182 - DEFCON, City Planning, and Collaborative Sketching

In this episode, hosts discuss the origins and humor of a DEFCON scale in their discussions, delve into city planning debates with a focus on Austin's highway project and its implications, and share detailed insights about future urban development. They also brainstorm ideas and showcase collaborative sketching, highlighting the creative process behind urban design. The episode wraps up with plans for an upcoming event in Boston, blending architecture with local culture and community activities.

00:00 Getting Ready to Go Live
00:43 Defcon Levels Explained
02:50 House Preparation and Moving Struggles
05:15 Coffee Talk and Boston Plans
07:16 Hockey Playoffs Discussion
10:10 Conference Swag and Activities
17:14 The Architect's Wardrobe Dilemma
17:39 Shoutout to Chris Novelli
18:17 ICA Event Details
20:43 Discussing the Rococo Theme
21:54 Roads and Intersections Sketch
22:52 Austin's Highway Dilemma
28:08 The Cap and Stitch Debate
31:27 Comparing to Boston's Big Dig
36:07 Collaborative Sketching
41:51 Student Sketch Competitions
45:10 Cormick's Chicago Tour
46:35 Final Thoughts and Farewell

Transcript

Kurt Neiswender 0:37

Will you feel warmed up enough to, to go show it?

Jamie 0:40

I think so. How do you feel?

Kurt Neiswender 0:42

I'm, I'm always ready. I saw the eye roll though. Don't, don't, don't, don't realize I didn't catch the eye roll. I saw it.

Jamie 0:50

So, so sometimes you're not looking, sometimes you're not looking at the camera and I can get an eye roll in.

Kurt Neiswender 0:55

I was only, I was only not looking at the camera when my real realtor was calling. Okay. I, I got distracted now. I put it, put it down. All right. Alright, everyone, we're going live. Oh, that's the end stream button. Don't hit that one.

Jamie 1:10

That's like the nuclear option.

Kurt Neiswender 1:12

It turns red. It's Defcon. It's a Defcon.

Jamie 1:16

Are we gonna do a Defcon update in the episode? We haven't done one in a while.

Kurt Neiswender 1:20

Yeah, we should. We should. Okay. Sounds good. Jamie. What's your Defcon? Is that a, is that a no answer?

Jamie 1:26

I'm going Defcon, I'm going Defcon two, we're at two.

Kurt Neiswender 1:31

You know, I already forgot the, the scale. Is it, is one bad or five bad?

Jamie 1:36

One's bad,

Kurt Neiswender 1:38

but is is five worse or less

Jamie 1:40

bad? No, no, no. Five is, five is like it. There's like, like fluffy clouds and rainbows and unicorns and like, like ice cream sundaes and, yeah.

Kurt Neiswender 1:57

Okay. Okay. You're right. You are correct. I had to, I had to fact check you.

Jamie 2:02

You were fact checking. I could, I could. I could hear the, I could hear the quick,

Kurt Neiswender 2:06

quick, click,

Jamie 2:07

click,

Kurt Neiswender 2:08

click. One. You're Defcon too. We've done, we have our Defcon DEFCON updates.

Jamie 2:15

Well, I mean, DEFCON two, like in my perception of, of where we are in the world right now. Yeah. It's DEFCON two I, I mean, I'm still, I mean, I've, I've actually, I've actually moved from when we did our last update of DEFCON three to DEFCON two.

Kurt Neiswender 2:35

Yeah. So the button, like, you know, there's the button, you know the option. Mm-hmm. And so, but then there's always like a little cover over the button. Right. So I think DEFCON three is touching the cover. Defcon two, the, the cover is clearly open,

Jamie 2:52

right?

Kurt Neiswender 2:53

Def, and then, and then fingers ready to push

Jamie 2:56

Defcon. One means you're like, you're poised. You're poised to

Kurt Neiswender 3:00

push. Ready to push.

Jamie 3:01

Yeah.

Kurt Neiswender 3:02

Do you remember what I said on our last go round? The def kind. Well,

Jamie 3:07

you're, you're kind of easy breezy about this stuff, so you were kind of like three, maybe four

Kurt Neiswender 3:13

to four. Three to four,

Jamie 3:14

yeah.

Kurt Neiswender 3:15

Yeah. I Aren't you familiar with what ostriches do you know, bury your heads in the sand? I don't, I don't do defcon. I I'd say, I'd say within, in the midst for those that were in the green room pre-show and I was lamenting you know, the mess in my house'cause I'm packing and moving to new house audio struggles, internet struggles, furniture struggles. I'd say I'm at a Defcon, at least three, probably two for house, for house preparation. How

Jamie 3:47

about that? So in, so in your first world problems, you're a def Two and a half. You're def two, right?

Kurt Neiswender 3:54

Is it like this, you know, two and a half?

Jamie 3:57

I'm not sure.

Kurt Neiswender 3:58

Three. That's a, yeah. How do you, do you count? How

Jamie 4:01

do you count down? How do you count down? Like if you have to go, oops. 5, 4, 4, 3, 3, 2, 2,

Kurt Neiswender 4:10

1.

Jamie 4:11

Or do you go? Or do you go five? Oops. Five. No, no four. See,

Kurt Neiswender 4:17

I can't do the pinky bend either.

Jamie 4:19

Yeah. See, it's like, my God. Yeah. It's like, yeah,

Kurt Neiswender 4:22

but the German, the Europeans, right? They do 5, 4, 3. No, they, they would, the thumb is A, is part of three, and then they do two.

