Discover Caving in Phong Nha with Hoàng Văn Hữu - Day 1 | On The Road with Niall and Adrie #3

"I can't imagine how massive the cave is... it could be fit one Boeing airplane in the cave, or four 50 Building Floors." -  Hoàng Văn Hữu

This trek through Phong Nha with Hoàng Văn Hữu offered an incredible glimpse into how tourism has transformed this region of Vietnam. What struck me most was the stark contrast between past and present - where locals once had to resort to dangerous activities like logging and collecting unexploded bombs for metal, they now have opportunities in the growing tourism sector. Hữu's personal journey from learning English to becoming a cave guide perfectly exemplifies this transformation.

The most fascinating aspect was learning about Son Doong Cave and how carefully they're managing its tourism. Limiting visitors to just 1,000 per year shows remarkable foresight in preservation, especially considering the cave's massive size - being able to fit a Boeing airplane or a 50-story building inside is mind-boggling. The detailed organization of the tours, from fitness checks to the high guide-to-tourist ratio, demonstrates their commitment to both safety and conservation.

5 Key Takeaways

The Life-Changing Power of Learning English – Huu shares how learning English transformed his opportunities in Phong Nha, shifting his career from farming to becoming a tour guide. 
The Danger of Unexploded Bombs – Many villagers still risk their lives collecting scrap metal from unexploded bombs, a remnant of past wars in Vietnam. 
The Conservation Efforts Behind Son Doong Cave – Tourism in Son Doong Cave is highly restricted to protect its fragile ecosystem, allowing only 1,000 visitors per year. 
The Toughest Challenges of the Trek – From river crossings to steep jungle climbs, this adventure demands serious fitness and preparation. 
The Evolution of Phong Nha as a Tourist Destination – Once overlooked, Phong Nha has transformed from a quiet farming region into a thriving hub for adventure tourism. 

Chapters & Timestamps

02:00 – First Impressions & River Crossings
06:00 – Huu’s Story: From Farming to Tour Guiding
08:00 – The Dangers of Unexploded Bombs
10:00 – How Tourism Changed Phong Nha
17:00 – Son Doong Cave: A Natural Wonder with Strict Conservation
22:00 – The Toughest Parts of the Trek & Fitness Requirements 

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Transcript

Niall: 1:23

What jobs would be available

Huu: 1:24

to you if you didn't learn to speak English? Farming, growing rice, cassava, peanut, corn. And why is it only limited to a thousand people? Because of the conservation. Yeah. The conservation rules.

Niall: 1:38

So we're here at Otato's Adventures. It's about an hour and 15 minutes drive from the main town. It's stunningly beautiful and then lots of Laos vibes. We're getting our briefing in a minute and then we're off on our adventure. We're going to cross through a river like we said, then we got to go through Ceebs. We're going to be sleeping tonight in tents by the river and then tomorrow night we're in our local homestay. So it's pretty cool, he was telling us on the way here the houses are built on barrels or they have an Outhouse, a second house built on barrows because it floods so often here and then the houses actually float and They're attached to a pole which I saw and I was like, why is that and they're attached to a pole So that they don't float away. So like he says they don't float away to Hanoi And then what's really cool is where they put all their electrical equipment into the flooring house, When the floods are coming, to make sure that when the floods are housed, all their electrical stuff is in the floating house, and then that goes up. That was pretty cool, we tried to get some videos of that, we'll try later on. it's not too cold, Adrian thinks it's cold. I don't think it's cold at all, maybe I'm born tough, I'm from Scotland. So today you're not, only coming here, you're also like, creating the job for the local people here as well, right? We're at the start of a three day tour, two nights, Hatien Endeavor Cave. We're going to do two caves, Hangtien, I keep getting it wrong, Hangtien Endeavor Tour. We're here with Oxalis Adventures, there's ten people on our trip which is pretty cool. I think they specialize in small group tours, so it's only ten of us. So we got Hu's, our main guide up the front, he's been amazing. Did a safety briefing before, so we know exactly what we're doing. We've got about an hour until we go to the river crossing, which just talked to a couple of people. Everyone's pretty scared and everyone's about the river crossing because we're going to get wet basically so we have to wade through a river going to be about up to our knees waist depending how tall you are. And we're going to get soaked, and then we have to keep on trekking in wet clothes, which does not sound that fun. And cold as well. Yo, what's the temperature right now, do you know? I haven't checked. It's probably like 19, 20. I don't find it that cold to be honest. Are you from Scotland? I literally was just about to say, I know what you're going to say, I'm from Scotland. That doesn't make any difference. I left Scotland because I hate the cold. That's cool. Oh, careful. Didn't see the step. We're here with Hu. he's our boss. He's the king. He's the king of the jungle. In the jungle. King of the jungle. Yeah, in the jungle. And he's going to be, taking us safely through the jungle over the next few days. So Hu, you said you're local.

