The Science Pawdcast

Episode 29 Season 7: Baby Brains, Play Wild Dogs, and Vet Chat with Dr. Nancy Kay

• Jason and Kris Zackowski

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A newborn with higher pTau217 than an adult with Alzheimer’s—what would that mean for how we detect, define, and treat dementia? We dive into a startling new finding that reframes tau phosphorylation as a dynamic, reversible process rather than a one-way street. From the costs and tradeoffs of PET scans and CSF analysis to the promise of new blood tests, we lay out how clinicians navigate biomarkers and why context matters. If babies and even hibernating animals can toggle tau safely, we might be looking at a new horizon for Alzheimer’s research—one that prioritizes regulation over blunt suppression and respects the difference between signals and symptoms.

Then we turn to our dogs and a different kind of brain science: play that looks a lot like behavioral addiction. In a study of high-drive pets, some dogs pursued play so intensely they ignored food and struggled to settle once the toy disappeared. The kicker? It’s not the toy—it’s the play. We unpack how anticipation and reward loops shape behavior, why shepherds and terriers tend to lean in hard, and how to channel that energy with structured games, clear start/stop cues, and decompression routines that protect both joy and well-being.

Our guest, Dr. Nancy Kay—veterinarian and small animal internal medicine specialist—brings practical wisdom to family life with pets. She explains how to choose a dog that truly fits a home with kids, why supervision and respect rules beat wishful thinking, and how to steer clear of puppy mills and dog auctions with two simple safeguards: never buy from pet stores and never purchase sight unseen. We talk about her middle-grade novel, “A Dog Named 647,” her advocacy guide “Speaking for Spot,” and the unforgettable cases that come with a life in medicine—from swallowed treasures to high-stakes rescues. It’s science that matters, compassion that lasts, and stories that stick.

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Dr. Nancy's Links:

A Dog Named 647

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SPEAKER_00:

Hello, science enthusiasts. I'm Jason Zakowski.

SPEAKER_01:

And I'm Chris Zikoski.

SPEAKER_00:

We're the pet parents of Bunsen, Beaker, Bernoulli, and Ginger.

SPEAKER_01:

The science animals on social media. If you love science and you love pets, you've come to the right spot. So put on your safety glasses and hold on to your tail.

SPEAKER_00:

This is the Science Podcast. Hello, and welcome back to the Science Podcast. We hope you're happy and healthy out there. This is episode 29 of season seven. Chris, how are you doing? It's been a weird week.

SPEAKER_01:

It I'm doing very well. Thank you so much for asking. It has been a strange week, very similar to when we're on summer holidays, but we're definitely not on summer holidays. And we've been joining some things this week to in support of teachers and our teachers association.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. I guess the good news is that the government and the union are bargaining, are going back to the bargaining table next week. So let's hope, let's hope something fruitful comes from that. But yeah, it's definitely been an odd, weird week. And this weekend, of course, for Canadians is Thanksgiving. So we do have Thanksgiving about a month ahead of the Americans.

SPEAKER_01:

What are you thankful for?

SPEAKER_00:

Dogs. What are you thankful for?

SPEAKER_01:

I'm thankful for my family and I'm thankful for my health.

SPEAKER_00:

Answers.

SPEAKER_01:

They are good answers. I was walking, we were doing a walk, and I stepped on the curb funny, and I fell down. And I'm glad I did not break any of my bones.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, you did take a tumble.

SPEAKER_01:

I did all right.

SPEAKER_00:

Let's get to the show. On the Science Podcast this week, we're going to be talking about some rather shocking new data about Alzheimer's disease and babies. You found this article, and I was stunned as I was reading through it. It was it's fascinating but horrifying at the same time. And then in pet science, we're going to be looking at how dogs may have some obsessive compulsive behaviors like humans. And I know we see that with Beaker and her chasing light.

SPEAKER_01:

She is a strong fixation on anything flashing. So if your watch has a reflection on the wall, or if your phone is reflecting the light, then it's a concern definitely for her.

SPEAKER_00:

And we do have a guest this week, Dr. Nancy Kay, is a veterinarian, and we do get in some really good discussions about pets and having pets when you've got kids in the house. All right, let's get on with the show. There's no time lake.

SPEAKER_01:

Science time.

SPEAKER_00:

This week in Science News, we're going to talk about Alzheimer's disease. Again, I feel like we've been talking about this quite a bit, but there's just been really interesting news about it in current events.

SPEAKER_01:

And a lot of new research and some promising things coming out of the research.

SPEAKER_00:

Right, promising, but I think this is kind of spooky.

SPEAKER_01:

Uh, as we're getting close to Halloween, it's perfect for spooky season. Yes, you're right.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Not to make light of Alzheimer's or for anybody whose family is going through that. It's definitely a very devastating disease to be diagnosed with it and as it progresses. But spooky meaning, some of the findings is definitely, I think, scary. And I know you found the silver lining in the story that it could perhaps lead to treatments in the future, which is great.

SPEAKER_01:

So, Jason, can you tell me a little bit about Alzheimer's disease? What is it, and what are the current ideas about how it starts?