Jamie 4:34

Well, there's also, yeah, I mean, have you ever an Italian, there's also American sign language in there too, but Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Kurt Neiswender 4:41

Yeah. I only know the one, the one sign language of a SL, you know, with the hand gestures, but I can't show it on camera.

Jamie 4:49

Oh, okay. Thanks.

Kurt Neiswender 4:51

You know, you know pg the one, the one pg,

Jamie 4:52

pg 13. Try to keep it pg.

Kurt Neiswender 4:54

Try to keep pg, you know, for all the, all the children's out there. Yeah. So, so Jamie, our show show. We have our guest, our guest in the, in the guest chair. Ellie is waiting to, waiting to join the podcast. But

Jamie 5:08

yeah, El Ellie's, like, I don't know what you're thinking about dad, but like, you know, all this talk about the weather and climate, you know, puts me into DEFCON two just to begin with.

Kurt Neiswender 5:17

Well, her food situation is Defcon one at all times,

Jamie 5:21

right? Well, there's that, right?

Kurt Neiswender 5:23

Look at her. I mean, look. She's starving to death clearly.

Jamie 5:27

Yeah. Yeah. See those wheels turning in, in her mind. Don't say the word food too loudly.'cause then you know who, who you wake over here.

Kurt Neiswender 5:35

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a good point. Takey. Shakey. Sorry.

Jamie 5:38

So,

Kurt Neiswender 5:38

and yeah, the boss, the boss has gotta feed. So what do you what do, what's in your, your mug of mug of Defcon?

Jamie 5:47

Well, I mean, it, you know, it's, I told you that I had gotten the Grackle, so I'm still drinking the Grackle. But the Grackle bag is pretty low, so I have to make a decision come. Yeah. Like, come tomorrow, you're at a crossroads.

Kurt Neiswender 6:03

Well, I had to, I had to I finished the, what, what was it called? Early Morning Blend or something, I think from black Diesel. Coffee out of Detroit that is over. Those bags are just too small. And you know, one thing when I'm teaching,

Jamie 6:18

are they the petite bags?

Kurt Neiswender 6:20

Well, when they're only selling one size. Can you call it petite? Yes. It's like a bag though. That's not enough. It's like

Jamie 6:29

a teaser. Is are, is this like a gateway drug? It's

Kurt Neiswender 6:32

also too expensive for the for the quantity. But, you know, I'm not gonna complain much. But in light of that, and inspired by our, our visit to Boston next week had to go with an East Coast classic. The original blend. The donkey, the Dunkin Donuts, the dunk.

Jamie 6:54

Yes. I would we're gonna have to hit a dunking Yeah.

Kurt Neiswender 6:57

A donkey. That's how the, the Bostonians would say it in Southie. Right? Really? It's all mm-hmm. Donkey.

Jamie 7:06

Okay.

Kurt Neiswender 7:07

Yeah.

Jamie 7:07

Okay.

Kurt Neiswender 7:08

That doesn't sound

Jamie 7:09

real to me, but okay.

Kurt Neiswender 7:10

We go to the donkey and get some shin heat.

Jamie 7:13

Well, there you go. Right.

Kurt Neiswender 7:15

I mean, it's perfect. It's perfect. I like that. I'll go put that on a t-shirt. Be prepared people, the, the AI conference t-shirt might come with some extras.

Jamie 7:25

I mean, you know, trademark

Kurt Neiswender 7:27

infringements,

Jamie 7:28

but no, I mean, we, we have been known, like I I, in honor of us going next week, I decided to, to, to get out the release one t-shirt for us. So

Kurt Neiswender 7:38

yeah, mine's in the wash. It's in preparation for next week,

Jamie 7:42

so I'll do some laundry before I go.

Kurt Neiswender 7:44

Well, I, I would hope so. One would hope, Jamie.

Jamie 7:47

Thank you. Thank you.

Kurt Neiswender 7:48

So do you have a, do you have a, a horse in any of the hockey race right now in the playoffs?

Jamie 7:56

Well, I mean, I was, I, well, I, I, I deferred to my father and sort of asked him, you know, where he is in this.'Cause the Canadians, you know, they got destroyed not really destroyed, but I mean, they, they got run over a bit by, by the caps. So, which was gonna happen, I mean, you know, capitals are, you know, just scoring machine. So, you know, Canadians are, you know, at least they're back in the playoffs, you know, and all that stuff. That's good. I think that dad is rooting for Dallas you know, kind of likes the stars. You know, sort of as a, as a Texas default a home, a home team. That's cool. Yeah, it's kind of a home team. You know, and, and they, you know,

Kurt Neiswender 8:38

well, sorry, the Dallas Stars were used to be the

Jamie 8:41

Minnesota North Stars.

Kurt Neiswender 8:44

Yes, I was. I was hoping they were a Canadian brand, but they were not that far north.

Jamie 8:51

No, no, Minnesota North Stars. But I think, you know, they're, they're playing against Edmonton and so that's, you know, that's Edmonton's a good team. Edmonton knocked them out of the playoffs last year. I think, you know, it's the Edmonton's up to one in the series. So you know, Edmonton's probably going to beat them again, but I mean, you know, you know, who knows? But hopefully it

Kurt Neiswender 9:16

interesting.

