Steal This 3-Part Framework to Keep Your Listeners Engaged | Jimi Gibson

Most podcast hosts focus on teaching something valuable, but valuable content isn't what keeps listeners listening. And when attention drops halfway through an episode, listeners stop caring about what you say next. 

TedX speaker and professional magician Jimi Gibson is breaking down why listeners mentally check out of episodes (even when you’re giving great info), the common mistakes that make people skip ahead or click away from your episode, and the psychological framework behind opening hooks, vocal delivery, and CTA transitions that keeps listeners hanging on for what comes next.

If you want listeners staying locked into your episodes from your opening hook to your CTA, hit play and let’s dive in.

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2:35 – The 3-Part Hook Formula That Makes Listeners That Makes Listeners Stay Past The First 30 Seconds

6:16 – The Hyper-Specific Opening That Sounds Like You’re Reading Your Listener’s Mind

10:52 – The Curiosity Loop Structure That Keeps Listeners Listening Longer

19:29 – The CTA Transition Framework That Keeps Your Pitch From Feeling Salesy

22:42 – The Simple Vocal Shifts That Pull Distracted Listeners Back Into the Conversation

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Episode Links:

Meet Jimi Gibson: Website | LinkedIn

Watch Jimi’s TEDx Talk: You Have Magic Power: Use It For Good

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Other Episodes You’ll Love: 

The Podcasting Psychology Behind Shows Listeners Can’t Stop Listening To

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:02

If you've taken a look at your listener retention recently and you've noticed that your listeners are dropping off anywhere from halfway to two-thirds of the way into your episodes, then you are one of the 95% of podcasters who experience this problem. And the good news is it's fixable when you know what to look for. I'm excited to be back in the studio with Jimmy Gibson, a TEDx speaker and former professional magician who is going to hand you a three-part framework that you can use starting today to keep listeners mentally engaged throughout every episode that you publish. Plus, we'll talk about the ingredients that have to be present in your opening hook if you want to make listeners feel like you are talking directly to them. And by the end of this episode, you're going to know exactly where most podcasts lose listener attention and what you can do to fix it. Welcome to Insider's Secrets to a Top 100 podcast. I'm your host, Courtney Elman. Let's make your podcast binge-worthy. Jimmy, welcome back.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

Oh, thank you, Courtney. Glad to be back. We had a fun first chat and looking forward to digging into the meat of it right now.

SPEAKER_01 1:05

We had a lot of fun in the first chat. No one's ever come and done a live magic trick here right on the show with me before. So this is a first and it held my attention through and through. So if you're listening to this right now, then hopefully you're here because you heard that episode. If you didn't, I do recommend going back and listening to that because Jimmy has given us a great working definition of what good content is. And he showed us that in real time. And Jimmy, you broke down some of the universal principles that need to be true in order for that content to drive listener behavior and even a step before that to hold their attention. And so I really am curious now if we were to take this philosophy and talking about the neurochemicals that need to be present: oxytocin, dopamine, serotonin, these are all the psychological elements that need to be happening in your listeners' mind as they're listening to your content. That might feel a little overwhelming for you as a host because you might be like, well, how do I engineer that? You know, I'm just here to talk about what I'm passionate about, which is what I started my show for in the first place. So I love Jimmy. If you could break down an episode with us, let's take it piece by piece, let's pick it apart and have you show us how you would apply and what you would recommend hosts do to elicit these psychological triggers at various parts of the episode. So starting with the opening hook, what needs to happen there for a listener to feel intrigued enough to keep listening and to say, yeah, this is worth my time and lean in and want more.

SPEAKER_00 2:28

Yeah. And so the cool thing about the framework, and you know, you can go back and listen to the previous episode, but it's three parts.

The 3-Part Hook Formula That Makes Listeners That Makes Listeners Listen Past The First 30 Seconds

SPEAKER_00 2:35

And those three parts can cover a whole episode, and then they can also be used for the opening. And so we'll talk about that. And so the three phases are you got to connect with your audience, you got to list some curiosity, and then you have to lead them to some conversion or something that applies, you know, what we've um just been through. And so, you know, I would say if I had a generic intro, um, welcome to the show. Today we're gonna talk about three things every business owner needs to know about marketing. Let's dive in. And so there are a lot of assumptions there. And right there, you've got about five to eight seconds before people go, eh, no, I'm not listening to this. And so, how are you gonna apply that connection, curiosity, and conversion? And so a rewrite would be something to the effect of if you've ever poured money into marketing and wondered why it's not working, hey, you're not alone. Today I'm gonna show you the one thing that 46% of business owners are missing that has nothing to do with their website, their SEO, their ad budget, and it's fixable in 90 days.

