Finding Home, Identity, and Love in Vietnam | S13 E04 Craig Haggart

"I planned to do six months. I planned to do like Thailand, Cambodia, Laos, that kind of bit of Southeast Asia and never left Vietnam.... It's so unlike any other place I've ever been." - Craig Haggart

This episode was a long time coming, and it was more than worth the wait. I've been trying to get Craig on the show for over six months, and sitting down with someone who not only shares my hometown but also so many formative experiences was something truly special. As two Glaswegians in Saigon, the nostalgia and humor flowed naturally—and maybe a bit too much football chat!

What struck me most was Craig’s vulnerability and openness. From his journey as a gay man in Glasgow to finding community in Vietnam, and navigating love, culture, and identity—he told it all with humility and a cracking sense of humor. I know listeners will take something valuable from this episode, whether it’s a laugh, a moment of reflection, or simply a reminder of how far we can come when we step into the unknown.

Key Takeaways:
The chaotic beauty of Vietnam – “It’s so unlike any other place… the smells, the lights, the busyness—it’s sensory overload.”

Coming out in Glasgow at 14 – Craig candidly shares what it was like to come out young and navigate high school as a gay teen.

Vietnamese culture and family acceptance – Insight into being part of a liberal Vietnamese family and his relationship with his Northern-born boyfriend.

Scottish identity and sectarianism abroad – A raw discussion on how football-related sectarianism follows Scots globally, and how it divides.

Assimilation vs Expat life – Niall reflects on the expat bubble versus integration; Craig gives a unique view through his deep local ties.

Chapters & Timestamps

03:00 - Growing Up in Glasgow
06:00 - Football, Sectarianism, & Identity Abroad
20:00 - Coming Out Young & School Days
29:00 - Culture Shock & Arrival in Vietnam
31:00 - Assimilation, Language & Expat Realities
32:00 - Loving Local: Life With a Vietnamese Partner
38:00 - Homesickness & Escapes to Hoi An

Transcript

Niall: [00:00:00] So how did you end up in Vietnam then?

You've 

Craig: been here for seven years. Seven years. I came. Ooh. I think similar to you. I 

Niall: I 

Craig: planned to do six months.

Planned to do like Thailand, 

Cambodia, 

Laos that kind of bit of Southeast Asia and then never left Vietnam. It's so unlike any other place I've ever been. Um, the, the busyness, the smells, the lights, and then when you're walking down, boy Vien for the first time. It's just seems sensory overload. and,. But you see it from a different point of view. You're kinda like, " Huh, I'm home now!" 

Niall: Welcome to a Vietnam podcast with me, your host, Niall Mackay.

I've been in Vietnam since 2016. Came here for six weeks and it's now been nine years. I started this podcast in 2019 to share stories of people connected to Vietnam, In this episode, I'm really excited to share the story of someone who has been in Vietnam for seven years.

I've actually been trying to get him on this podcast for over six months now. Always love spending time with him, but I've never really gotten to know him, so I'm really excited about this. He's a director of the International Choir and Orchestra. He's a vocal coach and he is [00:01:00] also a fellow Scot like me, and not just that a fellow Glaswegian and is from the town over from me. So we have a lot of shared experiences and I'm a bit worried about how long this episode could go for because when you put two Scots in a room, there's a lot of talking normally happens.

The other thing I'm a little bit worried about is slipping back into my Scottish accent, which is full thick Scottish accent and people won't be able to understand the world. But anyway, let's find out how we go. I'm excited to welcome to the. 

Craig Hagger to a Vietnam 

Craig: project. Thank you very much. Nice to be here.

Finally. 

Niall: It's good to have you at last.

Craig: Yeah.

Niall: What took so long?

Craig: Um, I don't, I don't like my own voice I think is 

a 

problem. Do 

you 

think, 

Niall: Oh, absolutely. Um,

Craig: whenever I, whenever I do interviews or something and I, I listen back to my own voice, I'll just put it on mute and see how I look instead.

Niall: So I'm one of those strange people, but I think it's 'cause I do 

what I do and I listen to my own voice so much.

I actually don't mind the sound of my own voice, which I think is kind of weird, right? 'cause [00:02:00] most people are like, oh yeah. Yeah. But what you'll find from this episode and from doing this podcast, and you've already had a little encounter when you took the headphones off earlier. 

I remember telling this to someone recently, I was like, your voice sounds really sexy with headphones on.

And they were like, nah, nah, no, you're saying my voice doesn't sound sexy anyway. And I was like, when it doesn't, but wait till you put, wait till you hear your voice with headphones on. And as soon as they put the headphones on, they were like. This 

is amazing.

I don't wanna take them off 

Craig: sweet. Talking down the 

microphone.

Exactly.

Niall: right. You can suddenly, you're like, oh, this sounds really good, really good.

Craig: Apparently when you listen to your voice back, that's. How other people hear you, you hear yourself differently. And then when you hear yourself back, that's how other people hear you. So when I found this out, 

I was like, oh, surprise. People put up 

Niall: that. 

Craig: But,

Niall: Well, 

let's start, first of all, with a, a shared heritage. 

We're both Scottish, 

obviously, but you're from 

Craig: Lindsay, 

right? Um,

Kirk Intelli, technically right, which is, um, for those that don't know, is the, the town next to Lindsay that's maybe [00:03:00] not as, uh, as posh as Lindsay.

Niall: I was making you sound better there, 

right? I know, but 

you went to 

Craig: academy I went, I did go to Lindsay Academy. Yeah.

