Ep. 11 Chancery Court in Tennessee

In this episode, we take a deep dive into chancery courts in Tennessee. Find out the origins of chancery court, what types of cases chancery court can hear and tips for attorneys entering chancery court for the first time.  Guests include Chancellor J.B. Cox of the 17th Judicial District, Chancellor Pam Fleenor of the 11th Judicial District, Chancellor John Rambo of the 1st Judicial District, Chancellor Micheal Moyers of the 6th Judicial District and Chancellor Tony Childress of the 29th Judicial District. 

Produced by Nick Morgan

Transcript

00;00;01;11 - 00;00;23;26
Voice Over
Tennessee. Court Talk is a podcast presented by the Tennessee Supreme Court Administrative Office of the courts. The aim of the podcast is to improve the administration of justice in state courts through education and understanding. The target audience varies and is announced in the beginning of each episode. Welcome to Tennessee Court Talk.

00;00;23;29 - 00;01;04;00
Host
I'm your host, Barbara Peck, and today we are talking about chancery courts in Tennessee. This podcast is intended for all audiences. Our first guest is Chancellor J.B. Cox. He has been a chancellor in the 17th Judicial District since 2000. Our second guest is Chancellor Pam Fleenor. She has been a chancellor in the 11th Judicial District since 2014. Our third guest is Chancellor John Rambo. He has been a chancellor in the First Judicial District since 2013. Our fourth guest is Chancellor Michael Moyers. He has been a chancellor in the sixth Judicial District since 2000. And our fifth guest is Chancellor Tony Childress. He's been a chancellor in the 29th Judicial District since 2008. Welcome to you all. Thank you.

00;01;04;01 - 00;01;04;10
Voice Over
Thank you.

00;01;04;11 - 00;01;08;11
Chancellor Cox
How are you? I don't look like they got a couple of older folk to go with these young chancellors.

00;01;08;14 - 00;01;09;22
Voice Over
Yes, seems that way.

00;01;09;23 - 00;01;26;06
Host
So I was going to start this podcast with a very short, simple definition of what a Chancery court is. But as we are all about to learn, this is not so easy. So first tell me first what Chancery Court is not. Chancellor Cox

00;01;26;08 - 00;01;35;06
Chancellor Cox
Well, generally we hear, equity cases and some specialized cases throughout the state what we normally don't hear are tort cases.

00;01;35;09 - 00;01;36;11
Host
What about criminal cases?

00;01;36;13 - 00;01;38;24
Chancellor Cox
We don't hear criminal cases. Except for interchange.

00;01;38;28 - 00;01;47;16
Host
What about. So tell me a little bit about the interchange between General Sessions Court and Chancery Court. Do you have any sort of formal relationship with General Sessions Court?

00;01;47;17 - 00;01;47;27
Chancellor Cox
No.

00;01;47;28 - 00;01;50;02
Host
So what is a General Sessions court?

00;01;50;04 - 00;02;09;09
Chancellor Cox
A general sessions court. Okay. Well it's our first year court system is a limited jurisdiction court. It has jurisdiction over civil cases up to $25,000 and misdemeanors of criminal and juvenile matters, oftentimes based on jurisdiction and exclusive jurisdiction of unlawful detainer actions.

00;02;09;11 - 00;02;21;16
Host
Okay. So we have the General Sessions Court or the county courts, criminal courts, our criminal courts, General Sessions appeals, go to circuit courts, either civil or criminal, never to chancery courts.

00;02;21;18 - 00;02;29;19
Chancellor Rambo
Counselors are your and your circuit court judges and criminal court judges are your state judges and your sessions judges are county judges.

00;02;29;22 - 00;02;33;22
Chancellor Moyers
And it's also the distinction in courts of record and non non courts of record as well.

00;02;33;28 - 00;02;40;01
Chancellor Cox
I never like to answer a question as a chancellor and absolute, because there's somewhere I know there'll be one exception.

00;02;40;03 - 00;02;40;26
Chancellor Rambo
Juvenile.

00;02;40;28 - 00;02;41;17
Chancellor Cox
Yeah.

00;02;41;20 - 00;03;06;13
Chancellor Childress
That's right. Well, I used to be a general session judge before I became a chancellor. And there are instances in Tennessee where the general sessions judges are actually courts of record. And that's in those general sessions courts that have, jurisdiction over, domestic relations matters. And it used to be some of them had, jurisdiction over worker's compensation matters.

00;03;06;13 - 00;03;18;05
Chancellor Childress
And a lot of times in the rural areas of the state, the general session judge is also the juvenile court judge. And there are cases where the juvenile court judge, is a court of record.

00;03;18;08 - 00;03;33;15
Host
All right. So we're still more confused. Okay. So let's talk a little bit about the differences between chance records and circuit civil courts. So where is there overlapping jurisdiction and where is there a pretty clear distinction? Chancellor Fleenor.

00;03;33;17 - 00;03;43;06
Chancellor Fleenor
There are a lot of overlaps. The distinction is, the term is liquidated damages in tort. What does that mean?

00;03;43;08 - 00;04;23;01
Chancellor Fleenor
Well, generally you get a jury trial if you have a personal injury case, a health care liability case, a slip and fall case, which is a personal injury, those type of cases where what are the damages? Well, it depends. And so you get a right to a jury trial on those. And those cases are exclusive circuit court cases, the cases that are exclusive to Chancery or things such as delinquent tax cases, conservatorships, guardianships, probate and then the the other general civil cases that are overlapped and can be filed domestic can be filed in either circuit or Chancery.

00;04;23;01 - 00;04;28;05
Host
And Chancellor Moyers, tell us a little bit about the dockets in your in your district, how it works.

00;04;28;07 - 00;04;56;01
Chancellor Moyers
Well, in, in our district, right now, I would say that probably better than 50% is domestic cases. And then the remainder is split up between conservatorships and, contract disputes and things like that. So we are a lot of contract cases. We hear, an awful lot of domestic child custody type cases. I do a lot of adoptions and termination and parental rights type cases.

