On this episode of Change Makers, we are doing a mid-year update on the Monarch. Hear where it is in the pipeline, and what’s next. We check in with the eBRF process, and what's instore in the coming months. After that, hear about an organization whose goal is to get technology into the hands of children in rural areas around the country.
On this Podcast (In Order of Appearance)
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On this episode of Change Makers, we are doing a mid-year update on the Monarch. Hear where it is in the pipeline, and what’s next. We check in with the eBRF process, and what's instore in the coming months. After that, hear about an organization whose goal is to get technology into the hands of children in rural areas around the country.
On this Podcast (In Order of Appearance)
Additional Links
Welcome to Change Makers , a podcast from APH. We're talking to people from around the world who are creating positive change in the lives of people who are blind or have low vision. Here's your host.
Sara Brown:Hello and welcome to Change Makers. I'm APH's Public Relations Manager, Sara Brown . And today we are doing a mid-year update on the Monarch. Hear, what's in the pipeline, and what's next for this awesome device. Plus, we check in with the eBRF process. We've detailed it a few times on previous podcasts and after that here about an organization whose goal is to get technology into the hands of children in rural areas around the country. Up first I'm talking to a's head of Global Innovation, Greg Stilson . Hello, Greg, and welcome to Change Makers.
Greg Stilson:Thanks so much for having me, Sara.
Sara Brown:Alright , so off the top, you've been on this podcast plenty of times before and you're always talking about The Monarch, but for those who don't know or have missed all those lovely episodes that you've graced our presence, can you tell us what you do here at APH for just those who don't know?
Greg Stilson:Sure. Yeah. S o I lead the Global Technology Innovation team. U h, we are a team that's made up of software engineers, product managers, and quality assurance, uh, analysts. Our goal is really to be looking at the future of technology, kind of making connections with a lot of the mainstream o r assistive technology partners, uh, and really identifying problems primarily in the classroom, but really for people at all stages of blindness, um, and to identify, you know, some solutions for those problems, whether it be, um, an app or a hardware device or something like that. So, um, I've been in the technology space for the better part of 18 years, um, and I joined APH in 2020.
Sara Brown:And again, if , if you have not been listening to Change Makers over the course of the past year, one of the topics we, we were, we routinely touch back on is the Monarch and the development of the Monarch, which is a multi-line, braille, tactile device, that has obviously multi-line braille and tactile graphics. Um, talk about the role that you're playing in the development of the Monarch.
Greg Stilson:So this is a joint partnership between HumanWare and APH. We are sort of equal investors in this project. Um, and so I, on the APH side, I lead that project , uh, alongside sort of my co-product manager , uh, Andrew Flatres, a from HumanWare. Um , we both sort of work with our respective teams and sort of come together on decisions and specifications and things like that we're leading this project, but honestly, like this is , th this project is, is a group effort from, you know, a lot of the, the subject matter experts that we work with here at hu at APH and HumanWare , uh, along with a lot of the, the software engineers , uh, at HumanWare. Um, and, and they , uh, of course are partners at the National Federation of the Blind, who are also providing feedback and, and , um, helping us with advocacy efforts and things like that. So we're leading it. Uh, or when I say when things go wrong, we're the ones that it falls on. But , uh, the, the reality is this is an entire , uh, group project and we always say it's a "project for the field." This is not , um, this is not something that, that just Greg [myself] or Andrew are leading.
Sara Brown:Okay. And we just talked about the Monarch probably back in the, the late spring and the Monarch was getting ready to be showcased and demoed at conferences. Can you talk about the reception the Monarch has had?
Greg Stilson:Yeah , so we've, we've had an opportunity to actually put real monarchs in people's hands , uh, at, at the booth and at focus groups and things like that. So I'm happy to say that we actually just received our second batch. So we have a hundred monarchs here in the United States , um, which is a long way from a previous episode that I did with you where I said I had the only one in the world. So , uh, we are much happier now because I'm not having to fly all over the, the world to demo this thing, which is great. Um, so we have a hundred Monarchs. Um , about half of those are gonna be dedicated to , uh, upcoming field testing, which I'll get into in a little bit. But so far we've had opportunities to showcase this at the CSUN conference in March. And then we took it to Germany and showed it at the SightCity [Frankfurt] conference , uh, to a international audience, which was sort of my first , uh, international exposure to, to demo demoing this device and seeing sort of an international response. Um , some of the most fun responses I've had have come from , uh, actually putting kiddos hands on this device. So I went to the Washington School for the Blind, Washington State School for the Blind along to the Nash , uh, along with the National Braille Challenge finals, and got to show, show it to actual braille reading students. And of course the students picked it up a heck of a lot faster than a lot of the adults picked it up. 'Cause they're kids and they're so used to working with their iPads and their phones and things like that. So picking up technology is nothing new to them. Um, but we've seen responses , uh, anywhere from people literally welling up with tears to words that I can't use on this podcast <laugh>. And it's , uh, it's been awesome to see. Uh, we've also gotten, you know, a lot of, I would say feedback. I don't just focus on the positives. There's been a ton of positives, don't get me wrong, but we've also got a lot of feedback of things that maybe we didn't do right, and things that we should look at re reevaluating. One of the things I can think of specifically is , um, at, with Washington School for the for the Blind, we worked with a student who , um, had some motor impairments and, and they weren't able to make a certain gesture that we were trying to, to utilize to , uh, bring focus to a section of a graphic. And so it's one of those moments where you kind of say, "okay, we gotta go back to the drawing board and figure out a more inclusive way to do this." So , um, so all , all good stuff, both in the positive and in the sort of critical , uh, criticism piece of it,
Sara Brown:And not the focus on just the negative, but the, the , the critical parts. I feel like the best outcomes come from hearing the cri the then the quote unquote "negative" parts because it makes you think, you know, it shows that, "oh, we might need to go back, like you said , go back to the drawing board and figure this out." You know? Yeah. All the wonderful feedback is great to hear, but sometimes the critiques always can help hone in and make thi just sort of fine tune things. You
Greg Stilson:Got it. Yeah, it's , um, it , I always say like, if, if all we get out of a focus group or a demo session is like, oh, you guys did good , so great. This is fantastic, right? Like, don't get me wrong, we're exposing people to the technology, but like from a, from a time perspective, my time is better , uh, utilized in getting feedback that we can initiate changes. You know, I always say like, I'm looking for one, at minimum, one golden nugget of of critique that is gonna sort of initiate change. And in , in one example is that that student at Washington State School for the Blind that couldn't, you know, curve their fingers to do , uh, a gesture, right? Like that was one of those moments that was an "aha moment" where, because we use a touch surface that tracks all of your fingers , um, in order to do a pointing gesture, to zoom in on a specific spot in a graphic, you have to kind of curve your fingers in or raise the other fingers up to, to sort of only isolate one finger on the touch surface. And this student flat out couldn't do it because of their motor impairments. And, and it was one of those aha moments where "I'm like, okay, we gotta go back to the drawing board and come up with a more inclusive way to, to tap in on, on these graphics and to be able to, or at least an alternative way of doing it." Right? And so , um, we have some ideas and I think we, we can give some good, good , um, customizations for people to sort of create an experience that's gonna work for them. Some people may not like to a double tap gesture or a isolating of the finger gesture anyways. And so we may be able to come up with something that that works for, for a few more folks. So,
Sara Brown:So the Monarch, you all just are just getting back from NFB. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> , can you talk about the feedback you received from that conference on the Monarch?