Niall: So if you know, well, if you're from Scotland or Glasgow, as soon as the World Academy is 

attached to the school you went to, it's it's up it's upper level. I didn't go to an 

academy. 

Thomas Mu Oh 

Craig: Oh yeah, just a high school.

Niall: Thomas Mu High School. 

 Just normal. Yeah.

Yeah. So we're quite a difference in age. I'm 42. Yeah. But we 

still 

did 

the 

same 

shit 

like drink. Yeah. And

do all that. What was it like for you growing 

Craig: up 

in Kirkville? 

Niall: until. Um,

Craig: Um, do you know? It was, it was great. It was great. I, we 

had, um, 

a really close group of friends, um, and 

we had 

the freedom then, you know, to, as I say, go to the Campsis. We'd go to each other's houses.

We'd 

play outside. I'm gonna sound like an old fart, but it was 

before 

we 

all 

had 

phones 

and iPads and um, 

so, 

and 

we'd, 

 yeah, we'd just, we'd we'd go around each other's houses. Um, a friend 

I met, 

uh, recently [00:04:00] from school, you know, when we were kids, we built 

a tree 

house in 

his garden 

and 

it 

is 

still 

there, um, still going strong, 

which 

is quite 

remarkable.

And, 

um, it was lovely and we all kind of lived close enough to each other and yes, although it was, 

it's quite 

a big. 

Town. 

Everyone knows

everyone. Everyone knows everyone and everyone's business and what they're doing and where they are. So that felt kinda safe, I guess. And then once we're old enough to 

remember, 

uh, I was desperate to go into the city center myself to get the bus in.

And, um, so my dad took me in 

a 

trial run. He kind of like, he, we went together, but I had to make all the decisions. So we, I had to choose the right bus to get on and he would just kind of kinda follow, give the bus the, the right money and stuff. And then see if I could navigate my way to the cinema to be canning galleries and get back in the bus.

And 

I was doing 

so well until, um, it's time to get the bus home. And next to the, the bus 

to 

Kelli was 

the bus. 

The 

bus 

to [00:05:00] Warsaw. 

So,

Niall: Wait, wait, wait. what? 

It's wildly different. 

Craig: so close in 

Poland? Yes. 

Niall: Yes.

Craig: Um, yeah, they were, and they were just at the stands next to each other. So I was just about to get on a bus to Poland and my dad hadn't said anything.

And, but I think that was about 

time, 

uh, piped up and was like, this 

is 

not the 

right bus son.

Niall: I'd been if we just left you. He'll figure this out when he gets to Poland.

Craig: take, this 

Niall: is taking a 

bit 

longer That's coming in.

I, I was just thinking about one, I think maybe the last time we really hung out, um, was when we watched Scotland play the Euros, which is 

a couple of 

years ago now,

and we watched it at, uh, the Rabbit Hole, Irish sports bar.

And one of the things that was so funny, right, so Ascots in Scott Scotland as a nation is. Awful at football. 

They have 

been 

for 

many, 

many years. But we have such hopes. We have such hopes that we're gonna do better. I mean, I remember all the way back to the 98 

World Cup, 

which was just after we were born, but I remember watching the 98 World Cup.

We played Brazil in the first game. We played Norway in the second game, I think. Then we Morocco [00:06:00] in the third game, we needed a drum. So hopeful and optimist team, we got fucking beat three nil. And 

you know, we're out 

right away. And one of the things I remember is me and you were talking about this game and we're like, it's the first game in the tournament.

And you're so filled with hope and wonder, and you're like, what if we win today? You know? But what if we qualify? I mean, Greece won it 20 odd years ago. What? What if we got to the semifinal? What if we won it? You just never know in football 

what 

could 

happen. 

We got fucking 

smashed 

in the first game and we got smashed in the second, and the third game was even worse than we went home immediately.

And 

it was like, 

Craig: We 

did 

get 

Niall: our 

hopes 

Craig: there is still 

always that hope. Yeah. Even, even there's a track record 

of 

being

 gl awful. There is always that in 

the back 

of your head 

is 

what if.

Yeah. And he, you know, in Vietnam, the the, the football times are late. Uh, awful times to watch it. That you force yourself, I'm gonna watch that game 

that starts at 

two o'clock. 'cause 

what?

if, what if,

Niall: Yeah. 

It's the hope That kills you. 

Craig: is a hope. The girls' still

Niall: I [00:07:00] just remember oh, hopefulness people right before that 

game. 

And 

I 

think 

we 

let in a goal 

after about 

10 

minutes or something that just dissolved immediately. But I do have, uh, a really interesting question for you.

I, I actually really want to hear your opinion on this and, and. It's related to football, but not really. No. I'll cut that bit out. 

Not 

related to football. I

feel that Scottish people, I, I used an analogy the other day, were like magnets. We repel each other. I've been away from Scotland for over 20 years now.

Can count on one hand the number of Scottish people I've met, befriended, hung out with. Really, really not many and not on purpose. Not because I've met them and I don't like them, just not generally somebody that I hang about with so much. Whereas we're talking about the rabbit hole, Irish sports bar. The Irish are the complete opposite.

I'm, I've traveled all around the world. You always meet groups of Irish. We lived in a shared house in Melbourne, downstairs. It's a shared house of Irish people. They all meet each other. They know like, who are your cousin? I'm cousins with blah, blah, blah. And they make a connection. That's why we have Irish bars, because they need somewhere to go.