Huu: 4:18

You're from? I'm from Phong Nha.

Adrie: 4:20

Yeah. Yeah,

Huu: 4:21

I'm living there. But today I've just taken you to the jungle in this area. It's quite far away from Phong Nha, but I've been here for many times, No worry if we get lost, okay?

Niall: 4:32

How many times have you done this? Oh, so

Huu: 4:34

many, maybe more than 100. Yeah, 100 times. So do you

Niall: 4:39

ever get bored of doing this? Or

Huu: 4:41

do you think it's amazing every time? To be honest, we have very nice scenery and we have very nice landscape and I'm really love like caving. Yeah. So that way I'm really enjoying that and I never get bored from the job. Oh, very nice. Every day I can. Enjoying my life in the jungle. I can take some people to go to see how beautiful of our country. Yeah, and I can learn from, many things from our clients. Yeah, about the culture, people, yeah, or whatever. Especially I can share, and I can introduce the beauty of my country to the other people around the world.

Niall: 5:30

That's awesome. Did you, when you were growing up, did you realize that you lived in such a beautiful place or it was just normal to you? Oh, it's just normal to me. Yeah. But

Huu: 5:40

sometimes, I still see it's really beautiful and special. Yeah. For me as

Niall: 5:47

well.

Huu: 5:47

Yeah. It's always beautiful. So how old

Niall: 5:52

were you when you first did this tour or you first went caving?

Huu: 5:56

I started doing this three years ago.

Niall: 5:59

Yeah,

Huu: 6:00

and this is my first time job.

Niall: 6:01

That was your first time going, doing this cave? Yes. Wow. Yeah.

Adrie: 6:05

Yeah.

Niall: 6:09

So how did you find the job? Like, how did you

Huu: 6:11

apply for it? So I'm living in Phong Nha and the company is located in Phong Nha as well. Yeah, it's nearby my house. Yeah. Yeah. And I see tourism is developing very fast and it could be a big chance for you if you can't speak English. You can find a job easily. Yeah. So that's why I decided to go to this university. Oh nice. To study foreign languages.

Niall: 6:36

That's what I was gonna ask. So when did you learn English?

Huu: 6:39

when or where? When and where? I went to university in Dong Hoi in 2018. Yeah.

Niall: 6:48

Before that you couldn't speak English?

Huu: 6:50

Before we also learned English in the school.

Niall: 6:54

Yeah.

Huu: 6:55

But I not really English that much.

Niall: 6:58

No? Yeah. Too difficult? Yeah,

Huu: 7:00

it's too difficult for the local to speak. But when I met one teacher from the high school,

Adrie: 7:07

yeah,

Huu: 7:08

so she admired me about English very, much.

Adrie: 7:12

Yeah.

Huu: 7:12

And then I fell in love with English from that moment. Yeah. And I start learning English from the high school, end of the high school. And then I decided for my Nature, for my future, sorry. Yeah.

Niall: 7:27

And is that important for your future? if you hadn't learned English, what job would you do living in Phong Nha?

