This week's episode is a discussion between myself and two of my colleagues and friends Lily and Amena. I reached out to both of them to get their perspective on how you can continue to grow and evolve in your career and other areas of your life, while also believing you are enough just how you are right now. We touch on things like being allowed to change if that's what you really want, getting comfortable with having different seasons to your life and how self-confidence can give you the space to imagine what else you might want to explore or try. We also dig into hustle culture, mom culture and even mom-hustle culture, and the importance of defining your own version of what success looks like in all areas of your life. My own personal takeaways from this conversation were the importance of letting your life have seasons, you can do anything you want but you can't do everything at the same time. I also personally took away how painful it can be to be motivated by the feeling that you're not good enough as you are right now, instead of being motivated by curiousity and excitement. You can tell both Lily and Amena have put a lot of work into reflecting on what's worked and what hasn't for them and I'm so grateful they both agreed to share their insightful perspectives in this episode. I would really love to hear what you think of this episode and if you'd like to see more discussions like this so please take a few minutes to leave a review or send a message on Twitter @wayswework.
This week's episode is a discussion between myself and two of my colleagues and friends Lily and Amena. I reached out to both of them to get their perspective on how you can continue to grow and evolve in your career and other areas of your life, while also believing you are enough just how you are right now. We touch on things like being allowed to change if that's what you really want, getting comfortable with having different seasons to your life and how self-confidence can give you the space to imagine what else you might want to explore or try. We also dig into hustle culture, mom culture and even mom-hustle culture, and the importance of defining your own version of what success looks like in all areas of your life. My own personal takeaways from this conversation were the importance of letting your life have seasons, you can do anything you want but you can't do everything at the same time. I also personally took away how painful it can be to be motivated by the feeling that you're not good enough as you are right now, instead of being motivated by curiousity and excitement. You can tell both Lily and Amena have put a lot of work into reflecting on what's worked and what hasn't for them and I'm so grateful they both agreed to share their insightful perspectives in this episode. I would really love to hear what you think of this episode and if you'd like to see more discussions like this so please take a few minutes to leave a review or send a message on Twitter @wayswework.
There's definitely days where I don't feel like I'm an ass. And so like it's like, you know, the general theme of my life right now is probably like, yeah, I feel like I'm enough. But moving to a new city and meeting new people and having new experiences and doing new activities, there have been a lot of days since I've moved here even before I moved where I kind of felt like, oh, I should be doing more, you know, I should be like going further than I should be being more social. I should be going on that hike like that. Like kind of just this feeling of like I should be doing so much more
Speaker 2:in this new stage of life that I'm in this mom life thing. You define what it is that's going to make you the happiest. Um, and I feel like there are, you know, I talked about the hustle culture. There's also this like mom hustle culture, there's like mom culture and I think all of it just kind of tells you that you're not doing the right things at, at any point in time.
Speaker 3:[inaudible]
Speaker 4:welcome to the ways we work, podcast, the podcast about all of the things people are putting work into and evolution on the ways we work. Website. It's a podcast about how you work in every sense of the word. I'm Amanda Wood and in each episode I talk with someone I admire about their career, where they're growing or stretching or maybe how they're working to embrace a new habit or perspective. I talked to people about how they keep balance in their lives, how they stay curious and all the ways that putting in work can be challenging and uncomfortable but also really rewarding. This week I'm joined by my two friends and colleagues, Lily and Amina for a bit of a different style episode. The three of us had a discussion around the idea of self development and growing as a person while also holding the belief that you are enough as you are right now. We touch on things like being allowed to change, getting comfortable with having different seasons to your life and how self confidence can give you the space to imagine what else you might want to explore or try. We also dig into hustle, culture, mom culture, and even mom hustle culture and the importance of defining your own version of what success looks like in all areas of your life. You can tell that both Lilly and Amina, I have put a lot of work into reflecting on what's worked and what hasn't for them, and I'm so grateful that they both agreed to share their insightful perspective in this episode. I would really love to hear what you think of this episode and if you'd like to see more discussions like this, so please take a few minutes to leave review or send me a message on Twitter at[inaudible].
Speaker 3:[inaudible]
Speaker 5:well, welcome Lillian. Amanda, and thanks so much for joining me. Thanks for having us. Yeah, I'm super excited to be here, so I guess we'll jump right into it. I would love to just first have you both introduce yourselves so maybe we can start with Amana, like who you are, you know, what you do for work, and then also like a couple of other things that you feel like you're really putting work into right now. Sure. Hi everyone.
Speaker 2:I'm Amina and I'm, I currently my nine to five. I currently work at Shopify for the Shopify plus division and I am a partner manager there. So what that means is, um, day to day I'm managing relationships with agencies who work on our Shopify plus platform. They help our agencies get, sorry, they help our merchants build there are shops, build any technologies that they need for their, for their stores and help them excel in that rate. And I am the person who puts the two of them together. There's a lot of relationship management that goes into that. Um, and I love it because of that reason. So that's where I'm at nine to five, I think five too.
Speaker 1:Forever.
Speaker 2:I am a mom, I'm a new mom and I'm, that's, that's, I think when you say where I'm putting work into, that's definitely, you know what, most recently I've been pouring myself into, so it's been a new adventure, especially navigating being a mom and working at Shopify. So that has been great. And other than that, I feel like I'm a kind of a cereal doer of all things. Awesome. I don't know if that's a thing to say. I just try to get my hands in all of the things that I like to do. So whether that's, you know, the gym working out, I do on the side, I help my mom with her side business. I've started side business. Um, so it's just navigating all the things that I like to do. Yeah, that's me.
Speaker 1:Amazing. So I'm Lilly and in terms of mine, nine to five, I also work at Shopify plus. Uh, I do product marketing. And so what that means is I work really closely with our product teams, so our UX team, our product managers or developers to essentially figure out the product that we're building, making sure that we're building it for the right audience at the right time. Uh, and then I try to tell compelling stories to bring everything together to make people want to use the thing that we're building. I've been doing product marketing for the past two or so years, a little bit less than two years, but in addition to my nine to five, I'm also a certified integral coach. So Amanda, you're also a certified coach. We did that certification together, but I did finish my certification in March and I'm looking to take on clients sometime this summer, but it's kind of on hold right now because a big thing that I'm putting work into right now is actually setting up my life on the west coast. I just moved out here to Vancouver about two months ago from Ontario, so I've always lived in Ontario. So moving out here was like a very intentional choice, very scary thing to do, but it's a really cool process to figure out how do I actually set up a new environment here? How do I set up my life here? I'm putting a lot of time into it. I have certain questions around like what is community and what makes something feel like home to me? Um, I'm very sensitive to my environment, so also trying to cultivate a really good physical space and Group of friends. So that's kind of my big focus right now is just being really intentional with where I'm spending my time. As I tried to step off on this new adventure on the right foot. Amazing. Cool. Um, I guess I've never actually
Speaker 5:told the listeners what I do in my nine to five, so
Speaker 1:probably start. Yeah.
Speaker 5:So yeah, I work on the diversity and belonging team at Shopify and that's a fairly new for me. I guess the TLDR of, of what we do is making sure that everyone at Shopify feels included, valued and heard. That's what I'm kind of doing nine to five and putting a lot of work into actually understanding that space better and how I can best contribute to it. And then obviously anything outside of that, this podcast is definitely been taking up a lot of my time and putting a lot of work into this form of creativity and how I express myself and, and do this. And then like self development is kind of like always on my, my roadmap of things I'm putting work into. So yeah. So that's me. And then, so I guess I'll introduce the topic a little bit. So I reached out to both of you. We obviously all work at the same company but in very different roles have different backgrounds. So the thing that I've been thinking about and I guess like putting work into a lot lately is this idea of like holding space for, so being ambitious and creative and wanting to grow and learn, but at the same time like believing that I'm enough right now. And where it came from for me actually was, um, I was having, I guess having dinner with my partner's family a few months ago and I was talking about like coaching and and, and like self improvement and always like growing and improving yourself and my partners mom was actually like, well, you know what, what about like just believing that you're enough right now. Like what needs to, it needs to prove and like that stuck with me.