00;04;56;03 - 00;05;27;15
Chancellor Moyers
The biggest distinction to me, when I try to explain very quickly to people who aren't really that, you know, who wouldn't know what a tort was if you tell them is, is basically it's rare that chancellors have jury trials and very common for them to be in circuit court. So, in, in Knox County, the, the circuit courts are a well-oiled machine for the handling of juries, where it throws us all into kind of a tizzy. We have to figure out how to do it every time one comes. So that's that's one working distinction I think that people can understand.

00;05;27;20 - 00;05;32;09
Host
And Chancellor Rambo, how about your docket? What does it look like compared to a civil circuit docket?

00;05;32;10 - 00;06;00;19
Chancellor Rambo
It's similar to Knox County. The vast majority of our cases, and the most time in my courtroom, does focus on domestic and termination of parental rights. The termination cases can be heard in juvenile or circuit. But if the juvenile court does the termination, the adoption portion has to come to either circuit or chancery. So I get that two normally do those before the court starts in the morning.

00;06;00;26 - 00;06;24;05
Chancellor Rambo
Regular 9:00 docket I'll do the adoption starting about 815. And those are done in chambers. And we have a National Adoption Day celebration coming up, the Saturday before Thanksgiving. So we'll have about 20 adoptions that we will do on a special court session on a Saturday. And we'll have firefighters and fire trucks and community activities to go along to celebrate adoptions.

00;06;24;07 - 00;06;32;04
Host
So, Chancellor Cox, you're in a little bit more of a rural district compared to some of the other chancellors that are here. So how does your docket work compared to a civil circuit?

00;06;32;09 - 00;07;08;21
Chancellor Cox
Well, I think there's a lot of overlap that exists in my world. Traditionally in our jurisdiction, the large majority of the divorce and custody cases have migrated to the Chancery Court because the circuit court has been busier with handling the court matters. So there is a migration that way that's just natural, based on our, our culture. And I think that that probably my docket would appear to be a little dis less organized on the first part of the day if you just walked in, than it might be if it was in a more urban setting, or if it was the circuit court docket.

00;07;08;23 - 00;07;32;00
Chancellor Cox
But we both try to be efficient in that circumstance. Other thing that I've thought about, that while we've been going around the room, that might be more, easily identified with the record, is that that you might have a boundary line dispute there that you wouldn't have in circuit court. And when we get to that type of boundary line dispute, you might have a jury of you that's going to be for a jury of less than 12 people.

00;07;32;02 - 00;07;55;00
Chancellor Cox
So there's some uniqueness that relates to the chance record that would have come in that type of, say, any. And I guess one of the interesting things for me that makes it different than the circuit court is that I think that we have an a tendency. I don't know whether this is true in urban setting, but rurally to take all of the more unusual cases, those those things don't fit neatly in a box.

00;07;55;00 - 00;08;12;03
Chancellor Cox
Otherwise, usually come in in the form of a declaratory judgment action to the chance record as opposed to the circuit court. And I think that's probably based more on tradition than actual jurisdiction. But I'm pleased to see it because it makes life more interesting and different than than it would be otherwise.

00;08;12;05 - 00;08;36;08
Chancellor Rambo
I have four counties in my district, and interestingly, from one county, the largest county, half of the domestic cases are filed in Chancery and half in circuit. These are all the same judges, but the smallest county. 90% of domestic cases are filed in Chancery as compared to circuit the other counties. It's about two thirds in Chancery compared to circuit.

00;08;36;11 - 00;08;52;22
Chancellor Rambo
So you have the local attorneys, the county bars. They tend to migrate to chancery or circuit. So 95 counties in the state of Tennessee. What is typical domestic practice in one county before circuit may be chancery in a different county.

00;08;52;24 - 00;09;03;13
Host
So here's the magic question for things like domestic and divorce. Who decides whether it goes to circuit or whether it goes to chancery? The litigants, parties.

00;09;03;16 - 00;09;04;21
Chancellor Cox
The parties, the parties?

00;09;04;21 - 00;09;10;26
Host
So how would a lawyer decide? This is like judge shopping? Do I get to judge shop or judge shopping?

00;09;10;26 - 00;09;38;26
Chancellor Moyers
That's that's that's a that's dangerous way to put it. But I, I do think that different courts have different ways of doing things. In Knox County we have the Fourth Circuit Court, which, is designed specifically to be a family law court. It operates under its own special rules, and some attorneys prefer to come to Knox County, where we have fewer rules that are special to that particular court.

00;09;38;26 - 00;09;47;22
Chancellor Moyers
So it really does depend on on where the litigants and their attorney think that they're probably going to going to have the best chance of success.

00;09;47;23 - 00;10;09;23
Chancellor Rambo
My colleagues like to point out to me that one of the from a circuit judge's perspective on the biggest differences is we appoint our court clerk. The circuit court clerks are elected, every four years. The clerk, Kim Masters, who serve the Chancery Court, are appointed for a six year term. The six years measured from the date of their appointment.

00;10;09;25 - 00;10;15;29
Chancellor Rambo
So we get to select the clerks who work for us and have the advantages and benefits of that.

00;10;16;01 - 00;10;34;22
Host
Okay, so under the Tennessee Constitution, every judicial district has a chancery court and a circuit court. But Tennessee is fairly unique in have you still having circuit or chancery courts at all? Along with Delaware, Mississippi, New Jersey and South Carolina. So what are the origins of Chancery courts? Chancellor Cox

00;10;34;22 - 00;10;56;21
Chancellor Cox
I don't know that I'm, that I'm qualified to go all the way back to England and say where that it started, but, I believe it originated out of England. I can't give you the the, specific king that was there because I'm not that great of a Chancery historian, but I commend you to a TBA article that does a great job of outlining that entire process.

