All About Be My Eyes: Part 2

On this episode of Change Makers, we’re diving deeper into the world of Be My Eyes. Hear directly from the creator of this groundbreaking app and discover how it can help you navigate and troubleshoot your everyday tech gadgets with confidence. 

On this episode

• Narrator
• Sara Brown, APH Public Relations Manager
• Hans Jørgen Wiberg, Founder of Be My Eyes

Transcript

Narrator: 0:00

Welcome to Changemakers, a podcast from APH. We're talking to people from around the world who are creating positive change in the lives of people who are blind or have low vision. Here's your host.

Sara Brown: 0:15

Hello, and welcome to Changemakers. I'm APH's public relations manager at Blender. And today we're continuing our conversation with Dan Jordan Reaper, the creator of BMI. Here's how you can use B My Eyes when publishing health with well-known companies. Let's get back to that interview. Surprises or unexpected ways people have used B My Eyes that you might not have anticipated.

Hans Jørgen Wiberg: 0:45

Well, we have a ton of uh stories. Um we we had a uh a guy who was uh this is kind of close to me. Uh he was uh an old farmer uh and he still had some uh chickens uh and and he was using B My Eye to make sure he was feeding the chicken the right uh chicken food uh and so on. And I just that that's kind of uh I I love that story. Um what I didn't like was, and that's why I how I found out because he was also uh moving his tracks a little bit, and then he was using the volunteer to see if he would run into something and say, uh we you cannot do that. So uh but then we uh I had this conversation with this guy, and and um so um and also um I remember there was a uh lady in in Washington, um Washington, DC, I think it was, um, and uh she was um making a be my eyes call uh because she was uh singing in in a choir uh and they were having kind of a concert or something. Uh so she was uh asking, hey, I need to make sure that I have my black shoes on. Uh and then uh the volunteer uh said, Oh, are you singing in the choir? I'm also singing in choir. Uh and then they forgot about the black shoes and start talking about uh what they were singing and so on. And it ended up that um the uh the volunteer who was from Ireland, um, she said, uh, would you like to hear uh my choir sing? Uh that would be nice. And then because uh we are actually having our uh weekly evening uh with the choir and the so and then uh they were singing uh for this lady in Washington, and uh uh apparently they they did get back to the black shoes and and um and all that. Um it may be a little strange story, but but I just love this um also again, human interaction that would never have happened with uh an AI uh generated. Uh I hope not, at least. Um and just these um connections and and stories, and uh suddenly it was not the one person being blind, it was about uh, hey, you are singing and I'm singing, and we are having a fun time doing that. Uh, and and they had a wonderful conversation about that. Um and uh yeah, uh so um all these uh stories. Also, uh I remember there was uh an old uh electrician uh who was rewiring his house using uh be my eyes. Uh he knew exactly what he was doing, he just needed to know is it blue or red? And then he needed uh he knew what to do with the wire. Um, and um I'm not sure if he rewired the whole house, but at least he did some uh uh wiring uh using uh be my eyes. Um and and um and and he I mean he would not have been doing that if he could not right in that moment call a volunteer and get those 20 seconds uh assistance. Um and uh yeah, uh so uh it's just wonderful that some people dare do something they wouldn't do otherwise. Um, or uh and um he could also went uh wait till his uh uh son came around, but then he the son would most likely do the wiring and and he loved to do what he had been doing all life. Um, but because of the blindness, he was not really able to do it basically outside his own house. Um so um and he had a great time doing that. Uh so that's the kind of stories I I try to remember and and and collect and and uh love that that B MyS can play a little role in in somebody's life doing that. So yeah.

Sara Brown: 4:51

And you know, I feel like it just reinforces that human connection, you know.

Hans Jørgen Wiberg: 4:57

Yeah, the two singers. And also um, I mean, um especially if if you grow blind uh in when you are older. Um I mean you you have so many uh skills, uh, and if it just takes a little bit of sight to get back into that uh uh habit, um, then it's wonderful that that you can do it uh in this way. So yeah.

Sara Brown: 5:27

So you've essentially built a global community. This app has volunteers from all over the world. Has building a global community changed your perspective on accessibility?