Speaker 1:Yeah. The heart
Speaker 5:for months, like for months, that stuck with me obviously. So I was just sort of curious and like, lily, I'll start with you. Like when I reached out to you about this, like what came to mind for you when you first heard that? How do you personally relate to it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's interesting. A few different things came to mind. I think the first thing that really stuck out to me is this idea of like looking back on who you were before and being embarrassed by that person and actually having that be a good thing. And I kind of used that as like a weird litmus test of like, you know, if I look back six months and I look at what I was doing and spending my time on maybe, you know, like if I was dating or whatever. And I was like, if I'm not a little bit embarrassed it's kind of like, well, was I actually learning? Was I actually putting myself out there? Was I actually taking the time to try new things? So that was a big thing that came to mind. Just that idea of you're never going to be at the finish line of your development. And so like when you look back on where you've been, it should kind of feel a little bit cringey sometimes. And then on the flip side, kind thinking like now forward, I think this kind of idea of being allowed to change really came up for me. I heard this, I forget when I heard this, but this idea of like you are free to change if you don't like who you are right now or you know, maybe you love who you are right now. You're also allowed to change and grow and adapt and like we're not static beings. And I think that that idea of you have that freedom to change actually helped me unlock a lot of opportunity in my own life to be able to say, I am happy right now, but what if there was something else that I wanted to do and I'm actually allowed to go do that thing. I doesn't be little or negate any of the things I have done up until this point to get to this.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:MMM. Yeah, I love that. What about you? And then I first came to mind.
Speaker 2:Oh Man. So I think Amanda, we follow each other on Twitter and we always have like some kind of cool random things to tweet and feel like there's the whole hustle culture that's, I'm obviously a parent on Instagram and on everything now. And uh, for me, I was swallowed up in the hustle culture. I think four years and having a baby does anything to you, it obviously tells you to slow the hell down. So for me, I think the first thing that popped into popped into my mind was, you know, it was okay to just like Lily said, it was okay to change. It was okay to morph into this new person that I was becoming and I might not have necessarily navigated it myself. Like I feel like, you know, becoming a mom obviously makes you want to change and makes you have to change kind of thing. But I fully absorbed the fact that I was going to be taking a back seat at first, was very, very hard on myself and was like, you're not doing enough. Meanwhile, I was,
Speaker 1:I just had a human, I was much more than I was giving myself credit for. But
Speaker 2:you know, I think with, with hustle culture being very apparent, it was very hard on a person who was constantly go, go, go. So I, a couple of months in I just decided to kind of just let myself get immersed into, into being a mom and being still for a little bit and being still in mom life is not really being still at all, but just not necessarily doing all of the things, being enough for what I'm called to do right now. And what I was called to do at the moment was, was take care of this child and made sure that I was 100% and making sure my support system, you know, knew when I needed to say no one when I needed to say yes. So I needed to make sure that that was kind of apparent. And that was kind of what, what made me realize that, you know, sometimes it's, it's, it's okay to just change and B, still you are enough in that season. That's the season that you're in and it's okay to just be still for a season. And that was just kind of what it brought me to and I've carried that into being at work now and just being able to say no to certain projects or being able to say no to whatever it is and just being okay with that, you know, joy of missing out kind of thing. You know, it's, it's all a learning, but I, I feel like as we go on, it's just you have to embrace this whatever season that you're in. And right now for me, at least this season is just kind of not coasting. But I think just just being okay with just the stillness. Yeah. Yeah. I was going to say, I actually, if I can riff off that for a second, when I moved, uh, so I moved to Vancouver recently, but before that I was living in Waterloo and I lived there for about two and a half years. And when I first moved there I was very stressed. And long story short, I went through a period of burnout and then I had another two years in Waterloo. About probably six months into those, that two year period I kind of realized I kind of cheated. I would call it like my incubation season and it sounds kind of weird, but in my, maybe now I might call it like my season of healing or something. But the idea of season is so important because there are different seasons, there are seasons when you're like killing it and you're like, you feel like you know you have all the success coming to you and there seasons where you just need to like let yourself naturally evolve and grow into this person that you're becoming. Yup. Yeah. And so for me it's like, like my time in Waterloo was very much like my incubation season where I got to like integrate all these things I was learning and like build really good relationships and kind of just like be kind to myself, meet myself where I was and now I feel like, you know, maybe I'm embarking on like another exciting season, but I really needed those two years to just do my thing and just be a human being without feeling like I was never doing enough. You know what that's like. I feel like Lillian, you, you, you and I talked about this. I feel like it's, it's definitely a cocoon stage, right? Like in this cocoon phase where you're just, you're used to being like out and fluttering around like pretty little butterfly, but you really need those, those moments where you're just kind of taking stock of things in your life and, and really sitting in it. My best friend said it to me cause she's like, why do you feel the need that you need? You need to be doing these things. I don't know. I think maybe because I've always been doing these things. I've just, I mean I, I, I'm going to age myself here, but I feel like, you know, I'm, when I had my baby, I was 32 and I just feel like for 32 years, all I knew was go, go, go. So imagine just not going and then you're just kind of thinking, oh well I'm not doing anything. Then you see other people doing it again as a culture and this feels off right. And you just start to, you start to think as your, of yourself as less than or not accomplishing much. Meanwhile, like we've accomplished a lot, you know, if you, if you actually take stock. So it's, it's important to, to really sit in whatever season you're in and just, it's hard to say, you know, this is obviously hindsight, but I feel like, you know, sit in the season that you're in and really take stock of what is supposed to be happening because those are the most transformative moments. And it's okay to be just kind of chill.[inaudible] you are enough in those seasons, you're enough. And when you're not in those seasons, it's just enough to be aware of when you are and just kind of just live in the present.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And it sounds a lot nicer than incubation incubator. Well there's another podcast and
Speaker 5:it was between two women on the aim. I want to say it's like the limit does not exist or something. And yeah, that's what it's called. And they, she said there's like three phases and you're usually always in one of them. I think it was like experiment, explore and execute. But like you can never be in one for too long. Like the nature of things is just that you're kind of moving, you know, between those three. So one thing I was kind of curious to ask you both, because it's the thing that I've struggled with the most is, and, and I hear this reflected from other people and I have this conversation with them too, is like if you, I believe that you are enough right now, what keeps you driving? Like, what keeps you growing and learning new things or you know, trying to I guess evolve as a person if you already think that you're enough right now.
Speaker 1:I think that there's something around, the idea is like being enough and feeling good about where you are actually gives you the freedom to imagine what the feature could be. Cause if you're in a constant state of feeling like you're not enough, you're never taking time to just sit back and like dream and imagine like, well what if I did that really cool thing? And it's only when you feel like you're enough and you feel like, wow, like I'm doing really well and I feel confident and I feel secure. It's only then that you actually give yourself the freedom to expand your mind a little bit and think about like, well yeah, what if like what are all those possibilities? What could I do next? Cause I know at the times when I felt like I wasn't doing an app where I felt that like false sense of scarcity, I couldn't, I wouldn't let myself think of the future because I was like, I don't deserve it. Yeah. Whereas now I'm kind of like shit. Like I get to IX bad my mind and think of like all these possible things and that feels really good, but that's only because I'm in a healthier place than I was before.
Speaker 5:Yeah. It's like it comes from a different place, like a different motivation.