Jamie 9:17

Hopefully it keeps it interesting, you know, it goes deeper. But you know, I, I think the thing dad is like me in in some of that where, you know, you, you, you kind of at some point also wanna root for a Canadian team.'cause there aren't that many of them. You kind of want them to go, so,

Kurt Neiswender 9:33

yeah. Yeah, for sure. So there's Edmonton. Is there another is more Canadian teams in, or No,

Jamie 9:40

I, it's the only series I've been watching.

Kurt Neiswender 9:42

Oh, okay. I haven't, I mean I just was trying to go to my, my hockey expert co-host. Yeah. Well, I mean

Jamie 9:49

the, the Maple Leaf we're in, but you know, who is Toronto? Really a team. So

Kurt Neiswender 9:55

there, we,

Jamie 9:56

now we're talking do they really even count? So there's

Kurt Neiswender 9:59

some Canadian, Canadian rivalries going. So, all right. That was I, and sorry for the, the sports non sequitur.'cause now when we, when I show the, we're gonna pivot back over to the conference and talk about Boston a little bit, but, you know.

Jamie 10:15

Yeah. You know,

Kurt Neiswender 10:16

unless you have a good segue for us. I,

Jamie 10:18

no, I just no, I really don't. Oh, I, I

Kurt Neiswender 10:21

caught you off guard

Jamie 10:23

other, well, I mean, Boston original six, you know, so they were one of the original six. But that's, that's about all I got to them. So, sorry. You, you caught me. Caught me. Unawares. Unawares. Even unawares.

Kurt Neiswender 10:35

Well, well, we'll, we'll, yeah. Well, I'll, I'll take the hit for that one'cause you know, I I shouldn't have, shouldn't have threw the wild card in there. But anyway, back to Boston. So, sh Should I, should I show the show and tell. Or do you wanna? Right.

Jamie 10:50

I mean, this is the time. I mean, you know, we're the flash, you know? Yeah. This is like, I mean, you know, we've got the images on the screen. You know, Kurt's got some surprise swag. What does that look like?

Kurt Neiswender 11:03

What

Jamie 11:03

Is it swag? Is it swag? It's not swag.

Kurt Neiswender 11:06

I think it could be swag.

Jamie 11:08

It's kind of like swag, but it's like interactive. It's, it's,

Kurt Neiswender 11:11

it's not yet swag because it is, what it is is a little cocktail napkin. Well, in fact, a whole box of cocktail napkins with podcast logo and a couple of hashtags and it's blank, which for architects is a playground for a sketch.

Jamie 11:34

Yeah. Consider this your invite. If you see one of us. We will have them on our person at all times. It's like, you know, it, it's a rule. We've agreed. And, and we would be happy to share one of these with you so that we could see a sketch whether you want do it right then or back in your hotel or, or, or since,

Kurt Neiswender 11:59

or, or me as you,

Jamie 12:01

or, or on Friday.

Kurt Neiswender 12:03

Oh, Friday for sure. Yeah. Let me give you a, a closeup, Mr. Demil.

Jamie 12:08

Thank you. Thank you. Is

Kurt Neiswender 12:10

this is our teaser poster? Is it, is it, is it a poster? If it's on Instagram? You know what we need, Jamie. Remember when we did the walking tours with ai, the Young Architects Forum?

Jamie 12:24

Do we need signs?

Kurt Neiswender 12:25

We need little sticks. Yeah. Stick signs poster. What do you call those Little?

Jamie 12:30

We are only only getting the stick signs if Ben Caden comes along and it and is nominated as the tour guide

Kurt Neiswender 12:38

and it's gotta be made out of a drumstick.

Jamie 12:40

Yeah.

Kurt Neiswender 12:41

Although Ben's a bass player, so, but, you know, drumstick music could be cool. We can make that happen. Little bit of foam core. We'll just go raid the Boston Architectural College dumpster for some foam core. But Anyw who, so we have cocktail napkin, we have Walking, walking, talking. Tour that in it starts at the ICA at the, at the waterfront. And we will, it will terminate. Well not terminate. That's a, that's a little bit of a intense work there that will, that will mosey on into a party. No, it's, you know, at the ICA, which is their, what do they call it? First Friday?

Jamie 13:21

It's their first Friday. And it's for pride month. This and it's their Rococo a Gogo. Everyone loves some Rococo. So

Kurt Neiswender 13:31

I just like saying the word, you know, I think most people hopefully Yeah, koco

Jamie 13:37

Well, and especially with my, you know, my poor pronunciation abilities, like the fact that I can get that out, like, you know, with a straight face, you know, points and not stumbling over, you know, the extra O'S and C's and extra stuff in there. Yeah. I'm, I'm proud of myself. But it's art, right? So like, maybe, maybe, maybe just staying on brand for me. Right?

Kurt Neiswender 14:01

It's'cause Yeah.'cause it's a, you're familiarity with the territory of the Rococo, but it Yeah. Clear focus. This is a fun,

Jamie 14:08

it's, it's art and music and so yeah. It'll be fun.

Kurt Neiswender 14:11

Yeah. And, and so, and then with that, I guess, let me zoom back out a little bit. Our our, our fun, our, another fun piece of swag, which is for sale. If you go to the link, I, this is the only sh the only pitch I'll make. Mid, mid podcast commercial. There is a QR code up here in one of these corners for if you wanna buy a T-shirt. And you know, so this is the imagery for this year's. T-shirt. T-shirt, Jamie. Right. A la Jamie. This is a, this is like a a hundred percent Jamie design. Well, yeah, I had, I had a, I had another concept. Didn't win, didn't win the the vote.

