This week my guest is Katie Philo, she's the Content Manager at BritBox (Created by BBC Studios & ITV) and the host of the podcast When I Grow Up where she unpacks people's career paths and how they've arrived where they are currently in their career. She's originally from London but has spent the last year and a half making a life for herself in New York City. We talk about what happens after you've achieved your dream job, balancing ambition with being present and satisfied with where you currently are, how she's trying to fill the other buckets in her life outside of her profession and what it's like doing all of this far away from her home country. Being fellow podcasters and also two people just obsessed with how people work and what makes it important to them, Katie and I had a very natural conversation that continued long after we stopped recording and I really enjoyed all of the insights she's gathered from years of experience working in over 35 different jobs, as well as everything she's learned from her own podcast guests. She's a lovely human and I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did!
This week my guest is Katie Philo, she's the Content Manager at BritBox (Created by BBC Studios & ITV) and the host of the podcast When I Grow Up where she unpacks people's career paths and how they've arrived where they are currently in their career. She's originally from London but has spent the last year and a half making a life for herself in New York City. We talk about what happens after you've achieved your dream job, balancing ambition with being present and satisfied with where you currently are, how she's trying to fill the other buckets in her life outside of her profession and what it's like doing all of this far away from her home country. Being fellow podcasters and also two people just obsessed with how people work and what makes it important to them, Katie and I had a very natural conversation that continued long after we stopped recording and I really enjoyed all of the insights she's gathered from years of experience working in over 35 different jobs, as well as everything she's learned from her own podcast guests. She's a lovely human and I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did!
When I think about success, I think it is ultimately just trying to be aligned and at peace with what I'm doing and not kind of fighting it. I don't that if I've necessarily arrived that, but I imagine what success or when you know you've been successful is when you just feel totally at peace in a situation. Then you're and you feel like you're being the best version of yourself. You can be his day and you're expressing yourself and in ways that are kind of a natural and authentic to you as well. Ultimately aspiring to being content and to not be wanting something you don't have and not be jumping 10 months into the future when you think you'll be happier.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the ways we work podcast, the podcast about all of the things people are putting work into and evolution on the ways we work. Website. It's a podcast about how you work in every sense of the word I'm Amanda would and in each episode I talk with someone I admire about their career, where they're growing or stretching or maybe how they're working to embrace a new habit or perspective. I talked to people about how they keep balance in their lives, how they stay curious and all the ways that putting in where it can be challenging and uncomfortable but also really rewarding. This week my guest is Katie Phylo. She's a content manager at BBC is Brett box and the host of the podcast. When I grow up, where she unpacks people's career paths and how they've arrived at where they are currently in their career. She's originally from London but as spent the last year and a half making a life for herself in New York City. We talk about what happens after you've achieved your dream job, balancing ambition with being present and satisfied with where you currently are, how she's trying to fill the other buckets in her life outside of her profession at what it's like doing all of this far away from her home country. But before we get into the interview, I wanted to share the last week ways we work past a thousand listeners and I just wanted to say a huge thank you to every person who has subscribed and taken time to leave a review. I really appreciate it. This podcast is definitely a labor of love and it's very rewarding to know that it's resonating. So thank you. I've got some different episodes coming down the pipeline. One is going to be a bit of a discussion on a specific topic between myself and two other guests and then another that's going to be an interview with two people at the same time, which I've never done before, so keep an eye out for those too. You can definitely continue to expect that the interviews will be released biweekly, but I've been having a lot of fun thinking up different types of episodes to do to kind of sprinkle in between those. So please do give me feedback on those and let me know what you think and also if there are any particular topics that you'd like to see me cover or specific guests that you'd like to have me bring onto the podcast, just send me an email at Amanda at ways we worked on io. All right. Onto the interview with Katie. So being fellow Pod casters and also two people just obsessed with how people work and what makes it meaningful to them. Katie and I had a very natural conversation that continued long after we stopped recording and I really, all of the insights that she's gathered. Yeah. From years of experience working in over 35 different jobs as well as everything she's learned from her own podcast guests. She's a lovely human and I really enjoyed this conversation with her.
Speaker 3:[inaudible]
Speaker 2:oh, hi Canadian. Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 1:Hi Amanda. I'm so happy to be here.
Speaker 2:To start. I actually wanted to read a bit from the email you sent me, if that's all right. Of course. You said, I think a big part of my work journey is actually the journey beyond the office. Focusing on my friendships, doing therapy and yoga, making a podcast, growing in confidence, being independent and living away from home, and I think work should be considered in this greater context to stop us becoming so obsessed about the achievements without that context. And I thought, aside from that kind of being a perfect summary of what this podcast is about, I wanted to know, you know, when did you come to that realization and what sort of happened that has shifted your perspective in terms of how you relate to work.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So you're, I think I'm a classic over a Tiva and I was raised on this idea of ticking lots of boxes, achieving good grades at school, going to university, getting a first class degree, and then going on and having a really good rattle recognize career. And it's not to say that I was ever forced to do any of this because I obviously found great fulfillment from it, but I think it really set me on this path of getting my kind of value and worth from my productivity and my achievements. And I think like when I went into my career, I really was quite obsessed with finding this idea of a passion and a purpose and this unique kind of thing that was going to set me up for life. And I was really a big reader of so many books around this. And one big one is Ken Robinson's book called and the elements, how finding your passion changes everything. Um, so I was just kind of really obsessively going down this path of, right, I have to have to find this, I have to achieve this. I think of a time that guy, when you say kind of what happened to change my view of work and what it meant because obviously in this context it meant everything to me. It was my entire identity and that was my, my self worth was so tied to my achievements and my, my professional identity, which was working at the BBC where I'd always wanted to work. And I had, I've been there for five years now. Um, and for me it felt really good to have this kind of achievement. What kind of change? Like I'd said, there isn't really a single moment, I think has been a really gradual shift over time. But I think moving to New York about is I spent about a year and five months now. It's kind of the catalyst that really shifted my perspective. And it's cheesy, but I think being away from home and outside your comfort zone makes you realize a lot of things about yourself and about work and your environment is, I think for me, I always used to put all my eggs in the professional basket and that was at the detriment of my outside life. And I think coming to New York made me really put it in stark contrast, you know, this idea that I had a thriving professional life, but I think my outside life had really suffered. Like I said in that quote, like I started trying to fill up the areas of my life that were kind of quite empty I think compared to my professional life. So I think being in a new city ready forces you to kind of be adventurous, try new things. And I just started opening myself up to lose a different new experiences. Um, and that was kind of meeting New People, starting my podcast, being independent and being away from home. And it just started making me realize that God, you can derive your sense of self and identity and total fulfillment from your work because you're destined to be unhappy and there's a lot of pressure to put on something as well.