Speaker 2:Yup.
Speaker 1:Well it's again intrinsic versus whatever the opposite of him.
Speaker 2:No, I mean he said it. I think you said it really well. I was just going to echo everything that you, you had mentioned you just have to be in the right mental space. I think being enough comes from just having that self assurance or you know, just just knowing yourself more to know that you know what, I'm good where I'm at, but knowing that you're good, where you at doesn't necessarily mean you stop. It just means that you, like Lily said, there's the, that the possibility, the, the imagination that the freedom to kind of know where you could go. It's actually, it's a kind of a dope place to be in because I feel like I'm getting to that place. I'm, I've finally come to a place where I'm, I'm kind of comfortable with the balance. I've stricken in everything that's going on in life and yeah, that doesn't mean that I'm going to stop and just everything kind of remains status quo. It means it's, it's, I'm always thinking, okay, like now that I've hit this balance that I didn't think was attainable maybe six months ago, like, look at how many other things I could possibly get done, you know, so I'm enough right now. But being enough is this constantly, it's this constant elevation and it's constant, you know, ever changing kind of way of thinking of yourself and pushing yourself to the next limit. But it's constant.
Speaker 5:That's what I'm trying to say. It's not, it's a constant. Yeah. I'm feeling like so I mean I love this as a discussion and also like just on a personal level because it's almost reminding me how far I've come and I've been doing a lot of things like I've been seeing a hypnotherapist, I've been like taking lots of good care of myself but in my mental health space. But I, I was thinking like when I was originally asked this question I was like Aye. Like if I did think I was enough, why would I do anything? And literally my mind could not comprehend like having a reason to do anything other than just like I'm not good enough right now. And now being in this space of weight, those two things like don't have to be connected. They don't have to be different ends of the spectrum. It's like, no, I can believe I'm enough. But I also just want to keep doing things cause like it's fun and like what else am I going to do with my time? I like giving enough is confident enough
Speaker 2:to know that you are able to do so many things and just pour yourself into something new or just uconn. Like I said before, it's a constant, it's just constantly learning new things and, and being uh, being 100% for the next stage of whatever enough is next for you. You know,
Speaker 1:there's definitely days where I don't feel like I'm enough.[inaudible] so like it's like, you know, the general theme of my life right now is probably like, yeah, I feel like I'm enough. But moving to a new city and meeting new people and having new experiences and doing new activities, there have been a lot of days since I've moved here even before I moved where I kind of felt like, oh, I should be doing more, you know, I should be like, I should be be more social. I should be going on that hike. Like that. Like kind of just this feeling of like I should be doing so much more, which has made me different than like feeling like I'm enough. But I feel like the two are somewhat related and so that's actually a big meditation for me right now is I am enough and I'm doing enough and I deserve to be here because I do believe that. But sometimes when you're lost or caught up in the fray of all the activity, it's really easy to forget that you do belong somewhere and that you are worthy of being there.
Speaker 5:Yeah. And you both kind of touched on in like both of your answers around the COO defines what is enough or like who defines what is productivity and Metta you kind of spoke to it, you know, being a new mom, like you were obviously not just, you know, resting on your laurels or like not doing anything. You were kind of like, you know, you had different things that you were doing. They just like weren't what you had done before or weren't what maybe other people externally could like see or define as productive and like really, um, you know, same for you, kind of touching on different types of productivity and who kind of defines what those are.[inaudible].
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's just like your own definition. I've learned that in this new stage of life that I'm in this mom life thing. You define what it is that's going to make you the happiest. Um, and I feel like there are, you know, I talked about the hustle culture, there's also this like mom hustle culture, there's like mom culture and I think all of it just kind of tells you that you're not doing the right things at any point in time. Like whether it's breastfeeding, whether it's, you know, going to work or staying home and you know, I just, I kind of, what I tried to do was as soon as I got pregnant I knew I was going to tune out a lot of that nonsense because, huh. It was going to get to me. And I think that I, from a very early the point in my pregnancy, I said, I'm going to define okay, what it is that is successful to me in, in this, in this new stage. And that meant to me maybe not taking a year, a full year off of work. It meant coming back at eight months. And the reason why is, you know, for my family, my husband defined his a part in this because let's remember, it's not just, it's not just one person when you're dealing with raising, you know, when you, when you are in a two parent home, it's, it's, you know, two people are very much involved. He defined his as taking the time to be on parental leave. Not a lot of people can say that and I feel like we've, we've navigated it as such that I went back to work, my husband is like the, uh, the awesome stay at home dad and he, that's, that's his definition of being successful, his definition of being productive. And some people don't define it as such. People, I've gotten comments before where it's, Oh, you're at work, well, who's taking care of your son? Or you know, whatever. And it's just kind of like, obviously I thought about this and I've obviously made plans for my son. You know, people have their own definitions and, and you have to define it for yourself. Cause I feel like if you just stick to what society or[inaudible] groups of different types of people, you're not going to be happy in whatever it is that you're doing. And you're always going to just feel that you're not enough. Like I'm looping it back. But the reality is is that I feel like I'm doing a good job now because I made those success metrics. I made sure that I was defining it the way I want it to define it. I wasn't going by what other people said I should be doing or the way I should be rearing my childhood, the way I should go back to work. So I think that's super important to define what it is that you think is successful and then just go on them.
Speaker 5:Yeah. Well it's like if you don't have any constraints or any sense of like what you care about and you're just gonna try and do everything and then you're gonna burn out and not realize you didn't even do the things you wanted to do in the first place.
Speaker 2:Exactly. Exactly.
Speaker 5:Yeah. I think I love the message of just defining what success looks like for yourself because
Speaker 2:if you don't, I feel like so many people don't take the time to do that. And if you don't, it just makes it so much easier. Like you said, like we have all this external messaging coming in, our feeds in our faces all day, every day. So if you don't have, if you aren't meeting that with just as strong as like your own personal definition, then you're so much more easily influenced by, you know, comparing yourself or you know, not feeling like you're doing the right things. And I don't think if you kind of think of yourself as a strong willed person, that doesn't seem to be affected by the external messaging because I consider myself pretty strong willed and you know, I define what it is that I defined, but regardless of what that is, I still can look at the way some people are living in and still reflect that back to myself and say, am I doing enough? And everybody feels this way. If they say that they don't, they're lying to you. It's really just you really have to take ownership and you know what, and it's sometimes it is sitting in those negative feelings and owning that like, okay, I feel like absolute shit today and why? Because I've saw this and you know, what triggers you and you kind of stay away from the things that trigger you and then kind of go back to the root of what it is that you define as success.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I actually use that. I was going to say I use my, um, my inclination to compare myself. I use that as like a trip wire for when I'm not doing enough dinner work. So that is a clear sign to me. The second that I'm scrolling through Instagram or I'm just like, you know, off on a mental tangent, comparing myself to someone, that to me is like the biggest warning sign of wow, I need to get my priorities in check. I anticipate it down. I need to just like take a moment and remind myself of who I am and what I care about. So my first like three weeks in Vancouver, I spent a lot of time around other people it, which was amazing. Everyone was so friendly and inclusive and it was this really amazing experience. And then there was like a Monday night, I found myself with no plans literally for the first time in like three weeks and sent me to humble brag. But it's really hard[inaudible] so busy. It's like the context is like I'm an introvert. Like I recharge being alone. I like my period of time and I kind of panicked and I was like, oh my God, what do I do? My apartment wasn't set up and I just felt very ungrounded and I had to physically like forced myself to be like, okay, what would I usually do if I was like back in Ontario and I had my house set up and I was like, oh, I would go get food and like a nice bottle of wine and I would like put on good music and I would sit down and I would just like write. And so we did that for like five hours and by the end of those five hours I was like, oh, thank God. I'm like back to myself. It felt like I had like come home.
