177 - Creative Collaborations & March Madness Musings

Creative Collaborations & March Madness Musings

In this lively episode, our hosts dive into the intricacies of creative processes, from automatic drawing to collaborative mural art. They share insights on inspiration from graphic novels and famous artists like Shepard Fairey and Sandra Chevalier. Meanwhile, they also provide some humor and reflection on their March Madness brackets. Despite some technical hiccups, the episode is packed with rich conversations on art, architecture, and a bit of sports banter.

00:00 Introduction and Inside Jokes
00:21 Navigating the Coffee Sketch Podcast Merch
02:29 Live Streaming and Podcasting Routine
03:56 Upcoming AIA Conference Meetup
05:38 Coffee Talk and Local Roasters
08:27 Easter Treats and Weather Chat
10:59 March Madness Bracket Woes
11:26 Subreddit Sports Segue
11:42 March Madness Bracket Challenge
13:13 Bracket Results and Reflections
16:49 Transition to Sketch Discussion
17:17 Jamie’s Latest Sketches
18:15 Influences and Inspirations
23:50 Shepherd Fairey and Collaborative Murals
30:51 Conclusion and Technical Difficulties

Transcript

Kurt Neiswender: 0:32

Oh, Shaah. Oh, Shaah.

Jamie: 0:37

Perfect execution, my friend. Perfect. My cousin would be very, very proud at this moment and laughing as with my daughter.'cause she would know from from her youth exactly what our cousin was trying to express in that.

Kurt Neiswender: 0:54

Well speaking of the youth I have a student and one of my advisees wanted to know. If where, how, how, how, what's the shortest route to ordering a coffee sketch podcast mug?

Jamie: 1:12

It's right there. Oh, that way? That way. Nope. That, that way. Nope, that way. It's that side right there. This mic.

Kurt Neiswender: 1:20

Are we pointing at it?

Jamie: 1:21

Yeah. And you are? No, you're over there. Over there. Over there. Yeah. So that QR code, so Dylan

Kurt Neiswender: 1:28

works right there. Yeah. Smash that like button and, oh wait, no,

Jamie: 1:34

and you can, and you too can run the jewels to your coffee sketch. Run the,

Kurt Neiswender: 1:40

that, that is the, that's the, I don't have my mug damnit. It's at my desk, at, at school. Run the jewels right to the mug. So, yeah, for the, for the young, for the youngins that are listening, or the olden or the in-between s. Please, please buy a mug t-shirt. Or

Jamie: 2:06

Kurt's gonna cry. Yeah. And Sarah McLaughlin Will lin pick up the, the soundtrack from there. Come from the background. Yeah.

Kurt Neiswender: 2:17

The sad, the sad pod. Sad, sad podcaster in the yas. Oh, oh,

Jamie: 2:23

please, please,

Kurt Neiswender: 2:25

please. That's I know. Well, if you ask Danielle, I'm tone deaf, I claim, I don't wanna admit it. That's what she says. That

Jamie: 2:35

is because you've been listening to 120 minutes on YouTube.

Kurt Neiswender: 2:41

I started young. Yeah. Heavy metal. Not YouTube. MTVI

Jamie: 2:47

know, but I'm saying you're watching it again on YouTube, like, oh,

Kurt Neiswender: 2:51

right. Well that's the only place to,

Jamie: 2:53

you are refreshing your like,

Kurt Neiswender: 2:56

oh,

Jamie: 2:57

keep up with me. Keep up. Yeah.

Kurt Neiswender: 2:59

The routine, Jamie, it's the routine. I know it's

Jamie: 3:02

Tuesday night and we're like,

Kurt Neiswender: 3:04

we're, we're on a, on

Jamie: 3:05

a, on a heater. It's Tuesday night. It's the usual time. Usual bat signal. We're live. I mean, we're live. I mean as,

Kurt Neiswender: 3:14

as the only live recorded and live streamed architecture and coffee sketching podcast, the. That didn't roll off the tongue like I wanted it to. Not like it has You wanna do it again?