Speaker 2:I just am curious if you have any thoughts on like where you think this, it comes from for us, you know, this idea that like work sort of has to be everything and, and you mentioned you like having like a well recognized job and so I don't know where that sort of came from, from you or
Speaker 1:yeah, when you think about that. Yeah, I think there's like some kind of element for millennials especially, but probably most generations in this, this idea that we're told that we can do and the thing would be one, if you're in a relatively privileged position where you have been educated and you have opportunity, you, your fingertips, you do feel this sense of you know, need to find that and to do what you, you think is going to be in the best possible reflection of yourself and your identity. To me,
Speaker 2:it's like if I can do anything then I better, you know, really do something amazing.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I think for me, um, I'm a bit of a people pleaser in it's a validation things lightly. Obviously I get great enjoyment and I, and I loved the BBC and I, I knew I wanted to work there, but there's a sentence, I think that when you know, when you are at a party and someone let the second question after your name, it's like, what do you do? You could answer that question and leave work out altogether and just be like, Oh I, I enjoy podcasting id yoga or I travel or whatever it is that you like to do, but we need it. The gravitate to this self styled identity around our work. When you're in a part and you're in a room, especially in the UK and you say you work for the BBC, it does have stature and, and I think if I monitor myself, it probably does. You know, it's like that childhood validation that you get. Like it does make you feel good. Yeah. Like, I don't think it's necessarily a great thing, but, um, it feels quite hard wired in a lot of people. Just you're talking about that,
Speaker 2:the validation and the external validation piece in particular. Uh, I've noticed that in, in myself as well. And you know, it's gonna it's gonna be hard to get rid of that validation of Oh yes, like someone actually knows the company that I work at. Like that feels great. They understand what my title is, but I feel like we almost put everything into that and don't about like, well, what's going
Speaker 1:to make me feel really validated? You know, what's going to make me feel really amazing? And it might be, it might line up with other people's expectations, but you know, maybe it doesn't. And, and probably often that doesn't. So I totally, I totally agree it cause I, I, you know, I think the shift in this idea of how we conceive work and what we think about what to be, if I think about it as being the reflection of myself and my identity and my self worth or bundled together, if not really the case. Because being at work as a, at the end of the day is ultimately a way for us to be able to live in society and survive and pay our way. But before work we are, we, you know, we all just beings, we're human beings. We came into existence and we were, you know, we exist beyond the workplace. We have identities beyond that. And I think that bigger, that's the biggest shift that you are saying is I don't think I've realized that my sense of self and worth does not come. It's not completely tied to what I achieve productive, you know, in terms of my productivity or what I actually do. And if it's a value and if it's impressive to other people at the BBC being this sort of dream job for you for awhile. What was that feeling like when you actually achieved that? The funny thing is, um, I, my story and the BBC, it started at a quite young age and I was on this TV show called news round. It's like a children's TV show. I was 13 and I actually got to interview Madonna and, and my dad. And it was, it was amazing and I think I entered the competition because I wanted to work at the BBC. So it was like a behind the scenes glimpse. And I remember just being absolutely amazed going into the studios and recording the voice overs and seeing the adult and the researcher. And I think it was like that moment where I was like, right, this is where I'm going to work. And it became this kind of, I'm so sick, I get really fixated when I want something and it will become a very single single minded ambition and see the BBC was like on my horizon the entire time he went through university. And you know, when I came out and I went into internship, it almost felt this like this wool I would never climb over to cause to get a job there is quite hard. So obviously when I finally got my BBC pass, it just genuinely felt like I was winning the lottery and it was just like I felt like I'd arrived and that was it. But then as we know with everything in life, when you, when you kind of say, well, I'm not going to be happy and I won't have arrived and it won't be fulfilled until I get this leather, it's like, I don't know, you get assessed staff job or you get a boyfriend or you, you lose a certain amount of weight, like you'll get to that point, but you're again, you're not necessarily gonna be happy with that. And I, and I think that's really true of my BBC journey. I obviously really enjoy being there, but the moment I got it, and I was always thinking about the next job, but like what can I do next and quite right. And I moved around a lot, um, in the organization and it's a great place for that. But I think there was this sense of, well, what's next? And I feel like I could, I got in but then I just couldn't enjoy the fact that I'm in, you know, I think I'm sure everyone can relate to this, but, but it is something that I grapple with all the time. It's like, why can't I just enjoy this?