00;10;56;21 - 00;11;23;12
Chancellor Cox
But basically, the there was a king in England that decided that the law, of course, were two burdensome for the people that had to plead before him, and he wanted a court to be his own consciousness, to be able to handle those things that weren't easily handleable handleable in other places. And there was a basis in that Chancery court, and I hope it's still a basis today that there are equitable principles that, inform the lives of the litigants that are before the Chancery Court.

00;11;23;15 - 00;11;42;03
Chancellor Cox
And those principles are used to guide decision making in those cases where the law doesn't provide a remedy. So I think that's the difference. I think you get, a greater opportunity for creativity, for differentiation and remedy, and for uniqueness in the Chancery Court. Maybe I'm just biased because I'm a chancellor, but that's the origin.

00;11;42;06 - 00;11;48;26
Host
So there is this idea of equitable solutions instead of strict law. Do you feel like that still applies today in chancery courts?

00;11;48;28 - 00;12;20;13
Chancellor Cox
Well, I feel like it applies in less degree than it has applied in the past, and that is because there is concurrence of jurisdiction in so many things in our state. But I think that there's still a place for, that type of pleading to be able to help extend the law by way of policy or otherwise. And I think that that and I hope that it never goes away as far as that part of it goes, when you talk about an equitable maximum, that equity dame's done that, which be done, I think that's something as a goal that we ought to aspire to.

00;12;20;16 - 00;12;26;27
Host
And Chancellor Moyers, what do you think about equitable solutions being more likely in Chancery Court than in Circuit court?

00;12;26;27 - 00;12;50;22
Chancellor Moyers
Well, I mean, that's specifically what we have, jurisdiction for in most states, as you mentioned earlier, have combined, the Chancery with the circuit powers. Federal court combines the equity powers and the law powers into one court. We're fairly unique in that we haven't done that. So that that puts the Chancery Court in a position where it can forge solutions that perhaps circuit judges don't have the authority to do.

00;12;50;22 - 00;13;20;09
Chancellor Moyers
And that does give us the opportunity to to do some things, for people that, that maybe some the pure law courts couldn't do. But at the same time, one of the other maxims of equity is that equity follows the law. So we're not free to just toss the green books out and form our own solutions. We do have to work within, the precedent and within statutes. But I think we have a bit more breathing space than the law courts, to form solutions that work for people.

00;13;20;12 - 00;13;22;25
Host
And Chancellor Childress, What about your court?

00;13;22;27 - 00;14;03;02
Chancellor Childress
My docket is similar to, the other four chancellors. It's mostly civil, domestic. I have a lot of civil stuff, a lot of domestic. One thing I have in my district is I have a prison, for two prisons, actually. And I hear a lot of appeals from prison disciplinary boards. Their administrative appeals. And when they've been disciplined, you know, had some of their privileges taken away, they appeal to the Chancery Court, and you just review the record that was created in the disciplinary board of the prison, and you make a determination.

00;14;03;02 - 00;14;25;05
Chancellor Childress
And I don't know if, you know, the four chancellors have a prison or not. I think one of the things going back to the equitable solutions that, chancery courts are better situated and handling than circuit courts is and gentry courts, the majority of the cases that are tried is the the Trier of fact is the judge. We're the ones that make the ultimate decisions.

00;14;25;05 - 00;14;56;28
Chancellor Childress
There's not a jury to make those decisions, and there's no telling how many thousands of trials I've had since I've been a chancellor. And I'll give you an example of formulating a parenting plan for, people who are divorcing who have children. It would be very difficult, as I think, for a jury who, didn't do that type of, work on a consistent basis to, to to look at the factors and try to come up with something like that.

00;14;56;28 - 00;15;12;24
Chancellor Childress
I mean, it's there's there's law involved in that. There are factors involved in that, but that just comes with with experience and knowing what to do. So I know it's not equity, but it's kind of a, a more of a fluid, experience based, at least that's my opinion.

00;15;13;01 - 00;15;21;09
Host
So if I'm looking for a remedy that's not necessarily monetary, then perhaps I should be looking at a change record. Is that correct?

00;15;21;12 - 00;15;22;07
Chancellor Moyers
Yes, yes.

00;15;22;11 - 00;15;47;15
Chancellor Fleenor
Specific performance, for instance, of a contract or real estate, and fraud cases. There's a lot of equitable remedies. We can rescind a contract and we can create constructive trust and, give the money to where it should be the rightful owners. So there are more options.

00;15;47;17 - 00;16;11;13
Chancellor Childress
And and circuit judges can do this as well. I mean, they have the jurisdiction to do it. It just seems that since the creation of our state, that type of, those types of cases have gone to the how many of us are there in the state, 33, 33 chancellors of the state, 33 chancellors serve about 6.7 million people. So there's not very many of us.

00;16;11;15 - 00;16;17;04
Host
So are the, the court procedures and court rules different in Chancery Court than they are in circuit court?

00;16;17;06 - 00;16;42;14
Chancellor Rambo
It depends on the it depends on the district. Some districts have separate Chancery Court rules. Many districts have uniform rules for the same. Local rules would apply to both courts. So you just as a practitioner, you have to know your judicial district and consult your local rules to see if chancery has different. And there may be some, even if there the same supplemental rules.

00;16;42;17 - 00;16;50;21
Chancellor Rambo
All times chancellors have probate and I'll have separate probate rules, or maybe rules that apply to a delinquent tax suit or something. That might be a little different.

00;16;50;25 - 00;17;01;18
Chancellor Childress
If your question was, did the Tennessee Rules of Civil Procedure and the Tennessee Rules of Evidence to apply to, cases that are tried or filed in Chancery court? The answer is yes. They do apply to us.

00;17;01;18 - 00;17;26;28
Chancellor Moyers
But but I think he's hit on something. Chancellor Rambo hit on something very, It's important. And that is that, when you're operating, the first thing you need to do is see if the local court has, local rules. A chancellor, once remarked that that if somebody wanted to hide something, the best place to put it is in the local rules of court, because nobody ever looks at them.