SPEAKER_00:

So I think we could probably start with a general overview of Alzheimer's disease. We've talked about it before, but it's a disorder that destroys your memory, thinking skills, and your ability to carry out tasks. It's the most common cause of dementia, which is a general term for the decline in your mental ability, and it becomes so severe that it starts to interfere with your daily life. And then for most folks, it does become fatal, which is really sad. And specifically, there are two hallmark features in the brain that changes. There are amyloid beta plaques, these are clumps of protein fragments that accumulate between neurons. So just gum up the works there. And tau tangles. These are twisted fibers made of phosphorylated tau proteins inside neurons. So instead of having clear intersections for traffic to travel through, they are all clogged up with goo and the roads aren't straight, they're icy and twisted. And that's the best way I can probably explain Alzheimer's disease.

SPEAKER_01:

So there are several diagnostic methods that have been used to determine if someone may be influenced by Alzheimer's. One of those is neuroimaging, and those detect the amyloid and tau deposits directly in the brain. And but it's really expensive and is technologically demanding to have the PET scans or other neuroimaging. Another test is the cerebrospinal fluid, the CSF test, and that measures the amyloid beta and modified tau levels, but that requires a lumbar puncture, which is often considered invasive. But now there is a new blood test and it measures the amyloid beta and something called the P tau 217, which is the phosphor-related Tau at position 217. And that's recently been approved, and it's non-invasive, and it helps detect preclinical Alzheimer's disease, the amyloid accumulation before the symptoms actually appear.

SPEAKER_00:

Doctors always try to do non-invasive stuff if they can, and it becomes more invasive, obviously, the more you go into the body to look for things. So where the study comes from is brain communications. Recently, within the last week, new research found this is the shocking thing, unexpectedly high levels of the PTau 217 in healthy babies, newborns. And the levels in newborns were over five times higher than teens or adults. In fact, healthy newborns had more P Tau 217 than people with Alzheimer's disease. That's shocking. Like when I saw that, I was like, what? Because we did another study talking about P Tau 217 or at least the Tau twisted proteins. So what this sort of suggests at first blush is that Tau phosphorylation, it can be reversible. And that's where the silver lining comes from that you were hopeful for, Chris, because if it's reversible, maybe there's some potential therapeutic programs that can be implemented.

SPEAKER_01:

Going back to how did the researchers determine this? They measured the PTau 217 in healthy newborns, teenagers, young adults, and young adults are considered 18 to 25, and seniors, which were considered age 70 to 77. And all of the participants showed normal cognitive function. What they saw or what they found is no major differences between the teens and adults. But like you said, the newborns had extremely elevated P tau 217. And so preterm infants that are less than 20 weeks of gestation displayed even higher PTau 217 levels. But the levels dropped, but the levels dropped over 20 weeks post-birth after the babies were born, eventually matching healthy young adult levels.

SPEAKER_00:

So the preterm infants, those are like premi babies, like born before their due date. Is that the idea?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, okay. So they compared this with an Alzheimer patient cohort. The folks in the cohort had Alzheimer's dementia, and those with mild cognitive impairment of the Alzheimer's type, and then they had healthy controls with that which had no cognitive decline. The diagnosis were confirmed through lumbar puncture and cognitive testing. So more invasive, but also doing face-to-face work. The Alzheimer's and MCI patients had elevated PTau 217 versus the healthy adult cohort, but still less than half the level seen in newborns. Other protein findings from the study also include total tau, which was elevated in newborns, not just PTau 217. This matches this matched earlier data showing that fetal brains had very high tau during gestation. Weirdly, the amyloid beta was significantly lower in newborns than in older participants, which is the other thing that, of course, is one of the hallmarks of Alzheimer's disease. Of course, there's other disorders and diseases where you have that P tau 217.

SPEAKER_01:

So the Krautzfeld Jacob disease sees elevated P tau 217, the Neiman pick type C ALS, which is Luke Gehrig's disease, and there's also certain Tau gene mutations. And that can actually suggest that phosphorylization can occur without Alzheimer's pathology.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, the Krusfelds-Yachov disease, I had to practice saying that in university in one of my microbiology classes, because it's caused by prions. The common name for that is in cows, mad cow disease. It's 100% fatal. And you get it from eating brains.

SPEAKER_01:

Jason, is that the presentation that you were supposed to do, but you were hit by a bike on the way to the No, that was a nut, that was a foodborne pathogen that I was really excited.

SPEAKER_00:

Clostrinium perfynes. I was really excited to talk about that. But prion is a they're like a mutated protein. Basically screwed up proteins, and they're infectious. Like they'll just screw up all the proteins they come in contact with. They're super nasty, like not fun at all. That's odd that you have that same elevated tau in that disorder. In nature, though, there is some tau reversibility. We see that in hibernating animals, like ground squirrels and black bear bears. A while back, I talked to a grizzly bear scientist who actually brought this up that during torpor, which isn't hibernation with bears, um, they just go into deep sleep. They show temporary tau changes. This serves as a protective mechanism when their metabolism is really slow. It reverses when the animals wake up.

