On this episode of Change Makers, we're talking about blindness etiquette with both canes and dogs. Hear from two cane users, and two guide dog users, as they detail their experiences, and share some basic etiquette tips for the general public.
On this Podcast (In Order of Appearance)
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On this episode of Change Makers, we're talking about blindness etiquette with both canes and dogs. Hear from two cane users, and two guide dog users, as they detail their experiences, and share some basic etiquette tips for the general public.
On this Podcast (In Order of Appearance)
Additional Links
<silence> Welcome to Change Makers , a podcast from APH. We're talking to people from around the world who are creating positive change in the lives of people who are blind or have low vision. Here's your host.
Sara Brown:Hello and welcome to Change Makers . I'm APH's Public Relations manager, Sara Brown . And on this episode, we are talking about blindness etiquette. Hear from two cane users and two guide dog users as they detail their experiences and share some basic etiquette tips for the general public up . First, I have APH's, Kathryn Frederick. She's the Digital Content Manager for Vision Aware and the ConnectCenter. I also have Joe Hodge. He's APH's Lead Technical Quality Assurance Analyst, Technology Product Research. Hi Katie . Hi Joe , and welcome to Change Makers.
Kathryn Frederick:Thanks for having me.
Joe Hodge:Glad to be here. Sara,
Sara Brown:First and foremost, can you just introduce yourselves to our listeners and just share a little bit about what it is that you do here at APH? Uh, Katie , if you wanna take the lead.
Kathryn Frederick:Sure. So I have been with APH for almost two years now, coming up on two years in October. And I work in the APH ConnectCenter where we provide resources for people who might be new to blindness or low vision, or professionals who work in the field or work with people who are blind or low vision. So I help create some of the content on our website at aphconnectcenter.org, as well as help with webinars and present at conferences and do outreach activities, things like that to help let people know that we are a resource here in the community.
Sara Brown:Okay. Joe, what about you?
Joe Hodge:Uh, so I've been at APH for, this is my sixth year, going on my seventh. Um, and I do a number of things primarily. Um, I test software and hardware looking for issues. Um, so at APH one of the things that we're doing now with our braille displays is we're working with the manufacturers of Apple, Google, Microsoft to sort of create a great experience for the customer. So a lot of times I'm looking at their betas and making sure things are working well. We don't ultimately decide what goes out to the customer as far as, you know, their, their finished software. But, you know, we try to at least have some input and say like, "Hey, could you guys fix this?" Um, just so our customers have an easier time. Uh, I also do a lot of app testing. So we develop a lot of apps here at APH , um, for iOS, Android, Chromebooks, windows, et cetera. Uh , so I do a lot of testing there. And then , uh, I do a little bit of , uh, accessibility testing. So we've partnered in the past with companies like GE where we go out and we help them , uh, try to correct , uh, issues like in products like ovens and different things that they've asked us to work with them on. Uh, so we've done a little work with there as well. And then finally , um, presenting at conferences and, and learning, you know, technology is ever changing. So , um, I like to kind of play around with different things and see what is gonna come out next to assist , uh, folks who are low vision or, or blind , um, because I'm blind myself. So it , it's kind of fun to, you know, be part of that and see what's coming.
Sara Brown:Can you talk about your experience , um, as a cane user and how you use your cane to navigate?
Kathryn Frederick:So this is Katie . I have been blind all my life, and so a cane is , my cane is a tool that I received instruction in early on, and I attended the school in my local community and went to a public school. And so I received orientation and mobility instruction or o&m during school , um, time . So during my education and , um, using my cane to navigate for me has actually been kind of an interesting, interesting journey. Um, I did use a cane until I was 16 and then worked with , um, guide dogs for 20 years and am now back, back to the cane for the time being. So it's been a really interesting journey and , um, in terms of navigating it is , um, it's an experience sometimes. So , um, you know, one of the things that a cane, the, you know, it , it's really is meant to let you know about obstacles in your path. And some places more than others certainly have their share of obstacles. So it's always kind of a matter of trying to navigate those and also try to get where I wanna go in an efficient manner, which can sometimes be a challenge.
Sara Brown:And we're gonna talk about those challenges, <laugh> , but Joe, talk about your experience as a cane user.