Scottish people, I feel like are the complete opposite. Do you 

think 

that's correct 

or is that 

just 

my 

opinion?

I think 

Craig: there's more 

of 

the 

Irish. Uh, there's more Irish than there, [00:08:00] there are Scots. 'cause I, when I, whenever I meet a Scottish 

person, 

I 

get quite 

excited. 

I want to be their friend. Yeah.

Yeah. I 

Niall: there's just no, maybe it's just me. Maybe I'm just a dick. I don't know.

moved 

Craig: away

from you. 

Niall: I left for a reason.

Craig: And there is, you know, the Irish have got that culture of the Irish bars and the, the Gaelic 

football. The Gaelic 

football. I think there's more 

opportunities and more 

of them 

to 

kind of. 

Um, 

be as 

one. But for the Scott, I don't know, but we don't really have a, we we've 

got 

the, 

we've got a 

burn supper

Niall: uh, purposefully is stay 

Craig: away 

from

that. Well, 

I think, I think I I think you can see the 

Niall: problem. Well,

yeah. I mean, it's me, so, but what I think it boils down to, so I was thinking about this the other day. I think I was talking to someone about it.

I think 

it 

sadly 

does come 

down 

to football. Yeah. Because.

I, I, in Ireland, I, I, maybe the Republic of Ireland, they don't have that same division. Definitely between the North and the South maybe. But in Glasgow especially, it's so divided and so not naming any names, but there was a friend of yours that [00:09:00] came with us 

to watch that game, 

and she did not 

like 

me 

at 

all because I was a Rangers fan.

I'm not even really a Rangers fan. Like I don't care. I was a season ticket holder when I was younger, and she was a Celtic fan, and I just don't care. Yeah, like I couldn't give a shit. I've met Rangers fans who care, and they try and talk to me like I'm a bigot, or they try and talk to me, like I'm into it and I'm like, I, I literally don't care.

Like, it's not just Celtic fans. I think they're 

both as bad 

as each 

other, 

but I think that is part of the problem why Scottish people don't come together. Because immediately it's What school did you go 

to? 

Where 

are you 

from? 

What 

team 

do you support? 

Craig: that blue. I, I even had a taxi driver 

here 

ask if I'm blue 

or 

green 

 and I don't mind, 

I 

I'm don't. 

Support either way. But that if you get asked that by a taxi driver in Glasgow, then you've got to make a calculated decision 

of

Niall: part 

Craig: where, 

Niall: the answer. Yeah.

Craig: where am 

I?

Where am I going? Yeah. 

Niall: Looking 

around 

the 

taxi 

for 

any, 

any 

clues is wearing a cross, like, but this is crazy that you have to think about all of that stuff.

Right. And so I think I've shared [00:10:00] this story before, or I've shared it before. I dunno if I've 

shared it on 

this podcast. 

For me, the turning point was I, I was in New York. And Celtic were playing Di Ferland. They went in playing Rangers. They're playing di Ferland in the Scottish Cup final. And I'm like, I'm 3000 miles from home.

This is awesome. I, it must have been like 20, 21, 22. I was over 21 'cause I could drink. So 21, 

22, 

I went on a online forum. This was before Facebook, before all of that stuff. Like literally it was like an online forum. And I was like, where can I go watch this game? So somebody told me to go from this bar, couldn't find it. Found out eventually 

 I 

opened the door. And I want brand new rangers. Top on. I was like, I'm in. I'm in New York. I'm gonna go watch it with all these other Scottish people. I'm gonna have fun. I got the 

door open, 

 I 

got the door open about that much, and it was just a sea of green and white hoops, which is Celtic.

And that Irish guy just took one look at me right at the door. 

He 

went, you got tubby. Fucking 

kidding me. 

And I was like, shit, close the door. And I've never walked or ran so fast. I was like, what the hell? And got back on the forum. I was like, why did you send me that bond? Someone was like, [00:11:00] whoever told you that trick to, that's the biggest IRA Republican 

bar 

in New

York. wow.

And I figured out the timing. I just walked in as them filming had scored. They scored the first goal. Celtic ended up winning it because I saw the school later. But they, so I think to myself, thank God I was wearing my Rangers top. Because if I was in civilian clothes, I would've just walked in, ordered a beer, been in the middle of these green and white hoops, and then been like, 

I'm a 

Rangers fan.

Like I wouldn't have been able to hide it. Yeah. And probably gotten stabbed or killed or something like that, because that's, that is how violent and how serious it is. And I think it's so sad. And that moment for me was pretty much the start of me stopping being a football fan or a Glasgow Rangers fan.

I still, I'm 

a Rangers 

fan, 

but 

Craig: see it, you can see it much more. And then when you, when you tell people that aren't from Glasgow about it, they can't get their head around it it seems, it seems absolutely But then I've gotta say the Scottish people that I've met over here think. You know, when, when you do move to a different country, you have a different mentality, a different [00:12:00] mindset, and maybe a different view, and, and how you view people in the, in the world as well.

So I don't see too much of, too much at all. No, I'm gonna stand by that. I don't see too much of it over here. 

Niall: Don't see too much. But like I mentioned, I met one guy in the Irish

Craig: is that, is that what they call it now?

Niall: Is that what you got? The rabbit Irish sports spot. And, uh, fellow, a fellow Glaswegian and Rangers fan and a couple of things he said.

I was like, I said, you're talking to the wrong person. I'm not, I'm not like that. So some people do hold onto it, which is a, a bit of a shame. And I know we're talking about Glasgow a lot, but it. It is a unique place. I think I've been all over the world. I think Glasgow has its own, it's very different.