SPEAKER_01:

So we don't want to make too many generalizations about this study because there are some implications and debate. If we're talking about a newborn and a 60-year-old with mild memory loss, they can both actually test positive for PTau 217. But of course, their contexts are vastly different. One is a newborn and one is a 60-year-old person. The study raises questions about whether Alzheimer's should be defined by biomarkers like PTau 217 or by clinical symptoms that can be expressed in the doctor's office or wherever you go for your medical assistance. So the findings don't settle the debate, but they emphasize the reversible nature of Tau phosphorylization, phosphorylation, and it actually suggests new directions for Alzheimer's treatments aiming at reversing or regulating tau buildup.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, if squirrels and bears can do it and babies, why not older folk? That's at least hope. That's at least hopeful, right? Because the diagnosis is very scary for families and comes with a lot of despair. So a little bit of hope here. All right, that's science news for this week. This week in Pet Science, we're gonna be talking about addictive behaviors, but maybe with dogs. I don't think Bunsen or Bernoulli have any obsessive or addictive behaviors, but definitely Beaker does, as we mentioned in the lead. She chases light, and it's she's done it her whole life, ever since she was a puppy, and it's been impossible or very difficult to break.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, like even with Leviat, she it's very hard for her to not follow the light. Even today, when we were outside and there were no phones anywhere, so no flashing glint of any light. She, we were outside, it was sunny, she was searching the ground just in case there was going to be some light for her to ignoring all the dogs and the people.

SPEAKER_00:

She was just focused on. I think somebody had a phone or a watch and there was a glint and she saw it. So that's why she was on point for that.

SPEAKER_01:

Maybe you're right.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, but we're not talking about we're not talking about beaker chasing light. We're talking about dogs playing because some dogs play to an extreme degree, that their play shares characteristics with human addictions. Now, the research that we're going to get into suggests that the play, but not the toy, may act as a behavioral reward similar to addictive patterns, which is crazy wild.

SPEAKER_01:

The study found in scientific reports studied 105 pet dogs, and they were all enthusiastic about play. They did a toy s what?

SPEAKER_00:

I just said yay, and they like to play.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, I thought you said hey. And what they did is they had a toy selection process where the owners chose three types of toys that they believed their dog liked the best. One being a ball, two being a plush toy, and three being a tug toy. After that, the dogs then interacted with all three toys. And the toy that captured the dog's greatest interest became the one that was used in the experiments.

SPEAKER_00:

So here we go. Here's the experiments, Chris. The researchers conducted controlled tests to evaluate the dog's reactions. One was mean, it's the inaccessible toy test. The dog's preferred toy was placed out of reach on a shelf, and the observers record behaviors such as whining, staring, jumping, or pawing. These reactions gauged the dog's motivation and frustration levels. Then they did toy versus food puzzle test. The same toy was locked inside a closed box, and a puzzle feeder was filled with dry food and left freely available. They observed if dogs ignored the food and went after the box, or ignored the box and went after the food. And then the last one was calming time measurement. The researchers measured how long each dog took to calm down after the toy was removed. Longer recovery times indicated a stronger emotional investment and addiction like drive. Now, did you notice that after uh like we went to Sally's Play Center today and Bernoulli and Beaker got to swim, which was cute. Like Bernoulli was like crazy after swimming. Like he was ought, had so much energy.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it was like you should be so tired. You've been swimming so hard, but you were running around frisky, I think, because he was all wet, and so he was getting a blow dry from the wind. But there also was different dogs. There was a bit of a rotation which could have changed the dynamic, but he definitely was full of energy. That's you're absolutely right. The findings were actually published in scientific reports, and they used a behavior-based scoring system. And 33 out of the 105 dogs displayed addictive-like behavior towards their toys. Now, the traits that mirrored human addiction were the persistent pursuit of the reward, so the toy or the play, and the difficulty disengaging once the reward was removed, and also prioritizing the rewarding activity, the play, over all the other needs, food. So just being fixated on that toy, even when there was food left to free feed. So the key interpretation then that they found is that the object or the toy isn't the addiction, but the play is. So they like the excitement, they like the positive feelings that come from interactive play. The toy then becomes a symbol or a trigger for the pleasure of play that's about to come. Like you see the toy, oh boy, fun is going to be had. And that parallels behavioral addiction in humans where the stimulus, like gambling or gaming, triggers that dopamine-driven reward loops in the brain.

SPEAKER_00:

Very cool. Now, everybody at home, take a guess which breeds were most likely to exhibit a huge toy play fixation.

SPEAKER_01:

Did you say like and perseverance and the perseverance is clear? Perseverance, right? Perseverance, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Not give it, not stick to it. Shepherd breeds and terriers, obviously, because they have very high focus, they're persistent, and they have a strong prey and play drive. Those are traits that are very valuable when you have working and herding dogs. Now, the exact percentage of dogs showing addictive like play behavior remains unknown. There was an unpublished study, that of course, this was not vetted, this was unpublished, found about 3% could be classified as having addictive like behavior. So there's not this is just not a very well studied area of dog behavior. But there's a lot of good implic, there's a lot of interesting implications because behavioral addictions in humans are not fully understood. But you probably had to take a sociology or psychology class in your education degree, right, Chris? And there's some people who do an addictive thing and never get addicted, and then there's some people who get addicted right away, right? So it's still not really understood why that happens. And compulsive play behaviors in dogs are even less studied. So don't equate dog toy obsession with human addiction because it's not well understood. The analogy is partial, and the last thing I guess is like a dog's addictive behavior may just reflect joy, not some kind of pathological addiction. You shouldn't stop playing with your dog.

SPEAKER_01:

No, because this research actually emphasizes the positive importance of having play with your dog because it strengthens the dog-human bond, it provides mental stimulation and emotional release for both parties, and it actually helps dogs express their natural instincts safely, which is what I really loved today about just hanging out and playing with the dogs.

SPEAKER_00:

There and seeing Beaker go retrieve, like she's so fast at it.

SPEAKER_01:

And just how she likes, yeah, and how she likes going up and down the obstacles, and just yeah, right when she got in the parking lot, she was smiling, and she didn't have her resting beaker face, she had her resting smiling face, which is always a delight to see.

