Ep. 15 Tennessee Supreme Court Rule 13

In this episode, we take a deep dive into Tennessee Supreme Court Rule 13 and court-appointed work. Our guests Lacy Wilber, Assistant General Counsel, and Amy Park, Support Analyst, for the Administrative Office of the Courts, discuss the ins and outs of filing fee claims. Lacy reviews specific rules surrounding expenses and experts, and Amy details the process of filing for reimbursement. This episode is intended for attorneys.

Produced by Nick Morgan

Transcript

00;00;00;10 - 00;00;21;25
Host
Welcome to Tennessee Court Talk. I'm your host, Barbara Peck. And today we are talking about appointed criminal work pursuant to rule 13. This podcast is intended for attorneys. And my guest today are Lacy Wilber, who is an assistant general counsel for the American Administrative Office of the courts, and Amy Park, who's our support analyst who works with real estate attorneys. Welcome to you both.

00;00;21;26 - 00;00;22;22
Lacy Wilber
Welcome. Thank you.

00;00;22;29 - 00;00;42;14
Host
So first. So, Lacy, under the Constitution, we have defendants have a right to an attorney and specific criminal and even some non criminal cases. And much of this work is done by the public defender's office, but not all of it. So how do attorneys who want to do appointed work from the courts in criminal cases? How do they get involved.

00;00;42;17 - 00;01;15;17
Lacy Wilber
Well, under we're going to talk about rule 13 when we're saying rule 13, it's Tennessee Supreme Court rule 13. And so rule 13, section one gives you a breakdown of all the cases that are covered with funding under rule 13. So, criminal court and once you've been charged, even, contempt, child support, contempt proceedings. And so if you want to start doing these things and it's a great thing for new attorneys to start doing, the rule requires the courts to keep a roster of attorneys.

00;01;15;17 - 00;01;32;13
Lacy Wilber
So new attorneys, practicing attorneys, they just need to go to the court or the courts assistant and ask to be put on the roster. And sometimes attorneys just sit in the courtroom and wait and just raise a hand if the judge says, is anybody want to take an appoint a case? So those are the main ways.

00;01;32;15 - 00;01;39;25
Host
Great. And what sort of information does an appointment order have or need to contain for an attorney to take a case?

00;01;39;26 - 00;02;01;16
Lacy Wilber
There are five things to make a valid appointment order. And so you need to have the style of the case. So it'll be state versus defendant. So you need the client's name. You need the case number. You need the judge finding that the client is indigent. You also need a statement appointing the attorney. And then you need the judge's signature.

00;02;01;16 - 00;02;06;27
Lacy Wilber
It can't be a clerk or an assistant who signs a letter saying you are appointed. It has to be the judge's signature.

00;02;06;29 - 00;02;09;23
Host
Okay. And where do you get that appointment order from?

00;02;09;26 - 00;02;27;15
Lacy Wilber
Different courts do it differently. Some judges have their own appointment orders, and they'll just send them out to you. Others have. Have you? The attorneys create them and just submit them. After you are notified that the judge is going to appoint you to a certain case. So it's just kind of depends on the judge's preference.

00;02;27;17 - 00;02;34;23
Host
Okay. So once an attorney gets appointed to a case, how do we know they're going to get paid from the EEOC?

00;02;34;26 - 00;02;59;07
Lacy Wilber
Rule 13, section one lists the, cases and the types of cases that will be paid if you do not see what you've been appointed for on rule 13, section one and two. Call us, give us a call, and we'll tell you whether it's covered or not. But if it's not in the rule, it's most likely not going to be provided funding viral 13.

00;02;59;09 - 00;03;03;18
Host
So, Amy, let me ask you. So you're in charge, what is ACAP?

00;03;03;21 - 00;03;28;16
Amy Park
So ACAP is the AOC claims and payment system. It's how you you need to register there after you get your appointment or even before you start taking appointments, you need to register with ACAP. You need to have an ACAP account. And you can do that by going to t quartz.gov and clicking on programs, going to the Indigent Defense page.

00;03;28;16 - 00;03;49;06
Amy Park
And you will see. Click here to log into ACAP that's going to take you to the cap login screen. And you can click the little link there that says Register for ACAP. You can also if you have trouble with that you can email ACAP at t n quartz.gov and I will respond or someone will respond with the link.

00;03;49;06 - 00;03;57;10
Amy Park
And how to do that. So if you have any questions please just go to acap@tncourts.gov send email and I'll be glad to.

00;03;57;15 - 00;03;59;00
Host
And what's the purpose of ACAP?

00;03;59;01 - 00;04;19;26
Amy Park
ACAP the purpose is to you will go there. You will register. You will go and create your claims. You will put in your hours, you will put in your appointment order that she's talking about. You will put in your receipts. I can add, do trainings and I can help you do all these. Do all this, navigate through this to you.

00;04;19;26 - 00;04;29;14
Amy Park
Get comfortable with doing it. That's really the purpose is that's how you're going to get paid. You're going to have to put your claim in to ACAP system.

00;04;29;20 - 00;04;36;28
Host
And when I go to set up my account in ACAP. is there anything I should have in front of me, like banking information or anything? Or is it you're.

00;04;36;28 - 00;04;58;16
Amy Park
Going to be sent that once you do your online registration with ACAP, you will receive an email that has a W9 and we need to get that back. You can email that back to acap@tncourts.gov. Please do not electronically sign it. You must physically sign it, scan it back, send it to us and we will get that to F&A.

00;04;58;18 - 00;05;07;12
Amy Park
It takes ten at least ten business days to process. Then we send you a username and a password and you can log in.

00;05;07;14 - 00;05;26;06
Lacy Wilber
And I just wanted to follow up that Amy is an awesome trainer and she does one on one training sessions. And she has this ability to actually with your permission, take over your computer and she can move your mouse around. And I just it's super helpful. And the people who have taken it said, why didn't I do this earlier? So I highly recommend that.

00;05;26;08 - 00;05;31;03
Host
And once you set up your ACAP account, do you have to do it again If you get a different case or..?

00;05;31;10 - 00;05;58;21
Amy Park
No, it's one time set up forever. So if you're not a brand new attorney and you think you might have submitted claims in the past either on paper or using our old AI system, you do not need to register again. So definitely get in contact with me by going to, sending an email at acap@tncourts.gov and I'll check and just see if you have an old registration that we can update. You won't need to register again.

00;05;58;21 - 00;06;01;07
Host
How much is an attorney going to get paid?

00;06;01;09 - 00;06;19;00
Lacy Wilber
Rule 13, section two sets the caps and what type of case and what court you're in generates the cap. So, felony and and General Sessions court is going to be less than a felony in circuit or criminal court. And those are all listed in rule 13, section two.

00;06;19;04 - 00;06;24;02
Host
Is there a cap like an hourly cap or is there a cap like for like total case amount?

00;06;24;03 - 00;06;48;05
Lacy Wilber
It's a it's a dollar amount. So you get $50 an hour, but then your cap is going to be say it's say it's 3000. It's a felony in criminal court. It's 3000. You also get reimbursed for your expenses. So you're going to have a $3,000 cap. But you can also get paid all of your expenses and go above the $3,000, because the cap is only for your hours. Worked.

00;06;48;07 - 00;06;56;07
Host
Okay. And what if I feel like there's a case that I'm just it's way over the cap? Is there a way to get paid above the cap?

00;06;56;10 - 00;07;22;13
Lacy Wilber
Sure. There's something called a complex and extended motion, and that's in rule 13, section two E, one capital E. And I'm getting really specific here because that subsection gives you the magic words that you need to put in your motion to the judge. And please, just if you don't hear anything else, the judge needs to sign the complex order on or before the day you submit your fee claim.

00;07;22;21 - 00;07;35;01
Lacy Wilber
If the judge signs a complex order after you submit your fee claim, you will be capped at the regular amount. You will not be paid at the complex amount. So that's very important. And I just really wanted people to to get that.

00;07;35;04 - 00;07;41;08
Amy Park
So is it. It's not really though. The submit date. I thought that it was the when the judge approved it, it.

00;07;41;08 - 00;08;16;00
Lacy Wilber
Says contemporaneously, the rule says contemporaneously. And this that wording comes from when they did it on paper fee claims on paper. So they would submit their complex motion at the same time they submitted their fee claim to the judge, and the judge would look at the fee claim and go, okay, yes. And so that's what that is. But because now it's electronic, the judge needs to see it before you submit your fee claim, because a cab requires you to have a signed complex order when you submit your fee claim because you're going to hit complex in a cab, so it will route properly and you can get paid at the complex amount.