00;17;26;28 - 00;17;54;02
Chancellor Moyers
And and that's really true. And you can be seriously ambushed if you go into a court like Knox County, where we have circuit court rule, local rules, we have Chancery court, local rules, the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals or Fourth Circuit Court, sure has its own set of, fairly intricate rules. And you have to know those, so just knowing the rules of procedure, may get you in trouble if you're operating in a court that has its own local rules.

00;17;54;05 - 00;18;05;17
Chancellor Moyers
Westlaw, is a place where you can go, under the state rules and find which counties have local rules. And generally they have them published on Westlaw. So you can look at those.

00;18;05;19 - 00;18;14;05
Chancellor Childress
And I'll add to that, the Tennessee, the administrative office of the court website has all of the, local rules of the judicial districts in it as well.

00;18;14;07 - 00;18;32;01
Chancellor Cox
And I don't want get people to get the impression that because Chancery courts different, that we're not collegial and that we're not cooperative. I think all the chancellors across the state go to great lengths to try to cooperate with the circuit bench, as well as all litigants, to try to make sure that access to justice is taken care of.

00;18;32;03 - 00;18;59;06
Chancellor Cox
But I think each in each locale situations can be different, and therefore local rules probably should be different. I know that I approach Conservatorships in my judicial district in a way different than they do in Hamilton County, where chance to flamers, the Chancellor different than I do in Dyersburg, where Tony Childress is the chancellor. So I make my folks watch a video before they take on that fiduciary responsibility.

00;18;59;06 - 00;19;16;25
Chancellor Cox
That's fairly unique within the state, but I found it to be important. Other other chancellors, according to their local rules, will be they'll hand out a pamphlet or something along those lines. But I guess I'm trying to reiterate the point of no, your no, your court. No, your local. No, your local rules. I think that is probably the best formula.

00;19;16;26 - 00;19;44;28
Chancellor Rambo
I think that's especially important if you're going to practice in probate, because that really varies from even county to county. Within a judicial district. You may have, clerk and masters who were attorney practicing attorneys before they became clerk of master and the chancellor. And that district may give them more authority, which they can do here. A lot of the probate matters in other counties. The Chancellor may handle it all.

00;19;45;00 - 00;19;55;02
Chancellor Cox
And in other counties the probate matters either still with the county court or with a specialized court, depending on how big the the area is.

00;19;55;05 - 00;20;21;23
Chancellor Fleenor
In my in my district, the 11th judicial District, which is a single county district. Hamilton. More of the domestic cases are filed in circuit rather than chancery. I think that's the same in Davidson County as well. And it's just by choice. But when we don't have it, one of the prisons in our locale. But we do hear a lot of a review of administrative agency decisions.

00;20;21;25 - 00;20;27;14
Chancellor Fleenor
Beer board, tax board, unemployment compensation.

00;20;27;17 - 00;20;29;02
Chancellor Childress
Appeals from school boards.

00;20;29;04 - 00;20;54;09
Chancellor Fleenor
School board. I'm trying to think in a condemnation zone. We also hear it right down to your boards condemnation cases. We hear, if the demolition cases, properties been condemned by the city and the in the owner wants to fill that, we those are the top of cases. So I think one thing about Chancery is it hears a lot of the property cases.

00;20;54;09 - 00;21;03;01
Chancellor Fleenor
Chancellors have jurisdiction over all the property within their county. So let's talk a little bit about the appeals. But what percentage of your docket is made up of appeals?

00;21;03;03 - 00;21;08;15
Chancellor Cox
If you're talking about an administrative review, probably less than 5% in a year.

00;21;08;20 - 00;21;17;13
Host
But all the administrative appeals in your district go to the Chancery Court or some go to circuit.

00;21;17;16 - 00;21;19;11
Chancellor Childress
I think they all have to.

00;21;19;14 - 00;21;33;22
Chancellor Moyers
It is interesting to me because I used before I became a chancellor, I was in the county attorney's office, and I did lots and lots of administrative appeals from various boards that I represented. But since I've been a chancellor, I've seen very few of those cases, surprisingly few.

00;21;33;24 - 00;21;44;06
Host
And you talked a little bit about how there's a separate clerk. So if you're an attorney, a filing your papers, you're going to be filed. Some are different in Chancery Court than they are in circuit court. So talk about that for a second.

00;21;44;09 - 00;22;08;28
Chancellor Cox
Well, from my perspective, it's just a matter of where you gravitate to in the type of case that you're filing. So as you begin the practice of law, you learn what type of case that you're bringing to which court, which most appropriately fits there, and then you find your way, whether it's in a single county and in two different floors on a different building, or in multi counties, it's usually the same just on a smaller, smaller scale.

00;22;08;28 - 00;22;28;05
Chancellor Cox
As far as that, that part of it goes. I always stress in my clerk and masters that we want to try to be a place to be an inviting, place to to have cases filed and have an opportunity to interact very well with the public, whether they be represented by people or pro se in that circumstance.

00;22;28;08 - 00;22;45;17
Chancellor Cox
And all of my clerking masters understand that which I think is a place of influence that the circuit judge might not enjoy to the same extent, I think. I think that's something that you learn as you begin to practice law. I know that was true for me when I started. It's just a matter of trying to make sure you understood which place that your case went.

00;22;45;17 - 00;22;56;04
Chancellor Cox
If you had an opportunity to be an advocate for your client to make a choice out of two choices, you did the best job for your client. And otherwise it's just a matter of getting to know everybody, which I think is vitally important.

00;22;56;08 - 00;23;25;03
Chancellor Rambo
One of the things that I was first told by the partner in law firm that hired me, first day he took me to the clerk's office, and the advice that I was given as a green lawyer was, get to know your court clerks, at least 1 or 2 in there that you can ask questions. And sometimes you may have a lawsuit you've not handled before, but you could ask him, have you ever seen one of these cases before?