Joe Hodge:Yeah, so I'm actually very similar to Katie's story. So I grew up , um, uh, in a very sort of country rural area , uh, in Indiana. Um, went to public school. So I got my o&m training , uh, during some instruction , uh, at school , uh, my teachers would take me out and we'd, we'd go, I remember being in like the third grade with my cane, and we'd go to a mall and they would literally have me go find a cd, you know, at Sam Goody or something. I'm dating myself, <laugh>. But , um, you know, so it was , it was a lot of fun. Um, you know, doing those, those things like in school. And then as I grew , uh, went to college , uh, did four years with a cane, and then , um, I got a guide dog , um, and had her for 10 years. Uh, and then she passed away with , um, and I decided to go back and get a second dog. And that did not work out. Um, he had a barking issue. So then I've kind of resided to the cane in the last, I don't know , six years I guess now. Um, and it's honestly been fine. Uh, you know, inventions like Uber, things like that. It's like, it's just, you know, it's gotten so much easier , um, to, to sort of navigate things. Like Katie said, there's, you know, there's different situations where canes can be a little challenging , uh, versus a guide dog, but I actually kind of prefer guide dogs will take you. One difference between a dog and a cane that I've learned is guide dogs will take you around obstacles so you don't even know they're there. Uh , a cane. You know, I kind of find the obstacles and sort of use orientation off of those sometimes. So there's just different ways. There's positive and negatives for me mm-hmm . <affirmative> , uh, but the cane has been, you know, a symbol of my sort of independence. I , I , um, you know, I can't imagine not having, you know, one, one or the other. Um, so it's, it's been , uh, I think through my training and my experience, like the cane just sort of, it's a tool and , and sort of what I use for, for that independence. So
Sara Brown:Can you talk about some of the experiences you've encountered using a cane both positive and negative?
Kathryn Frederick:So for me , um, as someone who's kind of, you know, recently began using my cane again after, again using, working with Guide Dogs for 20 years , um, over the past year and a half or so, one thing that I've found is as I've been traveling , um, people sometimes tend to grab my cane if I'm trying to , um, you know, if they're trying to quote "assist me." And again, I know people mean well and they want to help, and that is awesome and I really appreciate that. But grabbing a person's cane is not the way to do it. Um, you know, it's always best to ask "how can I help you?" Or "would you like some assistance" that may or may , you know, the , the i the person traveling with the cane may or may not need assistance, or I might say, yes, "thank you so much, I would love assistance," but please do not grab a person's cane. Um , that can be very in, in my space. I guess I would say, I'm sorry, I'm just trying to find the right word. Um, it just seems a little , um, you know, very close. And also, you know, the cane is, is kind of part of me. So it's , um, just not the best way to handle that situation. There are other more appropriate ways to, to handle it. Um, on the positive side though of that, I would say that, you know, sometimes when traveling with a cane , um, people will come up to me and say, "oh, you know, if you just go slightly to your left, you'll go around that, you know, that obstacle" or , um, you know, so there, there is the, the good flip side of the, of the help situation as well. Um, I also think on the positive side, as , um, Joe kind of mentioned earlier, the, the cane, you know, it definitely lets people know that I am blind or have a vision challenge whether I'm, you know, whether I would be low vision or blind. I'm, I am totally blind. So , um, you know, I do think it kind of helps in that regard of letting people know that, oh, this person is carrying ca carrying her cane. She may need or want some additional assistance or , um, so I do think it helps , um, with, with that as well. What about you, Joe?
Joe Hodge:So I'll start with the negative. Um, sort of hard to bring up, but I guess I will , um, in , in a way , uh, so with my cane, I've had, I've actually gone to three or four different weddings. So as an adult, I would say, like since college and , uh, when it's time to do like photos, whether if I'm part of the weather wedding party or something , um, the question often gets asked like, "would you like to put your cane away?" Um, and I think for me it's sort of , uh, uh, disrespectful , um, you know, like , uh, <laugh> , the cane is some how gonna ruin the image that they're trying to portray. And , um, in one wedding it was sort of ironic because , uh, one of the other groomsmen was in a wheelchair and they didn't ask, you know, "that person to get outta the wheelchair, right?" So it's sort of weird to me , um, the negative connotation that surrounds canes and can use . Uh , you know, I often try to help out on wine support groups , um, different places online. And one of the things I often hear and read about when people lose their vision is that acceptance of carrying a cane. And for me, like being a long time blind, you know, I've been blind my whole life , uh, you know, as Katie mentioned in , in the top right. And so it's, it , it , it doesn't, I think it's har , you know, different when you lose your vision later in life. But, you know, it's still hard to sort of hear and , and it sometimes emotionally impacts me to sort of hear that , um, uh, people struggle with just carrying a cane around because of perception in public. Um, you know, I , I wish that would change. Um , but on a positive side, I would say , uh, trying . 'cause I'm a positive person, so <laugh> , uh, on the positive side, you know, dealing with , uh, Uber rides, as I mentioned earlier, I've never been denied for having a cane where I was denied a lot for having a , you know, being, being a guide dog user. Um, that to me, is it , you know, it just easier to get around for me. Um, I would say too, I've had good times with it. Uh, I often go to a lot of belt ball games , and, and so like, after the game , uh, there will be people that will come up and go, "where, where did you park at?" You know? And , uh, it's like, it doesn't sink in <laugh> , uh, that I'm , that I'm blood , you know, or I don't know. It's just, it's sort of interesting how people , um, just sort of interact with you. Um, but it's, you know, I, I would say as far as having a cane goes, I, I feel , um, much more confident. You know, when I, when I had a , a guide dog, you know, you would hear people kind of say, comment about hair or just different things that were outta your control, you know? Um, so I do feel like moving around in society that I'm a tad bit more , um, flexible with the cane, which I think is, which, which to me is a positive.