Hans Jørgen Wiberg: 5:41

Uh yes. Um I was at uh the World Blind Union, uh, the uh General Assembly in uh Sao Paulo in Brazil a few months ago. And um and that was a very sobering experience uh because you speak to someone uh in Africa uh and hey, what are you fighting for? Uh hey, we are fighting to have uh uh white canes, so we can afford to have white canes, and and uh we are fighting for uh not being uh um looked down at just because we are blind and uh hey, I'm from Denmark, and we have uh we can get all the white canes we want, and so and um so um just being introduced to sitting across uh the table with someone who is in a total different situation and and have some uh uh is fighting for things that we take for granted in in uh in Denmark and and maybe also in the US um and so on. It's uh that's that's a really yeah sobering uh experience. Uh and I have the deepest respect for uh these blindness organizations that are trying to talk to uh governments in in countries that are maybe uh corrupt and and uh and and simply don't have much money. Uh even though if there was um people who really want to help and so on, uh it it's uh it's not always easy to find the money in a budget uh when there's some so much to be done uh to help the blind people. Um so um uh it's not that I didn't know that, but meeting real people and talking about it, uh that made made a difference uh in my uh in my life. Uh it does. Uh and and uh I'm so grateful that that I had the chance to to talk to these people uh and and hear their story firsthand. Uh so yeah.

Sara Brown: 7:52

Absolutely. It's really interesting when you read about something, and you might hear about it, but when you get to those stories and meet those individuals up close, it really does alter your your perspective and your whoa, this is really happening, or this is really real. When you hear about it, it's like that's what is the 30,000-foot view. You know, you're it's still it's so far removed, but when you hear and you meet those people. Now, as founder, as the founder, what have you learned about leadership, patience, and perseverance?

Hans Jørgen Wiberg: 8:24

Well, um patience. Uh uh as as my uh CTO says, ideas are cheap, uh, but making them uh real, that that's the hard part. And um so we have a we have a ton of ideas, and and uh we have to uh be very um clear-eyed what will this really uh uh help uh anyone and can we afford to do it and how long time will it take? And and um uh and also um uh just because I am the founder doesn't mean that I have the best ideas. Uh so um I am fighting with the other uh team members to to make my idea part of the roadmap and so on. Um, but I have also um and I have never been the CEO because I'm simply not a CEO type. Um uh I love to talk to people, uh, but I'm not like a fundraising uh type of person. Um and and uh though I have been uh blessed with some wonderful CEOs uh through the times. Um and uh and I'm very grateful that they take care of uh the the basic the leadership and and uh I sometimes I joke about that uh uh they do the work and I take the credit. And so um but we have we have a totally amazing team, uh both here in Denmark, and we have people in the UK and we have uh people in the US. So we have uh a ton of uh uh team meetings and uh the uh uh Zoom and whatever. Um, and um and I just enjoy being uh part of this team. Um my my daily job uh in BMIs is um and I'm super happy about that. My my job is to answer uh the tickets we get, the emails we get. Uh people can send uh feedback, and then uh I am the person uh who is the first person opening uh all our tickets, and then uh if if I can answer them myself, I do that. Otherwise, I will send them to the tech team or the marketing or whatever, uh, who can then uh help me uh answer those tickets. But what I really love about it is that I get the people telling me uh stories. Uh sometimes they complain about uh something uh and uh they have ideas to how we could improve and so on. But it's just um it's just so wonderful to read the stories firsthand from those people who are uh uh sending in. And that's both uh blind people, but also volunteers who are just excited. Hey, I helped this uh blind person do something, uh, and then they tell me what it was, and and so on. Um, and uh so yeah, I very much enjoyed that that uh that part of nobody wants to do uh support, uh, but uh I love it.

Sara Brown: 11:29

So no, we're doing what you love, that it's not really work then. Now, what advice would you give to other social entrepreneurs who want to use technology for good?