Greg Stilson:Yeah, so We are , um, our partners with the National Federation of the Blind and , uh, they really are providing a ton of feedback, but also helping us with the government advocacy for funding this device. Um, so what we did is we had a monarch, a couple monarchs in the booth that we showed to many, many, many, many blind people. There was something like 2,500 blind people at that conference, or convention. Um , but we also hosted , um, you know, 15 plus hours of direct user feedback sessions that we hosted early on in the week where we had anywhere from six to 10 people , uh, in, in a room going through some exercises with the Monarch. Uh, we had basically two stations set up in that user group where we had one focus really on reading and braille literacy, right? So this device can do both tactile graphics and braille , uh, standard braille characters on the same surface. But what we envision is in the same fashion that people are gonna use it for tactile graphics, we also picture people doing significantly long reading sessions on this device, right? So being able to ensure that people can read accurately, can be able to position a cursor if they're doing some editing. Um, so we put people through some exercises with different documents, and we also finally have sort of documents that can simulate what an , uh, an eBRF or an e-braille file is gonna be like, where you're actually reading formatted braille that looks natural on this touch surface or this, this tactile surface , um, 10 lines at a time. Um, and that was, that was where I was really pleased to get a lot of the positive feedback, because one of the things that we have not tested a ton is reading long passages, right? Being able to read , um, you know, several screens at a time. And , uh, all the feedback that we got with regard to the braille literacy piece was really positive that people said that they could totally envision themselves reading chapters at a time on this device, which was, was really, really pro promising to see. 'cause myself being a blind person, I'm, I'm an okay braille reader, but like, I'm, I'm not gonna read "War and Peace" on, on a, on a tactile display. It's just not, I, I'm way too slow. Um, I, I will read children's books to my kids, but <laugh>, I'm not gonna read something , uh, I'm not gonna read the "Great Gatsby" or something like that on , on my , uh, display. So really looking at how , um, e experienced Braille readers are gonna read , uh, long periods of time and things like that. But it also gave us an opportunity to get some feedback on , uh, you know, ways that you interact with graphics and how, how levels of Zoom, you know, affected your ability to interpret those graphics and things like that. So , um, lots and lots of feedback, lots of, lots of improvements that we can make, but , uh, also, you know, definitely some validation that, that we're , we're on the right track.
Sara Brown:And then talk about the feedback. You said you went to , um, Washington State School for the Blind mm-hmm . <affirmative> , and you put in the hands of kids. Kids will say anything and I'm, I feel like they probably let you know...
Greg Stilson:Oh, awesome .
Sara Brown:Do you , do you remember any feedback from them?
Greg Stilson:<laugh> ? Oh man, I will . I I , I remember one specific kid at the Braille challenge , uh, he just flat out told me he is like, "it's too heavy." And I'm like, it's too heavy. He's like, yeah, "it should be more like an iPad." And I'm like , uh, <laugh> , "you are gonna create some engineering, like genius here kid," because I , it's , it's not like we don't want it to be as heavy as an iPad <laugh>. So yeah, the , we've had kids that , um, it , I think the biggest thing I saw, and the part that is just, it was one of those reassurances of why I do what I do is one of the things that we implemented just before I went to Washington State School for the Blind was , uh, we updated the device to a new software version. And in that software version, we now have a direct connection with the device to our Tactile Graphics Image Library (TGIL). And what this does is we were always able to download files onto a thumb drive and then pop them into the Monarch and then look at those files. But you always needed a separate device and do some prep to get those TGIL files , uh, of graphics onto the device. Well, what we did is we actually hooked it up to our , um, tactile graphics, a P I, and what that allows us to do is actually within the tactile viewer application, now you have an option called, you know, where you're opening a file that exists on the device, but then we also have an option to search the TGIL directly from the device. So if you have a Wi- Fi connection, you now can search the TGIL for anything. Right. And what was the most eye-opening was just the way that these kids took to having instant access to tactile graphics that they just never have had before. So I had kids searching for cars and animals and game boards, and I had one kid who is definitely gonna be in biology and was looking at like atoms and atomic structures and like all this other stuff and , uh, or chemistry I should say. But, but he, you know, just having the ability, you know, the, the amount of times that, that I heard from those kids, "oh, what else can I see?" "What else can I see?" "Show me another one." Like, it was, it , it definitely reaffirmed that there is this graphical starvation by blind students that I think a device like this is really gonna change the game for what they have access to and, and how they're going . You know, you think about it, right? Like, it's one thing if you show, you know, somebody who's visually seen things , uh, a graphic, right? And they can kind of piece that together. But these are, a lot of these kids were blind since birth and had never seen what something looked like. And so being able to just instantly pull up that "this is a car," "this is a monarch butterfly," "this is the exoskeleton of a bee ," or something like that, <laugh> , like, you know, we have something like 18,000 graphics in this TGIL and I, I promise you these kids are gonna go through all of them at some point, <laugh> . So it was very cool to see,
Sara Brown:Oh my goodness, yes. I, I am sure that was quite the live event, the live meeting with those kids. And you know, that's really true. If they've never been able , if they've never seen anything and they've been blind since birth, that to be able to pull up these graphics just with the touch of their fingers and feel what that looks like, that they must have gone crazy over that.