Huu: 7:33

Oh, my major would be, English, but it's gonna separate in many different jobs. Like teacher, operator, guide, yeah. Oh, you can do in business, like homestay. Yeah. Yeah. Hostel or something like that. But if

Niall: 7:50

you didn't speak English, what job would you be able to do? maybe guide? No, but like in Phong Nha, you're growing up. What jobs do? What jobs do people do not at Oxalis? what jobs would be, what jobs would be available to you if you didn't learn to speak English?

Huu: 8:10

farming. Yeah. Mostly farming. Yeah. Yeah. Growing rice, cassava, peanut corn, and even Acacia. Yeah. The plants behind.

Niall: 8:19

Yeah, these are the main jobs. Yeah, and I assume they don't pay as well as they don't it's not a good future or a good job

Huu: 8:28

yeah, and the income is not really much. Yeah. Yeah for them as well Yeah And before many people they also went to the jungle for logging hunting and cutting off the tree as well they're gonna try to do anything for making money Even cutting off the bomb, yeah, they show the bomb as well For the, metal? For the metal, for the shells and for the dynamite inside. Shit! Yeah. So

Niall: 8:56

that must be so dangerous.

Huu: 8:58

Yes, they know that, but they had no choice, They had no choice before. Yeah. Even it's, Still like illegal. Yeah, but they still try to do that job. Anything anyway. Yeah.

Niall: 9:12

So are there still a lot of unexploded bombs around here?

Huu: 9:16

Oh, yes, because this area is quite massive and huge.

Niall: 9:19

Yeah.

Huu: 9:19

And during the wars, they dropped a lot of bombs around the area. They try to remove and they try to take off the bomb in the area, but it's not really easy for them. Yeah, they said it could be a long time, maybe more, many years, yeah.

Niall: 9:39

So do people sometimes still stand on the bombs and they explode or they're very rural? Yeah, so

Huu: 9:44

before many people they got killed from the bomb, because most of the people in The village, they are farmer. They went to the farm and they click to the bomb, they step on the bomb, and the bomb explode. Yeah, and then they got killed. Yeah. Some people, they still lucky. but it's not really much, but they still lose some part of the body, like the hands, legs, or something like that.

Niall: 10:07

Yeah. Yeah. but it doesn't happen as often now.

Huu: 10:11

Yeah, not really much. Yeah.

Niall: 10:12

Have they cleared the, have they cleared the bombs from where people go? Like from the farms? Yes. Most of the bombs are like far out.

Huu: 10:19

Yeah. So after the war, there was a, an organization, a non profit organization from Germany. It's called MAG, M A G. Yeah. They came to this area and allowed the country to, clear the bombs and to fire the rest of the bomb and explode it in the jungle. Yeah. And now they, they still keep doing that job.

Niall: 10:42

That's awesome.

Huu: 10:43

Yeah.

Niall: 10:44

So you're a, you're 26. Yes. You've seen Fya change massively. Like we're staying at the Fya farm, stay with Ben Mitchell, and I think he's been here like 20 years. Yeah. Everybody knows Ben, right? Yes. Know. And you know him as well, everybody. He's done a lot for tourism here, right? Yeah. So how different is Fang Yang now? Compared to like when you were a child?

Huu: 11:07

It could be a big change for Fong Nha. Just before, Fong Nha was famous about some kind of public cave. Phong Nha or Paradise Cave.

Adrie: 11:18

Yeah.

Huu: 11:19

And there was not many homestay or hostel around. Yeah. Most of the tourists, they just came to Phong Nha and then they stay. They gonna visit the cave and then they came back to the city.

Adrie: 12:07

Yeah.

Huu: 12:07

Yeah, they don't stay like overnight in Phong Nha because not many chance or not many accommodation around. Yeah, they just spend the time in Dong Hoi City. And with some more luxury service by the hostel, even resort or something like that. Yeah, but nowadays there's so many like homestays or hostel, even villas. Yeah, good building in Phuong Nga. And the tourists, they have more chance and More like option to be here.

