Bridging Worlds: Identity, Legacy, and Coming Home | S14 E02 Annie Vo (Part 1)

"I think I grew up more sheltered. I didn't have the typical New York upbringing." - Annie Vo 

This episode was special in so many ways — not just because it marked six years of A Vietnam Podcast, but because of Annie’s story. Her journey from Saigon to Yale, and then full circle back to Vietnam, embodies what this podcast is all about: identity, resilience, and connection.

Hearing how Annie navigated culture shock, built a successful career, and now helps others feel seen and supported — that hit home. Her warmth and authenticity reminded me why I started this podcast. These are the conversations that matter. They’re real, honest, and grounded in experience. I feel lucky to have shared the mic with her on such a meaningful day.

Key Takeaways:
- Gossip Girl was based on her high school
- Learning English as a child immigrant
- Reverse culture shock moving back to Vietnam
- What was supposed to be a short stay became 8 years
- Her children are growing up bilingual and connected
 
Chapters and Time-stamps:
03:00 - Annie’s Background & Career Overview
04:00 - Gossip Girl & High School Life in NYC
07:00 - Immigrating to the U.S. at Age 5
13:00 - Learning English & Adjusting to American Life
20:00 - Returning to Vietnam & Reverse Culture Shock
28:00 - Why She Stayed in Vietnam
30:00 - Building a Life and Business in Saigon
33:00 - Family, Legacy, and Raising Kids Bilingually

This Season is sponsored by Premier Dental.

Discover the potential of a confident and healthy smile with the excellent dental clinic in Ho Chi Minh

Chapters

• 0:00 Annie Vo | S14 E2 (Part 1)
• 37:35 End of Pt.1

Transcript

Niall: [00:00:00] Your high school class is the basis for a very, very famous TV show, and you are actually the basis for one of those characters? Correct? 

Annie: My high school class of 2005 the Spence uh, school in New York is the basis for it. And one of the characters in it is an Asian girl.

Between sort of Where I was at home I was more Vietnamese and then, uh, outside I was more American, really. Um, I think New York is great. It's very diverse, so I never felt specifically sort of discriminated, um, against, um, as an Asian or as a Vietnamese. 

 To this day I think, I seek out those on the edges of social circles and 

Niall: trying to 

bring 

them 

in 

because I 

was 

once 

one 

of 

those.

Niall: Welcome to a Vietnam podcast with me, your host, Neil Mackay. I've now been hosting this podcast since 2019, and today is actually a really special day. Today is six years to the day, since the very first episode of a Vietnam podcast.

I.

Annie: Oh, wow. Congratulations. 

Niall: Thank

you very much. It was called a [00:01:00] Saigon podcast back then, the full name was 7 million Bikes, a Saigon podcast, and it is now simply a Vietnam podcast. We are in the top 5% of podcasts worldwide. We've interviewed over 200 people, hundreds of episodes, over 300 episodes. Uh, I now start the 7 million Bike Podcast, a podcast production agency.

We've worked with over 70 podcasts, help with millions of downloads, thousands of episodes, help podcasts get to the top of the charts, and absolutely none of this would've been possible without you listening to this, making it such a successful podcast. So thank you so much. But I do have to give a big, big special thank you to Louis Wright who composed the music for this podcast that still gets the most compliments today, way more than the actual podcast itself, but it's completely deserved.

 But more than that, Lewis taught me everything I know about microphones and audio and everything in the beginning, and even still to this day, helps me so much. So thank you so much to Lewis. But most of all, obviously if you listen to this podcast, you know that I talk about every episode, my wife, Adrie Lopez Mackay, [00:02:00] literally what you're listening to right now through all this equipment, through all this, uh, motivation through all this energy would not be possible without her support and love and everything she's done over the years to make this podcast possible.

So a massive, massive thank you to her. For making a Vietnam podcast and 7 million Bikes podcast possible. So we get into today's episode, I'm always really excited and I'm especially excited today. My guest today, she is Vietnamese American. She's the COO of Premier Dental who are the sponsors of Season 14 of Vietnam podcast and an unbelievable dental surgery. 

Uh, they're actually my dentist. I've been going there for a couple of years. Um, they're incredible at getting your wisdom teeth out. If you want to get your wisdom teeth out, it's fucking painful. But they are amazing. So I, I would recommend going to Premier Dental  and, and she is a lecturer. And she is a university lecturer and community builder.

So most people might know my guest today through the numerous networking events and lunches that she does all over Saigon, which I have been to many times and they [00:03:00] are incredible. So go check them out. So today we're gonna be talking about her life as uh, an immigrant in New York City, a Vietnamese immigrant in New York City, and what it was like to grow up there, then coming back to Vietnam and why she came back, and the linguistic and cultural challenges of operating a business in Vietnam.

My guest today is Annie Vo. Annie, thank you so much for joining me on a Vietnam podcast. But before we get started, I have actually something really exciting. Before we get started, I have something really interesting I need to ask you. Yes. So your college class was the basis for a very famous TV show, and you are actually the basis for a character in that TV show.

Is that correct? Yeah.

Annie: Uh, one correction. Yeah. My high school 

Niall: class,

let me redo that. I wrote down high school class and then I changed it to college. Hold on. Now if something very, very interesting to ask you, I'm really, really excited to ask you about this. Now, your high school class is the basis for a very, very famous TV show, and you are actually the basis for one of those characters, correct?

Annie: Correct. The inspiration, I 

Niall: guess.

Tell me 

about 

that.

Annie: So the, 

uh, TV show that we're talking about is Gossip Girls, uh, Serena Vander, um, oh, sorry. 

The 

TV show that we're talking about is Gossip Girls. And, um, my high school class of 2005, the Spence uh, school in New York is the basis for it. Um, and one of the characters in it is an Asian girl who got into Yale early.