Greg Stilson:It was , it was pretty cool. I, I talked to a TVI one time and they said that the average TVI , uh, I don't, I don't know if this is proven by research, but this is what they told me is that the average TVI teaches anywhere from 15 to 25 graphics a year. Okay? Now, as a sighted person, you see 15 graphics the second that you open your eyes in the morning, pretty much, right? So, you know, these kids are really, from a tactile graphics exposure perspective, they're just not given a lot of access to tactile graphics because let's, let's be honest, it takes a lot to produce them. You have to have an embosser, you have to have that knowledge, you have to have a tactile graphics artist . So the reality is, you know, this is going to, you know, in the magnitudes of thousands, be able to, to provide students access to, to graphical content that they've just never seen before.
Sara Brown:So they are just tactilly, graphic.. Tactile, graphically starved.
Greg Stilson:Yeah, that's the way, that's what I saw <laugh> . It was, it was pretty cool to watch. Um , yeah .
Sara Brown:Oh my goodness. It's so, that just sounds, honestly, I probably would've cried just because I'm seeing , you know, seeing these kids that have that, you know, that don't, seeing what these, seeing these kids, these kids realize what the , what something looks like or feels like. Ooh . And I'm sure...
Greg Stilson:It was cool. I , I remember one kid, I showed a , a picture of a camel, and he had never seen what a camel looked like. And I was like, "well, that's the hump." And he is like, well, why do they have a hump? And I'm like, I , I , I've "something related to water." I don't know, something like , <laugh> not teaching the biology of a camel at that point. I'm just like, there's the hump, man . [That's what it looks like .] That's what it looks like. Exactly. But it's, it's that type of stuff that then, you know, stimulates curiosity mm-hmm . <affirmative> . And they're like, "well, why does the hump exist ?" And I'm like, that's why they got Chat GPT and Google , man. Like, let's dive in there. So yeah, it was, it was very, very cool to see. And I think it's something that we're, we're honestly only hitting the tip of the iceberg here, like the mm-hmm . <affirmative> with, with the innovations in AI that we're starting to see , you know, we are, this is just bringing the existing tactile graphics to people's fingertips. But, you know, in the future, you know , what is this AI , uh, breakthrough, what are these breakthroughs gonna do to, you know, creating instant tactile graphics? Right? Some, some graphics that maybe just flat out didn't exist before. But now with ai, they can, they can create these graphics, you know, we're already seeing things like Dolly Two and, and some of these other , um, uh, you know, Art AI's, if you will mm-hmm . <affirmative> create content outta nothing. Yeah. And, and so, you know, is there a world coming where you see tactile graphics getting created out ? Nothing. And I think, I think the answer's gonna be "yes." It's just a matter of when , and that's something that, that my team and I, I'm sure many other smart people are looking at right now .
Sara Brown:Wow. Okay. Now, the future of Monarch, again, earlier this year when you and I spoke, you talked about it's going to be field tested . Um, how is that going? Is it out there being field tested right now? Is , do you have any updates you can share?
Greg Stilson:Sure. So we have a bunch of internal units. So APH is a big, big organization and with a number of different departments. And one of the things I tell everybody is Monarch is going to touch all the departments, right? From textbook delivery to shipping and receiving to , uh, customer service, to product management. All of this is Monarch is, is not only gonna be a product that is used by kids, but it's also, you know, one of the things that we're gonna be starting to build apps for and experiences for and things like that. So we've got a lot of internal units here at APH that are being tested and , and used by internal employees. We have a few beta units that have gone out to a few beta testers and partners , um, to provide some feedback. But really coming up in the fall, we're probably looking at October timeframe, is when we're gonna open it up to field testers. And I wish I had a better understanding of how we're going to select these field testers. I , my expectation is that our outreach team , um, rather than, than me who doesn't know a lot of these teachers from Adam, our Outreach team has , um, you know, a Regional Outreach Specialist that have relationships with teachers of the visually impaired and school districts in, in all parts of the United States. And what we're probably gonna end up doing is we've had so many requests for field testing, and for those of you who have requested, if you don't get chosen, I apologize. Because we just have a shortage of units. We have , uh, less than 50 units that are gonna go out as field testers. And I can promise you we have way more than 50 people who have requested to be field testers. So, having said all this , um, what I think we're probably gonna do is regionally open it up to requests. We're also going to utilize the, the discretion of our regional APH reps because they just know the people in their region a heck of a lot better than I do. Right? So to be a field tester, you do need to check a number of boxes because right now it's, there's gonna be a lot of sort of makeshift ex uh , test because the product's not done yet, right? So , um, we're gonna have to create on the fly content for this thing. And one of the requirements is that you will have to have connection to a braille transcriber. And if you do have a connection to a tactile graphics artist or know how to do tactile graphics, that's a huge plus as well, because we, we will have to do some on the flying content creation, at least for now. Um, but as I said , uh, we're hoping to open the field testing up in October, it'll run for about two months, is our expectation. Um , this is an obligation that we have to the federal government that when a , before a product can actually go on the federal quota schedule, we have to at least do a field test , um, process, and then come back with feedback and show that either we're choosing to make changes or that we have justified why those changes don't need to be made. So , um, this is sort of part of all the APH, you know, red tape that has to get followed to , uh, to get a product on the Federal Quota system. Uh, but after that, then we move into , um, next year we're gonna be moving into some teacher training and things like that. And I can't say too much about that 'cause I know that our outreach team is hard at work on kind of organizing how that's gonna work. But there will be regional , uh, teacher training seminars , uh, starting sometime next year, and there'll be more information coming down the pipe on that.