SPEAKER_00:

Exactly. Yeah, the whole place is a jungle gym, and she just loves that whole thing. It's just cool for her. Bernoulli likes it too, but he just likes to go everywhere. All right, that's pet signs for this week. It's time for Ask an Expert on the Science Podcast, and I have veterinary doctor and small animal internal medicine specialist, Dr. Nancy Kay. Nancy, how are you doing today?

SPEAKER_02:

Fabulous. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00:

Yay, yeah, I'm excited to talk to you. I always ask our guests where are you in the world? Where are you calling into the show from?

SPEAKER_02:

I am in Oakland, California.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, okay. Yeah, so you we are entering winter right away as most of California kind of stays the same. That's what I've heard. Yes. The seasons just blend from spring to summer and then back to spring again.

SPEAKER_02:

We have four seasons, but it's yeah, I if I tell people about the weather here, I tend to make them pretty darn jealous.

SPEAKER_00:

There you go. I introduced you as Dr. Nancy Kay. Could you talk to us a little bit about your training as a vet?

SPEAKER_02:

You bet. So I went through a pre-veterinary school program, which is the equivalent of a bachelor's degree, and then four years of veterinary school. And after four years of veterinary school, when we graduate, we are able to go out and practice veterinary medicine on all species, great and small. So we become fairly proficient in a lot of different species. But I wanted to go ahead as a lot of people do and specialize. There's all kinds of veterinary specialists, cardiologists, neurologists, oncologists. I'm an internal medicine specialist. And what we do is we go through a year-long training program, an internship program, and then two years of residency, and then write papers and sit through some really tough examinations.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, man.

SPEAKER_02:

And if we do well, we come out the other end as a board certified specialist.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. When you were young, was becoming a veterinary doctor a calling to you? Was it something you wanted to be as a young person?

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, it was. It really was. I like to say that I emerged from the womb-loving animals. And by 10 years of age, I knew I wanted to become a veterinarian, and I never gave up on that. So I think I'm the exception rather than the rule in that regard.

SPEAKER_00:

From Chris and I and our family of pets, we just want to thank you for the work that you do. We are the vets are the first line of defense with the pets that we love. And Bunsen had just about the a short end to his life last year, if not for the skillful work of a team of vets. Yeah. Thank you for what you do.

SPEAKER_02:

Thanks. Thanks for saying that.

SPEAKER_00:

Now, you have written some books and have some specific knowledge about some things that we've never really chatted with guests before on the podcast. And I think I was gonna, I think I'm gonna pick your brain on some of them if that's please.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, by all means.

SPEAKER_00:

So there's a lot of parents that listen to our show, but they have kids. They've joined listening to the show, I think, from our accounts on Instagram and Facebook. And I was wondering, could you give us some tips for parents about having a pet and kids at the same time?

SPEAKER_02:

Sure. A lot depends on the age of the children. I'll put that out there and I'll explain a little bit more about what I mean by that. Before you get a pet, and let's say it's a dog in this situation.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

You want to make sure that everyone in the house wants the dog. The grown-ups need to be into it. And I've heard so many times that the child says they'll take responsibility for the dog, and that just doesn't happen. Even kids that are in middle school and high school, they're busy, they're distracted, and it's a problem for the dog if meals get skipped or if the walk doesn't happen. And so as a parent, you want to be sure that you are into taking care of the dog. And certainly the child can do things under your supervision, but don't get a dog simply because the children want one, because the responsibility is with the adult and the family. Secondly, I know how frantic and frenetic households with young children can be, especially with parents working in there, done that. And if you have young kids, the kind of kids that I like to think of as exploding with exuberance physically, jumping and leaping and screaming, and that's not a good fit for a puppy. Because for a puppy, that's an invitation to come play, come jump, come bite. And so puppies and young kids are not a good combination. And if you're going to get an adult dog, that's a different story. Want to be careful about what temperament you choose. Some dogs, some dog breeds in particular, are excellent with children, and others simply are not. I saw a saying the other day that I loved that said, you cannot train a dog to be good with kids. But what you can do is train a kid to be good with dogs. So I'm a big believer in that children should have respect for the dog. They shouldn't use the dog as a beanbag chair. They shouldn't be putting their fingers in the dog food bowl when the dog is wanting to eat. If the dog is in a crate, which is the dog's kind of sacred chill place, that's not a place that the kids should enter. So having kids, especially little kids and dogs, needs, in my opinion, constant supervision. And if you ask about any ER doc, emergency room doc, they'll tell you the same thing because they're the ones that see the situations that have gone awry. Truthfully, 99.9% of the time, when a dog bites, it's because the grown-up made a mistake. When a dog bites a child, that the grown-up has made a mistake by letting them be together unsupervised, by letting the dog, the kid, do things to the dog that are inappropriate.

SPEAKER_00:

That's a really good message, too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And so what I recommend for busy families who really want a dog is try to find that dog that needs to be rehomed because of circumstances such as someone passed away, there's a divorce, someone is moving, but that dog then arrives into your household with manners, knows some obedience, is house-trained, so that the dog can just come in very smoothly and blend into the family without any problems. And of course, breed temperament plays a role because I'll be the first to tell you that when I was raising my three children, we had golden retrievers in the house. And we did that because we know the temperament. They're nanny dogs, so to speak. Labradors, standard poodles are a great family breed of dog, or mixed breed dog that has been evaluated by someone who's really knowledgeable. So if you decide to adopt a dog from a shelter or a rescue, which I'm completely in favor of, someone should hopefully have done temperament testing on that dog before you bring the dog into your home.