Niall: 12:43

Yeah. And how has that made a difference to people's lives here?

Huu: 12:47

Oh, so people are also involved in tourism. Yeah, because When the tourists come here, they stay overnight here and they're gonna make the job opportunity for the local people. Yeah, they can take care of the tourists in tourism. Yeah, like doing like homestay and hostel.

Adrie: 13:04

Yeah.

Huu: 13:04

Yeah. And most of the poor here, they are local people as well.

Adrie: 13:08

Yeah.

Huu: 13:09

And they are like involved in tourism by working for Oxalis and some other companies around the area. Yeah. Yeah.

Niall: 13:17

And so their life is better. Yeah. Yeah. It's

Huu: 13:20

better. Yeah. Compared to

Niall: 13:21

before. Yeah. Yep. So when they found Son Dung Cave in what year again?

Huu: 13:28

they found Surnong Cape in 2008.

Niall: 13:31

Yeah.

Huu: 13:31

And they took one year to survey and explore the cave.

Niall: 13:35

So you were quite young then, do you remember when they found it?

Huu: 13:39

I heard some other people said, many people they had been in the cave before. But at that time tourism was developed yet.

Adrie: 13:48

Yeah.

Huu: 13:49

Yeah, it was not developed yet. the people actually, they didn't care about the cave that much.

Adrie: 13:56

Really?

Huu: 13:56

So even the, yeah, they check in the cave, they show the cave and it's so huge, massive, with the wind blow out very strong, like a storm. Yeah. But they mostly use the cave for sheltering or hiding from the rain or the sun or something like that. Yeah. And then they quick the cave. Yeah. And they found the Cape in 2008. When there was a local guy in Nia. Yeah. He spoke up with the Cape expert. Yeah. Yeah. They're working for solid, the department with the, they are called Cape Expert,

Adrie: 14:33

right?

Huu: 14:33

Yeah. And they tried to file the cave in the area and they filed the cave in 2008.

Adrie: 14:40

Yeah,

Huu: 14:40

but the guy said he's first seen in 2000, in 1990, yeah, in 1990, and, yeah, when he hiding from the rain and he saw the cave, with the wind blowing out.

Adrie: 14:53

Yeah.

Huu: 14:54

Yeah. This was a local guy. Yeah. He's a local guy. Yeah. Yeah. But he didn't care about the cave at that time, and then he quit the, cave. Yeah, until the cave expert, they tried to ask some local people around. Yeah. Yeah, and then he spoke up with the cave expert.

Niall: 15:11

Oh, no way. So the cave expert came in 2008? No, the cave expert

Huu: 15:16

before. They came here in 1990 by their hobby. Yeah. And then they asked the government for the permission to stay here to explore the cave. Yeah. Yeah, and then they work along with the local guy in Phong Nha and they found the cave in 2008. That's crazy. So have you been to it? Oh, not yet. Not yet? Not yet. One day? Yeah. It could be soon. Really? Yes. How long does

Niall: 15:43

it take to get there?

Huu: 15:46

it could be three and a half years, at least three and a half years. Waitlist? Yeah, because we separate the guide level in many different level. Yeah. The guy driving many different levels. if you want to be in Suriname, you need to get the Esprance, at least Esprance level.

Niall: 16:05

Oh, so the wheel is as a guide to become a guide in. Yeah.

Huu: 16:11

Now even I'm an experienced guy, but it's not that enough level. Yeah, so I'm still Doing to level up myself. Yeah. So how many years

Niall: 16:21

you said you've been doing it

Huu: 16:22

now? This is my third year. Yeah, and you may have

Niall: 16:25

to do it for another three and a half years. Yeah One and a half more years. Oh one and a half more years. Yeah So how many guides are there for the Son Dung Cave?

Huu: 16:35

now we have seven or eight guides.

Niall: 16:39

Yeah.