Craig: Yeah. I, um, I get quite homesick sometimes. And then. For you. You see, you, you think about Glasgow and you reminisce of all of what it is and its history and it's, it's beauty.

And then you go home for Christmas and you realize it's [00:13:00] for reason. It's always wet. People are miserable 'cause it's freezing and wet and dark and dark. The sun just

Niall: The sun goes, yeah. First time I took Adrie back, we were in, in winter, we're walking down Buchanan Street and she was like, is the sun setting right now? I was like, it looks like it. She like three o'clock. I was like, yeah, it is about right. It's going down right. I used to work in a call center just after uni and you would get there at eight o'clock.

It'd be dark and you'd leave at five o'clock and it'd be dark. I got half an hour a daylight at

Craig: It was ing. It was ing,

Niall: It's crazy, but I think it is a good place, but I, I'm glad I left, but it's interesting, it's talking about the accent. I don't think we've slipped into too much, but I would, I'll need to listen back.

Craig: I'm just, yeah, I was thinking, I hope there's some subtitles. 'cause I've spent all weekend with my brother and my best mate from school as well. Yeah. So we just went straight back into that.

Have you changed your accent? Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah, a hundred percent. And this is the problem, like sometimes I'm too Scottish for, do you know not so much Vietnamese. It's always been [00:14:00] Americans that have had the trouble and the English. Yeah. What you saying mate? Yeah. What

Niall: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's always English. They've got a cheeky comment to

Craig: um.

But, so then I've kind of, same with yours, I'm sure as well, kind of Americanized that a little bit. Slowed down like saying some things. Even now when I'm talking, you

Niall: I can hear you. Yeah. You're pronouncing everything. You're enunciating your words.

Craig: if I phoned my brother back in class, I was like, why do you sound like an ARS asshole?

Yeah. Yeah.

Niall: yeah, yeah, yeah. The best one I got, I was back home years ago and one of my best mates, I saw him in the pub and he said, why do you speak like you're not from Glasgow?

And what was, he said, why do you sound like you do? Oh no, sorry. Lemme say that again. What the fuck did he say? Oh yeah. Okay. And he walked into the pub and he says, uh, you don't need to speak to me like I don't speak English. And then the last time we were home, we had a Polish taxi driver. Uh, and so I immediately just slowed down the way I speak.

I didn't speak in my full normal, fast class weg. I speak probably the same way I I do now. Yeah. You'll never guess what he said to me. Why are you talking to me like I'm a fucking retard? [00:15:00] And I was like, oh. And Adrian was like, nudging me. I was like, oh, no, sorry. I just, I, I slowed down how I speak and he's like, I don't need to.

And I was like, yeah, he's a taxi driver. He probably heals every accent under the sun. He doesn't need me to like slow down.

Craig: I can't Glasgow taxi driver's there. That's what you, if you can understand the Glasgow cabby not coming from Glasgow, I think that's when you know, you've, you've reached your IEL 9.0 or whatever that should be the, the final boss level of getting in the back of a back of a Glasgow cab and seeing if you can hold a conversation for the journey.

Niall: I did miss that. The last time I went back I was in the back of a cab by myself and just talked to the cab driver the whole time and I was like, I do miss this. I miss this just like talking nonstop. But what I was gonna ask you was one of the things that I've changed, not just my accent and I was gonna note.

When I go back and listen to this and when you hear it, I think what you'll notice is if you're like me, there's an odd word that drips that drops in. So I just did a video last week and I was just listening back to it, back to it, and there's a couple of words like, uh, was it metal? [00:16:00] When I hear it and I'm like, it just sounded so Scottish.

Metal. Metal because I think maybe if I'm americanizing it, it'd be like metal. But then just like, just every now and again, there'll be a word that drops in the rest of it. I'm like, I sound pretty neutral. I still get people like, oh, you sound so Scottish. I'm like, I don't like, trust me, I don't. If you thought I sounded so Scottish, you can be fucked when you go there.

But then if, when you listen back, there's just the odd word, then I'm like, oh,

Craig: see, I don't, I don't notice the, the Scottish words that I drop in, but I do notice them, the Americanisms like, oh, I, I Philip your water bottle. I hate myself

Niall: Can he help it? Can he help it? Yeah. Now going back to being grown up in Glasgow. So obviously you are, ah, fuck. I don't know. I don't know how to say it. I've talked about so many people. This I don't know. Oh, I thought that was that you No, that's gonna be like a reference reaction. A dog. There's no dog yet.

I thought it was a do. Uh, did you listen to the episode I did with Z Win up in Hanoi? No. And so he, um, he was using the word queer, right. And I was like, we had a con conversation. I was like, am am I allowed to use that? And he was like, yeah, as long as it's not derogatory, right? Like as long as you're just saying, like talking about it.

Uh, but how would you like me to identify you? 'cause I [00:17:00] guess there's different ways. Okay. Gay is okay. I know. To now it's the, the other end as well. Like, is that bad? Like, am I allowed to say, are you gay? Like sometimes, I mean, I had this conversation even with, uh, I dunno if you know Hayden Lowry black guy from Canada.

And I was like, we had a discussion about can you call somebody black? And he was like, of course you can. It's just a description. He was like, there's no offense to being like the black

Craig: guy. It sounds worse when you're trying.