SPEAKER_00:

Those are all great points. And I would imagine they might be hard to hear. Like some folks might prickle when they hear that from you. Have you tell me why? No, I agree. It's just that everybody has the best intentions, right? They're like the dog, and I'll train the dog, and the kids are going to be good with the dog. Or like my my middle school child is so responsible, they'll take care of the dog. Don't you worry about it.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, there's certainly exceptions. No, no doubt about it. There's exceptions. That's why a lot of dogs get returned to shelter situations, is because the family thinks that they can do it and figure out that they're not getting what they need, the people, and the dog isn't getting what the dog needs to be happy and comfortable.

SPEAKER_00:

You bet.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Our we have three dogs, Bunsen, Beaker, and Bernoulli.

SPEAKER_02:

And Bunsen science names.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and Bunsen and Bernoulli are huge, right? They're Bernice Mountain dogs. They're very big. And they're great with kids. Like they're really good with kids. Bunsen loves little kids, and Bernoulli does too. But like we watch when little kids come to our house for a visit or we're out in public. We're watching little because it just takes that little kid, like a toddler, to poke them in the eye. And they're not there, like I don't think they would ever bite a child, but they might flinch and fling that kid across the room.

SPEAKER_02:

That's exactly right.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, those unintended movements of big dogs can just send small children flying.

SPEAKER_02:

Right. Burners are on that breed list for dogs that tend. To be more like nannies than dogs in the family situation with kids. And that the problem, the special problem with young kids, is the things that they do and the noises that they make uh really activate a dog to be excited. And the kid's face is right at the dog's the level of the dog's face. So if there is an unexpected consequence, it's pretty hazardous.

SPEAKER_00:

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

That's great advice. And like I said, we've never had a discussion with a vet about this before.

SPEAKER_02:

And if I can say one more thing.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

I think kids should be raised with animals. I think it does so much good for them in terms of teaching empathy, helping the kid learn some responsibility. I yeah, I would never raise a child or a grandchild of mine without a dog and cat in the house.

SPEAKER_00:

Great. Are you okay with the and that that that question? Can we move on to the next one? Of course. All right, I'll cut this bit, don't worry. Another interesting thing that you mentioned that you have some expertise in or you have some knowledge about, and it's something that we really haven't had a vet chat with us about, and that's the subject of puppy mills and dog auctions. Can you talk to us about that?

SPEAKER_02:

Sure. So for anyone listening who's not familiar with puppy mills, what they are, large commercial breeding facilities. There's a lot in Canada, there's a lot in the United States. In the United States, we guesstimate there are to be 10,000 of them putting out 45 million puppies a year. And these are large, the way I liken these large commercial scale breeding facilities, I liken them to factory farming of livestock, pigs and cows, where animals are crowded together and very overly crowded. And what's prioritized is profit. Profit is prioritized over the physical and psychological well-being of the animals. For example, in a puppy mill situation, a dog might live her entire life in a small cage with nothing but wire under her feet, and she's bred on every heat cycle. So she's either pregnant or nursing puppies and very little in between. And there's rarely positive human interaction. It's a horrific existence for a dog, absolutely horrible. At least the puppies get out when they're sold, but they carry a lot of the attributes of their dam, which is being fearful and especially of people. Those are puppy mills. Dog auctions are where puppy millers go to trade their breeding dogs. So they sell this lot of breeding dogs and buy another lot of breeding dogs. And the looks on these dog's faces, both in puppy mills and at the dog auctions, if I look into the eyes of some of these dogs, it's as if they're just pleading, help me. It's really what has motivated me to be such a vocal advocate against puppy mills. And where puppy mills sell their puppies, if you buy from a pet store, a puppy from a pet store, there's a 95% likelihood that puppy came from a puppy mill. And if you purchase a puppy online, no matter how great the website looks, no matter how many pictures or videos the breeder sends you, if you don't go and visit the kennel in person and meet the mama dog in person, then there's a good chance you're going to wind up with a puppy mill purchase. And these tend to be dogs that have a lot of psychological damage as well as physical abnormalities. And so I can't even count the number of puppies I've seen that have just been adopted, and the new owners are heartbroken because they have a very sick dog that, if we treat, can be very expensive and sometimes it's not treatable. And their only recourse is to send the puppy back to the puppy mill for a replacement dog. That's the guarantee they're given. But not many people want to do that once they understand where their puppy came from.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh man. So look, I do have some knowledge that these exist, and I know they're a big, they're a big problem. I'm just trying to think in Canada. I don't think pet stores are allowed anymore to sell dogs. That's not a thing in Canada. I think there was some law a while ago that was passed. Pet stores have they partner with rescues, so you can adopt a dog at say pet land. They have stuff like that. But yeah. What do you have some suggestions for folks? Like how can you avoid this? Yeah. Or are you just are we all part of the problem because we want dogs and we'll just get a dog without doing research? I don't know what I'm I just was hoping maybe you have some advice for us there.