SPEAKER_01 3:51

Major difference.

SPEAKER_00 3:54

So if we break that apart, the connection of the new version is hey, you've poured money into marketing and wondered why. Oh, right? If you know that your audience is a business owner or a marketer, like immediately they're gonna go, Oh, yep, I got all sorts of stories about how much money I've wasted. And so that's the connection part. That's the oxytocin release of, hey, you understand me.

SPEAKER_01 4:20

And let me ask you right there, Jimmy, if I may. Something I notice about that version or that opening line compared to the previous one you gave is that it's very specific. And it's very detailed. And it's very pointed in a way that you you know who you're talking to, which is assumed. You weren't, we all know that's important. We got to know who we're speaking to, but you know them in such a way that it's almost like you've had a day in their life. You know exactly what they would be thinking or feeling or experiencing and why that's a problem for them. So is there something to that there where calling out a problem can help with that oxytocin release where you're like, yeah, okay, you get me, you understand me.

SPEAKER_00 5:03

Yeah, exactly what you said. It's the hyper-specificity and you have to know what is your listener worry about, what keeps them up at night, what gets them excited, and you should have a list of those things. And it's like you're sitting across from them at a coffee shop and you've heard the words come out of their mouth a bunch of times, and you're basically just feeding that back to them. And so if you engage with business owners on a regular basis, you know, one of the things that they're concerned about is wasting a bunch of money on marketing. Should they be doing it anyway? Like, how are they going to see the return? And so these are things that, again, you should have a whole list of them ready to go. And it's not, are you upset with your marketing? It's you have wasted a lot of money on marketing. So there's some psychology involved in that. You will do more to protect and not lose money you have than you will to go out and get more money. And so that's another little psychology uh baked into that.

SPEAKER_01 6:08

Yes. And so what I'm hearing is it's a specific problem, it's a painful problem. And when we can hit on that, that

The Hyper-Specific Opening That Sounds Like You’re Reading Your Listener’s Mind

SPEAKER_01 6:16

is one very tangible step that we can take in the words that we say, and I'm sure there's more to it than delivering those words as well, but not to get ahead of ourselves, to grab someone's attention and to say, hmm, I'm leaning in now and I'm paying attention because you're you are talking to me.

SPEAKER_00 6:31

Yeah. And then we've opened the door for that curiosity. And the curiosity is one thing that 46% of business owners are missing. And it has nothing to do with your website, your SEO, your ad budget. And so, again, very specific, one thing. So we're not going to talk about 25 things. So, okay, I got to know what that one thing is. You've opened up this curiosity uh hit of dopamine, which is the expectation of closure or a reward. Like, I need to know the answer, right? I mean, that's why people say you're addicted to social media, because when you post something, you want to know, you know, is somebody gonna like it, share it, comment on it? You know, that's why we binge TV shows, because there are these openings that you have to resolve. And so having that open, you're not gonna give them the answer, but you're going to activate the conversion, which is what you want them to continue to listen to the episode to figure out. So you can actually sort of close the loop in this little sequence by saying, and it's fixable in 90 days. And so that's the solution, right? It's fixable, but it's still curiosity and it still is opened. And so I've created this pain. I've told you that there's a secret, and so it's somewhat contrarian because it doesn't apply to your website or your SEO or your ad budget. And then I'm saying it's fixable. And so that's that release of serotonin. It's like, okay, you're gonna tell me how this is fixed. All right, I'm ready. And so we have this nice little package in about five seconds, eight seconds, that gives somebody an answer to why the heck am I gonna sit here and listen to this 30-minute episode? And you basically told them why they should, and you've packaged it up nicely, and now you can get in to the actual episode itself. And you know, I'm sure we're gonna break that apart as well.

SPEAKER_01 8:34

Yes, I do want to break that apart. Before we do, uh, you mentioned you can apply this, let's call it a framework, you know, this philosophy to various pieces of your episode. You can do this multiple times throughout an episode, or you can apply it as an overarching theme throughout your episode. Is one better than the other? Is there certain types of content that one serves the audience better than another would? Or does that really come down to personal preference and how you feel most comfortable in delivering this information?