Jamie: 3:29

Do you wanna do it again?

Kurt Neiswender: 3:30

Oh yeah. Yeah. Do it. Well, you, when, when it's live though, you don't really get a second chance.

Jamie: 3:35

No, no, no. But, but like, everybody's gonna just pause and they're gonna take a deep breath and they're gonna imagine this is all happening again. This is, this is the beauty of it. So, set up. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Kurt Neiswender: 3:44

So welcome to the only Live Streamed architecture podcast. That we call Coffee Sketch podcast. That's kind of what it is, right? It is kind of,

Jamie: 3:56

yeah. It was better. It was better, I think. I think if you did it a third or fourth time, we might like take seven. Like yeah, we would be right there

Kurt Neiswender: 4:05

and then, and then at that moment we could see the wa the watch hours. Oh yeah,

Jamie: 4:08

yeah. That's when like the, like did, like the, the numbers too. These guys

Kurt Neiswender: 4:12

just keep repeating the same thing.

Jamie: 4:15

They kept trying to give this poor guy a chance to just say the same line over and over and over again. Just,

Kurt Neiswender: 4:20

just put it in the chat, you know, put it in the chat as, as we will be monitoring the activity. But you know, we are heading into, we, well we're in the, you know, this is the show show, but we are heading into, to the home stretch, let's say into the conference, right? Ah, we're two, two months out. From the A I A conference in which we will be meeting, so for our friends, so we have lots of friends. I don't even know if Jamie knows where I'm going with this, but we have architecture, podcasting friends out there. Are you, wait, hold on,

Jamie: 5:00

hold on. Are you bringing up the thing that I've brought up to you multiple times leading up to this episode?

Kurt Neiswender: 5:06

Yes.

Jamie: 5:07

Okay. Keep going.

Kurt Neiswender: 5:11

And, and so for those friends that are listening, this is the open call to put together a, a architecture podcast meetup at the conference in June.

Jamie: 5:27

I wouldn't call it an, I wouldn't call it an open call because that sounds like we're like, like, we're fishing'cause we're not fishing. This is more like, this is like stumbling down and saying we're going to have a meetup. Oh, like, and Yes, watch this space.

Kurt Neiswender: 5:48

Oh, okay. I, I'm with that, but I didn't go that way. Watch this space. That's because Jamie is an influencer.

Jamie: 6:01

Yeah. As, as you watch this space, he used to

Kurt Neiswender: 6:05

spit out the coffee. I caught you. I got you. Well, speaking of coffee, what is in your coffee cup? I have some new stuff to, to talk about, so, but you go, I,

Jamie: 6:19

like, I had been rationing the snake oil because I felt like I really needed to have like, doses of it. Oh yeah. It's quite good. And, and I really enjoyed it. Yeah. One cannot. Give snake oil, one has to purchase snake oil. I purchased my own snake oil.

Kurt Neiswender: 6:41

That's right.

Jamie: 6:42

You

Kurt Neiswender: 6:42

can't, you can't, you can't doge snake oil.

Jamie: 6:44

No, you cannot doge it. There's no, like, not doge. It, there's all kinds of stuff. We like the, this might be the last podcast. Episode for the Coffee Sketch podcast because Kurt used one of the, like, it's not, it's like the opposite of a safe word, right? It's a it's a keyword. Yeah. Keyword search. It's a target.

Kurt Neiswender: 7:05

Well, our friends at Restream are constantly listening, so pay attention to restream. Yeah.

Jamie: 7:10

Cut that word. Please keep us on the

Kurt Neiswender: 7:12

safe list.

Jamie: 7:13

We're on the safe

Kurt Neiswender: 7:13

list.

Jamie: 7:15

So yeah. Snake oil. Cheers.