Speaker 2:MMM Wow.
Speaker 1:But I had just been, yeah. And that constant feeling of like so stimulated by all these external things. I didn't take the time to check in with myself to actually see how I was doing. And that was like a really extreme example. But I still notice that throughout my day where I'll just be like, you know, if I find I'm feeling really ungrounded, that's my time to check in to see what's going on.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I asked, so funny how you said that you kind of went back to who you were, right? Like writing is your thing, so like that kind of brought you back. Like it, it jostled you back into reality at humble. Do I find so many times when I find that, um, you know, kind of getting off off center, um, you know, physical activity is a huge thing for me. So it's like, you know, other, it's taking a dance class, like I said earlier, doing acrobatics or going to the gym. I find if it's those going back to those three, I can come back and I can center myself and really just kind of, you know, take stock, take account, look inward and then I'm ready to kind of recharge and go again. But it's so important to go back to the things that you know in order to kind of, you know, move forward. Right? Like, yeah. It's interesting that you said that.
Speaker 5:I feel like it's what I'm hearing. We're both in. You're saying it's like, it's sort of this like endless, like the work like never stops, you know, like you're kind of continually checking in and, and looking for different trip wires and yeah. Finding like when you're off balance and uh, I feel like for me, I've almost, I was saying this to my partner today, like I've swung to the other and that attention them where I'm like, am I too far on like the life side of worklife balance? Do I not give enough fucks about work ready now? Like, I don't, I feel like I'm still pretty productive, but I don't know, I almost get like the opposite paranoia now of just like, yeah. Like am I doing enough? Am I
Speaker 2:okay?
Speaker 1:Am I standing sitting with a different name? Yeah. Literally. I don't know. I don't know who you guys, if you get that or um,
Speaker 5:if you still do feel a lot of that like drive in the professional like space and feel that like ambition or maybe it comes in waves. I don't know.
Speaker 1:I, for me it definitely abs and flows. Um, I remember when I started at Shopify, Shopify as my first job out of university and for the first two years I was like laser focused and it very much was my life and I took a step back at some point I was kind of just like, wait, like there are other things out here and it doesn't mean that like my career isn't important to me. It means that my career is important to me and other things are important to me, which is a very, all these things. But until you actually experience it, it can feel kind of foreign. And I think I do my best
Speaker 2:work
Speaker 1:professionally when I'm also feeling good outside of work. So when I feel balanced and I feel like I'm in myself and I am myself, that's when I do my best work because I'm not constantly consumed with, oh well I'm doing this, but maybe I should be doing this and why am I not doing that? And why is that person doing that? I should be doing that. And I just get to focus and breathe and just be happy with the contribution that I'm making. And then again, that opens up my mind to be able to think of like future plans and dreams and ambition and what do I want to do next? And all of that. But the two from you, like very much go hand in hand. And that's actually another trip. Wire for me is when I'm at work and I feel
Speaker 2:demotivated or frazzled or just kind of like off center. It's usually because I feel that way and the rest of my life as well. Interesting. Hmm. Yeah, I, uh, I'm the same way it comes and goes and I think that I'm just like Lily, when I first uh, graduated school, I was so focused on my career and just making a mark and making sure that I was going to be someone by the time I was a certain age and guys, I would say I've, I've already stated, and I'm over 30, right? So I feel like, you know, I, for me, back then I was like, oh, one up by the time I'm 30, I'm going to be this, that and the other. And I don't know when it was that I, that I hit a wall and I'm like, you know what, it's not all about this. I don't want to be defined by that. What it is that I do, nine to five, because life is just so much more robust than that. And there was a cool quote that I saw that was kinda like, um, I'm going to butcher the crap out of this. It's something like a, you know? Yeah. What was it? You know what, let me just paraphrase. It was something along the lines of, you know, you thought that when a baby was going to come into your life, it was going to disrupt, you know, the, the, the direction that your life was going. But instead it's added so much a volume to, to your life, right? So, yeah, before baby I thought, you know, this is where my life is headed. I'm going to be this type of person would be that type of person, you know? Um, and then, you know, you hit baby and there's just so much more meaning that my bet that he's given my life. And not to say that there wasn't before, but I just feel like there's so much extra volume, like the quote said in my life that I feel like it's, it's, it rings true even more now. It's not just about the one thing that you do. There are so many parts of your life. And I know, you know, there's, hm, there's the aspect of being a good friend. There's an aspect of maybe being that entrepreneur. There's the aspect of being a good daughter, a good sister, a good a partner. And I think that all of those make for success in life, right? So being successful at work is obviously one amazing aspect to us. Very much successful women. Yeah. But I think that it's not the end all and be all, but I know, yeah, that being at work, I still have to be driven. Something has to be, something has to obviously motivate me while I'm there. And, um, when I don't notice that I do okay. The check-in, you know, you have to always check in and say, you know, what is it? Is it the role? Is it, you know, maybe the people in you kind of take stock of that and then you kind of go from there. I think right now I've found a place where I'm super happy at work. Life is going over, right. Uh, I'm, I'm Kinda, you know, I, I've, I've found a bit of a balance, but you know, when it does get to a point where I'm down, I will take stock. If you know, it's, it's always, it's always an up and down, uh, flow of things and uh, yeah, you just always have to take stock of what's going on so that you can kind of move forward as such. Yeah. That actually that everything you just said. Um, obviously I'm welcoming. You're not obviously to people who are listening, but I am not a mother think about this idea of like having it all all the time and I think it's
Speaker 1:in Sheryl Sandberg's option B book. Um, and I'm gonna again, I'm going to paraphrase something. Um, but I was reading it when I was in Costa Rica in December and something really jumped out at me and it was essentially this idea of like you can't have it all, but you have certain things at certain times and that has been a total game changer for me because instead of putting all this pressure on yourself to have all the check boxes and say, you know, I will have this and I have this, this is exactly this, like perfect, tied up with a boat life. You kind of just give yourself the freedom to really, really enjoy what you have in the moment. And so for me right now, I'm like, I have an incredible group of friends and that's what I have right now. It's like I have amazing friends. I have this freedom to explore who I am and you know, move across the country if I want to. And I have a lot of that freedom. But I'm like, but I don't have a family and I don't have a longterm partner. But I'm actually very at peace with that because I'm like, someday I will have those things and I won't have other things. And that's okay. And that idea has honestly just like freed up so much mental space for me to just really, really sink my teeth into and enjoy the things that I have right now and not be consumed by all the things that I don't have because I will never have it all at once. Yeah, no, that's, that's I want to say preach. So I'm going to say no cause I felt that cause I feel like,
Speaker 2:yeah, there's this notion of wanting it all, having it all, having this amazing career in this, that and the other. And I know your initial question was being motivated at work and what keeps you motivated. But I think that there's so many other things that go into that. And like you said, having the amazing group of friends, like that's some people, some people don't have that and you know, and it's just, you're not going to have everything at the same time. You have to relish in what it is that you do have. And right now I feel like I'm, I've, I've worked to for the last couple of months of work to create some sort of stability. And right now that's what I have and that's what's making me super happy. That's what's making me super fulfilled. I think that if you ask me in six months, stability won't be the thing that I'm focusing on and it'll be something else. So I'm going to strive for whatever that is at that time. Um, so it is that that notion of you're constantly changing and you're constantly going after a new kind of goal or a new, um, something to keep you centered. And I feel like right now, right. I'm super happy with the balance that of string right now and, and Lilly, it sounds like you are super happy with what it is and then that'll change over the next couple of years. Have we, okay.