I'm, try not say that, you

Niall: know, like, yeah, yeah, yeah,

Craig: like I'm thinking about my grandparents who, you know, try to be pc, but the way you kinda manipulate that and it's like, ah,

Niall: I use it quite normally now and I still feel a little bit inside me and sometimes I see people react when I'll be like, oh, you know, the black guy. And I'll be like, but I'm like, I know I'm not allowed to say this. 'cause he's told me like, as long as you're not, and it was the same, I was up, I'm gonna cut all of this out.

Right. So call gay is okay, right? Yeah. Yeah. Because that's why I'm like, what? What do you say? Right? So. Growing up in Glasgow. You're uh, I was gonna say obviously gay, it's not obviously gay. It's obviously gay to me 'cause I know that you're gay. It's not, you're not obviously gay, but, [00:18:00] uh, you're obviously gay to me because I know that, what was that like growing up in Glasgow?

'cause I mentioned to you earlier, for me, I'm a little bit older. It was definitely a different time. I've talked about it and I, I don't know if I've told you this, I'm sure I have. I used to be homophobic. Did I tell you that? You didn't? No. No. So I've talked about it on this podcast a lot, and it was going to America.

Yeah. I met someone who was bisexual, a guy who's bisexual, and I was like, he's just fucking guy. He was just cool. Yeah. And I was like, we are an idiot. And he was part of that range of Celtic thing. I went to football games. Yeah. Wasn't my family where I didn't come from a homophobic family or anything like that.

But grandparents, you know, they're older, they make some, I think they called Michael Barrymore a big PTA one time or something like that. You know? Remember the TV presenter who was Oh, yeah, yeah. Who was gay and. Then he got charged with attempted mother or something like that. So there, there was a couple of negative comments.

So anyway, I was homophobic for no real reason. I snapped out of it as soon as I went to America. And now, uh, I'm thankfully not at all. But I know that that culture in Glasgow from me growing up was going to football anyway, very masculine. I didn't really know anyone. [00:19:00] In my school was gay for sure. I know one, at least one person came out years later, but going through high school was totally different.

Nobody came out now, from what I understand from like Gen Z, it's completely normal to come out at a younger age. You're kind of in between those two generations. So what was it like

Craig: for you? Yeah, I, um, I was, I was overall quite lucky.

Quite lucky. I remember I came out early as well. I was 14. I I, I must have been 14 'cause my brother's 13th birthday. So I kind of stole, stole the limelight from that. I'll leave it.

Niall: You still remember that I was my fucking 13th birthday.

Craig: um, so I told, I.

Niall: shit myself for a minute. I didn't press record. Go on from there.

Craig: Um, so I told my best friend in MSN it was

Niall: SN Messenger. SN messenger back. A SL.

Craig: Um,

Niall: Someone

Craig: said that if you know what a SL means, you, you need to rest your knees, check, check your

Niall: for me.

It's rest my back. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Craig: And I said to him, oh, don't tell anyone, but, um, I might be bi. He said, oh yeah, okay. Don't worry, I won't tell [00:20:00] anyone.

Next day in school. Greg, are you gay? Are you gay? Are you gay? And at that point, good job. At that point I was like, um, I knew I was, and I could either do this now, rip off the plaster, or deny it. Like a, like a teenage gay, like, no. So then I said, you know what? Yes, yes I am. And of course, that news spread like wildfire.

And was, was there anyone else in your school that had come out? Um, not when. I was at school. I think there was, there was a couple of guys who are, who are, who were friends. I think they kinda came out in, in their final year when I was sort of starting. So it, it was, it wasn't like a big taboo thing. Um, and on the whole, I think about 90%, I got you are always gonna get bullied in high school for something.

And just so happens that [00:21:00] being gay was quite

Niall: an easy one.

Craig: to, that's, we don't have to think about that or do anything clever with it. That's just, that's sorted.

Niall: I got bullied for looking like Damien from The

Craig: shiny

Niall: I just got called Damien like repeatedly and it's just so stupid now. I look back,

Craig: on why did that bother me? But yeah, didn't bother me.

When I, when I met my mate last weekend, we were, we were just reminiscing of all the stupid nicknames we gave people in school for doing something. Abs you can't. Just so redundant. Just the tiniest little thing. Um, I can't even think of any off the top of my head now

Niall: though, but, well, we had a similar one, but it wasn't even a nickname. It was just his name. So the poor guy, I doubt he's ever listening to this, but Alan McMillan, if you're ever listening to this, people would just say, and I don't remember if I ever did it, but it would be on like a bus to the swimming pool or a school trip, and people would just be like, Alan McMillan.

I million just saying his name, but saying a stupid voice and you say it repeatedly and that you could see it bothered

Craig: them and it just.

Yeah.

Niall: of bullying someone. It was just like now as an like, that's fucking ridiculous.

Craig: [00:22:00] Yeah. Have you, have you had a couple, like, I can't remember any of them now off the top of my head, but it was, it is, it's just you do one thing that can just

Niall: ruin your high school life.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. For

Craig: And it could be, I, my other nickname I got was, uh, KUKA. Co wait.

So when you apply for uni in Scotland, you have to apply through ucas. So we are sitting in this big assembly, we're getting lectured about the UCAS application. I applied for music college, which is the, uh, same kind of thing, but it was called ku a. So I'm sitting in this assembly and I, I put my hand up.

I'm like, and miss, excuse me, what about Cocas? And this is the funniest thing that, that other 300 kids had heard, and I,

Niall: snotted, I I want to call you Coca

Craig: Coca. And I get, I get called cocas for the rest of my school life. I even get a coca in the back of my lever's who days.