00;08;16;02 - 00;08;21;10
Lacy Wilber
And a cab requires you to upload the signed complex order at that time. So does that answer your question?

00;08;21;10 - 00;08;22;28
Amy Park
Yeah okay. That does.

00;08;23;01 - 00;08;27;05
Host
So what what kind of cases are considered complex?

00;08;27;07 - 00;08;50;04
Lacy Wilber
Obviously First-Degree murders. Cases. And and it also is the word extended. So it's not just complex, it's a complex and extended and it can be one or the other. So you have dependency and neglect proceedings that can take years. And even if though and I hate to say run of the mill, but if it's just a regular, ordinary, dependency and neglect phase one.

00;08;50;04 - 00;08;59;28
Lacy Wilber
But it takes years. Go ahead and submit that complex motion and order to the judge. And, most of the time, the judges will all agree and sign the complex order.

00;09;00;02 - 00;09;05;03
Host
Okay. So the judge is the decision maker on who, if whether the case is complex 100%.

00;09;05;03 - 00;09;07;04
Lacy Wilber
It is not the EEOC, it is the judge.

00;09;07;12 - 00;09;18;16
Host
Good. And then you mentioned expenses. So what kind of expenses? The are you? Do you mean, do you mean they got my pencil? You mean mileage? Well, give me some examples of extras.

00;09;18;19 - 00;09;45;04
Lacy Wilber
Expenses are covered in rule 13, section four. And there's two different parts, and there's four A and four B. And this is very important for a our expenses that do not require prior approval by the judge and the EOC. And that includes mileage, copies, photocopies, either in-house or out of house like like Kinko's, long distance calls if you still do those and and parking.

00;09;45;04 - 00;10;05;22
Lacy Wilber
Yes. With a a total daily cap of $10 per day. And you do have to upload receipts for those. And the rule will tell you this. You need to upload a receipt for copies. You don't need to upload a receipt for. You'll just say I made 52 copies of this motion or this this final order. Now for B is the one that will trip everybody up.

00;10;05;22 - 00;10;30;02
Lacy Wilber
And so I appreciate this opportunity to talk about it. For B, expenses are any expenses that are not for A. So if you see if you are incurring an expense such as a medical record, inventory or a court order, those are the two biggest things. If you need a court reporter or you need medical records for B, you need to do a motion in order to the judge.

00;10;30;04 - 00;11;03;01
Lacy Wilber
And once the judge finds it, please forward the email. The motion and the order to indigent team at t n courts.gov for AOC prior approval. If you incur an expense a for b expense before you have AOC prior approval, the rule prohibits the AOC from reimbursing you for that expense. And we've had court reporters and thousands of dollars on doing a transcript from a DNN hearing, and the AOC could not pay it because the attorney did not get prior approval.

00;11;03;01 - 00;11;11;22
Lacy Wilber
So please hear me when I say if it's not a for a expense, it will be A for B, which requires prior approval from the judge and the AOC.

00;11;11;27 - 00;11;14;06
Host
Then give us an email address again where we're sure.

00;11;14;06 - 00;11;34;06
Lacy Wilber
It's indigent team at t n courts.gov. That's our new catchall email for all things indigent. If you have a question, if you have an invoice from an expert or an investigator or a court reporter that they all go through there and just questions on, can I, can I get paid for this? We we route everything through that.

00;11;34;06 - 00;11;37;26
Lacy Wilber
So we're trying to have it be just a one stop shop for anyone.

00;11;37;29 - 00;11;44;04
Host
So are my four B expenses going to be uploaded into ACAP at some point? Are they always just going to go to the email?

00;11;44;07 - 00;12;03;04
Lacy Wilber
So once you get so say you want a court reporter and you get the judge and the AOC, I will email it back to you and you'll see my signature on there approving a certain dollar amount. Then you give it to your reporter. Your reporter prepares the transcript or attends the hearing, and then, you'll get the invoice and all that.

00;12;03;11 - 00;12;28;26
Lacy Wilber
But if it's another expense that you incur. I'm trying to think right now. Okay. Medical records, if you have medical records, you pay for them upfront, but you've already gotten pre-approval under for B, you've got prior approval. So you would need to when you are claiming that as an expense, you'll need to upload the order with the AOC signature to show that you had prior approval, and you will need to upload the receipt showing that you paid the invoice.

00;12;28;28 - 00;12;50;10
Host
Okay, so in my my case file for this, for my specific indigent, I'm going to have materials coming from the judge, my appointment order, different motion approvals and I'm going to have approvals also coming from the AOC. So I just have to have two files or put them together. But I'm going to have approvals and different important things coming from two different groups once the judge and one from the AOC.

00;12;50;10 - 00;13;08;12
Host
And it's obviously important to keep track of both in case, make sure you get them. And then in case there's a question later or something that you have, here's my my prior approval from Lacie for my medical records or my court reporter or whatever. So what kind of expenses? Amy, get put up into ACAP.

00;13;08;15 - 00;13;27;17
Amy Park
So, as she spoke, parking is one. People forget that parking receipt all the time. All these receipts and documents we're talking about must be PDFs to, you know, you must have a way to to make them a PDF. A careful notes, it accept anything else.

00;13;27;17 - 00;13;29;03
Host
So I can't take a picture with my phone.

00;13;29;04 - 00;13;29;20
Amy Park
No.

00;13;29;22 - 00;13;31;08
Lacy Wilber
No pics, no word documents.

00;13;31;12 - 00;13;35;29
Amy Park
Has nobody got. You've got mileage. You've got, like I said, Parking.

00;13;35;29 - 00;14;01;11
Lacy Wilber
If you've got lodging. Yeah. That's a four day expense. If you are in state, you do not need prior approval. You need to do it at the. Yeah. Out of state travel is A4B and four B specifically says out-of-state travel. Okay. But so long as you are within the state rate of lodging in state for, say, you had to travel to go see your client in prison, just upload that receipt, showing that you paid the bill, and we will reimburse you when you submit your claim.

00;14;01;13 - 00;14;08;11
Host
So I can take a picture of my parking receipt, but I would need to convert it to a PDF, which which you can do with different tools. I'm not.

00;14;08;16 - 00;14;10;02
Amy Park
Sure exactly. Exactly.

00;14;10;02 - 00;14;10;29
Host
I need to figure it out.

00;14;10;29 - 00;14;13;07
Amy Park
I just wanted people to know that, you know, so.

00;14;13;07 - 00;14;25;24
Host
Don't send the picture I believe is if it's an iPhone, it's actually an HEIC file. Now, just to really annoyance and make life more difficult. But they can be converted to PDF. So you just need to figure out how to do that. And then you can just put them right into a cab. Right.

00;14;25;27 - 00;14;45;12
Amy Park
And and and under and, and there is a spot that people have trouble finding to put their receipts. But it's on your claim and activities tab where you're putting in your hours. And again, I cover that in my training, but there isn't. There is an upload receipt. Don't use the pre-approval button. Use the upload receipt button so that there's a difference there.

00;14;45;16 - 00;14;55;08
Host
So Lacy, what if my in my in my case I need experts and investigators. How would I get those approved in this process?

00;14;55;10 - 00;15;21;29
Lacy Wilber
Sure. That is totally covered by rule 13, section five. And the first thing I want to get out of the gate is that you need AOC prior approval, in addition to the judge's signature, before your expert or investigator can begin work. If you get just the judge's signature and you don't get AOC signature, and then we get an invoice for $5,000, the rule prohibits us from paying that $5,000 invoice.

00;15;21;29 - 00;15;55;29
Lacy Wilber
So I just please get AOC prior approval. Those investigators and experts who work frequently for the AOC rates, they know and they will probably tell you, but we do still have new people all the time, and sometimes it just falls through the cracks. But please get AOC prior approval, before your expert or investigator begins work. And so the biggest pitfall on rule 13, section five, is, oddly enough, people forget to put that their client is indigent in the motion or order, so that that's the number one reason why I have to return a motion of order.