Kurt Neiswender: 7:19

Oh, that's cool. I, I haven't had any in a while, but I have had some new stuff. There's, so within the Flint area, it's not city of, but we're close, there's a roaster called Fireside Roasters, and I mean, I guess when you're introduced to New Roasters right within the, in the area. I wanna celebrate them. So I got a bag of fireside coffee company. I'm gonna get, I have to get the actual name, but it's fireside roasting technically Swartz Creek, Flint Township.

Jamie: 7:59

So does it have like a picture of like Franklin Delano Roosevelt with like a big like mic in front of like on the bag? Welcome to my fireside chat.

Kurt Neiswender: 8:09

No, it's, it's a little more say minimal on, on the, on the labeling or design side, however, the, the, the flavor, so I have the dark, I bought the dark roast, and the dark roast is called Flint Strong. It's a good, it's a good name. Flint Strong. So it's a, it's good. It's fantastic. And I'm near the end though, so now I have to go. I gotta make a decision.

Jamie: 8:33

Well, I mean, do they have other, do they have other. Oh, well,

Kurt Neiswender: 8:37

there's like at least, at least four that I saw, and I got'em at our friend's our coffee spot in the farmer's market. So,

Jamie: 8:45

well, you know, I mean, there's that care package. You know, I have one, like, I admit, you know, you know, maybe it's an Easter basket. Maybe you can send me an Easter basket full of coffee.

Kurt Neiswender: 8:58

Easter. How do you, what are your thoughts on Cadbury eggs?

Jamie: 9:02

Oh my God. Like, that's like a, like. You know, you know me like, I'm not like the dessert guy. Right. It's just, I mean, there's, I mean, I do like chocolate, right? I do like the dark C chola. I like chola. Exactly. I do like the dark chocolate, like it's good. But, you know, yes. That's, that is one. You like the Cadbury egg. Okay, good. I cannot. Can, I think

Kurt Neiswender: 9:29

they, because

Jamie: 9:30

they had good marketing in the Northeast, I just can't pass up a good Cadbury egg. I mean, like, that's just, it's like my favorite thing. I could be like sofa. I don't

Kurt Neiswender: 9:39

give a, I don't care about any of the other

Jamie: 9:41

candy. Oh no. Like peeps. I.

Kurt Neiswender: 9:44

Meh.

Jamie: 9:45

What is that? Trash? Yeah. Total trash. M like likes the peeps. We'll go to the mat.

Kurt Neiswender: 9:51

Yeah.

Jamie: 9:51

Like she will, she'll be like, you know, and then they did, I will admit the peeps, like maybe in an effort to pull in a new audience, like realize they might need to innovate. And so they did do that like peep with the chocolate on the bottom, like a, like, like a brushing of chocolate. You've seen those? I don't think so. Mm. Those that I almost, I almost can accept, but still it's a peak. Chocolate. Chocolate

Kurt Neiswender: 10:21

and marshmallow.

Jamie: 10:22

Yeah.

Kurt Neiswender: 10:24

The CAD Cadbury man, it's not the egg, it's the

Jamie: 10:26

Cadbury eggs. God, that's so good.

Kurt Neiswender: 10:30

I guess. Okay, so we're talking Easter timeframes here, so Will do. Hopefully the, well, if you're around here in the Midwest, it's still cold. Potentially get getting two inches of snow tonight. It's like 80 something here. Right. And then an inch of rain. So, you know, and then the tornado might wipe us all out. So it's just about being careful. Yeah,

Jamie: 10:57

no, I gotcha.

Kurt Neiswender: 10:58

You know, we, we don't wanna throw around any more buzzwords like, you know, climate change and things like that. Keyword, stay keyword, stay

Jamie: 11:10

safe out there. Stay safe out there. So

Kurt Neiswender: 11:13

yeah, there's a lot of, yeah, travel. Anyone traveling, but, all right, duly noted. Put it on the, put it on the board as Easter, Easter basket fireside coffee, and maybe some Cadbury eggs. So Jamie, speaking of putting it on the board. Yes. Brackets bracket allergy. It is, I don't even know why I'm bringing it up because it's so dismal on my end. I should actually, while you start talking, I actually will grab a screen share of,

Jamie: 11:48

of your bracket. Like, well, I'm

Kurt Neiswender: 11:51

gonna try and get, both

Jamie: 11:51

people's eyes might bleed, they might bleed. People whack. They literally bleed.