Niall: it's brilliant.

Craig: Just for that one, one question.

Niall: I love it. That's amazing. then. Was it partly 'cause you were in an academy, so you were in a nice, I I, I, [00:23:00] I imagine a nice. Academy. I went to Thomas Mu High School, which is a non-denominational school, and I was in this, we were in Bishop Briggs Spam Valley, and I didn't really explain what that meant, so it was.

My parents best thing they ever did, moved to beautiful suburb, beautiful house that they could not afford. We always had food on the table, but we, we couldn't afford that house. And maybe the wrong decision, but ultimately the right decision, partly so I can go to a good school. Yeah. So even though Thomas Muir High School was not the best school in the world, it was still a good school.

But as you probably know, Bishop Briggs is right next to like B and and Poso and all of these really quite rough and bad neighborhoods. Poso especially. And we took in a certain amount of those kids as well. So I went to school with some people who lived in Bishop Break, came from really nice middle class families.

Mine were more working class family, but some really nice middle class families. Were gonna go into university to be a doctor and a lawyer and, but then we also had these absolute bands that spat in my face 'cause I dare to tackle 'em in football. Things like this. And I can't imagine in my school [00:24:00] coming out as gay, but I'm a bit older.

But still, I can't imagine coming out as gay would've been. Very well received. Maybe I'm making, maybe I'm mis, maybe my memory's bad, but I feel like with a lot of those rough people, it would've been bad. I think

Craig: We, I mean, we had, we had the same, we had the same at school. Um, or a real sort of culture of bullying that it'd been reported by the press as well, because people do have that, um, that sort of idea that, you know, Lindsay Academy, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

It's one of the nicest schools in that area, but it wasn't. It was a, there was a real, real problem with bullying. Um, and I, that's, I don't think that's got to do with, with different people from different classes. It was just, it was a pretty, pretty brutal place to be if you weren't, if you weren't in like a kind of social tier, I would say, which I luckily was, I think, and had I not been, then I think it [00:25:00] would've made a different story.

Niall: It's interesting 'cause Yeah, you're saying about Lindsay Academy has that reputation. So we were friends with people from Torrance, which is kind of in between, uh, places and closer to these beautiful mountains.

It is literally like a little village. Yeah. It's, it's beautiful,

Craig: gorgeous. Beautiful. That's another little American one, isn't it?

Beautiful.

Niall: beautiful. See, it just comes out. I don't even think about it. What would you say

Craig: in story? Beautiful. Beautiful. Beautiful.

Niall: Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful. Pure. Beautiful. Pure, beautiful. Pure dead bro.

Pure dead. Beautiful. Um. And so we were talking to Martin Capy, our friend, still friends with him to this day, and we learned about the bullying from their school, and it was Nick's level to ours. Theirs was more physical bullying. Ours was more name calling, like I don't really remember anyone getting in physical fights.

It was pretty rare. They would do things like get metal rulers and hit your shins with the, the, yeah. You do that as well. Yeah. I'd never, we'd never heard that we, we only learned about that when we were. Out of school. 'cause we befriended him kind of after school age, so we were kinda university and he was telling us they [00:26:00] would do things like grab a leg each and then pull you up

Craig: against the left. Oh. See that was all, that was always a, an old, an old wifey tale. Uh, that one, the, the. The have a lamppost one leg each and the

Niall: yeah. In the post. Yeah. Yeah. I'd never seen it, but that's what he said. The kinda stuff that they did. And I was like,

Craig: We did a level, we had a lot of, uh, you know, if you like, sort of bend down behind someone and then push them back and they fall for you. It's

Niall: just funny though. But that's as far as the

Craig: a physical, um, yeah. Others, there was, yeah. From the bullying point of view there, it wasn't, it wasn't that it wasn't physical.

Mm-hmm. But we had fights, all great fights out in the rugby field. 'cause we were, we, where, where,

Niall: we, our school, there's a difference.

They played rugby. We didn't play rugby at the school. That, that is a difference. Even though rugby is so violent. That's the tough sport. We didn't even, I don't even remember seeing a rugby ball. We never mean playing it. Yeah. That

Craig: you're right enough there it [00:27:00] so out, out in the rugby

Niall: Field as we were sticking our fingers up each other's arties. That's the

Craig: rugby in the cru mean then that's people, people always thought I play rugby at school. Like,

Niall: are you just

Craig: that 'cause you're gay? It's like,

Niall: Uh, no.

Craig: no. Did

Niall: really happen? Yeah, that, so anyone kinda wondering what we're laughing about? There's a, if you don't know, there's a myth, which we've just, it's not a myth. It's not a myth.

I've never played rugby as I just said that they would. Shove their fingers up

Craig: The other players, there's, there's, you know, at the end of the game there's always that kind of like, uh, the, the, if, if you were, I can't remember what way it was around if you're playing home or away anyway, the other team would make an arch and you'd walk under there, arch, and then hands would just come in, all sorts of things.

You probably wouldn't get away with it these days. Yeah. Um, but yeah, lot, lots of fights. When we weren't playing rugby, there was lots of fights in the, in the grass field. 'cause we lived was, the school was kind of in, [00:28:00] in the land of the Toby Jug, which was Lindsay's gang, and the hoots was kki. So the, and there is, there is a bit of overlap there.

A bit of a bit of gang warfare. Probably nothing like America's gang warfare, but it's uh, when you're

Niall: also,

Craig: that was like, whoa,

Niall: just laughing Lindsay against Kirk. It's not really like possible against

Craig: No,

Niall: ek is it? Where they're like, probably like literally tubing each other. But anyway, moving on from gang warfare in Glasgow, let's move to Vietnam.