Sara Brown:All righty . And you just answered, my next question was <laugh> , which was going to be about teachers being trained on the Monarch, but since that's not happening until early next year, I will, I will skip that, but thank you for explaining how the field testing just that pipeline, because it is a long and arduous process. So thank you for explaining that .
Greg Stilson:Yeah. And it , and it , it , it's something that literally every product you see on the Federal Quota system has gone through some level of field testing. Some of those field tests are six people, right? Well , this is a game changing device that's literally gonna change the way that Braille is consumed from a , a digital perspective. And so we said we gotta , we gotta go at least bigger. And so it's gonna be anywhere from 40 to 50 devices that are gonna be out in the wild, which as a product manager who loves keeping things under my control and like, not <laugh> , not letting loose, [you're going Crazy.] This is , this is that moment where I'm just like, "Ooh, I'm just here for the ride." Like, let's go <laugh>. So it, it'll be fun and I'm excited to see all the feedback and uh, and see how it's actually beneficial in the classroom and things like that. But it, it is one of those moments where we are still testing while , um, it it , it's almost like if you're, if you're cooking , uh, you're , let's say you're baking something and you're like adding the batter while it's in the oven, right? Like that's kind of what we're doing is it's, [yeah,] it's in testing, but we're also gonna be making changes while it's being tested. So , um, we, we ask for , uh, your patience as we go through this process, but it's, it's gonna be fun.
Sara Brown:And when is the Monarch scheduled to, to be available for the public?
Greg Stilson:Uh, we're looking at Fall of 2024. So , uh, our hope is the , the fall semester of that.
Sara Brown:So essentially in about a year and some change.
Greg Stilson:No, You don't , you gimme more time. Like we're talking to 14 months, Sara, four 14 months. We're still gimme those every month is gonna give you...
Sara Brown:All the change. You can.
Greg Stilson:Okay . This's gonna matter. Absolutely.
Sara Brown:Alright , well, it's an exciting time. It's, it's, this is, this is gonna really shake some things up and it's really exciting to hear. Is there anything else you would like to say about this phase in the Monarch pipeline or anything overall about the Monarch, field testing, anything?
Greg Stilson:No , I, I think , um, you know, now it's, it's really in the hands of the software. We validated the, the hardware design, the hardware design's pretty well locked in. Um, uh, unfortunately for that kid from Braille Challenge, it's not gonna be an iPad, it's gonna be about four and a half pounds. That's , uh, that's what we're dealing with on the plus side. I can say a little bit about , um, some of the results that we're seeing. We've done battery tests and, you know, originally we were hoping for eight hours of battery life. And the reality is we're seeing about anywhere from 22 to 30 hours, depending on how it's being used. So it's, it's not that your student is gonna have to charge this every night. This is gonna be something that, I mean, I'll give you an example. When I was at NFB and doing all of these, these focus groups and had the device at the booth and things like that, I charged the device one time that week and I used it hours upon hours upon hours, had so many people's hands on it. Um , and it, it, I only charged the device one time that entire trip. So that in and of itself that's huge , is really cool. Um, and , uh, so yeah, I think from a hardware perspective we're pretty well locked in. Um, and , uh, it's now really up to the software gods to , uh, to, to grace us with good versions. And , um, hopefully we , uh, we, we get some good testers in that can catch bugs because there will be bugs. I , uh, I make no bones about that. The other thing that I will mention really briefly is that we are , uh, implementing an , uh, over-the-air device update feature. So , um, it's, it's, it's not gonna be a challenge for you to update the device. You can update the device either over the air on wifi or via a USB thumb drive, depending on what's easier for your school district. Because we know that some districts , uh, IT departments are a little bit more stringent than others. So , uh, we do offer sort of that USB updating feature as well.
Sara Brown:Alright , Greg, thank you so much for coming on and talking to us about the Monarch today.
Greg Stilson:Hey, thanks so much and we'll talk to you guys soon.
Sara Brown:I've put links to stories and blogs that we've written about the Monarch so you can keep up with the process and to continue that story with the Monarch, you have the eBRF, I have APH''s, Nicole Gaines and William Freeman here to talk more about the eBRF because that's part of the Monarch and we need an update on that. So hello William and Nicole and thanks for joining me on Changemakers.
Nicole Gaines:Thanks Sara. Um , really happy to be here this afternoon. Uh , my name's Nicole Gaines and I am , uh, the National Director of Digital Access Initiatives at APH and I'm also the Project Director for the National Instructional Materials Access Center.
William Freeman:And yeah , uh, thank you. I'm William Freeman. I'm really happy to be here as well. I love talking about braille and technology. I'm the Tactile Technology Product Manager at APH I work with our braille displays and I have a background in braille transcription and accessibility testing.
Sara Brown:Okay. And this is a really exciting time for braille, especially electronic braille with the E B R F . Can you just talk about what the E B R F is and why this is such a fascinating time to see this come to light?