Speaker 1:Revisit this, uh, this podcast in like three years. Yeah. We'll see where our minds are at. Right? Yeah, I know that like I was, um, I was speaking on a panel at probably like five months ago now and the other two panelists were both mothers and someone asks a question of like, how do you, how do you have it all? Kind of Fonz was just like, oh, we don't, they said, which was really interesting is that they both said that they get three things and their, they get three things and those three things are their three priorities in life. So it's like family health and career or maybe it's family health and friends or something or any combination of anything. And those are the only three things that they spend time and energy on. And it was really interesting for me to hear it from the other side of like, even when you, you know, when you hit those things, milestones, like you still have to prioritize. And so I think people listening might be kind of like, oh well that seems, you know, maybe too rigid to say you can't have it all be, you have to focus on these things that you do have. Well, it's kind of just like, it's a reality. It's like you can't focus your energy everywhere. And that idea of like kind of protecting your energy is really important to me. And so it really helps me personally to say like, these are the things I'm focusing on and everything else. I'm just going to let it be and it'll figure itself out.
Speaker 2:I think that's the most realistic thing a person can say. I don't think it's, yeah, you're right. Some people might think it's rigid, but I think that it's the, like you said, the reality, I think that if I'm sitting here focusing on 16 different things, things are gonna fall by the wayside. And like the whole idea of multitasking in work does, it doesn't really make sense, right? You kind of have to give one task, your all then move on to the next task. Like you, you really have to devote and I think that's the same thing in life. You have to devote that time there. I feel like, um, yeah, if I'm, if I'm multitasking 16 different things, um, and my baby's one of them, like
Speaker 5:he's going to fall by me fall by the wayside with my baby. Like I don't want that to happen. Yeah. You're like, okay baby first
Speaker 2:and then everything else. Yeah. You, it's, it's like you said, it's just realistic I think.
Speaker 5:I think sometimes we forget it. This sounds so simple, but I think we forget that we're human beings and we don't have the same capacity as like the technology that we're using on a day to day basis. Like we have limits in terms of like the amount of things we can focus on and do it one. Then it's so easy to forget that like I have, I'm really resonating with you. Both are saying that like a really recent example for me was you know starting a new role at work and starting a new podcast but then I had this followup call with my coach from the coaching certification and I was like, I don't think that I can take on a client right now. Like I don't even think that I could do one because I wouldn't be able to do them justice or like really be involved in the in the coaching relationship how I would like to be and know. She asked this question of like what would be the signs that you could like when we, when where you feel ready to take it on and I was thinking about it and like, oh right. It's because there's so much that's new right now. Like I don't know how much time like doing a podcast takes up in my life. I don't know how much times like new role is going to take up in my life. So I almost need that grace period of like, let me just figure out the flow of both of these things. And then when I feel like I know that a little bit, then I'll know if there's space or time to, you know,
Speaker 1:bring something else in. But it wasn't super uncomfortable moment or like I just paid all this money to get my coaching certification. I don't have time to coach right now I'm in, I'm in the same boat. Like you know, moving across the country and like work being really busy right now and trying to make friends and I also not coaching right now and it's definitely like I feel very similarly where I'm kind of like, oh but I also, I had planned for this cause I knew that I was going to be overwhelmed. But I think part of it is just like giving yourself a time to have like that integration period to just be able to like let these new things kind of settle and integrate into your life before you can add in something new. Like it's kind of, I'm coming up with like a weird baking analogy right now and maybe that works and not much, but it's like you don't add all the ingredients at once. Maybe sometimes you do, but you add things, you have things in gradually. Yeah. So, so give things time to settle and get accustomed to each other before you start adding in. You know, everything else that needs to go in. And I don't know, I think it's really important to allow yourself the time to acknowledged when things are crazy and just be like, yeah, no, I actually can't take anything on. I need to let these things settle. I need to figure out what my life looks like now that I've decided to take on all these new things. And I think like the, I don't know if someone has said this already, but like the subtext of the hustle culture is that you're never doing enough, but you're also, but like, it's very gross. Um, so never giving yourself the space to actually like see what your life is like with those new things, you know, like you're not actually enjoying what those new things bring to your life if you're always trying to do more things. There's nothing wrong with taking a step back and, you know, welcoming these new, exciting things into your life without feeling like, you know, you need to keep feeding the beast, so to speak.
Speaker 2:Hmm. Yeah. I think it goes into just what we're, everything that we're talking about just pouring yourself into work. I think it's pouring yourself into the right work at the right time and saying, no, I've learned to appreciate and just over say no. Sometimes I'm like, nope, nope, nope. I don't want to do that. Nope. I'm, I'm good. Thanks. I've relished it and that so much in the last year that it's helped me, um, get clarity on the things that I'm currently working on. Like I feel like right now it's my, my life is very defined into kind of two waves. I'm, I'm a working mom, you know, I work at Shopify and then I'm, I'm, I'm a mom and all of the, all the other things that I used to do have been on pause. Um, and that's okay. It took me a while to be okay with that, but it's okay now. And it's funny, it was only recently that I was sitting at a team offsite. I was talking to my boss and he kinda came up with this idea for me to kind of do outside of work and I'm thinking to myself, I'm like, wow, that's amazing. That's actually that I want to pour into. And he's like, yeah, take your time. You know, you have resources here. He's going to help me. The, that idea that got me so excited that that is something that I'm going to create space for everything else. I just was like, nope. Nope. I don't have the time for it, but this, I'm excited to do it when the time is right. This is going to be something that I'm going to take the time to invest resources and, and mental space for and I'm going to gradually work it into everything. Like you said, you know, big with all of your ingredients that once someone started that bad boy in, you know, so I like the analogy, so that's why I'm using it again, but it's, it makes so much sense. Like I, I've, I've come to a point where I'm, I'm good with that. The, the, the balance that have stricken and, and slowly but surely this new cool thing is going to make its way in. But it was only at the point that I said no to a lot of other things because of that, the time constraints in wanting to be completely present in the current projects that I was working on, that I was a loud or I allowed myself to see this new project. Hmm. And I'm so curious, how did you know, like what was it that helped you realize that this new project was something worth pouring energy into? Interesting. So I'm just talking about it like I have not lit up. So full transparency. I mean, you both probably know this. I started a skincare business online like a year and a half ago, right. And Aye. Hmm. My past life I was a beauty buyer for an online store and um, so it was, it was kind of in line. I loved skincare. I, I, I used the product myself. It was African black soap, but somewhere along the lines of, um, you know, doing this business and then being at work and then doing all the other things I'm doing and then getting pregnant, I just got tired. It was the fulfillment, the, the everything. It was a lot for me and I just was not passionate about it. And you know, um, a friend of ours runs, um, you know, the bathroom business, Greg. And he actually sat me down and told me, he's like, if this is not something that's going to like jostle you had a bed and wake you up with the same excitement, don't do it. Yeah. You really got to know when the business is for you and you don't want to be doing something that you hate. So I took that and I said, you know what, let me just pause on this right now because I did at one point, really love it, but for some reason it was just wasn't moving me. I have no, I had no interest at the time too to pick up a soap bar to promote a soap bar. So I was like, let me just chill. And um, I had been chilling ever since. I, I fulfill a couple orders here and there of, of items that are already ready to go. But to be totally honest, it's, I don't think I'm going to pick it up anytime soon. But having this discussion with my, um, with my lead, he fit. So Amanda, you know this, I'm very involved in diversity and inclusion from a employee resource group standpoint. So I'm involved in the black employee resource group. Um, I am huge on bringing communities together. So he actually was like, you know what, you should think about starting a community of some sort. So when he said that, he just kind of started spinning off ideas to me and started thinking about where he saw me and the vision