00;15;56;01 - 00;16;26;24
Lacy Wilber
The second one is the bigger thing, and it's showing particularized need for your investigator or your expert. And, just these are you file these under seal and so they're confidential. So the facts are so key to show a particularized need for why you need an investigator or an expert. So don't hesitate to throw in all the facts, because we will never disclose or divulge anything that you put in a motion in order for, requesting for an expert or investigator.

00;16;26;26 - 00;16;55;06
Lacy Wilber
The the one that comes to mind is when people want to get, a psychological evaluation. They just say, I need a psych eval because I, I, I need that to be effective, an effective attorney. And no, that's not particularized. Need the ones that will be approved with flying colors are those that say my client has a history of schizophrenia and has been put in the hospital several times.

00;16;55;08 - 00;17;21;02
Lacy Wilber
At the time of this incident, he was having hallucinations. Currently, he is not understanding what I'm saying to him and it doesn't need to be all of those. It can even just be one of those to show a particularized need for an expert to get that information and the ones for, psych events. Those are the ones that I, I can't approve on the most part.

00;17;21;05 - 00;17;38;24
Lacy Wilber
They're the ones I deny the most frequently because they just don't have enough facts. And it's facts. It's facts. Facts, facts. So if you want a crime scene expert, tell me that there was a murder. Tell me that it involved a bloody crime scene and that they didn't find your client's fingerprint there, or that it shows self-defense.

00;17;38;24 - 00;17;53;27
Lacy Wilber
These are facts, and these are facts that show you have a particularized need for an expert or an investigator. And, that that's a real big hurdle. And it's it's a learning curve for attorneys. But once they get the gist of it, they know what the rule requires and then they get really good at it.

00;17;53;28 - 00;17;59;03
Host
So what kind of give me some common examples of what kind of experts and investigators we typically approve?

00;17;59;06 - 00;18;29;00
Lacy Wilber
Sure. Their rule has a list. Psychologists, psychiatrists, medical doctors who can be forensic, doctors to talk about causes of death and pathology. We have approved, accountants when clients are charged with fraud or theft of property or theft of services, we have the big one that's used all the time. And it's not in the rule because it's it's relatively newer is a forensic cell phone examiners or forensic computer experts.

00;18;29;00 - 00;19;04;29
Lacy Wilber
They are $195 an hour is their rate and they are approved. And those also, it's a learning curve for attorneys to show a particularized need because everybody right now has a cell phone. So just because your client has a cell phone doesn't mean you have a particularized need for a cell phone expert. So tell me that this is going to show, that there was some animosity, some text messages or images on the phone are going to show animosity, which might support a self-defense, claim or that something was consensual because of the back and forth.

00;19;04;29 - 00;19;27;00
Lacy Wilber
Those things. And just and I've had one where it was pornographic images and he was saying he didn't download those because they were downloaded at a time that he wasn't in possession of his computer, just facts. It just all relates back to the facts. So just because you have, a cell phone does not mean you have a particularized need for an expert.

00;19;27;02 - 00;19;48;15
Lacy Wilber
And then the other experts, I think they're crime scene experts. Those are an accident reconstruction. Those are 115. Those are very common in, DUI. And also, when someone dies in a DUI accident, they want to, see if there was something else other than the defendant that was the cause of that accident.

00;19;48;17 - 00;19;52;28
Host
So how do you go about starting your request for an expert or an investigator?

00;19;53;00 - 00;19;55;01
Lacy Wilber
Are you asking who where you go to the.

00;19;55;01 - 00;19;58;16
Host
Fit through ACAP? Is it through a motion to the court, like,

00;19;58;18 - 00;20;18;20
Lacy Wilber
It is a motion. So most people out there will have names of investigators or experts. I have names I can provide them. We don't put them on a list on the EOC. I think it's because we don't want to be seen to be recommending anybody services, because we're neutral on that and we don't vouch for their the quality of their services.

00;20;18;20 - 00;20;40;04
Lacy Wilber
But I can give you without a recommendation, I can give you names of experts and investigators. You have to have your expert or investigator within 150 miles of the courthouse. If you find someone outside, you have to show the reasons why you what efforts you made to find someone within the 150 miles. So, I think of you.

00;20;40;04 - 00;20;56;11
Lacy Wilber
Just ask a colleague who has done this a while. They can give you a name, I can give you a name. And you first need to ask that person if they will work for the rule 13 rate. Whatever is provided. If they say yes, they will give you probably an estimate because they know how long it would take to do that.

00;20;56;13 - 00;21;27;10
Lacy Wilber
And that's important because in the order the judge has to approve a specific dollar amount. So it would be $195 an hour to do cell phone forensic examination, up to $5,750. That that's that's quite common. So you get you get your expert or investigator first. You put their information. You have to have their CV if it's an expert or their license, if they're an investigator that has to be sent along and and then do the motion, do the order.

00;21;27;12 - 00;21;54;23
Lacy Wilber
Once the judge signs the order, please email the motion order CV and any affidavit to indigent team at ten courts.gov. And I will review for compliance with rule 13. And if it meets the requirements, I will put my signature on it with the approval dollar amount. Now sometimes I will approve an initial payment amount and this is true for all psychologists.

00;21;54;23 - 00;22;20;23
Lacy Wilber
We have a limit an initial limit of $3,500. So if your judge approves $5,000, I'm going to approve an initial amount of 3500. And then the expert just needs to contact me before they go over that limit. And I write that out in the approval. I say expert must contact AOC before going over $3,500 limit. So, pay attention to the words that I use.

00;22;20;26 - 00;22;40;18
Lacy Wilber
I usually will, make it very clear that I'm not approving the full amount, but if I don't, that doesn't mean that you can't come back and ask for the remaining funds. So if I limit it to 3500 and then you have to go to trial, but all of that 3500 has been used up, you still have 1500 on that order.

00;22;40;20 - 00;22;53;03
Lacy Wilber
And so you just come back and say, we're going to trial, and I release the $1,500. It'll be a second signature on that order, but that will show prior approval, and we will pay the full 5000 on that.

00;22;53;06 - 00;23;01;03
Host
So what if I want a particular type of expert and it's not initially, approved. Is there an appeals process?

00;23;01;05 - 00;23;22;15
Lacy Wilber
There is an appeals process. Usually I will tell you what you need to do to fix your motion in order so that it will be in compliance with the rule. And like I said, it's like put an indigent statement in there or put it a approved dollar amount. The judge has to approve a specific dollar amount if it is something that you are just dead set on and you're like, this is right.

00;23;22;17 - 00;23;44;14
Lacy Wilber
I'm going to the mattress on this one. You, just let me know. I will tell you when I get back to you and say, this doesn't meet the requirements of rule 13. I give you the option and I say you can appeal this to the director and to the chief justice. So it's an internal process, but we will, get that before the director and the chief justice and the Chief Justice's determination is final.

00;23;44;16 - 00;24;05;27
Lacy Wilber
And we also have to go through that process. If you're asking for a type of an expert that we've never approved before and we don't have an hourly rate, it may just be if you've met all the requirements, except for the fact that we don't know how much the Chief Justice wants to set the hourly rate at. And so that will also and we ask that you, allow two week turnaround time on that.

00;24;05;27 - 00;24;11;29
Lacy Wilber
So just be aware of that timeline if you do want to take it to the chief or if it's an expert that we've not approved before.

00;24;12;02 - 00;24;17;17
Host
And give me some examples of like different kind of experts that need to go to the chief for the first time, like in the last.

00;24;17;17 - 00;24;19;08
Lacy Wilber
Couple of years. Thank goodness.

00;24;19;10 - 00;24;20;26
Host
Isn’t there one about music?

00;24;20;29 - 00;24;50;14
Lacy Wilber
There was a rap music expert that went to the chief. There was what did I just have? It was a field sobriety officer. He was an he was a police officer for a long time and taught his state academy, on field sobriety tests. And this defendant wanted, to show that the officer did not do the field test correctly, and therefore, they didn't have enough to to arrest him and search his car.

00;24;50;14 - 00;24;55;01
Lacy Wilber
I think it was going to basically be used for a suppression hearing and shoe print. We've had a shoe print.

00;24;55;04 - 00;25;15;24
Host
Interesting. So, with the 150 miles, if I want, if I like an expert who's more than 150 miles and I worked before, that's. So I feel like is is the person I is, he's better or she's better for whatever reason. How do I explain that additional detail? I just I'm asking for an exception to 150 miles, or how would that work?