Sara Brown:Okay. And then talk about what you want people to know when they see you coming with your cane, or just see anybody coming with a cane , because some people might have that good deed personality where they, but not, not everybody's lost, not everybody with a cane needs assistance. So what do you want people just to know?
Kathryn Frederick:Um, I think, again, just, you know, recognizing that there is , um, a person with the cane who, you know, yes , um, may want or need assistance, but may not. So if, you know, if you do wanna help ask, you know, how can I help you? But if the person says, oh, I'm, I'm okay. Even if, you know, even if they may , um, be exploring, you know, let them explore. Because I know for me, as, as I think Joe mentioned earlier, sometimes we're, when we're using arc cane , we do have to encounter an obstacle, and we use that obstacle to kind of help us get out of a situation or maybe somewhere we want to go. It's a landmark, right? And so, you know, we, we may not want to avoid it. We might want to touch it with the cane or, or something and say, "oh, yes, this is, you know, this is where I need to be." So I think, again, just , um, if, if a person does wanna help, just coming up to the person and asking , "hi, you know, I see you're, you're traveling with your cane , um, would you, would you like some assistance or, or not?" And just respecting that, that choice , uh, that person's wishes of yes or no, or, you know, helping answer questions. Um, I do think that , um, you know, one thing I I've noticed when I've been traveling in airports is , um, I use Aira a lot to help navigate, which is a visual interpret interpreting service. And, you know, they'll be helping me get from one gate to another or something, and they'll say, okay, step slightly to your left or right. There's a group of people standing there and people are just standing in the middle of the hallway, walkway, <laugh> . And so, you know, if you do, you know, I know people are, we're all distracted by things, but you know, if you do hear someone with a cane or happen to see someone with a cane coming , um, you know, try to move out of the way if you can, because the person with a cane , um, probably will not see you. And , um, you will get a top on the foot or the ankle , um, if we pass by. So I think those are, are my tips. Um, one more thing I would also say is, please, please, please do not move a person's cane without asking them. Um, that's actually happened to me where someone's, you know, just again, is , you know, move the cane out of the way, and then it's like, where's my cane? Um, so again, just being respectful of that as an extension of the person and asking, you know, "Hey, I'm, we're, you know, I'm, you know, we're setting up this booth. Can I, you know, move your cane for now?" Or, you know, "is it possible to put your cane somewhere else so that we can to complete this task?" Those would be, those would be my , um, my pieces of advice.
Joe Hodge:So for me , um, I would say that, you know, don't, don't yell. So sometimes, like, I've been in a crowded area or in a public space, and I will be walking, and then all of a sudden, like, someone's like yelling, like, "stop, stop." And it , like, you almost think they're not talking to you because you're like, well, I don't know , that voice <laugh> . And then they come up and , uh, try to, you know , you know, touch you in some way. And , and it's very off-putting because you're, you know , um, you know, typically the cane's going to find whatever it is, say it's a wall or, or something. I mean , unless I'm gonna fall in a five foot hole or something , um, you know, I'd prefer to sort of figure it out myself. Um, but if I am just sitting there and, and maybe I look confused or, or there's nothing wrong with being polite and courteous and just saying, "Hey, you know , uh, would you like any assistance?" Or "can I assist you getting somewhere?" Or , or something like that. "Do you have any questions?" You know, just being, just being polite . I , but I think as Katie's kind of said , um, grabbing your cane or trying to physically move you , uh, 'cause sometimes people will actually try to push you or, or sort of shove you in a direction that they think you should be going , uh, which can be, again, disorienting. Um, those type of things. I, I would say, you know, please try not to do. Um, you know, I think just not necessarily putting yourself in that position, but just, you know, think about, you know, if you were, if you were like in a new environment, would you want someone doing the thing that you're going to do ? Uh, that you know that ? And if the answer's no, then probably you shouldn't do it. So , um, the, the cane for, I , I , I think most times like traveling with a cane, it's, it's, you know , um, the one, one thing I do encounter a lot is going through airports, like Katie said, the , the crowds of people just sort of standing in the middle. Um, if, if , you know, if you do see someone coming as she even , and , you know, said I would just move outta the way, but , um, sometimes it's hard. Um, and, you know, don't, I've had people overreact when I, when I bump them, you know, from time to time , uh, until they see it's a king <laugh>. So, or until they realize I can't see them. Um, so I , I I would just say , um, just, just treat people the way you'd wanna be treated. I think that would solve a lot of, of the problems,
Sara Brown:Which a lot of this is what, what you all just said, sort of segues right into the next question, some basic etiquette tips. So no yelling , um, no grabbing the cane , um, moving other way <laugh> is there anything else?