 And uh, I think that's where the [00:04:00] similarity ends really with me and that character in the 

Niall: show 

though. So what did you think when you found this out? Like 

that's mental.

Annie: yeah, I was blown away. Actually, I didn't know before I started watching the series, but there were so, so many similarities with, uh, the show and my classmates.

Of course, some of the facts were, you know, switched around a bit and, um, embellished. But it, uh, was a little uncanny how it reflected, you know, our school 

life and my 

Niall: friends.

I'm thinking now, if my life was a, became a, was a, if there was a TV show based off of my life, what would it be? I want to hear from other people as well.

Let me know in the comments, whatever, wherever it is. If there was a TV show based on your life, what would it be? You wouldn't know. Still game is like a, a glaswegian comedy show based on two old guys. I feel like if that was maybe the closest to my life, maybe I'll show you that another time. Still game, but, so tell me, then you went to Yale, la how old were you when you went to Yale?

Are you one of these child 

Annie: prodigies?

No. [00:05:00] Normal college age. I went through, Um, 

finish high school at a normal age, and I started Yale 

Niall: 18.

And 

that's 

early.

I'm 

sorry.

And that's early. You said you started, the character got admitted 

to 

Annie: you 

early. early as an early action. Early action as in, um, instead of the normal regular admission cycle, you apply earlier on in the fall and you get your admissions decision, uh, around 

Niall: December.

Uh, and 

then, and the 

Annie: character 

was 

the 

exact same. Exact

same, 

Niall: yes. Exactly.

So you've never figured out who wrote the show, right? Oh, sorry. We obviously know who wrote the show. You've never figured out the connection between the show 

and 

your 

Annie: class?

No. So the show is based on a series of books and we know who the author is. But, um, I don't know the, the author's connection 

Niall: to, 

to 

my 

high 

school.

There's no obvious connection. It's not somebody's parent or 

a 

Annie: teacher or 

something 

like that.

I haven't investigated it, but no 

Niall: obvious 

connection 

that 

we 

know of.

Alright, we gotta look into 

that one. 

So, New York City. I've lived in New York City. I actually lived there from, for five months. From 2007 to 2008.

I lived in Brooklyn for a little bit. Uh, I lived in the Upper East Side, worked in 

Annie: PJ 

Clark, you know 

PJ 

Niall: Clarks. yeah. 

yeah.

Famous Burger [00:06:00] Joint, 

right? Yeah. It was famous 'cause a lot of famous people went there. And, uh, one of the famous people at the time was Johnny Depp. Everyone talked about Johnny Depp 

came 

in, never met him, never saw him.

And then, uh, I left and then I went back for one night to have a burger. 'cause I think you weren't allowed 

to eat there if 

you worked there. But I'd finished. I went back to have a burger, and of course they were like, oh, Johnny Depp was here last night. He was sitting right there. I was like, are you fucking kidding me?

The, the day I leave or the week I leave, Johnny Depp comes in. So that was pretty cool. But it's funny. So New York is a, a special place. It's unique, right? 

I I 

I, 

think it's, I. So I remember talking about being, doing this podcast for six years. First guest on here was JK Hobson, who was from New York. I remember asking him the question, 

at 

what age 

did 

you realize 

you were from New York?

'cause it is the center of the universe in a way. And if you're from New York, you think it's the center of the universe.  So what was your upbringing like 

in New 

York 

City? 

Where 

were 

you?

Annie:  Um, 

I started off in Greenwich Village, then the Lower East Side before 

it 

became hip. 

 Then the Upper East side, um, to be closer to my school, which I got to into on scholarship through this amazing, uh, program called Prep for Prep. So, um, maybe not a lot of people know this, but my family was not well off back then, and I, I actually could say that we were perhaps poor.

 Um, and we were also an, an immigrant family, um, trying to make our way through. Um, when I moved to the US at the age of five, I didn't go straight to New York City, but I lived with different relatives in Chicago and LA and then moved to New York in fourth grade. Um, 

but 

um, 

we were not well off. And so, um, we were also an immigrant family and.

 You 

know, I had to, um, really try to fit in, uh, especially moving to my high school, which was sort of another socioeconomic level. Um, I didn't have a lot, uh, in common with my, my classmates who were lovely people outside of the classroom. Um, and so I really mostly focus on, you know, my studies and, 

um, 

 um, I had great relationships with my, my, um, professors, but I, I blossomed academically.

Um, but, uh, 

I'm 

sorry. 

Okay. Can 

we 

take 

a 

pause?

Sure.

I 

don't know. 

Um, this is why I need to be prepared. Um, 

what 

did 

you 

want 

me 

Niall: to 

just 

say?

Share your story. Remember, it's all about your stories. It's just a conversation that you can't be prepared for this. It's, it's your life story. 

Like, it's Literally 

just 

say 

what 

don't you? That's why when you kept asking me about it, I was like, you can't really be prepared for this like this. This is, um, we just did an episode with RMIT and being 

over 

propelled 

is 

worth Yeah. 

Because they wanted to 

read 

off of 

a 

script. 

Mm-hmm. 

They 

wanted 

to 

make sure 

it was world perfect.

Yeah. And this isn't what Perfect. So let me ask you again. Yeah. And then just start again. Sure. Just tell me your story, uh, because I mean, if you listen to this podcast, we just share stories of people connected to Vietnam.

So like, we just did the episode with Anne, really interesting hearing about how dad ended up in Germany as with a scholarship, as a PhD, 

and 

then 

they 

followed him and 

things 

like that. 

So 

let's 

just 

scrap 

all of that and we'll go 

back 

to that.

Annie: Mm.