Jamie 14:53

It got super close though.

Kurt Neiswender 14:55

It was, it was, it was sent to the bench.

Jamie 14:58

It was, it, it made it to the out rounds. Let's be honest. Like, it, it, it, you know, it wasn't just in like group play or like qualifying. It made it to the out rounds. It just didn't, didn't quite, didn't quite make it to the final,

Kurt Neiswender 15:12

you know, what's fun about. Yeah. Well, thanks Jamie. I appreciate the I appreciate the nod. I, I don't think it was it wasn't gonna beat this sketch or or t-shirt concept. Yeah. So. Which, which was, I was gonna say the so what we have here is if your fans have run the jewels, which I think both of us are this is a fun, and, and hopefully if Mr. Render is watching, he's not gonna, not gonna try and hit us with a copyright straight. It's different enough, right, Jamie?

Jamie 15:42

It's different enough, you know, I mean, you know, here's the thing, right? It's, it's an homage, it's a mashup.

Kurt Neiswender 15:49

Homage.

Jamie 15:50

Homage, you know? Yeah. It's a, it's a, it's a mashup, you know, it's a, you know, classic logo on logo. And seemed, kind of, seemed kind of, you know, appropriate for the duo of, of our podcast. So this is a riff, a riff also on our version two T-shirt from last year. And so you know, it's always kind of nice to kind of revisit your old work and, and, and refine and tweak. Mm-hmm. And have fun with it

Kurt Neiswender 16:21

because there is a sort of a thread that is weaving through that all the years. We've got the original t-shirt, which you're wearing. The 2023 was sort of like the original with additional sort of artwork. And then the third one, a little bit of a pivot iconography, you know, so there's this nice little thread that's of course black and white

Jamie 16:46

got be.

Kurt Neiswender 16:48

Which, which it has to be, I, I am I with all my Lawrence tech t-shirts too, that, that are all black and white as well. I've, I'm like, I'm building, rebuilding my black architecture closet.

Jamie 17:01

It, it's, sometimes you just have to, sometimes you have to lean into who you are, so, yeah. It's, it's okay.

Kurt Neiswender 17:07

You know, we had to, we, I know in the past, in the, on the podcast, we had talked about our, our colors. Like Danielle was helping me pick what colors of clothing match my skin tone, you know, and, and black wasn't one of them. Yeah. The sad, so I had to get rid of a lot of black,

Jamie 17:25

and you're like, but, but, but

Kurt Neiswender 17:27

yeah, it's coming back. It's coming back in. And she's, she does a lot of makeup artistry, so it's another very creative field, which also they tend to wear a lot of black. In, in, in, you know, on, on a gig. And I was starting to feel like it was a bit unfair that, you know, Danielle gets to wear black, but not me. There you the architect. So there you go. Yeah. I mean, hence, hence, fair is fair.

Jamie 17:52

Right? So t-shirts be damned. We're going, we're going black and white. So

Kurt Neiswender 17:58

I, I mean, that's all I got, man. I mean, I might even make a midday, I might have enough to have a midday wardrobe change. Ooh. And still have enough black and white t-shirts. That's, that's how good it's gonna be. Oh, we should, should give a shout out to our friend Chris Novelli and who is in the Boston region, a friend of the podcast. He, he has already purchased two of the T-shirt.

Jamie 18:26

There you go.

Kurt Neiswender 18:27

So we, so thank you, Chris.

Jamie 18:29

I mean. We're, we're pretty, pretty proud of it. Like, you know, honestly, we, we, you know, it's a, it's a fast collaborative process sometimes when we're both, you know, you know, working so

Kurt Neiswender 18:41

firing on one cylinder.

Jamie 18:44

Exactly. It's, it's all that extra coffee in our life, so that's that fucking donuts. Yeah, I know. So, so yes, so please, on Friday at five 30 go over to the ICA and there is a little restaurant like not two minute walk from it, right on the water side called Real House. We're gonna use that as sort of our rally point. And, you know, maybe grab a beverage and hang out with some folks for a few minutes, maybe do a sketch on a cocktail napkin, you know, branded with our logo. And then bust out the mics, get outside talk about some architecture go over to the museum. Talk more about some architecture hang out some more, and then do the after party for First Fridays. Koco a Gogo. There is a, there is a ticket required for that through the museum. And we have a link on our Insta page for that. So yeah definitely recommend it. We're gonna do it. Walk, talk, drink, tour. It'll be fun.

Kurt Neiswender 19:47

Should also say the, all the ticket proceeds all go to the museum. Not, not to us.

Jamie 19:52

No, not to us. No. We have no, yeah. Yes. Thank you. We have no, we're just trying to

Kurt Neiswender 19:57

engage with a little piece of culture in, in the Boston area.

Jamie 20:01

Yeah. And it looks like a really fun party. So, I mean, for those who have, you know, have their museums in their own towns you know, there's always sort of that first Friday, or it's a first Thursday or a something. The sculpture garden that. That I have talked about many times on the podcast and, and love and have had, was fortunate to have, you know, some work in for a, a, a little time. They have a great monthly after dark and they sort of, they're they're, they're an outdoor sculpture museum, so they get, get the, the evening lights on and open up the garden once a month. Usually that's on a Tuesday night. And so super fun, you know, everybody's got that kind of local museum that they love. And ICA was one that sort of stood out to us as a building that both of us were interested in seeing, talking about with friends. So if you're a fellow podcaster. Who we have reached out to, if we missed you on our last couple reach outs, you know don't feel offended. We, we wanna see anybody who is doing what we do and love. And then any other architects who you don't, you know, you can just be a listener and a friend. That's, that's cool too. So yeah, join us. It'll be fun. Friday night, five 30.