Hans Jørgen Wiberg: 11:42

Well, I think I have kind of already said it because uh nothing about us without us, that is our North Star. Uh and and and I cannot say it enough. Uh, it is so, so important that you involve the the people you are doing something for. Uh and um I have said this many times. Uh every two weeks I I get an email from from somebody who has an idea, and I always reply back. Involve someone who uh who you want to help, because you would learn you will learn a ton, and it will be scary. Uh uh, but it will be so much easier to straighten out the misunderstandings now and and and uh so involve um and also um have a team around you. Um some people think they can maybe they can uh do it on their own. Um but for me, it has been absolutely amazing to have a team of people who were different than me, who had other other uh opinions and uh other experiences and so on. Uh we are five blind people working for B My Eyes, and we are very different. And uh uh uh we have uh our blind group meeting once a week and and we uh discuss uh everything, and then uh we we we kind of uh agree on stuff, and then we say this is what the blind group has agreed on. Uh, but I can tell you there is uh discussion before before we get to that point, and and we we all get smarter and and uh we realize hey, uh I didn't think about that that angle to it. Um and it's very different when you, as me, kind of grow blind when you are uh in your 60s, or if you have been uh blind from birth and and and so on. Um that's a different, very different experience. And and um uh also being uh young um uh is uh a different thing than uh learning uh technology uh later in your life and so on. So we are so happy that we, I'm so happy that we have a very different uh blindness group within the the B My Eyes so we can tell the developers uh one of our blind people is also a developer. That's also a great benefit. Um, so yeah.

Sara Brown: 14:18

How do you see Be My Eyes evolving in the next five years?

Hans Jørgen Wiberg: 14:24

Um I have no idea what we're doing on Monday. So five years that's I love it. But um AI will be uh a big part of what we are doing. Um and uh we have now we have a partnership with Meta. Uh so you can now use uh Be My Eyes uh on their uh Meta glasses. Uh I'm I'm super excited about that. Um simply because um there has been there are other solutions where you can use glasses with a camera in and so on. Um, but so far they have been extremely expensive. Uh a pair of metaglasses you can buy for I think $300 or something. Um, and that's also a lot of money, uh, but it is not like $2,000 that some of the other options were at. Um and the glasses and AI together, I think that will be a really, really powerful solution. Uh and already now uh I can put on my glasses and I can just say, hey Meta, and then I say be my eyes, and then the glasses will make a call to one of our volunteers who will be looking uh out of the camera. Um, and I can say uh hey Meta, look and describe, and then the glasses will take a photo and give me an AI description of what I'm looking at. And uh I believe that AI will also be helping us navigating, uh, and it will uh eventually it will also be able to kind of, hey, I'm looking for, tell me when you see it. Um that's we are not there yet, uh at least not in uh an affordable uh uh solution or vision. Um, but I believe that will be something we can do. Um and and even though uh even if you don't have uh the money to pay for the the glasses, uh we are also working on making the phone app uh uh voice driven. So hopefully you will be able to tell Siri to start Be My Eyes, and then a voice will say, uh, hey, I'm your BMI's assistant, how can I help you? And then you can say, Hey, uh uh what's in front of me, and then uh the phone will take a picture and give you a description, or you can say, call one of those uh amazing uh be my eyes volunteers, and then uh the phone will uh call a volunteer. Um, and so we hope that it will be super, super easy, even for someone who is 90 years old and and um uh uh to to use technology simply because it will be able to understand what you mean when you say something. Um and we're not there yet, uh, but I feel we are getting closer. Um and and that's one of the things that I really hope we can uh we can do within, I don't know, the next few years, uh not five years before that, but uh yeah.

Sara Brown: 17:49

Okay, and are there any other areas of accessibility technology that you're excited about or think are ready for innovation?