Speaker 2:Yeah. But how do you, yeah. And this is something I've been thinking a lot about myself lately is coming to that realization of okay, this mindset of like I won't be happy until is not healthy, but at the same time I feel like that's the same thing that keeps me driving, you know? So how do you balance those?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's so hard because um, I'm, I'm definitely like a bit of a disciple to Eckhart Tolle. A, you know, the guy who wrote the power of now, and I know that sounds so like we'll, we weary, but like I know the value of being able to be present and not keep thinking about the next thing. Because then you kind of destroy the quality of the present moment. But then I understand like also you need to have ambition and you need to be able to think ahead and plan. So, so trying to balance them. I don't know if there is even an answer if I have it on, but I think it's like being mindful day to day and it was starting to look ahead and jump myself five months into the future. I think it is just a conscious thought to think note to notice I'm doing it and because it was my biggest week, like one of my biggest weaknesses is that I, I look six months, 12 months, 18 months down the line and then I, I then I fail to see all the great things that are happening in the moment. And then you may miss opportunities or sign posts or things that may happen that you just ignored. Um, so I think it is just trying to every time catch yourself every time you do it. Over time I do it, I catch myself and I try and bring it back to the moment and recognize the things that are happening in that moment. The small things and stop trying to think big picture because you can't plan for everything.
Speaker 2:That's something you mentioned about like the single minded focus and ambition. It's almost just, you know, you can still have that drive and have that ambition but maybe just have it be a little bit more multifaceted so that you aren't, like you said, missing what the other like opportunities on the sidelines might be. So no, I think that's a great answer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally. And like if you think about it, oh so single minded about the BBC that I wouldn't have even applied for another job anywhere else. But maybe if I'd been more open minded, who knows where it would've gone. So sometimes just being open minded, knowing the opportunity can come from anywhere means that you won't miss it or, so what are some of the things that you are putting work into at the moment? So you obviously my kind of full time job is stood up the BBC, but it's just the BDC and a little bit of a different kind of incarnations. So I worked for brick box, which is a streaming service for British TV and the U S and Canada and it's a joint venture between BBC and ITV, which are two of the biggest broadcasters in the UK. Um, and it kind of, it came about really because I'd worked to the BBC for a good three and a half years and I really wanted to move back to New York. So I was just trying to find ways to do it. And it just so happened this was starting and add, it just was one of those really serendipitous moments where that, where it kind of fell into place. Um, so I've been here for a year and five months now as a social and content manager and that kind of really just involves promoting and extending the narratives and the shows across digital platforms, mainly social platforms to our audiences. And it's, it's a very creative role in, they have to kind of know the shows, think about ways to create content that's really engaging. It's like very multifaceted and quick moving, which is what I'm used to. So that's really like what saturates probably, you know, my my days and then in the evenings, the thing that I work on obviously wished we talked about is my podcast called when I grow up. That was really born from all of these themes that we're discussing. This idea that I've always struggled with, not quite feeling like I've arrived and wondering if there was more to my career or what, you know, like this idea of what does work mean and like the success isn't just this big linear journey and it was kind of a, it was like a therapeutic and Cathartic thing to do because I'm having conversations like you do with people who are here inspire year. Um, but also it's scratching a creative itch for me. I've always wanted to do this and I was always waiting for the BBC to kind of give me permission to make podcasts. They realize actually I probably never going to have the chance to produce, edit and present the podcasts in my job. So I should just do this on the side. Say that. Yeah. That's what I do. It's quite hard balancing it alongside a day, like a full time job. I'm sure, you know, the kind of the parallels are doing that. Um, I don't, um, but it gives me so much fulfillment and they kind of see it as a hobby. So, yeah, those are the two things. I think I'm really investing and, and then like I was saying earlier, trying to get the balance a bit better and fill up other areas of my life, whether it's kind of sports or you know, doing yoga or trying to like just enjoy leisure time more. I go to the cinema a lot and just trying to explore more about myself that isn't related to my professional self. I'm learning that the podcast with the a full time job as more time than I expected. Um, you've lived in New York then for the time that you've been, um, at BrightBox then? Yes, exactly. So it's coming up a year and a half, which feels like a feat because one of the things and the reasons I started the podcast is because I've had it really abnormal number of jobs. Like one day I counted up all the jobs I've had in my life, including internships and it had about 35 and I am, it's a bit of a grasshopper and I used to think this was my biggest weakness, but now we ran on is actually, it's not a bad thing and it's kind of um, quite symbolic of I think where careers are going and this idea of having many strings to your bow, et cetera. So there's a drop sales quite a triumphant to me because it's the longest I've ever stayed in a job. And I think I've been a year and five months and it's great because it's being on a visa, being in the country, it's an indefinite commitment. I have never shamed because I was used to doing lots of project based freelance work and it's forced me to confront and professionally grow in many ways that I don't think I would've done. So New York has been really good to me in more ways than one.
Speaker 2:Do you find it difficult to keep some of that balance of being in a new city? And I, and I asked that because I just know for me being a little bit introverted, it would be so much easier to just kind of like throw myself into my work or you know, whatnot and not
Speaker 1:worry about meeting people or going out occasionally. I think I'm very similar and it's quite hard because if the me, the reason you've moved to a city is for a job, obviously that kind of becomes everything for a short while. But then you have to really invest your time outside to build a life for yourself because you don't have any of the networks you have in your home safety. You don't have the kind of the patterns or the places that used to go to. So you're literally building it all from scratch. So I, if I feel like at least in the first year I didn't, everyone says to me, the moving to New York is hard enough when you're American, left alone, a British, you know, next part coming from the brain and it's really hard city to kind of make a life for yourself. And then I think there's a constant moments. I call it kind of this pendulum swing between London and New York where I, I kind of just look at London and like, oh, it would be so much easier if I was just in London and everything would be easier. But that's the thing, it's like dealing with the difficulties that come not just in professional professionally but personally. Oh really rewarding. But you just have to invest the time and find the time. And there are times when I, I, I'm not very good at that and I probably just go home and listen to a podcast and just kind of wrap myself up and it can feel really learn there. But then I also push myself out and do things I would never have done if I was in London purely because I felt like I came here and I feel a bit more anonymous. I don't know if I would ever started the podcast if I'd stayed in London, for example. Um, so yeah, I think just that balance that you asked about that you are very aware of the need to kind of invest in yourself outside of work probably more so than you would be if you are in your own city.