00;25;15;26 - 00;25;24;21
Lacy Wilber
The rule just says you have to set forth the efforts made to find an expert within 150 miles. It doesn't talk about I prefer this person, and.

00;25;24;23 - 00;25;38;09
Host
I think they're better. Like for some reason, there could be a fingerprint analysis within 150 miles. But I want this person because I think that they're different, better in their approach. Whatever.

00;25;38;11 - 00;26;04;24
Lacy Wilber
Well, there's only one fingerprint expert that I know of in person that wasn't a good example that beyond the 150 miles. But that does happen preferences. The rule really doesn't speak to preferences, but, I in those instances when you're like, this person has 30 years of, of, specializing in this one small area that I really, really need makes this person much more, necessary.

00;26;04;24 - 00;26;15;15
Lacy Wilber
And I have a particular as a need for this particular person. So to meet the requirements of the rule, you have to say, I tried these people, I tried this, but I want to go with this person.

00;26;15;17 - 00;26;24;17
Host
And again, so this is going to be an example to is this is just an expense at the end of the day. So I am going to pay this person and then get reimbursed with all my prior approvals.

00;26;24;22 - 00;26;45;29
Lacy Wilber
No, this is completely different. So experts and investigators, we will pay them directly okay. No, we pay them directly. And again it's just really just important that prior approval you should see the judge's signature. And then you need to see my signature. Then you can send it to your expert and investigator. They begin work. And then what we have a process.

00;26;46;02 - 00;27;10;03
Lacy Wilber
It's an auditing process. And you as an attorney are part of this auditing process. The expert or investigator will give you their invoice and you just review it and say this. This person did perform these activities that totals this dollar amount. You physically sign the invoice and then you forward the invoice and the order with my signature on it to indigent team at ten courts.gov.

00;27;10;06 - 00;27;14;21
Lacy Wilber
And they will process the invoice and pay the expert an investigator directly.

00;27;14;21 - 00;27;24;01
Host
And is there a delay. So at what point do I submit that when they do the work? Or let's say my trial is not for six months, but my expert has done their initial analysis?

00;27;24;02 - 00;27;46;09
Lacy Wilber
Well, here's the kicker is that unlike attorneys, attorneys can only file one fee claim per case. Experts and investigators can interim bill. So we have some who submit invoices monthly, some who do it every six months. Some don't bill until the very end of the case. They also don't have ACAP like the attorneys do on fee claims.

00;27;46;09 - 00;28;03;03
Lacy Wilber
So if you're on, a felony AB in criminal court and you've got a complex cap of $6,000, your investigator can go well above $6,000 on an investigation for a First-Degree murder. And it the rules what the rule is.

00;28;03;06 - 00;28;22;24
Host
They're just different. So so they can so they could bill they do the bulk like a, you know, a psychological analysis that does the bulk of it does their whole report. They can go ahead and bill and then six months later they come back and testify at trial. They can bill separate. And they may never get to trial because the report may say something that makes us not want to go to trial it.

00;28;22;24 - 00;28;32;00
Lacy Wilber
Yeah, it's quite common for the, psychologist to submit an invoice after doing the initial evaluation and then coming back, if it if it does go to trial, that's quite an.

00;28;32;00 - 00;28;38;13
Host
I would think a lot of experts, the same thing might do their initial report and then if they actually come and testify it's a separate file.

00;28;38;13 - 00;29;01;20
Lacy Wilber
So and you can file motions for additional funds. So if you're an expert or investigator uses up the entirety of the dollars on the the ordered approved by the judge and the AOC file a motion for additional funds and just I we kind of ask tell us what they did to use up the initial amount and then what activities remain to be done.

00;29;01;23 - 00;29;14;09
Lacy Wilber
It doesn't have to be super detailed. I just want to have something there. As a steward of the state's funds to show why we are giving out additional funds, but those are those are totally allowed and quite common.

00;29;14;11 - 00;29;17;25
Host
Good to know anything else about experts investigators we should know?

00;29;17;27 - 00;29;20;13
Lacy Wilber
No. Just please get prior approval from the AOC.

00;29;20;16 - 00;29;40;27
Host
Prior approval from the AOC and from the judge. Yes. Two step approval process. Yes. So in just in an example format, like how often in the case are people logging into account to log their hours or updates? You people usually wait until the end or are they doing it? Every time I have an hour I'm in the camp and logging.

00;29;40;29 - 00;29;41;18
Host
Just give me.

00;29;41;18 - 00;29;59;03
Amy Park
There's not a wrong way to do it and it's kind of what you want to do. I tell people though, you can you can start all of your cases. They'll hang out there in the new status under your active work tab, and you can just go back in. And I think it's a good way to keep track of them and go in and add your hours.

00;29;59;03 - 00;30;22;08
Amy Park
You don't forget anything. Because if you sit down one day and put in all your hours and let's say you forget a whole month in a daisy to skip a page in these day and in cases especially, and you submit that claim and we pay you and then you realize it, we we don't pay you anymore. We can't do anything about that.

00;30;22;08 - 00;30;36;09
Amy Park
You've lost a whole month. So I think that's why it's good to to start your claim and kind of go in every day. But people do it differently because some people have lots of cases. Some people get appointed once in a blue moon.

00;30;36;09 - 00;30;58;23
Host
So so it just depends. But yeah, but you can't you can't get down there if you have the option once you've opened your case, if you have a particular week, let's say you have a, you know, a hearing on your appointed case on Thursday. You've worked on it quite a bit. Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, you've had some expenses. You can go in there on Friday and get everything uploaded without actually being done and submitting your case.

00;30;58;23 - 00;31;13;15
Host
You're just like, you know, this is where we are. We did a lot this week because it's we got a hearing now. It's going to be another month maybe before we come back to it. So you go ahead. You log your hours, you get your expenses way before you lose your parking receipt. Right.

00;31;13;17 - 00;31;29;19
Amy Park
Right. And and you have enough information to start and save a case. If you have an appointment order in front of you. You don't have to have a single hour that you've worked on that case. If you have that appointment order, I can show you how to create that claim. That's enough information to start your claim.

00;31;29;22 - 00;31;32;04
Host
Okay, so you just start your claim and then they get saved.

00;31;32;05 - 00;31;32;29
Amy Park
And then you.

00;31;33;00 - 00;31;46;27
Host
Log back in. It's the months later, we've had another hearing. Something has happened. We've got more work to do. It's there going to be there for you on ACAP, all your previous expenses and hours, and we'll all be logged in there for you. And you can just continue to add to it until you're ready.

00;31;47;00 - 00;31;49;29
Amy Park
And there's like I said, there's not a wrong way to do it is what you want to do.

00;31;50;02 - 00;32;07;14
Lacy Wilber
Yeah. And the reason why Amy said if you skip a month, you're you can't do another. We can't give another payment. That's that comes from the rule. You can only submit one fee claim per case per court. So if you try to submit another one that's called interim or duplicate billing. And that's not allowed by the rule.

00;32;07;17 - 00;32;14;22
Host
Okay. So you can continue to update your claim, but you're only going to submit it one time. And then you have one shot. So you don't want to submit two or right.

00;32;14;23 - 00;32;15;28
Amy Park
You want to be very careful.

00;32;15;28 - 00;32;28;11
Host
You want to be done. Because once you submit then the case is considered done. But if you miss something because you didn't continue. So maybe you can always save and just wait to submit.

00;32;28;13 - 00;32;35;03
Lacy Wilber
It as ACAP automatically save. Don't you have a have to hit the save button if you enter an activity, can you just close.

00;32;35;03 - 00;32;56;22
Amy Park
Out when you have enter your claimant? When you're on the Claimant Activities tab and you are entering all your activities every time you click that add button, it's like clicking save. If you see it, add under hours or expenses. It saved it it. But what she's talking about I think, is you're talking about the properties tab where you actually put in the client name, the case number.

00;32;56;25 - 00;33;10;12
Amy Park
If you go back to that tab and make any kind of change, you need to hit save, it does not automatically save on the properties tab. Again, I know it's kind of hard to explain this, but I cover that in my training. And you know.

00;33;10;14 - 00;33;12;26
Lacy Wilber
Something I thought you had to do on the last activity?