Hans Jørgen Wiberg: 17:59

Well, um I am excited about um how many projects around navigation. Um and um I I don't really think anyone uh have really cracked it yet, but uh with so many people working on this, uh I think we are uh about to see something that is really interesting and useful and hopefully uh safe to use. Uh because that is it's amazing how many uh navigation for blind people projects you can uh if you google it, that is around. Um both in Europe and and in the US and and so on, um, and uh super smart uh concept. Uh somebody is having something on the wrist, and uh I have just tried something you put in your to your shoes, and uh uh something is built into the glasses, and um so um is it ready for prime time? Maybe not quite, but I kind of feel we we are getting closer. Um but then again, as we we spoke about before, we should never forget that most blind people in this world they don't have access to expensive glasses or expensive iPhones and and and so on. So we we we absolutely need to make sure that whatever we build can also run on uh a cheap uh Android uh uh phone and and maybe not uh using uh uh total uh bandwidth uh and and so on. Um and and um and that is kind of a balance which we need to be aware of. Um of course we we need to develop and and see how much can we push the technology, uh, but we should always remember that not. everybody is so fortunate so they can uh use uh then used iPhone and so on. Yeah absolutely true now what are your thoughts on how governments and tech companies and individuals can better support accessibility on a global scale i have realized that accessibility is a constant fight it's like democracy uh you can never take it for granted you can uh win something uh and then suddenly it's not there anymore because uh somebody updated something or uh somebody in the municipality made a decision to change the road or change the bus line or um uh and and suddenly you you you don't have access to uh what you used to have access to and and and so on. So what I have learned is that it is a constant fight or struggle or campaign or um and also with our fellow human beings um you are always um the one who needs to uh educate other people um in a nice way of course um but and this is it's not because people are evil or uh they just have never met a blind person before and and hey how how do I do this and and so on and and some are comfortable uh in a hey that sounds interesting uh how can I help you and so and and other people uh kind of uh try to uh run away or something um but it is on uh us as blind low vision people to educate our fellow citizens about being blind and and how they can easily uh assist us so so we can uh live in in the same world and and and uh and enjoy um yeah life basically um but it it's um it never goes away um and it it it's constant um yeah so that's that's kind of my learning and what kind of world do you hope be my eyes will help create not just for people who are who are blind or low vision but for society as a whole one of the things that uh I don't talk that much about but I'm really really proud about is that when uh people read about be my eyes on Facebook and then they say hey I can do that and then they download the app uh they have no clue uh about being blind or they just say oh that that was cool that was a great idea or something like that and then they download the app and then they pretty much forget about it and one day they get a call and oh that's a B My Eyes app and then they oh uh and then uh some blind person is asking how to turn on the washing machine or something and in that moment this volunteer who has never thought about washing machines they realize hey a washing machine is not accessible um how come there isn't a small speaker in a washing machine that can't be right and suddenly we have ambassadors out there who suddenly say hey hey we need to do something about this can't be right that black people cannot uh start their own washing machine without uh assistance or something like that uh you need to put a five dollar speaker into this machine and so on um and uh and that is kind of a byproduct of BMI but but because so many people are using b MyS and and so many volunteers sign up then um I I hope that uh that BMI has been uh yeah making new politeness ambassadors out there who uh maybe vote a little differently uh than they otherwise would do um um and I'm not talking about any specific countries now uh but but but uh sometimes you need to uh experience something uh yourself before you you really realize uh what the issue is um maybe you have seen a blind person on the street a hundred times uh and never thought about hey uh how does this person uh really do when he is in his home alone um and um when I realized that uh this was going on I was kind of hey that I never thought about that that part of it um so I I hope that yeah be my eyes uh together with a ton of other uh uh apps and so on will uh make the world a little bit uh better over time uh and in in more than one way not just helping the blind people but also kind of helping shaping the the uh the narrative about uh being blind and so on yeah you know as an individual who has cited this being in this world has opened my eyes you're right I I I did not until I started working at APH I didn't know I I you know I didn't really have any interaction with any individuals who were blind or low vision.

Sara Brown: 25:38

So coming here and learning about what's not accessible from everyday things like the microwave or the washing machine um just changes changes everything it changes your perspective and now I'm alt text simple alt text on images or a PDF is not accessible. I didn't know that until I started working here. And when you when you know better you do do a bit better. And now I'm one of the biggest advocates of you know accessibility you know make sure this has alt text is that high contrast make sure it's great you know it's just in it's just when you when you're in this world and you learn and you know you and you carry that with you forever.