Joe Hodge:For other person. Yeah.
Kathryn Frederick:Right.
Sara Brown:Is there, is there, what else? What el what , what other etiquette tips would you wanna share with listeners?
Kathryn Frederick:I would say , um, this happens to me a lot is if I'm, I'm with say a friend or a colleague or someone who , um, if, if I'm with another person who is sighted, some people will ask the question, the she and , you know, referring to me mm-hmm . <affirmative> , um, instead of asking, you know , um, I mean, I think, I think in that situation, you know, maybe say, "oh, miss with I see your white cane , uh, would you like some coffee?" Or, you know, a way that I would know that you're speaking to me, but, but do speak to me, <laugh> , right? Um, you know, and, and speak directly to the person and, and talk in a normal tone of voice. You know, I, I don't need to be talked to like this. I'm really not fragile. Um, so, you know, just again, speaking in a normal tone of voice , um, keeping it conversational and, you know, if, if, again, if you do see someone and you're just not sure, say "hi, you know, I see you're traveling with your cane , um, is there, you know, is there any way I can assist you?" And just asking that question if you're not sure how to help. Um, you know, I think we're all used to, or most of us are used to, you know, we'd rather people ask than, than assume or, you know, try to do things for us. So , um, I think those are the, the tips that, that I would offer.
Joe Hodge:So just adding one more thing I think to that is don't assume that someone with a cane has someone with them. So I bring this up because I've been going to the doctor a lot for, for medical stuff, and a lot of times when I get there , uh, you know, I, I walk in with my cane. Uh, the person at the desk who usually hands you your paperwork says, "well, someone, is someone parking their car?" "Will they be in to help you fill out the paper?" "No, <laugh>, I'm here by myself." And then the same thing when I get done with the doctor's appointment, they'll, they'll be like, "is someone picking you up?" And it's sort of, I , I don't know, I I I , I , I get the sense that like, people don't assume, like, like if you're out with your cane, I I get this more with cane than I did with the dog, which is interesting. But I , I , I feel like , um, you know, don't assume that, you know, people aren't able to go from point A to point B with a cane. I think, I don't know, somehow that gets a little bit, I think, I think people kind of think that in the public setting sometimes.
Sara Brown:My last question, I always love to ask, because it , everybody tends to give the most in-depth statement. Is there anything else you would like to share about this topic?
Kathryn Frederick:Well, I think, I think Joe really summed it up best earlier. You know, treat people with, you know, if you see someone with a cane or another disability to treat them how you'd wanna be treated, would you want, you know, would you want someone grabbing you or trying to direct you where you think you should go or where they think you should go, or, you know, again, just, just treating others tr um, as you'd wanna be treated. Um, and, you know , um, I think I would also say, you know, I know we've talked about some ways to not provide help, but also if you do see someone who, you know, don't, don't be afraid to approach us, I guess I would also say to this is , is , you know, again, we are, we are people. We just navigate the world a bit differently.