00;33;12;29 - 00;33;37;28
Amy Park
Well, it's it's no you do not. If you're hitting add on the claimant activities tab, that is like hitting save yes but properties page. But if you go back and go oh I've uploaded the wrong judge or the he's not a judge anymore because that's going to happen. You and you change that judge and you don't hit save before you go to the action button and say submit. It may not submit to that. Judge that you had just changed it to.

00;33;38;01 - 00;33;52;01
Lacy Wilber
And we're talking about tabs, properties tab, audit activity tabs. Once you get in a cab and just look around at the and just the basics, you'll understand what we're talking about when we say tab. So it's not it's not that intimidating.

00;33;52;01 - 00;34;12;18
Host
So if I have a case that's long several years, do I still always have to just submit once you do? So I could be getting reimbursed from parking from two years ago. Yeah. Okay. So you just wait the once. Yes. But Lacy is there. It's a such thing. Is waiting too long to submit your claim.

00;34;12;18 - 00;34;34;26
Lacy Wilber
Yes. Please hear me. Please hear me. You have 180 days from the date of disposition in which to file your fee. Claim. This is not six months. Don't count on your fingers. Because if you count on your fingers seven months out of the year, you will be two days late and you will miss out. We cannot pay it at all, and you'll get $0 on a case that you've worked on for years.

00;34;34;29 - 00;35;07;05
Lacy Wilber
So the question becomes, what is a disposition? And it's kind of a moving target. But for a good rule of thumb, it's your last in court date where something happened that the judge entered an order. So that's going to be criminal circuit court entry of a guilty plea. That's a disposition. If you're in general session, a bind over that disposition, dependency and neglect, phase one, you're going to have the adjudication and then you're going to have the disposition, the disposition in phase one.

00;35;07;07 - 00;35;27;16
Lacy Wilber
And please feel free to contact us if you have any questions about what a disposition is. But if you go by the general rule of thumb that the last in court date is the disposition, you should be, you should be golden. But again, please feel free to call us. I would rather you call me on the front end, then try and get it worked in after the fact.

00;35;27;16 - 00;35;38;02
Lacy Wilber
When you've submitted beyond the 180 day claim because, there is nothing, that I can do or anyone that the AOC can do to pay a claim that was submitted beyond 180 day.

00;35;38;02 - 00;35;41;20
Host
And how much, how often do you have to deny a claim? Because it's more than 180 days.

00;35;41;20 - 00;35;55;25
Lacy Wilber
I do it every day. Unfortunately, and that's why I'm appreciative of this opportunity to get this information out, because it really is upsetting to to do that and have to talk to an attorney who's worked for years on a case and will and will not get paid.

00;35;55;27 - 00;35;58;19
Host
So what if I appeal to the Chief Justice?

00;35;58;19 - 00;36;06;10
Lacy Wilber
So the rule does not give an appeal process for a, missing 180 day deadline?

00;36;06;12 - 00;36;24;02
Host
Okay. So we've given some of the examples we've had have been fairly straightforward so far. But what if my client has multiple charges. Is that a multiple fee claims? What if how do I determine the disposition on those. What happens with a multiple charge or a more complex case?

00;36;24;08 - 00;36;46;29
Lacy Wilber
That's a very good question. And it does happen quite frequently that people will pick up charges. You'll be appointed to one defendant, and then they continue to pick up charges as you're representing them in the first ones. So rule 13 says you can only submit one fee claim per case. And it's not really the legal definition that you see in, opinions by the Supreme Court.

00;36;46;29 - 00;37;09;02
Lacy Wilber
It is if you have a defendant who has multiple indictments against him, and you're representing him on all the different indictments, but they are disposed on the same date in front of the same judge, you will have one fee claim, even though you have different indictment numbers. Now let's switch over to dependency and neglect, because this is a question that asked a lot.

00;37;09;04 - 00;37;40;29
Lacy Wilber
If, you have a father who has one petition against him, but then picks up another petition for a separate child, but they are disposed on the same date in front of the same judge, you will have one claim. And but if you only have one petition, so you have one petition against and there are multiple siblings and the siblings are adjudicated on separate dates, you still only have one claim because you only have one petition. They make sense on that one.

00;37;41;02 - 00;37;50;20
Host
Okay. So multiple petitions multiple siblings on multiple days will get me multiple claims. Yes. Yes. If any of those things are not true it's only one claim that's.

00;37;50;27 - 00;37;51;26
Lacy Wilber
Perfect.

00;37;51;28 - 00;38;00;28
Host
Okay. And and the same thing with picking up charges. It's all going to be dependent on if it's before the same judge being sort of adjudicated at the same time.

00;38;00;28 - 00;38;26;04
Lacy Wilber
Yes. And if you, if they're like not particularly complex or extended, but by combining those into one claim, it is going to put you above the regular cap. You can submit a motion for extended and complex and say we. I'm having to combine all of these into one fee claim. Putting me over the cap. I ask that you declare this complex and extended and and the judges usually will do that because they understand.

00;38;26;06 - 00;38;41;09
Host
So what a lot of cases I mean, well, just about every criminal case starts in general sessions and then moves to criminal or circuit court, the state level court. So is that is that move ending one case and starting another, or how does that each.

00;38;41;09 - 00;39;04;10
Lacy Wilber
Court is a different fee claim and it's I'm glad you talked about the differences between sessions. So you representing client and sessions. There's a bind over that's a disposition. Submit your fee claim you are no longer that person's attorney a record because the case has concluded. And that's in the rule two. It says you are attorney of record until, the case is concluded or you're allowed to withdraw.

00;39;04;13 - 00;39;28;19
Lacy Wilber
So even though you representing him in sessions, it's not a guarantee that you're going to deal with them. If there is an indictment. And so there's that period between the bind over and before an indictment is put down. The rule does not provide funding for that gap in time. So the funding for circuit and criminal starts again with the issuance of an indictment or presentment.

00;39;28;22 - 00;39;41;17
Lacy Wilber
But if you represent them at bond hearings, in between general sessions and the indictment, the rule does not provide funding for that. And a lot of people just do it pro-bono, which, which I think is wonderful. But, the editorial doesn't provide funding.

00;39;41;18 - 00;40;01;24
Host
Okay. So I've, I've represented someone in sessions. They've been bond over. So I the case is, disposed. So I go ahead and file my, my fee claim if there's anything in between before they're actually indicted in circuit, then there is no payment for that. If I want to represent them again, I believe in their case. I'm just interested.

00;40;01;24 - 00;40;07;14
Host
I want to do it again. Then I have to go to the new judge in circuit criminal court and get a new appointment order.

00;40;07;22 - 00;40;30;21
Lacy Wilber
Yes. And most judges, for economy sake, will see who represented the, the defendant and sessions and keep the same attorney. So it I don't know that you have to go to the judge and ask to be or if the judge will just automatically do that. Each each judge does things differently. But for the most part, if you represent them in sessions that the circuit of criminal justice will, court will probably appoint you again.

00;40;30;23 - 00;40;33;25
Host
I don't want to.

00;40;33;27 - 00;40;41;21
Lacy Wilber
That is up to the judge. And the judge has the ability to appoint you. I don't know of any way to.

00;40;41;23 - 00;40;55;26
Host
To let the judge know. For whatever reason, I don't want to be involved in there. You can't just probably just said. I mean, I could probably send, like, a letter if it if it's, you know, I've taken on some private work that's just overwhelming or some circumstances change there. Actually, just say you're I'm not going to be able to do this.

00;40;55;26 - 00;40;56;09
Host
So yeah.

00;40;56;09 - 00;41;11;22
Lacy Wilber
You reminded me that in the rule I think it's in in 13 section one, it says the judge can appoint a private attorney unless the attorney shows it would be. I don't think it uses the word undue hardship, but it's something along the lines that you have, such a heavy caseload that you can't take.

00;41;11;22 - 00;41;33;26
Host
Something has changed in between because some cases can take a while. Yeah. Like six months ago I was in, you know, sessions and was ready to take on a case, but I'm not. So what if I'm a what if I'm a newer attorney and I'm in general sessions and I, you know, raising my hand like what I'm going to do case and I do I get appointed charges have been added all of a sudden this is getting very complex.

00;41;33;26 - 00;41;47;10
Host
His person is bound over and I'm appointed again in, in criminal court or state court, but I'm feeling maybe a little overwhelmed. So it's beyond me. Is it something that happens or it's just get a mentor and go do your job?