Niall: So tell me what it was like, uh, growing up in New 

York 

and 

Annie: how 

did 

your 

family 

end 

up 

there?

Uh, it's a sort of unique story. We weren't refugees. Um, 

we. 

 My mom majored in English, uh, back in Vietnam, and she worked as an interpreter, tr interpreter for 

um, 

international 

organization.

Sorry. No, it's 

alright. it's

not you.

I'm 

just 

gonna move this. Yeah. Slightly move it down. 

No, 

we need

to keep 

it 

closer. Oh, 

That's perfect.

Yes. 

Okay, good. Wait, 

wait. 

you're moving?

No, because so you can 

hear 

a 

little 

bit 

when 

Niall: like 

Annie: further 

away.

Yeah. 

Niall: Yeah. 

But 

now, 

it better.

Yeah. Yeah. It's 

Annie: better, 

Lemme 

Niall: just 

ask that again. Okay. So 

how 

did 

your 

family 

Annie: end 

up in 

New 

York?

Right. So it's a interesting story. We weren't, didn't come as refugees. [00:07:00] We, my mom worked as a translator for international organizations, um, an interpreter rather for international organizations in Vietnam.

And through those connections, she, uh, met an NYU law professor who was so impressed with her English. It was a different world back then. And, 

um. 

Uh, the professor offered her a scholarship to go study at NYU Law School. Now, the road from that offer to my mom coming to the US and starting her law studies was a, a long one, but I followed her as a dependent.

So we came on a plane. Um, my mom, during her

Niall: uh,

Annie: years at NYU Law School initially couldn't take care of me. So that's why I lived in Chicago and LA initially with relatives, and then I moved 

Niall: to 

New 

York 

in 

fourth 

grade 

with 

her.

Wow. So you, you were five years old when you moved from 

Annie: to America.

Niall: That's right.

Five 

and 

a half 

years 

old.

Wow. 

So 

what 

are your 

memories? 

Annie: What 

year was that?[00:08:00] 

Uh, I think that was 

Niall: early. 

That 

was in 

1992. So

what were your memories then, of Vietnam before you left? I know nobody really remembers much before five 

years 

Annie: but 

what, 

what 

do 

Niall: you 

remember?

Annie: Oh, I have 

actually 

a 

lot 

of 

memories 

from 

my time in Vietnam.

Yeah. And my family was still, um, poor, struggling a little bit. It was not too long after the war 

ended. 

Um, I remember living in a multi-generational household with my maternal grandparents. I remember, um, my grandfather, um, being half paralyzed, um, from going to sort of reeducation camp a few years after, and my grandmother taking care of him.

I remember my dad having a small OC dental chair, uh, on the first floor 

Niall: of 

our 

home 

Annie: on 

Ho Ho Hung street. Wow. 

And, um, I also remember my extended family, um, my great-grandmother on my maternal grandmother's 

side, 

 uh, visiting my great, uh, grandparents and my grandmother's siblings. Um, a lot of [00:09:00] our. We had a lot of extended family.

I remember how precious, um, certain things were, like just a small piece of chocolate or a small piece of cheese, um, or a little bit of ice cream. It was really precious. And even, um, you didn't get a ton of presents for, uh, for your birthday. Just a few. Um, but they were 

Niall: so 

 sort 

of 

valuable. 

Hmm. And 

were you 

based in Saigon?

Yes, 

Annie: I was.

And 

Niall: in 

Saigon?

Annie: Uh, right 

in 

district one. My family had a, a small house, um, on Hoho Hung Street, which is a small street near, really near Benton. Um, and it was bought, uh, by the family, sort 

Niall: of, 

uh, 

pooling money 

together.

What 

do 

you 

remember 

Saigon 

being 

like back then 

Annie: when 

you 

were younger?

 Um, Saigon more broadly speaking. I, 

I think 

Niall: I 

was 

too 

small 

 to 

Annie: remember 

that.

you 

mean your 

world 

Yeah. But, but it was, it was a different world. It was, [00:10:00] um, a slower pace of life, more peaceful, um,

Niall: um. Um,

Annie: a lot more bicycles. Um, cars were rare. Um, I remember taking the sit low 

to 

get 

to 

and fro within 

the city 

Niall: Wow.

my grandmother. 

Yeah. So 

I 

would 

be 

sitting 

on, you 

know, 

someone's 

lap.

One 

of 

the things that 

I laugh about and it frustrates me is, uh, 

if 

you've 

seen 

the sea clues going about the city 

these days.

Yes. Your 

face 

just 

Annie: sums 

up. 

Why 

did 

you make 

that 

face? 

Well, um, 

they're 

always carrying tourists, 

Niall: like Yeah.

And 

it's 

not a 

mode of 

transportation 

anymore.

No. What 

what makes 

me laugh 

is 

they're basically driving through traffic.

Annie: Yeah. Yeah.

Niall: It's like you see these tourists in the back of these sea clothes and it's generally kind of older men and it's good.

They, they got a job and they, they, that's fine. They're giving them employment. There's nothing about that. But it's very inauthentic for one 'cause. Uh, when 

do 

you think 

ccls 

stop being 

used as a 

motor 

of 

transportation in 

Annie: Saigon? One 

Niall: Wow.

Annie: before 

Niall: I 

move back 

here. 

Um, 

seven, 

eight years 

ago.

Yeah. I mean, I mean, I've been here nearly 10 [00:11:00] years.

I've never seen nobody You don't get grab ccl. That's right. You know what I mean? So I, I always just laugh and I see these tourists getting on the back of a sea l and they're normally in a tour of like tour group of about 10 in a row, and they'll be going down like wan or m and it's just traffic. And I'm like, you're just breathing in pollution right now and you're going by office buildings.