Joe Hodge:Yeah. I like the way you you put that. Um, just touching on something I, I talked about briefly about just sort of the , uh, folks who may be losing vision that are listening to this podcast or, or folks that maybe know someone who's losing vision. I, I think the most thing, the most thing, if you could take away from what Kate and I have talked about is that, you know, using a cane, it's, it's a tool. It's not meant to be looked down upon. And I think, you know , uh, taking that sort of approach of this is my tool for independence , um, you know, this, this aids me in getting around. I think just having that confidence to, to get over that hurdle of, of getting out there , um, 'cause really, you know, being able to move around and be independent, it's gonna open up so many things for you, jobs, school friends, et cetera, that I , I think that's why the cane , you know, I don't always think of it as, as , um, you know, I don't always stop and think about the training and the, you know, all the things I've been through with it because it's just there, it kind of goes everywhere I go, right? It's different from a dog. I mean, you know, obviously the dog you're, you're training with, you, you're , you're with them for a , a short term . Um, but, you know, the cane has just kind of always been there in my life. And I think that the, the, the key takeaway that I would want people to leave is just, you know, don't be afraid to be yourself and, you know , uh, just go out there and, and be you. And, and for those folks who are listening to this, who are maybe , uh, light dependent, you know, can see , um, yeah, don't be afraid to ask , uh, us for help. Um, just, just, you know, understand that, you know, if I don't need help, that's great. If I do, that's awesome. So , uh, don't be afraid to, to ask. And if you have any questions, I , I mean, I love asking question, answering questions about, you know, how how do I do something, you know? Mm-hmm . <affirmative> , as long as it's not meant out of like , um, you know, to be insulting or something. But , uh, you know, I'm happy to, you know, whenever someone comes up and asks me, you know, how, you know, what do I see? Or, you know, just little things like that. It's , uh, it , it gets conversation starting and you just never know where that's gonna go. So.
Sara Brown:All right . Katie and Joe , thank you so much for coming on today and talking to me on Change Makers.
Kathryn Frederick:It's been great conversation. Thank you, Sara.
Joe Hodge:Thanks for having me, Sara.
Sara Brown:Now I have two guide dog users, Abby Hodge and Addie Tighe. They're here to talk about their experiences navigating the world. Hello, Abby and Addie , and welcome to Change Makers .
Abby Hodge:Thank you. I'm so glad to be here.
Addie Tighe:Thank you for having me.
Sara Brown:So would you like to introduce yourself and share what it is that you do in your profession?
Abby Hodge:Sure. I , uh, I'm Abby Hodge. I am the Braille Instructor , um, at our local , um, state, well, our state office for the Office of Vocational Rehabilitation. Um, I teach braille. I've been teaching braille for 12 years, 12 and a half years at this position. And , uh, I really love it. So I love teaching adults primarily to read again and it's the best, so,
Addie Tighe:Well, hi, I'm Addie Tai . I am a senior in college getting my English major and my creative writing minor. Um , I have interned for APH now for two summers and one little short stint of December. Um, but I've absolutely loved interning for the communications department , uh, Dot 6, at APH.
Sara Brown:Now tell me about your guide dogs .
Addie Tighe:Yeah, so I have a German Shepherd Guide dog named Dory. Uh, she's about four years old now, which is kind of crazy. I got matched with her back in June 21, so we've been together for two plus years now. Um, she's the best. I love her so much. Um, she's from Guiding Eyes to the Blind.
Sara Brown:Okay. Abby, what about you?
Abby Hodge:My dog. My, my third dog's name is Oakley and he's the class graduate of Guiding Eyes in January, 2023. So just had to plug that in there.
Sara Brown:Can you talk about your experience using a guide dog to navigate the world?
Addie Tighe:So I was a cane user from like age 10 or 11 when my vision started to become like more of a hindrance to my independence. Um, and I used a cane my first year of college, and switching to a guide dog has really transformed the way that I walk. I've always been a pretty fast walker, but I walk with a lot more confidence now. Um, a cane will tell you to learn stuff about your environment. The cane has to hit it, so I won't know some things there unless my cane like runs into the lamppost or a brick wall or something like that. Dory will just walk me around that, which has been like a game changer. It is so nice to not have to constantly be worrying about what I might run into, who I might run into. Um, it is taking the stress out of walking and makes it so that I can just enjoy, like, you know, if it's a nice day out, I can enjoy the nice day and think like, oh , it feels so good to be outside and just have a lot less stress when moving around.
Sara Brown:Okay. Abby, what are your thoughts?
Abby Hodge:It's a really fun , um, independent, freeing experience. I've had dogs for 20 years and , um, you know, there's just something really, really amazing about just navigating. You don't run into stuff anymore. You can tell the dog left or right and the dog memorizes where you need to go once you do the route enough. And , um, companionship , um, you know, yeah, there's a lot to, you know, you have more responsibilities, but it's the companionship, the love, the friendship that you build with your dog and, and , um, just knowing that they've got your back and knowing that you're not just depending on someone else or another mo you know, another mode of travel is , is just you can you work as a team and, and that's just what the Guide Dog experience is about.