SPEAKER_02:

Sure. I think that the the thing to do is to avoid falling in love with a picture that's on a website. I know so many people who see what the way these puppy mills advertise is it's almost like looking through a yearbook where there's a bunch of different head photos and they look at all page after page of the puppies and fall in love with a face and want that puppy and tend to not look at the red flags. It's I liken it to these dating apps where you see someone's pictures and you say, Oh, that's Prince Charming. And no, you haven't really investigated it, not Prince Charming at all. So the two things I think are super simple and make it really easy to avoid a puppy mill purchase. One, don't ever buy from a pet store unless it's something that's being sponsored by a rescue organization or a shelter. And two, never purchase a puppy sight and sight unseen by that. Never purchase without visiting the kennel in person and meeting the mama dog. Because puppy mills won't allow you to visit, they have way too much to hide.

SPEAKER_00:

It's gross, probably.

SPEAKER_02:

Horrific. Right. And yet they create these websites that look like they're heaven on earth for dogs. There's a lot of sham websites.

SPEAKER_00:

So when people get the dog, do they just show up? They meet somewhere and they hand you the puppy. I'm just so unfamiliar.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, yes, that's exactly right. They say, let's meet halfway so you don't have to drive as far. Or they put these six, eight-week-old puppies on planes and fly them across the country to the other thing, too, is that puppy millers tend to jump on fads. They're super opportunistic. So are doodles all the craze, all the rage up in Canada right now?

SPEAKER_00:

Do I say a little bit? They were for a bit, but I don't know. I would say not as much. Like there, no, not maybe I don't know. There's lots of them.

SPEAKER_02:

There's lots of them here.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And so what puppy millers have done, they've gone ahead and bred poodles to everything, creating all kinds of different hybrids, designer hybrids. There's a lot of burnoodles out there, which are yes, you've heard of those.

SPEAKER_05:

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And here's the thing responsible breeders do not breed designer hybrid dogs. They're passionate about the breed that they have chosen to get into. So, for example, if you purchase your dogs from a responsible breeder guaranteed, they know everything about Bernese mountain dogs. They've done all the various health clearances to screen for the diseases that Bernese mountain dogs get. And none of that exists in the land of puppy mills. They won't have paperwork documenting health of parents and grandparents. They won't have that. I think the thing to be really careful about is not to get swept away by a picture of a dog, because the more we demand puppy mill dogs, the supply chain won't simply continue as it has been. Which is why I'm taking this to the kids now. I my goal is to really educate kids about animal welfare issues, including puppy mills. Because kids in middle grade, it's about ages eight through 12 or 13, they have this bourgeoising awareness of the world around them and looking at social issues for the first time. So my goal is to teach kids about puppy mills with hopes that they'll do a better job at not per not doing business with puppy mills compared to what our generations are doing.

SPEAKER_00:

That's a good age group to hit. Like on my day job, I'm a teacher.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, there you go.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and the younger kids, it's very abstract to them to try to explain human suffering.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

But animal suffering, oh, they get that immediately.

SPEAKER_02:

Ah, interesting.

SPEAKER_00:

They latch on that's very tangible that they can visualize. Age group is that that'd be like the age you're talking about.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

It's not till the kids get to the upper grades that they can really visualize human suffering as interesting.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes. And I had for the book that I just wrote about puppy mills, I had 12 middle grade beta readers and who gave me feedback on what I'd written. And only half of them had ever heard of puppy mills before. So the way I see it, the more kids who learn about puppy mills, the better, which is why I'm always happy to give away free ebook copies of my book.

SPEAKER_00:

And this book is a dog named 647. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_02:

Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

Could you talk to us a little bit about that?

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, I would love to. So 12-year-old Mia is down on her luck. Her parents are divorced. Her dad lives three states away with his new family. Single mom works relentlessly, but yet there's never enough money for Mia. School is a great big drag. But her life changes when she has a chance meeting with a runaway golden retriever who's pregnant and she's run away from a puppy mill and is being chased by a man with a rope. And the man drags the dog away. And Mia's mission, with help from her best friend Cassie, their mission becomes to try to find 647, the number that was written on her plastic collar to find her again. And that leads them to an encounter with the puppy mill and unfolds from there. It's an adventure story. And what I like about it is that Mia and Cassie have to do some significant Nancy Drew-like sleuthing to overcome the obstacles put in their way.

SPEAKER_00:

I love it. What's the age group? What's the age group the book is aimed at?

SPEAKER_02:

Eight through 13.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, perfect.

SPEAKER_02:

However, that being said, a lot of the Amazon reviews are from adults who have loved the book.

SPEAKER_00:

That's great.

SPEAKER_02:

It's really great. Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

I may or may not have read every single diary of a wimpy kid when my kids were, my sons were into those, that book. They were not written for a grown man, but I well picture me reading Dog Man to my book.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh dog man.

SPEAKER_00:

I love dog. My nephews love dog men.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, my grandson loves dog man. Absolutely. We've seen the movie twice, and yes.

SPEAKER_00:

That's great.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

Where can people find this book, a dog named 647?

SPEAKER_02:

You should be able to find it at any local bookstore. Any bookstore should be able to order it. You can find it on any online bookseller as well.

SPEAKER_05:

Perfect.

SPEAKER_02:

If anyone wants a free ebook copy, they can simply check my author website. Do you want me to give you the website now?

SPEAKER_00:

Sure, and we'll have a link in the show notes.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. It's dr nancyk a y dot com.

SPEAKER_00:

That's awesome. Very generous.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, of course. And on the homepage, you'll find a link to get a free ebook. Like I said, the more kids who read this book, the better.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Awesome. Thank you. And and you've written a few books. One of the ones I was just wanted to ask about as well. It's called Speaking for Spot. Be the advocate for your dog. The ad be the advocate your dog needs to live a happy, healthy, longer life.