Kurt Neiswender: 11:56

We'll probably lose subscribers over this

Jamie: 11:58

know. So this is the, this is when we do our little subreddit like sports segue. So we did warn everybody in a past episode, which might be totally out of order by now. Totally fine. You don't have to watch'em in order or listen to'em in order to really get the gist of the podcast. But all that to say is that I maybe have issued a challenge to Kurt, like, Hey, wouldn't it be fun if we had a coffee sketch podcast bracket? That the two of us competed against each other kind of in our own little group, our own little private group on the men's as well as the women's side of mm-hmm. March Madness.

Kurt Neiswender: 12:36

Yeah. And I'll, I'll say this, I'll say this before I even show my bracket that my men, my, the men's side looks like he got beat by one of those torpedo baseball bats in the Major League baseball. Within the first 48 hours. And then on the women's side, I had a shred of life until my poor Trojans couldn't, couldn't get it done against Yukon of all of all teams. Why? Home state, which was a, a, a, a close, you know, what do you call it? Close ranked, matchup. But it turned out that the, my Trojan Trojans couldn't, couldn't quite get it done.

Jamie: 13:25

Yeah. So on the women's side, as Kurt's describing, so he had the Trojans going all the way. I did think the Trojans were going, you know, you know, advance a whole hell of a lot further than they did. But, you know, well, I, well it was the Elite eight. I mean, I know, well, I'm okay,

Kurt Neiswender: 13:41

but they got beat in the Elite eight. Yeah. Yeah.

Jamie: 13:44

But you know. Who's winning? Who's winning on both sides. Overall, maybe let's just overall, overall, let's cut to overall, let's just cut to the chase who's, who's winning. Well, let's see.

Kurt Neiswender: 13:55

Here we go. Yeah. In second place is me,

Jamie: 14:00

and that's, that's on the women's side. And yes, I have in Montreal.

Kurt Neiswender: 14:02

Fallout.

Jamie: 14:03

Yeah, I've got, I've got South Carolina winning, you know, so

Kurt Neiswender: 14:06

if you got by by points, it's what, nine 80 to seven 40? So that's, yeah. Yeah. And at this, at this stage, I think I'm out. Yeah. But as they say, mathematically eliminated.

Jamie: 14:18

I mean, my max points like are basically like potentially double yours at this point, like, so Well

Kurt Neiswender: 14:25

on the, on the men's side?

Jamie: 14:26

Yeah, on the, on the women's side, on the men's side. You know, I think the men's side, it's a, it's, you know,

Kurt Neiswender: 14:34

well, a and m got beat, but then, then state lost too. Yeah. Yesterday just, or last weekend. So, but you got you. You're crushing me. I mean, you've crushed me every round, essentially. Yeah. I was nowhere close.

Jamie: 14:51

It's strategery,

Kurt Neiswender: 14:55

if we looked at the whole thing people will laugh,

Jamie: 15:00

I think. So my takeaway from Kurt's bracket versus mine is that Kurt is that guy who gambles on lots of upsets. Like early and early, I think hard this year. Early and often. Early and often this year. And, and I think that, you know, I think you have to, I think you do have to pick an upset or two. And certainly there were some in quite a few brackets, but

Kurt Neiswender: 15:24

I picked the wrong ones in the most cases.

Jamie: 15:27

Yeah, we could, we could say it that way.

Kurt Neiswender: 15:29

So, so yeah. Well, apparently though, let's see. On the men's side, all the four. Number one seeds made it to the final four. And then is the same true on the women's side? 1, 2, 1, 1. Nope. Yukon. Yukon, of course. Yeah. Yukon took out USC, which otherwise it would've been all one seeds on both sides. How embarrassing. For myself.