he saw for myself. And I'm, I'm thinking how did I not see this for myself? The excitement that I got in my stomach, I said, oh my God, I have to, I have to immediately like get a journal and start writing a bunch of things down. So it was, it was that moment. It was the moment that somebody else was speaking kind of life into me. And then, and then the excitement that I felt like I could feel the butterflies and I thought, wow, this, this, I think this is something. So, um, we, you know, I let it sit for a couple of days and when the, the idea could not pop out, like I couldn't get it out of my head. That's when I knew I was like, I think I have to act on this. So that was it. Yeah. So that was it. And it's interesting cause I, I w I was kind of afraid that I would never get to a point where I was going to[inaudible] doing something exciting on the side because again, we, we've talked about this. I, I've, I've used to myself doing that so many things and I was, I was, as much as I was getting used to the idea of doing the work and doing this I thought is that it for me, like I'm okay if that's it and I'm happy, but if I'm going to kind of teeter totter from being not happy and, and intrigued with whatever it is that's out there, I want to know what it is that's going to grab my attention. And so far this is Kinda it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that makes sense. That's exciting. That's so awesome. I see. It's, it's really telling that the, kind of going back to your point, I meant I've how you had to say no to a lot of things to get to the point where like you finally want to say yes to something. I think that's such an important thing to just honing in on is like yeah, that's how you get to the point where you are excited about something as you have the energy to dream about it and to think about it and to get them to pour excitement into it. And I think that is a really natural thing that happens is like if you live your life intentionally, things kind of fall into place. So it's not always how you imagined it would be. But things like, you know, they kind of crash into each other in a really[inaudible] way where like, oh it all makes sense now. And it's kind of this re very relieving feeling of like there was a plan, I just couldn't see the end result. Oh yeah. And another from the same Sheryl Sandberg Book. I really hope these are both from her book. Otherwise I'm just putting her whole book. But there was a quote from, not Sheryl Sandberg, someone else don't remember. I'll find it. And it was essentially this idea of like life can only be lived forward but can only be understood backwards. And that like hit me in the gut when I read it because everything we see, everything we think about is in hindsight, but we can only live forward. And so you kind of just have to trust this certain point that like the way that you're living forward is going to make sense when you reflect backwards at some point. Yeah. I uh, that's so powerful. I was thinking about, it's another book can recommend here, but I just finished the book essential ism and when you were talking I'm gonna and then, and then I'll see you Willie. Um,
Speaker 5:W it's just idea of like if you are saying yes to everything when that thing comes along that you're so excited about, you're not going to have the energy or the space at the time to actually do it. So if people have this like Fomo or this fear, fear of missing out, but actually like you're gonna miss out on something really meaningful if you're not being super deliberate with like what you're not saying yes to. And I almost had to apply this even like I had a very similar experience where I had this idea for the podcast and wanting to go back to ways we work and I had so much emotion around it because I burnt out super hard doing the website before. And so I was like, no, I'm so excited. I'm jazzed about this again. And then I almost went like zero to a hundred and I was like, this could be a conference, there can be a man. I think I should do all these. And then I was immediately like having panic attacks and I'm like, no, I don't want to do this anymore. I'm scared, like don't want to do any of this. And I had to like strip back and go like, okay, why did I want to start doing this again? Like what's my motivation? It's not, you know, I joke, I'm like, it's not my side hustle. It's a hobby. You know, like I'm being very like intentional with calling it that versus um, a hustle. Cause I'm like, it's not for me. It's like something that I'm going to do for fun and, and my trip wire is anytime it stops being fun, I'm not going to do it anymore. And that might change eventually. Right? Like I might want to make money from it one day I might want to grow it, but right now it's, it's not that for me and I have to be, yeah. So, so intentional about that. And I did this, like I did this literal walking myself off a cliff. Um, or sorry, talking myself down off a cliff. Okay. On the weekend where I was finding myself getting caught up and I'm like, I'm not making these like shoot Instagram posts for every episode. And I'm not like, I don't have a Twitter strategy and I'm not like doing all the things I could possibly do to like make this thing, you know what it could be like, what the hell am I doing? And I just, I stopped and I had to literally write, I'll, maybe I'll include a picture of it, but in my journal I was like, here's all the things you could be doing. Here's why none of them are important right now and here's why you wanted to actually do this in the first place. And then it's literally like a letter to myself,
Speaker 2:no lame but also so important. And I knew it's very important. It's very important. Do not get me started on like a, I mean I've talked about it, hustle culture and then like social media, I'm, I've for the last, like I want to say maybe eight months, I've had this weird thing with social media. It's every time I'm on it, it bothers me. It's just maybe because what I see seems a bit too, everything seems so contrived and I just, I'm hoping that everyone kind of goes back to why they're doing what it is that they're doing and not just for the likes. And yes, I know the likes had been taken away and it's this whole thing, but I just, I'm just so like I had just recently not close my page. I just made it private because I'm just more like a, you know what? I don't need the world. Seeing everything that I'm doing. Being an urban person does not equate the success that I think that I used to think, I used to think being open, people will find me in somehow. All of these opportunities will flow my way, but no, in fact people are just creeping on you. So it's like, I'm like, I don't know. I just, I I, yeah, the social media aspect of it, like I'm glad that you did take the time to just kind of humble yourself and say like, why is it that I did this? Go back to the root of it all because like again, social media has that effect on you to start making you think of other things that really aren't important. And like I've, I've had to take a few breaks here and there and just kind of being extra intentional. Like, I only literally only log on to post and then I'll log off just so that I'm not sitting there being, you know, wasting my time because there's so many other things that I could be doing. And for me it's just, I could be reading, I could be, I could be catching up on sleep to be totally, um, you know, and I just feel like social media has this way of pulling you into forgetting about the real reasons why anybody's doing anything and just get and glorifying the bells and whistles in the, we just have to learn to not let it do
Speaker 5:the comparison thing. Is there real? It's a real, it's a real trap to this whole thing of like feeling enough, you know? Cause yeah, I got caught up in this guilt of like looking at other podcasters who I love and I'm just like, oh man. Like they're hustling so hard. Like they've got all of these things that they're doing to like turn off the podcast and it's almost like this weird guilt of like, I should be doing
Speaker 1:the same thing. You know, like I should be trying just as hard or I should be, and it come from, I've actually started, I'm doing this thing every time I post a photo, I asked myself if I receive, if I get zero likes on this, how will that make me feel? And if the answer is like Shitty, then I don't post it. And then the answer is like, oh, I don't care. Then like that's the thing that I post and it's more often than not, it's, I don't care. But that was really important for me to do. And I think like to your point, Amanda, of like with the podcast, like you're, there's so many other things that you could be doing or whatever. It's also kind of just like, what's the thing you want to do really, really well. And what's the thing, what's the fun part of it? For the people listening who don't work at Shopify? Um, I spoke at our like annual conference in January and I got to do, um, you know, like a main stage talk and it was really exciting and that good. Thank you. Um, and it was so fun. I had the best time doing it. Like it was genuinely fun for me and it was obviously nerve wracking, but it was fun. But even after that I kind of had this sense of like, oh well like, you know, maybe I should be turning that into something else. Maybe I should be, maybe I should've written a blog sounding up the experience. Maybe I should, maybe I should be sending those to people to try to get on like podcasts or like there was just like so much weird stuff. I was like, wait, I was like, that's not why I did it. I did it because it was fun and cause I thought maybe I could help a couple of people and like it's, I wasn't doing it like, and I also, it wasn't something I had planned for a year. It was very low. It was also coming last minute. So it's kind of like, I dunno, it just feels like you should.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like focus your energy on the things that are fun about something. Don't feel like it needs to be this huge obligation all the time to do all the things if like that part isn't right. Bringing you a lot of joy.