It's not anything exciting. And have you seen these old, really old pictures and maybe in Vietnam? 

I think it was, 

I saw them 

in the, maybe Burma in African country 

where 

expats white people used to get picked up on the back of people, like, and 

locals and 

Annie: be 

carry 

Niall: literally 

on their backs.

Maybe. I've seen a 

photo 

or 

two.

Yeah. I, I can't imagine if that was a tourist thing. Imagine if the tourist showed up and they're like, okay, can you carry me on your back? Like, we don't do that. So 

the sea clothes, 

they always make 

me laugh. 

The one that, 

um.

Annie: um,

Niall: It's interesting 

you're saying about 

ice 

cream 

and 

things like 

this. 

Do, do you 

Annie: you remember 

having 

Niall: first Coca-Cola?

I 

don't,

no. The reason I ask is yet, we [00:12:00] recently had the, you know, 50 years of reunification in Vietnam and we saw this news report online, I think it was NBC or something like that in America. And this woman was interviewing, uh, an older Vietnamese man, uh, who'd been healed during the war. And you know, it's obviously western centric from America.

And you know, the end of the war here, it's very different. It's kind of not the end of the war. It's 

a reunification 

of 

the north 

and south when America, it's 

very different. 

But anyway, in this report she handed him a Coca-Cola. He took it, the report continued, but the voiceover 

said, 

this 

is his 

first Coca-Cola in 40 

years. 

Annie: Well,

Niall: I 

was like, what? Well, couple of questions. Why? 

So he had Coca-Cola 10 years after 

the world and four years after 

Revo. 

Also Coca-Cola is widely available, available 

in Vietnam. 

And it has been for, well, I 

mean 

I've 

been 

here 

10 

years. 

 When 

did Coke 

start 

becoming available 

in 

Vietnam

Annie: before 

Niall: I 

can 

remember.

Yeah.

right. Like it's been available forever. She was just a very funny news report. I thought it was so condescending to be like, this man is not a [00:13:00] Coca-Cola. 

40 

years, 

and 

she hands 

him 

a Vietnamese can 

of 

Coca-Cola. That's 

like, 

Annie: they 

Niall: sell that out the 

front 

of 

his, 

the 

front 

of 

his shop. Right, 

Right, 

So then you left Vietnam, uh, when you're 

five 

years 

old. 

What 

Annie: was 

it 

like then 

getting to 

America? Was it 

just 

crazy?

It was actually, um, a bit of a lonely experience. I was leaving everything that I was familiar with here in Vietnam. Um, family, um, grandparents, relatives, language culture, um, moving to a different country, different language, different family.

Even. As I said, I was living with uncles and aunts in Chicago than another, um, different uncles and aunts in la so, um, the readjustment was a little bit rough, but oddly enough, I only have 

sort 

of 

snippets 

of. 

Um, memories before I knew English. So like first day of school, my, my aunt just drops me off with my cousins and I 

don't know where 

to go.

Um, being a little bewildered and [00:14:00] not being able to even ask where the restroom is. Um, so difficulties like that. But then it seemed like 

Niall: within 

a 

few 

weeks, 

um, 

I 

had 

sort 

of 

picked 

up 

the 

language

that it always blows me away. 

I 

think 

that's 

incredible. 

I'm 

just remembering 

when 

I 

was 

five years 

old, 

I 

changed 

primary school and it was terrifying.

I spoke the language. I could ask where the toilet 

is. 

How 

do 

Annie: you, 

I 

don't 

understand 

how 

you 

cope 

with 

that, 

I 

guess '

cause 

you 

have 

to.

Yeah, I think, I think it's sort of what made part of what, uh, makes me who I am today. Uh, being able to reach out to people, um, adjust to new environments and just be friendly.

Um, and to this day I think I, seek out those on the edges of social circles and 

Niall: trying to 

bring 

them 

in 

because I 

was, 

um, 

once 

one 

of 

those.

Wow. 

Well, 

well 

done. 

Annie: So 

Niall: at 

what age 

you 

moved to 

New 

York 

when 

you 

were 

in ninth 

grade?

Uh, nine years. Sorry, nine years old, fourth grade, nine years old. Uh, and you were in 

the Lower East 

side 

before 

it 

was hip.

And so what 

was 

that like back 

then? 'cause 

New 

[00:15:00] York, 

I think now it's much, it's gentrified like everywhere 

else. 

Right. 

But 

New York had 

a rough reputation 

back, 

back 

in 

the 

day.

And what the nice areas would be like Fifth Avenue, 

the 

Upper 

East Side, the 

Annie: Upper 

West 

Side, 

things 

like 

this, 

but 

Lower 

East 

Side.

What 

was 

that 

like?

Yeah, so we started off in Greenwich Village, which was already somewhat gentrified with NYU owning a lot of the buildings down there. 

 But, 

um, 

lower East Side was a, was rougher. Um, I think I grew up more sheltered. I didn't, I didn't have the, um, typical New York, uh, upbringing. I think, um, I would sort of.

Base mostly at home and, and school and things like that. But you learn to be street smart. 

Niall: Um, 

you 

Annie: to look 

purposeful 

when 

you're 

walking down the 

street. Is 

that 

a 

New 

York 

thing?

Niall: Yeah, 

for 

sure. 

Annie: And then you 

learn 

different 

Niall: self-defense 

tricks, 

like 

holding 

Annie: your 

keys. 

Oh, really? Yeah. 

And then, 

you know, 

it 

was that 

rough? 

was 

that 

bad.

I mean, 

I, I 

think 

it 

was just a precaution. 

Um, [00:16:00] nothing 

ever happened to me, thankfully. 