SPEAKER_03:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, and does what's the the kind of the Cole's notes or the short form of the book? Like what's the synopsis?

SPEAKER_02:

Sure. So the book talks about medical advocacy, medical advocacy skills, and it applies for people with dogs. Many people who have read it have said that they've taken what they learned from the book to their own medical appointments.

SPEAKER_05:

Oh.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes. All kinds of things, what to expect from your veterinarian. A second opinion is always okay. There's a whole chapter about euthanasia and how to figure out when and how vaccinations, all kinds of questions to ask your veterinarian. If your veterinarian is recommending a new prescription, these are the questions to ask about the new medication. So it's filled with advice, tidbits about how to be a good advocate for your dog.

SPEAKER_00:

That's awesome. And again, they people can perhaps find those in the same location.

SPEAKER_02:

Absolutely. Yes. Gotcha. Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

I have one question just back to your training as an internal medicine specialist. Just out of curiosity, just something maybe about that. Do you what are some of the some of your stories of note from working in that field? Do you have peace to mind?

SPEAKER_02:

Sure, I do. So what internal medicine specialists do, we get referrals from general practitioners to either try to diagnose what a problem is, or that we it the dog or cat comes with the diagnosis and they're asking us to treat it. And so we do a lot of diagnostic procedures. We do a lot of ultrasound and a lot of endoscopy. And that's where a tube is inserted into the gastrointestinal tract. For those of you who have had colonoscopies, you know what I'm talking about. But also the scope is inserted into the throat, down the esophagus, the stomach, and the small intestine. And I I have pulled out a lot of very interesting foreign bodies.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh my God.

SPEAKER_02:

From dog stomachs. Oh a very valuable diamond wedding ring.

SPEAKER_00:

What? Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02:

Was was one of those. There was another situation where it was really creepy scary because everything's magnified through this scope. And I went in and I saw arms and legs and a whole body. And then this brightly colored hair.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_02:

And pulled it out. Can you guess what it was?

SPEAKER_00:

As a troll doll.

SPEAKER_02:

A troll doll.

SPEAKER_00:

Jeez.

SPEAKER_02:

That's exactly right. Stories like that. We've we also did some work, pro bono work at a marine mammal center. Actually, it was a sea world situation, which I don't really condone any anymore. But we did some work on a killer whale where we passed the scope down the blowhole, which is the equivalent of the dog's windpipe, uh, to get some samples. And we did it on a whale that was wide awake. But they would train the whale to swim up and perch on the ledge. And then we would quickly try to do what we needed to do before the whale said, Nope, I'm out of here. And so we did that over and over again, trying to protect this very expensive equipment that we had right near the water.

SPEAKER_00:

Wow. Killer whales are no joke, they're huge, they're huge.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. So that was the most exotic species that I have worked with. A gorilla once, some large cats. It's interesting. It's such a great profession, such a fun profession. I can't say enough about it.

SPEAKER_00:

I can imagine some of the things you found. You and other internal medicine specialists could play bingo and break down some random things, and as they get pulled out, you play bingo on your sheet.

SPEAKER_02:

Exactly. Exactly. Underwear is very common. Socks.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, socks.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, rags, various food substances like bones, cobs.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, corn cobs. My brother's dog ate a corn cob and uh it got lodged. Yeah, yeah, like the whole thing. He survived.

SPEAKER_02:

Good. Yeah. Yep, it's a common problem.

SPEAKER_00:

So silly, it's like something you never would think, right?

SPEAKER_02:

Exactly. But it's just the right diameter to cause an obstruction.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

As our peach pits and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Bunsen had an obstruction five years ago before beaker. Yeah, I think pre-beaker. We used to give him these cow knuckles. We like we're not experts. We're this was probably stupid. And we gave and he would only eat the meat off of the cow knuckle. Yes. And then, of course, we weren't supervising him, which is the biggest problem, right? You have to supervise your dog if they're eating something like that. And he bit a big chunk of it off.

SPEAKER_02:

And that oh no.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, that bone got lodged. But so we took him in because he was obviously having trouble. And the vet's, I think it's moving because they did ultrasound one hour apart and it was moving through his digestive tract.

unknown:

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00:

And sure enough, we took him home and four hours later it like shot out of his butt.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, thank goodness.

SPEAKER_00:

It's a great story, but I thank goodness of that thing, and I was like, oh man, that must have not felt great. Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

But it saved him from having surgery.

SPEAKER_02:

So yes, absolutely. Can I tell you a sweet story about one of my kids? And this is in my mind the beauty of dogs and kids together. Um, he was about four years old when we lost our older dog. And we had a puppy, a golden retriever puppy at the time. And we were all very sad when Boomer, when we lost Boomer, and we decided we would bury him, and everyone was gonna go get a favorite thing of boomers to bring for the burial. And so we showed up with tennis balls, favorite foods, leash, the things that Boomer really loved. And we said, Where's Jake? That's the four-year-old. And we called him and he came running down the driveway with the puppy in his arms, ready to say, This is what I brought to Barry with Boomer because it's so special to him.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02:

Isn't that sweet?

SPEAKER_00:

That is very sweet. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Yeah. Kids and animals are a great combination.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Having pets with kids also it teaches kids about loss and resiliency. Yes. Kids go a long time before somebody important to them dies.