Huu: 16:39

Yeah, doing Son Dung tour and we have around six safety specialists. They just been trained to become the specialist from the senior guide, from the local guide. Yeah. Before most of the Son Dung tour will be, take care of the, the safety by the Cape Aspect. Yeah. But now they just like train for the guy in our company to become the safety specialist. So they can go along with the tour to take care of the safety. Yeah, like a team, as the team. Yeah. Safety specialist, yeah, so they don't need to go along the tour that much like before. Yeah, so they can take in turn to be there. So how long is the wait list

Niall: 17:32

if you want to do the cave yourself? Sendong? Yeah, like me, if I wanted to do the cave, how long would I

Huu: 17:38

have to wait? one year in advance. One year? Yeah, one year in advance, because every single year we just limit 1, 000 slugs to do that. That's amazing. Yeah. And why is it only limited to 1, 000 people? because of the conservation. Yeah. Yeah, conservation rules. And because, of the unique of the cave, and we want to make it worse.

Niall: 17:58

That's amazing that you've done that from the beginning because Yeah, I'm sure you could fit like way more people. We got a bike coming our way Yeah, how is there a bike on this path? We got two bikes How many tours are there a year so it's only 10 how many people go on one tour

Huu: 18:15

10 people So that's the tourist.

Niall: 18:18

Yeah.

Huu: 18:18

Yeah And we said that we're gonna have around 25 26 people from Australia to spot for 10

Niall: 18:26

tourists

Huu: 18:26

What so this could be around 35, 36 people in the cave. Yeah, on that tour. So why is there so many staff compared to this tour? Because that tour has had so many, challenges and many different activities. Yes, and it's quite far away from the town. So we need to carry enough food. And they stop for four days and three nights. Yeah. That's why we need really big people. Yeah.

Niall: 18:56

Alright, we're going to take a break right now because we're about to cross our first river.

Huu: 19:02

No, you're gonna be wet anyway. Don't try. Just step, just walk through it. Yeah, no choice. Sorry, but no choice.

Niall: 19:13

We got our first river crossing. Oh, it's really hot. 40, 41 degrees Celsius, 40, 40,

Huu: 19:28

41 degrees Celsius. Yeah, I'm sure that you cannot enjoy it that much

Niall: 19:35

in the summer. Now we have the perfect weather. So I'm back with Hu. We've just gone through the water, which is what everyone was worried about. is that it? Are we done with water or we have more

Huu: 19:45

water?

Niall: 19:46

We

Huu: 19:46

still have more river crossing after lunch.

Adrie: 19:49

Yes,

Huu: 19:50

now we are heading to the lunch spot.

Adrie: 19:51

Okay.

Huu: 19:52

Yeah.

Adrie: 19:53

That's the

Huu: 19:54

last level, the last river crossing before lunch. Yeah, there will be more. That wasn't too bad. Yeah, it's gonna be higher. So finish

Niall: 20:02

telling me about Son Dung Cave and then we'll get ready for lunch. So you said there was 25 guides for 10 people and it's limited to a thousand. So that's only a hundred tools a year.

Huu: 20:12

Yes. Not a hundred to a year, but this tool we, this year we want to expand more. Yeah. Maybe, like few more tools, like five to seven more tools. Just we want to make small chance or more opportunity for tourists to be there.

Adrie: 20:29

Yeah. Yeah.

Huu: 20:31

So at the beginning we just limit 300 slots. Wow, only 300 per year in the beginning. Yeah, but now we just expand up to, 1000 slots. Yeah. There should be more this year. And does it keep it nice? it keeps the cave

Niall: 20:48

in good condition?

Huu: 20:49

Oh yes, because we need to like, give the cave, every, cave need to have a right time to recover. Yeah. After the season, and it's also for rainy season as well, yeah. So we now stop two months for rainy season, from mid September to mid November. Yeah, and in every single month we're gonna open a route. 15 tours.

Niall: 21:14

So are you excited to do it one day?