So how did you end up in Vietnam then?

You've 

Craig: been here for seven years. years. Seven years. I came, Ooh, I, think similar to you, I, 

Niall: I 

Craig: planned to do six months, right? Yeah. Planned to do

Niall: Yeah. Everyone that's been here for a long time is 

all the 

same story. You never meet anyone that's like, I came here for 10 years. Yeah. No, but I've

Craig: Never met anyone who said that.

I came for six months

and

then, um, planned to do like Thailand, Cambodia Laos that kind of. Bit of Southeast Asia and then never left Vietnam. Yeah, right. [00:29:00] Did, finished 

my tefl, 

um, got a job teaching English. And that was, that was your kind of get 

in for, 

for 

the year. 

Mm-hmm. 

And, um, and that was seven years ago.

Niall: So what 

were 

your first thoughts 

when you landed? 

Craig: I'll never forget coming out that airport. It's. Hectic, everyone doing the same. Absolutely. And it is just, you get that blast of heat in your face. The too in the, everyone's waiting for their family with the signs and you're like, oh, I dunno where to go, what to do You want to do a u-turn and get back in the plane?

Um, that is, and then it was just hectic. It, it's so unlike any other place I've ever been. Um, the, the busyness, the smells, the lights, and then when you're walking down, boy Vien for the first time. Do you remember your first time?

Niall: Not specifically, but we, we did, uh, teacher training at the end of Boy vn, so we actually spent quite a lot of time during 

the

day 

Craig: and out, yeah, there.

Yeah. So [00:30:00] yeah. It's just seems sensory overload. Yeah, sensory overload. And I think that that happens still quite often, even like going on holiday or coming back and, but you see it from a different point of view. You're kinda like, huh, I'm home now. I 

I love that. 

Niall: Do 

you think it's addictive? Yeah. 

Craig: A hundred percent.

A hundred percent. I think, um, especially what I like is once you've been here for so long, you can negotiate and navigate all with ease. You feel a bit of, a bit of an expert, a bit of a guru in the subject. That'd be my mastermind,  mastermind subject is how to, how to navigate the Vietnamese roads.

Niall: So I think I've accepted over the last few years that I'm here as an expert.

Yeah. I'm never going to assimilate into the local population. And there's this thing you hear and people, and I, I've had this discussion before, this discussion of expat versus immigrant, to me, it's not a race [00:31:00] thing. It's very, very clear. An expat is somebody who leaves their hometown home country for a set amount of time and they intend to go back.

Even though I've been here 10 years, I still probably intend to go back. An immigrant is when you leave your hometown with no intention to go back home. Mm-hmm. You have literally immigrated. To another culture. Mm-hmm. So let's not get into that debate of expat versus immigrant. I still call myself an expat.

I'm not an immigrant. I've also come to terms with the fact that it is. Well, one, I don't speak the language, but even if I did, it would be almost impossible to assimilate into the local culture. It's just not my culture. Mm-hmm. I, I hang out with British people, people who look like me, people who are about the same age as me in my time here.

I've never once been invited to dinner by a Vietnamese family or Vietnamese friend, anything like that, apart from maybe a dinner, like come out for tent dinner or something like that. So for the last few years, I, it's weird. I have kind of like in my own little bubble here. Yeah. That I love it here. I love everything about it.

I appreciate that. It, I'm kind of in a bubble looking at it from [00:32:00] the outside in.

Craig: I mean, I, my boyfriend's Vietnamese, so

Niall: I 

have the opposite of that, I 

Craig: guess.

Well, that's what I was gonna ask you. And I think, um, so I, I, 

I do 

 do, do that part of the culture as well,

Niall: Um, which I love. Well, tell me more about that.

'cause I've just said I don't know anything about that side of it. So what is that like, assimilating 

Craig: in 

and

as a gay man as well? Yeah. Um, I mean, well he, he's an artist. He's an artist and very sort of, um. Accepting family and friend group who are all quite liberal and arty, so that's great. And they're from the north as well, and that's traditionally a bit more conservative.

Um, I know I've got a lot of, I've got a lot of gay friends and, uh, who, who have moved from the north to the south to be themselves. They feel they couldn't really be their authentic selves, um, at home in the north, so they come down south. So to have a family that's supportive, um, from the north is. I'm sure it's not unique, but it's very special.

It's very special and [00:33:00] yeah, we, we, we go out to, I think food is the big bringer together and I'm, I'm not fussy at all and I'm quite lucky for that. I. Because we can go, um, out and I go out with his Vietnamese friend group, whether, whether we're going to a house or whether we're going to like a, a restaurant or whether they're coming to mine.

And, um, just have nice food and drinks. And I think that's quite a universal thing, but it just so happens in Vietnam that sometimes that food is not for the Western palate. Um, gimme some examples. Oh. Um. Yeah,

Niall: I love it. Oh no, I like the 

al part, the manto part. You can keep that.

So 

for

the 

folks 

at,

Craig: explain what that means.

Means it is, uh, for a sort of gray, purple fermented shrimp fish sauce

Niall: that.

You lost 

Craig: me 

Gray 

Niall: I mean that [00:34:00] there's no food. Should be

Craig: purple. It is not the most appetizing color. But, um, the, it's pretty tonky, it's got to put it mildly. a good Scottish one Um, I, I, had, I remember honking, pure honking, pure honking, um, and you mix, you can mix that with some, like lime and sugar and chilies.