William Freeman:Uh, sure. So the current braille file type is called BRF and it's a great file type. It's really lightweight, it's really easy to open, it's easy to work with as far as creating it, but it has a lot of downsides, a lot of downsides that we're trying to correct with the eBRF. Uh, for one, like the BRF is whatever size you make it for, whatever page size you make it for, that's the only page size it works with. So if you make it for 40 cells by 25 lines, which is your typical page size, that's all you get is 40 cells by 25 lines. If you try to do a different size, it messes everything up. Um, if you try to edit a BRF after it's created, that messes everything up. Um, it starts messing up your line lengths, everything gets pushed down and it just causes all these problems. Um , with the eBRF, you're getting a dynamic file type. So it can work on any size line, it can work on single line , multi-line, different page sizes. And it really is about supporting rail displays like Mantis and the Chameleon multi-line displays like the Monarch, but also displays made by other folks and also different page sizes for paper. And the number one thing that it does that I think is really cool is it includes links. So you can link to page numbers, you can link to things like footnotes. It gives you quicker navigation. I think navigation is a really big challenge , whether you're working with dynamic braille or paper braille. It's a really big challenge for students in the classroom. 'cause the teacher's gonna say, go to this heading on page 40 and all your fellow classmates are gonna get there in two seconds, whereas it's gonna take you a while to find it in your file or in your big stack of paper. So it's really about correcting these problems and just making braille easier to consume.
Sara Brown:Now, creating this eBRF, that's a , a pretty, pretty big undertaking for APH. Can you talk about some of the partners that are assisting in helping us get this eBRF developed and what are some of the challenges with working with so many different people and organizations?
William Freeman:Sure. Uh, it's definitely been an international effort and we, our biggest thanks goes to the DAISY Consortium. They are really an international body that helps with accessibility when it comes to print materials. And they've been the ones who have helped us organize all these different companies and bring them all to the table. And it's been great. It is challenging. Like there's definitely, you know, each group has their own perspective. So we have like braille libraries, like NLSs in the United States. Uh, Nells is the equivalent of that in , uh, Canada. You've got RNIB , uh, you've got companies like , uh, View Plus and HumanWare and Duxbury. Uh, you've got blindness organizations like NFB, you've got, you know, all these different perspectives and it's really what's gonna make this file type of success. If we only had companies, the focus would be too narrow. It would be on "what's gonna sell more braille displays," "what's gonna sell more multi-line devices." Uh, it might be if we only had embosser companies, it would "be what's gonna sell more embossers?" And, you know, you'd leave Braille displays behind. So you really need all these different groups coming together and saying, "well, this is what I need, this is what I need." Uh, "here's what's gonna work best." And at the very center of everything is the braille user. "What's gonna make things better for the braille user," "what's gonna make it easier to consume these , um, pieces of work?" And our, our main kind of design goal is a braille eub. You know, folks may not be familiar with ePub directly, but if you've used any kind of e-reader, so if you've read on a Kindle or a Cobo or a tablet, you've basically read an epub, you've read a variation of epub, and that's what we're making is a braille version of ePub. Uh , and yeah, all these folks do have their own perspectives, but you need that in order to think of all the problems and challenges that are gonna come up and to try to plan ahead and make sure that the file type is gonna be, be able to handle those different needs.
Nicole Gaines:And just to chime in on that real quickly, you know, as, as William mentioned, having all of these partners and having this international engagement is such an important piece because, you know, even though we really discovered the need for this new file format as a part of the Monarch project and working on that device, we really did not want this to be a proprietary file format. We really want this to be a multi-use format that is adopted internationally and really supports the new generation of, of multi-line , uh, braille displays as well as other devices and embossed braille. And so it's just, it's really important to Daisy and, and APH to , uh, to get that international participation and that widespread adoption of the format.
William Freeman:Uh, that's a perfect point, Nicole . And the other interesting thing too was when we first started going around talking with folks about this idea, we heard over and over and over again, "we wanted to do that, but we didn't know where to start." Or "we knew that we needed this, but we didn't know how to get going." And it just took, you know, something like the Monarch to demonstrate like, no, this has to be done, this should have been done 10 years ago, but since it didn't, we need to do it now.
Sara Brown:Wow . So it was heard throughout the field that they've been wanting something like this, but sometimes you just don't know where to start, don't know how to get it going. So, alright , kudos to you too , <laugh>. Now, what are some of the features of the eBRF and how does it relate to the , these new generations of the multi-line braille displays like the Monarch?
Nicole Gaines:Well, as, as William has mentioned, you know, one of the really big , uh, advantages of this new file format is gonna be in the area of navigation. And , um, when, when William was mentioning epub, you know, again, if you've ever borrowed a digital book from your public library, if you're, you know, you're used to how you can navigate, you can go from the table of contents to a specific chapter, you can page through , uh, you may even be able to use an index entry and go back to the page where that particular index entry is found. And so we really want to bring all of those capabilities , uh, into the picture in terms of folks who are using the Monarch or other multi-line displays. Um, the other thing that's just huge is for the first time we are going to have the capability of displaying tactile graphics in a digital format integrated with the text. And so this is gonna be a huge improvement in terms of , uh, the kinds of content that students are going to be able to access. And, you know, at a very nuts and bolts level, we are, you know, kind of the vision forward is a kid could conceivably have all of their textbooks on their Monarch instead of having to navigate through , uh, volumes and volumes and volumes of hard copy braille. Um, but this isn't to say that embossed braille is no longer important. It's going to continue to be crucial for a lot of grades and a lot of subjects, mathematics and science, early literacy are , those are kind of some, some key areas where we, we know that embossed braille is gonna remain really important, but to the extent that we can leverage the ability of the Monarch and similar devices in education is , it's just gonna be really huge. Um , another part of that in terms of on the delivery side is that we are looking forward to a time when a p H will be able to deliver these digital textbooks directly to the student's device, you know, and really cut down the amount of time it takes just getting that material to the students . So it's a really, really exciting time with regard to that as well. And , uh, with that, I was gonna just hand it off and talk, tell what to have William have an opportunity to talk a little bit about the, the role of the transcriber , uh, because I think sometimes when there's , uh, change, when there's kind of a major change in the field, there can be some kind of concerns , uh, about, you know, how is the role of, of folks who are, are providing the content, how is that gonna change? And so , uh, it's just really important to know that the transcribers are gonna continue to be really important in that process.