Kurt Neiswender 21:15

We gotta get, once we get into the Rococo party, we gotta get some, some of the party goers to make some sketches too.

Jamie 21:23

Oh, I thought you were gonna say we have to get patterned wigs.

Kurt Neiswender 21:25

Nah, I, I, that ship has sailed for me at least.

Jamie 21:29

No, no, no. The wig, not the, the whole wig, like the whole Oh, I know, I

Kurt Neiswender 21:33

know. But yeah. It would be so, so con, such a contrast

Jamie 21:38

kind of a whole, well, that, well, we all need to, I'm,

Kurt Neiswender 21:41

you know what I'm gonna be reading on the airplane. Is all the primer. I, I'll probably asking chat, GPT what is Rococo and the characteristics of Rococo because I, you know, I don't wanna get my, my period messed up, you know, you know, get the time to timescale wrong. Mm-hmm. Clearly a Victorian Jamie. All the

Jamie 22:03

isms. It's all the isms.

Kurt Neiswender 22:05

How could I, how could I go Victorian instead of broco? Right, right. All well, well that sounds And don't

Jamie 22:13

go and don't go baroque. So, I mean, it's all,

Kurt Neiswender 22:16

you might go baroque trying to go Rococo.

Jamie 22:19

Mm-hmm.

Kurt Neiswender 22:20

How do you like that Dad joke?

Jamie 22:22

Dad's a Yeah, that definitely. Yeah. It's,

Kurt Neiswender 22:24

it's a, it's a, it's perfect. So, so, so you mentioned in the, in the, in the warmup pre-show roads were coming back into the conversation. And so we have here a sketch of two roads intersecting. Okay. End of story. Right?

Jamie 22:42

Well actually multiple roads and multiple layers of roads. Oh, yes, yes. Yeah. Yes. All intersecting. I I was,

Kurt Neiswender 22:48

I was being very facetious.

Jamie 22:51

Yeah. You can get me this. He is gonna get me all fired up now. So

Kurt Neiswender 22:55

tell us about the roads, Jamie and this wonderful loosed quick sketch. It's really nice sketch. I like, I like a good aerial perspective, you know that bird's eye view. So

Jamie 23:08

have talked

Kurt Neiswender 23:09

What, what's the bird seeing? Jimmy, do you about it

Jamie 23:10

before, but I don't think, believe

Kurt Neiswender 23:12

Can you hear me still? Can you hear me still? I got, yes, I heard a click. I heard, I heard you. Okay,

Jamie 23:17

good.

Kurt Neiswender 23:18

All right. Say that, say that again. Yeah. And then we'll make sure the, the, the, we'll edit that little glitch out. So,

Jamie 23:25

no, I, I, I just was gonna say is that, you know, I, I've mentioned this whole dilemma in Austin to you before, but I don't believe we've ever talked about it on the podcast. And so yeah, this is a, this is a relatively quick sketch Ariel you know, surprisingly fast for me. But I've been looking at this project for a while and kind of lamenting just the apparent seesaw battle in the community and on politically about this particular project. So the. Austin, downtown Austin is like many, many cities in the United States had that highway run through it cutting off different, different parts of the city. So in our case, it runs north south cutting off the city. Majority of downtown that folks may be familiar with if they visited is the west side of the highway. And then east side was, you know, predominantly African American and, and Latino community. Which has also, you know, been, you know, drastically changing over the last couple decades especially in the last 10, 15 years. But aside, you know, but those changes, you know, pale in comparison to this project. So, you know, Austin traditionally has, has been that city that has been really reluctant to development. And, and I mean development not from a development like developer, like buildings and things, but development in terms of infrastructure. And so I think it's always sort of seen itself sort of on, you know, like a little big city. And, you know, always, you know, not necessarily wanting to, to grow too fast and that roads and highways and transit and light rail and, you know, all those things, you know, potentially, you know, would signal that the, the city was getting too big. You know, if, if, if, if those kinds of projects came in, however, sometimes you have to address some of those issues and you gotta start creating, you know, creating some solutions for things, you know, otherwise you get too far along and, and then you're, then you're really kind of, you know, backed into a corner. And so lit, literally what's happened in Austin is the state, the interstate, you know, it's a state highway sy federal highway, you know, state highway, you know run