SPEAKER_00 9:00

I would say the more comfortable you get with it, you are going to use it not only as the structure of your entire episode, but then you're gonna layer in miniature versions of this throughout. And so it's gonna repeat itself over and over. And that is what keeps people listening and hooked throughout the episode. And then that also provides continuity to the next episode uh to keep them going. I mean, we did the same thing, right? We talked about the theory, and then we said, guess what? On the next episode, we're gonna break it down. So, what do you have to do? You have to, I gotta figure out how this works. What's the secret that's going on backstage so that I can apply this for myself? And so I wanted to make it simple and I wanted to make it fit with the neurochemistry of what actually works. And I would say the first thing you can do is try it in your opening and try it in your closing. And then you're gonna go, oh, I love this. I'm getting great feedback. Now you can start to layer it in in more places. So yeah, get comfortable with it, and then I think it applies everywhere.

SPEAKER_01 10:04

Great. And yes, Jimmy, as someone who uses this, you know, in my own content, it's interesting how it does become second nature after a point. But there are some things that have to be present first. As you mentioned, a list of problems is a great place to start. A list of desires. What does your audience want that they haven't been able to get or achieve, which is why they're listening to your show in the first place. And then you're essentially, you mentioned backstage, you're connecting those dots and you're doing this as the host without your audience or your listener realizing that you're doing this. But you're engineering your content and your communication in such a way that it is designed to hold attention because of the neurochemistry and the psychology and how we're naturally wired as humans to want to pay attention to certain things.

The Curiosity Loop Structure That Keeps Listeners Listening Longer

SPEAKER_01 10:52

So, this is fascinating for me, and I love the psychology behind this. I'm curious, as we move into the body content, the main portion of the episode, if you have an educational podcast or the interview with your guest that you're hosting on the podcast, especially a guest interview, let's start there. How do you ask questions in such a way that can then elicit these neurochemicals and keep someone engaged? Because we've all heard a podcast episode where it's like, well, that was pretty boring. And the title really sold me, but that uh, oh gosh, that was a yawn fest. That guess wasn't great at all.

SPEAKER_00 11:25

Again, it comes down to experience and trying things. I mean, I've been on stage and bombed terribly, and you got to figure out, okay, why did I bomb? And I often, you know, as a young performer, you blame the audience, but really you're the performer, and it's your responsibility to guide the audience. And so I would say that would hold true with an interview. Obviously, you're going to vet your guests. You probably know things about them. And so if you ask, give us a surprising stat, give us a counterintuitive insight. What has surprised you as the expert? And so that is going to trigger them to provide something that opens up one of those loops, right? Then we want to close that by teaching something actionable. Oh, well, that's very interesting that you identified that. Tell us how you did that. So let's say that, and this is a terrible example, but you're teaching somebody how to bake chocolate chip cookies, right? And so then you go, but here's the part nobody talks about. And I know you have a secret recipe that if people are allergic to this ingredient, you've reconstructed this recipe for these types of gluten situations or, you know, allergies to nuts. And so you've taken one thing and then you've continued it to say, but here's the other thing that you need to think about, or here's the other thing that you need. And so you're layering on the stakes, similar to a magic show. You would say, okay, what I'll what we're gonna do is we're gonna have Courtney and Joe come up and they're gonna handcuff me, and I'm gonna try to escape from the handcuffs, right? And so that's one thing, you've created some intrigue. The next part would be, and they're actually going to tie my feet and hoist me above the stage, and I will be hanging upside down. Oh, wow, that's crazy. And then we're gonna roll out this, you know, tank filled with piranha fish. And if I don't escape in, you know, 10 seconds, then I get lowered into the tank of piranha fish. It's all the same thing, right? So you're layering on conditions that raise the stakes, and so you can do the same thing. And so you could present to your uh guest uh some scenarios where you're raising the stakes. What would you do in this situation? What would you do in that situation? If you listen to podcasts about financial literacy and investment tips and this, that like it has all this drama baked in of things that can go right, things that can go wrong. And pulling that out of your guest can create all sorts of drama.