Sara Brown:And now we're talking about blindness etiquette. Yeah . What are some of those experiences you've encountered using a guide dog ? Both good and bad. Mm-hmm .
Abby Hodge:<affirmative> , well , um, let's see. I've had more good than bad. Um, a lot of times, roughly when I lived in Atlanta, Georgia for my first job, I had my first dog, 'cause I'm on dog number three. Um, I would oftentimes , um, get asked if he b if, if she bites. And I said, "well, no," you know, a lot of uneducation. And I said, no, well , you know, she has teeth. I mean, she can bite it , but she would never bite. Um, uh, a lot of times, just in general , um, I would get denied access on Uber or Lyft because of my dogs. Um, that's , uh, that's always frustrating. Um, uh, you know, one time I had someone on a bus, I was so, they were so scared of my dog when I would come out , um, to, by the driver to go towards the door to get off the bus, she let off the break and, and the bus went rolling while my dog and I were trying to exit the bus because she was just so scared. So it's, it's the , it's the fear of the dog that, you know, makes, it's just not, it's not fun because you're, you need to be protecting your dog, you know? Um, as the fear is happening, as the, you know, as things like that happen, the good experiences really outweigh the bad because , um, I've traveled abroad with dogs number one and dog number three. Um, I have been fortunate to work dogs number one and two, you know, 10 years or more. Um, we've, I've been able to be confident enough to go on conferences to just go in a mall and not fumble around trying to run into stuff. And , um, you also, I also spark up a lot of conversation with strangers about the dogs. Um, and it's just more fun because sometimes , um, we were in Austria, my first dog and I studying abroad, and we were in like a botanical garden and um, Alice led me up, my first dog led me up on, on a ledge, and I'm like, "oh, what is this? Is this a cool plant?" But it wasn't, it was a water fountain. And she said, "well, I'm gonna go swimming." And she proceeded to hop up into the fountain and just have herself a good time. Oh my gosh. So the only thing I did was I took the harness off and told her to go at it. Little did I know that the signs were in German, they said "no pets allowed." Well, you know, sorry, <laugh> , sorry. But , um, gosh , <laugh> . So , um, she , uh, she just had herself a grand time and I was saying, I went back to the train station and I was like, "you're such a good girl. I'm such a good girl." And this inebriated person said, "are you stupid or is the dog stupid?" I'm like, ah , nah , whatever. We're just having some doggy fun, you know? Um, so she, I took her back actually that same day and just let her have at the , because it was really hot over there that year. And then she just had a great time. And then , uh, my second dog , um, we were flying to D. C. for something and he <the pilot> loved him so much that after everyone deplaned, he wanted my dog to get into the cockpit with him. And so as little as the cockpit is, he had to have my, my Bancroft there and the cockpit with him, and he had to have a picture. Um, so obviously the good outweigh the bad and, and your family, you know, they don't, my family, they're like, "Ooh, I don't know about dogs." You know, my mom especially, she's like, "I don't want a dog in the house." And by Christmas she was smitten with the first dog and she now has a dog of her own and loves it. So a dog really changes your perspective. And, and , uh, I've just had a blast traveling with my two, and I've so far had a blast with dog number three, and so far we're new into our partnership, so , um, about eight months in and , um, we've already been to Canada.
Sara Brown:Okay . Addie , what about you?
Addie Tighe:Um, I think for the most part, I would say they're mostly positive. Um, most people will , will just kind of ignore her , um, and let us walk around or , um, I've been told that people will try to like, move out of our way, which has been really helpful. Um, because sometimes dogs aren't humans, so they don't always know, like etiquette <laugh>. So there have been times Dory like pulled me or like, in front of someone, or I didn't realize that I was cutting someone off, but I, I of course couldn't see and she didn't realize that that's rude. Um , but for the most part, people, you know, they keep a nice, like give a space and don't try to distract her. But there's always the handful of people that don't do that. Um, a lot of problems I'll have is if she's in a down or a sit somewhere, like in class, I guess, because we're not like physically walking, people think that she's not working and that's not true. If she has her harness on, she, she is in work mode. She is not in like, "I'm a dog mode." So there are people who come up to her and we'll just pet her without asking, which is really frustrating. Um, people will like call her name while we're walking, which can really distract her. Um, and that can be pretty dangerous for me 'cause that is the moment where I need her focus the most is when we're walking, especially if we're crossing a street or something. So overwhelmingly positive, but still it , you can't, I can't deny that there has been issues with people thinking that dogs are somehow like just free domain and <laugh> you can talk to or pet that dog anytime you want .