William Freeman:Yes. Um, like I started, as a transcriber, I started using Duxbury and that was where I learned how to be a transcriber. And then I worked with Braille Blaster. The , the big thing that both of those , uh, have in common is they already use Markup. Markup is the act of applying the styles to the text. So it's saying, "this is a heading," "this is a list," "this is a paragraph," "this is a table." And that's the, the really the heart of what the eBRF is. So when I was a transcriber, I would come in every day with my print book and I would go through the braille file and I would just apply those styles. I would apply, you know, "heading lists table" "heading list table." And the craziest thing to me, like the thing that still like surprises me is at the very end of it, when I was done with the book, I would go "file save" and I'd create my BRF. And it was at that moment that all that information got thrown away. It all got thrown out. So instead of having markup in that BRF file, you just have blank space. So you just have the, the blank cells and the blank lines, but you have nothing in the file saying this is a heading. It happens to be centered, or it happens to start in cell five or whatever. But there's nothing else in the file file that says this is a heading, this is a paragraph, this is a list. Uh, and so the transcriber's job is gonna be more important than ever. And because we need, you know, we need these high quality files so that the student can benefit from them existing. You know, they , there needs to be someone to create them, but the transcriber's job isn't gonna really change that much because they're still gonna be doing that same workflow of "this is a heading," "this is a list," "this is a table." Um , the only thing that's new is gonna be adding the links. So they'll have to, you know, select the text and say this is a link. And then adding in the graphics. So they'll have to, they'll have to, you know, add in the file for the graphics and attach it to the, the braille and where it needs to appear. That's really it. Um, the rest of the changes, all these cool things that we're talking about, those are all gonna be happening in the background. So that's gonna be changes that Duxbury has to make, that Braille Blaster has to make, and then that the reading software has to make. So we'll be making changes on our braille displays on the Monarch on our future braille tech devices. You know, that's where all those changes are gonna be happening. Most users, most content creators, you're not really gonna see any of the the new things we're doing , uh, as far as it impacting your, your day-to-day workflow.
Sara Brown:Okay. So essentially the , the , the role of the transcriber, they will be needed. That's not getting phased out, that's not going away. It'll definitely still be in demand. So that's nice and very comforting I'm sure to hear. because there always is that concern. And so I understand, I understand that. So thank you for explaining that so thoroughly.
William Freeman:And one other thing too here real quick is the training for teachers and braille users is gonna be minimal too . The act of reading isn't going to change. Uh, there's gonna be new skills. There's gonna be, "Hey, this is a link and here's how you identify that this is a link and this is how you activate a link." But that's gonna be it, it's not gonna be a ton of new skills that the user has to learn in order to use these new , um, these new files.
Sara Brown:Okay. Now we have NIMAC here at APH. So talk about how NIMAC and NIMAS fit into the eBRF picture <laugh>, like all those acronyms, <laugh> .
Nicole Gaines:Right. Well, and, and because those are some , uh, some pretty long acronyms, I will , um, just kind of mention for anybody who's not familiar with them, the NIMAC stands for the National Instructional Materials Access Center, while NIMAS stands for the National Instructional Materials Accessibility Standard. And the NIMAC , uh, has been located at APH since 2006. We are a , an OSEP funded project that receives digital files in the NIMAS format, which organizations like a , in the production of braille, large print, ePub, Daisy, and other accessible formats. And so , um, you know, with our role being to support that broader ecosystem, you know, it's really important for the NIMAC and it's a high priority for the NIMAC to ensure that the, the many files that we've received, we've received over 73,000 files from 170 educational publishers. Um, and just as a side note, I would note that we reached a significant milestone just recently with our 50,000 download , um, by a user. Um , and so just to kind of put that in context, APH has downloaded over 2,400 files as a major producer, and then we've got a total of over 50,000 that have been downloaded for the first time production of braille or another accessible format. And so, you know, so one of the things that's really important for us, you know, as , as William mentioned, there's um, the markup that has always been a part of creating braille. You know, one of the things that's advantageous about NIMAS is that it already, it's , um, it's a tagged format with semantic tags. And not to get too deep in the weeds on that, but we can actually really leverage the NIMAS file format to , uh, to capture a lot of that structure that can be retained in the production of the eBRF format. And so one of the things that we are already looking into and anticipating is, you know, how can we support the development of tools to easily create eBRF from NIMAS source files? That's just, just gonna be something that's really important to us. And we're really hoping that that , uh, the Braille Blaster and the DAISY pipeline, that both of those can kind of be initial tools that can lead the way in supporting , uh, the conversion of NIMAS into the eBRF format. So we're, we're already working on it . So I'm very, very excited about that.
William Freeman:And NIMAS really was part of the inspiration for the original idea of ebraille because of the markup in NIMAS files already being geared for accessibility. It gave us a really good starting point of how to think about how to do markup for braille generally. So it really was a great place to start. And it was working with Braille Blaster that helped us get there.
Sara Brown:That's always amazing and always just fun to hear too, kind of what, what lays the, the , the blueprint or the , the , the , the, the footing for products that come. So that's always interesting. Okay, so Braille Blasters one of the, one of the products. Now we, we know what's going on with the eBRFF. We've heard , you know, you just explained what it is and where, where it is in process. What is next? What is coming in the, the next, the next quarter, the next three months, six months, year out?
William Freeman:So we're getting near the end of the year. I mean, it's, we're about halfway through, but it feels like the end of the year is almost upon us. And the big goal, the big milestone for the end of the year is releasing the first specification. And so the , we've made a lot of the important decisions that we need to have made about , uh, how we're gonna set up this file type. There's still some decisions to be made, but the biggest thing we're gonna be doing with the last kind of half of the year is actually writing the specification. So now that we've laid the groundwork , uh, we'll literally need to write the specifications. And I don't know if any of , uh, your listeners have ever read one of these specifications, but they are very, very, very highly detailed. It's almost like it's more detailed than the U. S. Constitution. <laugh>, like the U. S. Constitution has ambiguity in it. These specifications leave no room for ambiguity. So it's a very technical thing. And I'm so grateful , uh, for the folks at DAISY because they've written these specifications before. And so we'll be working with them using the decisions that we made as a group to write the specification. And it'll, it'll be fun to finally get that first spec out there, because that'll be when people start implementing it into their hardware and software. And we'll really start to see the eBRF start to appear in the wild , uh, once that spec is out.