00;23;25;05 - 00;23;42;26
Chancellor Rambo
They'll tell you, and they can pull the file and you can look at it and learn from what other attorneys have done. So his statement and I don't think it's as dramatic as that, that, a clerk can make or break you, but they can certainly be very helpful to a new attorney or any attorney.

00;23;42;29 - 00;24;03;18
Chancellor Childress
But just because we appoint them doesn't mean their their job is any different than the circuit court clerks or general citizens clerks or juvenile court clerks. But when I appoint my clerks and masters, one thing I tell them I stress on them is you do not get to decide what types of cases can be filed and change your court.

00;24;03;20 - 00;24;30;08
Chancellor Childress
If somebody brings something in in there and you know it is wrong, you still file that case because it's my job. Well, to determine whether or not they could and not to give people help. That's not why I'm telling them that. Because the reason I tell him that is they could be wrong at some point in time and, turn somebody away when it was proper. And that's, that's our jobs.

00;24;30;10 - 00;24;39;19
Host
So let's talk about that for a second. Have any of you ever had a case overturned on appeal because it was in Chancery Court versus circuit, civil circuit or vice versa?

00;24;39;22 - 00;24;45;28
Chancellor Cox
I don't I'd like to claim that I acted that much extra judicially, but I don't believe that I have.

00;24;46;04 - 00;25;01;24
Chancellor Childress
We actually have I think we have an obligation to determine whether or not we have subject matter jurisdiction over over matters. And and if we don't find that we do not have subject matter jurisdiction, there's a statute that says where to transfer to the proper court.

00;25;01;26 - 00;25;04;18
Chancellor Rambo
And we've all done that many times.

00;25;04;20 - 00;25;14;14
Host
But there's never been a case appealed for that reason. So usually the chancellors are getting it right there, transferring that we've never had a case that it's like, oh, the Chancellor sitting I've heard this, that this case, this case can't happen over.

00;25;14;18 - 00;25;32;27
Chancellor Childress
Well, there might be some cases where everybody believed always that that you had jurisdiction to do this, and then you get a new appellate, a new opinion from the appellate court that says, oh, by the way, y'all no longer have jurisdiction to do this.

00;25;33;02 - 00;25;54;18
Chancellor Moyers
There's always interesting close calls, like where somebody will bring a case that has 2 or 3 different causes of action and at some point, all of the causes of action that aren't taught, there might be a mixed, you know, equity in tort cases. And at some point, all the equity causes of action get dismissed. And so all the remains is the tort cause of action.

00;25;54;18 - 00;26;13;10
Chancellor Moyers
And it's always been a real interesting question to me whether or not we retain jurisdiction. I think the law is that we do, but it does seem rather odd to me that you can create subject matter and diction in Chancery Court by bringing even a frivolous equity claim attached to a tort claim like that. That would not be a very scrupulous way of doing business.

00;26;13;10 - 00;26;21;19
Chancellor Moyers
But I think it's a it's something that can be done if we retain jurisdiction even after the equity, causes of action have been dismissed.

00;26;21;24 - 00;26;31;29
Host
So let's talk about the equitable, remedies that are available. So tell me about either the most unique or the most interesting remedy you've ever ordered.

00;26;32;02 - 00;26;55;07
Chancellor Fleenor
Accountings or ordered often in Chancery Court, which is a reference to a special master to actually go through the debits and credits between the parties and render an accounting, which then the court would review to determine whether they were damages.

00;26;55;10 - 00;27;27;16
Chancellor Childress
I think most remedies nowadays are more of a blend of equity and law, kind of like the parenting plans that I was talking about. I mean, it's no the law is typically cut and dry on most things, but on issues where it involves children and things like that. I think it's a blend of these are the law factors you're supposed to look at, but then you apply, you know, what's in the best interest of the child. Well, that to me, that's kind of an equitable remedy.

00;27;27;18 - 00;27;50;18
Chancellor Rambo
I think of, property sales, which we have a lot of and, I may direct a real estate person to go to the farm and lay out options on how it could be divided. And, and when I order my sell, I may say, let's sell this parcel. This parcel, let's group them or let's sell the entire farm.

00;27;50;20 - 00;28;07;16
Chancellor Rambo
And really, the judge is creating potential remedies there to try to maximize the value to the sale. There's no legal true principle guiding that. It's just what's the equitable thing to do to make the most value for that property when it's being sold?

00;28;07;19 - 00;28;22;15
Host
And have you who here is ahead a jury trial? And if you had a jury trial, oh, everybody's raising their hand. So you do have jury trials in Chancery Court every now and then. So tell me about when you have a jury trial versus when you just refer it over to circuit, circuit Court and Chancery.

00;28;22;15 - 00;28;50;28
Chancellor Rambo
We end up having to write a lot of our, jury instructions. And I use the interrogatory method, where I try to get my questions down to where the jury is answering factual questions and trying to get them to answer yes and no to simplify. Because when it's all said and done, the Chancellor still applies the law, but is bound by the factual determinations of issues by the jury.

00;28;51;01 - 00;29;21;15
Chancellor Rambo
So you can't pick up the model pattern jury instructions and flip to the chancery section because there's not one. So I charge the attorneys with making the first drafts of those. I try to get them to agree or have a joint set of instructions and interrogatories, but it's when it's all said and done, the Chancellor is responsible for what he or she puts in front of that jury to decide in the jury instructions.

00;29;21;17 - 00;29;28;01
Chancellor Childress
There's that there's actually a type of case, and I get the type of is escaping my mind.

00;29;28;03 - 00;29;33;06
Chancellor Moyers
I think consumer protection. Well, some cases call for juries. And I think.

00;29;33;09 - 00;29;58;14
Chancellor Childress
And there's another where, let's say you were let go at work because of maybe you were with child or your age discrimination cases. You had discrimination cases. You are entitled to a jury trial and chancery, but you're not entitled to a jury trial in circuit. And I did not know that until last week, when I had one transfer from Circuit to Chantry and I. And it's a tort case.