Speaker 2:I love that cause like not everything needs to either be like publicize, monetized or sensationalized like, you know, like I feel like everything everyone does and we all fall victim to it. Cause I know for a fact I've done this before. Like you just kind of put it out there in hopes of like, oh, somebody will see it. It's like, it's, it's great. Um, it's creates visibility but not everything is about that. Right? Like you went on the stage and like you talked about something meaningful. It wasn't like you were talking about, you know, God knows what, it was very meaningful. It's very relevant to working in tech these days and talking about burnout and talking about the fact that like, you've really got to take, you know, a time to pivot and be okay with the pivot and all that stuff. Like everyone I feel could resonate with what you said and like that was the takeaway. That was the important thing. It wasn't about sensationalizing it to make it seem like, oh, this is what really does. Now we know it. And like, um, you, um, being honest and, and realizing that you, you actually went through the thoughts of how, how can I do, like, what can I do to make this bigger? And then realizing like that's not the reason why I always have to come to the reason why. Yeah. And um, you know, I think that that's super important into everything that you do because if you're just doing work for the sake of doing it right, nothing's going to be fun. So if you actually take, I want to say this take stock of or whatever, but if you're actually in the, you know, thinking really intentionally about the things that you're doing and the reason why the everything becomes a lot more meaningful.
Speaker 1:Yeah. 100%.
Speaker 5:Right. I wanted to just going back to be this topic of, you know, ambition and feeling like you're enough and work. How do both of you kind of discern when it is time to rest versus to push yourself or challenge yourself? Because I think that's one thing I see a lot of people challenge on social media is like, well sometimes no, you do have to hustle and sometimes you do have to work late nights and you need to push yourself beyond your boundaries. And so I'm just curious how you both think about that and, and how you, like how that shows up for you personally.
Speaker 2:It's a good question cause I feel, uh, I think we all know when we need to go a little harder than we, and then we, I have been doing I guess regularly, right? Like we all know when it's time to go the full hundred or a full one 50 whatever. But I don't think it's an everyday thing. I think that, you know, I, I know when my speaking of work, particularly, I know when our busy seasons are, and I know sometimes it might cause me to maybe online at eight o'clock to maybe answer a couple of emails. I'm, I'm, I've also decided a very long time ago, long time ago, maybe like two years ago that I wasn't going to over do it. You know, cause I, Lily, you've talked about this in your talk, we talked about burnout. I experienced burnout too. I think it was like 25 that I experienced burnout and I like popped a blood vessel in my eye from stress. And then it was then that I was like, okay, you know what like, and at this point, point in time, I was in like my first job at a school, it was with'em as an Econ merchandiser. And I remember I wasn't saving lives. That's what I had to realize at the end of the day that I'm not a doctor saving lives. I need to not be pumping blood vessels in my own eye to, you know, to get the work done. I understand working over time and I understand, you know, getting certain tasks done. But yeah, at the end of the day, if I'm like, if my body is feeling, you know, up against the wall and I'm stressed and I'm drained in a month, I'm not, you know, physically okay. Like that's, that's not a good, hmm. That's not a good, you know, meter to, to go by. I think we all know when we need to push ourselves and, and um, we, we should be, everybody should be taking time to rest every day. At the end of the day, you should, it'd be resting for the next work day if you're not working, if you're not sleeping properly, if you're not eating well, if you're not taking the time to get any sort of activity in, you're not going to be well. So I dunno, I just, I just, I'm a very realistic person when it comes to these things. Like I know that I, well maybe you need to log on a couple of extra hours at the end of some days during some busy periods. And that's usually it. I'm not here for staying up until four o'clock in the morning to get up things done. Like I'll try to prioritize my time beforehand to meet certain deadlines, but I can't push myself to a breaking point because there are so many other people that rely on them. So that's kind of where I'm at now in life. I think I'm making time for like raft and half full. I'll scan every day 100% it's an everyday thing. I think that if you're at the point where you have a deadline tomorrow and you did not prioritize this for the last month, hey, you're shit out of luck. You got to do what you're going to do to get that shit done. Right. So, but I feel like in, if we know that we are busy people, we have things to do, we have to try to prioritize and I know it's not gonna always be that simple and cut and dry. Like there are going to be some nights where you're staying a little bit later than you're used to, but I feel like you just kind of have to incorporate it. But there is a stop time and effort. There does need to be rest. I'm no longer a part of that. You know what, you got to grind. Sleep will come when you're getting no sleep, you'll die if you don't sleep. I might, I'm not here for that anymore. And like if you asked me at 26 I probably would've said something very different. But yeah, I'm at the point now where you can only be as productive as you are healthy enough to be right. So I think that you, it's prioritization and it's, yes, sometimes it's late nights but it's not all the time. You can't do it all the time. You will, you will burn out and you will be productive for no one. Yeah. Think the idea is like
Speaker 1:intentional rest and like intentional hustle if that's what we want to call it. That's kind of the big thing for me is like if I'm at work and I feel kind of like okay, I have a lot of shit to do. I'm like intentionally putting that work in and I'm intentionally putting energy into that. I'm not just like mindlessly online at 9:00 PM trying to like get something done that actually doesn't need to be done that day, which I used to do a lot of and that's like probably a big reason why I burnt title was I just felt so out of control that I was always online, but it wasn't intentional work. And because I was always online, I also wasn't intentionally resting. So for me it's a very like somatic thing when I know whether it's time for abreast or hustle and I can feel like I feel it in my body. I think also another thing like when I burned out, I looked into this idea of like chronic versus acute stress and um, there's this idea of like chronic stress is this like unrelenting emotional pressure and it leaves you feeling trapped and it leaves you feeling like you have no escape route and it's really scary and people don't only ever feel it at work. Sometimes they feel it in relationships. Like that's huge. That's like one of the biggest reasons for divorce is people feel trapped. That's true. And then there's acute stress and acute stress are these like kind of, you know, time blocked moments of pressure that actually are really, really motivating. And it makes me feel really intrinsically motivated because you have a little bit of, the pressure is on like the heat's on turned up a little bit and it feels kind of good. And I found through going through a really serious bout of chronic stress that now I'm able to better differentiate between the two. For me, like when I'm feeling chronic stress and like I have, I'm not to say that I feel it cause chronic by its name means it's you know, ongoing. But the second I start to feel stressed, it's like not exciting stress where it's not motivating stress. That's my big sign to slow down and to rest and to take a step back. Whereas when I feel stressed with like, oh there's a deadline coming up or there's something exciting happening, that's when I'm like, hey cool, like gas on the fire, let's go. But so for me it's a combination of things, but I think that that distinction is really, really important because chronic stress is like, it's really, really unhealthy and really scary.