00;41;47;18 - 00;42;05;08
Lacy Wilber
I don't see that part of it. So I just see the fee claims when they're so I don't see any of the I don't want to call it drama, but any interactions between the judge and the attorney, and I'm sure those things happen. And, and I think exactly like what you say a new attorney and then you get into circuit or criminal court and this guy all of a sudden all of us all of a sudden has ACAPital case.

00;42;05;08 - 00;42;05;24
Lacy Wilber
Let's see.

00;42;05;24 - 00;42;07;07
Host
I thought I was doing I.

00;42;07;07 - 00;42;07;20
Lacy Wilber
Thought I was.

00;42;07;20 - 00;42;18;10
Host
Doing robbery. Yeah. It turns out that someone has now died and now we have. So we found something and now we have a second to the charger. Yes. Or something. So you just have to. You can.

00;42;18;12 - 00;42;31;02
Lacy Wilber
I think judges and this is totally personal opinion, but I think judges are very attuned to, an attorney's ability and workload and don't want to overload an attorney and don't want to overload the system.

00;42;31;04 - 00;42;47;03
Host
Okay, so what happens to my fee claim after I have a disposition? I have filled out all of my work and I'm happy with my claim. I've got all my receipts in all my prior approvals for my for B claims. It's all ready to go. I'm ready to press the submit button. What happens to my claim?

00;42;47;03 - 00;43;16;09
Lacy Wilber
Then why don't you submit the, submit button? If it is a claim for over $400, it will go to the judge. And the judge will review the fee claim and approve it. Or maybe reduce some time or return it to the attorney to say you're asking for too much for this suppression hearing. And then once the judge reviews it, it comes to the AOC and we have AOC auditing staff and they will review and they look for the five things on an appointment order.

00;43;16;09 - 00;43;39;03
Lacy Wilber
They look for the receipts, they look for mileage on mileage. You have to give the the starting city and the destination city. If you're not putting that in there, will they'll return it to you. So attorneys get a feel for it in the end. But it's just judge then AOC audit staff. And then once AOC audits it, it goes to FNA for payment.

00;43;39;03 - 00;43;44;02
Lacy Wilber
And I highly recommend direct deposit. So you will get your paycheck much faster.

00;43;44;05 - 00;43;52;19
Host
And when you say either the judge or the audit staff at AOC, if they are sending something back to me, how how am I knowing this? How am I getting in? That's a.

00;43;52;19 - 00;43;59;03
Lacy Wilber
Great question. So it's going to be in the returned claims tab, which is Amy, is that.

00;43;59;05 - 00;44;19;20
Amy Park
It's on your active work tab. You have if you're an attorney on your active work tab, you have three columns claims, return claims and preapproval. And you will not get any kind of email or any kind of notification that you have a return claim. You need to click on that return claim tab, and your claims will be there that have been returned to you.

00;44;19;23 - 00;44;38;29
Amy Park
You can also view your return claims in the search tab, but if you open a claim in a search tab, it's in a read only view, so you cannot edit that claim. You can not submit it back. So you can say you have returned claims, but you cannot do anything with them. You need to be under the return claim tab.

00;44;39;06 - 00;44;53;03
Host
So if I, if I, you know, I submit my claims and then I don't know, two weeks later I want to go check on it. And I go to that return claims that go be able to see that it's been approved by the judge and is moved to the AOC. Like, what can I get that be? So I can see that.

00;44;53;03 - 00;45;09;04
Amy Park
So you can see all of that by opening up your claim and go into your history comments tab. That's inside of your claim. Inside your claim, there's a history comments tab and it will say why your claim was returned. You will be able to tell if it was returned by an auditor, or if it's drawn by the judge.

00;45;09;07 - 00;45;17;04
Amy Park
You'll be able to see what day the judge approved it, what day the auditor returned it to you. The type of information. Yes.

00;45;17;04 - 00;45;33;19
Lacy Wilber
And I just want to add one thing there. If you add a comment back, like you want to say something on the claim and answer to somebody's question, when you add a comment, it doesn't go to any email inbox. It stays on your claim. So a lot of times attorneys are like, what's the status of this claim?

00;45;33;21 - 00;45;46;19
Lacy Wilber
And we never get an email. So it's better to email an indigent team because the comment on the history comments just stays in the in the claim, and we won't see it until we actually get to the auditing stage.

00;45;46;21 - 00;46;05;20
Host
Okay, so I can see if the judge approved it or the judge had a question or a judge denied it, or so if a judge, you know, if I bill 30 hours and the judge thinks it was more like 20, does it automatically gets reduced to 20, or do I get to like or is he waiting for me to approve the 20?

00;46;05;20 - 00;46;07;19
Host
Like what happens at that point?

00;46;07;22 - 00;46;09;23
Amy Park
So you're asking if it's been returned, right?

00;46;09;23 - 00;46;23;03
Host
It's been returned to the judge isolated for a further 30 hours. And the judge has said I, this is 20, this is 20 hours of work. What do I need to say? Yeah, okay, fine, I agree. Or is it just going to be automatically going to be reduced and that's it?

00;46;23;04 - 00;46;43;05
Amy Park
No you're going to he's telling you the judge is telling you take it down to this amount and I'll pay it a lot and resubmit it back to the judge. A lot of times attorneys will call me or they'll call Lacy, maybe and say, why is the judge telling me? And I will tell them, you need to to talk to the judge about this.

00;46;43;05 - 00;46;58;12
Amy Park
I can't do anything about it. And I do tell them they can talk to Lacy about it, but she's probably going to tell them the same day. Judge Beth. But if the judge returned that claim to you, I can't. You're if he tells you to redo something by five hours and you need to reduce it by five hours and resubmit it.

00;46;58;12 - 00;47;05;03
Host
Okay, so then I need to resubmit. There's a step for me. I need to resubmit it. I can't just roll my eyes and walk away. Yeah I think that I'm going to get 20 hours.

00;47;05;07 - 00;47;20;04
Amy Park
It's I mean, you can and it's going to sit there but and not get paid. But you need to fix it and resubmit it. Or if you want to put a comment on there back to the judge and resubmit it back to him. That's between you and him but or her. But I'm not. You know, I'm not telling you to do that.

00;47;20;04 - 00;47;24;12
Amy Park
I'm going to tell you to take that five hours off and resubmit it to the judge.

00;47;24;15 - 00;47;41;16
Host
Okay? So then it gets resubmitted. The judge approves, not approves. I can see that in my history. And then it moves automatically to the EEOC. Then they'll be able to see, okay, AOC so I'll know I made one hurdle. It's gone over the judges. A judge has approved my claim and now the AOC has it. And they could send it back for.

00;47;41;16 - 00;47;58;14
Host
So if it's something like I didn't have a receipt or something, they question can then what happens? I just take it I and I don't have it. I mean, this is, you know, a parking receipt from two years ago. I meant and I it's gone now, so I just then delete that parking or what happened there.

00;47;58;19 - 00;48;09;28
Amy Park
So, Lacy, do you know for sure if an auditor opened up a claim and there was a parking on there and there was no receipt, I think they just strike it off. I don't know that for sure.

00;48;10;04 - 00;48;21;26
Lacy Wilber
Yeah, they usually don't return a claim just for parking just because if you made that mistake, we're not going to send it back because we try to keep claims moving. But if it were, then yes, you would need to see what.

00;48;21;26 - 00;48;22;25
Host
Is more significant.

00;48;22;25 - 00;48;24;26
Lacy Wilber
If it was something like lodging or something and.

00;48;24;29 - 00;48;41;16
Host
Know my court reporter doesn't have pre-approval. Yes. And that would be sent back and I would have well if it’s approved. Maybe. I don't know how I would make up for that because I didn't get it, but but if somehow I'm arguing I do have a letter from Lacy or something, I would have an opportunity to to go ahead and fix that.

00;48;41;20 - 00;48;59;04
Amy Park
But it's it's the same thing when a auditor returns it or when a judge returns it. You need to read that history comment. If you don't understand it, please call me or email the the indigent team box or the accept mailbox and someone will get back with you and help you understand that message. But yes, you need to do something.

00;48;59;04 - 00;49;02;22
Amy Park
You need to act on it and you need to resubmit or you're never going to be paid.

00;49;02;22 - 00;49;16;16
Host
And so at this point, what is happening to me 180 days, is it 880 days if if I've submitted and I've gotten it back, is 180 still running or is it because I submitted once? It's okay.