00;29;58;16 - 00;30;22;00
Chancellor Cox
I like the flexibility we have and Chancery Court in the uniqueness that we have in Chancery Court. I've had, I had a boundary line dispute that was that I tried, about this time last year, and my lawyers came to me through the middle and said, you know, judge, we want to try this in front of six as opposed to 12, which is almost unheard of, honestly.

00;30;22;00 - 00;30;58;08
Chancellor Cox
But I made that agreement and we decided to go forward and do that. And so far so good. Although we have motions pending on that about what hasn't been done since the verdict was was high end. And I think that when you apply a jury principle to a jury of you, a case where someone's landlocked or there's many use that's been cut off by the county or and those, those particular members of the jury panel are, basically asked to take the shortest, most practical way from point A to point B to create an, access, to a piece of property.

00;30;58;08 - 00;31;36;27
Chancellor Cox
That's a very unique way that a jury is applied in Chancery Core. And I may differ some from some of these other folks. I have a past prosecutorial background. So I'm going to try to start out by with, with some of those pattern instructions and going to make them fit for, for a jury. But one of the interesting things about doing it on our side is that if you have a uniqueness of remedy that's being asked for, in, in whatever context, it usually comes out in the jury instructions, which has a way of making its way into the law over time, if you're upheld in that case, goes on appeal.

00;31;36;27 - 00;32;01;18
Chancellor Cox
So and part of this is how proactive are you going to be as a judge? I've had one jury, a view that I was actually the bus driver. So we went out to to the particular location to force a way out for, to from a road to, over a piece of property. And we did that while I was, I was just available that day, and we didn't have enough other personnel, so we did.

00;32;01;18 - 00;32;05;27
Chancellor Childress
I didn't know your judicial district kind had a bus. Well, you know, I'm on saying absolutely.

00;32;05;27 - 00;32;27;27
Chancellor Cox
You need to be educated. That well. I think we got loan from a church. But anyway, that's a whole different discussion. But that part I it's very, very interesting and unique to us. And I think those remedies are, are neat. And the way they come out, I'm sort of like, chance Rambo. I don't necessarily use the interrogatory method, but I force the attorneys in that situation to think about the instructions.

00;32;27;27 - 00;32;48;07
Chancellor Cox
I have to have them to me ahead of time in advance for us to be able to hash them out and to take care of them before they actually go in front of the jury. I think on the civil side, it cuts down the the possibility of having jury at hearings. And for young lawyers, that's probably a good place to cut your teeth, because you're going to have less of those and you might have done criminal defense work.

00;32;48;09 - 00;32;51;11
Chancellor Cox
So I think those are important things to talk about.

00;32;51;16 - 00;33;03;03
Chancellor Rambo
And the jury instructions are really tailored to the particular cause of action. And there's so many in Chancery, it's like you're inventing the will each time you have a jury demand.

00;33;03;05 - 00;33;13;12
Chancellor Childress
I ask the attorneys to submit proposed jury instructions to me. Then I include in my order. If you do not that you're waiving any objections to the other side just to spur them on.

00;33;13;16 - 00;33;22;00
Host
So besides the jury instructions, is there any other way an attorney should prepare differently for a trial in Chancery Court versus circuit court?

00;33;22;03 - 00;33;46;23
Chancellor Moyers
I would say yes, very much so, because trying a case in front of a judge, at least as representative in style, I've had lawyers describe my court as a hot court. Because I get very interactive with the attorneys. For me, that's fun. So, you know, if you're trying a case in front of a jury, jury is just going to sit there and listen.

00;33;46;25 - 00;34;10;29
Chancellor Moyers
But if you're trying to case in front of me, you can pretty much bet that it's going to be more like an appellate court experience. And I'm going to be questioning you about every aspect of your case. So, I think that lawyers that are practicing in front of, in bench trials, really need to be prepared to defend their positions, probably much more so than than they would be required to do in a jury trial.

00;34;10;29 - 00;34;36;09
Chancellor Rambo
I've experienced a lot of attorneys because it's a bench trial. We'll just skip the opening statement, skip the closing argument. I'd like to hear the opening statement and the closing argument. So my advice to the young practitioner, new practitioner or any practitioner is be prepared. Give your opening statement, closing argument. I think you're entitled to do that.

00;34;36;13 - 00;34;44;00
Chancellor Rambo
But, don't assume that the judge does not want to hear your thoughts. And that's the best time to give your thoughts on the case.

00;34;44;06 - 00;35;16;02
Chancellor Childress
99.9% of the trials. I have a bench trial. If I have 1000 trials, I'll have 999 bench trials. So to prepare for that, I would give the advice that probably the case you're trying is not the first case of that particular type that the judge has seen has gone through and really, really focus on the the facts and the factors that we have to consider in a lot of these actual equitable cases.

00;35;16;04 - 00;35;36;14
Chancellor Childress
And I'll say this if you're questioning someone and you're trying to get something in that's kind of inflammatory, if the if the judge has said his or her pencil down and they're not taking notes, they're probably not very interested in that, and you move on to something else.

00;35;36;16 - 00;36;01;07
Chancellor Cox
And I'll maybe I'm taking a contrarian position here, but I think that as we do this job, sitting on the bench side, that there are times that we need to be educated or reeducated. So I would tell a young lawyer, never lose an opportunity to persuade the judge, if if the bar in your area generally doesn't put in briefs to the court beforehand, might be a good idea to put in a brief to the court.

00;36;01;09 - 00;36;26;01
Chancellor Cox
If you're in the Chancery Court and you're looking for a remedy, that you can't find a case supported by circuit court, and you still want that remedy, you might be able to try to spend some extra time to try to persuade that court that what you're seeking is the right thing to do, the equitable thing to do. So you'd give more attention to persuasive authority and more attention to those equitable principles in the way that you argued the case before the court.