Nicole Gaines:And just to kind of piggyback on that a little bit in terms of , um, the, the roadmap and the timeline, you know, as, as William mentioned, it's like what we're really hoping for is to have that the eBRF 1.0 to, to have that published in early 2024. And then really, I think the next big , uh, effort is gonna come in the area of having a good digital tactile graphic specification. You know, one of the things about this new generation of multi-line displays is that for the first time students who are using a digital tactile graphic will have an opportunity to zoom, to interact with images in a way that's really different from, from what has been possible with hard copy tactile graphics up until now. And so, you know, as a part of , uh, figuring out, hey, what is really gonna be the best type of digital graphic to , uh, for students to work with in that kind of environment with those kinds of devices, it's really, it's a really exciting time for that. And so kind of just figuring out what is gonna need to go into the tactical graphic side in order to really leverage the capabilities of the Monarch and other devices that , uh, will be coming down the road.
William Freeman:That's, that's such a good point, Nicole . And something I , something I find interesting here is , um, kind of the way tactile graphics are made for paper and how that changes dynamically. Like you were talking about zooming, and I'm Appalachian, and I always thought the Appalachian Mountain range was very, very large. Well, I learned recently there was a, it was a , uh, tactile graphic map of the world, and the Appalachian Mountain range is so small that in order for it to be discernible on a tactile map, they had to make it larger. So they had to embellish the size of the Appalachian Mountain range, otherwise you wouldn't be able to feel it. Really. Yeah. <laugh> , now if you can zoom in, you don't need to do that anymore. Now the size will adjust as you zoom in. So Right . It's like this whole different take on tactile graphics where now the user really is an active agent in, in, you know, consuming and understanding the graphic. So it's a neat thing. Mm-hmm.
Nicole Gaines:<affirmative> , definitely.
Sara Brown:That's so cool. And I never thought, but that's a perfect explanation to under , to sort of drive home the point of zooming and its importance of being able to do that in with the tactile graphics. Wow. Is there anything else you both would like to add, whether it be about the Monarch or eBRF or anything in particular?
William Freeman:I would like to say thanks to the folks at NFB, we just did a bunch of user testing , uh, at the most recent, the July , uh, NFB conference. And it was so great getting to meet folks and actually sent with them while they use the device and to take in their opinions. Uh, the big things we looked at there with the Monarch were how people are gonna do selection, you know, on a single line display, you have , uh, above the braille cells, you have router keys. Well, when you've got 32 cells by 10 lines, you can't have that many router keys. It would totally disrupt the whole flow of everything. Uh, and so we have to do selection completely differently. And so we're basically mimicking a touchscreen, but even knowing that, what is the way that users prefer and how do you accommodate different users' needs? Uh , so it was just really great getting a chance to try out the different methods that we've talked about and incorporate that feedback. And ultimately, we're gonna have multiple ways that users can interact with the Monarch. That's the , you know, the best way to handle everybody's different needs is to have lots of different options. But we still, it was good and we were able to refine the options that we, we gave , uh, and just go with , uh, the best. So it's a really exciting time for just new ways of interacting with braille and tactile graphics, and it's gonna be a lot of , there's a lot of cool stuff that'll be coming both from the Monarch and from other devices in our field .
Nicole Gaines:And I would just wrap up by noting as well that, you know, in terms of it being an international specification and having the contributions and adoption , uh, at a , at an international level, that, you know, not only is that kind of , uh, important just in terms of having , um, having a file format that is standard and interoperability and, and that kind of thing, but the , in terms of the way that the eBRF itself is structured, it actually is going to make it easier to share Braille internationally to, to , uh, actually prov have braille , um, translated more easily into other languages. And so, you know, when we think about , uh, what has been recently accomplished through the Marrakesh Treaty and the ability to , uh, share Braille across Borders, share other accessible formats across borders, we can really see that the eBRF really , uh, helps support that as well in terms of, of providing a better availability of braille, not just to our , to kids in the US and to our students who of course we wanna serve, but also more globally to just , uh, really enhance the ability for , uh, braille to get into folks' hands. So just wanted to mention that.
Sara Brown:Well, Nicole and William, thank you both so much for joining me today on Change Makers.
Nicole Gaines:You're welcome. Thanks. Thanks. It's a pleasure to be here.
William Freeman:Yeah. Thanks so much. This has been great.
Sara Brown:And I've put links in the show notes to the eBRF, that way listeners out there such as yourself can go and learn more. Now I have Claire Copps with the Rural Tech Fund here to talk about this great organization. If you don't know, you'll soon learn about it. But the Rural Tech Fund, it aims to empower our future technology leaders and narrow the digital divide between rural and urban areas. Hello Claire, and welcome to Change Makers .
Claire Copps:Hi, thank you so much for having me.
Sara Brown:So up first, can you share what service Rural Tech Fund provides and what you do at Rural Tech Fund as well?
Claire Copps:Sure. Uh , so we work to narrow the digital divide between rural and non-rural areas. So our mission at the nonprofit is to help rural students recognize opportunities in tech careers, facilitate pathways so they can work in the computer industry. And we also provide equitable access to tech for students with disabilities. So we do this through working with rural public schools and libraries. We deliver tech ed resources for computer science and STEM ed classes, extracurricular programs. We also provide scholarships for rural students who are pur pursuing computer related majors. And recently last year we added assistive tech to our mission. Uh, so we started providing assistive technology equipment to increase educational access for students with disabilities. Uh, I am the COO there, so I run our daily operations , um, and I work alongside Chris Sanders, who is our founder and executive director at the Rural Tech Fund.
Sara Brown:When was Rural Tech founded? How old is this organization?
