as if people don't realize we've talked, we've done this on a podcast for seven years. Jamie and I have done this with each other for more than that time. Right? Absolutely. Let's, but we, but let's limit it to the, to the time span of the podcast in the sense that yeah. Jamie's definitive sketches that are gonna be a sketch are. A black pilot pen on paper and his, his admittance to the fact that his 10 tentativeness or tenuous nature to the subject, leading to a pencil sketch, is something I want to at least portray to my students. Since Jamie at the moment is not in a teaching role but will be. Soon, we know this has in the past will back be back to the classroom to, to my students. You know, these are, these are the thoughts of any artist or designer, right? Is, is if you're, if you have some apprehension in the process, is what I'm trying to get at is it just, just go for it with whatever media. You feel most comfortable in to get the concept started And, and, and Jamie over here with multiple years of experience admitting to taking a step back from, say that black pilot pen on paper to a pencil and paper sketch. And then, and then, you know, sort of drilling into the, the zelensky portrait. I think it, it speaks a lot to, beyond just the, the political atmosphere, but also to our professional and technical mindset, right? Is like, how do we try and begin to portray information? So, so anyway, I am sure, I don't know if Jamie, Jamie expected me to go down that, that rabbit hole in that D trip, but, I really picked up on, on, on that and, and I just wanted to let everyone else know that, that we talked to, you know, a lot of times, you know, it's, it's my students lately, and, and I, I totally love to share these kinds of things in the process, so thank you. No, I,

Jamie: 27:49

I, you know, thank you and I, I, I, I appreciate, you know, your recognition of that. And, and realizing that it's, it is a process. And there is some vulnerability with the, the work that we do and that we talk about, you know, that both of us talk about, you know, in, in the things that we're doing. And we're doing that because, you know, we, honestly, it's, it's good for us, but it's something that we realized that maybe we missed at times. You know, and you know, there we've talked about our mentors in different roles, in different capacities before, but you know, sometimes there's some gaps in that. And, you know, if, if we have an opportunity to share a little bit more you know, like, you know, you deftly described it, you know, in terms of my own process with this particular one. And you know, I'm glad, I'm glad we, I'm glad we took the time to talk about this today.'cause I think it's, you know, definitely it weighs on, you know, a lot of things are weighing a lot of, on a lot of people. And you know, this is a way for us to engage it, you know, as you say, without spending all of the time on the political discourse, but talking about our feelings with, related to the work and, you know, talking about the art. And architecture and and we didn't even go there talking about, you know, that there should be a federal style. So, you know we could have, but we didn't.

Kurt Neiswender: 29:10

Well, there's, there's episodes in the future, but the, but the point is, I think what we, what we do on this podcast is to try and do things with a positive. Bent and, you know, regardless of the, the atmosphere that surrounds us and you know, our, even if it just is down to the simple banter between Jamie and I about what coffee we're drinking, the whole point about it is to try and keep things positive, light, you know, in, in, and moving in a direction. That encourages a more inclusive atmosphere rather than an exclusive. And then the artwork is the icing on the cake, in my opinion, is, is, is the, is the detail right? It's just the bit of, of fun that we can dig into and, and so anyway, so yeah. Thanks Jamie. I mean, you're always, you know, your work is always. Appreciated. And I'm more, I'm doing my best to try and No, no, you are match. You, you are, I mean, with my own sketches in my own way. But yeah, this podcast is only, only of all about being positive and fun and inclusive and, and we hope to see everyone else listening or watching in the near future. But no pressure since we, we would always have a very accurate timeline, but working on it. Thank

Jamie: 30:42

you, Jamie. Thanks buddy.