SPEAKER_01 14:11

Yeah. And I think your cookie example is actually a very great example because there's a lot of instances where you might be talking about a topic that gets talked about a lot.

SPEAKER_00 14:19

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:19

So we've all heard about it a lot. And okay, this is something everybody knows. We all kind of know more or less how to combine flour and sugar and eggs and bake the cookies. Okay, great. But now you're talking about we're raising the stakes and we're making it different and we're getting specific with those problems. And we know what the problems are that are painful. We know what people want to achieve. We're gonna help them do that, we're gonna make it actionable. And so now it's a different conversation. So I'm curious then if this is what we can do in a guest interview, and I really like the specific questions that you shared with us as some examples of, you know, you could ask this and use those words, surprising, or what's something counterintuitive, or something that maybe you that, you know, you might be afraid to recommend here, but we're gonna do it here on this show because you come here for this kind of content, you know, and just lean into that and be polarizing. I think, yeah, there's a lot we could say about that. But if we were to take it to a solo episode, Jimmy, and this is where, you know, your expertise is gonna shine. You're teaching the content, you're leading that episode, you're guiding your audience. And we want to make sure that we hold their attention throughout the episode because listeners dropping off halfway through an episode to the two-thirds point, it's kind of the most common point that listeners tend to drop off in an episode. So it always makes me ask the question of well, what is happening there that causes the listener to lose attention? Because we had their attention up until 14 minutes in. But now we're 16 minutes in, 18 minutes in, and we've lost them. But well, we still have eight minutes of content left. So what happened there? And how can we prevent that from happening by applying exactly what you're teaching us?

SPEAKER_00 15:43

One of the first things is an episode intro that is not um giving them a reason to hang out, right? And so, what is the reason why I'm gonna say yes to letting it continue to play? The other one is closing loops too early. And so we've talked a lot about opening loops and closing loops, and so don't be manipulative, but elicit that curiosity. And as part of the intro, you can say, now hang around to the end, because this last point that I'm gonna cover is gonna be the biggie that's really gonna, you know, win the day for you. But but I we can't get there until I give you a little bit of background. So hang with me for about the first 10 minutes, and then we'll get into this bigger thing. And so immediately I go, oh, okay, there's gonna be this big thing at the end. I got to wait for a couple of things to get my skills up to the point where I can understand the big thing, and I'm just, you know, talking off the top of my head here. And then I see this a lot and I hear this a lot, and you know, you probably have some thoughts on it. When there's a commercial or a call to action that interrupts that flow, it feels you you bring the people out of this world that you've put them in, right? And so when we were in the last episode and we we had this magic trick that we were doing, and you said that everything went away and you were totally focused. Well, if we interrupted that with a call to action or a like the show or subscribe to my newsletter, or you know, whatever the case may be, you would have pulled people out of that. It's just like being interrupted on a TV show or having something happen in the movie theater that distracts you. Um, so I would say those are a couple of things. Number one, you should work towards um keeping those loops in the appropriate place and then also not interrupting it with something that takes them out of this emotional tie that they have to the episode.

SPEAKER_01 17:48

That's a very important point because there's a huge debate in the industry about when to place your calls to action. In fact, I just released an episode on this because if you wait too long and you wait till the end, well, people might not hear it. If you put it in the middle, you might take them out of this loop that you just opened. And now we've suddenly broken that connection and that attention that we've earned at that point. And so, do you have any thoughts on where you should be placing that? And the best way to structure them so that when you move into that call to action, you don't suddenly feel like you're operating out of your body where you're like, okay, this is weird now. This feels a little salesy and icky, and you go from, hey, I'm having this conversation to now I'm selling you something. Because listeners, that's a palpable shift that happens there too. And I see it happen a lot. And listeners will feel that and they will be less likely to convert. So, kind of a two-part question here, Jimmy. Any thoughts you have on the placement of that call to action and then the structuring of that to get someone to take that natural next step.