00;49;16;16 - 00;49;35;19
Lacy Wilber
Once you hit submit, the first time you hit submit, that stops the running of the 180 days. So if your initial submission was within the 180 days, if we return it to you and you don't see it for six months, and then you resubmit it six months later, it's still going to be timely because you originally submitted it within 180 days.

00;49;35;24 - 00;49;54;27
Lacy Wilber
But and this happened a lot. People don't check their return claims tab. I tell them to check it at least like once a week or at least once a month, because we see claims that have been in their return claims tab for six months. I've seen a year. I've even seen two years. So, just check that return claims.

00;49;54;29 - 00;50;12;14
Host
Okay, but I do have the opportunity. Okay, so now in my hypotheticals, what if you have a Court of Appeals work? So I've gone with an a client, I've represented them in court. We did whatever. But we want to appeal. Or had or I just want to do appellate work. How do I get appointed for appellate work?

00;50;12;16 - 00;50;37;16
Lacy Wilber
Well, your appointment at the lower court. At circuit court? Criminal court, or even in, juvenile court for a DNN. That appointment order will follow you all the way up to the Tennessee Supreme Court. So you do not need to get a new appointment order at each stage at each court, because the rule says you are appointed to represent that client, including all appeals, or until you are allowed to withdraw.

00;50;37;19 - 00;51;00;09
Lacy Wilber
So you are the attorney of record, until it's finally closed after an appeal. And I just that brings up another thing is that, you know, each court is a separate fee claim. So if you've got your trial court and your jury verdict has come down and you want to appeal the jury verdict, your notice of appeal is the disposition.

00;51;00;11 - 00;51;21;19
Lacy Wilber
Submit your free claim within 180 days of the notice of appeal. Some people wait until the Supreme Court issues a mandate, and that is well beyond the hundred and 80 days, because that's a separate court. So if you go to the Court of Criminal Appeals or a court of appeals, any appellate court, the disposition date is the date the court issues its opinion.

00;51;21;19 - 00;51;45;07
Lacy Wilber
It is not the mandate. And that's another thing that's a big hurdle. And and we also have instances if, if a case is remanded, you start a brand new, criminal case or a brand new DNN fee claim starting at $0, so you get a whole other fee claim. And you're not just stuck with your initial fee claim and can't do anything else.

00;51;45;07 - 00;51;47;18
Lacy Wilber
It's a brand new fee claim if it goes back down on remand.

00;51;47;23 - 00;52;08;04
Host
Okay, so started in general sessions. We were bound over. I have a fee claim. Yes, with the cap. Then I've been appointed by the criminal court. We've gone through a trial or whatever we did. We have a disposition by the trial court. And we filed a notice for appeal. That is a disposition. That's my fee claim.

00;52;08;04 - 00;52;26;05
Host
There I go up to the Court of Appeals. I get an opinion from them. That is a disposition. That is my third claim for this case. They remanded. I go back to the trial court. That is my fourth fee claim for this. And if I appeal again, that's going to be five. If I go to the Supreme Court, that would be six.

00;52;26;11 - 00;52;44;20
Host
Whatever. Continue. So it's ever building and 180 days is going to apply after each after each of those dispositions. If I'm like, I don't do appellate work or whatever, then I have to be able to withdraw. Though those are the rule is going to say, when I can withdraw, I just can't decide lollygagging, that I'm not going to be the appellate lawyer here.

00;52;44;20 - 00;52;51;26
Host
I need to formally withdraw and I need to be able to, under the rule, meet the qualifications for withdrawing. So you can't just you are in it and you.

00;52;51;26 - 00;52;54;03
Lacy Wilber
Can't just walk away. You have to have an order.

00;52;54;06 - 00;53;10;29
Host
I've gotten busy. Yeah, it's been 3 or 4 years now. My practice is blooming and, I'm dying to do what I need to do. You need to continue with your client. So what about, What about capital cases? Let's talk about those a little bit. And how. What if I wanted to do appointed to work for ACAPital cases?

00;53;11;01 - 00;53;33;24
Lacy Wilber
Okay. I think that it's a phenomenal experience for attorneys to be able to handle capital cases. And, the rule and it's section three, it gives you requirements that you must meet to either be co-counsel or lead counsel. There's a separate hourly rate, but, this is also important in a non-capital case, there's only one attorney to get paid.

00;53;34;00 - 00;53;55;04
Lacy Wilber
So if a judge if you are on like a second degree murder case in circuit or criminal court, and he appoints you and then he appoints another attorney, only one of you is going to get paid. But in capital cases, there are two attorneys. There's lead and then there's co-counsel. And there are certain requirements, as I said. And that's really listed out in great detail in rule 13, section three.

00;53;55;04 - 00;54;16;14
Lacy Wilber
And if you meet those and you want to be on what we call the list for capital cases, we have, I think it's under webmaster at ten courts.gov. We have a form and check the box. And if you check the box it should show you whether you qualify as lead counsel and or and also show you whether you qualify as co-counsel.

00;54;16;14 - 00;54;32;05
Lacy Wilber
And you can also be, qualified for post-conviction. So those are three things. And then you give us that, fill out that form, send it back to us. And I don't know what we do with it from there to get that information to the judges, but I know it's a list that the judges have asked.

00;54;32;06 - 00;54;52;07
Host
For for capital cases. So you mentioned something important there. So I wanted to go back to it. So you mentioned that there's only one attorney in a case. So, what if I find out there is a second attorney has been appointed to a case that I've been appointed to? What should I need to work that out with the judge and make sure that I was getting getting paid?

00;54;52;09 - 00;55;00;10
Lacy Wilber
Hey, I can't give legal advice, but I. I would recommend that you go to the judge and say rule 13 only pays for one attorney in this proceeding or this.

00;55;00;10 - 00;55;14;00
Host
Yeah, especially now when you have a lot of new judges. So make sure that they understand this is only one. And then I will see what is back at my firm. I have associates and partners and and we sort of are working together on that case. How does that billing work there?

00;55;14;02 - 00;55;39;09
Lacy Wilber
It's the qualified attorney that is the only person who can bill for work. So if and rule 13, section four I think specifically says you can't let your paralegal or your assistant charge for any activities time that they do. So if you are working in capital case, you are qualified, you're working in capital case. If you're a paralegal is doing a ton of work, he or she cannot bill the AOC.

00;55;39;09 - 00;55;44;14
Lacy Wilber
For that. You only as the attorney, as the qualified attorney, can submit activities for payment.

00;55;44;21 - 00;55;56;19
Host
In the same thing in a non-capital case. If I am, you know, working on a second degree murder and I have my first year associate do some research for me and do some work on that case that cannot be billed to the EEOC because it has to be my work.

00;55;56;19 - 00;56;17;00
Lacy Wilber
Correct. And I've seen some people, put activities about talked to my mentor. I think it's great that you talk to a mentor, but it really needs to be time spent on the case that you performed. Not not mentor time. But I highly recommend, having a mentor in the system.

00;56;17;02 - 00;56;24;11
Host
Okay. So what what sort of pitfalls have we not touched upon that you think it's important that the attorneys know?

00;56;24;14 - 00;56;44;16
Lacy Wilber
I just hit on it and I'm going to hit on it again. Is 180 days to submit your fee claim in the rule. It's rule 30. In section 685 it has the words last activity. And that's what attorneys latch on to. Last activity. If you read the rule, it's only applicable to dependency and neglect phase two proceedings. That's it.

00;56;44;16 - 00;57;02;28
Lacy Wilber
And so that's why a lot of attorneys are just like, oh, I filed this letter with my I sent a letter to my client and that's the disposition. No, that's not not the disposition. So please, if we learn anything, the biggest pitfall is the 180 day deadline. And I would just ask that that be put out into the universe.

00;57;02;28 - 00;57;20;03
Host
So let's talk a little bit. I mean, I feel like in part ways we've made this sound cumbersome or difficult and like, why would you do this? But tell me, I mean, obviously this is not what your role is, but talk just a little bit about like from an attorney standpoint, I see you I know you practice at the attorney general's office and and you were an amazing attorney.

00;57;20;03 - 00;57;28;16
Host
So talk a little bit about the experience in the good that attorneys can learn from. They can come out of doing indigent work like this.