Speaker 2:Hmm. What are some of those, those challenges and I guess the differences that you found between like New York and London?
Speaker 1:Just on a personal level. The difference is just the here I do feel a little bit more vulnerable because uh, I'm kind of, I'm on a visa, I'm essentially a resident alien. Um, I, you know, I'm an immigrant. Like I, I don't have a lot of the security that I would have if I was in my home country. So I do have this really, this feeling of kind of just like it doesn't feel permanent and it fit in. It's quite hard to build a life, not knowing if you're going to be here long term and buying furniture and like and committed, you know, committing to anything or making friendships are just like, it's, it's quite strange doing that when you don't know if you're going to be there long term. Whereas if I was in London, obviously everything I do, I wouldn't even about that. I wouldn't think about buying a microwave or a castle line of things. And it kind of, it really does remind you that, you know, is, is this, is this forever, is it not? And then I just think in tons of just the cities as being different places. New York to me is, it is, is a hard place to work. It genuinely is like a nut. Next level. You know, I ran out of Americans take less vacation than medieval peasants,
Speaker 2:um, for price,
Speaker 1:just like I came from a place where holiday is quite sacred and we take them and we turn off our emails. And generally speaking, it's always been a big part of my life. Holidays, travel and balancing work alongside personal life. You know, it was a lot easier. Whereas here it is intense and there's like a level of commercialism and just intenseness to New York. That probably is a Brett, I'm not quite a up to up to speed with, but I'm learning to try and be a bit more American in that sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure. Oh that's so interesting. And I, but I was trying to bring maybe some of that balance that maybe the Brits have that we, you know, I should say we are Canadian, but I think we have some similarities for sure. Yeah. I think everyone could benefit with a little bit of a British attitudes to fast for sure. Um, so I mean, going back to this idea of a dream job, I've personally struggled with this, you know, just questioning like, what is my definition of a dream job and what does that really look like? And I'm curious, you know, what meaning does your job have in your life now having had some of these realizations over the course of your career?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think I'm really similar. Like I've struggled with this idea of having a dream job. And I used to think that meaning only came from doing something that was like earth shattering, like a documentary of the shifts, a whole kind of, I don't no subject or writing or doing something that just has real obvious value. And to me like I think that was where I used to wear, I used to believe value came from. Whereas now I realize I think there's so much nuance to this and what's meaningful to me may not be meaningful to you and did to anyone else. It's such a subjective thing. So you know some people I like, you know, some people may just need to earn enough money so they can travel because that might be more important to them or if they can do a job that allows them to just leave at 5:00 PM see their family and spend time with their family that's meaningful to them. I read this book actually like, cause I'm such a kind of a, I read so much on this kind of area coolings the purpose and passion of work and it's, this is a story corpse Burke and story courts or this nonprofit. And they are essentially if their mission to kind of record and preserve American stories from lots of different backgrounds. And this really made me think about what meaning is and what it is different people. And it's all about people who have found their so called purpose or passion. And the things I would not really consider it to be meaningful or purposeful to me is I loved how people could derive meaning from some of the most kind of what it could look like to me. Quite tedious tasks. And there was, there's a couple of stories in there. It's a really, it's a great read because it's just little vignettes of each individual. Um, but there's one guy, he's like a struggling teacher in, uh, Baltimore and you just had a real passion for the night sky. So he just took his telescope out to the streets and he used to just kind of set up and teach people about the night sky and it became like this event and you know, people used to pay to go on these little tours and stuff. There's just like those little stories like that. There's another guy, he works as like a, I don't know what the official time is like a bridge keeper and they've done it their entire lives and they notice like the bads and the colors on the trees changing. And it's just like they just sit there all day. But it just made me think, you know, that you don't really need to have this huge legacy or imprint or impact. It just is so personal. And it is what means. It's like you said, how you, how it makes you feel.
Speaker 2:MMM, I need to go pick up that book. You've, you've given me so many recommendations. Now I'm going to the bookstore tonight. So I'm like, okay. And almost found meaning in the type of work that I do versus the necessarily the role. Cause I did. I did find, I was one of those people who was, I'm like, oh, I feel the most fulfilled when like people know what I'm doing and they feel value in what I'm doing, you know, either inside the company I'm working at her or externally and I had to have like a real big think about that. Like why is that so important to me? You know, why can't it just be something that I enjoy, I find fulfillment in. And so you know, now I've found through the different roles that I've had, the common theme is just like really wanting to help people and be sort of like of service too. Like some common goal, you know, whatever. That is certainly have to be big or a low. It's more exciting one. It is. But you know, just kind of trying to keep that thread throughout
Speaker 1:whatever it is that I do. Yeah, that's so true. Like, I think you're, you're, you kind of realized that it's not a specific job title or area that is, that is, that makes you feel a certain way, but it's just applying a certain skill or being a sentence situation that can make you feel that you're giving back and it, and it's quite good to kind of just understand, like, I think when I think about success, I think it is ultimately just trying to be aligned and at peace with what I'm doing and not kind of fighting it. I don't know if I've necessarily arrived that, but I imagine what successful when you know, you've been successful is when you just feel totally at peace in a situation. Then you're, and you feel like you're being the best version of yourself. You can be his day and you're expressing yourself and in ways that are kind of a natural and authentic to you as well. Ultimately aspiring to being content and to not be wanting something you don't have and not be jumping 10 months into the future when you think you'll be happier.