Sara Brown:Now what do you want people to know when they see someone using a guide dog? You know, "don't touch the dog" clearly. Yeah . Um, "move out of the way." "Do you know you don't always need assistance?" What are some of those things you want people to know?
Addie Tighe:Um, I would say a big one is that like, just don't acknowledge the dog. So it's different if you're, like, I have people come up to me all the time, especially in stores and I'll be like, you know, trying to figure out which, you know, loaf of bread I'm going to buy. And they'll come up to me and Dory and they'll go like, "oh, I know I'm not supposed to pet you, but you're just so cute." If you know that <laugh>, "what are you doing?" Um, just don't, like, like you wouldn't acknowledge someone's else's mobility aid. Like no one ever really acknowledged my cane. And I understand that a dog is a little bit more sentient than a cane, but , um, just let the dog work and stop trying to like, get the dog's attention. Um, another big one is that like, that includes like eye contact. Um , Dory is getting a lot better at it, but especially when she was younger, if people would look her in the eyes, she would get so excited. And I don't know why like I <laugh> , I guess it was like she thought that that meant that they were gonna play with her or something, but that excitement was really like a hindrance to our work. So just leave the dog in person alone. Um, another really big one is that please acknowledge the person before you ever acknowledge the dog. Like, there are some times where it is appropriate to acknowledge that I have my guide dog or that to ask me how she's doing or something along those lines. But I very recently, at the start of this semester, had someone come and sit down at the table I was sitting at and she goes, can we sit with Dory? And I was like, no, you can sit with me <laugh> . So , uh, the person comes before the dog , so please, like, I don't know if you're gonna take the time to remember my dog's name, please. Maybe also remember my name <laugh> Say , you know , just a little.
Sara Brown:Yeah , my goodness. <laugh> , that's highly insulting too.
Addie Tighe:Yeah, a little bit <laugh> . It's kind of funny now, but in the moment I was like, "no way. You just said that."
Sara Brown:Abby, what do you think?
Abby Hodge:Well, when the guide dog's in harness never, I, I I would say don't approach. If you do and you ask to pet the dog, I say, "no, as long, no, as long as he is got the harness on, no one gets to pet him. He's working." That's what it means. Even if he's in a down stay , he's still working. If he's sitting, he's working. Uh, when the , and you and like with little kids, if I'm sitting somewhere and they're , they come up and ask, now I will say, well, you know, normally, you know, he's working. Um, but you did come up and ask really nicely. Now , sometimes I'll be a little lenient and let him pet his head, but , um, most of the time I would just prefer if people just see me and just if they say, hi, cute dog, I'll say thank you and move on. Um , uh, so , um, just to remember that these aren't pets and they, you know, don't, if they're in harness and you see that, don't engage with the dog . The dog needs to be focused on their , what they're doing and that's guiding. And if you do say something to the dog that distracts 'em from what they're supposed to be doing, even if it's it's , it's a slight head turn to the left or right, could run us into something or a person or it could get us hurt or, and definitely, definitely definitely don't engage the dog or the person when you're on the street corner. I had that happen a couple weeks ago. And um, that just messes everything up because you're trying to listen to traffic and you've gotta keep yourself stay safe in the street as well as your dog. So, you know, if you see them in harness and you know, just don't, I don't know , they're working. So, you know, just kinda don't engage with a dog at all. You know, it's just a no-no. Yeah,
Sara Brown:Yeah.
Abby Hodge:Just remember that, you know, and be , you know, some people get offended if they ask and you don't say, "no, you can't pet the dog." Some people do get offended, but, oh well, you know, they're not pets and um, you know , if they're being good, that's fine. But the harness just means that they're doing a job, they have a job to do and we're not being mean when we say don't pet, but you know, we're being, it's our safety. These are our eyes , you know,
Sara Brown:No 100% agree. 100% agree. Do you have any basic etiquette tips you wanna share with listeners? Just basic things. Do you know if they see you coming with your dog? Is there anything you think they should do?