Um, but my boyfriend was the one who got me properly into that. Yeah, we'd have, we have it for lunch probably once a week. Wow. But, um, yeah,

Niall: What about the one that, the only thing I've really tried, I think that I re not regretted, but like I, I tried some intestine one time, which it's not like terrible. It's just rubber.

It's 

Craig: it 

Niall: literally, you're just chewing rubber. I was like, I don't want to

Craig: this I don't understand in my mouth. I think when you, when you think 

if

you didn't 

know it 

Niall: that there's that kind of like, I actually didn't know what it was. Okay. So I was at a school teaching and they were having a big, uh, I think we were having like a cooking competition.

So each group were doing a different dish and they're like, teacher, are you gonna come and try this? Tried a bit and as soon as I bit into it and, and then I [00:35:00] knew, I was like, and then I kinda thought about what it looked like and I was like, this is, this is intestine. Yeah. And I felt really bad 'cause it was a dish, but I had to,

Craig: I 

ate the broth a bit, but not, yeah, no, I, I love all the, all the organy bits.

The only thing that I probably wouldn't go near is the, I think it's called, I'm gonna mess up the pronunciation that the can, which is like the, the blood soup. Oh, okay. Of the. Whatever animal it comes from, but it's not like, you know, we've get black pudding in Scotland, which is dried and congealed and dark and peppery and tasty.

I think this is just like a, a bowl of blood maybe. Bits and top. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And it's, I think I'm,

Niall: I'm okay. Yeah. I've seen other dishes like, uh, on the best ever best ever food review show. It was like pig's ear in a salad. Um.

Craig: love it. 

I think that looks quite great. It's great if you, um,

Demi, have you been to Demi Brewing 

Long?

No, I've tried a beer, but not to the brewery. Uh, they do a great,

That's 

Niall: a 

great dish there. 

Craig: Oh, I need to [00:36:00] go back. 

there. So actually,

Niall: So what kept you in Vietnam then? We talked, I asked you, do you think it's addictive? The reason I asked that question is, ' cause you mentioned something I think is true for. I think it's true for a lot of Sese. I don't know about the whole country Vietnamese as well.

From what I've spoken to them and I, I'm be interested to hear your opinion and from what you know from your boyfriend, even though he's from the north. And I know for expats, the thing about Saigon, that's why I asked, is that addictive? You do need to leave sometimes I think. You need to get away, but then that's where that addictiveness comes in because you're like, I want to get back.

Or when you do get back, you're like, this is amazing. And the amount of people, I'm sure you're similar as well. The amount of expats over the years that I've met that have left and then come back because they just because they can't stay away.

Craig: Yeah. I mean there's even if, are you talking about like long-term leaving?

Niall: I've known some people to long-term leave, but I'm mostly talking about even for myself, some,

every few

months or every few weeks, you're like, I've gotta get out here. Like we are going be glamping this 

Craig: weekend 

just yeah. South. But I [00:37:00] know, 

Niall: yeah,

We, we are off to my knee, uh, for a couple of days. Yeah, you gotta get away to my knee or

Craig: or all that because it's, it can be so, so it is so busy and it can be so suffocating and hot and noisy and polluted, full of traffic that it is so important 'cause. If you, if you have a bad day at work and then get stuck in traffic on the way home, you get arrive home in a foul mood.

Yeah. And it's hard to come back from that. So I, yeah, really important to get away and especially just to the beach if I'm feeling homesick at

Niall: is 

my little, have 

Craig: space down that way. Yeah.

Niall: it's, but

Craig: We went, we did a, a wine tasting in and um, we thought. D wine's not our favorite. So we'll get the, the gold package, the exclusive package absolutely 

Niall: man. And does your boyfriend feel the same way? What does his family or friends or people, you know, even the Vietnamese people 

Craig: feel 

the 

same, that

they need to it out sometimes? I think so. [00:38:00] I mean, he's, um, he's been up in Hoan for a while. Quite, he's coming back tonight, I hope, I think. Um, yeah, he's been up in ho and it is exactly that thing.

You need to, you need to just get out to space, space, change of energy, change of scene. And johan's great for that as well. The minute you step out the old town into sort of Anne bang area. If I could get a job up there, I'd move there in a heartbeat. Oh. Because I, I've been to Hoan a million times, but I've always been in the.

Sort of like the, the tourist conveyor belt around the old town. I was like, oh, it's nice to see you once. But then the last time I was up a few weeks ago for a burn supper, uh, Hoan had their first burn supper. It was lovely. Uh, we stayed outside the city and it was just beautiful. Rice fields and buffalo and beaches.

It was gorgeous. So, and I'd never see, and I feel like I've wasted so many trips up there, 'cause I've just been

going rounds, like seeing the same [00:39:00] tourist tap with, uh, 

Niall: families

all 

wearing the same outfit, you know?

Yeah. Oh, Craig, this has been amazing. I'm glad we finally got to do this. Thank you so much for coming on Avid and podcast. What I wanna do is keep talking to Craig, but we're going to switch to just full Scottish. And if it works, we're gonna put it as a bonus episode that you can just listen to. But thank you for tuning into this episode.

Remember, leave a review, rate it and the best thing that you can do is share it with someone else who also loves Vietnam, who are thinking of visiting here or live here as well. That would really, really help. Thank you so much.

Craig: And Craig, thank you 

Niall: much. 

for being on. Thank you very much. Thank you.

Cheers.