Speaker 2:MMM. Have you discovered any, I guess strengths or skills that you have throughout all the different jobs you've had that were surprising to you or you think maybe you wouldn't have discovered if you hadn't, you know, taken on something else or, or taking a risk on something?
Speaker 1:The biggest thing I've noticed about myself is the eye able to deal when new environments and change really easily. Um, well not really easily, but because I've worked on so many different projects and I was a freelancer for a good kind of year before I moved here, I became really used to just going into new environments, working with new teams and just getting a lay of the land and also just having to learn new things constantly. Like the digital landscape obviously. And that those kinds of roles require constant change and abilities to learn new skills. But it's quite funny because in some ways I'm very habitual and sometimes a bit fearful of change. But then when you look at my career and you look at the things I've done, it will, it is about change at actually I probably would benefit from having a level of just stillness and commitments, which is context what I'm having now. So, um, yeah, I think it's change and resilience.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's funny how the, it is really a pendulum swing, right? I yeah, it goes back and forth between like two extremes. So that's really
Speaker 1:right. I think that's the thing you're like, it's not this binary thing where you're just a big adventure and you'd love to change because I can be bold and adventurous. Like I can move to New York on my own and I can travel around Asia on my own and I can go freelance and take risks. But then I also, um, quite, I think in my day to day work, I can maybe be a bit averse to risk taking and sometimes I like to do what I know and I can be habitual and a bit routine base. Yeah. It's funny how these two elements can manifest themselves, but I just think, I guess you can be elements of all, but being aware of when to kind of pull one in and and push one out kind of thing is it's a good thing.
Speaker 2:And so I guess looking at your work a little bit wider, maybe some of the major aspects of the work that you do. Yeah. That most people might not know about.
Speaker 1:I was thinking about this, I was thinking about it more as a kind of general, not maybe, maybe not my actual specific job but more about me and the way I work as if we're thinking about work as not just a job that you go into day to day, but also just the kind of your life. I think the thing that I, and I've kind of alluded to this is the people may not know about the extent of time and energy and thoughts I give to extra curricular savings and I'm having so many plates spinning at once and many rabbit holes being explored. Um, I'm just such an active thinker and I'm so curious about everything that it actually makes me feel. So sometimes quite stressed about all the prospects and opportunities and things I could be doing. And I am also engaged on, on these tangents. Like suddenly I think for the last two months my real thing has been filmed. I've been just like listening to every podcast about filmmaking and I'm going to a screenwriting courses and do all these things. Um, but then suddenly it might switch and I might want to do music journalism. Um, and then I'll do something else. I don't think so. I think probably the thing that might, I don't know if it was surprise people, but I think it's just having, while I can be quite single minded, I can also be incredibly like flip flitty between lots of interests and the amount of time it absorbs in my life and the kind of elements that I put together. Like I think, I think that would be, there may be quite surprising, especially to people who, who knew me in a professional sense at work. They probably don't know that I'm doing half of these things. I do. I was like, fuck
Speaker 2:no, that's answer is this idea that that a lot of people just don't see what goes on behind the scenes. You know, you really only see like the highlight reel or like snippets of of a person's life or their work just giving honor and tribute to how much actually happens and how much time and energy and anxiety, you know, like mentioned, you're constantly thinking about this stuff and that's so draining in a way that's not, you know, visible or tangible or anything. But there's so much effort that people are putting in
Speaker 1:to me. Sometimes I look at other people and this obviously again, you never know what's going on behind the scenes, but sometimes like God, I wish I could just be one of those people that can just go in, do their job, come home, put the TV on and just relax and just like be at peace and do their thing. And I made, it's contradictory to everything I probably said, which is, you know, is about, you know, understanding that your life is multifaceted. And if you just put all your energy and everything into work or the other areas are just going to be empty. And I'm so aware of that. But then I'm also aware that things like my podcasts do you give me great, a great sense of satisfaction and joy and I really enjoyed doing them and I, yeah, I think it's sometimes when you've got so many interests and you're curious about a lot, it's hard not to explore all of that and know when to stop and, um, when the Internet is obviously on and it's easy to be connected constantly and read and just absorb information constantly, I think, I think that's like, it's a challenge in itself, just learning to stop yourself. Um, and I think, I think that's, I mean, people that know me probably wouldn't be surprised, but maybe, maybe, yeah, maybe it's, uh, it's just something unique to my career.
Speaker 2:I don't know. And they, um, man, there's so much of what you're saying that I connect with in terms of, I don't know. It is, I hate using the word balance over and over again, but it is such a balance between too extremes almost. And even with the podcast and starting this podcast for myself, I was very intentional. I'm like, this is going to be for fun. I'm going to release episodes biweekly and I'm not going to stress about, you know, am I doing enough to promote it? Am I doing enough to like grow the audience and get sponsors and all this stuff. But then you start it and you start looking at like other podcasts and you start thinking like, well maybe I should be releasing weekly or, or maybe I should be like putting more time in time promoting it or make really beautiful like Instagram posts for it or you know, so it's certainly caught back up in the wheel and just having, I don't know, some way to like ground yourself back, why did I even want to do this in the first place? You know?