Abby Hodge:Uh , well if I'm, if I'm coming down the hallway or down a sidewalk and they're , I hear people I'll, you know, "I'll say , I'll try to figure out where they are." If they say, oh, sorry, we're on your right. Or if someone's passing me, just say, and a lot of people do this, "Hey, on your left." You know, just so I know. 'cause sometimes , um, if I gesture for my dog to, for Oakley to go left or right, sometimes if I don't, if I'm on a crowded sidewalk, which doesn't really happen a lot, but sometimes it does, I'll tap a person like, "oh sorry." You know , um, especially if the sidewalk is narrow , um, just tell me where you are. If I don't, you know, if , especially if, if I'm coming up fast and there's not a a lot of room for my dog to clear and usually there is, but just tell me where you are. Um, if , uh, you're, if we're, you know , on the same side of the hallway, you know, just kind of be verbal about it, you know? Um, and usually people are pretty good about, about that or you know , um, let's see. Um, just be courteous and you know, let us around you if, if, if we need to or you ask if you can go around us and that way I can pull the dog to the side and we can kind of stop and let you go around if you need to, you know , um, still don't engage while we're moving, you know, <laugh> with the dog. So don't try to reach out and pet it while he is working. 'cause while we're moving, especially we're walking around that, that's, that's not good. Don't throw things on the ground. 'cause my dog is a little bit of a scavenger and all dogs are I bet. So, you know, I've had that happen a little bit too, where people just throw things down and, you know, while we're walking, he'll just pick it up, you know, a dog. So just be courteous of that.
Sara Brown:Alright , Addie, what do you have to say?
Addie Tighe:Um, understand that if you're walking next to a person with a guide dog , uh, that, that , at least my dog, maybe she's weird, but I'm pretty sure it is, at least through the school that I went through the training is that they still stay on the left. So try to maybe walk on my right shoulder. Dory cannot stand if someone's walking on the left side of her. And again, this could be something that's just my dog, but traditionally if you're walking with someone with a guide dog to give the dog as much like control and of their situation so that they understand what's going on, you wanna walk a little bit like off to the right and a little bit like a half step behind. So that way that dog's not thinking that you're an obstacle or that the dog's not thinking that, like they're also guiding you, but just try to stay off the left. Um, Dory will straight up, and again, I don't know if every dog will do this, but if someone starts walking on my left and is like dory's in between us, she will navigate me around so that I <laugh> the one in the middle. She will not stand for walking in the middle or on the right.
Sara Brown:Wow. Dory's. So smart <laugh>. And before we go, is there anything else you'd like to say about buying a etiquette or navigating with a guide dog? Anything?
Abby Hodge:Um, no. I mean , uh, I'd say , um, just , um, let us be, you know , we're aware of our surroundings and just , um, find a etiquette . Just ask if we need help, you know, don't just come up and grab the harness. Don't, don't do that. Uh, don't grab the leash either, you know , uh, just ask if we need assistance before, assuming that we need help. And if we need help, we will gladly show you how to navigate, help us, you know, help you to help us, you know, so if I'm, I'm getting assistance from you as a , as a person and I've got my dog, I'll say, I'll just follow you if you just keep talking to me. Just, and especially if we're in a really cloudy, crowded area, like a restaurant or something. I'm my either my dog might follow you, but there's people everywhere, right? So , um, just keep talking and I will follow and, and um , you know , um, and if I don't need the help then you know, that's okay.
Sara Brown:Okay. Addie, what do you have to say?
Addie Tighe:Guide dogs are not machines. Um, so guide dogs are going to make mistakes and that does not mean that the dog is a bad dog. Um, but that also means that like, because they are imperfect, that's why distraction's such a big deal. And that's why a lot of guide dog users are so like, intense with our like rules and when we're allowed to like let you pet the dog and things like that. We're not trying to be mean, we're not trying to like gate keep our dog or something like that. But distraction can be life threatening, especially when you're someone like, I can't see what's going on. I'm trusting Dory 100% of the time, especially when we're crossing streets to not let me get hit by a car. And if she's distracted because you're trying to pet her or you're calling her name, or something along those lines that like really does put my life at risk. And so that's why people with, you know, guide dogs are so intense about like, "please don't distract them." We're not trying to be mean, we are just trying to, you know, have a little bit of self-preservation, <laugh> . Um, and we just understand that our dogs are going to make mistakes. You know, if there's a squirrel running across the street, my dog is going to be interested in that. There's already so many variables I can't control. That's why I ask others to just be more cognizant of their behavior and so that way I don't have distractions that are unnecessary.
Sara Brown:Thank you so much Abby and Addie for joining me on Change Makers .
Addie Tighe:Thank you for having me.
Kathryn Frederick:Yeah, no problem. It's fun. I've always loved to , to plug my school and to talk about dogs. It's, it's fun.
Sara Brown:<laugh> . I have also put links to the Kentucky Office of Vocational Rehabilitation in the show notes. As always, be sure to look for ways you can be a change maker this week.