Speaker 5:Yeah, you're giving me so much a relief right now. And just that whole explanation, this is so real for me because the whole difference between like intentional hustle and like intentional rest or, sorry, not the difference, but the like distinction in those two. I've been almost feeling this sense of like I, I don't feel a lot of urgency lately. I guess I almost lost that sense of, of urgency that I used to have, particularly in my work and even doing the podcast members like, oh my God, like did I break something foundational? Like what happened? But I also
Speaker 1:just as you were talking and like I realize like I was in a role for a year where
Speaker 5:it was so not clear to me how I could add value or what I was suppose to do. And that was like that chronic stress feeling of like I'm doing that much, but just sitting here and stressing about like what I should be doing or the value that I am or I am not providing and now that I'm in a role that's so much clearer,
Speaker 1:it's,
Speaker 5:it's almost like I, I have these moments of yes, okay. When I know exactly what needs to happen and I am clear on what I need to do, I can sit there and like crunch some work out for a few hours. You know like I can do that and I can hustle and I can have that sense of urgency. But if when I don't know, that's when I get like stuck and I'm just like okay so am I, and I almost start to panic cause like why do I know you feel this urgency to do this thing? Like why do I not feel that like drive to hustle. And I was like well cause I don't know what to do. You know, I don't know what the yeah because, and I read this article but I keep trying to go back to, it was on medium or something, but it was like laziness does not exist. And I remember seeing that. Yeah it was so relevant for me because what it went into, basically it's like anytime someone is lazy or is not doing something or not taking action, there is a reason for it. Whether it's like a mental illness or they just don't have clarity on what they're supposed to be doing or there's just something like there's always an underlying reason like humans are not lazy. And that was like such a nice like, cause that's something I genuinely worry about sometimes. Like well maybe I'm just lazy. Like I don't feel like doing shit, but
Speaker 1:no, there's clearly something blocking. Yeah. Interesting. I also think like, so I mean cause I've definitely felt that before those moments of like I just don't know what to do next and it can be kind of overwhelming. And I also think like for anyone who's maybe listening was like, well that's part of being an entrepreneur or hustling is like not having a lot of direction and like not knowing what to do next. Well yeah, my whole thing is like if you're not resting then you actually don't have the mental capacity to figure out what to do next. Because now when I'm faced with a situation where maybe I'm working all day and then I hit a roadblock and I'm like, shit, like I don't know what to do next, I actually, um, I'll walk away, I'll go for a walk outside. And like usually if I taking that time and taking that space and like letting my brain just do its thing, I'll figure out what I need to do next. And maybe what's next is like messaging. Someone being like, hey, how do you think I should approach this or or whatnot. But I think when you're in a state of chronic stress, like you actually don't allow yourself to take that time to figure out what to do next. And the idea of not knowing is so daunting that you don't even want to know in some cases. So it's kind of like you, you have to, you have to have both, you have to have the rest and you have to have the hustle and the way that you, you know, get that entrepreneurial spirit of just figuring it out and being okay with a lot of ambiguity is by also taking the time to take a step back and let your brain just like have creative thought and be healthy and you know, think about things like that's, that's the definition of creativity is when you can kind of relate to completely unrelated concepts to come up with a new idea. And that only happens when you're not laser focused on solving a really specific problem. Hmm.
Speaker 5:Yeah. The answer never comes from me or like the idea never comes from me when I'm training myself to my computer. I think it just goes and yeah. So I noticed where out an hour, and I want to be mindful of both your time, so I want to give you both a chance to just like share any kind of parting thoughts or something you want to end on. I think in terms of,
Speaker 2:you know, just, I, I, I can you talk about more my experience with just working intentionally and being motivated? I think, you know, over the years I found, um, different things motivate me. I'm, as I'm a changing individual, you know, different stages of my life. But the most important thing I think is just recognizing the season that you're in and just kind of trying to be present in that it's okay if your current season is not one of a constant hustle. I hate that word. But if there's not one of constant hustle or constant movement and constantly doing, it's okay if your season is just, uh, being chill, being rest, being rested, sorry. Um, and you know, uh, the cocoon, a analogy like we said before, um, those moments are probably the most transformative because they bring you to a level of just, they bring you to the next level essentially. And I think that it's a really important to, to sit in those, in those moments and really just kind of reflect and take ownership and stock of certain things you're feeling and certain things that you want to have change or what you don't want to change and what you're motivated by, what you're interested in because that's, that's what really takes you to the next level. I'm at a point now in my life where, you know, I am a new mom. Things have obviously changed considerably over the last year and I'm finding new things that challenge me and new things too. Um, that, that are interesting to me and I'm, I'm really enjoying that and I'm, and I'm thankful for the season that I had. I'm at home doing something completely different from[inaudible] constant go, go, go. That is the tech world that we, all three of us live in. Um, so if, if that's okay. If there's one thing I think to take is, is just enjoy the season that you're in, whatever that may be. You if it's go, go, go, good luck to you and just, you know, try to rest you said before, but definitely, definitely stay in the moment and enjoy your season because you know, it, it's ever changing and okay. There's always something beautiful about whatever it is that you're going through at them.
Speaker 1:I see. And in love genus. So hello. No Man. Then thank you for asking me like that. I'm thinking of like, oh, I hope I run out. Yeah. How about you Lilly? So I guess like thing I would say is, well, I'm going to tell it in the form of a story cause that's all right. Roll more. I tried to, but in a last September I started seeing a coach from Toronto and in our first session, uh, she asked me to, we did the fit guided meditation where I had to envision my future self, um, and I envisioned myself living out west and it just came to me and it was really lovely. Um, and she asked me, you know, like, how does that sit with you? Like, what does that feel like? And I was like, well, I know I belong there, but I'm not sure I belong there yet. And she kind of poked and prodded me on it. And what we came down to was, she kind of just said this really beautiful thing where she was like, not right now, doesn't mean never, and it's okay to really, really want something but not want it yet. Um, and I had never really had someone tell me that, that you're allowed to really want something and be passionate about something and like it also not being the right time. Um, and she told me, she's like, you're gonna know when it's the right time. And sure enough, I did. And it was like a month later where I just kind of have this moment of like, oh yeah, no shit, I need to go. Um, and it just made so much sense and I was like out for a walk and it just hit me like a ton of bricks. And it was like this really beautiful moment where I didn't rush it. And if I had gone any earlier, it wouldn't have felt quite right. And if I had waited any longer, it would have probably been underselling myself. Um, and that's just something that's really important to me. And I think part of that is like you're allowed to have ambition and want to grow exponentially and want to be the CEO or you know, maybe not the CEO or[inaudible] you want to be able to start your own business or whatnot, but it's also k to not do those things yet. MMM. MMM. And the last thing I'll say, I promise is this idea that's really important for me, which is having compassion for past versions of yourself. So kind of like what you were saying then at about seasons. It's also when you look backwards, like, you know, maybe being a little bit cringey or embarrassed about what you did in certain situations, but also having so much compassion and just being like who I was in that season brought me to where I am today. And there's something really beautiful about that. Um, and there's something very natural about that.
Speaker 5:MMM. I feel like you brought it full circle to your first answer, which was so amazing. You did.
Speaker 1:I remember my first answer was
Speaker 5:it was like, it was like about being like looking back and being embarrassed about then I'm just like, God damn, it's about back. I'm not going to add anything to what you both said because I think it's great, but I think if there's one thing I've really pulled out of this discussion, it's this idea that like, you know, best and trusting yourself rather than kind of external forms of what they don't let anyone else define what productivity is or what enough is like really trying to figure that out within yourself and trusting that like, you know that for you. Um, so if people want to get in touch with you or reach out a, where can they do that? You can find me on Twitter at Lillian. Kate's a, that's k t e on the end. Lillian, Kate and I. Yeah, that's probably the best place to reach me. Okay. Yeah, me too. Actually Twitter, I guess Linkedin, I'm a m e n a a a on everything a minute. Literally. That's my bad. That's my thing on everything. So that's how you can find the sound. Thank you both so much. This was such an enjoyable conversation and I learned a lot, so thank you. I was going to say I learned
Speaker 4:so much. I was like taking notes the whole time. Oh, that's amazing. I learned a lot too. It was really great talking to you guys. It's just fun.
Speaker 3:[inaudible]
Speaker 4:thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please take just a few minutes to rate and review on iTunes as a new podcast. This helps a lot and it would mean so much to me. As always, you can find ways we'd work on Twitter and Instagram. At least we work and you can find me at Amanda Wood. In addition to these interviews, I'd love to do episodes where we take your questions about the things you are putting work into at the moment and myself and a guest. We'll do the best we can to answer them. You can send those to Amanda at ways we work. Dot Io. Thanks again for listening and we'll see you next episode.
Speaker 3:[inaudible].