00;36;26;03 - 00;36;48;26
Chancellor Cox
I will agree that there are times when I know that I don't need argument in domestic relations cases, because I've heard those a significant amount of time, but especially for young attorneys in that situation, that that waiver precludes you an opportunity to try to persuade the judge and you might have thought of something that came in, the proof that he or she didn't think of.

00;36;48;28 - 00;36;53;13
Chancellor Cox
And so I think that's important. Along those lines.

00;36;53;16 - 00;37;17;03
Chancellor Rambo
And I would add for the young, the newer attorneys listen to what the judge is saying, because a lot of times they are that judge is communicating to you what he or she wants to hear. So you may have your formula that I'm going to ask this and I'm going to concentrate on this in the trial. But the judges are already telling you this is the part I'm interested in.

00;37;17;03 - 00;37;45;26
Chancellor Rambo
If you take the time and listen to what the judge says. We spent some time today talking about 15 factors on determining a parenting plan, and I see this a lot in a domestic case. There's questions about alimony, and there's a lot of different factors on determining that. I just mentioned 15 factors on, parenting plan. And then there's, factors relating to the division of property and deaths.

00;37;45;28 - 00;38;11;27
Chancellor Rambo
But we will spend two thirds of the trial talking about who is at fault, which is one factor out of maybe 30 different factors that we're looking at. So don't necessarily play to your client who just wants to talk about the breakdown of the marriage. Remember, you got a responsibility to take care of the whole case. And that's where the good lawyer will cover the various factors.

00;38;11;27 - 00;38;50;04
Chancellor Childress
Well, that was that was kind of what I was trying to get at when I said the judge is probably heard a thousand of these types of cases get to the important it's all important. It's all important. Get to the important part. And when you're doing like domestic work or any type of case where the statute says you've got to consider every one of these factors, it might be good to just get you an outline and ask questions about every one of those factors, because I spent a lot of my time in a trial and domestic cases cleaning up things that people just didn't ask, okay, there's another child out of here from another marriage.

00;38;50;04 - 00;39;06;13
Chancellor Childress
What's that child's name? What's their date of birth? Things I got to put in there, asking people about. Okay, how much is your the health insurance premium you spend on, for the children? I mean, those are all very important things. Even though they're not the that the hot things that people sometimes want to talk about.

00;39;06;16 - 00;39;22;29
Chancellor Cox
And that communication can be verbal or non verbal from the court. I mean, if chance of Rambo's telling you let's move on. That's verbal communication. If, Chancellor Moyers put his pencil down and he quit the appellate review process, it goes on to his court, it's probably time to move to the next thing.

00;39;23;02 - 00;39;34;17
Chancellor Childress
And as a judge, you don't want to try the case for the attorney or you do. You want to do anything that may, be perceived as trying to embarrass them, or we know.

00;39;34;19 - 00;39;35;22
Chancellor Fleenor
One side versus the other.

00;39;36;04 - 00;40;07;04
Chancellor Childress
Yes, but there but there are things that we have to know. And if I was talking to a young attorney, I'd say they certainly do that. And I have a young attorneys come to me. I say, what's the most important thing that you look for in every case as I look for service and notice, because if you don't have service or the complaint or notice of the hearing, your days over with, those are very small things to, or easy things to accomplish.

00;40;07;10 - 00;40;13;26
Chancellor Childress
Very small things. I think they're often overlooked, or at least I said a lot that, well, at least when you come in front of me, I'll shut you now.

00;40;14;01 - 00;40;18;04
Host
So how many but what percentage of your cases are pro se litigants?

00;40;18;06 - 00;40;49;25
Chancellor Childress
It's becoming since the Tennessee Supreme Court initiated the Access to justice program, it has become more and more and more. It first started out with, uncontested divorces where you had no children and and you carried on your property, and now they have, expanded it to include, uncontested divorces with, with, with children. Now, the key is uncontested.

00;40;49;27 - 00;41;17;06
Chancellor Childress
Well, when they file those, forms that they're can get off the AOC’s says as website opens up a court case. That doesn’t mean they're uncontested. So a lot of times we're the ones having to sort through all of this stuff and walk a fine line between, not well, we do not practice law, but trying to find a way to tell people what they need to do without us, getting into that realm of practicing law.

00;41;17;09 - 00;41;26;13
Chancellor Childress
But to answer your question. I figured mine's about 35%, and it's getting more into more different things and a pro se adoption about a year ago.

00;41;26;15 - 00;41;48;22
Chancellor Cox
I think it's I think it's probably a larger percentage in rural areas than in urban areas, at least at this point. I concur with you. I think that my, my docket relative to pro se has grown substantially, especially since the introduction of the of the AOC forms that also include children. There are some days and it's 30% of my.

00;41;48;22 - 00;41;57;07
Chancellor Childress
Docket and on the order, but motor protection cases, I would say 95% of those are pro se.

00;41;57;10 - 00;41;58;12
Chancellor Cox
Yes, almost all of them.

00;41;58;12 - 00;42;08;10
Chancellor Childress
And I don't have a problem with pro say people that they have the right to do it. It's just that it just it takes more and more and more time.

00;42;08;10 - 00;42;17;06
Host
Let's talk about why did you become chancellors, what was what was appealing about Chancery Court versus being a circuit court judge or being a different type of judge? Why? Why a chancellor?

00;42;17;06 - 00;42;37;20
Chancellor Fleenor
Well, in my case, it was because it is different cases. The year that I ran, there was a chancery Court position open in a circuit court position of, and both judges were retiring, and I did not care to go run for circuit court judge because in my district that's mostly domestic cases.

00;42;37;22 - 00;42;58;12
Chancellor Fleenor
And in, Chancery Court was it's different every day. It is the variety, the breadth and scope of the jurisdiction is so much broader. And that's and that's fun to me. And I was practicing in it almost exclusively, and it felt like I developed an expertise. So that was an easy choice.