Kurt Neiswender 25:56

35. It's a federal highway.

Jamie 25:58

It's I 35. Yeah. But it's, you know, so our, our Texas Department of Transportation who, you know, kind of builds, maintains all these things with federal dollars and whatever, and state dollars, et cetera. They need to, they need to make this highway bigger. There's not a whole lot of room to make it bigger. Uhhuh there's also, there's also portions of it that, that they call it the upper lower deck split. So there's parts of it that go up and parts of it go down, which then really further exacerbates the divide between east and west. You have a lot more development happening both east and west in some of the more traditional communities, but also in the downtown area. A lot more people living downtown. You have the University, university of Texas, you know, abuts the interstate. Mm-hmm. So they're kind of landlocked and they have land on both sides of, of the highway as well. So lots of different development pressures. And if you were to be on the east side and want to go to the west side and not be in a motor vehicle, you're taking your life in your hands. It's, mm-hmm. The, the pedestrian crossings at bridges and whatnot, or even at grade are just, they're, it's not a good, it's not a good thing. For anybody. So all that long-winded answer to say is this project was moving forward, whether anyone liked it or not. And there's definitely parts of it to like, and there's definitely parts of it to not like,'cause there's a lot of things that, there's a lot more displacement that had to go on, but once, once this train left the station, like this highway project was gonna happen. And even though I'm not a big fan of a lot of the things that it entails in terms of displacement, right? They're sinking, they're sinking the whole highway uhhuh. So even portions that were never s sunk before are now being sunk. It's getting widened access points on either side, so that's making it even wider, which causes more displacement. So like all your access roads. So there was gonna be like a big chasm of concrete, you know, in the, in the same location. And what the debate was is, oh wow, could this be the opportunity to cap that highway?

Kurt Neiswender 28:20

Mm-hmm.

Jamie 28:21

And actually put a deck over the top of it and then build it in such a way that it would allow for development on top, similar to what we've seen in a lot of other major cities in the us, including Dallas to the north right.

Kurt Neiswender 28:37

Yeah.

Jamie 28:38

And so, so that was the debate. And you know, there's sort of two terminologies that they use from a highway development point of point of view in this, they call it a cap and a stitch. So the cap is kind of a large north south deck. Mm-hmm. That effectively becomes an at grade development zone for typically parks or low-rise buildings. So maybe a one or two story building. Lots of shade, amenities, trees, you know, water features, all the things you know, that you would associate with, you know, outdoor space and maybe even some commercial development potentially, you know, to get kind of creative about it. The stitch is where you've got these at grade crossings, which are effectively bridges over the chasm of concrete mm-hmm. That aren't just a vehicular. Crossing, but actually become wider and so that there could be some level of shade or amenity. You know, and so to really facilitate moving pedestrians also east and west you know, across, across that zone. So the, the, what happened was last week there was a a go, no go vote. The city of Austin had to decide to invest in the foundational structure to eventually cap the highway. So if they didn't choose to do it now, they'd miss the opportunity to put in the structure that would support that deck. Right? Yeah. Because I mean, literally, dude, there is like, they are moving dirt. They're digging out concrete. They are, they're, they, this construction is. Is already moving. This isn't like on paper question, right? Right. This is construction that's already started. Yeah. So it's like

Kurt Neiswender 30:35

to avoid a change order, a massive change order,

Jamie 30:38

right.

Kurt Neiswender 30:39

Vote Yes,

Jamie 30:41

exactly. So, or a

Kurt Neiswender 30:42

feature change order. Yeah.

Jamie 30:43

It's is a generational project. I mean, you know, certainly the, the, the, the negative and the downside is that like many cities as well, this isn't the only problem the city has or the only question of investment that the city needs to make. You know, there's, there's a, you know, a growing homeless population. There's a lot of economic inequality you know, job creation, you know, economic investment in other things, other parts of town. You know, there's, there's lots of other infrastructure that needs to probably be addressed as well. That already exists. So it's it. It's a dilemma that a lot of places have. But I think in this particular case, I'm just thankful that they realized that if they didn't do it, they'd never get a chance to do it. And, and by doing it, you know, by doing it now, they at least give themselves the opportunity to realize, you know, things are going to continue to evolve. Yeah. Things are gonna continue to change, you know, and this was your moment. So, you know, yay City council in an eight to eight to two vote, so

Kurt Neiswender 31:50

Oh, that's good. Yeah, that's, I mean, that's really fascinating. I mean, that's a massive, it's like, well, it's actually kind of a, a good tie in again to Boston, right. Little did, you know, but I mean, I, I actually, when I did my Master's of Urban Design studies, I studied the, the big dig. Through Boston, which was what it was, you know, they built this massive greenway and buried the freeway. That was kind of, it cuts through, you know, the, the, the center of Boston or the, the, you know, right through the downtown and they buried it all and then capped it with a nice, and, and the greenway, I've been, I've been through, I don't know, you probably have too, right? Have you walked the, the Greenway? Mm-hmm. It is quite nice. It's a very, it's, it's, it, it, it actually is way more serene than I thought it was gonna be. I thought it was gonna feel like very chaotic, you know?'cause there's still roads around it and all that, right? But it actually was quite. Quite comfortable. And, and there's these moments where you're kind of like immersed in a little more nature along the way. And there's bits of art and things like that, so,

Jamie 33:04

well, and I mean, that, and that particular project was so massive. But that project also was one of the first ones, right? Yeah. And so they've learned, you know, they've learned a lot since then, right? I mean, you know, literally as Austin is taking this vote, you know, this past week, Dallas is already like excuse me hold my beer. You know, they, they're like, they're capping their second highway right now. They're, they're already doing it. So they, they capped one in downtown. It's got a park and an amenity on it. It's a little bit on the smaller side, but it's hugely successful. So now they're doing one on the south side of town near their zoo which is gonna kind of connect. Some cultural amenities to other, other neighborhoods kind of in the area. So it's, I, these are, you know, these are, this is what design means, this is what design matters, you know, for in, in Austin's case, if, if they build out the whole thing, which is still kind of up in the air, you could have 25 acres of new public land, you know, as opposed to, you know, chasm of concrete and cars. So,