Jamie: 16:05

That's okay. So. You know what, it was fun. Only, only bragging rights, only bragging rights. We, you know did this totally for fun. It's that time of year. So yeah. What, right? I, I thought this, I thought this was the year that the Aggies had a real shot. So

Kurt Neiswender: 16:24

and oh, actually, let's go back. So where did they. Oh, they got beat by Michigan.

Jamie: 16:30

Yeah, I know. I see. That's where I thought you were going to. That's where I thought you were gonna start. I

Kurt Neiswender: 16:34

wasn't gonna try and rub it in, but you know what though? You know who is gonna rub it in. You know who is definitely gonna rub it in is this guy.

Jamie: 16:45

Yeah,

Kurt Neiswender: 16:45

I know that guy. The the guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That we know. That is an Auburn alum who not only beat a m, he beat Michigan. And state, Michigan State, for those that don't speak the lingo, in order to get to the Final four, which now there is a chance to continue. Oh, and look at that. And then the final is in San Antonio, as if it wasn't close enough. Jamie. I know.

Jamie: 17:17

It's all, it's all in the, you know,

Kurt Neiswender: 17:18

rub it right in.

Jamie: 17:20

Yep. So anyways, yeah. So, so, so Kurt is just, you know, this is the tech stuff and like we're getting in the weeds and this is, this is where he lives. So we're gonna pull him out. We're just gonna pull out from the data and we're gonna go right into the sketches.

Kurt Neiswender: 17:34

Yeah, we, well, there's, we have, we need to re, re redeem, redeem it. So the but we have, well, yeah, this is our segue to Sketch Lane. So we will not name names. Yeah. But moving on from the the bracketology, but I wanted to talk about, you know, Jamie's latest sketch on the right hand side is, I guess in this case the most recent. And in the left I think is. Within a day or two. It's a day.

Jamie: 18:10

It's the day before. Yeah. And, and, and I, I, I encourage you to have both. I know we're gonna talk about the one on the right. The one on the left was super important to me because it did, it unlocked what ended up happening on the right. Ah, I like that. Okay. I need, I needed, I needed, this is one of those moments where I needed to do that sketch on the left to get to the one on the right.

Kurt Neiswender: 18:34

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So what are you talking about? Both pages or just one of the pages.

Jamie: 18:41

No, I did, so the one on the left, I actually did both pages at the same time. It's all one sketch. Oh, okay. Yeah. And it started out just from a technique point of view I was having a conversation with a friend about the book that's there. I've been sort of pulling into this architect's library. I. You know, theme of late I've mentioned it before in a couple episodes and some of the sketches, you know, you start to see that, you know, book from my library, apply off my shelf and sort of use as inspiration. This one is specifically, it's, it's, it's kind of a great book and it's one that I found, it's one that I've had for God, like 20 years. And it's there's a. Comic book writer and artist, graphic novelist named Brian Wood. And he worked with Becky Clonan who's an artist on a series called Channel Zero. And it was Channel Zero sort of stemmed from Brian Wood being in graphic design school. I think he was at Parsons if I remember correctly. Anyhow point being was, you know, you have these thesis projects, you have these sort of kernels of ideas, and so one of the things that he was dabbling with at that time was sort of Gen X, you know, feelings about you know, media and misinformation and influence and all those types of things, kind of in a gritty kind of urban environment. And what that. Precipitated was this sort of draft version of a book that he eventually did called channel Zero. And it's sort of this, you know, good trouble kind of, you know, right at the, you know, you know, kind of the early aughts. And, but what was interesting about it was that ended up being a precursor to DMZ. Which is a show that or another graphic novel that ended up turning into a, a short-lived series, I think on HBO or produced by HBO, Rosario Dawson was in it. Oh, great. Yep, yep. Yeah. And so, but same creator. And what was interesting as I've talked about is I love the, like, where do these ideas come from, you know, from these artists and sort of architects or creators. And so I. I was fortunate to find, I like, enjoyed the book, right? I enjoyed the series, you know, channel Zero to begin with, you know, female protagonist, all these types of things. But there was this effectively kind of build as a sketchbook of these, this was the, this book that you're seeing here called Public Domain was the sketchbook that assembled all the images that, that helped create the world and the world building associated with that story. And so there was photographs and images and xerox copies and hybrid drawings and all these types of things that you're like, oh, wow, this is, this is, you know, this is poster art. This is graffiti, this is how it all becomes kind of a storyline. And in doing that, you know, it made me think of like, I was sort of at a creative impasse, and so I was like, well, you know, what if I did just a, an automatic drawing? You know, kind of inspired by that, that book. And that's where the one on the left comes in, is sort of a, you know, individual with a gas mask on and they're getting ready to do some graffiti and so it's sort of almost like a continuous line drawing and you can kind of see that there and then, you know, and then as I fleshed out that image into an environment it becomes a street scene. Starts to take on these kind of, you know, hyperrealistic, you know, image of a building, but then sort of these, you know, hybrid esque kind of drawings that I do. You know, where, you know, architecture and folly become kind of parasite on the building and then it becomes this larger composition. So that, that was just, you know, starting out with that automatic drawing. Very quick single line to something that gets fleshed out and, you know, the, the style and technique completely changes. And so it's almost like two different people are do, working on the same, IM same image.