Yeah. But, 

Niall: uh, 

you, 

you 

learn 

to 

become 

street 

smart 

in 

New York 

Wow. Just sure 

things 

don't happen.

So what, what would be the opposite, right? You're walking down the street and you don't look purposeful.

You're 

kind 

of 

like 

daydreaming. Like 

Annie: what? 

Someone's 

gonna just 

rub 

you or 

pass you, or, 

Niall: or,

um, 

well 

first 

you 

might 

Annie: annoy 

New 

Yorkers 

walking 

behind 

you,

Niall: That's a 

Annie: you stereotype, 

right?

No, I mean, I think it's true. Uh, I, there are lanes even in the sidewalks. Okay. Stay in your lane 

so that 

someone can 

bypass You 

should, 

Niall: they 

will need 

to, 

Annie: but.

Niall: Um,

I'm 

Annie: I'm just 

thinking, 

what's 

that 

famous 

movie? 

He's like 

I'm 

walking 

here. I'm walking 

here, 

Niall: I'm walking here.

Annie: Uh, yeah, I don't know which movie that is, but, uh, it is true. Um, from the New Yorker's perspective, um, looking, not looking per purposeful 

Niall: sort 

of 

ling might 

get 

you 

noticed 

by 

the 

wrong 

folks, 

I 

think. Um,

so 

then 

being this 

young 

Vietnamese American, 

at what 

[00:17:00] point 

did 

you 

say 

to yourself, 

I'm 

not Vietnamese, 

I'm 

Vietnamese American.

'cause 

you 

were 

born here, 

spoke Vietnamese 

growing 

up, 

then 

learned 

English. 

Annie: Was 

there a 

point 

in 

your 

head you 

were 

like, I'm 

Vietnamese 

American?

No, I 

think 

I was too young when I came over 

to 

really reflect on that spec 

specifically, 

 I always felt like I was both and, um, maybe it was more bifurcated. Um.

Between sort of where I was at home, I was more Vietnamese and then, uh, outside I was more American, really. Um, I think New York is great. It's very diverse, so I never felt specifically sort of discriminated, um, against, um, as an Asian or as a Vietnamese. Um, it was just in the context of my school, it, it wasn't super diverse.

Um, 

especially so 

socioeconomically 

in 

addition to, 

um, 

ethnically,

Niall: Hmm.

Annie: uh, but I think [00:18:00] I've always, as far as I can remember, mostly viewed myself just as 

Niall: Vietnamese 

American 

and 

back 

in Vietnam. I just sort of 

didn't 

think 

of in 

those 

terms.

Annie: What 

was it 

like 

then the 

first 

time 

you 

came 

back to 

Vietnam?

The first 

time 

I came back 

to 

Vietnam, 

um, 

that was in 10th 

grade.

That was, uh, 

actually. 

I left when I was five. I came back the year after, a year or two after for one visit. But then after that, it was a year, a period of four or five years that I didn't return 

to Vietnam, 

uh, because of 

my family 

financial situation. 

Um, 

my dad 

had come to the US for a few years, but he had to leave, um, when I was in fifth grade to come back.

His visa had expired and, um, he needed to be back here, uh, professionally and, and otherwise. So I came back in 10th grade and that was a momentous sort of occasion for myself personally, for my family. Seeing my dad again after a few years. Of course, we had kept in touch, but it wasn't the [00:19:00] same. And, um, it was reconnecting with him and, um, reconnecting with my birthplace, going back to Fang Grand to visit my, my paternal grandparents.

Niall: Um, 

uh, 

yeah, it 

was a, 

a 

sort 

of 

homecoming.

Was it 

Annie: a 

reverse 

culture 

shock or, 

or just 

a culture 

shock 

coming 

back 

after 

being 

in 

the States?

Uh, 

not on that trip because I stayed within the bosom of my family, but, uh, coming back eight years ago, almost now, there was a reverse culture shock. Um, despite being relatively fluent conversationally in Vietnamese or so, I thought, and relatively connected to my family, my grandmother, um, and the Vietnamese community over there and the Vietnamese students Association in college that did not prepare me for coming back here, especially sort of living and managing a business.

So, um, I had become very Americanized or, um, or so I, I realized And 

um,

Niall: so 

should 

I 

share some things about maybe 

managing 

the 

business 

here 

or,

well, I've 

got 

I've 

got a 

question.

Yeah.

Well 

the perfect, 

so 

you came back 

eight 

[00:20:00] years ago, 

um, 

and 

you had reverse culture shock. Explain a little bit about what was that reverse culture shock? Did 

you 

feel 

like you were 

coming back 

a 

completely 

different 

Annie: person to 

who 

you'd 

been 

before?

You mentioned 

now 

being 

Americanized.

it 

had been such a long time. I mean, I felt, um, I felt, I thought I was Vietnamese American and half and half, but came, coming back. I felt more American than Vietnamese. And so, um, one was 

the, 

uh, 

linguistic, um, 

language 

barrier. 

 I 

had never taken any courses 

in 

Vietnamese.

I only had conversations at home in Vietnamese and with my grandmother in Vietnamese. So, um, I really had to, to work on that 

and 

sort of 

jump in the deep end, um, in terms of, of language and conversing and um, uh, picking up the language, you know, 

in terms 

of typing. So, 

um. 

You know, I came back here and had to manage a, a family business and, um, I tried, I tried to 

type, because my, 

a lot of my staff don't know English, especially the [00:21:00] back office staff.

And I would sort of type in Vietnamese, but without the accents. And I would sit there and wait and wonder what is going on? Why is it taking 15, 

20 

minutes for my staff to answer 

a 

simple question 

later on? And I think like five, six months later, I discovered that they were trying to decipher what I was writing.