SPEAKER_03:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

And they don't build that experience. And so for some kids, they're just fine. And for others, it it really affects them without it hurts, yes. Without having that built formatively when they're young. Not that you wish death and destruction on children, but like it is it's inevitable. Yeah, it's something from having pets that builds builds resiliency in kids that absolutely the research points to. Yeah. That is a very sweet story. I usually end with a pet story from our guest's life. Do you have another like to share? Do you have a favorite pet story beyond that one?

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, I've got lots and lots of them. Let's see. This was a scary story. This one doesn't involve kids, though. Is that okay?

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. Um, you know how dogs, when they've been traumatized in some way, let's say they get bumped or they fall, what do they do? They get up and they shake it off, right?

SPEAKER_00:

They are right back in it.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes. And so we had a little dog named Lexi, who was maybe a border collie-ish mix, and we were on the California coast at a place called Goat Rock. And again, not supervising as adequately as we should have been, we were throwing a stick in both of our dogs at the time we're chasing it. And Lexi kind of wandered into the water to get a stick and got swept out by a massive riptide.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And she literally disappeared for probably 10 seconds. And when she reappeared, she was way out in the surf. And I wasn't going to go in because I was six months pregnant at the time. And I really didn't want my husband to go in. It just felt so dangerous. And there were some kids, some guys on the beach who were probably in their late teens, and they saw what happened. And the three of them just went right out into the water after her. And within about five minutes, which that scared the bejeebis out of me, but within about five minutes, Lexi found a way to just ride the waves in. She rode a wave in onto the shore and shook herself off. And then it was a matter of these guys getting in safely. And one of them almost did not make it. The surf was so rough, it literally tore his clothes off of his body.

SPEAKER_05:

Wow.

SPEAKER_02:

So that had a happy ending, but that was a really scary story with Lexi. Yeah. So that's a family story that was a scary one, but it did have a happy ending.

SPEAKER_00:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

And it it just tells you how chill dogs are about when things happen.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, tell me about it.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

I have on video, it's one of the one of our greatest stories about Bunsen was when we got Beaker. She was a little thing. She's a very small golden retriever, and we live on a farm in Canada. Coyote, a coyote attacked Beaker, just came out of nowhere. And Bunsen chased it off, right? He saved Beaker's life. And then he came back after like chasing off a coyote, and there's the pack is howling at us. And he's it was I was spooked. And he was like Mr. Nonchalant, like nothing. Just dude, let's go. Yes. He was like in no hurry to leave the area. He was great. And just I couldn't believe it. It was like a near-death experience, and he was just fine.

SPEAKER_02:

I I have a similar story to share, which is I was out in the pasture with my two dogs, Nellie, who was all of 11 pounds. Uh, she played Toto in the Wizard of Oz, a Wizard of Oz production. And Quinn, who is the dog I still have, he's 17 years old now and still going strong.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, good for him.

SPEAKER_02:

And I witnessed a coyote pounce on Nelly, and she screamed, and Quinn went into this very vocal sort of martial arts jumping in the air routine in front of this coyote. He it was bizarre. And the coyote dropped Nelly, the little dog, and ran. It was just so weird. He too saved her life.

SPEAKER_00:

I love it.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, me too. Dogs are great.

SPEAKER_00:

They are great.

SPEAKER_02:

They sure are.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, Nancy, we're at the end of our chat. Thank you so much for giving up your time to talk to us on the show.

SPEAKER_02:

It's been a pleasure.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it's been really informative and insightful, and of course, very with some sweet stories there. Thank you so much. You bet. We'll make sure that your author book page is in our show notes. That's great. Drnancyk.com. Yes. And then are you on social media anywhere else or just direct people to that link?

SPEAKER_02:

I would direct people to that link. And maybe you can also put up the link for a dog named 647. Sure. Like the Amazon site website.

SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. That'd be great.

SPEAKER_00:

We will make sure those, if you're listening, everybody, we'll make sure both of those links.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, and the other thing is my Substack. I write a Substack every week.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And so that's K K A Y N dotsubstack.com.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. Perfect. If you send me the link, yeah, the hyperlink, then when the we'll make sure that's in the show notes as well.

SPEAKER_02:

Great. Thanks, Jason, so much.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. Take care of yourself and thanks again for being a guest.

SPEAKER_02:

It's been a pleasure. Take care. Goodbye.

SPEAKER_00:

That's it for this week's show. Thanks for coming back week after week to listen to the Science Podcast. And a shout out to all the top dogs. That's the top tier of our Patreon community, The Pop Pack. You can sign up in our show notes. All right, Chris, let's hear those names that are part of the Top Dogs.

SPEAKER_01:

Amelia Fete, Ree Oda, Carol Pino, Jennifer Challen, Linnea Janet, Karen Cronister, Vicky Oteiro, Christy Walker, Sarah Brown, Wendy Diane, Mason and Lou, Helen Chin, Elizabeth Bourgeois, Marianne McNally, Katherine Jordan, Shelly Smith, Laura Steffenson, Tracy Leinbaugh, Ann Uchida, Heather Burback, Kelly, Tracy Halbert, Ben Rather, Debbie Anderson, Sandy Primer, Mary Rader, Bianca Hyde, Andrew Lynn, Brenda Clark, Brianne Hawts, Peggy McKeel, Holly Birch, Kathy Zirker, Susan Wagner, and Liz Button.

SPEAKER_00:

For science, empathy, and cuteness.