SPEAKER_00 18:46

Yeah. And I would say it goes back to that structure of connection, curiosity, and conversion. And that call to action can actually be in multiple places because you have little units that happen throughout the episode, but they feel like the natural progression. So let me give you a couple of before and after examples. So let's say that you've finished a segment in your episode and you say, Well, if you like that segment, please subscribe to our podcast and leave us a review. And hey, check out the website for more resources. Well, all of a sudden, that feels like the ending, right? And I go, Oh, okay, well, I guess it's over. And that's kind

The CTA Transition Framework That Keeps Your Pitch From Feeling Salesy

SPEAKER_00 19:29

of weird that they put that in that spot. But what if the things that happened before that call to action simply recapped and gave them a resource that is appropriate to what we just went through? So, so if you really enjoyed what we just went over, here's what I want you to do. For your next episode, I just want you to try this in your opening. The free three phases we just talked about connection, curiosity, conversion, just try that in your next episode and see what your completion rate looks like. And I think you're gonna be surprised. We're gonna have some things in the show notes that talk about how to structure this for your opening. But, you know, the next segment that we're getting into, that's gonna be the one that really sends you on your way. So hang on just a minute. We're gonna get to that. And so now it feels like all right, we're ending this segment. I'm gonna give you something. Here's where you can find it. Your brain can relax, that you don't have to write it down and remember it. That's the landing place for everything that's gonna happen, you know, as a follow-up. And now we're moving into this other thing that's even more important than the thing we just went over. So, oh my gosh, you definitely got to hang on for this.

SPEAKER_01 20:46

Yes. And we're just keeping all these neurochemicals flowing in our listeners' brain at all times, right? Because you close that loop, you say, okay, we just in the show notes. Don't worry about it. Your brain can relax. Serotonin, great, but now we're opening a loop. And oh my gosh, there's more oxytocin, so now I gotta get no. And it it is, I mean, this is human psychology, you know. And I hate to say that it says it's that simple because it's not that simple. We are very complex human beings. At the end of the day, when you understand this stuff, it's really fun. And you could really begin to take your content to a new level. And I'm gonna say next level, that's super generic, but to a new level that your listeners maybe haven't experienced before from anyone else in your space. And that will differentiate you, that will set you apart. So, Jimmy, I really appreciate you being here to help us rethink our content today. Did we miss anything? Is there anything I should have asked you that you would love to make mention of now that you feel like listeners need to know before we close out this episode?

SPEAKER_00 21:35

Well, I could actually give you a secret that I don't really tell many people. Would you be interested in that?

SPEAKER_01 21:42

Yes, I would. And I'm gonna lean in too, and I'm gonna lower my voice as well because this sounds very exciting. And I think listeners really need to know this.

SPEAKER_00 21:49

Your voice is your tool. It can set you free, it can excite your listeners, it can bring them to the energy level that you want. And we were doing a little bit of manipulation there, Courtney, but I would say vary your pace, vary your tone, vary your volume. When I leaned in and said, hey, would you like to hear a secret? It was appropriate to that. And so people, if they're working out, they're gonna pause the treadmill. They're gonna go, what? If they're in the car, they're gonna turn up the volume. And so if you're excited about it, if you literally want to share a secret, like talk to them as if you're sitting across from them in a coffee shop and you don't want anybody else to hear. They're gonna feel that energy. There are many resources that you can learn about this, but um, I would say

The Simple Vocal Shifts That Pull Distracted Listeners Back Into the Conversation

SPEAKER_00 22:42

get away from the performance side of it and look for that human, real connection. Laugh if you think something is funny, depending on your personality. Like I always tell my wife, she can entertain herself because she laughs at her own jokes. And it's hilarious and it makes me laugh, right? And so these are all the things that you have at your disposal, whether you're video and audio, whether you're just audio, I would say study those things and understand why they work.

SPEAKER_01 23:11

Yeah. And as an on-stage performer and a TEDx coach, Jimmy, I know that you know this inside and out. We'll have to have you back to talk about that and to dig into the voice and tonality and how we can really create that connection, not just through what we're saying, but through how we are saying it. You are a wealth of information. Thank you so much for being here with us today.

SPEAKER_00 23:28

Had a blast, Courtney.

SPEAKER_01 23:29

And if you enjoyed this episode, then stay right where you are, because coming up next, we're gonna be talking about the four signs that listeners are overlooking your podcast and choosing your competition and the one thing that you need to do to fix it. Because right now, if you are experiencing any one or more of these four problems, then I guarantee you, listeners are choosing other podcasts to listen to over yours. We're gonna talk about why this happens and what to do about it so that the listeners out there right now looking for a show like yours, who need whatever it is that you teach, can find you and click play. That's all coming up next to help you make your podcast binge worthy.