Speaker 1:That's cool. I had that right at the beginning where I was on this like weekly release schedule and you quickly realize is it's a full time job and people that can release weekly probably have sponsors and all the time to spend on it. Whereas I just didn't have that. So when I just, I realized and you think that everyone's waiting for another episode, but it's like self imposed pressure really. So I think I've had probably a kind of five, six month hiatus and I just started releasing them as I kind of recorded them and gave myself the time and space because I used to start resenting having to hold myself up on a really sunny weekend while everyone was at the beach sitting record, like recording or editing things. And like you said, if at the moment it becomes a chore, like You have to kind of remind yourself or why, why are you doing this? You don't need to do that. No one's telling you to.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. So do you believe that work does need to be meaningful and what does that mean for you?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it needs to be meaningful. But what the word meaningful, it has its objective. And what is meaningful to me, like I said, could be very different to what's meaningful to you. You know, for me, I think I need to fill that what I'm doing is aligned to my core self. Um, I feel like I'm still learning what that is and what my values are and what I feel is important. I feel like I'm learning and that's what I and I, and I think that's what, for me right now it gives me meaning is the feeling that I'm learning about myself. I'm learning new things about, I think ultimately I think it's my disposition. I will always need to do something that gives me a sense of purpose and meaning. But at the same time, that's not true for everyone. And like I was saying, sometimes there are some people who can go and be a cog in the wheel and leave and have a really purposeful and meaningful life. It's just at work as facilitating that. So it's like, I kind of think for me personally, it probably, it does, but I, I still think I should challenge what meaningful is because meaningful. It doesn't mean I need to change the world or create an Oscar winning documentary or whenever it could. It could just be that I do something that is I deeply passionate about and makes me feel content. And even if three people know about it, that's okay. My perspective has really shifted and I may have used to look back when I was temping or another jobs and kind of thought that they were less important, but it would be a really boring world if we all have the same ambitions and the same interests and we, the variety and diversity of the war, the workforce to kind of make the world go round. So we, you know, I, I would, I have so much respect for people who are able to do the jobs that I could never bear or the ones that I couldn't, I couldn't even have the skills to do. Um, I did. If that makes sense. Now it makes total sense. And do you think that had you not had such drive and ambition towards the job at the BBC that you still would have ended up there? And I guess the second part of that question is, should sort of our um, ambitions, you know, whether it's the Oscar Award winning documentary or, or the job or the BBC, you know, should those just be nice things that happen on, on our path and not something that we're driving for. And I guess like how do you think about that? That's such a good question. I think you're, you're onto something in the sentence. The having single minded division is a really beneficial thing sometimes because I do genuinely believe if you're putting all your energy into one thing and not spreading it around, you're more likely to achieve what you want to. So my examples are, you know, I wanted to work with BBC. I didn't apply anywhere else. That's all I put my energy into. And of course they'd like to hit it. You're going to achieve that. Moving to New York again, I ever, I did everything I could to for this to happen. And I think, again, the probability then was in my favor because I wasn't wasting my energy elsewhere. But in so doing, who knows, I may have disrupted the natural order of things. Yeah. Maybe if I've got better at just letting things organically unfold and really leaning in and working out how I feel and self assessing and working out what my strengths and weaknesses are. I think I could be in a very different place. I, I I do sometimes think I have other careers that I could have had. Like I would love to have been a psychiatrist for example. And I was really interested in that. I think I could have gone into academia. Um, I really love studying and I loved history. If I hadn't had that firstly potential pressure and that wasn't from anyone else apart from myself to to be in a career, that is, to me that that felt a claimed and impressive. And also that felt aligned with who I like to kind of style myself or think of myself as being, who knows? I could have just become a teacher and again, that's a very honorable profession. They'll do think there is something in a lot of the people I talk to on my podcast when I kind of unpick their journeys and all the threads to their career. It really reminds me of the, I know it's a cheesy to say this, but you know the Steve Jobs commencement speech where he talked about connecting the dots, looking backwards. Um, I think I often connect the dots looking forward. I'm trying to let pop them all out and then work my way towards each one. Whereas I think there's huge value and a lot of the people I speak to when they say, I say, did you have a pan? It's like, no, didn't have a plan. I just took opportunities as they came. I did what felt right. I said yes to things and I was open minded and this is how it, it and I, and I do think there's something in that. You're able to do it and let things be organic. You're probably more likely to end up in a destination that you're happy and content with versus prescribing yourself something because you think that's what's going to make you feel good and happy.
Speaker 2:Hmm. It's almost like, but like both answers are right. You know,
Speaker 1:I know you need, you need an element of planning, you can't just wing it and we all need to earn money and we all need to kind of survive. So it's just getting the balance, which is really hard. Like I think it's okay to have ambitions and ideas and I think dreaming big is such a good thing to do, but always trying to bring it back to the moment and knowing that you could be wrong and you may just take a different fork in the road and have a completely different career or a different destination, but you can still have those ambitions and those patterns.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. What are, what are some of the areas either you know in your work or in your life or you know, maybe you could speak to both that you feel kind of are like a challenge for you at the moment or that you're like stretching your yourself into?