Kurt Neiswender: 22:59

Right. Got it. Which is why, I suppose it's because they, they don't necessarily off the cuff. Seem related until you, until your explanation, but the automatic drawing being the key of, of the, the sort of conceptual workflow, right, is you know, the movement of the pen to hand and paper and all, and all that. So very cool. Which, which actually it's, it's, I, I didn't have the connection between this and say, DMZ. And which is always fun to see where influences cross domains from, say, art, art world to film and design and architecture and, and, and those other spatial spatial arts. Which then if we segue over to the side, the sketch on the right, which is a more familiar to me theme, which is. You know, shepherd Ferry and Obey and, and some of the mural art and facade or, you know, kind of gor gorilla takeover of, of sort of mural space. But your take, I don't know if yours is necessarily, is it direct reference or is it a sort of interpretation of a reference in one of the, it's,

Jamie: 24:23

it's a little bit of an interpretation, but I just have to, here's my prop, here's my, my one you know, prop for the day. Gotta bring, gotta bring the, you know, visual aids. So yeah, it, I think Shepherd Fairy's work, you know, as an artist has always been about you know, touching on political themes. I. And I think in sort of that era of things, it's and the era in which we live I think that I look to those artists to see what they're doing. And so he's, he's, he's sort of dabbled in some of those things of late and has been quiet to a certain degree in, in the last few months. But I think some things are starting to trickle out what's. What I appreciate about how his work has evolved as an artist is that a lot of it really did start out as sort of the kind of hero, architect, hero artist, where it was sort of one individual, kind of with an idea and a theme, and he sort of built this little empire around it you know, of collaborators and kind of always kind of acknowledging them to a certain degree. But I think you know what it's evolved into in. Probably in the last 15 years, maybe, you know, maybe a little bit longer is real pure collaborations with other artists. And I think that that's something that, you know, as my own maturity as a designer and artist myself or architect myself, is how can I, how can I more collaborate with somebody who maybe even has something that. Is maybe a disparate take than my own. Maybe their workflow is different, maybe their work or style is different, but I really appreciate it. You know, it's, it's, maybe it's something that I really like, but maybe don't even associate with my own. And so in this particular case for a women's suffrage. Memorial mural, kind of talking about the women's right to vote. Shepherd goes out and gets probably one of the most, I think, interesting women muralists that's out there. She's from Montreal. We've talked about her before. Mm-hmm. But but her work is just sort of really, it has a really. Particular style. It does have sort of a comic book element to it, but at the same time, this portraiture that she's doing is just incredible. And so you, you get these sort of, you know, faces, these portraits that are, you know, have these eyes that are really, really piercing and, and these sort of, you know, these images. And at the same time there's this peeling away or, or application. Of kind of another layer of information. And it's oftentimes sort of almost feels like comic book pages that have been torn or ripped, or that you're kind of either reading on top of or behind, or both. And so in this particular mural in downtown Austin you know, I, I believe it's her largest work that she's ever done to date. But you know, not necessarily his. But I think, you know, this is clearly her leading the charge on, on the image and the composition, and then sort of his execution and sort of subtlety very differential, you know, in a lot of respects, you know, with texture and sort of composition. I just think it's really fabulous. And for, for the month that we're in, for the age that we're in for the year that we're in I, I. Had a lot of thoughts about this. I see this mural often as I'm, you know, either going to work or kind of in downtown. And I wanted to revisit it. So,