Hans Jørgen Wiberg: 26:20

And and now you say uh PDF um one of the things that we are also working on right now is uh something we call uh be my eyes workplace uh and that is a be my eyes version uh that you have on your uh PC or Mac. Um so when you are at work you can if we get it to work um uh you you can press two keys and then you get a description of the screen um and you can press two other keys and then you can have the uh PDF described that you have uh download downloaded um and then there's another key uh where you can um share your screen with one of your work colleagues um or you can even have one of your work colleagues take over your uh computer but everything within a security security uh circle basically uh within the company so you don't share any company uh information with other people um and um and also uh uh I mean in in BMI's we use uh Slack as a uh internal tool uh and sometimes um some of my colleagues they uh we have this uh channel called random um and then uh they find a a funny meme or something uh and then they just post it and forget that we have blind people in B MyEyes and uh but then I can just press uh those two keys and then I can get a description of uh of the meme um and and that means that that I can kind of be part of also the the the uh the joking part of uh of uh of be my eyes without uh having to uh take my uh phone out and take a picture of the screen and so on. I can just hit those two keys and then uh I'm in on on the fun part as well. And um and and it only takes like a few seconds before I get a wonderful description of that meme. And sometimes it even explains uh why it is funny which I'm pretty impressed about. So um and and that also uh integrates me more into uh a workplace because uh I also get access to the the thing that is not work related but is very much a part of being a part of a uh workplace uh being a a colleague that knows uh hey this guy over there he also always put uh posts uh funny memes or whatever um and and so you can kind of you are in on the conversation in the lunch lunch break and so on um and uh I I think that's also something that we are super excited about. Um so yeah any ideas to as to when that might launch uh I should not say this but um uh just give me a early just give me a season early next year okay yeah yeah no it it just uh um I have also learned that uh things always take longer time than I uh expected so but but but so so so please be respectful about that no but I was like this just give me a season now before I let you go my final question I always like to ask is is there anything else you would like to discuss or share well um I realized that we have not talking been talking about how we make BMIs uh a sustainable business all right well yeah and and uh we decided actually the very first weekend uh the startup weekend we decided that be my i should be a free service uh and it is today uh and it will always be um and um the reason we decided that was because we uh we realized that 90% of the blind people in this world they live in uh what we call the global south um and we realized that uh most likely uh a lot of those people will not be able to afford a monthly subscription uh $10 or something like that. Um so we needed to find another way of making BMI's a uh a business that could keep running. And what we came up with was uh something we call service directory uh where you can uh it is an uh a tab in in the BMIs app where you can go in and you can find uh different uh blindness organizations um and you can find companies like Google Microsoft Spotify LinkedIn Proxy and Gamble Fields on hotels and a number of other uh big companies and then when you have an issue with say a Microsoft or Google uh product you can use BMI to call their support line and then they know it's a blind person calling so they can route the call to those agents who take all the calls from BMIs. And this makes it a lot easier for Microsoft and Google and the other companies to support their blind customers simply because the agent who get the call knows about what a know about what a screen reader is and so on instead of all the other agents who have no clue about being blind or what a screen reader is or anything. But because the calls are coming through uh BMI uh we can uh direct them to the right agent and that brings me to um that uh Microsoft and Google and the other companies they are so happy about this so they are willing to pay BMI a monthly subscription uh to be on our platform sometimes we we laugh a little bit about that one of the smallest companies in the world be my we have uh companies like Google and Microsoft and those companies as our uh customers uh basically um um and uh microsoft were the very first be my i's customer which is which is kind of insane to think about uh because they are I don't know 50 000 people or something and we are like 30 um uh which I think is pretty big uh but um compared to the other other companies we like uh uh hardly existing um but we help them be a better company for their blind customers um and um and and be my eyes has um and I'm very proud to say this has grown into be uh um I think the biggest uh community of blind people in the world um so it also makes sense for for those companies to to partner up with BMI's uh and and have their support be better through uh our system so yeah wow that is absolutely major thank you those those are power players so congratulations and that's really great and that really benefits the the be my eyes users to be able to contact Microsoft through the through you all and get routed to somebody who knows what a screen reader is how who knows how to you know use those devices yeah and that is how we can keep be my eyes running so uh people uh in all countries I mean we we we help uh we assist people in 185 different languages um and and uh in uh countries we we hardly know the name of um and and um um so um but because we have those uh partnerships we we can have the service running for free uh for everybody who who want to use it and um and yeah you can use it as much as you want also the AI part uh which is not entirely free for us to provide um uh I mean we don't have to pay the volunteers uh but we do have to pay uh some money for uh the the AI service um but because we have the other uh offerings uh then we are able to also provide that as a a free service now if somebody did want to troubleshoot and contact Microsoft how would one go about using be my eyes to do so well you uh you open the Be My Eyes app and then in the uh the bottom of your screen there is a number of tabs uh one of them is uh get support and uh the next one is be myai and then I think it is number three that's called uh service directory uh and then you tap on that one and then uh there will be a long list of companies and then you can find uh if it is technical or uh travel or uh all kind of uh different um options you have there and then you've you've yeah just follow the the buttons uh on the screen that is remarkable that is that is such a that is such a great feature to have all right hands thank you so much for coming on Changemakers and talking to me today thank you so much for having me great question I put links in the show notes to the Be My Eyes website and links to download be my eyes to your phone did you have any questions about this podcast or topic suggestions send them my way by sending me an email thank you so much for this change