Niall: So, 

um, 

you 

know, 

that's, 

that's 

sort of 

when I 

put 

Annie: accents back

in and Yeah. The accents. 

Niall: You 

you're just writing go essentially, right? Yeah. 

Especially 

with 

my, 

my 

spelling 

mistakes I 

actually 

have a, a, really 

I important 

question. I've never, 

I've never known 

the answer 

to this. 

Right. So 

you're talking about typing,

 so 

we know that each. Uh, letter 

could 

have 

about 

eight different 

diuretics up, 

down, squiggles, 

hats, all 

of this.

Mm-hmm.

But the keyboards that all Vietnamese 

people 

use, 

from 

what 

I can see, the keyboards are quirk keyboards. 

Right. They're 

all, they're all, 

in 

Roman 

Roman 

numerals. 

Alphabet.

Alphabet. Right. 

Roman 

alphabet, 

not 

[00:22:00] numerals. Roman 

Annie: alphabet. 

How 

do 

you type 

in 

a 

Roman 

alphabet 

computer 

in 

Vietnamese?

Um, so 

good question. You 

have to download the Vietnamese, 

Niall: um, 

keyboard. 

The, the, 

Annie: right, 

right. 

You 

can, 

you 

can, um,

did 

not 

even 

know 

that. 

Right. 

So 

you 

have 

to 

download 

that.

Right. I mean, but it still looks 

like 

a 

cordi, 

a normal English keyboard.

Yeah. Except 

that if 

you, 

uh, 

press 

on a, 

on 

a letter 

a 

couple of 

times 

and it'll 

give 

you 

different 

options. 

Right. 

Yeah. And then if you start typing 

a word, it will suggest that word as well in Vietnamese. So on, on the phone, on the keyboard. On the phone. I think you, um, you tap on 

Niall: a 

letter multiple 

times 

to 

have 

the 

different 

accents.

that dia critics show 

up 

and 

then 

you can, 

yeah.

So 

we have, I fucking sound like an idiot here. We have 26 letters in 

the 

alphabet, right? I think so. Right. Okay. Got that one 

right. I was a 

bit 

unclear there. 

 26 

letters 

in 

the alphabet. 

But 

each, 

not 

each 

vow, 

I 

guess a 

EI, 

Annie: view mm-hmm.

can 

be, 

have 

the 

hats 

and di 

different 

diet critics. You 

[00:23:00] don't 

have 

diet critics on 

continent, 

right?

No. You don't have, um, so each of those letters, if it has a squiggly line on the n like the O or the U, 

Niall: it 

becomes 

an, 

O or o an 

O. Um, 

those 

are 

considered 

different 

letters. Yeah.

So my point is we have 26 letters in the Roman alphabet. Mm-hmm. But then you suddenly add 

all these 

day critics, then it extends 

it to 

how 

Annie: many, 

like Aku keyboard 

goes 

from 

26 

Niall: to.

50 60? No, 

it it is still 

the 

normal 

cord keyboard.

But I mean conceptually.

yes, 

yes. 

yes. Like you have to learn now that each key has six different meanings, or not each key, but some keys have six different meanings. So if you wanna 

Annie: write, 

Niall: uh, 

like 

Nam 

is 

the one 

I always use the 

example 

of like, 

Nam 

has 

seven different meanings. Like man five

E Right.

So 

if 

you 

wanna write 

Annie: man, 

Niall: which 

is nam backwards, you 

need 

to 

know 

Annie: exactly 

what 

keys 

to 

use.

That's 

right. 

That's right. You have to relearn 

the 

keyboard 

and 

it 

way 

harder.

Niall: It's 

easier 

than 

you 

think. 

Is it really? 

Annie: try and then, and [00:24:00] then 

Niall: Then you 

get 

the kn of 

it. 

Yeah. 

It's 

like going to 

type,

But 

Annie: But 

you have 

to 

learn 

Niall: to 

type 

in 

a 

different 

language 

essentially.

That's 

right. 

What 

do 

people 

in 

Thailand 

do? '

cause 

they 

have 

a completely 

different script. 

What, what people do they use and we need to figure that one out. 'cause I went to Thailand. 

So 

Annie: you 

came 

back 

to 

Vietnam, 

um, 

eight 

years 

ago. 

What made 

you then 

leave 

America 

come 

back 

to 

Vietnam? 

Uh,

so initially Vietnam was supposed to be a, a sort of a long layover on our way, on my family's way to Australia because my husband is Vietnamese Australian, born 

and raised.

And 

we 

got married 

and 

I 

had 

kidnapped him 

and 

brought him 

to 

New 

York. 

And we 

had 

been 

there 

together 

Niall: for 

four 

years.

Where Did you meet?

We 

met in 

Annie: Australia 

on 

summer 

Niall: vacation. Wow, beautiful. On summer vacation, 

yes. 

Oh, 

beautiful 

It's like Greece. Some are 11. 

Do you 

know 

that movie? 

Yes. 

Yeah. Okay. Just to 

Annie: make 

sure 

that 

you've 

got 

my 

reference there. 

No, 

that's 

Niall: You 

met on holiday. 

Do 

you 

think, 

um, 

you 

know, 

watching that show, love is Blind, 

you 

watch Love 

is 

Blind.

It's awful. 

It's terrible terrible storm, 

I have 

to 

[00:25:00] admit

But what 

I've noticed, 

right, even when they are, they can't see each other. It kind of, people are attracted to, and I don't mean this to be racist, their own race. You know, people, and even in Vietnamese, Vietnamese people like you and your husband meet each other on the other side of the world.

I. Uh, 

black 

people 

meet black people, 

Scottish people meet Scottish people. We, 

we 

seem 

to, even 

if 

we put this lovers blind, 

we put, 

well, it's 

meant 

to 

be blind. 