Kurt Neiswender 34:17

yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, I, I, I think it's cool and you know, hopefully I mean, you can't compare the costs, right?'cause the big dig, you know, the part of my research, right, you know, is, oh, it was wildly expensive. Like more than double, you know, the original budget. But like you said, it was, it was the first time. Anything like that was really attempted. And, you know, and then cost escalations and, and unknowns and stuff like that always will happen. But the idea of investing in the infrastructure, like you were saying, I think the key is making the smart decision upfront to have that in your back pocket or else you're gonna be paying more to make that decision in the future if you don't do it now. And, and that's being smart about your, say, civic infrastructure or your, you know, council, your, you know, people that don't necessarily know a whole lot about how these things are put together like we do, right? We're not engineers, roadway engineers, but as architects we understand, understand enough about the construction process that you know, it's gonna, if you do some things upfront, even if you don't utilize them right away, it's gonna save you so much more. Save you the headaches that you would have later if you make that sort of decision upfront. And, and, and we do it, you know, at much smaller scales on buildings, you know, plan for say future electrical or, you know, future infrastructural storm water improvements and, you know, expansions and so on. And, and, and so it's all about like convincing the the, the client or the develop the person that's gonna be putting the money down, you know, to make that longer term or longer view projection versus the short term.

Jamie 36:05

Short term. And it's also, you know, and, and as you're sort of talking about buildings, it's that sort of life lifecycle moment where, you know, these buildings that we're designing today, you know, if we're, if we're designing them so specific, so site specific, so program specific, I. And we're sort of doing a disservice, you know, to the light, that building because it's, it's likely gonna need to be altered, changed, even if it stays the same function. You know, advent of new technology or, you know, you know, other things. You know, all, all those things are yeah, code, you know, just, you know, life, you know, whatever. It, I do wanna give you a shout out though, is that so as I was describing this sort of infrastructure dilemma in the city of Austin and kind of bringing the listeners kind of into my world for a moment and hearing kind of my passion about it Kurt was drawing over my drawing on the screen. So this is a benefit of those folks who only listen to the podcast and, and like how we describe things. Thank you. Thank you for listening. But those who watch us on. On the, on the Twitters? No, no, we're not on Twitters anymore. On the YouTube and, and the Twitch. Yeah, no. So we, we seriously, we do we do livestream you know, both on Twitch and YouTube. But it's, you know, when we're doing that we are looking at the, the actual sketches. Also a place where we bring in the props and show folks those on camera. But yeah, I, I just, I wanna say that, you know, I really appreciated,'cause you, as you were talking, you know, as I was talking and you were sketching, it was great because you were sort of diagramming out the things that I was saying that were in the sketch and kind of locating them. And can you s describe a little bit of what, what you were thinking while you were doing what you were doing?

Kurt Neiswender 37:55

Well, the first thing as I guess, thanks Yeah. To, to, to dissect it a little bit was I was, I was kind of struck by the. The shade structures that I started to see. And then I started, I picked out some of the, the more obvious ones like along say like the roadway, sidewalk of space for, for maybe a bus stop or something like that. And then I started noticing awnings and, and I was, as, as you were talking about the bigger picture of the, the project, it, it did remind me of like, you know, a good awning is, is, is a nice feature. And we, you know, we've looked at a lot of your main street building projects that you're consulting on through the state and, and the you know, the concept of an awning, a bit of cover, little bit of shade, you know, can go a long way to, to sort of creating this identity a, a visual identity that. People are familiar with. I, I, most people I would imagine are familiar with, you know, a nice trellis or awning or a, a pergola. So I started sort of sketching over and, and you have these sort of, I, I assume this is maybe a sketch of a potential rendered vision for the site, if that one, if something like that exists. So there's like a little bit of a bandshell maybe, and then there's this sort of porch. And then so then I, but then, so after I, I was just sort of identifying those elements. I did circle some trees, but then I thought it was getting a little too busy, so I took those off. But, but then you were describing the detail of the, the construction, right? So there's the, the cap portion, which is this sort of salmon colored boundary, and then the stitch, which is the, the bisecting or the. Maybe not bisecting.'cause it's, it's really tying the two halves together over top of the, the freeway below. And so in green, you know, it, it just diagram the, the sort of pedestrian right of ways adjacent to the road with arrows describing, you know, this, this sort of connection, the connectivity across, across that, that concrete channel, tunnel chasm that you were talking about. So, yeah, and I thought, you know, I was like, well, you know, maybe I'll take a break in case Jamie didn't want me to doodle all to all over top of his drawing. But

Jamie 40:21

dude, do you know how I, I've said it before and I totally mean it. Is that, you know, a a sketch drawing is not a sacred thing. It's, you know, it's a collaborative process. So I, I am not offended. I, I love to see how other people interact with it and what they're thinking. And the fact that you picked up on sort of the awnings and the trellis and then kind of even went to the different scale for the porch is, and realizing that sort of, that super scaled porch kind of as a community amenity. It's, you know, as I was drawing this, this sketch today kind of thinking about this vote and thinking about all the diagrams and all the things I've read, you know, online about this project and all the different people kind of weighing in with their versions of reality for this, you know, this proposed reality. I was really sort of struck by, I. And we're, I know we're gonna do this in a future episode, but I was sort of struck by the relationship to this year's American pavilion theme of the porch at the Venice Biennale and saying, you know, how distinctly American in terms of architecture, you know, both from a, a vernacular but also, you know, this sort of cultural and political moment that we find ourselves in that, you know, a place to gather, you know, like you said, kind of a little bit of, a little bit of shade, you know, a little bit of cover. You know, to, to do those types of things, have those kinds of gatherings is kind of special. And, you know, maybe will get me off of Defcon two. You know, maybe we can, you know, maybe we can move back up the. The latter there, but yeah, I, you know, thanks, thanks for sketching on it. I, I just, I had to, I had to make sure, you know, the listeners knew, you know, what you were doing as you were kind of, you know, quietly, you know, drawing away. Yeah.