Speaker 1:Yes, I think on a work level for me this role is quite different to roles I've done in the past and because it's a start up I'm having to do a lot of things that I have never done before, whether it's analytics or paid media, just things that I'm not familiar with and especially as someone who styles themselves or thinks of themselves as being creative, that it's quite hard to then be doing things that you don't feel aligned with what, what you would like to be doing. And that's been an ongoing challenge for me. But something that I'm trying to just embrace as being an opportunity for growth and a way to like lean into my weaknesses and understand more about myself. And so I think that's probably a big one. And then also just on a professional level, just learning to handle different situations. When you're in a small business, you encounter many more areas of the business and many more. And there's a lot of stakeholders involved. And I think I've encountered probably a lot more tricky situations and I've have ever done professionally and learning how to handle myself and what it says about me. And I think in life more generally, one thing I've become so aware of, which does tie back to this idea of validation is that I seek validation in a lot of areas in my life and I'm a massive people pleaser and I'm starting to try and really listened to what I actually think rather than just saying I'm filling silence and saying what I think people want to hear. Um, it's really hard to do. And uh, it's something that I am learning to try to do. And then I think the other thing is I'm, I'm, because I've been so focused on my professional life and my career and all that kind of stuff, it didn't leave a lot of room for kind of relationships and learning to kind of grow those and be vulnerable. And that's something I've been doing in New York dating for probably one of the first times. And it's a salvage place to do it, but it's really scary. I can imagine being here. Yeah, it is. And it's quite hard, but I think it's an area that I have for a long time and it's been, you know, a growth opportunity. Again, it is, and it's hard to kind of open yourself up and be vulnerable and put yourself in that situation. But again, it's all part of this like greater context thing, you know, not just having everything focused in the workplace, but trying to deal with the things that make you uncomfortable. And I think the big blanketing big blanket for me is I'm trying to learn and ease into dealing with uncertainty. As someone who's always had a plan and always felt safe knowing that their structure to kind of not know what my life is going look like in six to 12 months and where I going to be living and wanting them to be doing. Um, it's quite hard and if you can learn to handle this kind of uncertainty and I, I kind of assure myself this, that life can probably be infinitely more exciting unless prescribed. If you're able to be agile and learn to kind of like a degree of uncertainty.
Speaker 2:You mentioned, you know, really wanting to pause and think about what do I actually think versus saying something that someone wants to hear. Do you have any strategies or practices for like how you do that or any examples?
Speaker 1:I think I'm still early stages with this, I have noticed about myself is that I, I like to have the answer all the time and I like to be able to always well research well prepared and the thing that I've just started to learn to do, just be quiet and listen and just hear someone and not feel compelled to immediately respond or fill the silence. So I think it's kind of, it's like with anything in an interview where you felt like the silence goes on forever. It's learning to be a bit more kind of comfortable with the space and the silence and she's just really try and touch it tight, like tap in to think about what I actually think about something rather than just saying what other people think or what I think they they want to hear. And sometimes I think it's realizing that actually sometimes I don't really know what I think or what my answer is. So being comfortable to express that but then go away and really actually think harder about what it is or do some reading or just reflect on it. And I think sometimes as being, you know, if you've, if you've kind of been through the structures of academics and all that kind of stuff, you are, you're still always trying to have an answer for everything. And that's definitely part of my character. So I'm starting to try it. Yeah, try and stop that and just sometimes be okay with not knowing.
Speaker 2:There's something I've been working on a lot is like this idea of self trust and I think what you're talking about in terms of like academia and needing to have the answer when you go in. I've almost been challenging myself to think like my value isn't the fact that I have all the answers, but like the fact that I could figure them out, you know? So trying to put myself in situations where maybe I intentionally like under prepare, which could be a little irresponsible, I don't know, but just it pushes me to a figure it out
Speaker 1:in the moment and in this situation and then almost like built up my, my own confidence and trust that I'll figure it out. I think that was great advice on, it's kind of something that I would like to be able to do because I think I, I I coached to being really prepared as being my way of feeling comfortable and confident but actually is probably far greater to put yourself in these situations where you may feel traditionally a bit uncomfortable but know that whatever it throws at you, you are able to handle. And if, and if you don't know the answers it perfectly human that okay not to. And if you have those moments of realization that it is okay, it's kind of just then sets you up for future success and situations that are similar. So I mean maybe we could dig into, I would love to chat about, you know, you are putting some energy into you know, balance and like work life balance and what that means to you. So if there are any like habits or practices that you've been trying to incorporate that or helping you with that. Definitely. So my first one is walking like New York is such a great city to walk out. I'm such a prolific Walker, like I am definitely one of those annoying people that if they haven't done their 10,000 steps, I would just go to the shops to get the 10,000. It's just this weird thing that I have. Um, but while I walk to work actually every day and it's been such a savior to me, I it takes 40, 50 minutes there, 15 minutes back. I am so habitual. I get a coffee from the same place every morning. Um, it, I listened to a podcast or I listen to music and I just find it so cathartic, like the perfect way to start a day that isn't kind of squashed on the subway. I've never suffered with anxiety. I'm an anxious person. I'll give them a given myself that animal warrior, but I'd never had like physical anxiety before until I moved to New York and it's, I never really attributed to that it, to that until the last kind of few months, maybe six months and walking to work and just having that kind of sense of calm, it's almost meditative, has been such a huge help to me. I think it just sets you up, um, to be in a more pin, a peaceful frame of mind when you get to the office. So I definitely recommend that. And then music is a massive part of my life and I may be probably like immerse myself too much in it sometimes, but that's like something that I find really just to something that completely transports me somewhere else. Um, whether it's live or just, I make these like long versioning Spotify playlists every month that uh, yeah, they do. They're just like something that keeps me balanced. And the other thing that I would recommend, and I'm not sure if I can do this, but I've turned off all notifications on my phone I did to bring changing, obviously it's not great if someone news got a ahold of you urgently, but basically it just means that your phone no longer controls you and you control because you have to actually physically open up your inbox to just see if there's anything in it. So you decide when you want to go in rather than your phone pinging you and telling you, oh, you should open this now. And it just completely changes your relationship with your phone so that that's not, it's been a great one. And then I think the other thing that I started for the first time, which is so new and it's like a very unpretentious thing is therapy. I'm at it. It's like, yeah, so something that we don't talk very openly about hair, but everyone's hair is like, oh my therapist as I saw my therapist is that. And they just friends to, for people, like they're just like part of people's lives in a really natural way. Not a British thing. I mean I think it's increasingly so, and I just think it's like we don't talk about it as openly and I do definitely have friends that have done it and people talk about it. But I'd say that is definitely something that we don't fit. There's open talking about, or at least I agree I wouldn't traditionally. But I think being here has really opened my mind up to doing it. And I, so far I found it incredibly helpful. And you know, I talked to other British people here who do it too and they're like, God, it's just changed my life and had to look at them and I think, oh, I wouldn't imagine that you need to go to therapy. Like I think my, my perception of it was like, all you need to be crumbling and having a meltdown to, to need to go to therapy. And I realize it's about equipping you to handle those situations and to handle, you know, and really self assess and understand the way that you react to certain situations. And I think New York is a really stressful place and it's like triggered. So it's kind of, there's so much stimulus and it just makes me nervous and I think, uh, it's been really useful in helping me handle the more tricky situations that come my way. Uh, both professionally and personally
Speaker 2:I think of therapy is like the, I don't know, like I sort of imagined myself as like a house and there's like foundational posts or you know, in therapies like one of my main foundations that if that wasn't there I would probably crumble. So it's like a proactive effort.