We 

still 

end up 

attracting 

to 

Annie: like, 

meet to like, 

I 

guess 

in 

a way, 

have 

you 

noticed that 

within 

the Vietnamese 

diaspora 

around 

the world?

That's 

a 

big question. I have not done a sociological study, but, um, in general, I think that, um, a lot of Vietnamese people do maybe tend to end up together, or Asians in general. I don't wanna make any, uh, you know, um, generalizations really, I can't speak to it, but for me personally, I actually thought I would end up with someone not Vietnamese or perhaps even not Asian because of just where I was.

[00:26:00] Um, and the environment in which I was. And also being a Christian, uh, not Catholic than 

l there were 

very few, um, Vietnamese young adults my age who were of the same faith, um, kind of similarly situated where I was growing up and where I was going to school. 

Niall: So 

that's why I thought I 

would, I 

always thought 

I 

would 

end 

up 

with.

You 

know, 

um, 

a 

non 

Vietnamese 

Annie: American.

And 

how 

did 

your 

family 

feel 

then 

when 

you met 

a 

Vietnamese 

Australian? 

Was 

it? Oh, he Australian. 

or, no. 

But the 

happy he Vietnamese.

Yes. I think, 

I 

think 

at 

the 

end 

of 

the 

day, they 

were happy, especially my dad. Um, maybe he was more, yes, especially my dad, um, because I think 

if I had 

not, he would've lost his connection with my family, and especially with my 

kids.

Um, and so marrying a Vietnamese who was equally or perhaps more so connected to the Vietnamese 

language 

and values, 

Niall: um, as 

I, 

uh, 

was, 

um, 

[00:27:00] extremely 

beneficial in, 

um, 

raising 

our 

kids 

With the same 

values.

And I was gonna say, so culturally, 

do 

you 

think it's, 

it's 

more 

beneficial, 

but 

I 

guess 

you 

just 

Annie: answered 

that 

question.

So 

you kidnapped 

him 

to 

America. 

What 

did he think 

of 

America 

as 

an 

Australian?

I think he appreciated, um, you know, New York for what it offered. Uh, but 

I 

think he 

prefers 

Niall: the 

pace 

and 

sort 

of 

way 

of 

life 

in 

Australia 

Annie: more

very 

different.

Very, 

very 

different.

And 

then how 

did 

you 

convince 

him 

then 

to 

move to 

Vietnam, 

which is 

even 

more different?

Well, um, 

I think that was a joint decision, really, uh, fully a joint decision. I, we, or we, I was pregnant with our second daughter and, uh, my parents were here and so I just wanted their, um, 

Niall: their, 

maybe 

them 

to 

be 

around, 

um, 

for the 

birth 

of our second 

child 

Annie: and 

their assistance also after at least my mom's.

Hands dad.

Um, but then there was also, [00:28:00] remember the period of separation I had with my dad when I was younger, which was not insubstantial. Um, and so I wanted a significant period of time, um, with him, 

uh, close 

to him as well. But we thought it would be maybe a year, a year and a half. And then, um, we would move to Australia where my husband was based is uh, was based, 

Niall: but 

that extended 

to, 

to 

eight 

for 

a 

lot of 

reasons.

Um, 

I 

mean, 

life 

here 

was 

just 

turned 

out 

to 

be 

so 

great.

I love it because we've 

had 

this conversation just recently 

comes up a 

lot. 

I don't 

know anybody who moved here intentionally for the long term, even yourself as Vietnamese. It's just, we are the same.

We came here for six weeks, nine years later, we're still here. You came here for a year. And then, 

so 

Annie: what 

is 

it 

about 

Saigon 

and 

about Vietnam 

that just draws 

people 

here 

and 

we just 

love 

it 

and 

we stay 

and 

we're 

like, 

yeah, 

we're 

not 

leaving.

So I've got, you know, there are the, um, reasons that are generally applicable and then there are the reasons that, 

you know, for me 

personally, um, are [00:29:00] makes Vietnam 

more meaningful, very meaningful.

Niall: Uh, 

Annie: For 

me personally, it was my family, my relatives,

Niall: um,

Annie: and the family business. So my husband is a dentist Vietnamese Australian dentist, and he joined the practice as a dentist and he, my dad gradually handed over the reins to him and myself together as a unit to manage the business as my dad goes into retirement.

Um, and so that, that's been super rewarding. Um, managing, um, a dental clinic business, the employees, the impact that we have on the culture and the, the, the care that we give, um, the patients. Kind of expanding on my dad, uh, continuing my dad's legacy and expanding on it and making it sort of more international.

Um, professionally it's been really rewarding, especially for my husband. 

Um, 

having my kids grow up with my, uh, close to my parents. Really great, especially since I, um, for periods of my life, um, when I was younger, I grew up far away from them. [00:30:00] Um, 

so. 

Niall: Allowing 

my 

kids 

to 

have 

that 

relationship 

with 

their 

grandparents 

and 

how 

much 

my, 

Annie: my, 

my 

parents 

love 

them is 

amazing.

I 

mean, 

they 

do 

spoil 

them 

a bit. 

Uh, 

Niall: that's, that's 

Annie: the 

job 

of 

a 

grandparent 

is 

to 

spoil 

their grandkids, 

right?

Yeah. 

My mom 

was a 

bit strict 

grow, uh, strict 

when 

I 

Niall: with you, but not the, not the, 

Annie: Yeah. 

And the kids would 

maybe 

be 

Niall: throwing 

a 

bit 

of 

a 

tent tantrum 

Annie: and 

my 

mom 

would be 

like, 

oh, 

that's 

so cute. 

And I was like, who is this person?

Niall: Right.

Annie: All Right.

Um. 