Kurt Neiswender 42:11

Thanks. Yeah. So I'll, I'm gonna do more of that. You know what it did like doing it re I was using my mouse, which isn't as fun as say, like even a the iPad and iPad pencil or whatever. But I did a lot of that this semester in studio with my second year students. I had this sort of massive whiteboard and I, we collected these sketches for each student across the weeks so that you could see the sort of trajectory for their projects and, and just talking through sketch. And sometimes I, you hand the pencil off, right? And. Because if I'm not getting it, then the students are like, no, no, no. It's like kinda like this and this, and then you sort of what would, what would be super cool is if Apple had the ability to let two pencils like draw on the same iPad so that you can really, you kinda, you have to share share the one, but hey, you know, I guess you could use a finger too, I suppose, but Yeah, so I, I liked, I like doing that, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a nice, so unfortunately, I, I don't have a, I, it's crossed my mind, you know, with my desktop is to get some sort of drawing pad that could interact with the whiteboard app so I don't have to use the iPad. And

Jamie 43:31

that sounds very like 1995 of you. I know, but they still

Kurt Neiswender 43:34

exist. People, people do use them.

Jamie 43:38

I know they still exist, but

Kurt Neiswender 43:40

Oh yeah. It's, it's, yeah. Anyway yeah, I think I, I, I wanna do a little bit more of that'cause it's kind of, you know, it, you just layer it on, right. It creates interesting sort of stack of, of texture, I think with different color. Color.

Jamie 43:57

You can say it, you can say it, it's, you know, your, your butter paper, so it's okay. It's okay. Butter. You can, you can say, you can say it, trace butter paper, velon

Kurt Neiswender 44:08

bu bu line trash

Jamie 44:10

paper. Bu i, I don't know if

Kurt Neiswender 44:11

I've ever heard it called onion skin. Have you heard that one? I've never heard butter paper.

Jamie 44:17

Mm-hmm.

Kurt Neiswender 44:17

But we're,

Jamie 44:19

yeah, well it's yellow, like, it, it almost, it almost. Almost looks like wax paper. You know, like if you were like, you know,

Kurt Neiswender 44:26

baking a cake,

Jamie 44:28

baking in the kitchen.

Kurt Neiswender 44:30

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I get it. I like the yellow canary, canary yellow butter paper.

Jamie 44:35

Oh yeah. I got, I, I mean, there, there might be a stash of a lot of that.

Kurt Neiswender 44:40

I used to do that a lot in studio, the old studio. But then I realized the well the one cool thing about those that still ex it's still exists today is that the, the students will stack'em up on their desk. Unfortunately, it's like the only opportunity to see trace paper in the studio is the sketches that I give them. Everything else gets, gets put in the computer. They don't, they don't make a lot of their own.

Jamie 45:06

So, so what you're saying is like. There's a contest amongst your students to see who's, they have a place that, do they tape it off. Like, here's the spot on our desk that we're just gonna stack Kurt's sketches. Oh. They kind of, kind of, and then see, see who at the end of the semester has the large stack of,

Kurt Neiswender 45:26

It was a bit of a competition between mine and Cormick sketches. We had a lot of fun.

Jamie 45:31

Well, I mean, you know yeah, you are, you are leaning into cormick realities. So

Kurt Neiswender 45:37

it was yeah, it was a good it was a good competition, friendly competition, but the students kinda ate it up. I don't know if you heard, I know we should probably wrap up, but the did you see some of his PO posts from Chicago? He was able to. I

Jamie 45:49

did, I did. Well, I told him, I,

Kurt Neiswender 45:52

he, he convinced a, a handful of our, our, our studio students from the fall and well, and then he, we sort of, you know, the ones that you stay in touch with in, in the hallways and stuff. And they came out, he was like, you're not gonna do it. And they're like, yeah, we're gonna do it. And they, and they showed up and he gave him a bit of a tour, a crash course, an AIE marathon, if you're for those that are friends of the Archie Marathon channel and Kevin and, and, and Andrew's work. But the yeah, he gave him a little bit of a tour. So they have this funny joke amongst themselves. Like, I, you'll probably hear about it next week'cause when you see Cormick, but the, the the students, if they're listening, they'll hopefully laugh at, at some of this, but cor Ric will do the, the classic, are you familiar with this building? How about this one? And then they turn around and go, cor, you know, we don't know what building you're talking about. Why don't you just tell us? It's it's it's like it was a good, good running gag. I hope you you know, you, you weren't there in, in person, but in spirit, I hope it settles in. And then when we drag you in to teach we'll, you know, you'll get, you'll get that vibe again. So.

Jamie 47:07

Yeah, no, it'll be fun. But yeah, no, the yeah, I'm, I'm looking forward to seeing him and Evan and everybody. And hopefully they will come out and tour around with us as well. I, I think that would be a lot of fun. So

Kurt Neiswender 47:20

time to go twist some arms. All right, sir. Well, thanks. Great collaboration.

Jamie 47:26

Cheers. See you in a week.