00;42;58;14 - 00;42;59;07
Host
Chancellor Moyers

00;42;59;15 - 00;43;24;08
Chancellor Moyers
Same for me. I determined very early in my career that this is what I wanted to do. And I think in my case, it was primarily because I wanted to be the guy making the decisions. I didn't want to be riding heard over juries every day. I wanted to be the person who who heard the facts and the evidence and made the decision. And that appealed to me and still. Does,

00;43;24;10 - 00;43;25;08
Host
Chancellor Childers.

00;43;25;11 - 00;43;49;28
Chancellor Childress
Some days I'm trying to still figure out why I wanted to be a chancellor. But all kidding aside, before I was a chancellor, as general sessions judge and juvenile court judge, before I was, I had I worked for the Tennessee Court of Appeals as their staff attorney for six years. I was in my background. Was civil work, in the mystic work in those areas?

00;43;50;01 - 00;44;15;24
Chancellor Childress
Because on the even on the general sessions, Partridge a huge part of general sessions, the civil and since at least in the judicial district I'm in the circuit court handles more most of the criminal cases, I get maybe 1 or 2% of them. And the change record handles probably 99% of the civil work. That's that's where I wanted to be. As on the civil side.

00;44;16;00 - 00;44;42;02
Chancellor Rambo
I was a county attorney before I became judge, and I had not thought chancery versus circuit. I wasn't really been thinking about being a judge, but my predecessor retired and I had some attorneys that called me and said, you should consider this. And I was at that point in my career that if I was going to be a judge, it seemed like that was the time to shift gears as far as my legal career.

00;44;42;05 - 00;44;54;25
Chancellor Rambo
And so if it had been Circuit Judge, that had retired, I probably would have applied for that. So there's nothing glorious in how I went about it. It was the I would have been happy with either position.

00;44;54;27 - 00;45;16;08
Chancellor Cox
I'm sort of like, Chancellor Rambo. And in that situation, I was presented with the what I believed to be the the best opportunity for me to be able to go on to the bench at the time that I ran. And so I ran against a, an appointee who had had a limited amount of experience at the time that that I ran.

00;45;16;10 - 00;45;38;04
Chancellor Cox
I can't I come from a sort of varied background, even being from the same hometown for, all that time. So for me, it was a matter of if I was going to get an opportunity that this was when the opportunity presented itself. At the time, it was, I don't know that everybody thought, like, I thought that I was going to be able to prevail in that circumstance.

00;45;38;04 - 00;45;56;03
Chancellor Cox
And at the time that I came on the Chancery bench, I was probably the youngest or next the youngest in the state for coming on to the bench. And so I've been there a good long time. And I'm finally to the age where, maybe look like the judge folks picture when I think about, that from the outside.

00;45;56;03 - 00;46;21;21
Chancellor Cox
But it's been, you know, thank you, Tony, I appreciate it. It's been a very, very interesting experience. But I will say that that one of the jurists that I valued the most, in my early practice of law, was Chancellor Carr. He took the time to mentor young lawyer, took the time to be able to be accessible.

00;46;21;24 - 00;46;51;14
Chancellor Cox
Was interested in all that, Chancery court meant by that? I mean the types of cases that are normally there. And all the interesting other cases that are unique was absolutely always curious and interested in expanding his knowledge of the law. And he was a great people person and he ran a great court. So in that aspect, my my mentor from before the time that I was on the chancery, Bates provided the type of inspiration.

00;46;51;14 - 00;47;32;24
Chancellor Cox
And I think that you would need to aspire to be a chancellor. There are days that I miss trying criminal cases because I start out as an assistant district attorney. So when I do that, if there's a conflict, I interchange over and I try those cases. So it's a good opportunity that still exists for me. But I do feel like over time that I'm in the place now that I'm supposed to be, in terms of being able to be the decision maker and to deal with interesting and unique remedies, and to be able to handle most anything that comes from a bench perspective. And I'm pleased to be able to be in that in that spot, even though it didn't come from always aspiring to be the Chancellor.

00;47;32;26 - 00;48;08;06
Chancellor Rambo
I would throw in that one thing that I enjoy, particularly about being a state court judge. And I'm in a multi county district, so I'm in three, sometimes four counties every week. And I enjoy traveling the circuit, going to different courthouses, interacting with different members of the bar. And to some extent, each community has its own flavor. And that's I enjoy going to the smaller counties. My off main office is in my largest county, but I look forward to driving the circuit.

00;48;08;08 - 00;48;32;23
Chancellor Childress
And one thing about being a chancellor, and I think the multi-county districts, as opposed to the single county districts, is if you every now and then you will get a criminal case, you'll get a tort case. It was in circuit court. There's probably not you'll get a juvenile court appeal because the circuit judge had a conflict, and there's not another circuit judge to hear it.

00;48;32;23 - 00;49;01;13
Chancellor Childress
You'll get a general session to appeal. You have the opportunity to hear your traditional Chancery stuff, but you also get the opportunity to hear just about anything that comes down the pike at some point in time. And, you know, sometimes I, I get a, I get a boundary line dispute and I'm like, oh boy, I got a boundary line. And I'm excited because it's something different. Instead of just your regular domestic stuff or you get a, oh, I get to hear this juvenile appeal. I could hear there's General Sessions appeal.

00;49;01;14 - 00;49;04;26
Chancellor Cox
You never you never used to think you were going to be that excited about a boundary line speech.

00;49;04;27 - 00;49;07;13
Chancellor Childress
I never did, but I am now.

00;49;07;15 - 00;49;11;28
Host
Well, thank you everyone for joining us on this edition of Tennessee Court Talk. Thank you for having us.

00;49;11;29 - 00;49;12;15
Chancellor Childress
Thank you, thank.

00;49;12;15 - 00;49;13;22
Chancellor Cox
You, thank you very much.