Huu: 21:16

Yes, very excited because I read the documentary about the cave and I can't imagine how massive of a cave.

Niall: 21:24

Yeah.

Huu: 21:25

You cannot, imagine how huge this is. It's got its own weather system, right? Yeah, this could be fit one Boeing airplane in the cave, or four. 50 Building Floors.

Niall: 21:36

Yeah, with 50 high.

Huu: 21:38

Yeah.

Niall: 21:39

Oh my goodness.

Huu: 21:40

Yes, the cave especially, could be very, high.

Niall: 21:44

Yeah.

Huu: 21:45

And the biggest chamber of the cave could be 200 meters.

Niall: 21:48

Yeah.

Huu: 21:49

200 meters in the biggest chamber.

Niall: 21:51

Yeah.

Huu: 21:52

And 160 meter wide. Yeah.

Niall: 21:55

Amazing.

Huu: 21:56

you're the king of the jungle,

Niall: 21:57

right? Yeah. So you can send people home if you want. You can kick them off the tour. Oh yeah. Later on, I want to hear if you have any stories about kicking people off the tour.

Huu: 22:07

Oh, actually it's never happened. Ah, it's never happened. It's never happened in my tour yet. But in case, we still have some people that we need to send back to the office because of the fitness problem. Because before we didn't have the check in advance. Yeah. Anyone, they can't book the tour with us, so they can't skip the finish test.

Niall: 22:30

Yeah.

Huu: 22:30

So we don't know how strong they are and how finished they are. So some people, when they've been in the tour, yeah, they couldn't finish themselves. Yeah. And they felt really tired. So you didn't kick them

Niall: 22:44

off the tour, but they had to leave the tour.

Huu: 22:47

Yeah. So they had to leave the tour. But some people, they got in some accident. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. incident. Ah, Yeah, so we need to send them back to the office.

Niall: 22:58

Yeah, it's very well organized. So when we, you have to basically apply to be on the tour and it tells you all the fitness levels. I think there's five levels, right? Yes. Six levels in total. Six levels in total. And this is three. Yeah, we are three. We're on three right now, which is you have to be like moderately fit. So you fill in the form and then they call you. Did you, was it you that called me or someone else? Not me,

Huu: 23:23

the one in the office, the

Niall: 23:26

sales consultant. yeah, so they called and then they checked to make sure that you're not lying, basically. Yes, which you could still be lying.

Huu: 23:36

yeah, some people they're still lying on the phone,

Niall: 23:39

Yeah, so you try and make sure you're not lying, and then once they accept you, then you pay your money, you come up. But so some people still show up and they're not fit enough. Yes.

Adrie: 23:50

Yeah.

Niall: 23:51

So this is we're filming now because this is the easy part. This is the flat part. But then tomorrow we have some more hills, right? And then, yeah, the worst hill is on the third day, right?

Huu: 24:02

Yeah.

Niall: 24:02

The biggest one.

Huu: 24:03

Yes.

Niall: 24:04

So it's going to be 45 degree angle

Huu: 24:07

for

Niall: 24:07

200 meters. So that's pretty much just straight up almost. I'm not looking forward to that. It normally takes an hour, around an hour to finish that hill. So we've done a similar one earlier this year in Laos, where there's like a lookout point. I forgot the name right now. And it's pretty similar. It took us about an hour. And it may have even been steeper than 45 degrees, maybe 50 or 60. Same thing, like a limestone cast. And that was pretty difficult, but it was worth it. the view was amazing. Alright, I may need to pick up the speed a bit, right? We're going a bit slow. We're way behind everyone else, it looks like. But we have three other guides, so I'm with Hu, and then we got Car, and Toan, right? And then you bring all your stuff for the campsite which we're heading towards the campsite and the porters Actually take that ahead. So it's pretty amazing. You don't have to carry that much just your helmet your water bottle other essentials I got a dry bag for all this equipment or a dry box they give you and then the porters take all your dry clothes And everything you need for the campsite and go ahead