Speaker 1:What did you, do you ever worry that the reliance on it or like how much it aids your life?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I do. I do. I've started kind of going less just just, just to see, you know, can I, can I be okay without this? But I mean, I am like, uh, I'm obsessed with this sort of like self development. I have coaches, I have therapists, like I have all the pain
Speaker 1:meme recently. Uh, it said something like being in therapy for guys, like if the new tool, so you need, traditionally you would want to go into your tall, dark and handsome, but now if they're in therapy, is this better? It's a great thing to be working on yourself and being really wire if your development and trying to be the best you can be. And like, that's not, it's not a terrible thing at all. Um, yeah. And I think it's something that I would definitely not want to talk about. And B, maybe ashamed of a witch is like such an fashioned attitudes to therapy. But I love the fact that being here, like I said it people say you about it and the way you also open about how it's benefited your life is such a great thing. And um, yeah. And I wish that more people would do it if they, if you know that it's a luxury in some ways, but if you can do it, I consociate the value in it and especially in,
Speaker 2:oh my gosh, like just being human is hard and being human in New York, I can, I've only been there a few times, but I just go there and I'm like, I need to, I can do three days here and I need to, yeah,
Speaker 1:exactly. It's so intense being like locked on this like island. We'd like, I was used to kind of having the countryside in the UK as being like kind of haven and my escape and I just don't really have any of that hair. So you have to find coping mechanisms, whether it's like yoga or, or like just my walk to work or you just all getting to even just some kind of place with a bit of nature. And I've just escaping like you have to find those centuries in a city. Otherwise, yeah. Like wait, cause we're not designed to be living in this kind of place we've created for ourselves. I,
Speaker 2:I always forget that it's an island and I'm like other element of like, um, so this has been such an awesome conversation, but is there anything else that you, you'd love to share that we didn't get a chance to touch on or anything you want to cover?
Speaker 1:I think we kind of in many ways touched on nearly all of the questions that you had provided at me. Right? I think just in different orders. Yeah. I think that was kind of like I was saying to you before we started being on the other end of a podcast is actually more nerve wracking than actually hosting the podcast. I find, because Austin, you're just elicited, you're like listing conversation and getting ideas and thoughts out of people and listening. Whereas hair, I'm actually trying to articulate and consider my thoughts on all these things, which I have been thinking about a lot after interviewing or people in getting perspectives on it. But again, it's all the lesser than trying to really work out well what do I think? And who knows? In a year I could listen back and be like, oh, I don't agree with myself anymore. Yeah, we'll get part of the process, isn't it? And this is kind of where I am at right now and it's probably a bit of a hotchpotch of contradictions, but that's kind of sometimes where we are at. Um, yeah, like I always, like I kind of say, and my podcast, we're just learning and growing constantly and like if you're doing that, that, that was enough, I think.
Speaker 2:I love that. And I, I, that's what I really want these conversations to be is just, you know, where people are currently. Yeah. Because I don't think it's, it's not, there's no end state really here. You're always sort of growing and constantly learning from every situation. So I think that's a great, a great answer.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah, totally. T and state, like that's again, like if I did as an end goal and you have to work to get there and then you arrive and you'll be living like success is just not this kind of linear success story is it like many threads, many movements and wrong turns. And I kinda just want everyone to know that we're all in this together. And just because a linkedin profile, Mo, it might look like this incredible series of successes. There's just so many things going on behind hi in that profile that you don't know about. And that's kind of, yeah, that's what I want to ask. Why I am glad that you're doing this and people talk about it and that's why I do my podcast. So yeah, it's great that you're taking this. So if people want to get in contact with you, what's the best way for them to do that? Probably on Instagram, it's just at Katie filing and you can find my podcast on the iTunes store or Spotify or wherever you get your podcast is called when I grow up. Amazing. Well thank you so much. This was such a great conversation and I'm glad we were able to do it. I'm so glad too and thank you so much and I can't wait to hear the rest of your podcast as it unfolded.
Speaker 3:Yes,
Speaker 2:thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please take just a few minutes to rate and review on iTunes as a new podcast. This helps a lot and it would mean so much to me. As always, you can find ways we'd work on Twitter and Instagram at waste rework and you can find me at Amanda Wood. If you like this interview, you'll probably love the 100 plus written interviews that you can find on ways we work.io and while you're there, you can subscribe to the newsletter to make sure you know whenever we release a new podcast or feature. In addition to these interviews, I'd love to do episodes where we take your questions about the things that you're putting work into at the moment, and myself and a guest will do the best we can to answer them. You can send those to Amanda at[inaudible] Dot. Io thanks again for listening and we'll see you next episode.