00;57;28;19 - 00;57;47;00
Lacy Wilber
You know, I get feedback from attorneys all the time, and they're like, I'm not in it for the money. I'm doing it like the people, the attorneys and gals who do dependency and neglect. They're like, I'm doing this for the kids. I'm doing this for the families and people who do it for criminal defendants I like. I'm doing this because it's part of justice and it's how our system works.

00;57;47;00 - 00;58;10;23
Lacy Wilber
And this is very important work. And, it just I think it's great for brand new attorneys to get a feel and, and start learning. And I've seen attorneys go from getting newly appointed in general sessions. And then in two years they're dealing with murder cases. And it's it's important work. It's good work. And I just I'll take this opportunity.

00;58;10;23 - 00;58;31;12
Lacy Wilber
The court really appreciates, attorneys doing indigent work. They understand that this is a thankless job, but I think the people that do it and love it, do it out of a sense of purpose and a sense of pride, of doing something that that matters. And, I appreciate what they do.

00;58;31;14 - 00;58;49;03
Host
Good. And, Amy, tell me a little bit about, the biggest pitfalls. You see, if you mean Amy Lacy has really pitched her 180 days and get your claims in, but from your standpoint is more the the ACAP expert. What are like couple pitfalls that you really wish that you could get across to people that you could avoid?

00;58;49;06 - 00;59;10;04
Amy Park
I want people to remember that you need to redact any personal identifying information from documents that you upload into ACAP. I don't know if we've touched on that here, but that is something that will get your claim returned in person. And people ask me all the time what is personal identifying information. Lacy, do you want to talk about that or it's just.

00;59;10;04 - 00;59;33;13
Lacy Wilber
Stuff you wouldn't want out there. It's your date of birth, your social security number, bank account numbers. We get 12,000 fee claims a month, and we ask that the attorneys redact before they upload. So our auditors can just keep pushing the pedal to the metal and keep going through those 12,000 fee claims a month. And it has helped tremendously, especially with the pendency and neglect proceedings.

00;59;33;20 - 00;59;56;07
Lacy Wilber
Our goal is to process and send fee claims to FDA within 30 days of receipt. We're not always on there. I think we're running at six weeks right now, but that is our goal. And, I think once you give us a little bit of time because we're down to people in the finance division, give us time to fill that and we'll be back to the 30 days.

00;59;56;09 - 00;59;58;13
Host
And we have made the 30 days before since we've.

00;59;58;13 - 00;59;59;00
Lacy Wilber
Oh, yes.

00;59;59;00 - 01;00;02;02
Host
Launch day camp. Yes, we have made.

01;00;02;04 - 01;00;11;19
Lacy Wilber
Yes. I'm proud of that, too. They work really hard. And they they were we were nailing it and then just got some retirements done that we can't fill.

01;00;11;21 - 01;00;13;09
Host
If you want to come work for the AOC.

01;00;13;12 - 01;00;15;03
Lacy Wilber
Yes. If you haven't.

01;00;15;06 - 01;00;18;02
Host
tncourts.gov/employment

01;00;18;03 - 01;00;19;14
Lacy Wilber
We need accountants.

01;00;19;14 - 01;00;20;27
Amy Park
Yes we do.

01;00;21;00 - 01;00;23;29
Host
Well anything else that you really want people to understand?

01;00;24;02 - 01;00;47;01
Amy Park
The only other question I get that I don't think Lacy, touched on is when you're representing a client and you've turned in your claim and disposed, it's over, and he has a probation violation. Do I need to get a new appointment order if I am still representing that client? Or can I use.

01;00;47;03 - 01;00;47;20
Lacy Wilber
That's a great.

01;00;47;25 - 01;00;48;28
Amy Park
Old appointment order.

01;00;49;01 - 01;01;11;11
Lacy Wilber
We ask that you get a brand new appointment order because that will help our auditor see a different date on the appointment order, because the probation violation is going to have the same case number. So what's going to happen is ACAP is going to flag it as a potential duplicate. That's just a label. Any time you use the same case number in more than one fee claim submission, it's going to pop as potential duplicate.

01;01;11;13 - 01;01;38;15
Lacy Wilber
So if you get a new appointment order and it has different dates from that judge, it's going to show our auditor, oh, this is a probation violation. It's a brand new appointment order. It's not a duplicate. It's not interim. It's okay to pay. And so that keeps your fee claim chugging along. And you get people who have 4 or 5 probation violations and you just to help make your claim go through quickly, get a new appointment order on on each of those probation violations for each of your separate fee claims.

01;01;38;16 - 01;01;52;27
Lacy Wilber
That's good point. And the other thing is, how long does it take for don't wait till the last minute to sign up to accept. Don't wait till 180th day to, register if that, because it takes a while to register and get it takes.

01;01;52;27 - 01;02;15;18
Amy Park
Ten business days. But when we get your W9, we submit that to FNA. And that's if there's no problems with your W9, everything's great. We can usually get you your user ID and temporary password within ten days of getting your W9. But you you can go ahead and register even if you're just thinking about I have attorneys call me and say I'm thinking about getting doing some indigent work.

01;02;15;18 - 01;02;31;17
Amy Park
I said, go ahead and get it. I get free can go ahead. I mean, so it's out there and it'll just be there, you know, you might have to update your banking information if you change something like that, but that way you're ready to go and you can get your claims in and you won't have to wait, like Lacy said.

01;02;31;17 - 01;02;37;13
Amy Park
And be Colin going, I'm up against the deadline. You know, I've got to get my accept claim in.

01;02;37;16 - 01;02;39;20
Host
Who else uses a besides attorneys.

01;02;39;23 - 01;02;47;05
Amy Park
Interpreters, investigators, experts, judges use it to approved claims.

01;02;47;07 - 01;03;05;04
Host
We're all are all guardian ad litem as attorneys. It's okay to say yes. So as an attorney and you can go you can choose to be an attorney on a case, and you can also choose to be a guardian ad litem if it's. Yeah, you don't. You have a different type of practice. You're not sure you want to be in a courtroom doing criminal work.

01;03;05;11 - 01;03;20;28
Host
Another way you can be involved is becoming a guardian ad litem. And you would. So Bill through the ATF system. And a lot of the same rules we talked about today would apply. If you want to do a light on this work, and a large chunk of the work that comes through the energy program is going to apply to work.

01;03;20;28 - 01;03;37;17
Host
So that's just another really special program. If if maybe criminal defense is not for you, that being a Guardian ad litem is a different kind of work. And something that attorneys can really also work on, like as a pro bono type of effort. But you're actually getting paid at least.

01;03;37;19 - 01;03;38;08
Lacy Wilber
$50.

01;03;38;08 - 01;03;41;21
Host
An hour, $50 an hour, pay something. Which is.

01;03;41;21 - 01;03;46;27
Amy Park
Better than what we have, the judicial hospitalizations, you know, the claim type also.

01;03;46;29 - 01;03;49;20
Host
So there's other types of work in there besides pure. Yes. Come on.

01;03;49;24 - 01;03;50;10
Amy Park
Oh, yes.

01;03;50;10 - 01;03;56;07
Host
Yes is to and the juvenile courts as well. I know the juvenile courts are very delinquency in cases.

01;03;56;07 - 01;03;58;00
Lacy Wilber
So termination of parental rights.

01;03;58;06 - 01;04;18;23
Host
Right. Usually people who practice in juvenile courts practice in juvenile court. So but there could be an interest you take on the side is you want to do some juvenile work but not necessarily do I think I think people think the the everything was indigent has to do with adult felony or adult. You know, Sonny, actually, General Sessions is a huge part of, of that.

01;04;18;23 - 01;04;39;11
Host
But it's not all adult criminal work. Criminal defense is the guardian ad litem work. There's work in juvenile courts. So there is other programs out there, other that you can sort of get involved and do some public service type of work. Getting paid something, I would say not your full billable rate most likely, but but at least doing something for our state and something for the community.

01;04;39;14 - 01;04;49;25
Lacy Wilber
And I just want to say thank you to these attorneys and guardians, that item I, I appreciate them. And, it's a it's a calling and and I appreciate that they do this for us.

01;04;49;27 - 01;04;54;06
Host
Well, thank you both for joining us on this edition of Tennessee Court Talk.

01;04;54;06 - 01;04;55;03
Lacy Wilber
Thank you, thank you.