Kurt Neiswender: 28:07

yeah, I, I, it's a, it's a, it's really nice sketch, which is what I texted you the other day. Just to, just to say, Hey, you know, I think that is something that we. Don't wanna miss on the, on the podcast. And you know, I was thinking as you were describing that, and the other, you know, the, the previous sketches, the automatic drawing is just for those, especially a lot of my students that are listening you know, automatic drawing is, is considered the, the, the concept of allowing the subconscious to sort of take over the hand and not necessarily be. Trying to draw something that with, with, with an intention of an object, but more like allowing the brain to, to sort of freely associate the movement of the hand to the page relative to the, to the, say the previous, whatever line is previously drawn on the page. You know, look the hand or the the hand eye sort of. React to those continual movements. And therefore it will result in, you know, a, a something or a composition of some sort. And, and so, which is kind of like a, a, looking at your sketch on the left you know, the semblance of some of those things that, you know, they're sort of subliminally. Suggesting the hand to move to, like you mentioned, the, the, the sort of graffiti artist and the, and the gas mask or something like that. Then overlaid with something a little bit more hard line, like a building or formal that we can recognize. And then, then flipping over to the, the collaborative mural, right, which is a mural associated with a building. But being a little bit more formal about it and, and just an interpretation. So, I mean, that's the thing is like, it, it one informs the other and then you kind of go back and forth a little bit. Right. Informing each other. Well,

Jamie: 30:12

yeah, and, and I'd be remiss, I, I didn't say it before, but the, the, the, the artist of the mural that worked with Shepherd Ferry was Sandra Shevalier. And so, right.

Kurt Neiswender: 30:21

Yeah.

Jamie: 30:22

And, and you know, if you're not following her on Instagram if you're not following both of them on Instagram, you absolutely should. But I think that you'll see, sort of, see the, the, what's interesting if you, if you look at them as sort of two different distinct artists, is that they do have very, very different ways of working. And very, two very, very different styles. But I think that that sort of mutual respect and maybe even admiration, you know, I would assume admiration is kind of the way that I entered this as well as like that sort of uniqueness of the end product and then realizing that's these two people that I find interesting. And kind of pulling the two things together I think is is, is pretty fantastic. So and, and I, and I'm glad that I was able to kind of try and render it at least in this kind of a way. You know, I, I think it's, it, it's something that's sort of unique

Kurt Neiswender: 31:20

to the, I think we might have lost Jamie. This is a first for us. Oh. Hopefully the weather is fine down there. Yikes. Okay, there we go. So I got a text from Jamie said the power is power dipped. Might, might be out. So, hold bear with me folks. Sorry about that. Oh, there we go. All right. I got word Jamie's. Okay. But he did lose power, so we're gonna. Put a pin in the episode for tonight. Thank you all. Hope you gained something out of the conversation about the sketches and as normal, we'll, you know, always post the sketch on with the audio upload so that you have something to look at in, in the conversation. But we will look forward to you talking to you again in the near future. Thank you.