So 

having that relationship is great. And then also allowing my kids to grow up as bilingual, um, kids. Uh, if they had grown up in the US or Australia, I think they would, their Vietnamese would be at a very, very basic level, if anything at all. Um, so that's been important for us.

And then overall, Vietnam is just so vibrant and dynamic. It's growing. I think the middle class is growing. The business opportunities, um, are also [00:31:00] here. If you have the requisite experience and credentials and skills and do the hard work. Of course, I think the opportunities are there and the, um, threshold barriers are lower as well.

Um, I've had opportunities to do things here that I wouldn't have had, uh, to do elsewhere. Uh, one, one concrete example is my, um, my teaching, uh, position lecturing, um, as a lecture 

at 

Kaiser University, Vietnam. 

They 

approached me just because I had a JD from the us and in order to teach a a topic at Kaiser University, um, Vietnam International Center, you have to have a master's or above in the area that you're teaching.

So I'm teaching business law to college students, Vietnamese college students, but at, um, a US based institution. So in English, um, they approached me and I was not looking to teach. I didn't think I would teach. I, um, hadn't even really thought about it, but it's such a great, I, um, when the opportunity came my way, I thought about it and I [00:32:00] thought there, um, what a great way to share some 

Niall: of my 

experience 

with 

Vietnamese 

students 

here.

And 

so 

that opened 

a 

door 

for 

me 

that 

I 

don't 

think 

would've 

ever 

happened 

in 

the 

us.

Amazing. One of the things 

Annie: about Premier 

Niall: Dental, 

sorry, 

let me rephrase 

that question.

Annie: So

your husband 

is 

a 

dentist 

as 

well, 

and 

your 

dad 

is 

a 

dentist. 

Correct. 

So 

would 

you 

agree 

then 

that 

women 

marry 

their 

dad?

It happened 

to be 

the 

case 

for me, 

perhaps, 

but 

I 

ha But to 

be fair, 

I 

did not 

know he 

was 

a 

dentist 

when I first 

met him. Yes. My, my uncle told him he was a 

Niall: maxie in 

Vietnam. 

You 

use 

that 

term 

for 

doctors, 

medical 

professionals, 

doctors 

and 

Annie: dentists. 

So 

I 

was 

like, okay. 

Xi no, uh, ticks a 

box He only said that as 

like, 

he's a 

doctor, like 

number 

one.

Niall: Yeah. 

Um, 

but I 

didn't 

know 

he 

was 

a 

dentist, 

so 

I 

wasn't 

sort 

of 

looking 

Annie: to marry, you 

Niall: you know, 

a 

dentist 

as 

[00:33:00] well. 

But, 

um, 

you 

know, 

that state would 

have 

a, I think it, it's one just, it's a complete, uh, anecdotal story. 

I 

think it's 

funny 

though. It 

does, 

it 

does seem to 

happen a lot. I think I see with, uh, myself and Arie's dad, uh, I can see a lot 

of similarities. and I like it.

I'm like, yeah, I want to be like a dad or dad. Fucking awesome. So, uh, I think it's something that. It's probably completely anecdotal. There's no, I haven't done a sociological study on it either, but, uh, I just think it's funny, it's interesting that, uh, we, we, I think people, again, we find like attracts like almost, 

but then 

there's also 

that 

other 

thing 

that 

opposites attract as 

well.

Thank you so much. This has been incredible talking to you and really, really enjoyed it. Finally, I get to put you on the spot 'cause you'll do all these amazing events and networking events.

You really do help bring people together in Saigon. So it's amazing bringing the Vietnamese community together as well. You do a lunch every Tuesday. The Vietnamese overseas lunch, which I went to recently, I was the token white guy. Uh, Annie sent me a message on Facebook. She's like, you gonna come to the event?

I was like, well, I'm not Vietnamese and I'm not overseas Vietnamese either, [00:34:00] but she's like, please come along. So, uh, I call myself token. The token white guy, but you know, it was amazing. And, uh, your networking events on Thursday are brilliant as well. I've actually managed to get clients for my business through that as well, so it's really, really incredible.

Premier Dental is, honestly, it is amazing. I'm not just saying this because I have been there, I've been going for years. Uh, you've reminded me I need to come and get my teeth cleaned soon, actually, as well. But thank you so much. You are also the sponsor of SE season 14 of a Vietnam podcast, so we really appreciate that as well.

So make sure you go check out Premier Dental, whether you're overseas, 

Annie: thinking of 

coming into Vietnam for 

Niall: tourism. I can completely, um, vouch for 'em. They are incredible. And if you're living in Vietnam, you're looking for a dental. If you're living in Vietnam and you're looking for a dentist and go check out Premier Dental 

as well.

thank you 

Neil.

You are very welcome, Annie. Thank you for joining me on a Vietnam podcast. Thank you for listening on this special episode, six years today since the very first episode of a Vietnam podcast. Recorded in my bedroom on a tiny little [00:35:00] microphone, one piece of equipment now you can't even see, but we have equipment all around us.

Hopefully you can hear the difference as well. So don't forget, please share this episode with somebody else who is passionate about Vietnam, whether they live here or not. Um, rate, review, subscribe, follow all of that stuff. Remember, we are on YouTube now, so if you are watching on YouTube, thank you so much.

Or if you wanna see what me and Annie look like in your listening, then go to YouTube and go check it out. So thank you so, so much for being 

Annie: a member, for 

Niall: listening to 7 million Bikes of Vietnam podcast. Wait, let me redo that. So thank you so much for listening to this episode of a Vietnam podcast, and I hope you listen to many many more in the future. Annie, thank you so, 

so much.

Thank you, bill. I'm 

honored.

You're welcome. Cheers.

End of Pt.1