Claire Copps:Sure. So we were founded in 2008 by Chris Sanders. Uh, he started the RF to help introduce rural students to the potential of tech careers , um, give them the education they need to pursue those jobs. So originally the RTF was a scholarship fund. Since then, we've grown to include these classroom technology donations to public schools and libraries.
Sara Brown:Okay. And rural students often have fewer opportunities for technology . Can you explain why that is? Is it money or just sheer access?
Claire Copps:Absolutely. Uh, so there's a few reasons , uh, that we typically cite here. Um, first of all, when we talk about rural areas , uh, they're not typically home to technology company offices. Uh, therefore, community supports often lacking. Uh, we're talking about tech related internship opportunities , um, education training programs and mentorship. And since exposure to tech is critical in order to gain interest to the field, you know, the funding to supply opportunities is what really helps reach these underserved rural populations. Um, another reason that, that we see these, these fewer opportunities is people in rural areas are more likely to already be in poverty. And as they say, poverty charges interest. Uh, the Department of Agriculture says, you know, economic conditions in poor areas can create limited opportunities for poor residents, and those become self-perpetuating. Um, and lastly, the need for increased STEM exposure in these rural areas is very well documented. So research shows us that rural students aren't pursuing STEM fields as the, at the same rate as their suburban and urban counterparts. Um, and that's because of a lack of opportunity for STEM learning. And this is informal and informal K-12 educational environments. Uh, so without dedicated funding for these rural classrooms, the students aren't accessing STEM opportunities that their same age peers are, you know, in urban and suburban areas. Um, so funneling resources into these rural areas both increases children's exposure to the benefits of STEM ed and opens channels for, you know, those post-secondary opportunities that can benefit and also reinvest back into these rural communities.
Sara Brown:And about how many students have been impacted?
Claire Copps:So to date , um, the Rural Tech Fund has put tech ed resources into the hands of over 170,000 students. Um, we've donated to over 800 schools and libraries and we have donated in all 50 states. So our next big benchmark goal at the RTF is to reach 250,000 students across the states.
Sara Brown:Wow. All 50 states. That's so cool. Mm-hmm . <affirmative> . And what are some of the projects you fund? Or is it based on individual needs ?
Claire Copps:Sure. This is a great question. Um, so I will tell you our , our applications and our projects do vary a bit from year to year. Um, so projects we fund are really designed to help spark student interest in tech-based careers like computer science , uh, computer engineering, information technology programming , uh, cybersecurity, robotics, et cetera . So in some cases, these projects include smaller donations like a raspberry pi microcomputer or a robotics kit. And in other situations we'll partner with a school district or a library and provide entire maker spaces that are equipped with things like circuit development kits , uh, three D printers, robotics kits, classroom sets of micro computers to build upon. Uh, we also frequently fund early stage robotics classes, teams and clubs interested in project-based learning that will often culminate in competitive events like first. So each grant application that comes in is reviewed for its fit within our scope and budget. Uh, this year we've done projects ranging from robotics teams to a solar powered hydroponics grow cart to a mini boat launch that's gonna collect data on ocean currents and temperature to an assistive tech library where educators can check out technology for their students to trial for accessibility purposes. So our educators send in some amazing projects that expose their students to tech.
Sara Brown:Yeah, that's some super cool stuff. That's the, the, the, the water current. Yeah, that sounds really cool. Rural Tech Fund, they provide more than just products for students. It's also scholarships too. Can you talk about that?
Claire Copps:Absolutely. So the RTF, like we talked about, started as a scholarship fund and we continue to provide those scholarships. Um, so our cybersecurity scholarships are for rural students planning to pursue a degree in a computer tech related field. And that scholarship includes a monetary award of a thousand dollars, but also the opportunity to take two SANS training courses and the corresponding certification exams. Um, we also provide a memorial scholarship. All of these live on our website. Um, we actually just announced our 2023 scholarship recipients yesterday on our blog and our social media channels. Um, so we distributed scholarships to four amazing individuals in Illinois, New York, Alabama, and Kentucky this year.
Sara Brown:And how can someone help out there listening, wanna, how can they help with this mission of yours, of, of the rural tech fund?
Claire Copps:Absolutely. Um, so there's a few different ways people can really help our mission. Um, first and foremost, people can help us by spreading the word. Um, so the more educators who know that we exist, the more places we can reach and the more students we can impact. Additionally, the more people who know about us, the more people who can gain interest in supporting our mission. Um, we're very active on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and now Threads . So if anyone wants to search at Rural Tech Fund , they would find us on any of those channels. Um, our website houses our blog and also all of our grant and donation information. Um, and secondly, of course, our success as a nonprofit relies on donations from businesses and individuals who support our work. Uh , so we're deeply appreciative of people who donate to us either one time or join our Patreon. Um, just for reference, for about $5, we can put tech ed resources into the hands of a student. So there's a great level of impact for every single donation that we receive.
Sara Brown:And is there anything else you would like to share or let our listeners know?
Claire Copps:Absolutely. Um, so we're so thrilled to have connected with APH. Um, since we've expanded into assistive tech last year, we're really reaching or trying to reach more educators in areas to let them know that we have resources and grant opportunities not only for classroom tech, but also for assistive techniques within these schools. Um, so if anyone listening has an opportunity or an idea or a network that we could utilize to reach more rural educators and librarians, please reach out to us. You can reach us , uh, through a message on our website. You can meet, reach us on any of those social media channels. Those messages will come right to me. Uh, we just wanna continue our work in as many rural areas as possible and keep growing so that we can try to reach that goal of 250,000 students. Uh, so thank you so much for having me on today to discuss the RTF and what we do, and we hope that some of these listeners will follow along on our journey through our social media channels and our newsletter.
Sara Brown:Awesome. Claire, thanks so much for joining me today on Change Makers.
Claire Copps:Thank you, you so much. I appreciate it.
Sara Brown:I've put links to information about the Monarch, the eBRF and the Rural Tech Fund, so please visit them and learn more about what's coming. It's a really exciting time. And as always, thank you so much for listening to this podcast. And be sure to find ways you can be a change maker this week.